fire video. subscribed, liked, commented, clicked the bell, shared it to my family, played it at my grandma's funeral (she was resurrected), this video cured my stage four terminal cancer, my depression, and fixed my unrelenting habit to call shitting while constipated a souls-like experience. cant wait to see more
The real problem is that most developers miss the real point and don't even put a single barefoot maiden in their games, like c'mon guys! it's called soles like for a reason!
Maybe 2 people you knew called them doom clones but that was definitely not a popular thing. People didn't even use the word clone like that back in the day, gaming was way too new. Not to mention most popular shooters for years were ID Software games(Quake, Doom, Wolfenstein) so what you are saying makes even less sense. Counter-Strike popularized the FPS genre and by that time most players didn't even know Doom exists. The clone topic got a main start with open-world games after GTA clones started popping up like Saints Row 1.
@@minartson "Maybe 2 people you knew called them doom clones but that was definitely not a popular thing." Then what did they call them? "People didn't even use the word clone like that back in the day, gaming was way too new." Which decade are you referring to? "Counter-Strike popularized the FPS genre and by that time most players didn't even know Doom exists." Sounds like someone doesn't understand the history of FPS-type games. Windows 95 was literally marketed as being able to play Doom.
It's not a troll,I don't have freinds/rights,getting rights means force,force means hurting,hurting is a big risk=it's not because of getting attacked back by the 1 I'm attacking,inperiam and rebellions 40k.
In Japan they are called "shinige" (dying games or something like that), games where dying and coming back, learning from your mistakes is part of the mechanic and usually it's implemented in the story as well.
Everyone knows that Kirby's Dream Course was the first Souls-like game. Why do you think Miyazaki made Mimic Tear the strongest thing in the game? Because Kirby does the same thing and he's the strongest character in fiction. I rest my case, OJ didn't do it.
Ah jeez, oh fuck I didn’t even think about that. This whole time I was thinking summon slender man at 3:00am challenge was the first soulslike experience
@@cthulhu4411right and even that is false Fromsoftware has not done anything unique its just that casuals dont play anything more than fifa madden cod so this is what happen
Remember when all FPS games were called "Doom Clones"? Edit: The point I tried to make here is that as the FPS genre evolved, Doom's copy-cats took fewer and fewer elements from the Doom gameplay loop. As a result, the only similarities Doom shared with these other games (post-1996 when "Quake" was released) was that they were in first person and had shooting-based combat, thus narrowing down the definition to an extremely flexible category. As for how this relates to Souls-Likes, FromSoftware made more and more changes to the Dark Souls formula in subsequent games, adding and subtracting various features, like adding rallying in Bloodborne and removing the stamina bar in Sekiro. As a result, we ended up with games that played very differently as a whole while still having the same core mechanics.
@@Eking-su3tr I would argue that "boomer shooters" are a different thing; I think of a boomer shooter as a game made in 2020* or later trying to emulate a FPS from the early 90s, but often with even more action added to the gameplay as if to set itself apart as self-aware. (And also to not be confused with an old @$$ 'doom clone'. *I did reference urban dictionary) Thanks for reading 😄
The way you must time your paddle to hit the ball at the right time, timing your dodge roll is basically the same exact thing. I can’t believe Miyazaki could be so unoriginal
This alone, after 2 years ago since I quit cuphead because of the froggies boss, once I literally had been seeing these FUCKING obstacle clips, I had to come back to prove I ain't 50% just like them, and now cuphead is at my top 5 games of all time
It's important to know that the same journalist that infamously couldn't do that tutorial also ended up finishing the game later on and gave it strong praise and recommendation.
I literally cannot belive that he was being serious, that review had to have been a joke or he was having a stroke or something there isn't a fucking timeline in the multiverse where a child can't jump that one obstacle, let alone a grown ass man who gets PAID to do it
I always thought a "soulslike" game was when enemies respawn each time you "rest" or level up, and losing your level up points each time you died. Dark Souls was the first game to introduce me to those mechanics.
I think part of the problem is when a game comes out and gets labled as something because it shares things; it is automatically compared to the game prior. This can be a bad thing becauae some games would be seen as better if they werent compared to other games just because it is similar in some ways
As stupid as it sounds, I would have thought part of the things that make something “soulslike” would be the fact of dying and losing your souls/runes or whatever it is
I mean you're correct. Souls like games punish you for dying. Most people assume that punishment is going back to a save spot, then progressing through areas you've been before until you reach the point you were at. But souls/runes also belong in that category. You lose some of them when you die, and you have to fight more enemies till you get the amount you had before
I don't think it should be the case, survival games tend to do that where you lose all your gear and then have to go back for it. Even MMOs like Perfect World International, you'd lose your experience points when you die (but dying wasn't as easy). The problem is that souls games do something so particularly engrained with the game itself, it's hard to pick it apart to see what the real essence of a souls-like game is. I think for me what makes souls-like games is having all enemies you defeated respawn after you sit at the checkpoint, otherwise you can kill everyone and as long as you don't use checkpoints, nobody would respawn. That's the core mechanic, the game revolves around that, because now you can choose to rest and redo the whole challenging (or easy) enemies all over again, or keep exploring without reviving anything but risk getting ambushed while low on resources. Have you played Stranger of Paradise? It checks a lot of souls-like elements, except it's linear and level-based, and you don't lose anything other than the magic you've accumulated from other fights, so your definition of dying and losing souls isn't exactly valid in that way anymore. Either that, or my definition is wrong and stranger of paradise is not a souls-like.
i think that cycle is part of it, but there's also certain gameplay quirks that make a game feel like a souls game i-frame dodges being central to combat, favoring calculated attacks over combos/flashy moves, etc all kind of set dark souls apart from hack-n-slash and character action in interesting ways but then that leads me to ask: why isn't monster hunter a "soulslike"? what genre is it, and why aren't they lumped together somehow? probably the core gameplay loop like you said
hey Nasu! great video bro. just love the tone of your voice makes it so easy to listen, and i really admire this presepective and agree with it completely. even as a hardcore fromsoftware fan i agree that putting lables on any artform limits the potential of its creators and also tunnels the expectations of what people think a game Shoul be played like. beautiful talk. thank you!
@@billjones642Elsa doesn't really describe what the game is about souls like genre games have aesthetic writing and game design conversations to them that make it unique
“When developers stick firmly to a blueprint, they’re designing backwards, creating a game that conforms to establish game mechanics rather than designing elements that’ll best compliment their game.” This is a brilliant quote, and has been at the forefront of my mind as I try do create my own small, passion projects.
@@portofthoughts4477 Not really. Sekiro and Elden ring have such massive differences it’s hard to say they follow the same blueprint as the dark souls games.
@@chaytonhurlow840 it would ruin *your* experience. if you prefer games that stick to the conventional "soulslike" blueprints, that's good for you. many people want there to be more creativity and originality, not the same game over and over in a different font. there is an expectation that game devs have to conform to these mechanics no matter their core ideas, or that they have to mould the design into something that fits a genre name. Games don't have to be the next dark souls, rogue or metroid- they just have to be the next game, and mechanics do not make up everything a game has to offer. there is so much more to every title than just the soulsborne design
Feeling like I have the exaggerated swagger of a medieval fantasy protagonist is exactly why I love Dark souls, among many reasons. You hit the nail on the head my guy
the problem with "soulslike" is it gets slapped on any game that has any similar mechanics no matter how unique the game is. the only soulslike i've played that feels anything like a souls game is code vein, and that's because it is literally just anime dark souls
The funny thing is DS1 crowned the "soulslike" genre *specifically because* it was so unique it was like nothing that came before. Slapping the genre onto any difficult game ironically goes against the game's very nature as a genre-defining game.
Well you do have games like mortal shell, lords of the fallen, and remnant:from the ashes (i think thats what its called) which do obviously deserve that label, its a very real sub genre now
I don't think that people are calling "Rouguelikes" like that because they are derivatives of Rogue, but more because Rogue was the first game with random level generation and that forces you to restart from the beginning if you die, so it's more like people defined a genre with those specific characteristics and named it "Roguelike" in honor of the first game that brought those on the table If a game does not have those two characteristics it is not a "Roguelike", just like a film that doesn't evoke fear isn't an "horror", that's why the term "Roguelite" was invented, to classify games that don't force you to restart completely anew every time you die, instead having a semblance of slow overall progress, wich admittedly made them more popular than regular "roguelikes" Same with "Metroidvania", people usually use it to refer to any 2D open world game with zones blocked behind certain abilities, but it usually isn't for comparing it directly with the source material, but instead to say that: "it's a 2D game that instead of many levels it has a big map with certain zones blocked behind certain abilities", so unless it ticks all of those boxes it isn't considered a "Metroidvania" These terms serve to help define what the game is about, because to a game there's more than just "horror" and "thrill" there is also gameplay elements, people use these terms to quickly describe what's the feels like, just as they would use "platformer" or "RPG" The problem with "Soulslike" is that dark souls has too many characteristics, wich makes it unclear wich of them are necessary to define a "soulslike" game, so people just began to give that adjective to any game that had any of those characteristics in it, and that instead of using it to help define a genre, but mostly to "accuse" other games, as if using any of those elements was bad in any way
I think what everyone that enjoy From Soft games can agree with is that they are not hard per say. They are simply a fair challenge. And that the essence of the experience they give you is the experience of leveling up yourself, not your character.
@@16m49x3 "Fair challenge" does not always hold true in Fromsoft games but yeah the difficulty isn't the selling point and Miyazaki has even said that it's not purposefully hard, he just needs difficulty present to tell the kind of story he wants to tell.
Yes and no. Roguelikes are also tile and turn based. Just because your game incorporates random level design and perma death features with meta progression doesn't make it a roguelike. Caves of Qud, Cogmind, Tales of Maj Eyal, etc. are all traditional roguelikes that follow that original game design and choice. There is an important distinction between roguelikes and roguelites.
See, this is also my problem with “lifelike” items. The cops always come around and say things like, “man, that manakin is so lifelike,” and “what lifelike hands your doll has.” It’s really frustrating both because they’re always bothering me, and my art of taxidermy never gets the appreciation it truly deserves.
It's just a matter of convention. When someone asks you "what kind of game is x?" You can say that it is sort of soulslike in combat but with emphasized platforming for example. Linguistic tools like these are always handy to express fairly complex concepts without going into too much detail, and that's what it is all about.
