Side note from the video topic. But not the video lol: you single handily sold me to pick up RabiRibi from all your talk ups. I love it!! Metroidvainia is my favorite so i love your channel to begin with lol
Nothing to do with your video but, how have I never heard of Afterimage? I keep an eye out for new metroidvanias but this one slipped by. It wasn’t until I heard you list it with other long-length mvs that I went to pick it up. So sick thanks
The term metroidvania doesn’t have a strict definition because it is a word that was invented to basically capture why Castlevania SOTN was so popular and subsequently imitated. The word means different things to different people. I like your definition because it tends to describe a subset of games that I really like. But other people may legitimately use the term in a different way. I don’t personally like procedurally generated games but I also don’t have a major problem with people calling a game like dead cells a metroidvania. That being said as far as “soulsvanias” go, I’m putting Salt and Sanctuary at the top of my list 😁
Metroidvania is a platformer with the exploring elements of Metroid and the RPG elements of SOTN. At least this was the case when the term was originally coined.
Can we not have clips from whatever that creepy game at the start of this video. Also I've never really thought they needed platforming but maybe I'm wrong
Dead cells should be considered if you ask me. The only thing it doesn't have is backtracking, which while a plus i don't think is a requirement. If you consider it one, then do you knock games that lock areas?
Telling people any metroidvania is "like" a souls game is potentially misleading, and unhelpful to consumers. Imagine saying you really like bloodborne, and someone says "oh? You should try hollow knight then." Seems pretty silly to me.
Hybrid genres have existed for ages. Puzzle platformers? Oh, it wasn't the same as puzzle games? Strategy RPG? Oh, it wasn't the same as Age of Empires? This take is not it.
@@Salacious_T Yes. If you have a problem with souls-like metroidvanias, that is a criticism towards hybrid genres. Or do you want to explain why hybrid genres is a problem in this case and not others?
can we all come togther and try to get the metroidvania tag removed from deadcells? i'm sick of steam contantly recommanding me deadcells everytime i play a metroidvania.
I don't expect non-specialist channels/outlets to know what a soulsvania is as we're pretty deep into subgenre of subgenre of subgenre of subgenre at this point. THAT SAID, if you gonna do a piece of the topic at least you should research it. But yeah MV ranking lists are generally crap and ofte feature non-MVs.
You recommended Ghost Song and I bought it based on how you described. Two other games you recommended are in my wishlist now. When are you gonna do a proper video on metroidvania inspired 3d games? Like Rise of Tomb Raider or Jedi: Fallen Order?
In order to be a soulsvania imo, a game needs to have a stamina bar, corpse running and build diversity. Those criteria explain why Sekiro is not a Soulslike btw. So Hollow Knight isn't a Soulsvania by my definition. Deaths Gambit Afterlife and Salt and Sacrifice are.
I try to look at Soulsvanias on a spectrum, too. That’s why one of my pillars was so broad (Souls-like mechanics). I will say that excellent Soulsvanias have all three of those attributes.
I understand the gatekeeping genre somewhat. Like I would also hate that kind of article. For me the essence of metroidvania is the exploration skills usually backtracking. Sure many of the metroidvanias are platformers. But I would also include 3d samus games like the switch remaster metroid games as well. I understand platformer is core part of it and ofcourse run based roguelite games like dead cells are not included. But metroid remaster has also platforming aspects heavily. I do sometimes wish you would explore and give your take also to games that are for example fps metroidvanias. Maybe we can call them metroidvanialikes or something and not harp excat puritan definiton and just analyse are they good games? Do they scratch that metroidvania itch if you are not particular about 2d graphics. etc.
It can totally be 3D! Metroid Prime is a great example, another one very recent is Pseudoregalia, that is totally a metroidvania too and it's a 3D platformer.
