LAPUA CENTER X; 22LR MATCH AMMUNITION SORTING. DOES IT MAKE A REAL DIFFERECE?
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- Опубліковано 16 лип 2024
- Today we are going to test whether or not sorting match 22lr ammunition has any impact on accuracy at 50 yards.
I take factory Lapua Center X and sort and weigh it then put it head to head against unsorted, straight out of the box, Lapua Center X and see what happens.
I will test this again at 100 yards to see if the results remain consistent with what we find at 50 yards.
00:00 Intro
00:30 Explanation of sorting process
01:39 50 yard test Unsorted ammo
04:10 50 yard test Sorted ammo
06:40 50 yard group close up's
07:22 Closing thoughts - Спорт
You guys will have to wait for part 2 @ 100 yards 😆😆
where is the link ?
While sorting, if you kept one of the heaviest and one of the lightest then shot just those two and do the same with rim thickness now that would be interesting. Great work.
Another great video. Thanks for all the effort you put into it.
Thanks Barry
I always enjoy watching your videos. Long time ago I was a Marine sniper. I had a lot of range time. Think of a barrel change cause I shot it out using black tipped ammo to recover the brass for reloading in my 30 caliber. I have watched other videos by other shooters. By far you are the most accurate shooter on Utube. Your training shows in your targets. I am 74yrs old and have a brand new CZ 543 in my safe. I plan on putting range time then compete locally.
I enjoy sorting the ammo, its surprising the how much each round may vary, I started using a spent .223 round and dropping a 22lr inside the 223 case, it fits perfectly, its a cheap way to start sorting 22 ammo using a caliper, I upgraded to a raven eye custom gauge and a digital dial indicator, it works great, I use the out of spec stuff to warm up the barrel and for plinking
i do the same thing, and my gun likes .044 rim thickness
Definitely interesting results. Thanks Josh. Looking forward to 100yd follow up.
Thanks Cmndo97
Great shooting as always Josh.
Thanks pravata
That is so serious dedication to your craft, great 👍video
Thanks
Another awesome video Josh. I did try it once and had positive results also. Looking forward to the 100 yd results.
Thanks Terry. I appreciate ya
Awesome job Josh keep em coming
Thanks Tony
Thanks for another great vid. I wouldn't have thought that sorting would have had such difference in grouping.
Yeah i have never tried it before. Interesting results
Can't beat your video's !
Thanks Mario that means a ton
Thanks for the video. Seems to be no end to how far down the rabbit hole one can get.
Very true
I laughed out loud! Finally someone admitted it!
Definitely worth the time and effort imo 👍👍
Thanks for the video matey. Saves me from having to do it myself.
Great job! Great content!
Thanks Skoal
Thank You Sir! I have seen SoCalPlinker sort bulk ammo and others with fair results. This test shows tightened groups! 👍🇺🇸 #22aday
Thx for this Information
Enjoy the channel very much. I’m a benchrest shooter ( centerfire & rim) There are lots of videos of quality rimfire ammo being tested. But no one talks about action torque and how it affects accuracy. It applies to rimfire the same as in centerfire. Can change good groups into excellent groups with the same ammo. Would like to see video comparisons on that. Thanks
Just built me a custom 10/22 with a KIDD SS 16.5" bull barrel among other great parts and I have the action torqued at 10" lbs and it shoots down into the .2/.3 inch groups at 50M using CCI standard velocity and Wolf match target / SK standard plus.
Haven't tried any other torque settings because it shoots so damn good as is.......I would like to try this sorting stuff but I don't have any of the tools for it.
Thanks good video and comparison
Thanks
Great video and I half to say your intro is🔥🔥🔥🔥
Thanks willard. In the coming videos you will see more and more subtke editing to hopefully make it better for you guys
"Half" to say????.....Brilliant
@@PursuitofAccuracy your editing is getting really good josh . The intro is awesome for sure . Keep up the great vids brother your doing great
@@70willard i appreciate ya
@@rifflicks hahahahha jerry my spell check I guess wasn’t on point . I just noticed the typo
Thanks for doing that. I recently sorted by rim thickness using the Hornady tool - easier than without. I saw a similar improvement. I shot sorted Center-X in the ABRA (benchrest) Ga state championship match this weekend and shot my best scores ever. I doubt that it will make a big difference in your game unless you’re just missing those steel targets. You do some fine shooting with minimal support!
