My Buddy gets over 150k miles on a rebuild on 2 engines 1776. 350k to be exact with NO THERMOSTATS or FLAPS...Nothing just regular maintenance, spin on filter, 2 coolers stock DH and Full flow aluminum case Counterweighed China crank.. ( Oil temp is almost too cool for that in the winter). He even pulls a trailer a lot of the time. to go camping which he does a LOT...Drives from CA to AZ in the night in the summer near 100 deg Average rebuild time in the old days with ALL THEMOSTATS in place or without them Was 70k to 100k. Almost never over 100k. this was on 1600 engines. 40hp would go longer because they had no power. Usually they upgraded to 1600. With or without thermostats they lasted about the same time All stock....All other tin on the engine and proper original cooling parts.
If you want to tell me it makes a difference Please explain WHY does his engine with NO THERMOSTATS or FLAPS last that long.. He didnt even need a rebuild because of oil pressure or oil use. Just did it because he thought it was time.
@@Mikefngarage I don't know. I would have to see it, see how it was driven, and disassemble it at a minimum before I could render any opinion. In science, we call that an anomaly and in this case n=1 so my confidence interval is very low.
@@benkanobe7500 my guess is you have never ran without a thermostat to see if there is any difference. I have ran with and without. honestly cant tell any difference on a engine rebuild with or without. We had some that we dropped it boiling water that would not open.....Yes they are vacuum sealed and fail safe to open.....explain why that happened. I cant. it just did.
I have always had them fitted as I live in the UK (Not California climate) and I trust the millions of Pounds / Dollars VW spent on the research and development of their engines :)
Yea several of those old books had some info that we found irrelevant like the bulletin for the cool tin not working. That was in one of those books. I dont remember which one.
@@Mikefngarage Actually no; always lived in tropical and subtropical climates. And you are also right about the cool tin; we used that starting in the 1980’s and it works fine. I don’t think Gene Berg was the one talking about that VW factory service bulletin on the cool tin saying that the original deflector plates work better?
@@vayabroder729 Yea I dont think he was the one who said that. He says factory parts were the best cooling. I dont see him actually saying that the engine needed the thermostat either. Especially when he was an advocate of the Merged exhaust. which would make running a thermostat impossible. Says without thermostat veins causes 15-18% more engine wear.....Never seen that ever. We were getting near or just over 100k miles on stock rebuilds. and factory was about the same. without thermostats. The one thing we agree on is aftermarket coolers put over the fan hole.....That was a real problem. restricts air flow.
You're right Mike... I never run them either. In addition, I think that some people have even cooked their motors by not using the doghouse with the directional vanes (just a pressurized box) and also by omitting the tin under the cylinders.
It's funny. I have never EVER seen one of the German style fail stuck. Only time I could say one stuck wasn't the tstat, it was stuck flaps ...due to mis installation. The non fail safe Mexican tstats are the units that got the reputation for failing closed. I've driven mine on mid 80 degree days here in New England and the stat isn't more than half open, and engine isn't overly hot. Personally unless I lived where you do i would never be without. Plus, it's nice to have heat on these 40s something mornings haha.
my heater works great when its 40 out without the thermostat. I even used to go skiing in my vw and the heater worked fine no thermostat. and under 40 degrees took no real time to warm up. Ran fine....usually running hot is the biggest issue on a VW.
I run no thermostat, but I agree: the old bellows ones usually stick open and the newer Mexican ones fail closed and cause overheating, I'd never use the Mexican spring type for that reason.
@@martinharris5017 I dont recall verry well any of that I just recall the boss using a propane torch on the bellows and them not moving and going well we know what happened here. Haven't run thermostats since the 80s. Which was a very long time ago. But I do remember seeing many of them stuck shut and engine cooked.
@@martinharris5017 If I recall correctly was over 30 years ago but for some reason has stuck in my head. It was an original early 70s beetle came in the shop with a stuck Therm. Engine had never been out had around 70 or 80k miles on it and Left with a new engine Came in for maintenance I don't think we ever rebuilt it again. Ran probably another 10 years or 100k miles that is what we saw often after a car came in for a rebuild there.
Thank you! Too many experts say you need the thermostat. I’ve never had the overheating problem on the Midwest, but I don’t drive mine in the winter. I even use the old cast aluminum aftermarket fan shroud with a late model fan. Never an overheating problem!
Some guys here have never seen them. Because so many cars dont have them. Been running without them longer than I can remember. I only remember the boss taking a propane torch to the therm and it not moving. and a car that came in the shop smelled like burt oil. black dipstick for a rebuild. Then he told me about why this happened and how many of these he had seen.
We had American thermostats failing closed. They would never open so they need to get hot to open. would take heat and not open. I remember back in the day the boss using a propane torch and seeing if it was working. wasnt a Mexican car either.
I'm going with VW engineers and Berg, who had 40 years running a world wide enterprise. I use the thermostats and adjust them per the Bentley manual. Worked for me and my customers for 33 years. 150000 miles ????😂😂😂😂😂
some more than that. but I have data for that Bug.....and it pulls a trailer 600-800lbs. He drove it year round too. never had a thermostat. Changed the engine only because it had that many miles. still ran great. Now that engine is in a bus at more than 50k miles. no issues. Today with modern muti weight oils ( and yes they work fine even some synthetics. Not the old mobile 1) that theory is old news IMO. just plain outdated. Back then they were using straight weight oil as well. So yea that would cause engine wear.....not the therm. it was the oil.
@@Mikefngarage I actually did have an oil problem,when graphite oil 1st came out. A customer used it in his fresh 2110 on his second oil change (1000 miles). The engine started to run real hot but he caught it soon enough. The graphite coated the entire inside of the engine and stopped heat transfer. A complete disassembly, cleaning and reassembly solved the problem. ( Yeah it had thermostat and flaps) , went about 38000 miles and the bus got t boned. Don't know what happened to the engine.
