these videos are great, i want to learn supcom but in the most up to date way and your videos are perfect for learning those lil things that others no longer cover
Since this was suggested to me, and I watched it, 63 air units produced each test means no extra units to speak of, but you saved on electric cost per unit, which, if mass is overflowing, can be spent elsewhere, which is important for additional units from the land factory. Adjacency is important for when you are lacking a resource, and need to spend less of it to squeak out additional units, but that requires additional factories and/or build power to take advantage of. If you attempted this with the ground factory producing in each test, you may have fewer inties produced since you were already lacking power to begin with, and power is shared between all factories. Have fun with future experiments, TheDuelist!
It just gives a discount to build cost it doesn't effect build speed. You can build 2 airfacs, one with all sides covered by Pgens, build a light gunship out of both. They will both come out at the same time but the 100 power cost is reduced to 75 for the one with PGens on all sides. 16 PGens give 25% reduction on power costs, 12 give 19%, 8 give 13%, 4 give 9%. This is applied to all tiers of factory, however if you build a Factory next to a Mex it only gives you a reduction of 1 mass regardless of level. You also get a 25% reduction on a T3 Mass Fab by covering all sides with 9Pgens, which is 875 energy. Question is does this change at all for T2&3 Pgens? I have a feeling it will as when the T2 Pgens are on all sides of a T3Mex it gives a 50% discount (1750 Energy). Also there are all the interactions between the mass and energy Storage and the various forms of production.
You are correct that factories will build at the same speed, regardless of adjacency. I limited energy in this scenario to see specifically how adjacency impacts unit production. You'll notice through the video that I never had "enough" power to continually produce at max speed. So the test wasn't testing build speed it was testing resource abundance with and without adjacency. I need to make things more clear in these kinds of videos though :D
@@TheDuelist Surely you're just going to have whatever the energy savings worth of power was to spend on other things as you ran the first test at -25 energy and the second at -16. So you would have essentially had 9 energy to spend on the Land Fac while still maintaining the same output of the Air Facs?
@@TheDuelist Isn't the adjacency bonus effected by the location of the power gens as well? I think if you have, for example, 2 pgen's on the same side they will give less of a bonus then if they were on different sides each.
Oh shit you're right, the storages boost the power output of the pgens which in turn should boost he adjacency bonus even if just by a little That's genius!
Posting this before fully watching video :D easy analisys: ajacency is beneficial and almost free... the cost is that your stuff would need to be in certain layout and sometimes there can be travel time cost for builders to travel to be able to build stuff with ajacency. If benefits are more than cost, than just use ajacency (building air fac next to a mex is less beneficial than a land fac, at least for the case of making inties, but it is still beneficial) evaluating cost is hard so we not even gonna try to do that cause we do easy analisys :D another thing is choice... you can choose t1 pgen or t2 pgen or t3 pgen air grid for your air factories and they are pretty much mutually exlusive (i mean the layouts that give multiple connection for each factory and pgen) or you can build storages next to mex OR fatories choice is also hard to evaluate cause not only it can be dependant on situation it also can be like longterm or short term benefits and that also complicates evaluation as sometimes shortterm gains can just instantly save you you maybe... you can call them drawbacks... like you will not be able to put storages later if you choose to build factories or pgens around mex, but later might never come so it is also just kinda to hard to analise... at least to hard for easy analisys
New to this thing and was still not sure what it was supposed to prove to me. I guess adjacency bonus gives you bonus tanks from a factory which is not adjacent which meant that you got a discount on all those fighters and rest of resources went there.
Not to be that guy.. but this is not right. The land factory messes up your "time based" test. Power is divided by all that uses it relatively to their build power (afaik). And you added 20BP to that equation from test 1 to test 2, so while the power use per BP is lower on the air factories due to adjacency, you also gave each factory less power to start with. Better test would just be 1 factory or perhaps 2, one with adj. and other without...
