The Problem With "Soulslike"
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- Опубліковано 18 лют 2022
- Look, I like Dark Souls as much as the next guy but...
Been on a recent From Software binge playing through Bloodborne, DS3, Demon's Souls Remake etc. and I got a bone to pick with some of ya'll. Whatever hard game it is you're thinking about, no, it is not the "Dark Souls of-" anything.
Hyped for Elden Ring tho
Also no, Pokémon Legends: Arceus is NOT a soulslike just cause the mf can DODGE ROLL.
And yes I know the Demon's Souls gameplay is from the PlayStation 5 remake, not the original. I don't have a ps3, let me live.
fire video. subscribed, liked, commented, clicked the bell, shared it to my family, played it at my grandma's funeral (she was resurrected), this video cured my stage four terminal cancer, my depression, and fixed my unrelenting habit to call shitting while constipated a souls-like experience. cant wait to see more
Love to see it, hope the wife stops cheating too
KKJKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK
That made me laugh so hard
S tier comment
Saying Souls like is like the Darksouls of saying jojos reference
Poker is like the Dark Souls of Uno
Cheating is like the Dark Souls of a faithful relationship
Killing someone is the Dark Souls of hiding from the cops
War is like the Dark Souls of Airsoft
shit is the dark souls of piss
Not studying for a final is the dark souls of education
The real problem is that most developers miss the real point and don't even put a single barefoot maiden in their games, like c'mon guys! it's called soles like for a reason!
The real soul of dark souls
The sole reason dark souls is dark souls is the sole dark soles of dark souls
@@Roggoll you hurt my head
It's spelled "souls" not "soles" so don't be mad at From Softwhere.
@@mrjorsh you must be fun at parties..
"Souls-like parenting" killed me. Very souls-like humor.
Really caught me off guard
Gotta roll through them attacks
@@pepperidgefarmsremembers92 don't forget to summon as well
Your comment is very souls like.
@@Yousef77077 Your reaction to that comment is very souls- like.
Fun fact: FPS used to be called "Doom clones".
Open World games after Grand Theft Auto 3 were GTA clones/killers
Saw someone refer to Ultrakill as a "Doom clone" and goddamn I died inside
@@tehcodekid8421 tbf according to 1990s standards it is
Maybe 2 people you knew called them doom clones but that was definitely not a popular thing. People didn't even use the word clone like that back in the day, gaming was way too new. Not to mention most popular shooters for years were ID Software games(Quake, Doom, Wolfenstein) so what you are saying makes even less sense. Counter-Strike popularized the FPS genre and by that time most players didn't even know Doom exists. The clone topic got a main start with open-world games after GTA clones started popping up like Saints Row 1.
@@MartinWasTaken
"Maybe 2 people you knew called them doom clones but that was definitely not a popular thing."
Then what did they call them?
"People didn't even use the word clone like that back in the day, gaming was way too new."
Which decade are you referring to?
"Counter-Strike popularized the FPS genre and by that time most players didn't even know Doom exists."
Sounds like someone doesn't understand the history of FPS-type games. Windows 95 was literally marketed as being able to play Doom.
I am calling abusive households: "soulslike parenting" from now on
Do,it is,I survive,it's not actually a joke.
It's not a troll,I don't have freinds/rights,getting rights means force,force means hurting,hurting is a big risk=it's not because of getting attacked back by the 1 I'm attacking,inperiam and rebellions 40k.
@@soccerandtrack10 Skill issue
@@averagemexicanm8750 fr he just needs to block, parry, and dodge
Except its only challenging but forgets the fair part
"Demons Souls is the Dark Souls of Souls games" is something my friends and I like to say to mock the over-use of soulslike
You have friends????
@@megabruh8878 his friend is the dark souls of friends
Oddly enough in reality Dark Souls 2 is the Dark Souls of souls games
Elden Ring my favorite souls-like now
Wow you're so smart
I'm a huge fan of soulsbornekiroring and i'm so glad miyazaki invented difficulty, this is truly a soulsbornekiroring moment.
I personally loved it when he put Morbius in Elden Ring as a summonable NPC and said, “It’s Morbin’ Time.”
@@HaydenHero morbius in 2024 is crazy
He didn't invent difficulty he just revolutionized it
@@littlenugget7946 Why am I reading this in the Northernlion voice
@@cthulhu4411right and even that is false
Fromsoftware has not done anything unique its just that casuals dont play anything more than fifa madden cod so this is what happen
your voice is so calming i fell asleep, not in a bad way.
you could talk about your what tea you like the most and i would still listen
The first and most influential videogame of all time is Pong, so I'd say Dark Souls is a Ponglikelikelikelikelikelike-lite
The way you must time your paddle to hit the ball at the right time, timing your dodge roll is basically the same exact thing. I can’t believe Miyazaki could be so unoriginal
You view Pong with a screen, and you view Souls with a screen as well. Honestly shameless.
Based shinpachi pfp
@@jojonta2119 based Hollow Knight battle stance pfp
@@silvergotrekt You're alive when you are playing pong, and also when you're breathing. Never realized life was a ponglike
Everyone knows that Kirby's Dream Course was the first Souls-like game. Why do you think Miyazaki made Mimic Tear the strongest thing in the game? Because Kirby does the same thing and he's the strongest character in fiction. I rest my case, OJ didn't do it.
Ah jeez, oh fuck I didn’t even think about that. This whole time I was thinking summon slender man at 3:00am challenge was the first soulslike experience
My first souls like experience was living in the inner city,
@@illeagle9560 damn bro. My uncle gave me my first soulslike experience
@@NasuPrime Uncle Lester?
@@illeagle9560 yeah man :(
hey Nasu! great video bro. just love the tone of your voice makes it so easy to listen, and i really admire this presepective and agree with it completely. even as a hardcore fromsoftware fan i agree that putting lables on any artform limits the potential of its creators and also tunnels the expectations of what people think a game Shoul be played like. beautiful talk. thank you!
this is the exact premise of my research paper im writing for college and helped me a lot for points i wanted to cover, thank you !