THISSSSSS. I have a friend that just HATES it when game reviewers and journalists compare video games with each other while talking about them. Like ''this game is like breath of the wild, but with some rouguelike elements yadayadayada'' ''this game is very soulslike and also has metroidvania style progression'' ''this game is like X game and Y game had a baby!'' He hates it, and he's all like ''does every game with grass have to be a breath of the wild??'' ''Did fromsoft invent difficulty???'' ''is Jazz in a videogame automatically a Persona 5 inspired game???'' The thing he doesn't get, is that you can't explain all the nuances and intricacies of every game, let alone a new and never seen one. We as human beings use language as a way to communicate to others why a game out there might be similar to something else and in doing so, maybe informing them if a game is for them or not. There's a popular game out there, so you compare new stuff to it when they're similar in order to convey as much info in a short amount of time. People don't really have all day these days. Thing is, he looses sleep over people mislabling games and comparing games when they're not THAT similar. Like people calling hollow knight a soulslike. I mean, I get it, there's people out there calling it the wrong way, but who cares? have fun.
@@joshy-noha I think the problem is when someone knows the game and someone who doesn't know the game. When you compare to many games that don't make sense in compering them you get bit warped perception for the game. If one described hallow knight as souls like but 2D, it sounds weird to someone who knows the game, if would just been better to say that it is a metrovenia. Metrovenia games have different combat from each other, like Death's Gambit to La-Mulana.
That’s understandable within a conventional conversation between people but when it comes repeatedly from game reviewers or people that call them self that it’s extremely lazy
@@joshy-noha I do think it can turn into a lazy way of describing though. Dead Cells is referred to as a 2d dark souls when in reality it's a lot more like a hack'n'slash fused with Ninja Gaiden. ANY open world 3d game is referred to as BOTW clone. It's not the comparisons, it's that the community then warps it and starts calling games clones for little reason and gatekeeping over the genre(e.g only good difficulty game is dark souls, because the others are clones)
Preciate it man. And yeah level headed argument definitely helps when tryna argue something. Loose labels and generalizations are somewhat of a pet peeve
I remember that it actually pissed me off when I was enjoying Hollow Knight because of the atmosphere and exploration and a friend of mine came out saying that "Cuphead is just better because both are games about evading difficult attacks but Cuphead has better looking graphics"
I once read something along the lines of "genres are for the person in the video games store to know which aisle to put them in". In other words, they shouldn't be a guide for the designers. Instead they are a (very rough) guide for the buyer.
Except that designers want sales. For example, shooters are the top-selling games of the last decade. A developer would want their game in/on a shooter-specific aisle so that they would get more foot traffic. Throw anything anywhere and it would be harder for them to sell as much. Muddy the waters on what your game is, and it also makes it more difficult to promote based on genre.
It also has managed to trap fun action gameplay in dark settings. Heck, I'd go so far as to say the better the 3D combat system, the more it's expected to be in the goriest most gritty style imaginable.
see the problem is when i read this i tried to imagine a bright game with this combat. I imagined a princess fighting bright fantasy creatures using candy weapons. and then imagined her using a sharpened giant candy cane as a pike and fucking shit up. Its just cooler
I loved it at "We all know difficulty didn't exist until Miyazaki invented it in 2009" It really feels like there is just this shared mass psychosis over this game. It is literally just a moderately difficult medieval fantasy game that doesn't have a baby mode. I have no fucking idea how it became synonymous with difficulty.
@@ИапГоревич Commercial success in Western countries, I'd reckon. While Hitman, Touhou etc. were surely harder, Dark Souls sold 33 Million copies, Hitman C47 just half a million.
Because of the learning curve\the game not explaining much. Makes it seem harder when you first try it. Also dying alot being an intended part of the experience. For alot of people who played this was their first experience with those kind of mechanics
@@elijiahcater7043 i've platinumed all of them. Probably run through DS1 8 or 9 times at this point . They're not easy but a lot of games are harder. Also if you select a game at random with difficulty settings and pick a higher one, it will be harder. People just get mad as fuck that they have to think a little bit about their actions.
The "aspects" of a souls game -limited healing -stamina bar -emphasis on animations -storytelling through experiences What should define a souls game -groundhogs day. Fight die learn After I beat sekiro, I looked into ghost of tsushima. I looked into reviews and people called it a soulslike. And it was a very similar game. It's japanese... that's all there is that's similar between these 2 games. Ghost of tsushima would be closer to batman arkham and assassins creed. People try to piggie back on the bacl of the success of other devs. Just look at what the dceu tried to do, copy the mcu instead of making its own path.
I don’t mind calling something a soulslike but I think people use it too often I don’t think that most games categorised as one are too close to dark souls
I agree that genres are antithetical to creativity, but they are a convenient shorthand that's used by people to discover your game. I think you have to take the bad with the good here: ignore genre completely while creating and be thankful for it afterwards.
Exactly! Soulslike doesn't just mean difficult, it's also about dark atmosphere and atmosphere storytelling. Because this genre is new people associate it too much with dark souls, but like rouge likes and metroidvanias it'll at some point stop being about the games the genre stemmed from and just be a better descriptor of a specific type of game. Create a good game first, and then categorize it so people can find it.
That Gris music caught me off guard and almost activated the tears fountain, how dare you. Very thought-provoking and well-structured video, was a pleasure watching.
If a game is labeled a metroidvania or a soulslike or a roguelike or a rougelite, I generally know what to expect, and just need to check reviews for details / quality. That's what labels are for, and I like it that way.
nooooo you can't just say something is like something else as if that were the way human brain made sense of new things and differentiated between categories noooooo
@@thewhyzer wanting to classify everything, especially works of art like music, books and videogames. I understand that some generic labels are needed in order to make sense of things, but I think that we went too far, especially in regards to music and videogames. By doing that, creators (especially not experienced ones) will tend to create stuff which has to follow some general artificial rules in order to be classified as "soulslike" or "vaporwave" and be accepted/digested by the general public.
Рік тому+49
Loved the tone, the analysis, the pace, the quality of both the voice record and editing, and the fact and the way I learned things! 🖤
I'm sure someone's already mentioned this but the distinction between roguelike and roguelite is not based on how different it is from rogue, but whether or not there are upgrades that persist between runs. Few games these days are true roguelikes (noita is an example where the lack of progression between runs is shown mainly in the larger role that knowledge of the games mechanics plays compared to other games.)
How should "upgrades between runs" be defined though. In the given example of BoI, you unlock more content, but nothing that's truly a persistent upgrade that makes the next run any easier. So you are effectively starting every run the same, like rogue, but it is still labled a rogue lite.
@@ODCrab You could argue that unlocking better items kinda makes the game easier tbh Though I personally do not make a distinction between rogue like and lite
@@ODCrab Technically speaking any upgrades or things that affect the world counts, even if they don't make the game easier. In a roguelike the game is exactly the same every run, besides the original randomized elements(if they exist).
Imo, the difference of the two rouge game are Roguelites grants you the ability to directly upgrade your Character before the start of a run ( whether more skills if invested, more weapon unlocks) Roguelikes are those game where you can't upgrade your Character unless during the game Character selectable games (games where you can choose your character) in relevance to the two games can be debatable on what makes what but most of the time, one can say that this doesn't affect the distinction Roguelites: Hades ( Mirror upgrades) Roguelikes: Slay the Spire ( No upgrades on characters unless a run has started)
Great video, i'm really happy this was randomly recommended to me because believe me brother, this exact same thing grinds my gears and makes me mad so it's nice to see someone finally making a great point about it.
In the end, I still think that the problem largely lies within people, but not in the genre/games itself. People should allow themselves to express their thoughts and ideas more freely, instead of confining them within the word "soulslike". Or something like that
I appreciate you mentioning that every single game is derisive, because that is so true of every art form. As an artist I get in debates all the time on whether or not you should use samples in your production, but I've always argued exactly what you said - EVERY piece of art was inspired by something, almost always another piece of art
I think a problem i see is that “like” refers to a gestalt of things that can be found in a landmark title(s). which I really think is necissary for catagorization in a topic with so many elements as video games. Like, the fact that you and game makers toolkit had different definitions of what soulslike consists of, combat, or combat loop indicates this. and others might say tone or world or 30 other elements. Its descriptive of having part of a whole that makes up x game which is extremely USEFUL (thats the reason why we use it) to communicate complex and often slightly changing elements in multiple games. I dont think this is so much a problem as it is the nature of language. For me, who does like roguelikes, I find roguelite a USEFUL term, because many roguelites DONT have the elements I am looking for when I feel like playing a roguelike game. I feel there is a palpable demarcation in genre. The turn based table top roleplaying experience of a roguelike is distinct from the fast action of a Deadcells. So its of use to demarcate. I actually encourage the use of two degrees of “commonality” between _-likes. because its useful for people (like me) to know how close an experience is to game x. for example “like” meaning that it has more structual similarities than differences, and “lite” for things that have obvious similarities, but do major things to shake up a formula. essentially describing degrees of separation from an iconic formula. The fact that we reference things naturally in relation to something else shows the utility of this form of communication. Its just a specific lense. I think instead of seeing this as a “bad” thing, just embracing that its a referential milestone term describing degrees of separation would be better. “it is rather close to dark souls” and “it has some elements that evoke similar experiences to dark souls” and leave it at that withought positive or negative implications. Its DESCRIPTIVE rather than PRESCRIPTIVE.
I think he finds the problem of people calling things that are not close to descriptive of the genre. Many games have been called soulslike that have no uses to be called soulslike. Even the community of souls games made from the devs are disagreeing to call sekiro a soulslike game. Using what you said, Skerio would be described as a soulslite, it doesn't have the similarities of soulslike games but it is similar in the form of it. Even -like and -lite have their own sub-genre that makes the game unique to the rest or similar to others.
@@yamsSMP He is wrong on the premise as well. Since there are allot of platforming games but not all are the same. If you keep adding tags to a game, it will the size of moby dick. If he thinks soulslike is a bad term to use, he should look over at the RPG term. It lost it's meaning a long time ago.
im from another country and tbh u made me laugh the shit out of me. this video was amazing keep doing content in that way with ur awesome and hilarious editing i loved it! +1 sub
I agree with everything you said, but i can see why games cling to hard to tags and genres and sub-genres compared to movies. As games live from their interactivity, it is harder to judge what they are all about from just watching images or a video about it (And there might be hunderts of hours of game experience in it, how do you describe all that to somebody else?), so tags and genres help to identify quickly what this game is all about. We should not do it and let games stand for themselves, but languages always tries to be simplistic and efficient, so when i recommend games to my friends i will probably say something like: "Yeah try that game it is like darkest dungeon, but has a bit more metroidvania in it."