To be fair, I don't really know either. Until I found this channel earlier this week, I've never heard anyone ever use the term Soulsvania. Though personally, I'm fine keeping it that way considering my personal disdain of "SoulsBorne" in general and how overcontributed it is of stuff that's existed for decades before it. I swear, I can go on an entire rant about that. As for Metroidvani" in general, I hold it rather loosely instead of a concrete sub-genre honestly. It's one of those cases where everyone has their own definitions and specific criteria that I don't want to bother getting into semantical arguments over it. It's kind of why I say 2D action-platformers instead; though, even that isn't always completely accurate either. You can easily find examples nitpicking all three of those aspects. Funnily, in a related sense, I've been seeing more and more attempts to divide Metroidvania even further cause it isn't specific enough anymore. Igavania, Metroid-Metroidvania, Soulsvania here, you also mentioned Roguevania at some point, etc. Heck, as I was typing this, I just came across the term not-Metroidvania to describe those borderline examples. It's all just becoming a headache. But yeah, I agree, Game Rant does suck. For many reasons.
People dont even know what a metroidvania or soulslike are. What a culture gaming said cuphead was a soulslike imagine that. And yes its criminal if deaths gambit is not here. It even has fink aka patches. Its dark souls 2 d with better story and way way harder. Heroic bosses and heroic boss rush mode is no joke.
You say you're pretty loose about what you count as a metroidvania, but you've definitely gated some things in other videos because "nuh-uh! That's not what a metroidvania is!" I'm remembering one particular comment where you railed against a 3D game being counted despite it probably hitting your other pillars. Don't remember what it was, so I'll just substitute in Control for a questionable example. Anyway, I'm not really clear on what makes something souls-like any more because people just use it as a buzzword, but having never played a FromSoft game, my first reaction is to look at things like "is the combat very slow and skill-focused?" Souls games aren't twitchy, but by god if you push one button wrong, they punish the shit out of you. This is why the very first game I think of when I think of soulsvania is Blasphemous. Obviously, games that have a stamina meter are even more souls-y than that, but who tf wants a stamina meter in their metroidvania? That's just a 2-D soulslike at that point. What makes a good metroidvania is *movement*, and that distinct lack of fluidity is what pushes things closer and closer to Dark Souls as far as I can tell.
@@MetroidvaniaGuru Yeah, I think it's have all four, Even thought it's 3D and in First-Person perspective. If you have the chance, give it a try, it's a great game.
Found this channel and really starting to like your detailed analysis and love for the Genre , but in no way you can ever objectively and statistically put ender lilies over hollow knight , I get it that it's you're own personal and preferential tastes , but even hollow knights short comings supercede ender lilies strongest mechanic.
Thanks! I’m glad you’re here! That’s an interesting take. I’d say HK’s biggest shortcoming is its opening. Though I’m cool with it, it’s notoriously unwelcoming. According to stream, 70% of players never defeat the False Knight, and 25% don’t even get a charm. Most people who play Hollow Knight, believe it or not, either hate the game or are apathetic towards it. It just has a very loud and vocal fanbase. EL’s strongest mechanic? Probably it’s spirits. I think they’re pretty cool.
@MetroidvaniaGuru HK biggest shortcoming imo was just lack of completion , backer goals and stretch goals being so much so , they dumped what they could into it and are saving the rest for Silksong and decided to just fully make a sequel. As far as ender lilies strength you are correct.
@@MetroidvaniaGuru As you said in your ranked video that you needed 4 tries before finishing it, I had 2 tries so far. Maybe in 2 tries I'm also able to finish Hollow Knight :D In the meantime I play other Metroidvanias, but more from the Metroid inspired side than the Castlevania inspired side. Next are Axiom Verge (finally) and A Robot named Fight
Got a question here. Is it still a metroidvania if the game doesnt have strict ability gating? It kinda sucks for me that ability gating is a big identity of this genre. I dont know why its very important aspect.
It deals with the backtracking. Part of what makes the backtracking fun. For example you might see a place you can't reach but you really wanna go there because you can see a chest or something. Then later you get the double jump and you can return and get the chest and perhaps also progress to a new area on the map.
I try my best to look at Metroidvanias as a spectrum. That’s why I’m cool with The Knight Witch being called a Metroidvania, even though it isn’t a platformer. A game I consider a Metroidvania that doesn’t have ability gating would be something like Dead or School. That being said, Metroidvanias that hit all four pillars typically end up being excellent MVs.