In Japan they are called "shinige" (dying games or something like that), games where dying and coming back, learning from your mistakes is part of the mechanic and usually it's implemented in the story as well.
Coincidentally, we've also got Sekiro that implements these fundamentals too
@@JimmyPizzaDelivery How dare Sekiro by FromSoft copy Dark Souls by FromSoft. Are there really no original ideas anymore? smh
@@majortritone armored core🙁
Wow🗿
Literally NES and SNES boss rushes (unless you mean in the story the character is immortal).
Remember when all FPS games were called "Doom Clones"?
Edit: The point I tried to make here is that as the FPS genre evolved, Doom's copy-cats took fewer and fewer elements from the Doom gameplay loop. As a result, the only similarities Doom shared with these other games (post-1996 when "Quake" was released) was that they were in first person and had shooting-based combat, thus narrowing down the definition to an extremely flexible category.
As for how this relates to Souls-Likes, FromSoftware made more and more changes to the Dark Souls formula in subsequent games, adding and subtracting various features, like adding rallying in Bloodborne and removing the stamina bar in Sekiro. As a result, we ended up with games that played very differently as a whole while still having the same core mechanics.
History repeats itself
Those are called boomer shooters
@@Eking-su3tr I would argue that "boomer shooters" are a different thing; I think of a boomer shooter as a game made in 2020* or later trying to emulate a FPS from the early 90s, but often with even more action added to the gameplay as if to set itself apart as self-aware. (And also to not be confused with an old @$$ 'doom clone'. *I did reference urban dictionary)
Thanks for reading 😄
@@Eking-su3tr boomer shooters are something else, like that dusk game
Bcs most games that came out right after DOOM and were FPS were literally DOOM clones
I agree with everything you said, but i can see why games cling to hard to tags and genres and sub-genres compared to movies. As games live from their interactivity, it is harder to judge what they are all about from just watching images or a video about it (And there might be hunderts of hours of game experience in it, how do you describe all that to somebody else?), so tags and genres help to identify quickly what this game is all about. We should not do it and let games stand for themselves, but languages always tries to be simplistic and efficient, so when i recommend games to my friends i will probably say something like: "Yeah try that game it is like darkest dungeon, but has a bit more metroidvania in it."
Which game is metroidvania darkest dungeon? Sounds right up my street
Exactly, noone complains about the "Metroidvania" tag.
But this video is a complain about "soulslike"
We do the same with music and film. By talking about themes, pacing/rhythm, directors/producers and so on. His point is about inspiration and making a new subgenre specifically because it uses a dodgeroll.
Edit: dunno why I typed this. I can see you say the exact same thing as I did, but better. I'm just high, sorry
@@TheOUTSIDER1995 nobody complains that lords of the fallen would be called a souls-like. But nioh? Eh. Hollow Knight? Not even close. Etc. You don't call battlefield a ''doom-like'' eventhough it is probably more reasonable to do that.
It makes me think of music genres. I listen to EDM mainly, and the amount of subgenres that can be classified by something as simple as an extra kick in the drum pattern or what types of bass sounds they use is absurd. Like I get it, it makes sense to categorize things so you can find more of what you like, but it sparks some really dumb genre arguments that ultimately lead nowhere lmao. I hear the same is true with metal subgenres.
This was too funny, I swear these videos are motivation for me to wanna put out great funny and amazing content myself
2:20 abused by your parents? Sounds like a skill issue. I could parry dads belt by the age of 9
Me personally, I just dodge roll. That’s just me tho
@@NasuPrime i just go hollow
@@faku1350 don't you dare go hollow
@@faku1350 No cost too great...
"Yeah, just git GOOD!!!"
Bro... as someone who completed Cuphead, that person not being able to get past a NORMAL video game obstacle hurts me on a physical and mental level.
This alone, after 2 years ago since I quit cuphead because of the froggies boss, once I literally had been seeing these FUCKING obstacle clips, I had to come back to prove I ain't 50% just like them, and now cuphead is at my top 5 games of all time
It's important to know that the same journalist that infamously couldn't do that tutorial also ended up finishing the game later on and gave it strong praise and recommendation.
I literally cannot belive that he was being serious, that review had to have been a joke or he was having a stroke or something there isn't a fucking timeline in the multiverse where a child can't jump that one obstacle, let alone a grown ass man who gets PAID to do it
most likely did it on purpose
@ROSENROT not rlly important
Incredible video, can't wait to see your other content. You're an amazing content creator.
I always thought a "soulslike" game was when enemies respawn each time you "rest" or level up, and losing your level up points each time you died. Dark Souls was the first game to introduce me to those mechanics.
Yes, it is what it is.
Final someone who understands it
I always thought of souls like games having the same/similar combat mechanics, leveling sites, and respawning enemies.
The 3 main soul mechanics
That actually sounds more like a Metroidvania or a Rouge-like. But I don't know if there are older games than Rouge that already had those mechanics.
So mincraft souls like?
“and really makes you feel like you have the exaggerated swagger of a medieval fantasy protagonist” is probably the best thing ever said
it is one of the things that makes sekiro feel so good, you feel like a shinobi
*poise
great video, love your sense of humor
That Gris music caught me off guard and almost activated the tears fountain, how dare you. Very thought-provoking and well-structured video, was a pleasure watching.
It's really sad any time a game that hard is instantly a souls like even if there nothing alike
Chess is a soulslike frfr
@@NasuPrime real life is soulslike Sadge
@@roghider3552 I mean, it kinda has the same hollow mechanics tho
@@roghider3552 if you think about it though, real life is the best soulslike you'll get
@@NasuPrime chess is easy, I beat my 5 year old cousin every single time
As stupid as it sounds, I would have thought part of the things that make something “soulslike” would be the fact of dying and losing your souls/runes or whatever it is
I mean you're correct. Souls like games punish you for dying. Most people assume that punishment is going back to a save spot, then progressing through areas you've been before until you reach the point you were at. But souls/runes also belong in that category. You lose some of them when you die, and you have to fight more enemies till you get the amount you had before
I don't think it should be the case, survival games tend to do that where you lose all your gear and then have to go back for it. Even MMOs like Perfect World International, you'd lose your experience points when you die (but dying wasn't as easy).
