Gents this, as stated in the video, is not a definitive answer to why this happens. Its all just a theory. The bigger part of this is that it hopefully helps someone whos struggling with cold bore already. I encourage everyone to give it a shot and report back here. It has worked for me and several others but thats not a guarantee it would work for you, id be interested in hearing if it did or didnt help you here in the comments!
Theirs many factors that cause cold bore. Up till now, 2K+ rifles built. It's primarily due to tight spots in a barrel. Hence why I have an air gauge tool. Not sure about the moisture, but I see cold bore even here in Arizona. Great thing about this community is we can gather all data together and conclude a fix
Hey Kenny, been a fan for a long time . I’ve seen some of your vids where you demonstrate very little if any cold bore shifts so I know you got a great handle on how to “smith it out”. I’m not understanding how tight spots would change from the cold bore to subsequent shots . Thank you .
@Jeff-mv4yy moisture plays an effect. But in summary the lube solidifies between shots. Having a tight spot in a barrel creates a friction spot area in a barrel. While in consecutive shots, the lubricant on the ammo will help over come this friction coefficient, until the wax/lube solidifies again from a period of time. It would be the same as you firing a spit wad in a new straw, then cink it and see how much more force it takes to shoot one out.
@@EagleEyeShooting Moisture in the air and bore is good (less/no cold bore shift)... dry bore and air is bad (pronounced cold bore shift). Heat can also play a factor ie leaving a barrel in the shade vs in the sun
Hey Josh, I use Eley Match, SK Standard Plus, and CCI Standard Target. All ammo dose the cold bore shot in my rifles. Have seen that cleaning the bore lessens the effect of the cold bore shot. I am going to try blowing my breath down the bore using a short piece of small diameter clear vinyl tube that is available from most hardware stores. As it's not going to do any harm, and well worth a try.
Hello again Josh, I have been out to my gun range a couple of times since seeing you show us the straw technique. I use a 10 inch piece of 3 millimeter clear vinyl tube, and only put the tube in as far as the chamber. (3mm is the internal hole size) I blow 1 breath into the chamber and down the bore of my .22 SAKO P94S just before I start shooting, and it works. No more Cold Bore Flyer. The first shot prints on target at the point of aim, and the same for the rest of the shots for that string. So, I can agree that this technique dose help eliminate a Cold Bore Flyer
This may be the nugget of info I've been looking for to do better in the Rabbit Hole of 22 bench. Since I shoot a bimonthly bench match with ranges from 75-250, This will be a hard secret to keep if it works and besides I know a bunch of my friends that shoot it also are followers of your channel. Have a great New Years and keep the juice flowing.
I've read this theory in forums, but never saw this vid. A couple things I note - 1) for your straw, maybe cut the 'short' end a bit so it fits in the chamber area easily. That would let you be 5-6 inches farther away from the rifle - not look as 'intent'. 2) Can you test this effect with just 'dry air' like with a fan and hose? to eliminate the moisture for comparison. I haven't watched Part 2 yet so maybe these have been addressed ?
About 25 years ago the long range blackpowder cartridge rifle shooters in Canada found that a puff of breath through a rubber tube into the chamber after each shot improved accuracy. They were shooting duplex black over smokeless loads in 45/90s and 45/100s. In alternating shots there was just enough time to reflexively put that step in the firing point routine while the other shooter got off his shot.
Josh great videos, enjoy every single one, very informative and well done, thanks for your hard work. I tried the straw trick on my FX Impact M3 22 cal. for 3 days, it worked, cold bore shift disappeared. I'm adding a straw to my shooting tools from now on.
A while back I had a hunch that its not the temperature but the atmospheric conditions in the barrel that cause the first flyer, thanks for confirming my suspicions, people didn't believe me cause I worded it poorly.
Several years ago Bill Calfee wrote about moisture in the barrel and how it relates to cold bore. I'm pretty sure the article's in his book The Art of Rimfire Accuracy
I was always under the impression it was caused by a carbon ring. And once you fired that first shot, the carbon ring warmed up and kind of normalized. Learn something new every day!
Marginal gains moves us forward, excellent video. Maybe just use a 2nd chamber empty flag in the muzzle instead of the rubber glove, easy to see its there.
Odd, I would have thought pre warming a barrel with a fan might help eliminate a cold bore shot and using a fan between rounds, you basically proved exactly the opposite. Also, standing a rifle straight up on a rack lends to faster barrel cooling, so maybe keeping a barrel level and capping both ends as you have shown might prevent cold bore shift. Thanks for the video brother.
