Two Subs, Six Setups | Killer Low End For Portable DJ's and Small Concerts
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- Опубліковано 4 лип 2024
- ►► Get my audio math survival spreadsheet found in my audio toolkit:
www.producedbymkc.com/audioto...
00:00 - Intro
02:22 - 1 - Stacked center, omni pattern
04:45 - 2 - Side by side center, omni pattern
06:12 - 3 - Half wavelength crossover center, figure 8 pattern
09:39 - 4 - Left/Right spaced subs
12:43 - 5 - Inline gradient cardioid center
15:27 - 6 - Inverted gradient stack center
New lessons... Subs in the middle and raise my tops higher. Thank you for this.
I had a left and right set up about 50 feet apart in the church. I use map to predict and saw all the cancellations and the flower petals. So we relocate them underneath the stage a half wave length apart My crossover frequency is 125 Hz I have two subs in the middle touching each other then I’ll spread the others to wavelength apart when I did the prediction again, it look like a gigantic pear. And the energy that the audience get now is amazing so I agree with all this that you’re trying to teach and I appreciate you thank you so much.😊
You're very welcome!
@@MichaelCurtisAudio I wish I can show you pictures of the way it came out.
@@noelbulls8628 My email address is on my website. Feel free to drop me a line there.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio ok thanks
You are officially my sound tutor.
This was so helpful, I am just setting up dual subs and ive realised that the cardioid option is the , one I should adopt , as I'm in a brewery and there is a row of tanks behind the stage area, I have built the subs inside two large rum barrels and was going to put them both on the same cradle after watching this they need to be on separate cradles to really increase my options, thank you for explaining things so clearly
I've been using half the subs I used to use and getting the same or even more power thanks to these useful tips. Thanks for the great work and for the metric spreadsheet, very needed for my portuguese workflow. (feet here are only for wearing shoes :D)
You are very welcome. And about time I got around to creating a metric version ; ) I'm glad that's been helpful to you.
Somebody please get this guy a bottle of water. lol
Had a gig with the same subs I have now in the "traditional" LR setup and kept hearing/feeling the alleys/valleys and this video completely visualized what was happening. Going to be using a center cluster with them this next time around and I'm very much looking forward to my walk around, with and without people.
Let me know what you find!
Thank you so much for this tutorial. Wonderfully explained! It helps out greatly for the live shows!
Love your content and the passion towards making your video 😊
Thank you so much!
Great video. An additional option I use is to stack the two subs on the left side at our church where the drums and bass are located. Adds a bit of stage location to the sound in the room and when people think the the low end is too loud they can move to the right side 🙂 I happen to be using D & B Audiotechnik cardioid subs which greatly simplifies things greatly
Great idea. And yes, natively cardioid enclosures definitely help simplify things.
love the content. The spreadsheet shilling does get a little tiresome, but these videos are pure gold. I've probably learned more watching the videos you've made in the past week than I have about sound in months. I'm a 18 year old currently attending college while trying to get more into the event production game. Currently doing events with fraternities and the local area. I'm in charge of sound for our business, so learning more and more about the physics of sound and knowing more about speakers is super helpful.
Glad you're enjoying the videos! I'll have some more varied free resources coming soon. The spreadsheet is helpful to folks, but you're right that I mention it in a large percentage of my videos.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio the spreadsheet is helpful, font listen to this fool
dude these are phenomenal tutorials thank you for making em!
I can't get enough of these videos
Thanks a ton, Nick!
Thanks mate, a few videos ago (the one about column speakers one) I asked you which one would you prefer: one double driver sub or two single driver sub, as I was building a small PA. I followed you advise and ended up with two single driver subs. This video is gold for me, I will definitely experiment with the different configurations. Also thanks for the metric version of the spreadsheet!
You're very welcome!
There is literally nothing too nerdy or in the weeds for me. Please always elaborate! This has been an excellent intro to setting up smaller systems man!
You're very welcome!
Thanks - It shows that you can make big low-end improvements with the most basic setup, without buying more stuff.
Exactly! Even with just two subs you have a lot more control than you would think.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio … so would I do this same center coupling with my two passive Yorkville LS1208 scoops because normally I would do the left & right set up with a qsc 15” on each one inside big ballrooms and it would sound pretty good to me I’ve never center coupled my big scoop’s before but I always couple my powered EV Etx’s and they always hit so much harder!