The problem is that souls games do something so particularly engrained with the game itself, it's hard to pick it apart to see what the real essence of a souls-like game is.
I think for me what makes souls-like games is having all enemies you defeated respawn after you sit at the checkpoint, otherwise you can kill everyone and as long as you don't use checkpoints, nobody would respawn. That's the core mechanic, the game revolves around that, because now you can choose to rest and redo the whole challenging (or easy) enemies all over again, or keep exploring without reviving anything but risk getting ambushed while low on resources.
Have you played Stranger of Paradise?
It checks a lot of souls-like elements, except it's linear and level-based, and you don't lose anything other than the magic you've accumulated from other fights, so your definition of dying and losing souls isn't exactly valid in that way anymore.
Either that, or my definition is wrong and stranger of paradise is not a souls-like.
i think that cycle is part of it, but there's also certain gameplay quirks that make a game feel like a souls game
i-frame dodges being central to combat, favoring calculated attacks over combos/flashy moves, etc all kind of set dark souls apart from hack-n-slash and character action in interesting ways
but then that leads me to ask: why isn't monster hunter a "soulslike"? what genre is it, and why aren't they lumped together somehow?
probably the core gameplay loop like you said
Is Terraria soulslike then?
*Minecraft is the dark souls of sandbox games*
GREAT video! Saw some cool looking games i had never heard of before! 😄
I just love Soulsbornekiroring games so much❤
I love darkmonsekbornringsouls so much
Why do people call it soulsbornekiro when soulsborne die twice sounds so much better?
Soulsborne die twicen ring
Soulsbornering die twice
Or Eldensoulsborne die twice
Demon’skirosoulsbornedie twice ring
@@mayonnaise2396 I think demon is included in the souls
I'd rather just call it soulsborn
I think "Soulslike" will eventually give way to a proper genre name, after all, every first person shooter used to be a "Doom Clone"
dark rpg i think, drama rpg, i dont know, souls like for me is just aesthetics, every soulslike has the dark atmosphere, but the rest is just rpg
@@RastQwQ too vague. dark fantasy + rpg encompasses a lot. soulslike gets the point across and rolls off the tongue.
Yeah I'm currently still in that process with stuff like Minecraft clones versus sandbox games
@@billjones642Elsa doesn't really describe what the game is about souls like genre games have aesthetic writing and game design conversations to them that make it unique
Shame that it already existed and everyone knew. It's masochism. Call a space a space.
Hill of Tartarus is a nice name for the genre. Referencing the everlasting pain we make ourselves get through.
This video genuinely changed the way I think about game genres so much, thank you for this. I really appreciate it.
oH come on lmfao
💀
the problem with "soulslike" is it gets slapped on any game that has any similar mechanics no matter how unique the game is. the only soulslike i've played that feels anything like a souls game is code vein, and that's because it is literally just anime dark souls
This implies that dark souls isn’t already anime
Lmao yeah just slapped it in real life because it's soulslike too
Dark Souls is a Ninja Gaiden-like with less combos
The funny thing is DS1 crowned the "soulslike" genre *specifically because* it was so unique it was like nothing that came before.
Slapping the genre onto any difficult game ironically goes against the game's very nature as a genre-defining game.
Well you do have games like mortal shell, lords of the fallen, and remnant:from the ashes (i think thats what its called) which do obviously deserve that label, its a very real sub genre now
“When developers stick firmly to a blueprint, they’re designing backwards, creating a game that conforms to establish game mechanics rather than designing elements that’ll best compliment their game.” This is a brilliant quote, and has been at the forefront of my mind as I try do create my own small, passion projects.
Idk, sometimes the mechanics are the most appealing part and it would ruin the experience to change it too much.
The irony that Souls games follow their own blueprint though ...
@@portofthoughts4477 Not really. Sekiro and Elden ring have such massive differences it’s hard to say they follow the same blueprint as the dark souls games.
@@chaytonhurlow840 it would ruin *your* experience. if you prefer games that stick to the conventional "soulslike" blueprints, that's good for you. many people want there to be more creativity and originality, not the same game over and over in a different font.
there is an expectation that game devs have to conform to these mechanics no matter their core ideas, or that they have to mould the design into something that fits a genre name.
Games don't have to be the next dark souls, rogue or metroid- they just have to be the next game, and mechanics do not make up everything a game has to offer. there is so much more to every title than just the soulsborne design
goodluck on your projects! i've always wanted to make a game, but i have no idea how to code... i'm more interested in doing the art side of things :)
Feeling like I have the exaggerated swagger of a medieval fantasy protagonist is exactly why I love Dark souls, among many reasons. You hit the nail on the head my guy
good quality content plus good critique, thanks for the video man
I don't think that people are calling "Rouguelikes" like that because they are derivatives of Rogue, but more because Rogue was the first game with random level generation and that forces you to restart from the beginning if you die, so it's more like people defined a genre with those specific characteristics and named it "Roguelike" in honor of the first game that brought those on the table
If a game does not have those two characteristics it is not a "Roguelike", just like a film that doesn't evoke fear isn't an "horror", that's why the term "Roguelite" was invented, to classify games that don't force you to restart completely anew every time you die, instead having a semblance of slow overall progress, wich admittedly made them more popular than regular "roguelikes"
Same with "Metroidvania", people usually use it to refer to any 2D open world game with zones blocked behind certain abilities, but it usually isn't for comparing it directly with the source material, but instead to say that: "it's a 2D game that instead of many levels it has a big map with certain zones blocked behind certain abilities", so unless it ticks all of those boxes it isn't considered a "Metroidvania"
These terms serve to help define what the game is about, because to a game there's more than just "horror" and "thrill" there is also gameplay elements, people use these terms to quickly describe what's the feels like, just as they would use "platformer" or "RPG"
The problem with "Soulslike" is that dark souls has too many characteristics, wich makes it unclear wich of them are necessary to define a "soulslike" game, so people just began to give that adjective to any game that had any of those characteristics in it, and that instead of using it to help define a genre, but mostly to "accuse" other games, as if using any of those elements was bad in any way
That last point spot on. Ask two different people was “soulslike” even means and chances are you’ll get two completely different answers
I think what everyone that enjoy From Soft games can agree with is that they are not hard per say. They are simply a fair challenge. And that the essence of the experience they give you is the experience of leveling up yourself, not your character.