Wow. Great presentation, Bro. You look as good as anyone, blowing your barrel. Well, I can think of some ladies who would look better doing it. But this was very informative. We have never known, definitively, what causes cold bore shift. We now have a clearer picture.
Shane B at Lapua Ohio demonstrated cold bore shifts (and complete control thereof) with a very short down time (time to reload magazine). He combats it by keeping spent round in chamber and bolt closed while reloading mag for next lot test. This prevents the environmental filter vacuum positioned right above the action from sucking air through the bore and out the action. This leads me to believe that controlling the oxygen in the barrel as opposed to the moisture content may be the key. Much like suppressor first round pop. Obviously keeping the action closed with a spent case inside is not feasible at a match, but the H&S ECI's and something over the muzzle (cot, plug, masking tape, etc) is. I appreciate your efforts and look forward to the next round of testing. I also appreciate a pro like GS sharing his own research.
My only issue with that theory is if i leave action open for 30 mins Then blow through the barrel with the straw Then wait 5 mins with action open That would be more than enough time for that air to be displaced with fresh air but not long enough for that air to strip the moisture of that breath. If the MV then is normal i dont think the air would be the major contributor. Ive tested that before but will retest again. We may never truly know, outside of testing in a totally controlled environment its difficult to eliminate the variables
@@PursuitofAccuracy I agree. Lots of variables outdoors. Relative humidity, temp, and wind would all contribute to the environment inside the bore and how fast it changes. I’m skeptical how long a breath of moisture really lasts inside the bore; based purely on when I try to fog up my glasses to clean them…not long. Both of your demonstrated methods keep or return the bore to a moist, oxygen depleted state. Is it the moisture or lack of oxygen that eliminates the cold bore? Two variables. Gotta eliminate one to know for sure. Thanks Josh for the great content. Hope to see ya on the firing line again soon.
That’s exactly what I was thinking.. that the more oily type lubes are thinner and when cooled off won’t be as think in turn causing less back pressure 🤷🏻♂️ I’m excited to see the test results but it definitely makes sense that eley an others with thicker wax type when cooled will be thicker. Thanks for the info great content as always!!
Back in the day doing biathalon, never thought about the cap on the bore keeping this down. Just never had a problem with that rifle compared to my hunting rifle. Interesting, to be sure.
This reminded me that big naval guns have used compressed air to blow out the remaining gases after a shot...this probably allows them to get maximum, and stable, muzzle velocity...ive been thinking about a system to clear gases from the barrel of a rifle, between shots...it's tricky, but i think can be done mechanically, and with a, let's say, manual air source...of course, the whole thing ccould be done electrically, but maybe it's sub-optimal to need a battery. Imagine, not just no 'cold bore' issue, but overall more stable velocity, and accuracy. As someone more known than i would say: it's just a thought
Blowing into the bore to maintain consistency and accuracy is a common step with Blackpowder cartridge shooters. Next time, consider shooting at paper at 100yds to 200yds to see if the 'cold bore' shot also changes POI. Varying velocities alone doesn't indicate the that POI will also change ... at least enough to be a problem.
I wanted to show it on paper but ran out of cameras and the chrono was more important. In that rifle its certainly enough to see on paper. During the test it actually missed high on the 2" kyl at 100 on the first shot
In my cz457, just the time it took to reload a 10rd magazine would be long enough for the cold bore shift. The idea that it is moisture related was brilliant. I replaced the factory barrel with a Lilja barrel. Mainly because I wasn't happy with the overall grouping I was getting. I will have to keep an eye out for the cold bore shift on the first round. Great video!
@@Redacted-Information That might have something to do with it. Between the shakes and blind in one eye, and can't see out of the other, could have some effect!
One thing I was wondering with the straw is there is moisture in your breath. I was kind of surprised at the result. There might be another reason why this works and your summation might be wrong but the result works anyway.
Great video! I’ve seen the same thing when testing SK and Eley. About 30-40 fps cold bore. You can hear it down the line at a match too if you’re paying attention to other shooters. I’ve been noticing this for a while now. I’m going to try out these tips 👍🏻
thanks Josh, again great informative video, thank's for sharing the insight to cold bore, i've often wondered what makes this issue...my Ruger American in 22lr suffers from cold bore, second and subsequent shots are all clover leaf groupings on POA...quite annoying in hunting situations, i just make sure a fouling round is fired first soon before going hunting, where POI is so so important...