Thank you Brother, very helpful and great information, keep it up
Good stuff and well explained.
Bro , i felt like i learn so much waw thank man keep up the great work killer video
So glad i just found you and subscribed, i've been running audio for many years but just with a simple point source system and some home made sub cabinets with a dbx driverack and passive amps (ALL CROWN MACRO K2 and XTI, but i have never really learned the intricate math behind why some shows work and some suck. i dunno if i can do much with just a basic driverack or learn more on how to position my stuff.
You can do plenty with the just the driverack! That unit is more gear towards aligning and tuning crossovers within a single enclosure, not necessarily a full rig, but it can work for that minus any serious output delay times.
thx for this very nice explanation!
Hi Michael, great video! Can you please consider doing one talking about portable column array speakers for portable dj's as well? Myself and many people I've seen online have doubts in relation to many aspects: they advertise a very good horizontal range like 120º, they almost always pack a small sub like 10, 12 inch (do those pump out enough spl?) and some systems like the maui 28 have built in processors for cardiod setups (would that help dj's), would they be good in a outside scenario. But also they advertise that they can be combined in pairs, so what distance from one another should they be? can we use a different sub with them?
Hope you find the time!
i have 2 12s in my volvo station wagon. with the back seats down its like a tiny empty room. the bass was best with them both next to each other in the back left corner, instead of one in each corner. only a two foot movement made a big difference.
Great Sub stuff!
Thank you!
great info here.....valuable...👍👍
Thank you!
Great love it, have you done any test comparisons with folded horn configurations?
Super helpful video Michael! But I had a question. I'm working with four subwoofers now, a dual 18 and two 18 inch single subs. I've been placing them in the middle at my events, will it have a similar effect to the two subs being coupled in the middle? I would love some advice about how to place these things for maximum output to the crowd! :)
cool channel bro :)) keep it coming!! thanks for everything :))
You got it!
Thank you very much!
You got it!
Great video sound advice no pun intended. Lol congratulations on the new borne
I'll take it : ) Thank you so much, he's about to turn 1 this weekend.
Wow great, thanks!
Thank you so much!
You are amazing I really appreciate all that you put out there. I'm trying to set up a inverted gradient stack. If your soundboard/subs don't have a built in delay, what kind of hardware would you use if software isn't an option?
Thank you for the kind words, Jefferey!
I'd check out the AHM-16 from Allen & Heath.
Hi Michael, great video, just one quick question. I am a mobile DJ, do a lot of school dances, large gyms, I bring 2 Alto 18" subs, I used to put them LR but now I put them together on one side and I have 2 Alto 15" main speakers on top of them. Sound difference from when they were LR of my DJ table is way better. My question is since the students are usually right on top of my table asking for requests, i really cannot set them up cardioid so is this the best set up using the 2 18" subs and 2 15" mains, or should I consider some other arrangement for large gyms? Thanks for the info, I am a lifetime subscriber...
mobile DJ here. This is amazing. Super helpful.
You're welcome!
Thank your for your amazing explanations !!! I have a little question : is it possible to used 2* 15" Sub combined with 1 or 2* 18" Sub ?? I would love a video explaining the advantages and disadvantages =)
I would like this answer too!! I’m in the exact same situation
Again, great video. Love using the cardioid setup especially indoor. But. Does this consider ground coupling effect or is it for a system that’s flown?
In this model I didn't have the floor "turned on" as a boundary to have in the predictions. However, you'll still see similar results both with a flown and groundstacked inline cardioid setup.
Thank you so much for your videos! Is there a way in this software that you use, or can you recommend other software, for plotting subwoofer effectiveness in the way that you do here but for inside environments? I.e. the addition of walls and how the reflection from them might cause another dimension of phase cancellation. Thanks again!!
There's the full version of EASE, but it's pretty expensive.
Michael. So, as a low end sound guy, could you show what these positions would look like if I had 2 of the QSC cardioid subs… what do the power alleys etc look like if each sub is a self contained cardioid sub? I’ve always seen the dual 12” cardioid sub set L/R with the poles screwed into the sub and the top perched up there… it seems that this use might keep bass off the stage, but create the same alleys for the audience. So good for noise control on stage, but similar issues as single subs spaced L/R for the audience…is this correct. THANK YOU for this content, very educational!