I agree Mike. I removed all the linkage and flaps along with the thermostat in my 1961 panel buses 40hp stale air engine, as the bus will never be driven in anything but warm summer temperatures. I do not trust these 62 year old thermostats and linkages to operate correctly anymore, and l'm not gonna burn up my engine because if it failing. Your videos are very knowledgeable and entertaining as well.
Hi Mike, Interesting theme even though I have a water-cooled VW T3 a 1982 model Diesel engine so I don't should have that kind of issue, But here in here in Norway those who drive the early Aircooled need I suppose the Thermostat. always great to see your different approaches to make great themes of different ways of solving problems👍🏻. Thanks for sharing🙏🏻🇺🇸.🇳🇴🇳🇱🤗🍀Greetings.Hubertus
I’ve used a thermostat on my motor that is 30 years old but live in the uk where for 6 months of the year it never gets above 50, yes I maintain it very well but I doubt it would be in such good order if I junked the stat system.
yea colder climates I might consider using them. Car was made for Germany daily weather. so there they probably need them too. But today when guys are running them in only good weather probably ok without.
Back in the day we saw a ton of VW's in the shop, and we rebuilt them regularly. What we saw a lot was thermostats that were either jammed because someone tried to mess with the adjustment with no clue what they were doing, thermostats that were not working properly because they were so buried in grease and dirt they were semi insulated and no moving properly or those that were just cracked from age. I forget which magazine I read it in back in the day but they did a few experiments on not running a thermostat vs, removing just the bellows, removing everything, and leaving the flaps and securing them in a fixed open position and the best cooling came from leaving the flaps in, but removing the spring and locking them in the full open position. There wasn't much difference on a 100 degree day between running no flaps and having a stuck thermostat at cylinder #3. If you relocated the oil cooler, then leaving the fins out had less of an effect, but having the fins there was still the better option. Loosing the thermostat had more effect on the car not having heat and defrost than anything else as well but in a warm climate, none of that is a concern. In cold climates, its pretty important. I drove a beetle to and from work for 11 years, in the winter, with a slightly hopped up motor with a 36hp fan shroud and full headers without heat exchangers, seeing where your going on a 10 degree day when its snowing and the windows are fogging up was a big issue, you were constantly wiping off glass and guessing where you were on the snowy road. Not a good feeling at all. I finally gave up and got me a 4x4 truck for the winter, but the warm heat and defrost ruined me and I really never went back to air cooled cars again. I did own a few buses after that but more for fun than primary use.
I agree with you bro , the thermostat and all the other crap that goes with it is a ticking bomb , ready to do damage ! I've built 1600's , 1776's and 1835's the only thing I do with the cooling tin is add type 3 tin under the cylinders . Of course full flow case and oil pump , remote oil filter , doghouse oil cooler , remote oil cooler with electric fan and extra oil sump . 😂 yeah it's a lot of extra shit but it's COOL 👍
Would a thermostat help my type 4 engine in Pennsylvania when I drive it in 40-50 degree weather in the Fall time? I do notice that my bay doesn't run quite right until it's warmed up which can take a good 20 mins or so
yea us too. We were getting 100k miles on a rebuild in the 80s no therm. Today aluminum case no thermostat getting 150k miles or more on a rebuild. No engine wear issues.
Hey! How would you do a manual thermostat (wood) for an 82 vanagon? I’m mostly gonna drive in warmer weather but would like to drive year round as long as it’s not a monsoon. I live in the PNW.
I would not worry about it AZ deserts are really cold in the winter. I know lots of people running without them. Multiweight oil would be a good idea. though to help lubricate when it is colder.
Is it a good idea to run a thermostat without the flaps? I live in Atlanta, Ga. and it gets really cold sometimes. I mainly want to use it for engine / head temps. Or, is there another device to use?
Lol. That “thing” you picked up and dropped @ 1:40 was part of the thermostat components for a 36hp. Like most things VW there were progressive “refinements” through the years. Pretty significant differences between 36/40/50hp engines with regard to the thermostat. Then there are the T3 and of course T4 varieties.
that was off that 40hp....early stale air heater box 40s. I think they had the 36hp style one. I haven't run one since the early 80s. and we didn't keep them very often.
a plank of wood covering the tubine hole does work: within a minute the idle goes up nicely, then I release it. One could make some properly "engineered" solution with that aproach.
Thermostats are for extremely cold temperatures. Below 30⁰ so most of the year Thermostat is never activated and rod and flappers get very stiff so when activated they stay frozen in closed position. I always threw them out. Never effected much considering heater comes from exhaust and not from block temperature . Car heat was still always very hot with 9.5 cr 😁
Always been working on my vw engines, now I'm working on this engine with thermostat, so here in California I'm going to delete it, after watching the video and checking comments. Thanks
not many have them here.....I had a guy who insisted on saying he has one so there is 1 person I know of. I have ran with and without them really no difference in drivability or engine lasting like guys are saying. Multiweight oil is great when your not running therm.
I have been into vdubs for 50 years and I have never had a thermostat fail closed. They are designed to fail open. I think the reason so many people got rid of them is because they have become increasingly hard to find and expensive. Guaranteed VW engineers put them in for a reason and they were used in all climates. On a more local note you should reread Gene Berg's study of using thermostats and why they should not be discarded. I have to call BS on your comments about all the thermostats you have seen where they failed closed.
well it does not explain why we saw cooked engines with Germán stats stuck shut. Ask any vw shop who has been around in socal since the beginning. Most will tell you they have seen what we saw.
I reread Bergs thoughts on thermostats. and the one thing I agree with is after market cooler over the fan hole.....That on is a NO NO....BTW his merged exhaust conflicts with thermostat and the sell them as street performance products. 4 tuned made on of the best merged systems ones back in the day but they are no longer.
