Reviewing The RIVALS in Pokemon
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- Опубліковано 17 лип 2024
- There have been good rivals in Pokemon, there have been bad... let's look into why and what could be done to help all future Pokemon games!
Music:
“Multiverse” by Wintergatan
This track can be downloaded for free at www.wintergatan.net
Free License to use this track in your video can be downloaded at www.wintergatan.net
0:00 Intro
0:20 Breaking down a rival
1:56 The problem with Pokemon's rivals
4:23 A guide to designing better rivals
8:05 Reviewing Rivals - Starting with the best of them!
11:54 Learning from others
19:59 How they could have been improved
24:18 My rant about Wally
27:05 Final thoughts
I don't think knowing very little about Hugh's sister actually detracts from anything, it's hardly uncommon for people to get upset on behalf of other people, and since she is his LITTLE sister and still appears very young in the game, it can be presumed that she was too young to really understand what happened leaving him to be the only one to realise the full weight of Team Plasma's actions, which again would make his anger pretty reasonable since they effectively harmed someone too innocent to properly understand how they were hurt in the first place.
There is a romance sidequest in Black 2/White 2 where you meet Yancy or Curtis through a lengthy series of events. Eventually, they start trading you Pokemon that are rare and also give you foreign healing items like Lava Cookies.
Honestly, a pokemon game without a rival would allow the devs to use a separate part of the battle system. In the official competitive pokemon scene, it's primarily Double Battles. It would be interesting to see a game with a player character and a buddy who do double battles together. The buddy would be able to use the pokemon you caught with you. Pokemon Journeys are surprisingly lonely and it would be interesting to see how a second character who travels with you would affect that.
And they wouldn't even have to design a new character for that - just use the opposite-gender player character.
I think N and Nemona deserved a mention as they are pokemons greatest rivals
I know! I'm sorry! I really wanted to talk about N but like I said, the video was so long already.
I think the best factors in rivals is their surprise factor and their team diversity.
Blue is fondly remembered not just for his dialogue, but also his team and habit of showing up unannounced to try and steal your lunch money with pokemon like Gyrados and Alakazam.
He knew how to build a team, always put on new members when he found them, and leveraged his ability and planning against you.
Rivals that use pokemon from areas you've explored and use rare and particularly cool and powerful ones gives an impression of their ability.
The key term is Rival. Someone who wants the same thing you want, and cannot share it. The top spot.
And in pokemon that means being undefeatable.
I think what would have helped the non- rival rivals would have been an in-game confirmation that they aren't rivals. Have them regularly state that battling isn't really their thing, maybe even say that they know how much the player likes battling, so they do it for us. Maybe give the option to skip most if not all of their fights because they don't really want to, and if you do say yes to the fight, then they give themselves really low goals. Stuff like "Hopefully I can last 3 rounds against you. "
This is perfect! Yes! This is exactly how I would have wanted them to be approached. Would have made them much more enjoyable to interact with too.
I think Nemona is the best rival we’ve had in a while, i also think that removing rivals is actually a pretty good and i think the next game should be more game changing, making it completely different from any other pokémon game.
Mmmm... Nemona was a good rival... But honestly wasnt a good champion
A question about losing to Wally at the end, which makes me question about losses in general: what would “blacking out” look like in this reboot, if at all? In certain scripted battles, it always bothered me that you could lose against a rival, “black out,” go back to that battle, and when you do finally beat them, they say, “Ugh! I don’t understand! How come you keep beating me? Why can’t I win?!” I wish the losses would have more impact is all, and there would be different dialogue options depending on who wins the battles.
To add insult to injury, in the spin-off "Pokemon Masters EX" the remix of the rivals theme from for the XY rivals (Shauna, Tierno, and Trevor) is called... "Battle! Kalos Friends". Yeah, I think even Pokemon knows that those three as much less rivals and more just kids the player is friends with lol
I really liked this video and agree with many of your points, but it's kinda clickbait and disappointing seeing Nemona, N and Cheren in the Thumbnail without hearing you talk about them. Especially since Nemona's my favorite rival.
Yeah that's fair enough, sorry. They really all do deserve a mention!