We do the same with music and film. By talking about themes, pacing/rhythm, directors/producers and so on. His point is about inspiration and making a new subgenre specifically because it uses a dodgeroll. Edit: dunno why I typed this. I can see you say the exact same thing as I did, but better. I'm just high, sorry
@@TheOUTSIDER1995 nobody complains that lords of the fallen would be called a souls-like. But nioh? Eh. Hollow Knight? Not even close. Etc. You don't call battlefield a ''doom-like'' eventhough it is probably more reasonable to do that.
It makes me think of music genres. I listen to EDM mainly, and the amount of subgenres that can be classified by something as simple as an extra kick in the drum pattern or what types of bass sounds they use is absurd. Like I get it, it makes sense to categorize things so you can find more of what you like, but it sparks some really dumb genre arguments that ultimately lead nowhere lmao. I hear the same is true with metal subgenres.
I have just started trying to create a video game, and have been describing it to my friends when I tell them, I want to take this aspect of Metroidvania. Still, also I want to take this from a souls-like game, can't seem to understand that I don't want to be constricted to the borders of what people have already done, and they tell me, "Well you can't do that, then it's no longer a Metroidvania!" I am trying to be creative and unique, not same-old same-old, this video inspired me greatly, more people should watch this, it certainly inspired me to not be repetitive, and to create something new.
I was wondering if anyone else in online communities are talking about this. I am so glad I found this video that puts all of my similar thoughts into a coherent presentation and adds even more to it. Dark Souls isn't the first difficult boss-rush game; it's the first popular one to do that since NES and SNES titles. I especially loved your last line, "Games have already evolved passed just being 'Souls-likes," and it's time the language we use to refer to them does the same." Perfect message I hope more game developers hear and learn.
Hallow knight in my opinion does what you said perfectly. The only similarities that it has with souls are it being the same genre, and having a similar way of story telling. It’s easily one of if not my favorite games of all time. And I am sure when silk song comes out, it’s going to be even better
I think the way the hitbox functions in souls games is hugely important to how the comparison should be made and is often missed on many ,, The hit box in souls games is pretty much right down the to character design and allows for some crazy shit that can't happen in other games like say devilmay cry where the hitboxes are insanely big so you can keep combos going to get that sweet SSS rank but in souls games the hit boxes are designed to be punishing and "realistic" in a way and I'm using that term really lightly Also just the way the combat is in general is hugely important to dark souls games not just the difficulty, the combat just feels so much more rewarding then other rpgs or action games And sekiro was probably the most rewarding combat ever in any game, no other studio has been able to do sword fighting as well as fromsoft did with sekiro and they turned their own combat system upside down to it and it was a massive success but still souls like nonetheless idk Sekiro was my first souls game cause I didn't like dark souls at first but after playing sekiro I decided to give them an honest try and used a guide to help decide on a class/build to go for and really enjoyed it actually , Sekiro is by far still the best tho, better combat then elden ring but elden ring has more shit to do and is the better overall game by far But sekiro combat is just 😘🤌
i disagree with your opinion on rouge-lite, just because i think the category diference helps people when searching for particular traits. that (at least i think) should be the main point of the concept of genres in the first place, a tool that helps people find games with the traits they like
it still sounds dumb ''Hello guys so this is a rougelike game but not so rougelike but still got some rougelike features that would make it a rouge like but diferent then a true rougelike so we call it a rouge like like aka rouge lite cuz the game is still a rouge like but not arouge like'' try to read that without choking
@@chadikhr7258 Roguelite - a roguelike which features permanent upgrades that benefit you in subsequent runs. Is it inferable from the name alone? No, you have to dig for it. But it's a clear distinction nonetheless when you actually comprehend it.
i'm going to shout this at every game dev i see until one of you gets to work: first person shooter trading card game where the cards in your deck determine what enemies and weapons appear in the level s
That's really clever video. I also see this problem and I see this in other medias than games. I would say that there is so much stuff now, while also being so different, that not everything really suits for an existing genre, while we also need some names to know beforehand what we deal with. Just because there is so much things it is so important to have some genres/types/names, because it is impossible to go through everything, so we filter stuff based on the search preferences. Music shows this well too. If something is similar to a genre, but not quite it, they are just called indie/alternative-[put normal genre name here]. I feel like this is a kind of problem, because with the more game derives from the "original" that the genre name was based off, the more it looks like it should not be in that genre, but then without it it could lack one and creating totally new genres all the time, figuring out what elements make it that certain genre etc. would just bring more mess. I thing that more generalised ideas of genres are better and instead of looking at a thing(be it a game, book, music, film, whatever with different types) as just that one genre, it would be better to look at elements of it and describe it by many different, but generalised types, that could give us some of the information what to expect from a title. It is already in use, like for steam you have those tags and many different websites with game catalogs also use it for years where you just have those longer lists with "action, platformer, 3d, something, something, something". Sometimes games can really make their way in a community and it feels normal that there might be influences and things called from those, but like it was said before, everything derives from something, so having more generalised terms that can describe certain mechanics/styles is the way to go in my opinion, instead of creating "just like this other game" type of description.
As someone new to the Souls games, I was hesitant to watch this. For some reason I thought this was just going to be someone shitting all over a franchise I've fallen in love with. I'm glad that isn't the case. You make a lot of compelling points and I agree with your take on art's inspiration. Great video. Subbed.
GRIS was the most magical game I have ever seen! Played it during the first month of lockdown. I am so lucky it is now part of my life, as an experience, as a memory! 💔💔💔
Thank you. Honestly, it bothers me when I know people who just assume if a game is hard it MUST be a “souls-like” game, or if a game has no difficulty slider that it MUST be a “souls-like”. Most the people I know that use the term “souls-like” also have never touched a Souls game, or likely even played any hack-and-slash or adventure game from the last 3 decades… Personally, I’m a huge 2D Metroid fan, and I actually hate the term “Metroidvania”, because Castlevania only stayed relevant by blantantly copying the 2D Metroid formula, because Castlevania was stagnating and desperate after decreasing popularity. Castlevania games are just 2D platformers, and are at their core the most basic a game can honestly be, in a good way; Metroid was more or less a 2D dungeon crawler, that relied more on atmosphere and environmental storytelling because of a deliberate choice to have little-to-no dialogue - go figure, the moment they gave Samus a voice, it flopped hard, compared to her occasional monologues during Super and Fusion… It’s true the industry had trends, with “Doom clones” in the 90’s, but each game was distinctive, even during the “Doom Clone Craze”: Blood was dark, brooding, and attempting satire on horror cliches, but had its own blend of unique weapons and enemies; Strife was essentially a prototype of Deus Ex and System Shock, with sprawling maps filled with NPCs and quests; Witchavrn (while utterly trash) tried to create a more slowed down and ambient dungeon crawler, compared to things like Heretic. Each game is its own thing - when I first saw Hollow Knight, my first reaction was just 2D platformer, I can’t imagine why people would call it a souls-like… Titan Souls, while an awful game in my mind (and blatantly capitalized off the early Souls hype), has at least got some sense of identity, and a unique (but trash and arbitrarily difficult) aspect of its gameplay. I still wouldn’t even classify the Souls series as “difficult”, they just make you prioritize reading animations and reacting. The way any of the 4 actual Souls games become difficult is when you get reckless and ignore tells, which, man, like, games have been doing since their inception. Also, I just want to add, anyone who says “Soulsborne” is the most cringe thing ever. I rarely use “the other c-word”, but, God, it just sounds awful and pretentious - just say “Souls”, because Bloodborne is just Dark Souls 2 with the rally mechanic, stripped down stats, and no blocking… cope.
I really always felt like there was a glaring problem with the "soulsborne" 'genre', and after playing through both Dark Souls and Bloodborne, they are such different games that lumping them under some umbrella genre doesn't do them justice whatsoever. Also, I just recently started Sekiro and "soulsbornkiro" is truly an affront to God.
I think Sekiro is my fave because it’s so drastically different from the Souls series as a whole and I kind of wish we got more of that Entirely new system and setting which is really fun
I mean?? It's more that FromSoft is kinda their own genre? Some devs have a really particular flavor, FromSoft is one of them, and even by that standard Dark Souls and BB utilize *extremely* similar gameplay systems. They're kinda like the difference between a tradiitonal 2D fighter and an anime fighter. I'd like to know why you feel they're so different.
@@colbyboucher6391 That's a good point, maybe saying that they're such different "games" wasn't the right word, a better word would be "experiences" for my point. FromSoft does have their own very specific design philosophy, but the problem I see is when people lump each of their titles into one and call it a genre, that just feels weird to me, and almost like it encourages other devs to just copy what they did, which is basically already what most other "souls-like" games are, which just bogs down From's actual quality experiences. They didn't invent the mechanics they use, they're just the only ones to utilize them in such a successful fashion, and I think Sekiro is proof that it's just them that's unique, not the genre.
@@dgouin99 Bloodborne and Dark Souls are very similar, Bloodborne reduces your build crafting in favour of a slightly more fast-paced game. They are fundamentally very similar games, and I think it's safe to say they belong in a genre together. Genre's exist to give people an idea of a similar experience. The problem is that soulslike is overused and also not well defined. A 'soulslike' could mean similar in combat, in presentation, in the entire experience? It's not well defined. Though soulsborne has been a very popular term, many people obviously are inclined to put them under the same umbrella term. Depending on what you define as success, there are other games that are well praised for their particular application of the 'soulslike' formula. Salt and Sanctuary, Jedi: Fallen Order, and maybe Dead Cells (I played that one enough to feel that's more roguelite then Souls, but alright Steam).
Defining characteristic of Fromsoft games for me have always been the need of persistence and determination. If you get frustrated too easily or give up, these aren’t the games for you. One has to have persistence and determination to overcome the challenge. If anything, I would say dark souls is a most like a rhythm game. It’s all about patterns, staying in time with your opponent, and controlling your inputs precisely. No matter what we call them. I love them
Yo might be annoying or something… but yesterday was my birthday and I posted a video today about me getting my pewdiepie chair… if u guys can just watch the video and see if u guys like the video that would be awesome, if not have a good day homies:) 👊🙏🙏
I take your point here but the fact is that such terms are deployed because they are useful. If I describe to a friend that a game is a "Metroidvania" he will immediately understand that its an interconnected map with powerups that unlock new areas, is likely 2D, with an emphasis on exploration and platforming. A tremendous amount or information is quickly conveyed.