@@16m49x3 "Fair challenge" does not always hold true in Fromsoft games but yeah the difficulty isn't the selling point and Miyazaki has even said that it's not purposefully hard, he just needs difficulty present to tell the kind of story he wants to tell.
@@gaszwyn449
Theres very few challenges that are not perfectly managable with some knowhow.
There's people running these games without taking any dmg
Yes and no. Roguelikes are also tile and turn based. Just because your game incorporates random level design and perma death features with meta progression doesn't make it a roguelike. Caves of Qud, Cogmind, Tales of Maj Eyal, etc. are all traditional roguelikes that follow that original game design and choice. There is an important distinction between roguelikes and roguelites.
It also has managed to trap fun action gameplay in dark settings.
Heck, I'd go so far as to say the better the 3D combat system, the more it's expected to be in the goriest most gritty style imaginable.
see the problem is when i read this i tried to imagine a bright game with this combat. I imagined a princess fighting bright fantasy creatures using candy weapons. and then imagined her using a sharpened giant candy cane as a pike and fucking shit up. Its just cooler
@@trumanbadra8003 even a more balanced fantasy would work
It’s crazy how just today I was thinking exactly about this (the way game genre names are just about comparing games to others that came before)
You did a great job on this Dunkey-like video. Thanks.
It’s very Strand-like in a sense
Owned
It really made you feel like batman
More of a Dunkey-Lite given he didn’t mention Super Mario Brothers 2
It was Dunkeylike-like. A little bit but not much
I loved it at "We all know difficulty didn't exist until Miyazaki invented it in 2009"
It really feels like there is just this shared mass psychosis over this game. It is literally just a moderately difficult medieval fantasy game that doesn't have a baby mode. I have no fucking idea how it became synonymous with difficulty.
Me too. Even Hitman: Codename 47 was harder than any of souls
@@user-ey5xw2nx9s Commercial success in Western countries, I'd reckon. While Hitman, Touhou etc. were surely harder, Dark Souls sold 33 Million copies, Hitman C47 just half a million.
Because of the learning curve\the game not explaining much. Makes it seem harder when you first try it. Also dying alot being an intended part of the experience. For alot of people who played this was their first experience with those kind of mechanics
You've obviously never played a souls game if that's your analysis of the games
@@elijiahcater7043 i've platinumed all of them. Probably run through DS1 8 or 9 times at this point . They're not easy but a lot of games are harder. Also if you select a game at random with difficulty settings and pick a higher one, it will be harder. People just get mad as fuck that they have to think a little bit about their actions.
Thank you for this, I always thought 'rogue-like' were just games featuring a rogue character class, and I swore I've heard 'lite' hundreds of times from others but thought maybe i heard different, but it was about a game 40 years ago, which I think people who use the term 'rogue-like' has ever played, thank you for being with me in this journey of understanding.
I think part of the problem is when a game comes out and gets labled as something because it shares things; it is automatically compared to the game prior. This can be a bad thing becauae some games would be seen as better if they werent compared to other games just because it is similar in some ways
See, this is also my problem with “lifelike” items. The cops always come around and say things like, “man, that manakin is so lifelike,” and “what lifelike hands your doll has.” It’s really frustrating both because they’re always bothering me, and my art of taxidermy never gets the appreciation it truly deserves.
Oh.
Not meaning to be rude but what type of comments would you like to receive? Isn't taxidermy about bringing the object as close to the real thing?
@@darkshat3077 It was a joke. He's making the joke that he does taxidermy with people's bodies.
@@agentj3627 I’m stupid my bad
@@agentj3627 idk why I read that and thought it was completely normal till I saw your comment lmaoo
It's just a matter of convention. When someone asks you "what kind of game is x?" You can say that it is sort of soulslike in combat but with emphasized platforming for example. Linguistic tools like these are always handy to express fairly complex concepts without going into too much detail, and that's what it is all about.
I can't agree more.
THISSSSSS. I have a friend that just HATES it when game reviewers and journalists compare video games with each other while talking about them. Like ''this game is like breath of the wild, but with some rouguelike elements yadayadayada'' ''this game is very soulslike and also has metroidvania style progression'' ''this game is like X game and Y game had a baby!''
He hates it, and he's all like ''does every game with grass have to be a breath of the wild??'' ''Did fromsoft invent difficulty???'' ''is Jazz in a videogame automatically a Persona 5 inspired game???''
The thing he doesn't get, is that you can't explain all the nuances and intricacies of every game, let alone a new and never seen one. We as human beings use language as a way to communicate to others why a game out there might be similar to something else and in doing so, maybe informing them if a game is for them or not.
There's a popular game out there, so you compare new stuff to it when they're similar in order to convey as much info in a short amount of time. People don't really have all day these days.
Thing is, he looses sleep over people mislabling games and comparing games when they're not THAT similar. Like people calling hollow knight a soulslike. I mean, I get it, there's people out there calling it the wrong way, but who cares? have fun.
@@joshuaroa8503 I think the problem is when someone knows the game and someone who doesn't know the game.
When you compare to many games that don't make sense in compering them you get bit warped perception for the game.
If one described hallow knight as souls like but 2D, it sounds weird to someone who knows the game, if would just been better to say that it is a metrovenia. Metrovenia games have different combat from each other, like Death's Gambit to La-Mulana.