Love the content. The visuals are helpful and I probably need to brush up on my math. I'm in a room similar to your drawings. Our church meets in a 60'X90' room. We have two Subs and four k12.2. How would you place these for best coverage? Any thoughts on drive-racks?
I'd check out these videos for insight on best speaker coverage placement. Long story short, divide the audience in half and have each K12.2 fire down the middle of its own zone. Fly the speakers if you can. If not, get their trim height as high as possible. I'd do two flown center subs, inline gradient cardioid if possible:
ua-cam.com/video/OeaMtRvIysM/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/pNkhxnFNUNU/v-deo.html
And here's some affordable drive systems/DSPS to look at: www.thomannmusic.com/the_tracks_compressors_gates_de-esser.html
This is fantastic! For your personal preference doing smaller shows (400-600 people outdoors) what is normally your go-to setup out of these 6?
Thanks, Evan! I'd say it would probably be the center side-by-side setup. With just two subs having them as closely coupled as possible gets the maximum possible SPL out of the rig. It also gives the widest coverage pattern, which is often needed in outdoor setups.
If the stage doesn't have a hard front and the subs I have are efficient (not needing to drive them hard to get the desired SPL), then I'll do an inline gradient seutp.
Thanks for the great info! I'm curious - indoors how much is the room likely to lessen the alleys & valleys effect with LR subs? An event I go to always sets them up like that! (Hopefully with this extra info I might be able in influence how they do things...)
Every room is going to behave a bit different, but I'd say in general it would raise the subwoofer rating up a "letter grade". So, if the low end was a C- with a LR sub rig outdoors, having it inside would raise it up to a B-. But, the tradeoff may not be worth it if the venue is super reverberant.
All that being said, I prefer center sub setups (if the coverage and logisitcs make sense for that gig) inside OR outside.
Hi Michael! I'm using 2 L'Acoustics SB28 and I wonder how do I space them for a third set up (half wavelength crossover center). Is it the same as you've said or there is another way to do it because each sub has 2 drivers in it?
Hi Michael! How do I align phase of side tops with center sub cluster? Should I just put measuring mic in the center of venue and align tops one by one?
Can any two subs be cardoid? Or does the sub have to be a specific type to be cardioid? Is it just an arrangement matter? Also, does the furthest rear sub have to be inverted and delayed? What if we don't invert nor delay it? Would it still kinda work
Thanks a lot Michael.
I wanna know if its possible to have two different xover points for the rear sub and the front facing sub
Really helpful video, has given me pleanty of ideas for next gig. Just a quick question if I’m trying to utilise a inline gradient cardioid setup. How do I add delay to one of the subs. I’m pretty new to this so might seem like an obvious question 😂. But I’m using 2x Mackie 18s subs and 2 x thump 15a loudspeakers. Would it involve adding delay through a mixer ???
You would need some sort of DSP to do that. You could use the internal prossesing power of an digital mixing console (if that's what you're using) or an external DSP/Speaker management system (like the Behringer Ultradrive or a DBX DriveRack).
If you habe any further questions, don't hesitate to ask, I or the rest of the comunity will try our best to answer...
I hope this helps :)
Great tutorial thank you, i would like to ask, lately djs and performers prefer to have subs on stage for monitoring purposes, how does having subs on stage affect the cardiod behaviour setup of the FOH subs?
As long as there's no other boundaries close to the subs besides the stage floor I don't see a problem with it.
Hi Michael, I tried different inverted gradient stack configs in Ease Focus 3 and they all seemed to disagree with your delay calculations: They all ended up looking like a super cardiod pattern (in your video 16:43 as well there was a little blob projecting backwards). To mathematically investigate the issue I plotted the sinwewaves radiating from the subs in a math software. My result is that we have two options, a) to go for max summation in the front, or b) to go for max cancelation in tha back. a) is achieved by calculating the delay as described in your video (adding the horizontal driver displacement as a delay the bottom sub) b) is achieved by subtracting the horizontal driver's displacement from the half-cycle of the crossover frequency. In case of 100 Hz that would be 5ms minus the driver displacement in ms). Mathematically we can solve this set of equations for a and b to be true, so we have both max summaton in the front and max cancelation in the back. For this to work, both the horizontal driver displacement and the delay added to the bottom inverted sub have to be equivalent to a quater cycle (of the crossover frequency). For 100Hz that is 2.5ms (or about 86cm) displacement and delay.