I usually just run a dry bore mop/swab down the bbl to clean things out. I do let the bbl cool some before the next group/chrono run. Works well for me but my firearms are nowhere near the league yours are in. Thanks for all your informative videos.
Josh I absolutely love these data gathering video's I call them. Though this one will cause me much grief. First off a good friend of mine told me 20 yeas ago put a foam ear plug in the end of the barrel when you are done shooting and I thought he was bat crap crazy. Dude do you mean to tell me I need to call this dude and tell him he was RIGHT? I think I would rather go on a 20mile hump with my 70pound alice pack in shorts in South Korea winter. The other thing that makes this video great outside of the nice new room yes I am still drooling over it is the fact of how ridiculous you looked blowing on that straw LOL. You surely deserve for this video to go viral super educational and FUNNY to watch.
Use electrical tape. A lot of hunters use black electrical tape over the muzzle to keep rain out of the barrel. When shooting, the gasses that escape around the bullet, blow the tape off before the bullet exits, so the bullet doesn't hit the tap when fired.
I'm so glad you posted this video because I've been peeing in my barrels for years and getting some really strange looks. If you think that blowing through a straw works, you should try peeing. More moisture, better results.👌
Great video! Man I’m glad there are nerds like you doing this stuff so nerds like me can learn from you! Seriously though, I think this nailed it, also brings to mind what Kenny from DPG has said about barrels that have high spots introducing friction requiring more lube/ moisture to overcome the cold bore shot. I suppose starting with the truest barrel possible can minimize if not eliminate cold bore velocity deviation, and of course shooting ammo with lowest standard deviation and extreme spread, ie ammo that is lot tested for your barrel greatly smooth things out. The Pursuit continues! Curious if you took any sniper courses in the Army?
Those little finger doohickies were on a few rifles at teh Worlds champs in Italy. I'm betting thats where Greg got started on this. I dismissed it as nonsense but good to hear it may have validity!
Gregg is the reason those barrels in Italy were sealed! He was the first guy in this sport to measure the phenomenon and see the benefit of plugging the barrel.
Josh, I appreciate the scientific approach that you employ to test your hypothesis. Your experimentation and resulting data are interesting, and perhaps compelling, but not necessarily conclusive. I'm not 100% convinced that the cold-bore velocity shift is 'caused' by 'moisture', because moisture was not measured. If moisture causes a decrease in velocity, then the removal of moisture in a warm (hydrated) bore should cause an increase in velocity similar to the cold-bore shot. This was not tested. Since there are several potential contributors to the observed shift in velocity, then a "Design Of Experiments" (DOE) is needed to isolate the predominate cause and characterize the resulting effect. Is it possible that the bullet lubrication is affected by temperature in a way that we do not understand? What about chamber temperature affecting case expansion/sealing? I'm looking forward to learning, along with you and your other devoted channel-watchers as you pursue this gremlin of accuracy. Thanks for all you do for our community.
Yeah unfortunately the variables are nearly endless. Ive tested this off camera for months between temp of barrel and other factors. The moisture theory seems to be the most consistent in results and predictability
But i agree more testing is required and nothing was proven in this video. Its all a theory at this point but a compelling one. We may never truly understand the reasons why but at least we have some interesting solutions in the mean time. Appreciate you watching and commenting
Josh, honestly, I called BS when I heard the intro. BUT, I almost believe that this is true and your solutions may work. I'll be trying these fixes soon on multiple rifles with multiple types of ammo and will definitely report back.
Ive had several of my discord members test this with eley in their rifles and they got the same results as me. Some ammo lubes are better for mitigating it as well as barrel types, you will see that in your own testing
Excellent bit of information. I’ll test it out here in Ireland 🇮🇪 Will you show what the cold bore is on paper as well. Would make more sense to see the group also 👌💪🇮🇪🍀
Yeah sure will, ran out of cameras lol. The thing is certain barrels even with a cold bore will print the same poi because of harmonics. So its just another variable
so its really a dry bore shift... i suspect the ammo manufacturers already know about this... internal combustion is known to produce moisture EG.contrails
it's theory but worth testing, this makes me wonder if lubed ammunition has less cold poi shift when compared to raw lead bullets, if you blow breathe down the chamber with a straw it should make a difference in velocity, i will test with a chronograph the difference between dry patch pass and breath fogging
Interesting. However it it may not be moisture but more likely there is more oxygen in the barrel for the cold bore shots aiding in more complete combustion of the propellant. Subsequent shots take place in an environment with less oxygen in the air inside the barrel. Blowing air into the barrel though a straw replicates this by displacing oxygen rich air with your CO2 rich breath. Similar to the first shot pop through a suppressor.