That’s understandable within a conventional conversation between people but when it comes repeatedly from game reviewers or people that call them self that it’s extremely lazy
@@joshuaroa8503 I do think it can turn into a lazy way of describing though. Dead Cells is referred to as a 2d dark souls when in reality it's a lot more like a hack'n'slash fused with Ninja Gaiden. ANY open world 3d game is referred to as BOTW clone. It's not the comparisons, it's that the community then warps it and starts calling games clones for little reason and gatekeeping over the genre(e.g only good difficulty game is dark souls, because the others are clones)
your mic goes so hard it left me bleeding a pool of my own blood and dead skin
I have just started trying to create a video game, and have been describing it to my friends when I tell them, I want to take this aspect of Metroidvania. Still, also I want to take this from a souls-like game, can't seem to understand that I don't want to be constricted to the borders of what people have already done, and they tell me, "Well you can't do that, then it's no longer a Metroidvania!" I am trying to be creative and unique, not same-old same-old, this video inspired me greatly, more people should watch this, it certainly inspired me to not be repetitive, and to create something new.
I remember that it actually pissed me off when I was enjoying Hollow Knight because of the atmosphere and exploration and a friend of mine came out saying that "Cuphead is just better because both are games about evading difficult attacks but Cuphead has better looking graphics"
as someone who 100%ed both games, what the fuck was your friend talking about
@@justarandomguy983big thing is, that person never played HK and the only footage they've ever seen are pantheons.
Wtf he most definitely hasn't played hollow knight lol
@@justarandomguy983😅
Nothing wrong about having an opinion, both games are amazing.
good video, subbed. Thank you for pointing this relevant issue out without sounding aggresive or using lame arguments
Preciate it man. And yeah level headed argument definitely helps when tryna argue something. Loose labels and generalizations are somewhat of a pet peeve
@@NasuPrime Unrelated but what is the outro song? I may be blind and didn’t see it in the description
@@FeelsGrimMan any special orders from dmc5
With all these new genres that look suspiciously familiar, I thought I don't know games well enough... But thanks to this video I understood that it's just that people don't bother to look back 10 years and god forbid more😭😭
When I opened Dark Souls, it reminded me of the old pixel platformers, but in cool graphics. ngl, the experience is frustrating, but at the same time kind of nostalgic. It appears that I've been missing the times when I knew the levels by heart😁
That intro is hilarious. Never forget lol
2:10
Then she took the kids, the house, all my money, and feels like my soul too.
Soulslike?
This was a very video and made me feel emotions. I will be calling all videos like this Nasulikes from now on.
Honestly valid. Too many Nasu clones on this website
It was so nice to listen you thx
Awesome video man
The "aspects" of a souls game
-limited healing
-stamina bar
-emphasis on animations
-storytelling through experiences
What should define a souls game
-groundhogs day. Fight die learn
After I beat sekiro, I looked into ghost of tsushima. I looked into reviews and people called it a soulslike. And it was a very similar game.
It's japanese... that's all there is that's similar between these 2 games.
Ghost of tsushima would be closer to batman arkham and assassins creed.
People try to piggie back on the bacl of the success of other devs.
Just look at what the dceu tried to do, copy the mcu instead of making its own path.
Okay but you also just described Monster Hunter p much.
@@TOnySchAnneL9000
>Storytelling through expression
u forgot the bosses we love the bosses
I once read something along the lines of "genres are for the person in the video games store to know which aisle to put them in". In other words, they shouldn't be a guide for the designers. Instead they are a (very rough) guide for the buyer.
Except that designers want sales. For example, shooters are the top-selling games of the last decade. A developer would want their game in/on a shooter-specific aisle so that they would get more foot traffic. Throw anything anywhere and it would be harder for them to sell as much. Muddy the waters on what your game is, and it also makes it more difficult to promote based on genre.
Man, i love the ending. You totally get the soul of this game!
"Before Demon Souls, games were easy, they basically played themselves."
Excuse me sir, I believe I finished Ghouls N Ghosts.. and by finished I mean I broke the f*n cartridge when not getting past the second level after several weeks
Yes, some games on the NES were very hardcore! I did not break cartbridges but I threw my controller on the tv screen many times when I was a child! :P Cathodic TV screen were very solid. ;)
He is being sarcastic the games he shows were hardcore as hell
NES Silver Surfer would like a word.
@@kaloklin1554he got his point bruh
Soulsgame have nothing hard about them you die more cuz of bugs than anything else
A lot of games did difficulty better with more depth
1:30
Can we give this man some credit for the time it must have taken to layer the player above the text here. It's a great touch.
I don’t mind calling something a soulslike but I think people use it too often I don’t think that most games categorised as one are too close to dark souls
True the one that close is code vein and it's even has an anime style too!
Awesome way to put on you'r opinion, must say that I've fully agree with u!
Wow I didn’t realize there is a game called Rogue that spawned the genre Rogue-like. I prob should have known but I just learned this from the video so thanks.
I agree that genres are antithetical to creativity, but they are a convenient shorthand that's used by people to discover your game. I think you have to take the bad with the good here: ignore genre completely while creating and be thankful for it afterwards.
Exactly! Soulslike doesn't just mean difficult, it's also about dark atmosphere and atmosphere storytelling. Because this genre is new people associate it too much with dark souls, but like rouge likes and metroidvanias it'll at some point stop being about the games the genre stemmed from and just be a better descriptor of a specific type of game. Create a good game first, and then categorize it so people can find it.
@@breadwizard3341 but dark atmosphere and atmosphere storytelling is not new... a thousand games before demon souls would fit that description.
@@FrenkieWest32”it’s *ALSO* about dark atmosphere and atmosphere storytelling” , that’s all
@@deathhy7590 what part of that is supposed to make a new point?