Thanks for your video!
so I have 2 Qsc k12.2 tops and 2 Qsc KS212C subs and i always place them left and right of my dj set up (1 top & 1 bottom) so is it better to put both of my tops on my left & right and both subs facing forward together/side by side in front of me?
Great video. Would you consider a dual sub (2 subs in one box) the same as the side by side configuration?
There's probably some slight differences, but I'd say you can expect much of the same behavior.
Great video, thanks! Probably, aligning the rear sub more precisely in the inverted gradient array would yield to better results. Also, lowering its level a little bit might help
Yes, always verify in the field since the wraparound path from the front sub to the rear will change depending on cabinet depth, etc.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thanks. I'm currently working on a design for a church where the subs can't be in front of the stage, so I'm considering putting them under it and use a cardioid array in conjunction with bass absorption and detailed dimension of this cavity they would be in. It's a hard one
@@Labaris Cardioid arrays unfortunately fall apart when under a stage. There's too many reflections for the careful conditions of cancellation to occur : /.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio I figured that was probably the case, that's why I was thinking about designing finely-tuned bass absorbers inside the cavity (the space under the stage). But really, it doesn't seem to be a good idea actually. Thank you for your insights!
Can you do a video about DJ Line array systems like the Bose L1 pro 16. Since the subs are part of the line array I usually put one on each side of my DJ booth which is only about 6-8 long. By doing this am I causing alleys on the dance floor? Should I put the two speakers in front of my close together and have them slanted out or will the high end speakers in the system cancel themselves out because they are too close?
In your case I would still put the two columns separate. I'd probably toe your speakers outward some more since the high frequency coverage is very wide. But I also understand you want as much of the energy to go to the dance floor and not other places in the room.
With your subs about 6-8ft apart you are getting some narrowing of the low end coverage, for sure.
I have watched this video a bunch of times. it is gold , thank you!
I had a question. for the dual center, side by side Omni pattern and the half wavelength setups, do the same principles apply at a higher Crossover frequency. for example would this still apply for a 180hz cross over with FOH tops on each side of the room/stage and the subs in the middle? and would that cross over point (180hz) be too harsh? the cross over point is common on a popular Column array vendor kit. the cross over point is set at factory and can't be adjusted, but wonder if separating the tops from the subs and setting them up side by side would help focus the low end on the dance floor. thanks in advance. I've been going through your other videos, very cool stuff
Yes, same principles would apply! But do keep in mind that we want the same tonality everywhere. So, you could focus the sub on the dance floor, but you don't want folks standing away from the dance floor to only hear top end, then hear a big tonality change when they walk on the floor.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thank you, that make sense.
Hey Michael great video! One question though, at 13:54 you talk about delaying the rear speaker. My brain says delay the front speaker so the sound waves travel together.
Could you explain this!
Cheers from the UK!
Question I have two rcf hd32's and two rcf 702's which i place in front of the stage Thinking of purchasing another 702 sub is it best to position a sub under the hd32 tops and a sub in the middle:
15 "subs are to big to carry
Half wavelength crossover center with JBL SRX828SP (dual 18). Assuming an 80hz crossover, lets call a half wavelength 7ft... where physically would I be measuring from on dual 18s, the center of the box?
The boxes are 47.5" wide, so if placing 2 subs center-stage with 7-foot spacing from their centers, that would mean roughly 3-foot gaps between the left and right sub stacks is the max before the pattern starts to break apart, with an 80hz crossover. Am I on?
Biggest thing I get hung up on with these spacing talks, is there's never mention on where to place the tape measure, especially with wide dual-18" subs.
Hi Michael - Do you have any thoughts on reversing the polarity of one of the subwoofers in the Left/Right setup? Seems to collapse 2 valleys down into one down the center between the subs? Like is this an appropriate way to steer the power valley away from FOH assuming you get separate DSP/phase alignment for each of the 2 subs?
I would "steer" away from using that as a fix : ). It doesn't negate the power alley/valley problem, it just changes where it is.