Ability-gating is an important aspect of the metroidvania genre because it’s an important and defining aspect of the two titles that it’s named after: Super Metroid and SotN.
Gamerant always has horrible takes. Always. What they do really well is clickbait titles. I'm convinced they make the lists infuriating on purpose to make people come back and hate read their content. Eventually I figured out their game and almost always avoid their content. The rule of thumb is "if something you care about shows up with screenrant or gamerant, avoid it like the plague." When you don't care, their nonsense can sometimes be funny.
They should've waited 1 more week. Last Faith just launched and it is the soulsiest MV to date. It's exactly like if Bloodborne was 2D. It's really damn good to boot, minus some irritating bugs friends and I have encountered.
What on earth is the game at 3:40 guys ? I‘ve never seen this anywhere it looks so 🔥 damn. Probably a pc game I guess? Because I only play on console. Another great video btw!
Side note from the video topic. But not the video lol: you single handily sold me to pick up RabiRibi from all your talk ups. I love it!! Metroidvainia is my favorite so i love your channel to begin with lol
Thanks! And we always appreciate more Rabi-Ribi fans around here 😆
Nice, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles NES Overworld Theme. Driving around in the Turtle Van.
Ah, I see you’re a man of culture, too.
Nothing to do with your video but, how have I never heard of Afterimage? I keep an eye out for new metroidvanias but this one slipped by. It wasn’t until I heard you list it with other long-length mvs that I went to pick it up. So sick thanks
The term metroidvania doesn’t have a strict definition because it is a word that was invented to basically capture why Castlevania SOTN was so popular and subsequently imitated. The word means different things to different people. I like your definition because it tends to describe a subset of games that I really like. But other people may legitimately use the term in a different way. I don’t personally like procedurally generated games but I also don’t have a major problem with people calling a game like dead cells a metroidvania. That being said as far as “soulsvanias” go, I’m putting Salt and Sanctuary at the top of my list 😁
Metroid Prime is metroidvania and it is on 3D, many think only 2D games are metroidvanias
Metroidvania is a platformer with the exploring elements of Metroid and the RPG elements of SOTN. At least this was the case when the term was originally coined.
Can we not have clips from whatever that creepy game at the start of this video.
Also I've never really thought they needed platforming but maybe I'm wrong
Dead cells should be considered if you ask me. The only thing it doesn't have is backtracking, which while a plus i don't think is a requirement. If you consider it one, then do you knock games that lock areas?
Telling people any metroidvania is "like" a souls game is potentially misleading, and unhelpful to consumers. Imagine saying you really like bloodborne, and someone says "oh? You should try hollow knight then." Seems pretty silly to me.
Hybrid genres have existed for ages. Puzzle platformers? Oh, it wasn't the same as puzzle games? Strategy RPG? Oh, it wasn't the same as Age of Empires? This take is not it.
@@dondashall does this respond to anything I said? Lol
@@Salacious_T Yes. If you have a problem with souls-like metroidvanias, that is a criticism towards hybrid genres. Or do you want to explain why hybrid genres is a problem in this case and not others?
can we all come togther and try to get the metroidvania tag removed from deadcells? i'm sick of steam contantly recommanding me deadcells everytime i play a metroidvania.
I don't expect non-specialist channels/outlets to know what a soulsvania is as we're pretty deep into subgenre of subgenre of subgenre of subgenre at this point. THAT SAID, if you gonna do a piece of the topic at least you should research it. But yeah MV ranking lists are generally crap and ofte feature non-MVs.
My top 5 soulsvania are:
5 Salt and sanctuary.
4 hollowknight
3 blasphemous games
2 The last faith
1 deaths gambit afterlife.
You recommended Ghost Song and I bought it based on how you described. Two other games you recommended are in my wishlist now. When are you gonna do a proper video on metroidvania inspired 3d games? Like Rise of Tomb Raider or Jedi: Fallen Order?