@@Mikefngarage Nope. You have lots of opinions and no test reports. You are an urban legend. Berg like other true technical people did testing not just repeat something that was said.
@@benkanobe7500 Worked at a vw shop for over 10 years. Saw a few stuck closed. Yes we had data and yes nobody ran thermostats. at any of the local vw shops where i live. I would say that is proof. no issues of premature engine wear. No issues of anything like that...But did see a few engines come in with stuck stats burned up from heat and some had cracked cases from all the heat. Even today nobody uses them in socal well under 1% Now if your driving in super cold weather you might need them, but nobody is really doing that anymore. These are summer cars now for the most part.
Hi Mike, I know you and I have disagreed in the past on thermostats and cooling but we seemed to come around to a general agreement on certain things. When I rebuilt my engine I switched to cool tins and ditched the thermostat, based on your well-argued and logical advice, with the caveat that I kept the stock shroud with the flaps in place (I believe the flaps help direct the airflow) but in the permanently open position. I've never regretted it, it really works, never had any cooling issues. I do run the car in winter but it just takes a little longer to warm up the engine. So I say run cooltins and permanently open flaps in the shroud, and forget the thermostat.
hardly ever see them anymore. Most of the shops around here removed them in the 80s. Only on a old 36 or 40 that was sitting in the garage for 30 years.
yea those typ3 3 dual carb chokes can be a plug fouler. Forgot about that. Been light years since i worked on those. On the 36hp it does make the heater work better.....but you better crack a window!
If you live in cold weather. Maybe make a custom cover out of sheet metal over the fan. Control the opening from the cab by a cable or electric motor set up. Linear Acuator.
exacly.! i am doing that. Even though i was the only lunatic thinking that , i see many others are having same ideas.. I am building a system to controlle the flaps the first 5 minutes of the engine in the winter..and a lamp signal to stop me to forget the flaps clossed 😀
Or run the stock control flaps in the shroud attached to a manual choke cable. You'll find the flap linkages already have a provision for this mod! Just don't forget to open up the flaps once the engine warms up!
You could always throw a walmart plastic bag in your fan to help warm it up, then fish it out after a few minutes. j/k, thermo's are a touchy subject for many, that's for sure. I don't drive mine in the winter anyway.
yea around here they are pretty much non existent. only a few Rogue original guys who have them. Most guys that were driving in the 80s as a daily never ran them.
More than 150k miles on a rebuild tells me no thermostats are OK here. Never got that from original engines with thermostats. But that was with aluminum case China stroker crank and rods. same miles as original rebuild with or without thermostat in CA....science is what I follow.
Maybe cause Germany gets pretty cold. They probably got cooked in Australia. I gotta a big bore 40 hp build goin.and u think it will warm up quicker cause of thinner cylinders. Maybe a short distance type of build.
unless your in super cold climate....and driving it during that I dont find them necessary. running big bore 40 on my bucket truck with my foot on the floor all day long and it holds up. you should be fine.
Definitely not an over engineer if you don't live somewhere like Mike! Very necessary here. We see cars around here running without that always have milk shakes in the oil fillers
2 minutes of you rambling on about how the flaps don't work, while you try to illustrate the point on a non flap should, with an early stale air pivot. And the original German thermostats fail safe so the flaps open.... If that's your opinion so be it, but dear god at least get the relevant facts and parts correct.
Everyone I Know does not run them. There are only a few stragglers left who still do. nobody that I know has any issues from running without them. There is currently no data anywhere that says specifically that the flaps really do anything to make the engine run cooler. Only Gene berg website that says 15 to 18 percent longer engine life. Which I find debunked with data that we had back in the 80s up until the 90s. Engines with or without thermostats that came into the shop lasted exactly the same time. Now that is out here. I don't know where you are from. so some areas that might be different. We got between 70 and 100k miles on engines. dealer cars came in for first engine in about the same time period. We used all Germán parts. and got the same engine life as cars that were new.
Don't try to tell me how to build my VW motor ! I owned a VW since I was 14 and have driven over 1,000,000 miles in them ? Oh yeah I never had a thermostat in none of my motors ( sorry ) ( never mind ) .
Mostly good but you don't have it right about warm up past 9 minutes. The engine has very little mass so head temp will stabilize to the conditions after only a minute or at most two. in fact you said that repeatedly. it's not different in other parts of the world. Heads get as hot as it's gonna get in two minutes of drive time. You know that about water cooled vs air cooled but when you talk about a VW warming up in cali quicker than anywhere else that's BS, it warms up at the same rate no matter where you are. AS HOT AS IT WILL GET within a minute or two. If it's super cold it's never going to warm up no matter how long you wait. If it hasn't warmed up in two minutes it's not going to get any hotter. How QUICK engine warms up depending on how hard you drive it, not depending on where it's located. In cold climates that's not hot enough. Now the OIL temp, that lags behind a lot more, ten minutes maybe. takes a lot longer to heat the oil. So good thinking with the wood trick to get the heads hot temporarily but it won't fix the oil temp. The heads would overheat before you get the oil up to temp. Try it and see. So good first half of the vid, second half needs more research. Doesn't get cold enough to try? head north.
The current thermostat goes by air temp near the head. So it does nothing for oil temp either. with or without thermstat . We have been running here without thermostats for 30 plus years. Never had any engine wear out prematurely. This was based on year round driving. Data from engine repair shops I worked at. We had the same engine life with thermostat and without it. Only pertaining to the weather here but if you average our winters might be similar to a northern summer or eastern summer, I think it is pretty safe to say there is not any reason to argue the data.....It is what it is. we dont have any extra engine wear from running without thermostats here.