Yep, moisture, traces of cleaning solution. It's the law of physics - when metal is cooling - it's shrinking when heating - it is expanding. If it's shrinking - the force of resistance growing - the bullet loses more energy in the barrel. Ideally, it should be a thick barrel preheated to normal operational temperature and sealed. As soon as we get ideal ammo - we can start to worry about that. For now, the quality of relatively affordable ammo is the bottleneck.
Id be more apt to believe that if different bullet lube types and barrel types didnt affect it as well but they do. So that tells me if rifling type and or lubrication can impact the results that friction is the cause
Wonder if this is the same as first round pop with suppressors, where you have higher oxygen % in the barrel and suppressor, and that first round ignites it. But that is interesting and a simple fix.
No big mystery here. The bigger question is how does a cold bore affect accuracy? To me it has a negative effect and any rifle should be fired at least 5 times before shooting for accuracy. I guess the exception would be if you’re shooting in some kind of event that doesn’t allow warmup shots. In that case the moisture effect seems plausible.
It would be jnteresting to shoot the finger condom thing off the end of the barrel on the first shot and see if the round is significantly affected by going through it. You can tape up a muzzle brake on a centerfire completely and not affect the first round. See Jon Pynchs video.
Very interesting Thanks for sharing! So cold bore first shot give er a blow 30 rounds walk down then back at bench .Does it need another blow say 10 min.between.
Very interesting! Always learn something from your videos. I wonder if a can of air duster would do the same? Although, it wouldn’t look as cool as the straw.. lol
Back again, I watched Part 2 and saw you're doing the straw diff this time. Still curious if 'dry air' would make a diff, just removing 'low-oxy' fired gases as someone suggested in an earlier post. Just a thought. Gonna get some vinyl tubing and maybe try continuously breathing into the barrel, like when reloading mags. Will the addtl moisture make a diff ?? Gotta fire up the chony to see, but maybe after the weather breaks, so I won't break. -15* C this AM .
Ive ran a barrel cooler and the dry air caused the mv jump same as doing nothing but you could make it happen in like 30 seconds instead of 15 mins. Seems to speed up drying out the bore
If this small amount of water vapor can affect lubrication / speed of bullet, then I wonder how much the remaining smoke in the barrel could also change speed .
I wonder if that would work for my m96 , which is a 6.5x55 cartridge. It has a terrible cold bore shot, but after that it's just over .33 MOA. I'll have to try it. Thanks for the research.
Gents this, as stated in the video, is not a definitive answer to why this happens. Its all just a theory.
The bigger part of this is that it hopefully helps someone whos struggling with cold bore already.
I encourage everyone to give it a shot and report back here.
It has worked for me and several others but thats not a guarantee it would work for you, id be interested in hearing if it did or didnt help you here in the comments!
"Everybody has straws"
Literally illegal in Kanistan...
Oh 🇨🇦 🤦♂️
@@wilfdarr im sure they have some sort of tube that resembles a straw lol
@@PursuitofAccuracy Ya, I think I found a fuel line that'll work. Still dumb that straws are illegal...
Great video man that’s insane how easily that works
Theirs many factors that cause cold bore. Up till now, 2K+ rifles built. It's primarily due to tight spots in a barrel. Hence why I have an air gauge tool. Not sure about the moisture, but I see cold bore even here in Arizona.
Great thing about this community is we can gather all data together and conclude a fix
Hey Kenny, been a fan for a long time . I’ve seen some of your vids where you demonstrate very little if any cold bore shifts so I know you got a great handle on how to “smith it out”. I’m not understanding how tight spots would change from the cold bore to subsequent shots . Thank you .
@Jeff-mv4yy moisture plays an effect. But in summary the lube solidifies between shots. Having a tight spot in a barrel creates a friction spot area in a barrel. While in consecutive shots, the lubricant on the ammo will help over come this friction coefficient, until the wax/lube solidifies again from a period of time.
It would be the same as you firing a spit wad in a new straw, then cink it and see how much more force it takes to shoot one out.
@@EagleEyeShooting Moisture in the air and bore is good (less/no cold bore shift)... dry bore and air is bad (pronounced cold bore shift). Heat can also play a factor ie leaving a barrel in the shade vs in the sun
Thank you Kenny .