@@FrenkieWest32 cherry picking wording to single out a single point when the comment clearly never implies that is what i’m pointing out, try again
Loved the tone, the analysis, the pace, the quality of both the voice record and editing, and the fact and the way I learned things! 🖤
This video's message is incorrect. That's not the problem with "Soulslike". The problem is people use it incorrectly. They drastically overuse it. That's the problem. You got it all wrong. The terms Roguelike and Roguelite and Soulslike are fine. It's people that are dumb and ruin it.
P.S. Gris sucks. It looks good but the gameplay is shit.
Good stuff man, looking forward to seeing more Nasu-likes in the future.
Nasu-likes are everywhere bro. Can't believe they copied my whole flow before I even created it frfr
This video is so well done, when we got to the outro I was surprised and wanted more, good job.
More coming soon 👍
I absolutely love this train of thought.
very interesting. I thought rogue-lite just meant it was a rogue-like with a substantial meta progression system & power scaling between runs. The more you know!
That’s what I thought too. I think the term roguelite has taken on a more nuanced meaning nowadays
It is, the video creator is incorrect. All Roguelites are Roguelikes.
i disagree with your opinion on rouge-lite, just because i think the category diference helps people when searching for particular traits.
that (at least i think) should be the main point of the concept of genres in the first place, a tool that helps people find games with the traits they like
it still sounds dumb ''Hello guys so this is a rougelike game but not so rougelike but still got some rougelike features that would make it a rouge like but diferent then a true rougelike so we call it a rouge like like aka rouge lite cuz the game is still a rouge like but not arouge like'' try to read that without choking
@@chadikhr7258 Roguelite - a roguelike which features permanent upgrades that benefit you in subsequent runs.
Is it inferable from the name alone? No, you have to dig for it. But it's a clear distinction nonetheless when you actually comprehend it.
I disagree with your opinion of the word "rouge" being validly usable over "rogue".
@@Mk_Otaid there seem to be an insane amount of people not knowing how to spell "rogue" for some reason
Reminds me of the honest trailer for rogue one
@@naiiin6949 Whenever I see somebody use the word rouge instead of rogue I instantly visualize a fedora-tipping snowflake kinda person.
If a game is labeled a metroidvania or a soulslike or a roguelike or a rougelite, I generally know what to expect, and just need to check reviews for details / quality. That's what labels are for, and I like it that way.
nooooo you can't just say something is like something else as if that were the way human brain made sense of new things and differentiated between categories noooooo
I think the problem is more with the overuse of the word, some people see a hard game and say it is a soulslike
This way of thinking just kills innovation.
@@mariobisignani4477 What way of thinking kills innovation how?
@@thewhyzer wanting to classify everything, especially works of art like music, books and videogames. I understand that some generic labels are needed in order to make sense of things, but I think that we went too far, especially in regards to music and videogames. By doing that, creators (especially not experienced ones) will tend to create stuff which has to follow some general artificial rules in order to be classified as "soulslike" or "vaporwave" and be accepted/digested by the general public.
Honestly I find this -like classification a very useful way to get a quick gasp of what a game is
It's a useful way to be mislead into believing you think you know something when you don't.
@@TheDocbachFacts
Excellent video!
Just discovered your channel. Thank you for the thought provoking and entertaining work. Love it!
The essence of Dark Souls is not found in one dissected aspect of its gameplay, but rather the entire thing. Every mechanic in Dark Souls games, or any Miyazaki game, is used to give the player an intended, deliberate experience. The Soul of these games lies in their say, what they want to say. It's a narrative of themes told through their gameplay. And what they say is meaningful and compelling. The Fire Fades. Mechanics in video games need to be seen as tools and foundations that will work to the benefit of the game narrative or world.
This is also why I still think DS1 is the best in the franchise, it's the most *coherent* by a longshot. ...If you ignore the unfinished bits. Still, DS3 feels very "random bullshit GO" in comparison somehow.
@@colbyboucher6391 absolutely not, Dark Souls III hammers down the present themes in Dark Souls in such a romantic and eclectic way. It's a swansong to the franchise, and it's so... Final. In no way is Dark Souls III random. But I do agree that in many ways, Dark Souls is the most whole member of the From Software's pantheon
@@c.b.5104 On a grand scale, yeah, it's a cool theme, but personally there was a lot of stuff that just seemed out of nowhere. But when I point it out people go "you're thinking too hard it's just a video game bro!" even though you almost never had to say that about the first. In DS1 we could point to specific enemy placements and be like "yeah this Channeler is looking to steal some maidens" or "This black knight seems to be spying on the sunlight altar, specifically". More than that, the basic "physics" of the world were relatively clear.
You eat humanity sprites to become more human and stave of hollowing, which is when an Undead goes insane. The Age of Mankind is when that dark soul can thrive without being made to fuel a fire that is essentially anaethema to it.
Meanhile in DS3, there's a "kingdom of Hollows" which just betrays what hollows are, you are... made of ash, or something? and there's *something* called the Dark Sigil which is *actually* responsible for hollowing, not, y'know, the darksign people get branded with? And then there's all the Age of Deep Sea nonsense which doesn't fit the flame / light / disparity metaphore at all. It all feels like there's not as much inherent logic, like it was just done for the sake of confusing people further. Idk. No one seems to agree but no one's ever really explained how it makes sense. Actually the best take I've seen is that the rules of the universe themselves are breaking down because of the oncoming big crunch. And the devs have been pretty open that a lot of lore had to get shuffled around with the ideas they yanked relatively late into development.