@@RadioactiveMagicGames Thanks man.
Thank you for the feedback, I have updated the thumbnail!
@@RadioactiveMagicGames That's so nice of you dude, thanks.
Okay the whole idea with Wally is amazing. But professor Birch appearing to tell you he's disappointed in you doesn't make sense. I take it you said that because of professor Oak, but Oak was disappointed with Blue for more than just his short term as champion, it was moreso for the fact he didn't treat his pokemon with enough love and care.
Yes it was more about the call back to Oak than about Birch's character or the player. Just a fun little something about how the player could suddenly be on the receiving end of that. If the game's tracked things like how well you care for and interact with your Pokemon then it would be good to hear the professor's thoughts on that too.
@@RadioactiveMagicGames that last part would be great. Honestly the only professor i could see commenting on how short of a period you'd be a champion it would be Rowan.
I think there is a strong case to be made that Norman could fill that role of disappointment in the player as they are more inclined in that area and also have a familial connection to you like Oak with Blue. So Birch and Norman both showing up at the end could even contrast how they interact with you whether you won or lost.
I think a great change of pace for a rival is having a rival who opposes you in that they think they're a better trainer etc. But their character arc is them realising that power is not everything and forming bonds with Pokemon is important. For their redemption arc the player is put into their perspective and plays as the rival for a short time. From a breakdown to a breakthrough! That way we get to see first hand that they are a 3 dimensional character
Although i agree with the wally take mostly, there's something kinda cool about you almost being the reason he quits his dream then he just shows up at the end for revenge when you probably already forgot about him, almost crushing your dream. Ofcourse he isnt written in that way but its the way I took it as a kid when ORAS dropped.
I'm so glad the algorithm suggested this to me. What an amazing series.
I don't agree with your review of Silver tbh.
He fails in a lot of boxes, especially for the gen 2 version.
His motivation for what he does is never established in gen 2, and only comes into the picture with HGSS.
He wants to become strong and prove that Team Rocket's ways are those of cowards and weak.
But the problem with that is that it has nothing to do with the player character, and we know nothing about him besides his name.
The premise doesn't make much sense either.
He is established as an outlaw, but it's never followed through as that plot point goes nowhere.
There's at least some closure to the stolen starter, but he doesn't maintain or even make an effort to stay under the radars.
He sure does have a personality, at least he grows in the post game.
But the problem with him is just how no interaction with the player ever makes him question his ways or even is ever implied to have an effect on him. Most of that happens off screen, and the characters responsible for his growth are never the player despite losing so often.
The conflict between him and the player is very superficial, and it comes back to the premise being poorly followed through and how the player has no impact on Silver.
The only reason the player would care about Silver is because he stole the starter, and that is never addressed or brought up, despite defeating him retrieving the starter is impossible for gameplay and story reasons (so honestly, what was the point?).
He is sadly not very challenging, and really does not show any substantial growth before the point of no return that is the post game.
This would make sense, since his character arc is only completed in the post-game so the growth of his team makes the most sense there.
But it is also when his character becomes irrelevant, all his encounters past that point are optional.
He doesn't challenge the player when it comes to pokemon caught or used either, they're all painfully common with the exception of the very late addition of Sneasel (a very underwhelming Pokemon, but at least very rare in GS, not so much Crystal).
His actions do not make sense with regard to what his character supposedly wants.
He doesn't believe in strength as a group, be rocket's way of multiple members or the concept of a team of trainer and Pokémon.
He wants to grow stronger, yet only claims that he just needs stronger pokemon (skipping the training part, so he is not growing at all).
He wants stronger pokemon, yet never tries to catch and use more diverse Pokémon throughout the game, sticking with the same 5 pokemon.
He wants to avoid his dad's example, yet he himself is a thief beyond the starter (a lot of NPC mention him terrorizing collectors and stealing their rare pokemon).
He never really does anything productive for his goals, only deflect the faults until he meets Lance who somehow manages to make him question himself (even though he keeps losing to the player, idk what makes that loss so different).
Unlike Blue, he's also not good as a benchmark for the player.