Now we need to see Kenny run this same test in the dry AZ air 🤷🏼♂️
Hey Josh, I use Eley Match, SK Standard Plus, and CCI Standard Target. All ammo dose the cold bore shot in my rifles. Have seen that cleaning the bore lessens the effect of the cold bore shot. I am going to try blowing my breath down the bore using a short piece of small diameter clear vinyl tube that is available from most hardware stores. As it's not going to do any harm, and well worth a try.
Hello again Josh, I have been out to my gun range a couple of times since seeing you show us the straw technique. I use a 10 inch piece of 3 millimeter clear vinyl tube, and only put the tube in as far as the chamber. (3mm is the internal hole size) I blow 1 breath into the chamber and down the bore of my .22 SAKO P94S just before I start shooting, and it works. No more Cold Bore Flyer. The first shot prints on target at the point of aim, and the same for the rest of the shots for that string. So, I can agree that this technique dose help eliminate a Cold Bore Flyer
Finally the condom i been carrying for years for when I get lucky got used. Thank you
Hahahaha
This may be the nugget of info I've been looking for to do better in the Rabbit Hole of 22 bench. Since I shoot a bimonthly bench match with ranges from 75-250, This will be a hard secret to keep if it works and besides I know a bunch of my friends that shoot it also are followers of your channel. Have a great New Years and keep the juice flowing.
I've read this theory in forums, but never saw this vid. A couple things I note - 1) for your straw, maybe cut the 'short' end a bit so it fits in the chamber area easily. That would let you be 5-6 inches farther away from the rifle - not look as 'intent'. 2) Can you test this effect with just 'dry air' like with a fan and hose? to eliminate the moisture for comparison.
I haven't watched Part 2 yet so maybe these have been addressed ?
About 25 years ago the long range blackpowder cartridge rifle shooters in Canada found that a puff of breath through a rubber tube into the chamber after each shot improved accuracy. They were shooting duplex black over smokeless loads in 45/90s and 45/100s. In alternating shots there was just enough time to reflexively put that step in the firing point routine while the other shooter got off his shot.
Josh great videos, enjoy every single one, very informative and well done, thanks for your hard work.
I tried the straw trick on my FX Impact M3 22 cal. for 3 days, it worked, cold bore shift disappeared.
I'm adding a straw to my shooting tools from now on.
Dude this is the most important video I’ve watched this year!!! Wow - thanks so much brother 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
A while back I had a hunch that its not the temperature but the atmospheric conditions in the barrel that cause the first flyer, thanks for confirming my suspicions, people didn't believe me cause I worded it poorly.
Very interesting video. I have to admit I always thought it was a temperature thing.
Me too
Wow, that’s an awesome find! Glad to know what actually causes that cold bore shot difference.
Several years ago Bill Calfee wrote about moisture in the barrel and how it relates to cold bore. I'm pretty sure the article's in his book The Art of Rimfire Accuracy
Been meaning to read that, just never have the time
Very interesting Josh, seems like your on to it. I never would have thought this was the cause . The results don’t lie. Thanks mate
Thanks Mark
I have a cold bore shift on my .243 wonder if this would work on that ? Very interesting well done 👍
I was always under the impression it was caused by a carbon ring. And once you fired that first shot, the carbon ring warmed up and kind of normalized. Learn something new every day!
Love me some scientific method! Thanks for moving the knowledge limit forward on this issue.
Thx for the information. got supersonic bang on every first shot and never knew why. Greetings from germany
Very interesting. I'll try the "blowing trick" visiting next time the range. Thanks for the video.
Who'da thunk it! Excellent info Josh! Appreciate you!👍
Marginal gains moves us forward, excellent video. Maybe just use a 2nd chamber empty flag in the muzzle instead of the rubber glove, easy to see its there.
Odd, I would have thought pre warming a barrel with a fan might help eliminate a cold bore shot and using a fan between rounds, you basically proved exactly the opposite. Also, standing a rifle straight up on a rack lends to faster barrel cooling, so maybe keeping a barrel level and capping both ends as you have shown might prevent cold bore shift. Thanks for the video brother.
Wow. Great presentation, Bro. You look as good as anyone, blowing your barrel. Well, I can think of some ladies who would look better doing it. But this was very informative. We have never known, definitively, what causes cold bore shift. We now have a clearer picture.
Honestly i could be totally wrong about why it happens, but its good info going forward in search
Great idea from the guy that told you this. I’ll try it for myself and see.