It makes total sense for these terms to exist, but the issue comes with defining an entire genre by adding a “like” to a game that barely shares its features. Like, I don’t see you calling a burger a “sandwich-like”
Fantastic video, well said. I've been saying much the same thing with mostly the same examples (ie. Rogue, Metroidvanias etc) for years but you beat me to making a video so eloquently getting the point across. Well done. I've been using the term Precision Action for a while as I felt the precise combat was a defining point. Its not about combos but timing, dodging, and and precise movement. After watching your video I'm thinking Endurance is also a key part of the gameplay loop so perhaps the term "Precision Endurance Games" or PEGs is a good one. A three-letter genre is tradition in gaming; RPG, FPS, RTS, and MMO are all accepted, so why not PEG. Then we could say things like "Elden Ring is an Open World PEG", "Bloodborne is a fast paced Horror PEG", "Nioh is a level-based PEG set in Feudal Japan", and "Hollow Knight is a 2D Exploration Platformer with PEG elements". I think it fits well.
The final conclusion of the video was disappointing, in all the games when we die, we change our strategy and repeat the stage until we win. I think games like dead cells change this process because every time you die, the game map changes. and can not maintain anything but the movements of enemies
Great video ! I'm making games on my free time and always end up in the safety of a well defined genre. After watching your video, I want to be more experimental and try to do some things my way
When dark souls came out, I would compare it to mega man. You have a level, then a boss. You have to memorize the level and figure out the most effective way to get to the boss, then memorize the boss and how to avoid damage and when to attack
@@NasuPrime that’s about where the similarities end. It’s not the best comparison but when it was new and I didn’t know what else to compare it to, it was a good enough, quick and dirty comparison
These games are absolutely necessary and it's no surprise that they do well. Most games are made to cater to the lowest common denominator, and even the 5th game in a franchise is made for first time players. (See: God of War Ragnarok) From Software makes games for gamers and doesn't care if you haven't played the earlier titles. More companies need to emulate this.
I love that you made a video about this I was just talking to my friends about this exact thing and how I hated that these games were called souls like when they use to be called action rpgs.
Action RPG is a much broader category though. That would apply to any game with RPG elements and action-based combat. But Souls-like is a subgenre that typically involves challenging combat and gradually learning enemy attack patterns, as well as other elements such as checkpoints or refillable healing items.
Thank you for this video. I’ve always resented the categorization of creative works (though it’s practically necessary), so I really enjoy your perspective and opinions. Keep it up man, here to support!❤
I mean categories are brilliant if some one came up and asked me to recommendation game and they loved the darksouls ima suggest a souls like game not fortnight
very interesting. I thought rogue-lite just meant it was a rogue-like with a substantial meta progression system & power scaling between runs. The more you know!
I really think “soulslike” is actually centered around a specific mechanic. Death and bonfires. When you die you lose everything that you didnt lock in at a checkpoint and checkpoints respawn stuff. Think fallen order, hollow knight, blasphemous, nioh, thymesia, and other soulslikes that adhere to that.
@@karlbharnarl butbutbutbutbuuubttbubtutbut if they change the name it'll be hard to find cool sous-like games on steam DDD: (I would never have played hollow knight before if it wasn't for that!). So just call it what you want, making a good game is a whole other topic and if people wanna name it "souls-like" fuck it, no harm comes from it. Besides, doesn't matter what you do, everything is a sous-like anyway lol (this other day I saw a card game about playing poker with anime girls in the front page of souls-like games on steam lmao).
That's a mechanic that doesn't even fit all the games they shoehorn it in. Fallen Order in particular did not benefit from them copying Dark Souls. In fact I'd argue it's much worse because of it.
@@DeterminationV5 Then they should identify games by what they actually are and not by what they think they are like. Best way to spend money and time to know what you are looking at instead of what it is like and this applies to everything in life.
fire video. subscribed, liked, commented, clicked the bell, shared it to my family, played it at my grandma's funeral (she was resurrected), this video cured my stage four terminal cancer, my depression, and fixed my unrelenting habit to call shitting while constipated a souls-like experience. cant wait to see more
Love to see it, hope the wife stops cheating too
KKJKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK
That made me laugh so hard
S tier comment
Saying Souls like is like the Darksouls of saying jojos reference
Poker is like the Dark Souls of Uno
Cheating is like the Dark Souls of a faithful relationship
Killing someone is the Dark Souls of hiding from the cops
War is like the Dark Souls of Airsoft
shit is the dark souls of piss
Not studying for a final is the dark souls of education
The real problem is that most developers miss the real point and don't even put a single barefoot maiden in their games, like c'mon guys! it's called soles like for a reason!
The real soul of dark souls
The sole reason dark souls is dark souls is the sole dark soles of dark souls
@@Roggoll you hurt my head
It's spelled "souls" not "soles" so don't be mad at From Softwhere.
@@mrjorsh you must be fun at parties..
"Demons Souls is the Dark Souls of Souls games" is something my friends and I like to say to mock the over-use of soulslike
You have friends????
@@megabruh8878 his friend is the dark souls of friends
Oddly enough in reality Dark Souls 2 is the Dark Souls of souls games
Elden Ring my favorite souls-like now
Wow you're so smart
Fun fact: FPS used to be called "Doom clones".
Open World games after Grand Theft Auto 3 were GTA clones/killers
Saw someone refer to Ultrakill as a "Doom clone" and goddamn I died inside
@@tehcodekid8421 tbf according to 1990s standards it is
Maybe 2 people you knew called them doom clones but that was definitely not a popular thing. People didn't even use the word clone like that back in the day, gaming was way too new. Not to mention most popular shooters for years were ID Software games(Quake, Doom, Wolfenstein) so what you are saying makes even less sense. Counter-Strike popularized the FPS genre and by that time most players didn't even know Doom exists. The clone topic got a main start with open-world games after GTA clones started popping up like Saints Row 1.
@@minartson
"Maybe 2 people you knew called them doom clones but that was definitely not a popular thing."
Then what did they call them?
"People didn't even use the word clone like that back in the day, gaming was way too new."
Which decade are you referring to?
"Counter-Strike popularized the FPS genre and by that time most players didn't even know Doom exists."
Sounds like someone doesn't understand the history of FPS-type games. Windows 95 was literally marketed as being able to play Doom.
I am calling abusive households: "soulslike parenting" from now on
Do,it is,I survive,it's not actually a joke.
It's not a troll,I don't have freinds/rights,getting rights means force,force means hurting,hurting is a big risk=it's not because of getting attacked back by the 1 I'm attacking,inperiam and rebellions 40k.
@@soccerandtrack10 Skill issue
@@averagemexicanm8750 fr he just needs to block, parry, and dodge
Except its only challenging but forgets the fair part
In Japan they are called "shinige" (dying games or something like that), games where dying and coming back, learning from your mistakes is part of the mechanic and usually it's implemented in the story as well.
Coincidentally, we've also got Sekiro that implements these fundamentals too
@@JimmyPizzaDelivery How dare Sekiro by FromSoft copy Dark Souls by FromSoft. Are there really no original ideas anymore? smh
@@majortritone armored core🙁
Wow🗿
Literally NES and SNES boss rushes (unless you mean in the story the character is immortal).
Everyone knows that Kirby's Dream Course was the first Souls-like game. Why do you think Miyazaki made Mimic Tear the strongest thing in the game? Because Kirby does the same thing and he's the strongest character in fiction. I rest my case, OJ didn't do it.
Ah jeez, oh fuck I didn’t even think about that. This whole time I was thinking summon slender man at 3:00am challenge was the first soulslike experience
My first souls like experience was living in the inner city,
@@illeagle9560 damn bro. My uncle gave me my first soulslike experience
@@NasuPrime Uncle Lester?
@@illeagle9560 yeah man :(
I'm a huge fan of soulsbornekiroring and i'm so glad miyazaki invented difficulty, this is truly a soulsbornekiroring moment.
I personally loved it when he put Morbius in Elden Ring as a summonable NPC and said, “It’s Morbin’ Time.”
@@HaydenHero morbius in 2024 is crazy
He didn't invent difficulty he just revolutionized it
@@littlenugget7946 Why am I reading this in the Northernlion voice
@@cthulhu4411right and even that is false
Fromsoftware has not done anything unique its just that casuals dont play anything more than fifa madden cod so this is what happen
"Souls-like parenting" killed me. Very souls-like humor.
Really caught me off guard
Gotta roll through them attacks
@@pepperidgefarmsremembers92 don't forget to summon as well
Your comment is very souls like.
@@Yousef77077 Your reaction to that comment is very souls- like.
Remember when all FPS games were called "Doom Clones"?
Edit: The point I tried to make here is that as the FPS genre evolved, Doom's copy-cats took fewer and fewer elements from the Doom gameplay loop. As a result, the only similarities Doom shared with these other games (post-1996 when "Quake" was released) was that they were in first person and had shooting-based combat, thus narrowing down the definition to an extremely flexible category.
As for how this relates to Souls-Likes, FromSoftware made more and more changes to the Dark Souls formula in subsequent games, adding and subtracting various features, like adding rallying in Bloodborne and removing the stamina bar in Sekiro. As a result, we ended up with games that played very differently as a whole while still having the same core mechanics.
History repeats itself
Those are called boomer shooters
@@Eking-su3tr I would argue that "boomer shooters" are a different thing; I think of a boomer shooter as a game made in 2020* or later trying to emulate a FPS from the early 90s, but often with even more action added to the gameplay as if to set itself apart as self-aware. (And also to not be confused with an old @$$ 'doom clone'. *I did reference urban dictionary)
Thanks for reading 😄
@@Eking-su3tr boomer shooters are something else, like that dusk game
Bcs most games that came out right after DOOM and were FPS were literally DOOM clones
The first and most influential videogame of all time is Pong, so I'd say Dark Souls is a Ponglikelikelikelikelikelike-lite
The way you must time your paddle to hit the ball at the right time, timing your dodge roll is basically the same exact thing. I can’t believe Miyazaki could be so unoriginal
You view Pong with a screen, and you view Souls with a screen as well. Honestly shameless.
Based shinpachi pfp
@@jojonta2119 based Hollow Knight battle stance pfp
@@silvergotrekt You're alive when you are playing pong, and also when you're breathing. Never realized life was a ponglike
your voice is so calming i fell asleep, not in a bad way.
you could talk about your what tea you like the most and i would still listen
This is voice is the dark souls of souls like voice
Bro... as someone who completed Cuphead, that person not being able to get past a NORMAL video game obstacle hurts me on a physical and mental level.
This alone, after 2 years ago since I quit cuphead because of the froggies boss, once I literally had been seeing these FUCKING obstacle clips, I had to come back to prove I ain't 50% just like them, and now cuphead is at my top 5 games of all time
It's important to know that the same journalist that infamously couldn't do that tutorial also ended up finishing the game later on and gave it strong praise and recommendation.