He never gives hints toward the next objective or even feels like he know what he's doing. A lot of encounters with him are pure coincidences that make even less sense considering Jotho's "open" design.
Idk, I don't hate him but the praises for him never made much sense to me (besides the design and battle theme).
I would like to see another video that dives into N as a rival. And maybe Nemona but less so. (I think it was too telegraphed when we would fight her. Arven came across better as a rival in just his last fight.)
I’ve been working on a Pokémon reboot universe for a few years now so coming across this series has actually made me really happy that I’m not the only one who sees potential in the reboot, albeit mine is more fantasy based and I’m nowhere near done, hopefully your series can give me some more inspo and motivation!
Awesome! I'm glad I could help!
I will say a big thing about blue is how much support he has from sequels. Blue shiws up in other games, mainly in Let's Go Eevee/Pikachu, as a nicer more mature person, and an older beother figure to the player
Amazing vidéo as always. Your content is so intresting
Thank you! I'm glad you're enjoying them!
For the X/Y rivals will compare them to there anime counterparts. Because I see them giving more personality, motivation, etc as you say in the list and I would like to see what they could offer.
Good writing and character development wins every time
I disagree about Wally, he worked because he came up so suddenly. If you were fighting him constantly it wouldn't give a huge impact as it does. The kid that you destoyed ages ago comes back and he's actually pretty strong this time. Him sticking to you entire game would just made his growth less impactful. Also it's a good in a 'The world doesn't resolve around the player' type of writing.
I don’t think GF ever acknowledged the rivals concept always calling these characters friends so the XY rivals aren’t rivals they are friends we just put them under rivals for filling the mysterious fan made rival criteria
I have a memory of them at a conference (like E3 or something) being like "and this generation, instead of one rival you have four!" And then going on from that, saying that they are your friends etc.
That can be true but I think we should go for oficial information in the official Pokémon website they seem to have changed it just look at SV they call nemona a friend not a rival the rival concept is mostly fan made
I never knew that about the plaque in the gyms in gen 1, that's actually really cool
By the end of SwSh, I almost felt _bad_ for so thoroughly crushing Hop time after time after time without him having even KO'd one of my Pokemon once.
Being champion or completing the Pokédex can be good goals, if there’s an established reason. Like how Hop wanted to be champion because he wants to prove he’s strong like Leon. Leon who’s overshadowed him his entire life.
Hugh, I think could be a better rival, if you stop him from attacking Team Plasma. Imagine if he’s going to send his Pokémon to attack and presumably kill a defenseless defeated Grunt, and you have to battle him. He’s a violent vigilante.
Well TR trio are characters people love though. And then Damian would be more a character people love to hate.
There is a romance side quest in BW2, both versions are hetero relationships in case you’re wondering
A part 2 covering more rivals like N, Avery & Klara, Nemona, and Trace would be cool
I am now extremely upset that the version of wally you've described doesn't exist
I absolutely love your series so far, so let me say I’m not saying everything is for naught, lets start with that. While I love it, I feel you also suggest some things that are staggeringly against what many people agree is wrong with the franchise (who you typically agree with), and I’m interested in your thoughts.
Story. Story through antagonist/rivals, world building, legendaries and what have you, all take set up. As in many of these require many cut scenes. And it’s a general consensus that cut scenes are over used now. You tend to mention ‘just add this or that for more world building,’ and while I love your ideas, it seems they typically are blockers for the player who just wants progress the game. So my question really is what is the remedy for this?
More optional story is always an option, but then people miss out. Forcing a story too much makes people get annoyed. Maybe a “Story mode” option where the story is empathized, and another where the story is basically gone (more for second or later play throughs). But that would take like thirty more seconds of coding that Game Freak doesn’t do.
Tl;dr: Hard and soft world building, how would you implement them to not be too “in your face?”
Really great question, thank you.
Firstly, cutscenes are, for the most part, unavoidable in a game like this where you want there to be story. Most players are used to this and are fine with it. Expect it, even. I'm not suggesting that there should be more or less story or for more cutscenes added. But instead, for more thought behind how they are crafted. If we are going to have cutscenes and story anyway, let's be smart about it.