Thanks a lot Steve. Im still undecided on the sorting but im willing to give it a fair shake
And congrats on your new PB at the match!!!
That is insane. I've seen this done with bulk and yeah the results were startling but you don't expect variances that wide with top tier match ammo.
Great video!!!
THANKS
Appreciate it!
Good video, thanks for doing it.
In my opinion and experience, weighing the rounds is generally useless because you aren't weighing the individual components.
Rim Gauging can be of use, except you missed one important part: the rim thickness is akin to headspace. Poor headspace in a particular chamber equals poor performance.
Once you rim gauge the rounds, test each lot and you will quickly find that one particular size works best in your rifle.
Keep up the good work!
Can confirm. Over a chrono you can see the difference in ES and SD
Todd dalton knows what he’s talking about.
Wonder how closely the manufacturer controls the amount of lube they use. I see lube balls and bubbles here and there on the thicker stuff, there's no way to account for that separately from priming compound and powder charge.
Wow that sorted
Yes
I Love your concise to the point videos ie ( Always the best) 😃 That sorting and measuring rim thickness almost drove me to the psycho ward 🤯.
But it is essential if you want to be competitive and win matches.
I would consider letting a kid do the sorting to keep your sanity 👍🏻
I appreciate the comment and support
I actually enjoy sorting.
I used to shoot 3 position smallbore. My coach told me the only difference between grades of Eley is how fast the line runs during production. Cheaper ammo runs faster so less consistent. Except for the different bullet in the tenex it’s all basically the same. I’m sure it’s the same with Lapua and RWS, etc. With that in mind, sorting by weight would seem to be more productive with good ammo. There was one kid who spent the winter sorting cheap bulk ammo by rim thickness who had decent results. With quality ammo, weight just might be the way to go.
Agreed, the more consistent it comes off the machine the higher grade it gets and the more $$ they charge for it.
Weight is a tough one cause you have 4 different parts of the bullet that could be contributing to different weights; brass, priming compound, powder, and projectile
I weigh my amo with the exception of some Midas and find similar results to what you produced today. Plenty of people say its beyond the effort. Just depends weather the small amount of improvement is what your chasing.
I have been experimenting with measuring rim thickness and weighing lately. I measure the rims by dropping them in a 2" long 1/8" brass pipe, then throwing my caliper on. The difference minus the two inches is your rim thickness. I have messed with several cheap ammo's. Aguila competition match and Federal Auto match being a couple. I found that if I take the weights in the main group area for that batch, and throw out the extreme highs and lows, I can turn those ammos into respectable groups and have put as many as 4 through the same hole at 50. Fliers are pretty much eliminated. If I use the throw aways for sighters it looks like a shotgun blast and you can see where all the fliers are. SD on my Labradar on the sorted is 12 or less consistently with 10 shot groups. SD's on the sighters run anywhere from 40 to 100. Its quite a bit of work but I am gaining knowledge so I enjoy it.
The difference is 33% reduction, not trivial by any means! For comps, definitely worth the effort if you're trying to squeeze everything into a top finish.
Two things. I don't use the ultra expensive ammo for shooting and expect some flyers. They're usually very obvious. When you consider what reloaders go through to enjoy their shooting, this type of sorting is very little work and you'll have lots of ammo for fouling shots after you're done. Its a win win. After cleaning you want to foul the rifle using the same ammo. Well now you'll have ammo for that too. I"m going to try that with my cheaper ammo. Wouldn't be surprised that's how the manufacturers to it anyway. If I can start with a brick of ammo thats A$8 per hundred and end up with several boxes of ammo that shoot like the stuff that costs $15 per 50 it would be worth it to me. That's without taking into account the almost wasted fouling shots. Can't wait for part two.
Awesome Denis. I appreciate the comment
I do the rim first and weight second. Works out the same. I've been using Eley Match. Definitely helps with flyers
Do you see much variance in the eley match?
I have a case of it and its been very good in the gun so far but i do get a wild one every now and again
@@PursuitofAccuracy some. The half case I bought has for the most part been good. Not great even after sorting. Every once in a while you get a very strange flyer . I shoot Ara unlimited benchrest I'm shooting mostly bulls and then out of nowhere hit the 10 or outside of ring. Yes definitely worth sorting. Try doing rim thickness first. I use a rim thickness guage with a dial caliper. Really good ones. More accurate than the good digital I have.
