Community of Christ as Church Home for Transitioning Mormons Pt 1 - Mormon Stories
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- Опубліковано 18 бер 2015
- Mormon Stories alumnus John Hamer returns to talk about Community of Christ as a viable spiritual home for transitioning Mormons in this two-part video series. John Hamer was raised LDS, but became a doubting teenager and left organized religion altogether as an adult. In 2010, he joined Community of Christ and currently serves as pastor of its congregation in downtown Toronto, Canada.
In part 1, John Hamer sits down with John Dehlin and makes the case for "non-literalistic" religion. (The presentation is illustrated with John Hamer's amazing diagrams, so the podcast audience is advised to watch the UA-cam version.) John Hamer describes how a church with Restoration roots has evolved beyond doctrine and dogma to become inclusive of the LGBT community and a wide diversity of individual beliefs.
In part 2, John Dehlin challenges John Hamer with tough questions, including whether it is possible for some transitioning Mormons who feel real betrayal to join a church that traces its origin to Joseph Smith, or, indeed, any organized religion. The resulting dialogue was wide-ranging and intensely fascinating. Regardless of where you are in your own Mormon journey, you'll surely find John Hamer's case for Community of Christ thought-provoking.
In the course of their discussions, John Hamer referenced the "Latter-day Seekers" facebook group and the website Latter-daySeekers.org.
Just attended my first meeting with Community of Christ, I felt so safe, loved and when I shared my journey leaving the LDS church and feeling so lost until my husband found this faith tradition that truly matches EVERYTHING I have always believed! Thank you for this interview. John Dehlin, please do an updated interview. ❤️😇♾️
As a fellow academically inclined queer nerd, I'm impressed, proud and overall blown away by John Hamer. John, you are such a gifted, outrageously well spoken intellectual/lecturer. I'm fascinated with your takes on everything, but especially LDS and community of Christ, you are a great inspiration and definitely have a gift for exhortation! And single handedly the reason why i am seriously exploring community of Christ
Happy to call this church my spiritual home.
Hamer is probably one of the most enlightened people today.
Baby Jon Hamer 💙 Discovered his Centre Place lectures this year. They’re great.
love this guy and he practises what he preaches.
Absolutely loved this podcast! I'm so impressed with the Community of Christ, and Jon Hamer.
Vera interesting information,
It's so refreshing to hear of a church that doesn't shame it's members & is inclusive, not exclusive (women in the priesthood, etc.)
Watching this for a second time. Truly a fascinating presentation.
I was Catholic and found the Community of Christ. Wonderful.
I’m LDS and have found Catholicism lol
@@Adam-ww8ei Hi Adam. That is wonderful! Welcome!
Thank you. I am interested in this sort of thing
Probably the pruning of membership during the debate over women left a membership more open to accepting LGBT community.
Amazing
Fascinating. Especially the portion dealing with letter vs spirit.
Great !
I am not LDS or Community of Christ - but this is solid thinking and theology. Bless you and yours!
All churches I know of believe in continued revelation. But it can never contradict previous revelation.
Mormons on the other hand don't care if a new revelation contradicts every revelation that has been before. So that is the main difference.
Your right they have thier own Revelation .. including non supportive of scripture Revelations... bizarre Revelations ... to mislead ... :. They have Revelations to Marry multiple wives to grow the cult .., then they Revelations that God is mad at women taking birth control .. then Revelations You Volunreer your kids to the cult when leaving ..Revelations that Men have the seed of life call sperm and women, children or old don't have it.. just all kinds of sick Revelations ...to expand grow and populate the cult... . just all kinds of cult Revelations..
Revelations of folks shunned volunteering their kids to the cult.. just all kinds of Cult Revelation for fast growth and money to the cult...
Sheryll Beaty Just because that's what Warren Jeff's believes and practices doesn't mean that's what mainstream Mormons believe and practice. Don't speak on things you don't know. It makes you look ignorant and bigoted.
Do you think that's for the best or is that a flaw?
@@jtzoltan That is a flaw.