I routinely use an IR temperature gun on my engine in three places mid-drive and post-drive (engine idling) 1. Engine case near the oil pressure sensor 2. The thermostat bellows 3. The cylinder head What Glen stated is accurate. In outside temperatures of high 30s and 40s, it's common for my thermostat to stay closed or partially open, depending on how hard and fast I drive.
Were I live less than 1% of vw owners have thermostats. Most dont even know what they are because nobody runs them. watch the next short....330k on 2 engines. No thermostats ever. they really make no difference out here.
@@Mikefngarage You got your facts wrong and you used the wrong props. Get your research straight before you decide you're a better engineer than the people who designed the VW. Me, I'll stick with their design- they knew what they were doing.
@@63MGSedanman engineers made a car for all year round climate all over the world. that has changed. Watch my short. it will get your blood flowing. IM not wrong. If I am wrong everybody in California is wrong.
@@Mikefngarage I like you're videos Mike. But you really botched this one. Your recommendation for cold weather - don't use a thermostat, put a BOARD in front of your fan intake. Come on man. 💩
Wrong! I had my shop in southern California and we knew then what most know now that the Germans were mighty smart. The thermostat is vacuum sealed so it fails OPEN (expanded) not closed. It can not fail closed without first failing open and then someone crushing it (it is a spring compressed by the atmosphere due to the vacuum inside). Also, as a secondary fail-safe (like due to corrosion on the pivot points of the flaps/vanes in the fan shroud controlled by the thermostat) the flaps/vanes are held OPEN by a spring on the back of the fan shroud.
Im not sure why.....but I do recall one specifically that was stuck shut. I dont remember how it happened. but it was this was more than 30 years ago so I dont remembers how it was done but it would not open with heat. not everything works like it should. I do remember seeing several cars that had stuck therms come in for engines too but I dont remember how they were stuck from the linkage of what......It can happen. and did. I am not denying the concept that they are designed to fail open but that is what I saw with my own eyes. Just because something is designed a way does not mean it can never happen.
called my old boss and confirmed....Yes we had some that would not open. Riverside CA. Several shops had the same. We used to sell them after checking them to see if they opened and when they were good we sold them to a guy in Canada. Back then as a daily drive you needed a thermostat in the cold winters.
Lol. I put them on every motor I have. Of course I only drive bone stockers. Never had one fail, but I maintain my busses and cars and pay attention to them when driving. Sounds and smells are to be paid attention to. Being aware has saved me more times than I can count with all types of cars. Most people just drive cars till they stop and then say”what a piece of junk”. Well dummy, if you would have listened to what the car was telling you, you would have stopped long before any real damage. Can’t “learn” some people.
Hi. Here in England, I am on a forum called The Late Bay. Most people on there think that the flaps and thermostats really needs to be fitted. Maybe because on average, it’s colder here. Also, a lot of people here seem to fit head temp and oil temp sensors on their engines to monitor them, after all, they are really old,but good tech. I All the best.👍🏾🛠🇬🇧
Early bay here, also on the Late bay forum 😀 Hi @Soggz ! My '71 has no working thermostat, flaps are permanently open. I have an oil temp dipstick fitted. It didn't prevent me from overheating the engine in last autumn's heatwave. Now I need to pull the engine to investigate 😥
@@ocavant yea you need to listen to your engine for sure. except when you drive the bucket truck you cant hear it. only the gear whine. and it is pretty faint.
Have a stock FI super beetle that always ran super hot. No thermostat, no flaps, all the correct tins in place. I installed the Andrig directional fixed flaps and cool tins. Somewhere between the two, no more over heating. Austin TX.
My Buddy gets over 150k miles on a rebuild on 2 engines 1776. 350k to be exact with NO THERMOSTATS or FLAPS...Nothing just regular maintenance, spin on filter, 2 coolers stock DH and Full flow aluminum case Counterweighed China crank.. ( Oil temp is almost too cool for that in the winter). He even pulls a trailer a lot of the time. to go camping which he does a LOT...Drives from CA to AZ in the night in the summer near 100 deg Average rebuild time in the old days with ALL THEMOSTATS in place or without them Was 70k to 100k. Almost never over 100k. this was on 1600 engines. 40hp would go longer because they had no power. Usually they upgraded to 1600. With or without thermostats they lasted about the same time All stock....All other tin on the engine and proper original cooling parts.
If you want to tell me it makes a difference Please explain WHY does his engine with NO THERMOSTATS or FLAPS last that long.. He didnt even need a rebuild because of oil pressure or oil use. Just did it because he thought it was time.
@@Mikefngarage I don't know. I would have to see it, see how it was driven, and disassemble it at a minimum before I could render any opinion. In science, we call that an anomaly and in this case n=1 so my confidence interval is very low.
@@benkanobe7500 my guess is you have never ran without a thermostat to see if there is any difference. I have ran with and without. honestly cant tell any difference on a engine rebuild with or without. We had some that we dropped it boiling water that would not open.....Yes they are vacuum sealed and fail safe to open.....explain why that happened. I cant. it just did.
I have always had them fitted as I live in the UK (Not California climate) and I trust the millions of Pounds / Dollars VW spent on the research and development of their engines :)
I’ve always used mine ever since reading Gene Berg’s technical papers.
Yea several of those old books had some info that we found irrelevant like the bulletin for the cool tin not working. That was in one of those books. I dont remember which one.
But arent you in the north Canada or something I dont recall colder climate?
@@Mikefngarage Actually no; always lived in tropical and subtropical climates. And you are also right about the cool tin; we used that starting in the 1980’s and it works fine. I don’t think Gene Berg was the one talking about that VW factory service bulletin on the cool tin saying that the original deflector plates work better?