I literally cannot belive that he was being serious, that review had to have been a joke or he was having a stroke or something there isn't a fucking timeline in the multiverse where a child can't jump that one obstacle, let alone a grown ass man who gets PAID to do it
most likely did it on purpose
@ROSENROT not rlly important
“and really makes you feel like you have the exaggerated swagger of a medieval fantasy protagonist” is probably the best thing ever said
it is one of the things that makes sekiro feel so good, you feel like a shinobi
*poise
I always thought a "soulslike" game was when enemies respawn each time you "rest" or level up, and losing your level up points each time you died. Dark Souls was the first game to introduce me to those mechanics.
Yes, it is what it is.
Final someone who understands it
I always thought of souls like games having the same/similar combat mechanics, leveling sites, and respawning enemies.
The 3 main soul mechanics
That actually sounds more like a Metroidvania or a Rouge-like. But I don't know if there are older games than Rouge that already had those mechanics.
So mincraft souls like?
I think part of the problem is when a game comes out and gets labled as something because it shares things; it is automatically compared to the game prior. This can be a bad thing becauae some games would be seen as better if they werent compared to other games just because it is similar in some ways
It's really sad any time a game that hard is instantly a souls like even if there nothing alike
Chess is a soulslike frfr
@@NasuPrime real life is soulslike Sadge
@@roghider3552 I mean, it kinda has the same hollow mechanics tho
@@roghider3552 if you think about it though, real life is the best soulslike you'll get
@@NasuPrime chess is easy, I beat my 5 year old cousin every single time
Why do people call it soulsbornekiro when soulsborne die twice sounds so much better?
Soulsborne die twicen ring
Soulsbornering die twice
Or Eldensoulsborne die twice
Demon’skirosoulsbornedie twice ring
@@mayonnaise2396 I think demon is included in the souls
I'd rather just call it soulsborn
As stupid as it sounds, I would have thought part of the things that make something “soulslike” would be the fact of dying and losing your souls/runes or whatever it is
I mean you're correct. Souls like games punish you for dying. Most people assume that punishment is going back to a save spot, then progressing through areas you've been before until you reach the point you were at. But souls/runes also belong in that category. You lose some of them when you die, and you have to fight more enemies till you get the amount you had before
I don't think it should be the case, survival games tend to do that where you lose all your gear and then have to go back for it. Even MMOs like Perfect World International, you'd lose your experience points when you die (but dying wasn't as easy).
The problem is that souls games do something so particularly engrained with the game itself, it's hard to pick it apart to see what the real essence of a souls-like game is.
I think for me what makes souls-like games is having all enemies you defeated respawn after you sit at the checkpoint, otherwise you can kill everyone and as long as you don't use checkpoints, nobody would respawn. That's the core mechanic, the game revolves around that, because now you can choose to rest and redo the whole challenging (or easy) enemies all over again, or keep exploring without reviving anything but risk getting ambushed while low on resources.
Have you played Stranger of Paradise?
It checks a lot of souls-like elements, except it's linear and level-based, and you don't lose anything other than the magic you've accumulated from other fights, so your definition of dying and losing souls isn't exactly valid in that way anymore.
Either that, or my definition is wrong and stranger of paradise is not a souls-like.
i think that cycle is part of it, but there's also certain gameplay quirks that make a game feel like a souls game
i-frame dodges being central to combat, favoring calculated attacks over combos/flashy moves, etc all kind of set dark souls apart from hack-n-slash and character action in interesting ways
but then that leads me to ask: why isn't monster hunter a "soulslike"? what genre is it, and why aren't they lumped together somehow?
probably the core gameplay loop like you said
Is Terraria soulslike then?
*Minecraft is the dark souls of sandbox games*
hey Nasu! great video bro. just love the tone of your voice makes it so easy to listen, and i really admire this presepective and agree with it completely. even as a hardcore fromsoftware fan i agree that putting lables on any artform limits the potential of its creators and also tunnels the expectations of what people think a game Shoul be played like. beautiful talk. thank you!
2:20 abused by your parents? Sounds like a skill issue. I could parry dads belt by the age of 9
Me personally, I just dodge roll. That’s just me tho
@@NasuPrime i just go hollow
@@faku1350 don't you dare go hollow
@@faku1350 No cost too great...
"Yeah, just git GOOD!!!"
I think "Soulslike" will eventually give way to a proper genre name, after all, every first person shooter used to be a "Doom Clone"
dark rpg i think, drama rpg, i dont know, souls like for me is just aesthetics, every soulslike has the dark atmosphere, but the rest is just rpg
@@RastQwQ too vague. dark fantasy + rpg encompasses a lot. soulslike gets the point across and rolls off the tongue.
Yeah I'm currently still in that process with stuff like Minecraft clones versus sandbox games
@@billjones642Elsa doesn't really describe what the game is about souls like genre games have aesthetic writing and game design conversations to them that make it unique
Shame that it already existed and everyone knew. It's masochism. Call a space a space.
“When developers stick firmly to a blueprint, they’re designing backwards, creating a game that conforms to establish game mechanics rather than designing elements that’ll best compliment their game.” This is a brilliant quote, and has been at the forefront of my mind as I try do create my own small, passion projects.
Idk, sometimes the mechanics are the most appealing part and it would ruin the experience to change it too much.
The irony that Souls games follow their own blueprint though ...
@@portofthoughts4477 Not really. Sekiro and Elden ring have such massive differences it’s hard to say they follow the same blueprint as the dark souls games.
@@chaytonhurlow840 it would ruin *your* experience. if you prefer games that stick to the conventional "soulslike" blueprints, that's good for you. many people want there to be more creativity and originality, not the same game over and over in a different font.
there is an expectation that game devs have to conform to these mechanics no matter their core ideas, or that they have to mould the design into something that fits a genre name.
Games don't have to be the next dark souls, rogue or metroid- they just have to be the next game, and mechanics do not make up everything a game has to offer. there is so much more to every title than just the soulsborne design
goodluck on your projects! i've always wanted to make a game, but i have no idea how to code... i'm more interested in doing the art side of things :)
Feeling like I have the exaggerated swagger of a medieval fantasy protagonist is exactly why I love Dark souls, among many reasons. You hit the nail on the head my guy
the problem with "soulslike" is it gets slapped on any game that has any similar mechanics no matter how unique the game is. the only soulslike i've played that feels anything like a souls game is code vein, and that's because it is literally just anime dark souls
This implies that dark souls isn’t already anime
Lmao yeah just slapped it in real life because it's soulslike too
Dark Souls is a Ninja Gaiden-like with less combos
The funny thing is DS1 crowned the "soulslike" genre *specifically because* it was so unique it was like nothing that came before.
Slapping the genre onto any difficult game ironically goes against the game's very nature as a genre-defining game.
Well you do have games like mortal shell, lords of the fallen, and remnant:from the ashes (i think thats what its called) which do obviously deserve that label, its a very real sub genre now
I don't think that people are calling "Rouguelikes" like that because they are derivatives of Rogue, but more because Rogue was the first game with random level generation and that forces you to restart from the beginning if you die, so it's more like people defined a genre with those specific characteristics and named it "Roguelike" in honor of the first game that brought those on the table
If a game does not have those two characteristics it is not a "Roguelike", just like a film that doesn't evoke fear isn't an "horror", that's why the term "Roguelite" was invented, to classify games that don't force you to restart completely anew every time you die, instead having a semblance of slow overall progress, wich admittedly made them more popular than regular "roguelikes"
Same with "Metroidvania", people usually use it to refer to any 2D open world game with zones blocked behind certain abilities, but it usually isn't for comparing it directly with the source material, but instead to say that: "it's a 2D game that instead of many levels it has a big map with certain zones blocked behind certain abilities", so unless it ticks all of those boxes it isn't considered a "Metroidvania"
These terms serve to help define what the game is about, because to a game there's more than just "horror" and "thrill" there is also gameplay elements, people use these terms to quickly describe what's the feels like, just as they would use "platformer" or "RPG"
The problem with "Soulslike" is that dark souls has too many characteristics, wich makes it unclear wich of them are necessary to define a "soulslike" game, so people just began to give that adjective to any game that had any of those characteristics in it, and that instead of using it to help define a genre, but mostly to "accuse" other games, as if using any of those elements was bad in any way
That last point spot on. Ask two different people was “soulslike” even means and chances are you’ll get two completely different answers
I think what everyone that enjoy From Soft games can agree with is that they are not hard per say. They are simply a fair challenge. And that the essence of the experience they give you is the experience of leveling up yourself, not your character.
@@16m49x3 "Fair challenge" does not always hold true in Fromsoft games but yeah the difficulty isn't the selling point and Miyazaki has even said that it's not purposefully hard, he just needs difficulty present to tell the kind of story he wants to tell.
@@gaszwyn449
Theres very few challenges that are not perfectly managable with some knowhow.
There's people running these games without taking any dmg
Yes and no. Roguelikes are also tile and turn based. Just because your game incorporates random level design and perma death features with meta progression doesn't make it a roguelike. Caves of Qud, Cogmind, Tales of Maj Eyal, etc. are all traditional roguelikes that follow that original game design and choice. There is an important distinction between roguelikes and roguelites.
This was too funny, I swear these videos are motivation for me to wanna put out great funny and amazing content myself
See, this is also my problem with “lifelike” items. The cops always come around and say things like, “man, that manakin is so lifelike,” and “what lifelike hands your doll has.” It’s really frustrating both because they’re always bothering me, and my art of taxidermy never gets the appreciation it truly deserves.
Oh.
Not meaning to be rude but what type of comments would you like to receive? Isn't taxidermy about bringing the object as close to the real thing?
@@darkshat3077 It was a joke. He's making the joke that he does taxidermy with people's bodies.
@@agentj3627 I’m stupid my bad
@@agentj3627 idk why I read that and thought it was completely normal till I saw your comment lmaoo
It's just a matter of convention. When someone asks you "what kind of game is x?" You can say that it is sort of soulslike in combat but with emphasized platforming for example. Linguistic tools like these are always handy to express fairly complex concepts without going into too much detail, and that's what it is all about.
I can't agree more.
THISSSSSS. I have a friend that just HATES it when game reviewers and journalists compare video games with each other while talking about them. Like ''this game is like breath of the wild, but with some rouguelike elements yadayadayada'' ''this game is very soulslike and also has metroidvania style progression'' ''this game is like X game and Y game had a baby!''
He hates it, and he's all like ''does every game with grass have to be a breath of the wild??'' ''Did fromsoft invent difficulty???'' ''is Jazz in a videogame automatically a Persona 5 inspired game???''
The thing he doesn't get, is that you can't explain all the nuances and intricacies of every game, let alone a new and never seen one. We as human beings use language as a way to communicate to others why a game out there might be similar to something else and in doing so, maybe informing them if a game is for them or not.