Go to a black powder cartridge match, you blow thru after firing a round for the moisture, fouling.
Cool that it works on rimfire
Shane B at Lapua Ohio demonstrated cold bore shifts (and complete control thereof) with a very short down time (time to reload magazine). He combats it by keeping spent round in chamber and bolt closed while reloading mag for next lot test. This prevents the environmental filter vacuum positioned right above the action from sucking air through the bore and out the action. This leads me to believe that controlling the oxygen in the barrel as opposed to the moisture content may be the key. Much like suppressor first round pop. Obviously keeping the action closed with a spent case inside is not feasible at a match, but the H&S ECI's and something over the muzzle (cot, plug, masking tape, etc) is. I appreciate your efforts and look forward to the next round of testing. I also appreciate a pro like GS sharing his own research.
My only issue with that theory is if i leave action open for 30 mins
Then blow through the barrel with the straw
Then wait 5 mins with action open
That would be more than enough time for that air to be displaced with fresh air but not long enough for that air to strip the moisture of that breath.
If the MV then is normal i dont think the air would be the major contributor. Ive tested that before but will retest again.
We may never truly know, outside of testing in a totally controlled environment its difficult to eliminate the variables
@@PursuitofAccuracy I agree. Lots of variables outdoors. Relative humidity, temp, and wind would all contribute to the environment inside the bore and how fast it changes. I’m skeptical how long a breath of moisture really lasts inside the bore; based purely on when I try to fog up my glasses to clean them…not long. Both of your demonstrated methods keep or return the bore to a moist, oxygen depleted state. Is it the moisture or lack of oxygen that eliminates the cold bore? Two variables. Gotta eliminate one to know for sure. Thanks Josh for the great content. Hope to see ya on the firing line again soon.
@@Chopping_Broccoli yeah im thinking for test two maybe i can use a spray bottle to wet the bore and see if it also works
@@Chopping_Broccoli yes sir, appreciate ya
I hope you get it figured out man. Glad my rifles are well tuned and they don't exhibit this.
Its largely gonna depend on what barrels you have and what ammo your running
That’s exactly what I was thinking.. that the more oily type lubes are thinner and when cooled off won’t be as think in turn causing less back pressure 🤷🏻♂️ I’m excited to see the test results but it definitely makes sense that eley an others with thicker wax type when cooled will be thicker. Thanks for the info great content as always!!
Great video. Would have liked to see the accuracy added. Thanks for informative videos.
I HATE THAT FIRST SHOT ..I will 100% be giving this a try !!.I have a couple 10/22's I built ..I love all your videos !!.. thank you !!!...
Thanks brother!
Back in the day doing biathalon, never thought about the cap on the bore keeping this down. Just never had a problem with that rifle compared to my hunting rifle.
Interesting, to be sure.
This reminded me that big naval guns have used compressed air to blow out the remaining gases after a shot...this probably allows them to get maximum, and stable, muzzle velocity...ive been thinking about a system to clear gases from the barrel of a rifle, between shots...it's tricky, but i think can be done mechanically, and with a, let's say, manual air source...of course, the whole thing ccould be done electrically, but maybe it's sub-optimal to need a battery.
Imagine, not just no 'cold bore' issue, but overall more stable velocity, and accuracy.
As someone more known than i would say: it's just a thought
Super interesting. Time to pull out the chrono and do some testing on my end!
Awesome Video KYL Killa!! I have witnessed this work very well.
That is really cool!! I’m looking forward to seeing the future tests! Great work,
Blowing into the bore to maintain consistency and accuracy is a common step with Blackpowder cartridge shooters. Next time, consider shooting at paper at 100yds to 200yds to see if the 'cold bore' shot also changes POI. Varying velocities alone doesn't indicate the that POI will also change ... at least enough to be a problem.
I wanted to show it on paper but ran out of cameras and the chrono was more important. In that rifle its certainly enough to see on paper.
During the test it actually missed high on the 2" kyl at 100 on the first shot
In my cz457, just the time it took to reload a 10rd magazine would be long enough for the cold bore shift. The idea that it is moisture related was brilliant.
I replaced the factory barrel with a Lilja barrel. Mainly because I wasn't happy with the overall grouping I was getting. I will have to keep an eye out for the cold bore shift on the first round. Great video!
Or maybe its just you?
@@Redacted-Information That might have something to do with it. Between the shakes and blind in one eye, and can't see out of the other, could have some effect!