@@vayabroder729 Yea I dont think he was the one who said that. He says factory parts were the best cooling. I dont see him actually saying that the engine needed the thermostat either. Especially when he was an advocate of the Merged exhaust. which would make running a thermostat impossible. Says without thermostat veins causes 15-18% more engine wear.....Never seen that ever. We were getting near or just over 100k miles on stock rebuilds. and factory was about the same. without thermostats. The one thing we agree on is aftermarket coolers put over the fan hole.....That was a real problem. restricts air flow.
You're right Mike... I never run them either. In addition, I think that some people have even cooked their motors by not using the doghouse with the directional vanes (just a pressurized box) and also by omitting the tin under the cylinders.
Oh yea for sure. The ones from Scat are like the original. Unlike some of the cheap aftermarket dog house shrouds
It's funny. I have never EVER seen one of the German style fail stuck. Only time I could say one stuck wasn't the tstat, it was stuck flaps ...due to mis installation. The non fail safe Mexican tstats are the units that got the reputation for failing closed. I've driven mine on mid 80 degree days here in New England and the stat isn't more than half open, and engine isn't overly hot. Personally unless I lived where you do i would never be without. Plus, it's nice to have heat on these 40s something mornings haha.
my heater works great when its 40 out without the thermostat. I even used to go skiing in my vw and the heater worked fine no thermostat. and under 40 degrees took no real time to warm up. Ran fine....usually running hot is the biggest issue on a VW.
I run no thermostat, but I agree: the old bellows ones usually stick open and the newer Mexican ones fail closed and cause overheating, I'd never use the Mexican spring type for that reason.
@@martinharris5017 I dont recall verry well any of that I just recall the boss using a propane torch on the bellows and them not moving and going well we know what happened here. Haven't run thermostats since the 80s. Which was a very long time ago. But I do remember seeing many of them stuck shut and engine cooked.
@@Mikefngarage In any case, I took the safe/easy option and junked the Tstat altogether. One less item to worry about!
@@martinharris5017 If I recall correctly was over 30 years ago but for some reason has stuck in my head. It was an original early 70s beetle came in the shop with a stuck Therm. Engine had never been out had around 70 or 80k miles on it and Left with a new engine Came in for maintenance I don't think we ever rebuilt it again. Ran probably another 10 years or 100k miles that is what we saw often after a car came in for a rebuild there.
Thank you! Too many experts say you need the thermostat. I’ve never had the overheating problem on the Midwest, but I don’t drive mine in the winter. I even use the old cast aluminum aftermarket fan shroud with a late model fan. Never an overheating problem!
Some guys here have never seen them. Because so many cars dont have them. Been running without them longer than I can remember. I only remember the boss taking a propane torch to the therm and it not moving. and a car that came in the shop smelled like burt oil. black dipstick for a rebuild. Then he told me about why this happened and how many of these he had seen.
Don’t the older style thermostats fail open? I think the newer Mexican ones are at risk of failing closed and burning up your motor.
We had American thermostats failing closed. They would never open so they need to get hot to open. would take heat and not open. I remember back in the day the boss using a propane torch and seeing if it was working. wasnt a Mexican car either.
Yes, German stats fail open. The Mexi stats are a different design and fail closed (STUPID design) You need to run a proper German style stat
Bellows tstats fail open, Mex tsts fail closed, as a rule.
I'm going with VW engineers and Berg, who had 40 years running a world wide enterprise.
I use the thermostats and adjust them per the Bentley manual. Worked for me and my customers for 33 years.
150000 miles ????😂😂😂😂😂
some more than that. but I have data for that Bug.....and it pulls a trailer 600-800lbs. He drove it year round too. never had a thermostat. Changed the engine only because it had that many miles. still ran great. Now that engine is in a bus at more than 50k miles. no issues. Today with modern muti weight oils ( and yes they work fine even some synthetics. Not the old mobile 1) that theory is old news IMO. just plain outdated. Back then they were using straight weight oil as well. So yea that would cause engine wear.....not the therm. it was the oil.
@@Mikefngarage
I actually did have an oil problem,when graphite oil 1st came out.
A customer used it in his fresh 2110 on his second oil change (1000 miles).
The engine started to run real hot but he caught it soon enough.
The graphite coated the entire inside of the engine and stopped heat transfer.
A complete disassembly, cleaning and reassembly solved the problem.
( Yeah it had thermostat and flaps) , went about 38000 miles and the bus got t boned. Don't know what happened to the engine.
I agree Mike. I removed all the linkage and flaps along with the thermostat in my 1961 panel buses 40hp stale air engine, as the bus will never be driven in anything but warm summer temperatures. I do not trust these 62 year old thermostats and linkages to operate correctly anymore, and l'm not gonna burn up my engine because if it failing. Your videos are very knowledgeable and entertaining as well.
Hi Mike, Interesting theme even though I have a water-cooled VW T3 a 1982 model Diesel engine so I don't should have that kind of issue, But here in here in Norway those who drive the early Aircooled need I suppose the Thermostat. always great to see your different approaches to make great themes of different ways of solving problems👍🏻. Thanks for sharing🙏🏻🇺🇸.🇳🇴🇳🇱🤗🍀Greetings.Hubertus
pretty cold there I suppose you would need one. that is why the engineers put them in there. for colder climates.
@@Mikefngarage Yes Indeed-👍🏻
Demo shroud looks to be from a 73 thing. Fairly rare piece. Good talk about the t-stat I dont run them either. Thanks for the videos.
yea probably more us west coast vw guys. ha ha. Goes up to WA.... down to Mexico.
In Australia with the warmer climate we did not use thermostats at all. I don’t remember seeing one at all.
Rarely see them here. Havent seen many of them since the early 80s. Most of the time they are all missing.
I’ve used a thermostat on my motor that is 30 years old but live in the uk where for 6 months of the year it never gets above 50, yes I maintain it very well but I doubt it would be in such good order if I junked the stat system.
yea colder climates I might consider using them. Car was made for Germany daily weather. so there they probably need them too. But today when guys are running them in only good weather probably ok without.