So I posted this video when I had like 3 subscribers and was not at all mindful of my testing methodology. Not maintaining build power between tests or having a control were definitely huge flaws. I might end up revisiting this again in a future video, being more mindful of my methodology between tests.
I wasnt able to watch, could only listen, so i couldnt see the specific set ups. But, when you did the comparison. Did you have the same number of Pgens for each comparison? Cause you want the energy yield to be the same no? Like if both setups are neg energy and both total yield is 100. its a big difference between the two if they dont hold the same yield?
@@TheDuelist it's th same. Diminishing costs means that you'll have resources to spend elsewhere. This can be spend in eco, buildpower or units. In your test you basically allocate the resources into units. In this video you save 40 energy from the adjacency bonus (16+16+8) this is worth 2 extra pgen1 that you don't have to build/ spend mass and buildpower on. This results into more tempo.
Honestly, the reason why it matters is... Templates, its so easy to make them that theres no reason why to not use them, but the cost advantage makes it worth it even more.
Duh?!? Didn't you get 63 Inties out of both production runs??? Compare 4:00 with 8:20. To me it looks like adjacency bonus just increases eco efficiency, not build power.
One run I got 60 inties, the second I got 63 inties+plus land units. I wouldn't have had the energy available though to produce land units without the adjacency bonus. You are correct it does increase eco efficiency, but eco efficiency directly affects that amount of build power a factory or engineer is able to apply. So think of it not as affecting available build power, but effective build power in times of reduced available resources. Thanks so much for watching! :)
@@TheDuelist See the time stamps. Doesn't look to me like you got 3 Inties more, you said yourself you got 63 in the first run. The extra ground units are pretty self-explanatory. Doesn't want to be harsh, just got puzzled about your conclusions. :)
Seems that Adjacency bonus really only going to be noticeable if you are power locked which hopefully shouldn't be very often. I guess it could be considered a bit of a buffer to keep you from being power locked in the first place. Just anecdotally they only time I've seen this making a difference in my games is pushing out a early transport as they take quite a bit of energy for when your just starting out.
@@Vincrand mmmm maybe. But you would only notice it if your power generation was straddling the line of going negative on production, which is generally a situation you don't want to be in with energy.
@@DSzaks Personally I always look at how much power I have to use compared to mass for projects like experimentals. So before I start with it I make sure the energy overflow is above the needed energy. The adjacency bonuses help me get there quicker. Especially if I also continue to make air and anti-nuke. All the bonuses combined result in a T3 pgen I don't have to make. Early on a couple less t1 pgens needed can mean you hit your T2 massex sooner, which can snowball you.
Seems unfair comparison. Mass/Energy/Build power is a full cost of a unit or building. Even when air cost less power, if no - power it will take more time to build. How to make fair: build a lot of energy storage, then check start and end energy on storage + generated energy we calculated based on timer. That will be fair comparison. While with lack of energy you just show - with more energy deficit, less units will be build. But still it is good to see videos like that.
If you had a lot of energy stored, adjacency wouldn't do anything to your mass production capabilities, because adjacency doesn't affect build speed. You'd need a very long timer just to drain the stored energy, though I guess you could make a test to see how much longer you can build at max speed with and without adjacency.
these videos are great, i want to learn supcom but in the most up to date way and your videos are perfect for learning those lil things that others no longer cover
I play supcom FAF and I enjoyed this video, thanks. Great music and everything.
Since this was suggested to me, and I watched it, 63 air units produced each test means no extra units to speak of, but you saved on electric cost per unit, which, if mass is overflowing, can be spent elsewhere, which is important for additional units from the land factory. Adjacency is important for when you are lacking a resource, and need to spend less of it to squeak out additional units, but that requires additional factories and/or build power to take advantage of. If you attempted this with the ground factory producing in each test, you may have fewer inties produced since you were already lacking power to begin with, and power is shared between all factories. Have fun with future experiments, TheDuelist!