Maybe you should try just weighting vs just measuring rim thickness? Keep up the informative vids, and good shooting. Jim
Thanks James
i'd like to see you shooting a bench rest target in 50 meters with a 25 targets for see what you can do ; other thing is bring another cz 457 mtr , shoots and compares by yours ; other thing is make a average in 5 targets but with 10 shoots , great videos my friend , i hope some day shoot like you , big respect .
Appreciate the comment and support
VERY INTERESTING, I'VE HEARD ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE WHEN THE AMMO IS WEIGHED AND RIM THICKNESS CHECK. SEEMS TO ME I DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE, BUT THEN AGAIN I'M NOT TO SURPRISED SINCE CONSISTENCY IS THE NAME OF THE GAME.🤔😁👍
Excellent test! Cutting group size by 1/3..... I'd call that definitive- Interesting thought; what other changes could be made, to result in that much improvement? (When you're already dealing with a quality gun/ammunition, of course)
Looking forward to watching the 100yd test next! Thanks!
Hey Robert. The 100 yard video is actually already out.
Outside of having good equipment just practicing is going to net the best gains
@@PursuitofAccuracy - Yeah, I watched it earlier.....not nearly as clear-cut. Great tests, either way. Thanks!
@@ls2005019227 yeah the sorting didnt seem to make much difference at 100 yards as 50
Would like to see you shoot the ammo that got removed from the sorting. Just to see how much worse it gets.
Man you need the hornady rim gauge I love mine!
Yeah doing it with just a micrometer is a pain
Hey Josh. Another very helpful video. Thanks. Been meaning to ask what is that rear bag rest you use?
Gamechanger pint size with heavy fill
@@PursuitofAccuracy Awesome, thanks Josh. I'll check that bag out. It looks solid. You got me into CZ's so i'll tell you I shot my new CZ457PV today: six, 5 shot groups at
@@DSmith-zf9es nice sounds like a shooter for sure
Sort to perfection
With all of the effort serious rimfire shooters go to matching their barrels headspace for the ammo they normally shoot have you ever looked to see what the variance may be in the shells overall length say in a couple of boxes both the same lot# and different lot #'s?
That could have just as much influence as weight or rim thickness.
Rather than putting forth the time and effort for every shell you fire perhaps doing enough to establish patterns with a brand and series of ammo would be more useful as to whether there was a point it made little difference to buy a higher grade or there was a drop off point where not to go below a certain grade within a brand of ammo.
Way over my needs for my uses but I like learning everything I can by following you guys where it does matter and your testing results.
An oal tool actually does exist
While you are testing you might want to ad Federal Premium Gold Medal Match to the list of things to try.
Good timing! My rim thickness guage and scale just arrived this morning. Measuring out CCI standard and pretty surprised at the variance…interested to see what a consistent round will do.
Im betting the less expensive the ammo the more sorting helps
@@PursuitofAccuracy I would also imagine so. I’m going to use my calipers and measure overall length of the bullet as well to see if there are any that are seated oddly, for the first few at least. I have a brick of SK standard plus I’m going to try as well.
Can I get an update on how this went?
@@sssss8700 Long answer made short: cheap ammo has more variance in weight and rim thickness, and shot EVER so slightly better once sorted. Not worth the time IMO. Sorting expensive ammo I couldn't see measurable results on paper.
Do the same test with SK match PLEASE!!!
Wipe the grease off too and don't rim gauge, LENGHT gauge the round from tip to bottom for the case. cheers
I do something similar with medium grade ammo. I will weigh 15 or 20 round together then divide by the number to get my average. I then keep ammo that is within .3 grs of the average. for instance if the average is 51.7 I will keep everything between 51.4 and 52.0 grs. I no longer worry about rim thickness. It just did not seem to make much difference. Sorting does not seem to help with cheap ammo. Winchester Wildcats are still Winchester Wildcats no matter what you do to them.
Haha thanks for the comment ccwilder. Honestly all of the center x i weighed was within .3 of each other except like 1 out of 50.
@@PursuitofAccuracy Yeah, as the quality of the ammo goes up, the variances go down. I have seen very little improvement sorting Tenex. I sorted some SK Magazine a couple of weeks ago using the above method and to get 150 good rounds I culled 26 rounds. I really enjoy your videos. You do the same kind of stuff I enjoy doing.
I weight sorted and sorted according to rim thickness and oal. The biggest gain I saw was in my rifle was rim thickness.