A quick addition - changing polarity on one sub does change the relative phase relationship to the other sub, but that's solving a TIMING issue with the wrong tool - a polarity inversion does not change the timing of the sound waves, just flips their values from negative to positive and vice versa.
does it matter if you stack the subs on top of each other or put them side by side for those combinations? I assume not, as the manuals for subs with cardioid mode usually say you can do either. Is there any difference in the sound coming out?
Stacking vs side by side will affect both the amount of cancellation in the rear and the directionality of the array. If you draw a line from the center of the front facing woofer to the rear facing woofer that is the "direction" the cancellation and summation will go.
I've seen you mention the KW181s in other questions. I have a total of 6. Would it be better to do three stacks of two, or spread them in a single row across the front? Or, would it be better to do a 1/2 wavelength setup and space them all out the entire width of the stage, (which runs anywhere from 24'-32'. (I just acquired the third pair, and up to now have been just doing L-R stacked, but have felt I should be getting a lot more out of them).
It depends on your audience shape, but give this other video of mine a watch and see if it answers your question - ua-cam.com/video/Q4ny703u-ks/v-deo.html
Please report back if you have any other further clarifications!
hey Michael thank's for this channel...pertaining to center in-line gradient cardiod set-up, is the connection coming from mono signal and daisy chain the other? or have a separate connection for each of this sub?
Great question. If the subs themselves have built in DSP (can do a polarity inversion, add delay), then you can run a mono signal to the first sub, then daisy chain. Then just apply the processing in the subs themselves.
If the subs don't have any processing, you need to drive them separately and use an external DSP or your console output processing to apply the polarity inversion and delay to the rear sub.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thank you and appreciate your answer, we have an active sub with built in DSP...excited to try this on sunday at church. 😃
love the videos
I wish you could do some for domestic home Cinema subwoofer positions and EQ
For now I'm focusing on live setups, but a lot of these principles still transfer. I'd check out Jesco Lohan at Acoustics Insider for small room acoustics and speaker setups.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio I had hoped that was the case so its good to know the videos will translate to a domestic setup 😀
Hey Michael, do you know a brand called wharfedale pro? Any chance you could do a video or review on thier delta range of pro speakers?
Thanks for your video, it's very helpful and well explained. I have two 18" subs. I like the side by side center placement. However, I think it would be an eyesore to have both subs in the center of the stage. How about placing both subs to the right side of the stage instead? I'm aware that I would lose some energy on the left side. But I think that I can make up that difference with more overall gain to both subs. What do you think?
It honestly depends on how wide your stage is. If it's narrow, then you could get away with that. If it's wide it'd be too much of a discrepancy between left and right, so in that situation I'd opt for left and right subs.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Thanks for your response. I'm trying to create a DJ Dance Hotspot (55' wide X 40' deep) in a 21K sq. ft. pavilion. So ya, it's huge! Here's a short video of the venue in case you want to take a look: ua-cam.com/video/CRs0vwkmbhE/v-deo.html. I'm planning to place the subs below the 2' high stage, 4' in front of the Tops , about 30' apart. The Tops will be 10' high on the stage, tilted down 15 degrees. My Subs don't have the option to delay the signal, as far as I know (EV ELX 200 SP18), can this 4' difference between the Tops & subs cause an issue or can I get away with this? By the way, to make this more complicated, the venue has serious reverb issues (that's why I'm tilting the tops). Any suggestions are welcome. Again, thanks!
So I plan on running a half wavelength crossover @100hz.. dual ls801p and ef500p yorkvilles on sticks .. I plan on using your tuning methods, but most of your videos you talk about taking measurements on axis with the mains. I'm little confused as what to do when it comes time to measure the subs. Do I turn off the opposing main and lower the sub outputs -6db like in the attaway video.. But that was also a L/R setup with no coupling, so I'm unsure.
Great question! If my subs are on the ground I usually end up setting the level of my subs about 50-75% of the way back in the audience. Then I time align my subs on-axis with the mains (center sub or LR setup) 75% of the way back in the audience plane.
If working with rear ported bass reflex, how would you calculate using an inline gradient or a stacked gradient deployment? Generally, how would rear ported subs react as a whole in any configuration?
Two questions:
- If you stack subs, is there any positive or negative impact (like more pressure in the chest, ... of the audience)? You did do a 2x2 monostack in your other video.