Amazing, mystery solved i think! cant wait for the follow up video. cheers...
Very cool video. Good to know.
One thing I was wondering with the straw is there is moisture in your breath. I was kind of surprised at the result. There might be another reason why this works and your summation might be wrong but the result works anyway.
Thanks Josh I will try to keep that info in my old mind at my next match.
Great video! I’ve seen the same thing when testing SK and Eley. About 30-40 fps cold bore. You can hear it down the line at a match too if you’re paying attention to other shooters. I’ve been noticing this for a while now. I’m going to try out these tips 👍🏻
Excellent video! Great theory and supporting evidence. I'm going to research and work on this. I'll let you know if I come with anything.
Thanks, part two coming out today
Great video. I learn something every time I watch your videos. Keep it up!!
thanks Josh, again great informative video, thank's for sharing the insight to cold bore, i've often wondered what makes this issue...my Ruger American in 22lr suffers from cold bore, second and subsequent shots are all clover leaf groupings on POA...quite annoying in hunting situations, i just make sure a fouling round is fired first soon before going hunting, where POI is so so important...
Great info. I’ll be checking this out the next time at the range.
Josh that’s awesome man super cool you shared this now I have to try it out. Thanks and another great video.
Thanks brother, appreciate ya!
this is great info. my factory cz457 has a heck of a cold bore shift using eley ammo. will have to try this hack at the next match.
I usually just run a dry bore mop/swab down the bbl to clean things out. I do let the bbl cool some before the next group/chrono run. Works well for me but my firearms are nowhere near the league yours are in. Thanks for all your informative videos.
And this video is exactly why I follow you! Very cool!
Thanks brother
Interesting. I'm also curious to see the effect on accuracy if the finger cot is left on the barrel by accident.
Greg shoots through his every stage lol. So id say no real effect
Josh I absolutely love these data gathering video's I call them. Though this one will cause me much grief. First off a good friend of mine told me 20 yeas ago put a foam ear plug in the end of the barrel when you are done shooting and I thought he was bat crap crazy. Dude do you mean to tell me I need to call this dude and tell him he was RIGHT? I think I would rather go on a 20mile hump with my 70pound alice pack in shorts in South Korea winter. The other thing that makes this video great outside of the nice new room yes I am still drooling over it is the fact of how ridiculous you looked blowing on that straw LOL. You surely deserve for this video to go viral super educational and FUNNY to watch.
Haha appreciate ya brother
I really enjoy your videos. I have learned a lot. Thanks
Use electrical tape. A lot of hunters use black electrical tape over the muzzle to keep rain out of the barrel. When shooting, the gasses that escape around the bullet, blow the tape off before the bullet exits, so the bullet doesn't hit the tap when fired.
Yeah good idea
I'm so glad you posted this video because I've been peeing in my barrels for years and getting some really strange looks. If you think that blowing through a straw works, you should try peeing. More moisture, better results.👌
Great video! Man I’m glad there are nerds like you doing this stuff so nerds like me can learn from you! Seriously though, I think this nailed it, also brings to mind what Kenny from DPG has said about barrels that have high spots introducing friction requiring more lube/ moisture to overcome the cold bore shot. I suppose starting with the truest barrel possible can minimize if not eliminate cold bore velocity deviation, and of course shooting ammo with lowest standard deviation and extreme spread, ie ammo that is lot tested for your barrel greatly smooth things out. The Pursuit continues! Curious if you took any sniper courses in the Army?
Lots of factors and unknowns for sure.
I never really did any shooting stuff in the military besides the typical rifle qual
Those little finger doohickies were on a few rifles at teh Worlds champs in Italy. I'm betting thats where Greg got started on this. I dismissed it as nonsense but good to hear it may have validity!
Gregg is the reason those barrels in Italy were sealed!
He was the first guy in this sport to measure the phenomenon and see the benefit of plugging the barrel.
My CZ457 MTR definitely has cold bore…. About 2” high and little left at 100yds. I will test with a longer piece of 1/4” vinyl tubing and report back.
Exhaling into the barrel with a cold rifle (50 degrees) resulted in very accurate first shot, which is not typical for this rifle…..so it does work.
Very informative and interesting video, thanks for sharing!