I've recently started trying something else and it helps sd's immensely.
Sorting makes all ammo better!
Definitive! Very nice. So does the sorting make the rounds equal Midas + or X-Act? That would be a good head to head test. Sorted vs Midas +.
Also a good idea. I really am not 100% sure what they check at the factory to determine grades of ammo but could very well be
@@PursuitofAccuracy that could be an interesting video.
Does sorted cx = midas
Does sorted midas = x act
🤔🤔
I rim sort then weigh. Doing centerX today. The match Eley has less variation in rim thinness but a little more weight variance. I use out of spec for warm up and sighters
Sounds like a good process
@@PursuitofAccuracy ...I just did 5 boxes of CenterX.3 boxes measured 41 rim thickness and 51.9 weight. A few .8 in too.
Almost 2 boxes were rim 42 and also 51.9 weight. The rest were out of spec I'll use for warm up and sighters.
Listed speed 1066, machine 1, lot702453
Try some ARA targets I got a 2500,a 2450 on Factory and a 2,000 on Unlimited Saturday.
Great video. What makes more difference? Weight sorting or rim thickness sorting?
Thats a tough one honestly
It's a shame you don't live around Birmingham, AL A friend of mine is the importer of Anschutz rifles and RWS ammo. He has a 100 yd indoor range. Your rifle is put in a fixture to test ammo. Takes the human factor out of groups.
Hey Joe. We actually just lot tested two vudoos for rws and ordered a few cases. They were buddies rifles but both shot it very well. Rws is good stuff.
@@PursuitofAccuracy which flavor of RWS? R50, R100 or Special Match?
@@joed3264 r50
Just the confidence it gives me is well worth the 4hrs it takes to sort a brick of 500. I found that it even helps with Eley Tenex & Match.
You sir, have way more patience than me haha
@@PursuitofAccuracy Hell I'm retired , I have nothing but time! Also I can put UA-cam on while weighing & measuring, MULTI TASKING!!!
Hi Josh
I just find your video on You Tube and really appreciate it !
I have a little question for you who make those black plastic transport ammo box that you have in this video who contain 2 rack of 50X Lapua center x rack what is the company or model
Thanks keep on your good work
Claude from Québec Canada 🇨🇦😎👍
I can't remember his name but if you go on snipers hide forums and look on the buy sell trade they offer them there.
@@PursuitofAccuracy Thanks Keep on your good work and have fun 😎👍
How are you sorting? Do you record weights for each round, then find the Standard Deviation of the masses, then eliminate all those that are outside of x Standard Deviations from mean? Then do the same method for rim thickness on the "good" weight rounds?
I am curious. Would your batch of cull rounds end up producing good groups with shifted POI? In other words if you tested your high weight-thick rim culls, they should themselves group pretty good, and the light-thin culls might group well too. They just likely wouldn't group in the same spot on the target.
I sort them by weight discarding any out of the norm. Then i measure rim thickness and do the same.
Most are actually fairly uniform.
In all honesty I gave up on sorting and just shoot them out of the box
Enjoy all your Videos Josh..What was the rim thickness and bullet weight you selected for this video?
Hey frank i was using 51.9 grains overall and rims measuring .044 on my calipers
@@PursuitofAccuracy
If you are liking .044 rim thickness does this change your head spacing formula?
@@ffrank7905 these tests were done on the mtr barrel and is a fixed headspace
Do you find lead bullets are more accurate than copper coated bullets?
@@ffrank7905 honestly never tried copper coated for accuracy. Almost all match ammo is uncoated lead
Now i'm curious to see how the Sorted Center-X stacks up against Unsorted X-act.
Yeah that would be interesting for sure
What do you torque your action screws too, and have you ever played around with these settings. Thanks.
I torque to 30 in lbs on that rifle. It does have some affect on accuracy but it wasnt overwhelming
I am not that dedicated. Interesting to see real world data that shows the difference it can make though.👍
I hear ya there 45!
Have you shot the Lapua Biathlon Extreme? If so, what’s you opinion? I have 4 boxes I’m going to be testing here soon in my CZ 457 MTR VPT
I have not yet but would love to test some
That rots, your shooting was great the Ammo should be a little better for what you pay for It. Isn't that why we buy lapua Ammo for its consistency
Appreciate it. You will want to see part 2, 100 yards, when it releases
Bullets or catridges??