- What if you do angle sub arrays/stacks towards a center point in the audience? :) I often see that in small clubs with L/R stacks.
Thank you! :)
If you stack the subs you will slightly narrow the vertical coverage pattern, which could focus the low frequencies a bit more towards your audience. This affect is much greater with a larger stack of flown subs.
Angling the subs if you're not doing a cardioid setup or working with a sub with built in cardioid directionality will not change the energy in the center. Low frequencies radiate out omnidirectionally from subs.
If I wanted to space them 1/2 wavelength apart for the crossover frequency, where do I measure? Is it from the right side of one to the right side of the other or the empty space between the subs? I assume you would want to measure from the middle of one sub to the middle of the other, so an easy way to do that is just measure from the right or left side of one to the same side of the other.
Great question. You're right in that you would measure from the center of the woofer to the center of the other woofer, but that would be the same as measuring from the left side of one sub to the left side of the other sub, as long as they're the same model.
Great tutorial as always!
is there a way to improve subwoofer performance in very small and untreated rooms?
I tried cardio in a small room but wasn´t very convinced by the result...
any ideas? :)
cheers
Small rooms are super tough even when you do have treatment. I know enough to be dangerous concerning small room/studio acoustics, but I would punt to Jesco Lohan at Acoustics Insider for a true expert opinion.
Here is his channel - www.youtube.com/@AcousticsInsider
Thank you for the fast response!
i will have look. :)
With the inverted gradient stack, do I actually need to enable polarity switch on the matrix going to the subs which is firing backwards? Because in my mind, putting up the sub in the other direction already Switches phase…
It's intuitive to think that by reversing the direction of the speaker that it would change the resulting polarity, but it doesn't. Sound radiates (mostly) spherically from a sub with the same phase relationship in all directions.
Do a little demo and measure it for yourself!
It will be amazing if u can have guide for small room listening room for multisubs
If I put 4 single 18" subwoofers in the center at a distance of 1.5 m or 2 m between them, will they connect?
I enjoyed this video, however, 1. I Wish you would have briefly shown the different frequencies with the last setup. 2. Whenever I've attempted to explain these concepts to any Mobile DJ or sound engineer at that level, I've received nothing but ridicule, ego, and insults on my intellect, and "it doesn't matter."
Hello, Sir.
I'm working with a left-right setup for my subs. My prediction in Ease focus reveals a better result if one of the sub's polarity is inverted. I also intend to loop the subs i.e. from amp to left sub then left sub looped to right sub. How do I implement the polarity inversion in this case?
I am considering inverting the input to the right sub (the other end of the loop cable coming from the left sub). Will this help me achieve the polarity inversion?
The polarity inversion may improve things at one frequency, but I assure you the broadband result still means plenty of comb filtering. The only way to fix this issue is to decrease displacement between the subs.
Given 4 double 18 subs, and dsp available to accomplish delaying the rear, what’s the most efficient use case for an outdoor show. I’m leaning toward inline gradient. When would I point the four of them in toward each other? (You did that on an outdoor show and your A2 questioned the logic.)
Sounds like a great plan to me! I'm assuming the audience seating is wide given that it's outdoors.
nice clip man! Tx! Looking to aply this info in my mobile Dj setup. tx!
Man I Love your content. Just wondering do you have a video for B22 subwoofer Cardiod setup? Thank you God bless
Thank you! Is the B22 a specific model or type of cardioid setup?
@@MichaelCurtisAudio we have a D&B B22 Bandpass subs at church and I'm planning setup like a cardiod setup. Is it possible?
Thanks for the organized information. Can you clarify how dual 18 subs play into this?
What happens when they are side by side giving you four 18s somewhat evenly spaced (space between speakers in the box and end to end spacing between boxes).
Where do you measure from when doing a half wavelength setup?
Thanks in advance!
Hey, Michael. The big difference with the dual 18" cabs vs single 18" is that they're twice as wide, therefore creating a wider baffle and line length. So, placing two dual 18" cabs next to each other would have roughly the same width as four single 18" cabs. The same principles apply - a long line of speakers creates a narrower pattern.
