RAS Coms Or Mass Fabricators? | Supreme Commander Science
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- Опубліковано 28 лют 2022
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The RAS coms are also significantly harder to kill than T3 MassFabs. You need SAMs and Shields to protect the Mass farms, that's more mass investment in to the ECO. An sACU also gives a bit over two hives worth of build power, that's 784mass that you can remove from the mass efficiency calculations as you get that as an extra. It's hard to quantify the actual tactical value of RAS over MassFabs, but it's clearly closer than what the pure mass numbers suggest.
jup this should have been taken into account. that you need atleast one t2 shield to protect a little MassFabricator farm and that the SACU has good buildpower and can also go reclaim things on the frontline. moreover the production of sacus starts instanteously while a ras farm takes some time with the horrible pathfinding and slow build speed.
imo the best way is to build a few mass fabricators in the late-midgame but switch to sacus only in the lategame.
And it's a much, much bigger target. And a RAS won't cause any power stall unless they build something.
yeah, vulnerability is way bigger of an issue
Don't forget that Cybrac sACUs can get RAS and a SAM
@@thomashalsted1888 walking sam that giving you resources nice
You also didn't mention the convenience that building RAS-Coms over MassFarms bring. You can setup a factory on loop, and it will keep increasing your eco without the requirement of extra APM and, if you want to crank it to eleven, the possibility to support it with loads and loads of buildforce in just one 5x5 space. Try to do that with T3 mass farms! It's bumper cars all over! :D
This is the most efficient I have found:
16 x T2 Fabs capping 1 x T3 Gen, plus 12 T2 Fabs anywhere else. 16 x T2 Fabs capping Gen take 1296 power. 12 x T2 Fabs uncapped take 1200 power. 1 x T3 Gen gives 2500 power. so you gain 4 power :P
This costs 8840 mass, generates 28 mass and has a repay of 315.7.
Using adjacency for T3 Fabs and T3 power gives 351.25 (2 x T3 Fabs capping 1 x T3 Gen. The 2 x Fabs then take 2436 power.) and if you then cab those fabs it rises to 371.
RAS bois have more to offer, but if you just want to boost income as fast a possible, T2 capping a T3 gen then 12 others (anywhere) is the best (please correct if I am wrong about the numbers).
A balanced eco with different methods is always good, but APM and space are the big factors.
Another benifit from T2 capping T3 is that if you lose the T3 you'll only lose the T2 fabs capping it. With the T3 combo you'll lose a lot more.
the fact you are asking is blasphemy. we all know that the bois are there for you when you need them. they are chads. but the virgin mass fabs just blow up anytime something doesn't go their way. Bois are supperior!
Mass fabs are a good thing to anchor t3 landfabs around. Cheaper units, yay!
Cries in Seraphim...
the mass fab has a lot less health than the SACU, the mass fab death explosion is a lot more damaging than that of the SACU, and mass fabs are usually built right next to other volatile buildings like pgens for adjacency bonus. all of this makes mass fab farms extremely vulnerable to blowing up in a big chain reaction when they come under fire.
the SACU on the other hand not only has a lot of health, but it is also mobile and amphibious, which means you can walk them away from danger, even hide them under the ocean where they are completely immune to most land and air threats, and on top of that you can even get additional upgrades to make your RAS SACU even more safe if you really want to, like nano repair or personal shield.
Bingo. By that stage of the game you're going to consistently get stand off range weapons turning up and a mass farm is a no brainer for heavy artillery targets, or strategic missiles.
If you have mass fabs and some strat bombers sneak by you can lose most of your base. The ras coms usually live an attack from the same bombers
An important point I think you missed is RAS support coms are fire and forget self generating eco. Just set an infinite build queue and it doesn't require any more APM to deal with.
I can see someone pumping them out in a line straight into a lake. Scooping some out when needed.
Since Ego Depletion is strongly suggested to be real phenomena, it may indirectly help with other things, such as combat.
The ras is not an easy target. It has no running cost that need be fed externaly.
A t3 mass fab adjacent to factorys grants a good discount. Use it for that.
When you factor in the energy generated and the space saved from not dropping fields of hard to defend pgens and mass fabs, its easy to understand why they're popular
I’ve seen a gentleman go 1v3 with only RAS coms. His entire eco was destroyed and he was relying on 80+ RAS coms. He still ended up losing but none the less he put up a hell of a fight with basically nothing.
I think the main reason why while I played I never thought on building those are:
Voliatile
People compare it to limited Mass extractors, but that is before super late game.
I will say some things that buff Mass Fabs, adjency bonus, even if small its a bonus
But yeah its basically a "Mass fabs bad" situation.
10 seconds into that intro and I knew you were a man after my own heart 😂❤
The most likley thing to happen if you build big amounts of RAScoms or T3 Massfabs ist that T3 Arillery is being used by you and your opponent. Mass fab Grids are highly explosive an need massive amounts of shields to protect them or they will chain react.