@@HelenEk7 let me know how this fits in then. I was a teenager the last time I was actively Christian, but we learned basically that for the ancient Isrealites to (perhaps) the time of Christ they had The Law Administration (of Moses) that determined how they would retain the Holy Spirit and how they lived, but then Christ brought in The Grace Administration where you no longer lost the Holy Spirit when you failed to make the correct burnt offerings and such, but rather you kept it within from the moment you believed according to Romans 10:9:10.
Would that be considered new revelation contradicting previous revelation?
Very well done
So glad I joined CoC because of its theology. I do believe in the gospel itself and some aspects of Mormonism based on the Bible and I am free to do that.
Is there a good resource for learning more about the relationship between Joseph Smith III and Joseph F Smith? I'm having trouble finding much searching around the internet
Jeffrey Y I’ve looked into it a little bit, and my understanding is that they never met after childhood. I’ve been told they had some correspondence, but I haven’t found anything.
Where is this church? Any in southern cali?
I watch Hamer’s home church in Toronto on The Centre Place UA-cam channel.
@@Carelock I'm not even Mormon and not a practicing Christian (though I am found of the idea of Christ and God and seek to serve God through God works even if I don't know that he literally exists).
His historical lectures are just so good.
Really excellent presentation. What a meaningful story of your faith.
I cant believe this is the dude who created Clash of Clans 🤯
The RLDS/Reorganised Mormons does not view The Book of Mormon as historical but The RLDS also known as The Community of Christ, unlike the LDS Church, doesn't necessarily view The Book of Mormon as historical. They see it more as a product of the American frontier and a tool for understanding the divine. It's a unique perspective. The LDS/Mormons views The Book of Mormon as historical The LDS/Mormon Church, on the other hand, views the Book of Mormon as a historical record. They believe it's an actual account of ancient American prophets.
In 2014 Joseph 3rd's house was for sale. Too bad I have bad credit.
You might have bought it and found where he hid some other of Moroni's golden tablets in the basement.
Do the RLDS/Community Of Christ believe in the BoM?
Yes, but not as a literal historical record
No
The church is the bride of Christ. His church, that is.
I get it. So it's Unitarian Church, Mormon style. Anything goes, believe what you want.
Superiority complex, much? Most Protestants will believe that anyone who follows the true God and Christ are in the body of Christ, and that it doesn't really matter which church you join as long as it follows what you personally believe. It's only the super hardcore LDS church that says "our church has the truth, everyone is false and will be damned."
The problem is that LDS doctrine explicitly contradicts both the Bible and statements from early Christian fathers (who knew the Bible and Christian teachings much more clearly than we do). They never taught or believed that God the Father has a body and was once a man who grew up and attained godhood. This goes against everything Christianity taught and believes. You can try to deny this all you like, but there is no biblical scripture that supports this.