As far as measuring the half wavelength, as long as you choose the same reference point on each enclosure you'll be in good shape. It could be the center of the box, the center of one of the woofers, or the sides of the enclosure, just as long as the boxes are identical and you measure from a consistent point.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Great information. You have a new subscriber. 👍 Thank you!
Can someone help...can I setup the cardioid with both subs on the ground next to each other but pointing in opposite direction or do they need to be stacked vertically?
Thanks Michael - Can you do inverted gradient side by side? Or must it stack?
You can do it side by side, but it'll change the directionality of the array. If you draw a straight line from the center of the woofer of the rear sub to the center of the woofer of the front sub that's the direction the sound will move.
You may have said this specifically somewhere already, but just so I’m super clear, are your physical measurements for distances between drivers always a measurement from the very center of the speaker cone? (Aka NOT measuring from the edge of a cabinet to the edge of the next cabinet). Like when you’re measuring two subs spaced apart side to side. If yes, then for dual 18 cabs, do you just measure from the center of the whole enclosure/center between the two speakers and get the same results?
Thank you!
You've got it right! It doesn't necessarily have to be the center of the cab, but the same reference point on each speaker. So, if you're measuring from the far left edge of one sub, measure to the far left edge of the next sub. Make sense?
Yes that totally makes sense, thanks a bunch!
Could you do an analysis over what the coverage be if subwoofers were up against a brick wall? Also, what would the response be if the subs were about 15 or 20 feet out in front of a brick wall?
Great questions, John. You can think of any hard reflective surface like a brick wall like an audio mirror. Any sound going into it will be reflected back at the same angle of incidence.
Given that, it's usually best to have your subs as close as possible to boundaries or at least 10ft/3m away so you can avoid speaker boundary interference (cancellations that happen at the speaker due to the reflections).
Hi Michael,
With de the 5th and 6th setup, with which sub do you time aligning the main ?
Great question! It would be from the acoustic center of each array. So on setup 5 that would be the front sub, on setup six that would be the front facing sub.
That's a Sensitive mike 5:40 🤫
Mike, Need to know what program/app you might recommend in place of MAPP 3D that will allow you to insert speaker parameters to develop a similar map. I downloaded the program it worked great, but unable to use the available speakers for the small venue I was in.
I would love to be able to generate a map of how things are right now, and see how it would look after moving the speaker placements and angles.
I'd check out EASE Focus 3 by AFMG.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Thanks, I actually downloaded it and trying to work through it. Unfortunately I tried downloading the Data direct from JBL, but Ease is saying the file with the speaker parameters is incompatible.
I may end up doing it all manually. Already took space measurements, and using Pink noise have dB levels from 10 Points as well as images of the frequency spectrum from those 10 points.
So while I may not see the exact changes by trying to move things around I can see issues in the current setup.
Hello, Michael! I have a strange situation: when I use aux fed subs, I have poor/low volume from my subs . This happens when kick drum is playing-subs are peaking but the sound is low. But when I play music from laptop, subs work loud and much better! Could you please help with your advice? What could it be? Thank you so much! Victor.
Hello Michael! Can I put inverted stacked subs pattern horizontal? I meant two subs on the floor, one of them facing to the front and one to the back. Thanks!
Absolutely, but the directionality of the sub will change. If you draw a line from the center of the rear woofer to the front woofer, that will be the direction of the wavefront, so it'll basically shift off axis 45° or so.
the thing I wonder the most about sub setups is how much max spl for most of audience is lost for each setup compared to just putting the 2 together to get that full 6db increase because a lot of times I need to get The most max spl out of my RCF Dual 18”’s because I don’t have enough
In the inline gradient cardioid setup, why is the speaker closer to the stage being delayed, and not the one closer to the audience? Is this because the intention is to have the wavefronts sum (and cancel, being out of phase) at the stage position?
Great question! This video goes in more depth on that - ua-cam.com/video/e90v1NVT7bQ/v-deo.html
You got the first half of the question right. This recipe creates cancellation in the back, but we do also get summation in the front. The rear sub arrives a half wavelength late at the sub's center frequency (this is dependent on your spacing), but is now polarity inverted, so it flips the comb filter upside-down and has summation throughout the sub range. You just have to be careful and not space them too far apart or the comb filter will bandpass your subs too much. Farther spacing is for systems with lower crossover frequencies.