T2 mass fabs are straight up more efficient than t3 mass fabs. Also t2 mass fabs build faster so they return your investment faster than t3. Think about it. You can build 1 t3 mass fab or several t2 mass fabs. By the time you finish your t3 mass fab, your opponent (who is making t2 mass fabs) has already being getting mass from the first t2 fabs he made.
The RAS com also has build power. You will need to replace that with engies and engies cost mass. So you need to factor the cost of t3 engies. Also the RAS com provides a lot of HP to your power production which is important if a scathis is shooting at your base and killing your pgens. You should shield your mass fabs to give them the same hp as a ras com and then compare.
t3 mass fab take less space
t3 mass fabs are actually only really good for their adjacency bonus. I think achieved_jaguar (or another 2k+) often uses a grid of quantum gateways and t3 massfabs, therefore reducing the mass cost for a rascom by 40% (without support)
It really is an interesting metric for measuring when you focus purely on build cost. Really tells you to get a small high grade mass farm built before RAS spam.
I also have to compare build times, but I guess that’s end of the day constructor commitment
I am now going to have to do the calculation for resource/squares. RAS being 1(sort of) versus a mass farm.
Pretty significant advantage on a small map to prioritise air/land farms.
Lots to weigh up as a >2,000 rated Com
T3 fabricators seem to have a lot of value with factory adjacency, better than a T3 mex. Fitting 4 of them around a T3 factory reduces a -22m/s job down to like 4m/s
You could also fit 4 factories around one T3 fabricator, and repeat the pattern to increase build power and receive increasing discounts.
The downside is that the entire setup is begging to go up in a chain reaction
Every time I see these fantastic breakouts, I'm reminded of that gif with Neil DeGrasse Tyson nodding along, captioned 'science, bitches'. Edit: A good followup here would be the adjacency bonuses available at T3, both power & storage.
How do the numbers compare to the T3 pgen ringed with T2 mas fabs that people are fond of?
This video was actually pretty useful but I just had an idea. when you used the ras coms WITH mass fabs you say its less efficient.... but... if you just ring it with t1 mass storage perhaps that brings the level almost t he same?.. dont buil t3 power, just ras coms, and then t3 mass fabs with t1 mass storage. i bet that literally brings it close to parity..
not to mention, the advantage of ras coms making it harder for your enemy to spot your acu is pretty useful.
the ras sacu(sacu's in general though) are alot more efficient on large water maps like setons. this is due to to them not being balanced as amphibious units so you can sit them in the water with 20000hp pools and just go around reclaiming. to further explain they are 3 times tankier permass then a atlantis which isbasically the only comparision. torp units aren't meant to do that much dmg so as soon as they are in the water your opponent has to do something really inefficient to kill them like mass torp bombers or mass torp boats
in reclaiming scenarios they can be efficient
as a source of mass income you're right though mass fabs and ras coms are inefficient and building them gives your opponent a massive advantage for a large period of time. i believe they are mostly built for build power late game to lower the need for cpm and pathing issues and they are easier to keep alive. in lower rated games/team games where opponents arent actually attacking so they let you stall until you get up a few mass fabs/ras coms you basically get a easy win unless they are able to snipe a acu/buildpower
Ras coms are better for reclaiming as they can not be killed as easily, especially under water. But for your main eco you should rely on mass fabs
The best use of t3 mass fabs is adjacency for t3 factories.
What about adjacency to Quantum Gateways building RAS coms?
Which is also called an autodestruction device. Or close enough.
@@FlorestanTrement if you get attacked
@@skoub3466 Which will eventually happen. Doesn't make it a bad idea, though. Just something to keep in mind…
A few questions: 1 what does it cost to shield mass fabs both in energy and mass, 2. what is the value of the rasboy's production ie what would it cost to build that in mass and energy.
Pretty sure the ras bois will be more efficient. If not they also aren't as vulnerable as T3 eco ot T3 pgen capped by T2 fab.
But also think about this, RAS com takes up how much space? compared to other sources of mass, you can have 20 RAS coms in a space it would take for one mas gen. This means less shielding, and significant more building potential. Should have probably watched until the end before posing this comment lol. But well put.
It's been a while since I made this video and RAS coms do have their advantages to be sure (mobility/build power/space etc). I believe I called out a few of them at the end, but the overall point I wanted to make was that they're less efficient from an economic perspective. Thanks for watching!
It simply depends what u need:
Ras Boiz: Mass, Power, Buildpower, moveable, can defend themselves. They are way more expensive masswise, but way more versatile -> u dont need shieelds or them, they can kill units, build defences and u dont need to scale up ur bp with spamming t3 engineers as much as u need with mass fabs.
Mass fabs: way more efficient, especially when build with adjancency bonus even if u calculate t2 shields in to protect them, but need more space to be build than rasboys (not really important if u dont play Dual Gap or Astro Crater
And u forgot one of the most important points:
The repay time on ras boiz is way higher than for mass fabs. A ras boy takes almost 10 mins to pay for it self. So u dont build them, if the game doesnt last for this long.