@@colbyboucher6391 Well the theme has always been the decay of the world and how no matter what we do, it will always come. And we will always want to stop it, to prevent it, even going to the point of sacrificing and corrupting everything there is just to delay the inevitable. The Deep is where the sins sink, we men are of Dark, and in the Dark lies a deep sea. Hell. Where the wretches of man, the sinners and murk will sink and pile and await the end of the world, where they will rise. It's an extension of the Abyss, where everything sinks, the more sin, the heavier the humanity. The Ringed City and the Dark Sigil, the Sigil is what lies trapped and cursed within the Dark Sign. As you see, it is a black hole entrapped by a ring of fire. The Ringed City is the Age of Dark, and Gwyn cursed it to be forever tied to the fire. The Dark Sigil is humanity unbound. The Ashen Ones are failed attempts at linking the fire, the world of Dark Souls III, and by extension Dark Souls, it's a world so old and so tired that it's ran out of ways to sustain itself. Resorting even to feed on its ashes just to keep the flame alive for a little while longer. It's a world of decay and mire, a world that is so drenched in decadence that it starts to collapse on itself in an attempt to escape the Linking of the Fire cycle. So it's not random, it is in fact very symbolic, very gentle and tragic. But in many ways, one day tiny flames will dance across the darkness
Game design didnt exist until demon souls, then
Ok thus spoke brooks for a background music instantly gets my respect
Great video but I was completely pulled out for a minute when I heard the Catherine music playing while "Dark Souls" was being used in a sentence. Great taste in games my guy.
This was a really good analysis of the genre. I absolutely adore Nasulike videos
Eh, I wouldn't call this a Nasulike video, it's too different from Nasu. I would say it's more of a Nasulike-like video.
@@Jamseth_Ingramious a nasulite*
I literally liked the video for your voice alone, but stayed for the content. Awesome video! I laughed so hard at some parts 😂
voicelike
Learning to parry to beat Gwyn, Lord of Cinder was a canon moment
Although I disagree with your final take, you gave me a lot of interesting insights. Thank you.
In the end, I still think that the problem largely lies within people, but not in the genre/games itself.
People should allow themselves to express their thoughts and ideas more freely, instead of confining them within the word "soulslike".
Or something like that
Nah, the problem are the people and the carbon-copies of dark souls
That word is used to alert others of a game that have a ridiculously punishing combat for them to avoid it.
Great video, i'm really happy this was randomly recommended to me because believe me brother, this exact same thing grinds my gears and makes me mad so it's nice to see someone finally making a great point about it.
I enjoyed watching, you have a nice calm voice. Sadly i dont have a friend who wont shut up about ds because thats me, just a few little additions from my side. I always thought the poise bar was meant to be the stamina bar in sekiro, also i think the simple naming is because the nature of gaming just evolved over the past years so its a kind of who cones first with an idea, technically every soulslike is an action rpg of some sort but tge core mechanic of the game is so drastically different that you need a different name to describe it further, of course just the first game like that used as naming is a very simple solution and to be fair also a prettt neat one because if you know the souls games which most people know honestly tou have a fast identification ofnthe core game. I know there is nothing to relate ut too from movies but they have subgenres too ehich sound pretty inspired, noir as a whole just means the word black so it describes old movies in black and white which which had a dark story. Anway this video is a year old so my comment won't be any part of a discussion anymore i assume. Still liked the video even tho i might disagree.
There are the "Doom Clones" too, like Quake, Call of Duty, Conter Strike and Portal. (Emphases on Portal)
Just recently bumped into your channel and all I can say is all your videos are so well made. Plus your voice is like velvet mate
I'm sure someone's already mentioned this but the distinction between roguelike and roguelite is not based on how different it is from rogue, but whether or not there are upgrades that persist between runs. Few games these days are true roguelikes (noita is an example where the lack of progression between runs is shown mainly in the larger role that knowledge of the games mechanics plays compared to other games.)
How should "upgrades between runs" be defined though. In the given example of BoI, you unlock more content, but nothing that's truly a persistent upgrade that makes the next run any easier. So you are effectively starting every run the same, like rogue, but it is still labled a rogue lite.
@@ODCrab You could argue that unlocking better items kinda makes the game easier tbh
Though I personally do not make a distinction between rogue like and lite
@@ODCrab Technically speaking any upgrades or things that affect the world counts, even if they don't make the game easier. In a roguelike the game is exactly the same every run, besides the original randomized elements(if they exist).
@@joaopedrocruz6432 like hell it does. By that logic a true rogue like that gets an expansion or even a patch is now a roguelite.
Imo, the difference of the two rouge game are
Roguelites grants you the ability to directly upgrade your Character before the start of a run ( whether more skills if invested, more weapon unlocks)
Roguelikes are those game where you can't upgrade your Character unless during the game
Character selectable games (games where you can choose your character) in relevance to the two games can be debatable on what makes what but most of the time, one can say that this doesn't affect the distinction
Roguelites: Hades ( Mirror upgrades)
Roguelikes: Slay the Spire ( No upgrades on characters unless a run has started)
Wonderful explanation of the soul of dark souls
Very solid video!
Thank you for bringing up Gris, never got in contact with the game before and it just looks amazing. Will play it soon!
For a game to be a souls like, it needs to have check points and the placement of enemies has to be precise (as in the next time you return all enemies are in the same places), so that you can learn their locations. It also has to have an element of exploration, which means the game can’t tell you what to do or where to go. And the player has to be vulnerable, in order to encourage learning.
That’s the whole souls formula.
That trial and error gameplay with respawning enemies is definitely a defining feature
Also, a few points worth of note:
-A game system based on stats
-A level system based upon a currency
-An interchangeable armory system
-A stamina combat system
-Maybe a death mechanic
Those are most of the tecnical aspects of the genre, for the rest it needs, probably, a really good lore section with the possibility to discover said lore by exploring details in the ambience, also interconnectivity of the carious levels and shortcuts are an important aspect to consider, and boss design shouldn't be overlooked either...
@@ghosthost2033 I would agree with all your rpg points if sekiro never existed. But sekiro has shown that the souls formula doesn’t work only for rpgs. I agree on the lore part although it’s more optional. I totally agree with interconnectivity and shortcuts, they go into the exploration side. And bosses in general are important for the learning curve of the game, I totally agree.
@@BiggDickman Fact is that Sekiro is kinda in a gray area, especially if we talk about the mechanics and the system.
On the worldbuilding aspects Sekiro is on spot, but the mechanics are very different for the traditional soulslike formula, making it almost subjective if we can deem Sekiro a soulslike or not.