Hey! Great content, it is some really deeb knowledge you are showing off here . Have you got any idea how to set up subs, if it was 4 subs, but 2 different types? FX I got 2 RCF tts28 and 2 tts 18... the 28 being a double 18".
Thx in advance
Are you able to measure their phase response and see that they're similar?
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Hi again, they are similar, they are ment to be stacket, so there are one 28 and one 18. Also I have connected a controller, so I can configure then pretty much as I want😊
@@Revo5308 Nice! As long as they "play nice" together they can function as similar building blocks. I've got a video that walks you through seven different setups with four subs - ua-cam.com/video/Q4ny703u-ks/v-deo.html
Still the best!
Thank you!
Let's say there is no stage and the band is playing on a concrete pad. Is it still best to do a center sub array if they don't mind seeing a sub or two in the center or is LR the best way to go to avoid looking awkward?
What is the best space to a hard wall for a 2 Subwoofer Cardiod - inverted gradient stack? If they are both away from the wall, the best space is as close as possible. But How is the best space, if one is facing to the wall?
I could probably dig and dig and find the answer but I’m just gonna ask you!
With 2 QSC KW181s , is the in-line option going to work? They have normal (cardioid?) and reverse mode, but only two filter settings, normal and deep. What do you think is the best set up? I imagine many people use these two subs . Thanks for all your help and time
Are you asking about the KS118's or the KW181's? The "normal" and "reverse" modes on the KW181 refer to the polarity, not necessarily a cardioid DSP preset like the KS118.
I've done the inline approach on the KW181's many times! I've had good luck with a four foot spacing between drivers.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio ok got it thank you so much! Yes the older KW181s . Cheers
I'm not able to center cluster my two QSC KS118's (cardioid) because I have a video DJ booth. Is it OK if I put them on one side? My entire setup is no wider than 12 feet. Also, is it OK to cover the subs with a cloth covering to help conceal them?
Impressive! Question: if you only have 2 sub in a home theater 20’x30x20 (WLH) what would be the response if you put the subs diagonally? That is front right, back left.
You would get some serious power alleys and valleys with them being spread so far apart.
Very nice video. Still need one thing though :). In your very nice sims. The rear wall is none existing (looks mostly like free space). But in most cases there will only be something like 1-3 meters from rear wall to subs. This must have a massive effect as these could also cancel out some wavelengths?
Great point, Philip! Yes, in the "real world" your acoustic environment will have a massive effect on your low end. I should have mentioned that as a caveat, but my intention with this video was start with the "building blocks" of these setups, then throw them into other scenarios/limitations in later videos.
I definitely should have mentioned as well that hard stage fronts are a no-go when using cardioid setups in front of them.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Interesting! can you give a short explanation why a cardioid setup infront of a wall/hard stage front is a no-go?
is it because the cancellation "mirrors" to the front and messes with my summed signal?
My first thought was that it will improve the sound because of reduced reflections...
thank you in advance!
@@mongotoffelLP You can think of any hard boundary near a speaker creating a "mirror image" reflection at the angle of incidence of the original wave bouncing off that surface. With cardioid, even though you're getting less energy going rearward, the reflection messes with the specific parameters needed to create that rear cancellation. The energy bouncing off the back wall behind it adds more energy at a different time and negates some of the cancellation effects.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Great! I look very much forwards to seeing the next episode :) I have a lot of truble with cancelation from walls.
I have 4 subs of same brand/model in outdoor setting. Would I deploy them in line and how far apart as vertical stacking not possible
Give this video a watch and let me know if you have any questions - ua-cam.com/video/Q4ny703u-ks/v-deo.html
I've been doing end fire cardioid almost always if I have two subs available... it gives even sound across audience and cleans up the stage and has very low setup and processing requirements.
To do something more fancy one'd need thee or more subs and more processing :)
I hate spaced pair subs that are very common...
Don’t mean to spam but is there any reason to do this for home theater if you want to excite less room modes at say 52hz?
Quick question... in the linear gradient setup .. does each sub have to be at the same height... example could the rear sub be on stage and the front sub be on the ground (24 inch height stage)?
For best results they would be in the same horizontal plane. The setup you mentioned "could" work, but the energy would be steered into the floor in front of the sub, then bounce to the listener.
Gotcha..you! @@MichaelCurtisAudio