Secondly, you ask about optional things. As I have mentioned in other videos, information hidden in the world like things you can read on a bookshelf really add a lot to the worldbuilding and yes, some people are going to miss what is optional... and that is ok! So long as it exists. Players engage in what takes their interest. There are a lot of cool amazing worldbuilding in the item descriptions in the Darksoul series, not everyone is going to read all of it. Very few ever will. But it is there. Right now in Pokemon, there is next to nothing. And these considerations can be put into how we engage with NPCs too.
TL;DR: a lot of optional details to be discovered in the world can do a lot of heavy lifting in the setup of the world and story. It's ok to let players choose how much they want to dive into it. Let curiosity drive them forward.
Blue is a motivating factor because he's condescending to you and a good enough team builder to back up his haughtiness by offering a moderate challenge. He inspires you to want to beat him.
None of the other rivals really fit that role very well, and from Gen 6 onward they're all more or less just your cheerleader squad. Having people throw every fight against you and cheer you on as the awesomest thing ever is just not very engaging.
What if pokemon games were released in Trilogies like other long running RPGs. The protag could move from what region to another and the rival could move with them. Or the region could be so big you can explore different parts in different games.
I think this would be a very solid approach to designing the games!
@@RadioactiveMagicGames also making cross generational transfer should be easier.
Hugh's conflict with you would probably be him refusing to help the ex team plasma members because of their pasts while you 'teach' him that he needs to move on a bit and do what's for the greater good
And actually, Pokemon Uranium again delves into something you mentioned here. However, what that is is basically a spoiler so…me not say publicly.
"If Pokemon is going to do Romances then they shouldn't be Heterosexually Enforced".
Well that settles the issue for me, No Romances in Pokemon ever.
Nice b8 m8
I pretty much agree with you on most points except the romance thing. Even though it is a RPG, where you "roleplay" as your character, Pokemon games are still a very linear experience, meaning you just go through the fixed story the devs have crafted for you with no choices or deviations. Thus having the choice of multiple possible relationships straight and non-straight would affect the deph of it story-wise unless it really is just as optional side thing like you suggested. But then it would be not really matter as a part of being a rival if during the whole game it could be entirely missed. Having one fixed straight canon relationship based on what gender you picked at the star of the game would be better imo as you are more like experiencing a story of a trainer on an adventure instead of yourself being the trainer and having the freedom to set up your own adventure and story. And also like this it could have more relevance to the story, but also be subtle enough not to feel overwhelming. Like the scenes with Shauna or N.
Also I feel like having non-straight relationships would feel forced, like they just did it to create some buzz and be perceived as progressive and woke. And most importantly, the game series is for children and your character is supposed to be around 10 years old. I think this is too early to cover contents such as more indeph romantic relationships and queerness. Most children at that age are not that far in development yet and I wouldn't want content in childrens media, that might affect their emotional development. If they are going into puberty, they can still discover themselves and find out about their sexuality. But don't force them to already make these decisions as young children.
Yep I was thinking similarly. They kinda already did that in Black 2 White 2 as well with Yancy/Curtis depending on your gender. It's an optional side quest that doesn't impact the story and after becoming friends it stays child friendly with subtle ques reminiscent of innocent crushes (even though they are like 15-17). The quest starter item is easy to spot and pick up. I normally did the quest along side the story since they just mesh pretty well, kinda wished they did it more often. There is a fanfic that focuses on this aspect, it's named As Fate Would Have It. I'd recommend giving it a read.
I kinda wished that we could've gotten a rival in Colosseum or XD at least.
Rivals have never worked for the very simple reason that you ALWAYS beat them every time you run into them. How am I supposed to think Blue is a tough opponent I struggle to keep up with, when I've kicked his ass 7-0 and he just keeps making cheap excuses for losing every time?
It is also why rivals that serve a more protagonistic role have worked better for me, I can genuinely feel some degree of guilt and shame for eliminating Hop from the Galar League Finals because Hop is the surrogate protagonist of the game, while I couldn't care less when Silver throws a petty tantrum that his dad is a sore loser so he hates the weak after I bashed his skull in for the 5th or 6th time in a row this week.