There's a popular game out there, so you compare new stuff to it when they're similar in order to convey as much info in a short amount of time. People don't really have all day these days.
Thing is, he looses sleep over people mislabling games and comparing games when they're not THAT similar. Like people calling hollow knight a soulslike. I mean, I get it, there's people out there calling it the wrong way, but who cares? have fun.
@@joshy-noha I think the problem is when someone knows the game and someone who doesn't know the game.
When you compare to many games that don't make sense in compering them you get bit warped perception for the game.
If one described hallow knight as souls like but 2D, it sounds weird to someone who knows the game, if would just been better to say that it is a metrovenia. Metrovenia games have different combat from each other, like Death's Gambit to La-Mulana.
That’s understandable within a conventional conversation between people but when it comes repeatedly from game reviewers or people that call them self that it’s extremely lazy
@@joshy-noha I do think it can turn into a lazy way of describing though. Dead Cells is referred to as a 2d dark souls when in reality it's a lot more like a hack'n'slash fused with Ninja Gaiden. ANY open world 3d game is referred to as BOTW clone. It's not the comparisons, it's that the community then warps it and starts calling games clones for little reason and gatekeeping over the genre(e.g only good difficulty game is dark souls, because the others are clones)
You did a great job on this Dunkey-like video. Thanks.
It’s very Strand-like in a sense
Owned
It really made you feel like batman
More of a Dunkey-Lite given he didn’t mention Super Mario Brothers 2
It was Dunkeylike-like. A little bit but not much
this is the exact premise of my research paper im writing for college and helped me a lot for points i wanted to cover, thank you !
which class is this?
You could say it'd the dark souls of research papers
good video, subbed. Thank you for pointing this relevant issue out without sounding aggresive or using lame arguments
Preciate it man. And yeah level headed argument definitely helps when tryna argue something. Loose labels and generalizations are somewhat of a pet peeve
@@NasuPrime Unrelated but what is the outro song? I may be blind and didn’t see it in the description
@@FeelsGrimMan any special orders from dmc5
I remember that it actually pissed me off when I was enjoying Hollow Knight because of the atmosphere and exploration and a friend of mine came out saying that "Cuphead is just better because both are games about evading difficult attacks but Cuphead has better looking graphics"
as someone who 100%ed both games, what the fuck was your friend talking about
@@justarandomguy983big thing is, that person never played HK and the only footage they've ever seen are pantheons.
Wtf he most definitely hasn't played hollow knight lol
@@justarandomguy983😅
Nothing wrong about having an opinion, both games are amazing.
I once read something along the lines of "genres are for the person in the video games store to know which aisle to put them in". In other words, they shouldn't be a guide for the designers. Instead they are a (very rough) guide for the buyer.
Except that designers want sales. For example, shooters are the top-selling games of the last decade. A developer would want their game in/on a shooter-specific aisle so that they would get more foot traffic. Throw anything anywhere and it would be harder for them to sell as much. Muddy the waters on what your game is, and it also makes it more difficult to promote based on genre.
It also has managed to trap fun action gameplay in dark settings.
Heck, I'd go so far as to say the better the 3D combat system, the more it's expected to be in the goriest most gritty style imaginable.
see the problem is when i read this i tried to imagine a bright game with this combat. I imagined a princess fighting bright fantasy creatures using candy weapons. and then imagined her using a sharpened giant candy cane as a pike and fucking shit up. Its just cooler
@@trumanbadra8003 even a more balanced fantasy would work
I loved it at "We all know difficulty didn't exist until Miyazaki invented it in 2009"
It really feels like there is just this shared mass psychosis over this game. It is literally just a moderately difficult medieval fantasy game that doesn't have a baby mode. I have no fucking idea how it became synonymous with difficulty.
Me too. Even Hitman: Codename 47 was harder than any of souls
@@ИапГоревич Commercial success in Western countries, I'd reckon. While Hitman, Touhou etc. were surely harder, Dark Souls sold 33 Million copies, Hitman C47 just half a million.
Because of the learning curve\the game not explaining much. Makes it seem harder when you first try it. Also dying alot being an intended part of the experience. For alot of people who played this was their first experience with those kind of mechanics
You've obviously never played a souls game if that's your analysis of the games
@@elijiahcater7043 i've platinumed all of them. Probably run through DS1 8 or 9 times at this point . They're not easy but a lot of games are harder. Also if you select a game at random with difficulty settings and pick a higher one, it will be harder. People just get mad as fuck that they have to think a little bit about their actions.
This was a very video and made me feel emotions. I will be calling all videos like this Nasulikes from now on.
Honestly valid. Too many Nasu clones on this website
2:10
Then she took the kids, the house, all my money, and feels like my soul too.
Soulslike?
Holy this was your first ever video on channel this was very well produced and edited.
The "aspects" of a souls game
-limited healing
-stamina bar
-emphasis on animations
-storytelling through experiences
What should define a souls game
-groundhogs day. Fight die learn
After I beat sekiro, I looked into ghost of tsushima. I looked into reviews and people called it a soulslike. And it was a very similar game.
It's japanese... that's all there is that's similar between these 2 games.
Ghost of tsushima would be closer to batman arkham and assassins creed.
People try to piggie back on the bacl of the success of other devs.
Just look at what the dceu tried to do, copy the mcu instead of making its own path.
Okay but you also just described Monster Hunter p much.
@@TOnySchAnneL9000
>Storytelling through expression
u forgot the bosses we love the bosses
I don’t mind calling something a soulslike but I think people use it too often I don’t think that most games categorised as one are too close to dark souls
True the one that close is code vein and it's even has an anime style too!
1:30
Can we give this man some credit for the time it must have taken to layer the player above the text here. It's a great touch.
all those parry's put me into tears.
one must be above all to acquire such a power!
sensational, Magnificent.
I agree that genres are antithetical to creativity, but they are a convenient shorthand that's used by people to discover your game. I think you have to take the bad with the good here: ignore genre completely while creating and be thankful for it afterwards.
Exactly! Soulslike doesn't just mean difficult, it's also about dark atmosphere and atmosphere storytelling. Because this genre is new people associate it too much with dark souls, but like rouge likes and metroidvanias it'll at some point stop being about the games the genre stemmed from and just be a better descriptor of a specific type of game. Create a good game first, and then categorize it so people can find it.
@@breadwizard3341 but dark atmosphere and atmosphere storytelling is not new... a thousand games before demon souls would fit that description.
@@FrenkieWest32”it’s *ALSO* about dark atmosphere and atmosphere storytelling” , that’s all
@@deathhy7590 what part of that is supposed to make a new point?
@@FrenkieWest32 cherry picking wording to single out a single point when the comment clearly never implies that is what i’m pointing out, try again
Good stuff man, looking forward to seeing more Nasu-likes in the future.
Nasu-likes are everywhere bro. Can't believe they copied my whole flow before I even created it frfr
This was a really good analysis of the genre. I absolutely adore Nasulike videos
Eh, I wouldn't call this a Nasulike video, it's too different from Nasu. I would say it's more of a Nasulike-like video.
@@Jamseth_Ingramious a nasulite*
That Gris music caught me off guard and almost activated the tears fountain, how dare you. Very thought-provoking and well-structured video, was a pleasure watching.
If a game is labeled a metroidvania or a soulslike or a roguelike or a rougelite, I generally know what to expect, and just need to check reviews for details / quality. That's what labels are for, and I like it that way.
nooooo you can't just say something is like something else as if that were the way human brain made sense of new things and differentiated between categories noooooo
I think the problem is more with the overuse of the word, some people see a hard game and say it is a soulslike
This way of thinking just kills innovation.
@@mariobisignani4477 What way of thinking kills innovation how?
@@thewhyzer wanting to classify everything, especially works of art like music, books and videogames. I understand that some generic labels are needed in order to make sense of things, but I think that we went too far, especially in regards to music and videogames. By doing that, creators (especially not experienced ones) will tend to create stuff which has to follow some general artificial rules in order to be classified as "soulslike" or "vaporwave" and be accepted/digested by the general public.
Loved the tone, the analysis, the pace, the quality of both the voice record and editing, and the fact and the way I learned things! 🖤
This video is so well done, when we got to the outro I was surprised and wanted more, good job.
More coming soon 👍
Although I don't entirely agree with your final take, you gave me a lot of interesting insights. Thank you.
I'm sure someone's already mentioned this but the distinction between roguelike and roguelite is not based on how different it is from rogue, but whether or not there are upgrades that persist between runs. Few games these days are true roguelikes (noita is an example where the lack of progression between runs is shown mainly in the larger role that knowledge of the games mechanics plays compared to other games.)
How should "upgrades between runs" be defined though. In the given example of BoI, you unlock more content, but nothing that's truly a persistent upgrade that makes the next run any easier. So you are effectively starting every run the same, like rogue, but it is still labled a rogue lite.
@@ODCrab You could argue that unlocking better items kinda makes the game easier tbh
Though I personally do not make a distinction between rogue like and lite
@@ODCrab Technically speaking any upgrades or things that affect the world counts, even if they don't make the game easier. In a roguelike the game is exactly the same every run, besides the original randomized elements(if they exist).
@@joaopedrocruz6432 like hell it does. By that logic a true rogue like that gets an expansion or even a patch is now a roguelite.
Imo, the difference of the two rouge game are
Roguelites grants you the ability to directly upgrade your Character before the start of a run ( whether more skills if invested, more weapon unlocks)
Roguelikes are those game where you can't upgrade your Character unless during the game
Character selectable games (games where you can choose your character) in relevance to the two games can be debatable on what makes what but most of the time, one can say that this doesn't affect the distinction
Roguelites: Hades ( Mirror upgrades)
Roguelikes: Slay the Spire ( No upgrades on characters unless a run has started)
Great video, i'm really happy this was randomly recommended to me because believe me brother, this exact same thing grinds my gears and makes me mad so it's nice to see someone finally making a great point about it.
Didn’t expect to see Gris but it was a welcomed surprise. That game is a hidden gem, like walking through an art piece!
In the end, I still think that the problem largely lies within people, but not in the genre/games itself.
People should allow themselves to express their thoughts and ideas more freely, instead of confining them within the word "soulslike".
Or something like that
Nah, the problem are the people and the carbon-copies of dark souls
That word is used to alert others of a game that have a ridiculously punishing combat for them to avoid it.