It also gives you confidence that any flyers are you . I do it with SK long range
Your groups will never improve till you get yourself a decent rear bag. Noticed you hold stock with your left hand & also noted movement whilst shooting.
Get yourself a stable platform first & then try & shoot groups. You will see a marked improvement.
I regularly shoot 5 shot groups 50 yards up to .25. but shoot Eley Match ammo.
My best is .06 but average .11 to .20.
Sk why is it I am looking at a vudoo or center x
Maybe do it in reverse as well you may be practised by the second round.
What ammo container is that?
You really should be shooting the ammo "blind" , even "double blind" for truly statistically meaningful results, to eliminate any +possible+ bias on the shooter's side of the equation. Still, interesting, I wonder what Papua would say, given that they show tighter groups on their "out of the box" ammo? Cheers, keep well!
Rip the heavy one and the lightweight bullit apart and weigh every component separately the diverent weight of the gunpowder is the biggest not the shell or the head
Interesting to note that your rate of fire was slower with the sorted ammo
Didnt really notice but sometimes the speed at which i shoot is dictated by if the wind is changing or being constant.
I dont make any wind corrections for these tests but i will generally try to wait out a gust of wind or speed up to get the rounds off when the wind is not changing.
Thanks for the comment
Can you give the address of the store where you can buy the orange targets you shoot at?
I bought them on amazon. Search 1" paster targets on amazon and they should pop right up for ya
Should do it blind. Sort one batch, and don’t sort the other and get someone to hand you one batch without you knowing which is which. That would be a good test.
Got ya
So, what specifications were you sorting these projectiles?
By total weight, 51.9 grains and by rim thickness
I have had rims from the same lot of cheap ammo vary from .037 on the low end to .042 + on the high, I use a raveneye custom gauge available on the big online store and a 1/2" throw or .5" digital dial indicator with .0001 accuracy and a flat tip vs the point that come with the indicator, I bought a 22 piece UNF 4-48 threaded tip set and used the tip in the bottom left corner of the set. The indicator, raven eye custom rim thickness gauge and the 22 piece tip set was $60
I sort ammo thickness to .037-.038 as low or thin rims, .039's as medium, and anything .040+ as thick rims, usually the cheaper the ammo, the more it varies, I have never had center x, but higher end ammo usually has tighter specs per round
@@PursuitofAccuracy of course by weight, but what, three weights? Two weights? Three thicknesses? Two?
@@rossvanderpoel3907 i was sorting them to a tenth of a grain. So only 51.9 made the cut. Same with rim thickness so only measurements of .044 were what i used
That shows that the ammo is the cause of most of accuracy issues, providing all other variables are ruled out.
Maybe........wait for part 2
@@PursuitofAccuracy I'll watch it.
What happened to part 2? It’s gone or private
Schedule snafu on my part. Its up and public now
Where you get those ammo boxes?
I got them from a guy on snipershide who makes the inserts. The outer box was just bought on amazon.
Will be giving one away soon
Was that luji or match barrel that came with it.
That was the factory 20" mtr barrel
@@PursuitofAccuracy Kool same set up I'm shooting with for the 2 state tournament,s and area 2. And shooting center x. Thanks for vido and great imfo.
"measured the rim thickness with my micrometer" *shows video measuring with calipers*
Lol scrutinizing much?
@@PursuitofAccuracy I assure you my friend, I'm only doing it in pursuit of accuracy 😉
@@showboat1556 lol, all forgiven for the comment
I can’t find center x anywhere..
Matthew its been flying off the shelf.
Good video, good info, music sucks so i left.
Well alrighty then
Ain’t going to do it.
I dont blame ya
The Dillion scale is not up to the task you were asking it to do! +/- .1 grain is NOT good enough to sort those bullets!
I think its reasonable to what most people would have access to or be willing to spend. I think most would agree that sorting high end match ammo doesnt add up to much vs bulk or cheaper ammo
try Midas my gun loves them. 457 Varmit MTR stock.
WOW! As an old BR-50 competitor I must say, nothing about this test , the groups the rifle or, the shooter impress me!
Thanks......i guess......sort of.......haha. Sorry to let you down Don
Wow, for the Money, Lapua Center X out of the box sucks. That was 3 fliers in 20 rounds. I am not sure the sorting did anything.
Im not a huge center x guy but you the lots matter a lot
@@PursuitofAccuracy Agree 100% that lot testing can make a difference,
Sweet............... now stretch that puppy out !!
Waste of time