I'm LDS and love what I believe and follow as true for my life. This was a great presentation by Pastor John Hamer, but I do challenge some of the personal philosophy he espouses concerning the LDS faith. Some points to note; 1. CoC teaching of dynamic and fluidity in teachings (as opposed to claiming static doctrines), the Holy Bible alone is largely dismissive and void of this claim. The Bible contains not only doctrinal (policy, adherence in behavior) but many principles that are taught as "teachings" and are important as understanding the "commandments" of God. The level of fluidity Pastor Hamer claims for the CoC is not as prevalent at all at least in this book 2. By subjectively COMPARING LDS teachings against CoC teachings, seems to place Coc teachings ABOVE, or superior to LDS teachings while side stepping the claim by Pastor Hamer, that the CoC does not place any claim that any ONE church has the entire truth. I see this as a serious flaw in his reasoning, IF one compares one truth against another for the purpose of comparing "flaws in truth, or the FRAUD" of another, that philosophy then has to bear on the mantle of its claims. 3. Why have a CoC church body at all, if any member can repent as individually if not as a church, and follow whatever personal belief system an individual espouses? 4. Although LDS teachings advocates Apostolic teachings, revelation and doctrines, we are ALWAYS encouraged to seek out "personal" revelatory experiences in our own lives. I've done this myself, while continuing to "LOVE" others no matter their sexual persuasion, yet understanding that Almighty God encourages ALL His children to voluntarily adhere to His will if they so choose. I support God who has his commandments, for His purpose, for His reasons. 5. God has power to form natural laws, form this Earth, the universe and all that is in it, it is philosophically more correct to gravitate to singular truth, rather than multiple interpretations and subjectively interpret natural laws and spiritual moral laws by one's own experience. If what Pastor Hamer says is true about the CoC church, then they will be seeing PEDOPHILES being ordained as ministers within their church withing the decade as civil laws move in this direction in the near future. I find this disturbing, although Pastor Hamer communicates intellectually philosophical "MIND CANDY", I find it disturbing if not already, considering that virtually every claim once made by early RLDS teachings would have found the modern form of their religion "bastardized" to the NTHDEGREE. I think the CoC church will suffer greatly for losing it's original message, moral compass form God Himself and willingness to "CONFORMITY TO WORLDY VIEWS" as opposed to "GODS views". I don't find moral relativism a very good foundation at all to base one's life for all eternity, let alone, the claims of the CoC if what Pastor Hamer represents is correct. We have a singular form of GRAVITY that exists in the universe manifested, God created that law, and formed all things within its bounds. Without it, every creation of God would suffer, experience chaotic, spasmodic lives, I wonder if it would be the same experience if every human being has control of gravity itself and bend it toward our own will, what kind of existence that would be....
I'm not certain that Hamer's view would be to cater to mainstream morality wherever it goes, including the degree to which it fails to reject pedophilia. He might minister God's love to someone who confesses to having such impulses but resists them and doesn't act on them, but I don't see him embracing an unrepentant practicing pedophile for example and certainly not ordaining one knowingly.
I would not worry about what the CoC believes. You have your own problems being a member of a cult whose leaders are racists, liars, thieves and sexists!
Would it be a fair analogy to say CoC are to Mormonism what Episcopalians are to Catholics?
20-30% of the members of my evangelical church are former Roman Catholics. It seems to me that once Catholics get saved, they move in this direction without the need of gradualism. The Episcopal Church has been in heresy for over a generation and does not represent an alternative to Roman Catholics who are transitioning to Christianity. One might say that conservative Anglican churches do offer that option, but my experience was the opposite. I lost a number of friends and priests to Rome or Romish thinking. Come to think of it, there were a number of mixed marriages where a couple would go to our church and the Roman one in alternate weeks or some would go to a Roman church if it was more convenient for one reason. We do have a friend whose wife was Episcopalian and he was Roman and it seems they both settled happily into Anglicanism, but it is a real crap shoot. We really need to get people out of the Episcopal and Roman churches.
+Jeffrey Morrissey 'Transitioning to Christianity'? First lets start from the beginning. The first Christian Church was the Christian Church(Catholic, meaning universal), then there was a split between the West/East(which became the Orthodox Church(es) over the filioque clause in the Creed of Nicea, papal primacy and some other issues in 1054. So, these churches predate the Evangelical or Fundamentalist Churches for, you do the math. Then, you have the Protestant Reformation in about the 16th century in protest to corruption and abuse. Evangelicals and born again(stressing emotional experience of religion) movements are relatively recent, 18th century or so. Without Historic Christianity and Protestantism, there would be no Evangelical movement. You really can't believe that Christianity is only a few hundred years old? Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans/Episcopalians, Lutherans and others are indeed Christians.
Jeffrey Morrissey
I find it strange to think that Jesus' message came out so terribly botched that no one figured out how to practise 'True Christianity' until after the 16th Century.
I think it’s a fair comparison. I’ve been told that Episcopalians are socially more liberal. However, they are also liturgically more conservative, so I’m not sure that the analogy goes that far.
1) "Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39
WHERE ARE THE MORmON gODS?