It just gives a discount to build cost it doesn't effect build speed. You can build 2 airfacs, one with all sides covered by Pgens, build a light gunship out of both. They will both come out at the same time but the 100 power cost is reduced to 75 for the one with PGens on all sides. 16 PGens give 25% reduction on power costs, 12 give 19%, 8 give 13%, 4 give 9%. This is applied to all tiers of factory, however if you build a Factory next to a Mex it only gives you a reduction of 1 mass regardless of level. You also get a 25% reduction on a T3 Mass Fab by covering all sides with 9Pgens, which is 875 energy. Question is does this change at all for T2&3 Pgens? I have a feeling it will as when the T2 Pgens are on all sides of a T3Mex it gives a 50% discount (1750 Energy). Also there are all the interactions between the mass and energy Storage and the various forms of production.
You are correct that factories will build at the same speed, regardless of adjacency. I limited energy in this scenario to see specifically how adjacency impacts unit production. You'll notice through the video that I never had "enough" power to continually produce at max speed. So the test wasn't testing build speed it was testing resource abundance with and without adjacency. I need to make things more clear in these kinds of videos though :D
@@TheDuelist Surely you're just going to have whatever the energy savings worth of power was to spend on other things as you ran the first test at -25 energy and the second at -16. So you would have essentially had 9 energy to spend on the Land Fac while still maintaining the same output of the Air Facs?
@@SpinewireUK Yes and no - That's a delta gain of 9 energy, despite the additional factory producing
@@SpinewireUK the savingsv were 40 energy 16+16+8 on the air factories.
@@TheDuelist Isn't the adjacency bonus effected by the location of the power gens as well? I think if you have, for example, 2 pgen's on the same side they will give less of a bonus then if they were on different sides each.
And L2 or L3 Pgens adjacency (ringed with energy storage also) around a factory gives a HUUUGE drop in energy cost per X object on a platform.
Oh shit you're right, the storages boost the power output of the pgens which in turn should boost he adjacency bonus even if just by a little
That's genius!
Cool
Posting this before fully watching video :D
easy analisys: ajacency is beneficial and almost free... the cost is that your stuff would need to be in certain layout and sometimes there can be travel time cost for builders to travel to be able to build stuff with ajacency.
If benefits are more than cost, than just use ajacency (building air fac next to a mex is less beneficial than a land fac, at least for the case of making inties, but it is still beneficial)
evaluating cost is hard so we not even gonna try to do that cause we do easy analisys :D
another thing is choice... you can choose t1 pgen or t2 pgen or t3 pgen air grid for your air factories and they are pretty much mutually exlusive (i mean the layouts that give multiple connection for each factory and pgen)
or you can build storages next to mex OR fatories
choice is also hard to evaluate cause not only it can be dependant on situation it also can be like longterm or short term benefits and that also complicates evaluation as sometimes shortterm gains can just instantly save you you maybe... you can call them drawbacks... like you will not be able to put storages later if you choose to build factories or pgens around mex, but later might never come so it is also just kinda to hard to analise... at least to hard for easy analisys
oh shit didn't realise it is an old video
New to this thing and was still not sure what it was supposed to prove to me. I guess adjacency bonus gives you bonus tanks from a factory which is not adjacent which meant that you got a discount on all those fighters and rest of resources went there.
Not to be that guy.. but this is not right. The land factory messes up your "time based" test.
Power is divided by all that uses it relatively to their build power (afaik). And you added 20BP to that equation from test 1 to test 2, so while the power use per BP is lower on the air factories due to adjacency, you also gave each factory less power to start with.
Better test would just be 1 factory or perhaps 2, one with adj. and other without...
So I posted this video when I had like 3 subscribers and was not at all mindful of my testing methodology. Not maintaining build power between tests or having a control were definitely huge flaws. I might end up revisiting this again in a future video, being more mindful of my methodology between tests.