I appreciate you mentioning that every single game is derisive, because that is so true of every art form. As an artist I get in debates all the time on whether or not you should use samples in your production, but I've always argued exactly what you said - EVERY piece of art was inspired by something, almost always another piece of art
I literally liked the video for your voice alone, but stayed for the content. Awesome video! I laughed so hard at some parts 😂
voicelike
I just love Soulsbornekiroring games so much❤
I love darkmonsekbornringsouls so much
I think a problem i see is that “like” refers to a gestalt of things that can be found in a landmark title(s). which I really think is necissary for catagorization in a topic with so many elements as video games. Like, the fact that you and game makers toolkit had different definitions of what soulslike consists of, combat, or combat loop indicates this. and others might say tone or world or 30 other elements.
Its descriptive of having part of a whole that makes up x game which is extremely USEFUL (thats the reason why we use it) to communicate complex and often slightly changing elements in multiple games.
I dont think this is so much a problem as it is the nature of language.
For me, who does like roguelikes, I find roguelite a USEFUL term, because many roguelites DONT have the elements I am looking for when I feel like playing a roguelike game. I feel there is a palpable demarcation in genre. The turn based table top roleplaying experience of a roguelike is distinct from the fast action of a Deadcells. So its of use to demarcate.
I actually encourage the use of two degrees of “commonality” between _-likes. because its useful for people (like me) to know how close an experience is to game x. for example “like” meaning that it has more structual similarities than differences, and “lite” for things that have obvious similarities, but do major things to shake up a formula.
essentially describing degrees of separation from an iconic formula.
The fact that we reference things naturally in relation to something else shows the utility of this form of communication. Its just a specific lense. I think instead of seeing this as a “bad” thing, just embracing that its a referential milestone term describing degrees of separation would be better.
“it is rather close to dark souls”
and
“it has some elements that evoke similar experiences to dark souls”
and leave it at that withought positive or negative implications.
Its DESCRIPTIVE rather than PRESCRIPTIVE.
I think he finds the problem of people calling things that are not close to descriptive of the genre.
Many games have been called soulslike that have no uses to be called soulslike. Even the community of souls games made from the devs are disagreeing to call sekiro a soulslike game. Using what you said, Skerio would be described as a soulslite, it doesn't have the similarities of soulslike games but it is similar in the form of it.
Even -like and -lite have their own sub-genre that makes the game unique to the rest or similar to others.
@@yamsSMP He is wrong on the premise as well.
Since there are allot of platforming games but not all are the same.
If you keep adding tags to a game, it will the size of moby dick.
If he thinks soulslike is a bad term to use, he should look over at the RPG term. It lost it's meaning a long time ago.
Comment too wordy wont read great point though i think
@@epepepe7178 yah, i have a problem with that when i think too hard. I need to learn to write more concisely and to the point.
im from another country and tbh u made me laugh the shit out of me. this video was amazing keep doing content in that way with ur awesome and hilarious editing i loved it! +1 sub
Thank you so much! Hope to put out my next video this week
At least you're not constipated anymore.
I agree with everything you said, but i can see why games cling to hard to tags and genres and sub-genres compared to movies. As games live from their interactivity, it is harder to judge what they are all about from just watching images or a video about it (And there might be hunderts of hours of game experience in it, how do you describe all that to somebody else?), so tags and genres help to identify quickly what this game is all about. We should not do it and let games stand for themselves, but languages always tries to be simplistic and efficient, so when i recommend games to my friends i will probably say something like: "Yeah try that game it is like darkest dungeon, but has a bit more metroidvania in it."
Which game is metroidvania darkest dungeon? Sounds right up my street
Exactly, noone complains about the "Metroidvania" tag.
But this video is a complain about "soulslike"
We do the same with music and film. By talking about themes, pacing/rhythm, directors/producers and so on. His point is about inspiration and making a new subgenre specifically because it uses a dodgeroll.
Edit: dunno why I typed this. I can see you say the exact same thing as I did, but better. I'm just high, sorry
@@TheOUTSIDER1995 nobody complains that lords of the fallen would be called a souls-like. But nioh? Eh. Hollow Knight? Not even close. Etc. You don't call battlefield a ''doom-like'' eventhough it is probably more reasonable to do that.
It makes me think of music genres. I listen to EDM mainly, and the amount of subgenres that can be classified by something as simple as an extra kick in the drum pattern or what types of bass sounds they use is absurd. Like I get it, it makes sense to categorize things so you can find more of what you like, but it sparks some really dumb genre arguments that ultimately lead nowhere lmao. I hear the same is true with metal subgenres.
I have just started trying to create a video game, and have been describing it to my friends when I tell them, I want to take this aspect of Metroidvania. Still, also I want to take this from a souls-like game, can't seem to understand that I don't want to be constricted to the borders of what people have already done, and they tell me, "Well you can't do that, then it's no longer a Metroidvania!" I am trying to be creative and unique, not same-old same-old, this video inspired me greatly, more people should watch this, it certainly inspired me to not be repetitive, and to create something new.
When he said “the exaggerated swagger” I fell out… this guy is criminally underrated
WOW , real good quallity video,well done.
Thanks, I appreciate you watching! Just uploaded a new video, check that out if you’d like to see more
This channel is awesome, I can’t wait till you blow up so I can have more good content in my feed.
Much thanks, pushing out a new vid as soon as I can
It’s crazy how just today I was thinking exactly about this (the way game genre names are just about comparing games to others that came before)
I was wondering if anyone else in online communities are talking about this. I am so glad I found this video that puts all of my similar thoughts into a coherent presentation and adds even more to it. Dark Souls isn't the first difficult boss-rush game; it's the first popular one to do that since NES and SNES titles. I especially loved your last line, "Games have already evolved passed just being 'Souls-likes," and it's time the language we use to refer to them does the same." Perfect message I hope more game developers hear and learn.
Hallow knight in my opinion does what you said perfectly. The only similarities that it has with souls are it being the same genre, and having a similar way of story telling. It’s easily one of if not my favorite games of all time. And I am sure when silk song comes out, it’s going to be even better
I think the way the hitbox functions in souls games is hugely important to how the comparison should be made and is often missed on many ,,
The hit box in souls games is pretty much right down the to character design and allows for some crazy shit that can't happen in other games like say devilmay cry where the hitboxes are insanely big so you can keep combos going to get that sweet SSS rank but in souls games the hit boxes are designed to be punishing and "realistic" in a way and I'm using that term really lightly
Also just the way the combat is in general is hugely important to dark souls games not just the difficulty, the combat just feels so much more rewarding then other rpgs or action games
And sekiro was probably the most rewarding combat ever in any game, no other studio has been able to do sword fighting as well as fromsoft did with sekiro and they turned their own combat system upside down to it and it was a massive success but still souls like nonetheless idk
Sekiro was my first souls game cause I didn't like dark souls at first but after playing sekiro I decided to give them an honest try and used a guide to help decide on a class/build to go for and really enjoyed it actually ,
Sekiro is by far still the best tho, better combat then elden ring but elden ring has more shit to do and is the better overall game by far
But sekiro combat is just 😘🤌
Just recently bumped into your channel and all I can say is all your videos are so well made. Plus your voice is like velvet mate
algorithm brought me here, before I went smash that sub i thought i was watching a million subs channel's content. you are crazy man
Ah yes, Soulsbornekiroringlike, the best genre.
i disagree with your opinion on rouge-lite, just because i think the category diference helps people when searching for particular traits.
that (at least i think) should be the main point of the concept of genres in the first place, a tool that helps people find games with the traits they like
it still sounds dumb ''Hello guys so this is a rougelike game but not so rougelike but still got some rougelike features that would make it a rouge like but diferent then a true rougelike so we call it a rouge like like aka rouge lite cuz the game is still a rouge like but not arouge like'' try to read that without choking
@@chadikhr7258 Roguelite - a roguelike which features permanent upgrades that benefit you in subsequent runs.
Is it inferable from the name alone? No, you have to dig for it. But it's a clear distinction nonetheless when you actually comprehend it.
I disagree with your opinion of the word "rouge" being validly usable over "rogue".
@@Mk_Otaid there seem to be an insane amount of people not knowing how to spell "rogue" for some reason
Reminds me of the honest trailer for rogue one
@@naiiin6949 Whenever I see somebody use the word rouge instead of rogue I instantly visualize a fedora-tipping snowflake kinda person.
As a newb game dev, I definitely appreciate the commentary, man. :-)
Making me rethink my verbiage surrounding gameplay categorization
i'm going to shout this at every game dev i see until one of you gets to work: first person shooter trading card game where the cards in your deck determine what enemies and weapons appear in the level s
@@007kingifrit Interesting concept
That's really clever video. I also see this problem and I see this in other medias than games. I would say that there is so much stuff now, while also being so different, that not everything really suits for an existing genre, while we also need some names to know beforehand what we deal with. Just because there is so much things it is so important to have some genres/types/names, because it is impossible to go through everything, so we filter stuff based on the search preferences.
Music shows this well too. If something is similar to a genre, but not quite it, they are just called indie/alternative-[put normal genre name here]. I feel like this is a kind of problem, because with the more game derives from the "original" that the genre name was based off, the more it looks like it should not be in that genre, but then without it it could lack one and creating totally new genres all the time, figuring out what elements make it that certain genre etc. would just bring more mess.
I thing that more generalised ideas of genres are better and instead of looking at a thing(be it a game, book, music, film, whatever with different types) as just that one genre, it would be better to look at elements of it and describe it by many different, but generalised types, that could give us some of the information what to expect from a title. It is already in use, like for steam you have those tags and many different websites with game catalogs also use it for years where you just have those longer lists with "action, platformer, 3d, something, something, something".
Sometimes games can really make their way in a community and it feels normal that there might be influences and things called from those, but like it was said before, everything derives from something, so having more generalised terms that can describe certain mechanics/styles is the way to go in my opinion, instead of creating "just like this other game" type of description.
This video genuinely changed the way I think about game genres so much, thank you for this. I really appreciate it.
oH come on lmfao
💀
As someone new to the Souls games, I was hesitant to watch this. For some reason I thought this was just going to be someone shitting all over a franchise I've fallen in love with.
I'm glad that isn't the case. You make a lot of compelling points and I agree with your take on art's inspiration. Great video. Subbed.
Same dude
if you want some non grindy "souls likes" pickup sekiro and hollow knight... they're both great
@@godzillagamer7512 Sekiro is made by Fromsoft so not really a soulslike
@@akiraigarashi2874 uh... I'm pretty sure you mean activision... because fromsoft made dark souls and elden ring...
@@godzillagamer7512 what😂
GRIS was the most magical game I have ever seen! Played it during the first month of lockdown. I am so lucky it is now part of my life, as an experience, as a memory! 💔💔💔
Thank you for bringing up Gris, never got in contact with the game before and it just looks amazing. Will play it soon!