(2) "Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." Isaiah 43:10
WHEN WAS WERE THE MORmON gODS FORMED?
(3) "'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." Isaiah 44:6
"I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." Isaiah 45:5
DOES MY GOD NOT KNOW THE MORmON gODS?
This is why I've been interested in Community of Christ. They believe in the Trinity of the Bible, not the plurality of gods taught by Smith.
He someone ignores the whole part about how Scripture is encoded. The Rabbis have only been talking about that for thousands of years. Joseph talked about how the readers have a veil over their eyes. Paul says these things must be spiritually discerned. The information is only for a chosen few. The blind continue to lead the blind.
I thinks churches need to stop wasting time talking about there differences, and more on what they can learn from each other. Just my opinion!!!
Your religion is man made. The only true word is of God which is the Bible. All this history of Joseph Smith is inconsequential. You should be teaching the word of Christ and not changing or adding to the Word. Read Revelation 22:18-19. I pray for your soul.
John Hamer really needs a haircut.
He should repent of his unnatural lifestyle, also.
But don't "hold your breath"...😂
No Exodus? Big yikes, look again.
No massacre of the innocents? Yikes my guy
its not about A CHURCH or Organization ! What a waste of time
What a confusing philosophy. If we can't trust the Word of God, then why bother with it? The gospel is true, and it is simple. This guy is as lost as anyone in mainstream mormonism. He has never encountered Jesus Christ or the True Gospel.
We are faced with two realities: on is that we can know through experience, intuition, and personal inspiration that God is real, and the other is that the "Word of God" (ie the bible) contains errors and falsehoods. The trick is charting a middle course through these two realities, which the CofC does quite well. Christians who say that there are no errors in the Bible are as lost as Mormons are, and as willfully blind.
"We have reached higher levels of enlightenment and morality that are superior to two or millennia ago." So, you are continuing the arrogance of Joseph Smith, that somehow we have evolved to know more about the human condition than Jesus Christ, who through everything was made? The created is smarter than the creator?
I think he was pointing out the fact that biblical prophets and writers said and supported things that are clearly not supported today. This includes topics such as:
- slavery (Genesis 17:12, Exodus 12:43, Exodus 21:1)
- women can't speak in church or hold church positions (1 Corinthians 14:34)
- anyone who does absolutely *anything* on the Sabbath should be murdered (Numbers 15:32-36)
and the list goes on.
Either you must take the position that:
1) God was "okay" with having slaves, suppressing women from speaking in church, etc. and, thus, it is still "okay" to do so today,
or
2) God merely "allowed" slavery and repression because these were based on biases of the people in their day (as Hamer described in the video) and that it can be changed based on the changing biases of the people and acceptance of God
or
3) It's all made up.
There may be subtle differences in stance on these issues, but one *must* acknowledge that these are real issues. Every single Christian today is a "cafeteria Christian" when it comes to accepting the bible, because there are *many* things they don't practice today that are taught in the Bible.
37:10 "The text gets distorted to preserve the idea that its literal, Swords become sticks with rocks on the end, it gets farther and farther from the intend or actual meaning of the author..." Bad example, Mr. Hamer. The actual meaning or intent of the author, whether in the 19th century or 200 B.C. wasn't to specify the composition of weapons. Not at all. So to propose ideas that coexist with anthropological claims preserves the meaning and intent of the text. They're as much an apology for modern anthropology as for the Book of Mormon. And your anthropologists have continually revised their version of history, which they don't have straight. Their version has nothing to do with the intent or meaning of a religious text. You keep allowing fears of looking foolish to back you into a corner and explain away everything good because you have no appreciation for it.
The swords rusted. They RUSTED. And they're fashioned based on Laban's sword, which was made of steel. Have you not read your Book of Mormon? Come on
LDS and CoC, these are the churches of the Great Apostacy , both are illegitimate having no authority from the Lord to exist as a church of the Lord Jesus Christ, and everyone in those churches have never had a legitimate baptism, they have changed the original doctrine of the true church they abandoned and followed false prophets, false teachers, reprobates all!