Back in the day we saw a ton of VW's in the shop, and we rebuilt them regularly. What we saw a lot was thermostats that were either jammed because someone tried to mess with the adjustment with no clue what they were doing, thermostats that were not working properly because they were so buried in grease and dirt they were semi insulated and no moving properly or those that were just cracked from age. I forget which magazine I read it in back in the day but they did a few experiments on not running a thermostat vs, removing just the bellows, removing everything, and leaving the flaps and securing them in a fixed open position and the best cooling came from leaving the flaps in, but removing the spring and locking them in the full open position. There wasn't much difference on a 100 degree day between running no flaps and having a stuck thermostat at cylinder #3. If you relocated the oil cooler, then leaving the fins out had less of an effect, but having the fins there was still the better option.
Loosing the thermostat had more effect on the car not having heat and defrost than anything else as well but in a warm climate, none of that is a concern.
In cold climates, its pretty important. I drove a beetle to and from work for 11 years, in the winter, with a slightly hopped up motor with a 36hp fan shroud and full headers without heat exchangers, seeing where your going on a 10 degree day when its snowing and the windows are fogging up was a big issue, you were constantly wiping off glass and guessing where you were on the snowy road. Not a good feeling at all. I finally gave up and got me a 4x4 truck for the winter, but the warm heat and defrost ruined me and I really never went back to air cooled cars again. I did own a few buses after that but more for fun than primary use.
I agree with you bro , the thermostat and all the other crap that goes with it is a ticking bomb , ready to do damage ! I've built 1600's , 1776's and 1835's the only thing I do with the cooling tin is add type 3 tin under the cylinders . Of course full flow case and oil pump , remote oil filter , doghouse oil cooler , remote oil cooler with electric fan and extra oil sump . 😂 yeah it's a lot of extra shit but it's COOL 👍
I'm in Northern California and I have never run them. Been driving VWs since '82. no issues so far...
yea literally over 99% of California owners either dont run them or dont even know they exist.
Would a thermostat help my type 4 engine in Pennsylvania when I drive it in 40-50 degree weather in the Fall time? I do notice that my bay doesn't run quite right until it's warmed up which can take a good 20 mins or so
We do Not use these in GA PITA. Get 60K to 80K miles between rebuilds on T1 Bus. Drive them hard foot on floor to 65 all stock 1600.
yea us too. We were getting 100k miles on a rebuild in the 80s no therm. Today aluminum case no thermostat getting 150k miles or more on a rebuild. No engine wear issues.
Hey! How would you do a manual thermostat (wood) for an 82 vanagon? I’m mostly gonna drive in warmer weather but would like to drive year round as long as it’s not a monsoon. I live in the PNW.
I would not worry about it AZ deserts are really cold in the winter. I know lots of people running without them. Multiweight oil would be a good idea. though to help lubricate when it is colder.
Is it a good idea to run a thermostat without the flaps? I live in Atlanta, Ga. and it gets really cold sometimes. I mainly want to use it for engine / head temps. Or, is there another device to use?
Exactly what I was thinking
Thanks!
THANK YOU !!!!!!!!!!! Big help there!!!!!
Thank you so much. hope this helps.
Lol. That “thing” you picked up and dropped @ 1:40 was part of the thermostat components for a 36hp. Like most things VW there were progressive “refinements” through the years. Pretty significant differences between 36/40/50hp engines with regard to the thermostat. Then there are the T3 and of course T4 varieties.
that was off that 40hp....early stale air heater box 40s. I think they had the 36hp style one. I haven't run one since the early 80s. and we didn't keep them very often.
a plank of wood covering the tubine hole does work: within a minute the idle goes up nicely, then I release it. One could make some properly "engineered" solution with that aproach.
Haven't used a thermostat in my engines either, never had any issues.
here in Missouri, my bug runs at negative 40 and the heater does work
might want thermostats if you do that all the time.
Thermostats are for extremely cold temperatures. Below 30⁰ so most of the year Thermostat is never activated and rod and flappers get very stiff so when activated they stay frozen in closed position. I always threw them out. Never effected much considering heater comes from exhaust and not from block temperature . Car heat was still always very hot with 9.5 cr 😁
Hey Mike, I'm a young guy and I'm trying to look for or restore a 1967 VW bus. Do you have any tips cause I really don't know where to start😅
westfalia playlist. chech the channel did a whole video series on 67 westfalia camper van all metalwork and body and paint.
First rob a bank!
I didn't realize that the Tstat was only for engine warm up and not heat.
yea for quicker warm up.....Doesnt really effect the heater either. Heaters are exhaust driven. so they work fine without thermostat
Always been working on my vw engines, now I'm working on this engine with thermostat, so here in California I'm going to delete it, after watching the video and checking comments. Thanks
not many have them here.....I had a guy who insisted on saying he has one so there is 1 person I know of. I have ran with and without them really no difference in drivability or engine lasting like guys are saying. Multiweight oil is great when your not running therm.
I have been into vdubs for 50 years and I have never had a thermostat fail closed. They are designed to fail open. I think the reason so many people got rid of them is because they have become increasingly hard to find and expensive. Guaranteed VW engineers put them in for a reason and they were used in all climates. On a more local note you should reread Gene Berg's study of using thermostats and why they should not be discarded. I have to call BS on your comments about all the thermostats you have seen where they failed closed.
well it does not explain why we saw cooked engines with Germán stats stuck shut. Ask any vw shop who has been around in socal since the beginning. Most will tell you they have seen what we saw.
I reread Bergs thoughts on thermostats. and the one thing I agree with is after market cooler over the fan hole.....That on is a NO NO....BTW his merged exhaust conflicts with thermostat and the sell them as street performance products. 4 tuned made on of the best merged systems ones back in the day but they are no longer.