I wasnt able to watch, could only listen, so i couldnt see the specific set ups. But, when you did the comparison. Did you have the same number of Pgens for each comparison? Cause you want the energy yield to be the same no? Like if both setups are neg energy and both total yield is 100. its a big difference between the two if they dont hold the same yield?
yes, he used the same amount of pgens. first test, the pgens were elsewhere. second test, the pgens were adjacent to the air factories.
I wondered why you kept focusing on time. Time isn't affected at all. It's about diminishing the cost to build X object.
It's how many units are produced in a given amount of time.
@@TheDuelist it's th same. Diminishing costs means that you'll have resources to spend elsewhere. This can be spend in eco, buildpower or units. In your test you basically allocate the resources into units. In this video you save 40 energy from the adjacency bonus (16+16+8) this is worth 2 extra pgen1 that you don't have to build/ spend mass and buildpower on. This results into more tempo.
Honestly, the reason why it matters is... Templates, its so easy to make them that theres no reason why to not use them, but the cost advantage makes it worth it even more.
Duh?!? Didn't you get 63 Inties out of both production runs???
Compare 4:00 with 8:20. To me it looks like adjacency bonus just increases eco efficiency, not build power.
One run I got 60 inties, the second I got 63 inties+plus land units. I wouldn't have had the energy available though to produce land units without the adjacency bonus. You are correct it does increase eco efficiency, but eco efficiency directly affects that amount of build power a factory or engineer is able to apply. So think of it not as affecting available build power, but effective build power in times of reduced available resources. Thanks so much for watching! :)
@@TheDuelist See the time stamps. Doesn't look to me like you got 3 Inties more, you said yourself you got 63 in the first run. The extra ground units are pretty self-explanatory.
Doesn't want to be harsh, just got puzzled about your conclusions. :)
@@thomaskositzki9424 I think the adjacency he gained was transformed into land units, as the BP of the land factory consumes the same power..
Seems that Adjacency bonus really only going to be noticeable if you are power locked which hopefully shouldn't be very often. I guess it could be considered a bit of a buffer to keep you from being power locked in the first place. Just anecdotally they only time I've seen this making a difference in my games is pushing out a early transport as they take quite a bit of energy for when your just starting out.
Surrounding factories with pgens means you need to spend less mass into pgens to not be power locked.
@@Vincrand mmmm maybe. But you would only notice it if your power generation was straddling the line of going negative on production, which is generally a situation you don't want to be in with energy.
@@DSzaks Personally I always look at how much power I have to use compared to mass for projects like experimentals. So before I start with it I make sure the energy overflow is above the needed energy. The adjacency bonuses help me get there quicker. Especially if I also continue to make air and anti-nuke. All the bonuses combined result in a T3 pgen I don't have to make.
Early on a couple less t1 pgens needed can mean you hit your T2 massex sooner, which can snowball you.
Seems unfair comparison. Mass/Energy/Build power is a full cost of a unit or building. Even when air cost less power, if no - power it will take more time to build. How to make fair: build a lot of energy storage, then check start and end energy on storage + generated energy we calculated based on timer. That will be fair comparison. While with lack of energy you just show - with more energy deficit, less units will be build. But still it is good to see videos like that.
If you had a lot of energy stored, adjacency wouldn't do anything to your mass production capabilities, because adjacency doesn't affect build speed. You'd need a very long timer just to drain the stored energy, though I guess you could make a test to see how much longer you can build at max speed with and without adjacency.
Game is still to much for me
IT's a tough one, but it is easier than it looks for sure.
@@TheDuelist lol well I probably kick it butt if play again. Stellaris is little bit harder I think I can take it on
@@judasromo9407 Stellaris is a beast haha. Great game just sooooooo long lol.
Yea I prefer old rts Like supcom thou
personally i hate the music you play sorry. im here to liten to you not music, if i wanted to listen to music i'd hit up spotify