@@ghosthost2033 I don’t think “souls like” means that it’s literally dark souls in every way. It just means that it has that same foundation. If the formula is soo strict, then you’re gonna end up with the same problem as a cod game or something, where you’re just copy and pasting games all over the place.
2:30 yeah, like, who’s gonna call breath of the wild soulslike? *stares at Master Mode* ignore that.
Hilarious vid!! Keep going
Didn’t expect to see Gris but it was a welcomed surprise. That game is a hidden gem, like walking through an art piece!
Soulslike parenting, is an instant classic
9:14 So what do you suppose we call it? A Herculean Journey? In reference to the phrase Herculean effort/task. Because I don't really say "soulsborn" I just say FromSoft title, because they always evolve the series using aspects of the previous titles. Except for maybe Sekiro, they just kinda forgot to add anything other a designated jump button to Elden ring and I think if they took an approach where you gained skills and abilities through leveling up instead of finding them like you're rooting around looking for scraps the abilites could be more impactful and useful.
Sekiro was a great game because you had the first protag FromSoft made (that wasn't a US President in a mech-suit) with an identity and he was powerful. Even with 0 upgrades you can go toe to toe with any and everyone and win convincingly if you lock in hard enough. None of that Soul Level 1 "man in loin cloth with club panick rolling for life" with only a pixel of HP and no heals left shit either.
Sekiro was a great character, why? He was fully fleshed out. Not a customizable OC you half-assedly half-baked for a meme. I wished they would do that with more souls games. Make the starting class feel like a class and not a set of starting equipment.
The skill trees gave you meaningful and strong abilities. Ashes of war tried to be like them but ultimately fail due to being treated the same way FromSoft does every piece of gear or loot. Ashes are Generic and can't be swapped on the fly as easily as the skills could.
The shinobi tools are an odd remix of Bloodborne's magic, you have the silver bullet limitor and don't start with the ability to trade health for ammo. Yet you get a dedicated set of slots for the tools to seperate them from normal consumables at the cost of a reduced number of slots.
This is better than any magic system the series has had because now there's only 1 resource you need to worry about since you aren't dumping levels into a stats like mind for slots, int, faith, or arcane for damage, nor are you splitting flasks between healing and mp recovery.
AND THE TOOLS AREN'T GENERIC! THEY ALL SERVE A UNIQUE PURPOSE AND ARE GOOD AT IT! DARKSOULS WILL GIVE YOU 5 PROGRESSIVELY BETTER ITERATIONS ON A FIREBALL SPELL MEANWHILE SEKIRO SAYS "HEY! YOU KNOW THAT USELESS SHITE ENEMIES HAVE BEEN DROPPING!? HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO USE THAT TO SET YOUR HAND AXE AND SPEAR ON FIRE!?"
You don't just dump currency for points to get a bigger number you gather materials to improve on your arsenal in a meaningful way. And it works! It works really damn well! Sure it starts as just "more damage" but then suddenly your tools have multiple purposes. Your axe spear shuriken and mist raven can now lit foes aflame, your spear can now do crowd control, your umbrella shield now block fire.
Do you know how much I would like to be able to pick a character and NOT have to run arround looking a shopping list of weapon upgrade material armor and spell I need to pick up and who to kill for it? Imagine picking 'pyromancer' and all your magic is earned through leveling up and improving upon the starting combustion and fireball spells.
Bahahahaha souls like parenting, I love it. You sir get a like and a sub 😊👍
i love your video , i totally agree with what you're trying to say
im also very excited to see your future videos
oh and your voice is so relaxing
I think a problem i see is that “like” refers to a gestalt of things that can be found in a landmark title(s). which I really think is necissary for catagorization in a topic with so many elements as video games. Like, the fact that you and game makers toolkit had different definitions of what soulslike consists of, combat, or combat loop indicates this. and others might say tone or world or 30 other elements.
Its descriptive of having part of a whole that makes up x game which is extremely USEFUL (thats the reason why we use it) to communicate complex and often slightly changing elements in multiple games.
I dont think this is so much a problem as it is the nature of language.
For me, who does like roguelikes, I find roguelite a USEFUL term, because many roguelites DONT have the elements I am looking for when I feel like playing a roguelike game. I feel there is a palpable demarcation in genre. The turn based table top roleplaying experience of a roguelike is distinct from the fast action of a Deadcells. So its of use to demarcate.
I actually encourage the use of two degrees of “commonality” between _-likes. because its useful for people (like me) to know how close an experience is to game x. for example “like” meaning that it has more structual similarities than differences, and “lite” for things that have obvious similarities, but do major things to shake up a formula.
essentially describing degrees of separation from an iconic formula.
The fact that we reference things naturally in relation to something else shows the utility of this form of communication. Its just a specific lense. I think instead of seeing this as a “bad” thing, just embracing that its a referential milestone term describing degrees of separation would be better.
“it is rather close to dark souls”
and
“it has some elements that evoke similar experiences to dark souls”
and leave it at that withought positive or negative implications.
Its DESCRIPTIVE rather than PRESCRIPTIVE.
I think he finds the problem of people calling things that are not close to descriptive of the genre.
Many games have been called soulslike that have no uses to be called soulslike. Even the community of souls games made from the devs are disagreeing to call sekiro a soulslike game. Using what you said, Skerio would be described as a soulslite, it doesn't have the similarities of soulslike games but it is similar in the form of it.
Even -like and -lite have their own sub-genre that makes the game unique to the rest or similar to others.
@@yamsSMP He is wrong on the premise as well.
Since there are allot of platforming games but not all are the same.
If you keep adding tags to a game, it will the size of moby dick.
If he thinks soulslike is a bad term to use, he should look over at the RPG term. It lost it's meaning a long time ago.
Comment too wordy wont read great point though i think
@@epepepe7178 yah, i have a problem with that when i think too hard. I need to learn to write more concisely and to the point.