Also: U DONT build something like that in normal games. Only in noobish 1100 games or at Dual gap u build way more than t2 mass fabs around ur mexes, because the majority of the games will end before u reach such a high income. The reason they are spammed this way so often, is because nobody of the noobs know how to end orr simply win a game.
Somehow on my last 1v1 battle that lasted 20 minutes I didn't get to build those mass fabs 🤔
Did those Mas Fab figures include adjacency bonuses?
So far I haven't seen a mass fab using reclaim ;)
Can u review all game enders and super weapons
I think that the point of the video was pure economics and it oinly touched lightly on strategic decisions. Ras coms feature very often in PVP games probably because most games have a small player count (3 v 3 or 4 v 4). If you had 12 vs 12 then you would get atleast 1 player per team who would do pure ECO for the first 30 minutes and rush to the game ender phase. This wouldn't even be a turtle strategy. You could make a video on this aspect. How does player count affect ECO?
RAS Coms are mobile , can defend them self's and also produce Energy , and can build units !
I read a long time ago that FAF nerfed mass fabs to the ground. I'm sure that's why nobody builds them.
So, color me surprised to hear that they are only about 40% less efficient than a mex. I think that's a good rate.
What's not surprising is how inefficient the RAS coms are. Much of their resources are in energy, as it should be.
I think my biggest take away is that the balance of these 2 are much closer than I thought.
With any luck, people will notice this video and we'll start to see people using t3 fabs in the late game, perhaps along side RAS coms.
I don't remember what the original numbers were or when it was changed, but originally mass fabs were very efficient. They cost a lot less power to run and what are now T2 mass fabs were T1 structures so you could quickly increase your economy with the most basic engineers.
Also, mass extractors produced less mass than they do now.
What this led to was turtling and building fab farms because it was a faster, easier, safer way to increase your mass income than expanding and controlling territory and building extractors to defend.
I remember watching a replay of a 2v2 game on Fields of Isis where one team turtled, built fab farms, and in something like 18 minutes (could have been more, could have been less, either way it was incredibly fast) built a Mavor that fired 2 shots and that was the end of the game.
Mass fabs were nerfed, T1 moved to T2, and income from extractors was improved - I think it was by a significant margin.
Sometimes I miss seeing fields of shields surrounded T2 power ringed with mass fabs, but the changes had the desired effect on the game and I think it's greatly improved for it.
@@FuckYouYouFuck it wasn't FAF that nerfed mass fabs, but actually FA, what are you describing here is vanilla SupCom, where madsfabs where T1, and it was pretty broken indeed
I also heard that a t3 power generator surrounded by t2 mas fabs is more efficient than a t3 fab spam. Although I'm not entirely sure.
Great video however.
It's 20% more efficient mass wise to do t3 power with 16x t2 mass.
it take less space that make it easier to defend that's the main argument of the t3 vs t2
That used to be true until adjustments were made
Hey I love your videos, but I would like to suggest that you create a more summarized little text box or one minute section when you quickly summarize your findings, just the main points. X is better if y, or s is better if d
maybe even have your findings in the beginning to help clarify what people will see in your video/ go into the details of your testing. That way you tell your audience, what they are going to see, you show them how you found it, and you tell them again what they heard
me a seraphim: Mass fabs or.. a what?
If you have a team mate who is not seraphim, just ask them for a T3 engie and you can make your own! And give them one of yours in return so that they can build at least some descent shields.
RAS Bois fight back, Mas fabs just give up on life.
You didn't play a lot of astro whit chip :p The ras is also less draining in apm
Did they changed the resources generated whit the cybran making more e and the aion making more mass?
you also didn't mention the adjacency that mass fab can provide
Pro tip: Spam Bois 😆
t2 mass fab? good or bad to build
I'm surprised he didn't include T2 indeed as they're more energy efficient and mass efficient, its actually t3 massfabs people spam while the ras production is scaling up
better then t3 but take more place per mass generated and have less hp
t2 fabs are more efficient in mass in, and mass per power, but take up a lot more space for equivalent eco, and also they explode on death.
it isnt a matter of hit t3 OMFG GET RAS OUT !!! you transition from mass fab + pgen to ras even though they are slightly lower mass, because they can move, because they can build, because they are somewhat more durable than t3 eng, because of space issues on some maps, but very importantly which was overlooked is that you have a supply limit in the game and the mass fab pgen combo takes 2 supply + t3 eng takes a 3rd supply ..1 ras takes 1 supply so when you finally set it up per supply it is small space that every other option, only slightly less mass, in the case of aeon and cybran it is more build power than a t3 eng for the same supply cost so it actually comes out way ahead as a transition option
Why do people always do these calculations, but never include mass storage adjacency bonuses and energy storage adjacency bonuses with their generator/fab blocks? They are super cheap to make and nearly double the output of both buildings.
This is just seraphim propaganda. D-don't listen to him!