It helps that Rivals' inability to defeat the player has become a relevant part of their character arcs in their given games, you can visibly tell Hau or Hop's frustration every time you beat them, whereas Blue remains in deep denial that he cannot get a single win off you. The Teal Mask even turns this trope into a villain origin story with Keiran.
The one time I felt the arrogant jackass rival worked was with Bede, he starts with all the bad tropes that makes Blue a terrible non-effective rival; insists that you suck even though you always beat him, constantly brags undeservedly so, makes cheap excuses whenever he loses, entitled brat overall. But then Bede is utterly humiliated and put in his place then he's forced a big serving of humble pie when he's scouted to be a gym leader. By the end Bede is still a snark jackass but he's earned some tangible accomplishment and was forced to humble down.
I still think that the player should have been blue in Pokémon blue
I hadn't played pokemn in a while and a friend watched me play it on stream. He said bianca and the others were my "rivals' but i was like they are just friends and they aren't even on the same mission I'm on. In what way are they rivals? Lmao
A good way to make the X/Y rivals more than just talking pieces of cardboard would be to:
1. Make Trevor feel motivated to get stronger so he can handle powerful pokemon and learn more about them through battling the player. This would make him constantly change his team so that the player is given a fresh challenge each time.
2. Give Tierno stronger feelings about Pokemon battling and perceive it as a competitive form of dance. His battles could have Doubles, Triples, and Rotation Battles which could be considered the different dance styles of pokemon battling. Make him feel that battling the player is one of the few people who can give him the most rush.
3. Make Shauna pop up in places that a girl like her would enjoy going to (Lumiose City, Laverre City, etc.). In the context of a romantic subplot, have her assist the player when she's around, and then maybe take an interest in pokemon battling to see why the player is good at it. She would likely show up more and may even cheer the player on before they take on the E4. Her battles would be the least challenging, but arguably some of the most meaningful if done right.
"They shouldn't be heterosexually enforced" MASSIVE Win, massive massive win.
Love this vid, but frankly I love them all. Good job,
Disgusting
If I designed a rival I think someone who seems meek but actively pursues the best possible strategy would be the way I go.
A subtle form of pride that could recontextualize things would be if they won or lost a fight, they'd comment that they were surprised how strong you were because you *knocked out even one of their pokemon* when they were trying to prevent that entirely. Where if you never did they'd be cheerful and say you gave a great challenge but still have a ways to go.
They could also actively switch pokemon on their team a lot more, perhaps only using local pokemon and ones that are harder to evolve at the time you get them (like stone evolutions).
And they could be proactive in challenging you. Showing up at the end of a route or the next time and taunting you with a challenge. But they set the rules of engagement, such as using double battles, or X items for a fight. Something that could catch the player off guard.
They'd always expect you to fully heal first, and plan to take advantage of that with strategies like Spikes, sticky web, or leading Intimidate.
This is fantastic because I will actually be talking about rivals having a more dynamic response to the player in the next episode!
I like this Idea a lot, and think it would work really well for a more strategic Pokémon game or a hard mode.
@@PhonyLyzard The idea of it is to maybe have 2 rivals. The try hard who's always challenging you, and the more relaxed one who's the real challenge for experienced players.
The team of the lax one would be something the player could only achieve through time investment, like EV training. Possibly nature hunting. Nothing impossible but very unlikely for a first playthrough.
I would also not let you rechallenge if you lose. But since they ask before you fight you could always save for that chance. After they'd heal your team.
@@fortello7219 Sounds like a nice idea, it works really well for creating variety in playthroughs and having an optional challenge for a rival that you'd strive to defeat for more complex methods.
Algorithm bump 💐💐💐
my man really said "i dont mind straight characters in pokemon so long as they dont try to force that lifestyle on the player". go off king
17:33 I don't see how anyone can find Barry charming, he's way to hyper for my taste, probably a worse version of Hop
Nemona didn't feel like a champion level rival.
He is designed to be over the top and hyperactive which is what makes him work and keeps him distinct, it grows on you if you watch the anime. He might not feel like a champion level rival but he's well above that and arguably the strongest rival to date
I just discovered your channel and I love your content
Cheers! ^_^