Salt and sanctuary is a really good game
One of my fav MVs
In order to be a soulsvania imo, a game needs to have a stamina bar, corpse running and build diversity. Those criteria explain why Sekiro is not a Soulslike btw. So Hollow Knight isn't a Soulsvania by my definition. Deaths Gambit Afterlife and Salt and Sacrifice are.
I try to look at Soulsvanias on a spectrum, too. That’s why one of my pillars was so broad (Souls-like mechanics).
I will say that excellent Soulsvanias have all three of those attributes.
I understand the gatekeeping genre somewhat. Like I would also hate that kind of article. For me the essence of metroidvania is the exploration skills usually backtracking. Sure many of the metroidvanias are platformers. But I would also include 3d samus games like the switch remaster metroid games as well. I understand platformer is core part of it and ofcourse run based roguelite games like dead cells are not included. But metroid remaster has also platforming aspects heavily. I do sometimes wish you would explore and give your take also to games that are for example fps metroidvanias. Maybe we can call them metroidvanialikes or something and not harp excat puritan definiton and just analyse are they good games? Do they scratch that metroidvania itch if you are not particular about 2d graphics. etc.
It can totally be 3D! Metroid Prime is a great example, another one very recent is Pseudoregalia, that is totally a metroidvania too and it's a 3D platformer.
But metroid is not a metroidvania, metroid is metroid.
We were talking about Metroid PRIME.
I was about to mention Pseudoregalia lol
The fact that they left off Salt and Sanctuary alone is criminal.
To be fair, I don't really know either. Until I found this channel earlier this week, I've never heard anyone ever use the term Soulsvania. Though personally, I'm fine keeping it that way considering my personal disdain of "SoulsBorne" in general and how overcontributed it is of stuff that's existed for decades before it. I swear, I can go on an entire rant about that.
As for Metroidvani" in general, I hold it rather loosely instead of a concrete sub-genre honestly. It's one of those cases where everyone has their own definitions and specific criteria that I don't want to bother getting into semantical arguments over it. It's kind of why I say 2D action-platformers instead; though, even that isn't always completely accurate either. You can easily find examples nitpicking all three of those aspects.
Funnily, in a related sense, I've been seeing more and more attempts to divide Metroidvania even further cause it isn't specific enough anymore. Igavania, Metroid-Metroidvania, Soulsvania here, you also mentioned Roguevania at some point, etc. Heck, as I was typing this, I just came across the term not-Metroidvania to describe those borderline examples. It's all just becoming a headache.
But yeah, I agree, Game Rant does suck. For many reasons.
And don’t forget Metroid-Brain-ia. These are games that open up based on your knowledge: Fez, The Witness, The Outer Wilds, Tunic 😆
People dont even know what a metroidvania or soulslike are. What a culture gaming said cuphead was a soulslike imagine that. And yes its criminal if deaths gambit is not here. It even has fink aka patches. Its dark souls 2 d with better story and way way harder. Heroic bosses and heroic boss rush mode is no joke.
You say you're pretty loose about what you count as a metroidvania, but you've definitely gated some things in other videos because "nuh-uh! That's not what a metroidvania is!" I'm remembering one particular comment where you railed against a 3D game being counted despite it probably hitting your other pillars. Don't remember what it was, so I'll just substitute in Control for a questionable example.
Anyway, I'm not really clear on what makes something souls-like any more because people just use it as a buzzword, but having never played a FromSoft game, my first reaction is to look at things like "is the combat very slow and skill-focused?" Souls games aren't twitchy, but by god if you push one button wrong, they punish the shit out of you. This is why the very first game I think of when I think of soulsvania is Blasphemous. Obviously, games that have a stamina meter are even more souls-y than that, but who tf wants a stamina meter in their metroidvania? That's just a 2-D soulslike at that point. What makes a good metroidvania is *movement*, and that distinct lack of fluidity is what pushes things closer and closer to Dark Souls as far as I can tell.
hmm yea those two def should have been mentioned.
Does Supraland count as Metroidvania?
I haven’t played it, but if it nails the four pillars of an MV, I don’t see why it wouldn’t be.
@@MetroidvaniaGuru Yeah, I think it's have all four, Even thought it's 3D and in First-Person perspective.