My 1600 overheated due to a stuck thermostat...took it out throw it in the trash...rebuild engine and never had a problem summer or winter...
@@Mikefngarage Nope. You have lots of opinions and no test reports. You are an urban legend. Berg like other true technical people did testing not just repeat something that was said.
@@benkanobe7500 Worked at a vw shop for over 10 years. Saw a few stuck closed. Yes we had data and yes nobody ran thermostats. at any of the local vw shops where i live. I would say that is proof. no issues of premature engine wear. No issues of anything like that...But did see a few engines come in with stuck stats burned up from heat and some had cracked cases from all the heat. Even today nobody uses them in socal well under 1% Now if your driving in super cold weather you might need them, but nobody is really doing that anymore. These are summer cars now for the most part.
Hi Mike, I know you and I have disagreed in the past on thermostats and cooling but we seemed to come around to a general agreement on certain things. When I rebuilt my engine I switched to cool tins and ditched the thermostat, based on your well-argued and logical advice, with the caveat that I kept the stock shroud with the flaps in place (I believe the flaps help direct the airflow) but in the permanently open position. I've never regretted it, it really works, never had any cooling issues. I do run the car in winter but it just takes a little longer to warm up the engine.
So I say run cooltins and permanently open flaps in the shroud, and forget the thermostat.
hardly ever see them anymore. Most of the shops around here removed them in the 80s. Only on a old 36 or 40 that was sitting in the garage for 30 years.
Ive got mine on a 36hp , but religiously remove them on anything else , and auto chokes on type3 twin carbs
yea those typ3 3 dual carb chokes can be a plug fouler. Forgot about that. Been light years since i worked on those. On the 36hp it does make the heater work better.....but you better crack a window!
Why do no small engines have them? Like briggs and stratton kawasaki honda kohler onan none of them have thermostas/ air shut offs.
I don't recall seeing thermostats in small engines. Only governors there is a difference
If you live in cold weather. Maybe make a custom cover out of sheet metal over the fan. Control the opening from the cab by a cable or electric motor set up. Linear Acuator.
exacly.! i am doing that. Even though i was the only lunatic thinking that , i see many others are having same ideas.. I am building a system to controlle the flaps the first 5 minutes of the engine in the winter..and a lamp signal to stop me to forget the flaps clossed 😀
Or run the stock control flaps in the shroud attached to a manual choke cable. You'll find the flap linkages already have a provision for this mod! Just don't forget to open up the flaps once the engine warms up!
@Silent Hill Fan I'd though about that solution too, but knowing me I'd forget to open the vents and cook the motor!!
You could always throw a walmart plastic bag in your fan to help warm it up, then fish it out after a few minutes. j/k, thermo's are a touchy subject for many, that's for sure. I don't drive mine in the winter anyway.
yea around here they are pretty much non existent. only a few Rogue original guys who have them. Most guys that were driving in the 80s as a daily never ran them.
Every non-smoker that I polled said they don't buy ciggys.......
Can't argue with science....lmao
More than 150k miles on a rebuild tells me no thermostats are OK here. Never got that from original engines with thermostats. But that was with aluminum case China stroker crank and rods. same miles as original rebuild with or without thermostat in CA....science is what I follow.
No themostat on my 40 hp. They fail with the flaps or cone open. Fail safe. I just block my fan for a quicker warm up.
I don't run them either. I've never noticed a problem
I never had a Volkswagen engine that had a thermostat on it.
Never ran a thermostat and never will.
Well I had engines with them but when I rebuilt them or removed the engine tin I left them out. Running multiweight. too.
But your engine needs to maintain a proper temp to run right
efficiency, Fuel economy, Engine wear, are all effected by not having a thermostat. too hot or too cold is not good.
I heard when they fail they fail open
Maybe cause Germany gets pretty cold. They probably got cooked in Australia. I gotta a big bore 40 hp build goin.and u think it will warm up quicker cause of thinner cylinders. Maybe a short distance type of build.
unless your in super cold climate....and driving it during that I dont find them necessary. running big bore 40 on my bucket truck with my foot on the floor all day long and it holds up. you should be fine.
throw an Engle 100 reground in there.....like 50 bucks at brothers vw machine shop. comes with cam gear. engine build for that coming pretty soon.
Operation sounds good in theory. Grew up in Cali with many bugs, quite sure none had a thermostat. Never an issue. A German over engineer😂
Definitely not an over engineer if you don't live somewhere like Mike! Very necessary here. We see cars around here running without that always have milk shakes in the oil fillers
Never had any issues with them ever running cold even in the mountains.
2 minutes of you rambling on about how the flaps don't work, while you try to illustrate the point on a non flap should, with an early stale air pivot. And the original German thermostats fail safe so the flaps open....
If that's your opinion so be it, but dear god at least get the relevant facts and parts correct.
Everyone I Know does not run them. There are only a few stragglers left who still do. nobody that I know has any issues from running without them. There is currently no data anywhere that says specifically that the flaps really do anything to make the engine run cooler. Only Gene berg website that says 15 to 18 percent longer engine life. Which I find debunked with data that we had back in the 80s up until the 90s. Engines with or without thermostats that came into the shop lasted exactly the same time. Now that is out here. I don't know where you are from. so some areas that might be different. We got between 70 and 100k miles on engines. dealer cars came in for first engine in about the same time period. We used all Germán parts. and got the same engine life as cars that were new.
Don't try to tell me how to build my VW motor ! I owned a VW since I was 14 and have driven over 1,000,000 miles in them ? Oh yeah I never had a thermostat in none of my motors ( sorry ) ( never mind ) .
your comments always crack me up...Yea texas does not get that cold IMO....Hot as F....