Thank you. Honestly, it bothers me when I know people who just assume if a game is hard it MUST be a “souls-like” game, or if a game has no difficulty slider that it MUST be a “souls-like”. Most the people I know that use the term “souls-like” also have never touched a Souls game, or likely even played any hack-and-slash or adventure game from the last 3 decades…
Personally, I’m a huge 2D Metroid fan, and I actually hate the term “Metroidvania”, because Castlevania only stayed relevant by blantantly copying the 2D Metroid formula, because Castlevania was stagnating and desperate after decreasing popularity.
Castlevania games are just 2D platformers, and are at their core the most basic a game can honestly be, in a good way; Metroid was more or less a 2D dungeon crawler, that relied more on atmosphere and environmental storytelling because of a deliberate choice to have little-to-no dialogue - go figure, the moment they gave Samus a voice, it flopped hard, compared to her occasional monologues during Super and Fusion…
It’s true the industry had trends, with “Doom clones” in the 90’s, but each game was distinctive, even during the “Doom Clone Craze”: Blood was dark, brooding, and attempting satire on horror cliches, but had its own blend of unique weapons and enemies; Strife was essentially a prototype of Deus Ex and System Shock, with sprawling maps filled with NPCs and quests; Witchavrn (while utterly trash) tried to create a more slowed down and ambient dungeon crawler, compared to things like Heretic.
Each game is its own thing - when I first saw Hollow Knight, my first reaction was just 2D platformer, I can’t imagine why people would call it a souls-like… Titan Souls, while an awful game in my mind (and blatantly capitalized off the early Souls hype), has at least got some sense of identity, and a unique (but trash and arbitrarily difficult) aspect of its gameplay.
I still wouldn’t even classify the Souls series as “difficult”, they just make you prioritize reading animations and reacting. The way any of the 4 actual Souls games become difficult is when you get reckless and ignore tells, which, man, like, games have been doing since their inception.
Also, I just want to add, anyone who says “Soulsborne” is the most cringe thing ever. I rarely use “the other c-word”, but, God, it just sounds awful and pretentious - just say “Souls”, because Bloodborne is just Dark Souls 2 with the rally mechanic, stripped down stats, and no blocking… cope.
The Catherine soundtrack caught me off guard, loving the content so far
Ty. Hope you keep loving it 🙏🏾
I really always felt like there was a glaring problem with the "soulsborne" 'genre', and after playing through both Dark Souls and Bloodborne, they are such different games that lumping them under some umbrella genre doesn't do them justice whatsoever. Also, I just recently started Sekiro and "soulsbornkiro" is truly an affront to God.
soulsbornekiroring
I think Sekiro is my fave because it’s so drastically different from the Souls series as a whole and I kind of wish we got more of that
Entirely new system and setting which is really fun
I mean??
It's more that FromSoft is kinda their own genre? Some devs have a really particular flavor, FromSoft is one of them, and even by that standard Dark Souls and BB utilize *extremely* similar gameplay systems. They're kinda like the difference between a tradiitonal 2D fighter and an anime fighter.
I'd like to know why you feel they're so different.
@@colbyboucher6391 That's a good point, maybe saying that they're such different "games" wasn't the right word, a better word would be "experiences" for my point. FromSoft does have their own very specific design philosophy, but the problem I see is when people lump each of their titles into one and call it a genre, that just feels weird to me, and almost like it encourages other devs to just copy what they did, which is basically already what most other "souls-like" games are, which just bogs down From's actual quality experiences. They didn't invent the mechanics they use, they're just the only ones to utilize them in such a successful fashion, and I think Sekiro is proof that it's just them that's unique, not the genre.
@@dgouin99 Bloodborne and Dark Souls are very similar, Bloodborne reduces your build crafting in favour of a slightly more fast-paced game. They are fundamentally very similar games, and I think it's safe to say they belong in a genre together. Genre's exist to give people an idea of a similar experience. The problem is that soulslike is overused and also not well defined. A 'soulslike' could mean similar in combat, in presentation, in the entire experience? It's not well defined. Though soulsborne has been a very popular term, many people obviously are inclined to put them under the same umbrella term.
Depending on what you define as success, there are other games that are well praised for their particular application of the 'soulslike' formula. Salt and Sanctuary, Jedi: Fallen Order, and maybe Dead Cells (I played that one enough to feel that's more roguelite then Souls, but alright Steam).
Just discovered your channel. Thank you for the thought provoking and entertaining work. Love it!
Incredible video, can't wait to see your other content. You're an amazing content creator.
Defining characteristic of Fromsoft games for me have always been the need of persistence and determination.
If you get frustrated too easily or give up, these aren’t the games for you. One has to have persistence and determination to overcome the challenge.
If anything, I would say dark souls is a most like a rhythm game. It’s all about patterns, staying in time with your opponent, and controlling your inputs precisely.
No matter what we call them. I love them
So games from fromsoftware are actually old-nes-games-likes
Yo might be annoying or something… but yesterday was my birthday and I posted a video today about me getting my pewdiepie chair… if u guys can just watch the video and see if u guys like the video that would be awesome, if not have a good day homies:) 👊🙏🙏
It really is like a dark souls boss battle when you’re fighting your drunk dad
💀💀💀
I take your point here but the fact is that such terms are deployed because they are useful. If I describe to a friend that a game is a "Metroidvania" he will immediately understand that its an interconnected map with powerups that unlock new areas, is likely 2D, with an emphasis on exploration and platforming. A tremendous amount or information is quickly conveyed.
*Holds up The Legend of Zelda*
Behold! A Metroidvania!
It makes total sense for these terms to exist, but the issue comes with defining an entire genre by adding a “like” to a game that barely shares its features. Like, I don’t see you calling a burger a “sandwich-like”
@Geassmaster55 that doesn't contradict my point, as the name of that genre actually describes the aspects
@@si-ruskuek1113talk to em chief
@@sgtpastrywhats the problem with describing legend of zelda as a metroidvania to someone who isn’t familiar with it?
Honestly I find this -like classification a very useful way to get a quick gasp of what a game is
It's a useful way to be mislead into believing you think you know something when you don't.
@@TheDocbachFacts
Soulslike parenting, is an instant classic
Fantastic video, well said. I've been saying much the same thing with mostly the same examples (ie. Rogue, Metroidvanias etc) for years but you beat me to making a video so eloquently getting the point across. Well done.
I've been using the term Precision Action for a while as I felt the precise combat was a defining point. Its not about combos but timing, dodging, and and precise movement. After watching your video I'm thinking Endurance is also a key part of the gameplay loop so perhaps the term "Precision Endurance Games" or PEGs is a good one.
A three-letter genre is tradition in gaming; RPG, FPS, RTS, and MMO are all accepted, so why not PEG. Then we could say things like "Elden Ring is an Open World PEG", "Bloodborne is a fast paced Horror PEG", "Nioh is a level-based PEG set in Feudal Japan", and "Hollow Knight is a 2D Exploration Platformer with PEG elements". I think it fits well.
I instantly liked the subtle sarcasm and it was more informative than I could have imagined, without getting too long or didascalic
It requires you to sacrifice 1000 hours of your life for another 1000 hours to finish
The final conclusion of the video was disappointing, in all the games when we die, we change our strategy and repeat the stage until we win. I think games like dead cells change this process because every time you die, the game map changes. and can not maintain anything but the movements of enemies
Great video ! I'm making games on my free time and always end up in the safety of a well defined genre.
After watching your video, I want to be more experimental and try to do some things my way
When dark souls came out, I would compare it to mega man. You have a level, then a boss. You have to memorize the level and figure out the most effective way to get to the boss, then memorize the boss and how to avoid damage and when to attack
Interesting take. I have minimal experience with mega man so can’t speak on it much
@@NasuPrime that’s about where the similarities end. It’s not the best comparison but when it was new and I didn’t know what else to compare it to, it was a good enough, quick and dirty comparison
I called it 3D Symphony of the Night.
@@colbyboucher6391 I mean the entire souls like genre is essentially 3d metroidvania
Bahahahaha souls like parenting, I love it. You sir get a like and a sub 😊👍
These games are absolutely necessary and it's no surprise that they do well.
Most games are made to cater to the lowest common denominator, and even the 5th game in a franchise is made for first time players. (See: God of War Ragnarok)
From Software makes games for gamers and doesn't care if you haven't played the earlier titles.
More companies need to emulate this.
I love that you made a video about this I was just talking to my friends about this exact thing and how I hated that these games were called souls like when they use to be called action rpgs.
Action RPG is a much broader category though. That would apply to any game with RPG elements and action-based combat. But Souls-like is a subgenre that typically involves challenging combat and gradually learning enemy attack patterns, as well as other elements such as checkpoints or refillable healing items.
@@PrometheusMMIV So like Ninja Gaiden
Thank you for this video. I’ve always resented the categorization of creative works (though it’s practically necessary), so I really enjoy your perspective and opinions. Keep it up man, here to support!❤
I mean categories are brilliant if some one came up and asked me to recommendation game and they loved the darksouls ima suggest a souls like game not fortnight
Same if they love fortnight ima suggest games such as apex pubg etc I ain’t gonna suggest darksouls
very interesting. I thought rogue-lite just meant it was a rogue-like with a substantial meta progression system & power scaling between runs. The more you know!
That’s what I thought too. I think the term roguelite has taken on a more nuanced meaning nowadays
It is, the video creator is incorrect. All Roguelites are Roguelikes.
I really think “soulslike” is actually centered around a specific mechanic. Death and bonfires. When you die you lose everything that you didnt lock in at a checkpoint and checkpoints respawn stuff. Think fallen order, hollow knight, blasphemous, nioh, thymesia, and other soulslikes that adhere to that.
@@karlbharnarl butbutbutbutbuuubttbubtutbut if they change the name it'll be hard to find cool sous-like games on steam DDD: (I would never have played hollow knight before if it wasn't for that!). So just call it what you want, making a good game is a whole other topic and if people wanna name it "souls-like" fuck it, no harm comes from it. Besides, doesn't matter what you do, everything is a sous-like anyway lol (this other day I saw a card game about playing poker with anime girls in the front page of souls-like games on steam lmao).
@@karlbharnarl Spot on.
That's a mechanic that doesn't even fit all the games they shoehorn it in. Fallen Order in particular did not benefit from them copying Dark Souls. In fact I'd argue it's much worse because of it.
I call it Hollow-like because Hollow Knight is the first game I've played that does that
That's how it works...right?
@@DeterminationV5 Then they should identify games by what they actually are and not by what they think they are like. Best way to spend money and time to know what you are looking at instead of what it is like and this applies to everything in life.