If you have the chance, give it a try, it's a great game.
Found this channel and really starting to like your detailed analysis and love for the Genre , but in no way you can ever objectively and statistically put ender lilies over hollow knight , I get it that it's you're own personal and preferential tastes , but even hollow knights short comings supercede ender lilies strongest mechanic.
Thanks! I’m glad you’re here!
That’s an interesting take. I’d say HK’s biggest shortcoming is its opening. Though I’m cool with it, it’s notoriously unwelcoming. According to stream, 70% of players never defeat the False Knight, and 25% don’t even get a charm. Most people who play Hollow Knight, believe it or not, either hate the game or are apathetic towards it. It just has a very loud and vocal fanbase.
EL’s strongest mechanic? Probably it’s spirits. I think they’re pretty cool.
@MetroidvaniaGuru HK biggest shortcoming imo was just lack of completion , backer goals and stretch goals being so much so , they dumped what they could into it and are saving the rest for Silksong and decided to just fully make a sequel. As far as ender lilies strength you are correct.
@@PChampoo And now we wait for Silksong 😔
@@MetroidvaniaGuru As you said in your ranked video that you needed 4 tries before finishing it, I had 2 tries so far. Maybe in 2 tries I'm also able to finish Hollow Knight :D In the meantime I play other Metroidvanias, but more from the Metroid inspired side than the Castlevania inspired side. Next are Axiom Verge (finally) and A Robot named Fight
@@MaxMustermann-dl4pd Nice! I’d recommend Outbuddies DX. Very Metroid inspired.
I think another criteria of souls vania is the hideous enemies 😅
Got a question here. Is it still a metroidvania if the game doesnt have strict ability gating? It kinda sucks for me that ability gating is a big identity of this genre. I dont know why its very important aspect.
It deals with the backtracking. Part of what makes the backtracking fun. For example you might see a place you can't reach but you really wanna go there because you can see a chest or something. Then later you get the double jump and you can return and get the chest and perhaps also progress to a new area on the map.
@@johanandersson8646so it is still for the backtracking aspect?
@@soratheorangejuicemascot5809 not necessarily
I try my best to look at Metroidvanias as a spectrum. That’s why I’m cool with The Knight Witch being called a Metroidvania, even though it isn’t a platformer.
A game I consider a Metroidvania that doesn’t have ability gating would be something like Dead or School.
That being said, Metroidvanias that hit all four pillars typically end up being excellent MVs.
Ability-gating is an important aspect of the metroidvania genre because it’s an important and defining aspect of the two titles that it’s named after: Super Metroid and SotN.
Can someone tell me what game is that at 3:40?
It’s called Worldless, my friend 😊
Gamerant always has horrible takes. Always. What they do really well is clickbait titles. I'm convinced they make the lists infuriating on purpose to make people come back and hate read their content.
Eventually I figured out their game and almost always avoid their content. The rule of thumb is "if something you care about shows up with screenrant or gamerant, avoid it like the plague." When you don't care, their nonsense can sometimes be funny.
They should've waited 1 more week. Last Faith just launched and it is the soulsiest MV to date. It's exactly like if Bloodborne was 2D. It's really damn good to boot, minus some irritating bugs friends and I have encountered.
The graphical style doesn't appeal to me, but with a description like that, I'll have to check it out once I get done with Afterimage.
Game Rant is trash.
All of their articles are this level of "quality"....
Games "journalists" doesnt know anything about anything.
😂
lol say whats up gamers more!!
It felt gross saying it lol
@@MetroidvaniaGuru Who knows, it could become your new catchphrase one day.
@@Mizufluffy 🤢
A woman probably wrote it
I will always say Hollowknight is better described as a Metroidborne than Soulsvania.
What on earth is the game at 3:40 guys ? I‘ve never seen this anywhere it looks so 🔥 damn. Probably a pc game I guess? Because I only play on console.
Another great video btw!
Thanks!
That game is called Worldless. It’s out on Stream now and will hit consoles on November 21st 👍
@@MetroidvaniaGuru thx for the headsup! This looos absolutely incredible