Mostly good but you don't have it right about warm up past 9 minutes. The engine has very little mass so head temp will stabilize to the conditions after only a minute or at most two. in fact you said that repeatedly. it's not different in other parts of the world. Heads get as hot as it's gonna get in two minutes of drive time.
You know that about water cooled vs air cooled but when you talk about a VW warming up in cali quicker than anywhere else that's BS, it warms up at the same rate no matter where you are.
AS HOT AS IT WILL GET within a minute or two.
If it's super cold it's never going to warm up no matter how long you wait.
If it hasn't warmed up in two minutes it's not going to get any hotter.
How QUICK engine warms up depending on how hard you drive it, not depending on where it's located. In cold climates that's not hot enough.
Now the OIL temp, that lags behind a lot more, ten minutes maybe. takes a lot longer to heat the oil.
So good thinking with the wood trick to get the heads hot temporarily but it won't fix the oil temp. The heads would overheat before you get the oil up to temp. Try it and see. So good first half of the vid, second half needs more research. Doesn't get cold enough to try? head north.
The current thermostat goes by air temp near the head. So it does nothing for oil temp either. with or without thermstat . We have been running here without thermostats for 30 plus years. Never had any engine wear out prematurely. This was based on year round driving. Data from engine repair shops I worked at. We had the same engine life with thermostat and without it. Only pertaining to the weather here but if you average our winters might be similar to a northern summer or eastern summer, I think it is pretty safe to say there is not any reason to argue the data.....It is what it is. we dont have any extra engine wear from running without thermostats here.
I routinely use an IR temperature gun on my engine in three places mid-drive and post-drive (engine idling) 1. Engine case near the oil pressure sensor 2. The thermostat bellows 3. The cylinder head
What Glen stated is accurate. In outside temperatures of high 30s and 40s, it's common for my thermostat to stay closed or partially open, depending on how hard and fast I drive.
I used to think you knew what you were talking about- now I know you don't have a clue.
Were I live less than 1% of vw owners have thermostats. Most dont even know what they are because nobody runs them. watch the next short....330k on 2 engines. No thermostats ever. they really make no difference out here.
@@Mikefngarage You got your facts wrong and you used the wrong props. Get your research straight before you decide you're a better engineer than the people who designed the VW. Me, I'll stick with their design- they knew what they were doing.
@@63MGSedanman engineers made a car for all year round climate all over the world. that has changed. Watch my short. it will get your blood flowing. IM not wrong. If I am wrong everybody in California is wrong.
@@Mikefngarage I like you're videos Mike. But you really botched this one. Your recommendation for cold weather - don't use a thermostat, put a BOARD in front of your fan intake. Come on man. 💩
Wrong! I had my shop in southern California and we knew then what most know now that the Germans were mighty smart. The thermostat is vacuum sealed so it fails OPEN (expanded) not closed. It can not fail closed without first failing open and then someone crushing it (it is a spring compressed by the atmosphere due to the vacuum inside). Also, as a secondary fail-safe (like due to corrosion on the pivot points of the flaps/vanes in the fan shroud controlled by the thermostat) the flaps/vanes are held OPEN by a spring on the back of the fan shroud.
Im not sure why.....but I do recall one specifically that was stuck shut. I dont remember how it happened. but it was this was more than 30 years ago so I dont remembers how it was done but it would not open with heat. not everything works like it should. I do remember seeing several cars that had stuck therms come in for engines too but I dont remember how they were stuck from the linkage of what......It can happen. and did. I am not denying the concept that they are designed to fail open but that is what I saw with my own eyes. Just because something is designed a way does not mean it can never happen.
called my old boss and confirmed....Yes we had some that would not open. Riverside CA. Several shops had the same. We used to sell them after checking them to see if they opened and when they were good we sold them to a guy in Canada. Back then as a daily drive you needed a thermostat in the cold winters.
Not just wrong,.......but like flat erf wrong.
ok ua-cam.com/users/shortsAghRtDLgY0w
yes they fail //its a bad day , people would never replace them , so remove them .
We all have here. I never see them except on an old 40 or 36 that someone had sitting in their garage like 40 years.
Lol. I put them on every motor I have. Of course I only drive bone stockers.
Never had one fail, but I maintain my busses and cars and pay attention to them when driving. Sounds and smells are to be paid attention to. Being aware has saved me more times than I can count with all types of cars. Most people just drive cars till they stop and then say”what a piece of junk”. Well dummy, if you would have listened to what the car was telling you, you would have stopped long before any real damage.
Can’t “learn” some people.
Hi.
Here in England, I am on a forum called The Late Bay.
Most people on there think that the flaps and thermostats really needs to be fitted. Maybe because on average, it’s colder here.
Also, a lot of people here seem to fit head temp and oil temp sensors on their engines to monitor them, after all, they are really old,but good tech.
I
All the best.👍🏾🛠🇬🇧
Early bay here, also on the Late bay forum 😀 Hi @Soggz !
My '71 has no working thermostat, flaps are permanently open. I have an oil temp dipstick fitted. It didn't prevent me from overheating the engine in last autumn's heatwave. Now I need to pull the engine to investigate 😥
@@ocavant yea you need to listen to your engine for sure. except when you drive the bucket truck you cant hear it. only the gear whine. and it is pretty faint.
Beware! This is video is complete utter nonsense!
interesting logic.....Everyone who i know who has been building engines for a long period of time. in Socal has the same logic....
Have a stock FI super beetle that always ran super hot. No thermostat, no flaps, all the correct tins in place. I installed the Andrig directional fixed flaps and cool tins. Somewhere between the two, no more over heating. Austin TX.
watch the next short.....
@@cjjones1556 cool tins do work. Yea in texas no real need for thermostats either.
Put a hazards on the rod linkage and are you having problem cuz you know it's stuck
I never had a problem with a Volkswagen engine overheating when I use graphite oil
I didnt know they still made that stuff. Arco graphite.