Thanks
Josh, I appreciate the scientific approach that you employ to test your hypothesis. Your experimentation and resulting data are interesting, and perhaps compelling, but not necessarily conclusive. I'm not 100% convinced that the cold-bore velocity shift is 'caused' by 'moisture', because moisture was not measured. If moisture causes a decrease in velocity, then the removal of moisture in a warm (hydrated) bore should cause an increase in velocity similar to the cold-bore shot. This was not tested. Since there are several potential contributors to the observed shift in velocity, then a "Design Of Experiments" (DOE) is needed to isolate the predominate cause and characterize the resulting effect. Is it possible that the bullet lubrication is affected by temperature in a way that we do not understand? What about chamber temperature affecting case expansion/sealing? I'm looking forward to learning, along with you and your other devoted channel-watchers as you pursue this gremlin of accuracy.
Thanks for all you do for our community.
Yeah unfortunately the variables are nearly endless. Ive tested this off camera for months between temp of barrel and other factors.
The moisture theory seems to be the most consistent in results and predictability
But i agree more testing is required and nothing was proven in this video.
Its all a theory at this point but a compelling one.
We may never truly understand the reasons why but at least we have some interesting solutions in the mean time.
Appreciate you watching and commenting
Josh, honestly, I called BS when I heard the intro. BUT, I almost believe that this is true and your solutions may work. I'll be trying these fixes soon on multiple rifles with multiple types of ammo and will definitely report back.
Ive had several of my discord members test this with eley in their rifles and they got the same results as me.
Some ammo lubes are better for mitigating it as well as barrel types, you will see that in your own testing
Love the video man, great work!
This is awesome! Thank you for sharing.
Excellent bit of information. I’ll test it out here in Ireland 🇮🇪
Will you show what the cold bore is on paper as well. Would make more sense to see the group also 👌💪🇮🇪🍀
Yeah sure will, ran out of cameras lol.
The thing is certain barrels even with a cold bore will print the same poi because of harmonics.
So its just another variable
Good to see you here, at least you won't be laughing when you see me with a straw!
Thanks Josh and super easy solution
Another great vid. Happy New Year mate.
so its really a dry bore shift... i suspect the ammo manufacturers already know about this... internal combustion is known to produce moisture EG.contrails
Great video josh. Have always wondered about this. I would like to see if the finger glove method works overnight.
Didn’t look bad but you got to do what you need to do to make it work.
That was pretty cool. Good info
it's theory but worth testing, this makes me wonder if lubed ammunition has less cold poi shift when compared to raw lead bullets, if you blow breathe down the chamber with a straw it should make a difference in velocity, i will test with a chronograph the difference between dry patch pass and breath fogging
Who'd a thunk it? Great video.
Interesting. However it it may not be moisture but more likely there is more oxygen in the barrel for the cold bore shots aiding in more complete combustion of the propellant. Subsequent shots take place in an environment with less oxygen in the air inside the barrel. Blowing air into the barrel though a straw replicates this by displacing oxygen rich air with your CO2 rich breath. Similar to the first shot pop through a suppressor.
Possibly but i would think the displacement of air would happen pretty quickly where as the cold bore takes time to be recreated.
Yep, moisture, traces of cleaning solution. It's the law of physics - when metal is cooling - it's shrinking when heating - it is expanding. If it's shrinking - the force of resistance growing - the bullet loses more energy in the barrel. Ideally, it should be a thick barrel preheated to normal operational temperature and sealed. As soon as we get ideal ammo - we can start to worry about that. For now, the quality of relatively affordable ammo is the bottleneck.
I think it's something to do with oxygen levels that are maintained after a while. The oxygen adds to combustion and first round gets hot.
Id be more apt to believe that if different bullet lube types and barrel types didnt affect it as well but they do.
So that tells me if rifling type and or lubrication can impact the results that friction is the cause
This is pretty interesting gonna have to test this
Wonder if this is the same as first round pop with suppressors, where you have higher oxygen % in the barrel and suppressor, and that first round ignites it. But that is interesting and a simple fix.
No big mystery here.
The bigger question is how does a cold bore affect accuracy? To me it has a negative effect and any rifle should be fired at least 5 times before shooting for accuracy. I guess the exception would be if you’re shooting in some kind of event that doesn’t allow warmup shots. In that case the moisture effect seems plausible.
It would be jnteresting to shoot the finger condom thing off the end of the barrel on the first shot and see if the round is significantly affected by going through it. You can tape up a muzzle brake on a centerfire completely and not affect the first round. See Jon Pynchs video.
Greg shoots through his
Happy New Year Birthday To Me, Pursuit of Accuracy.
Happy birthday
Wow, great video, thanks for info.👍
Excellent video
Thank you 😊
Can't believe this this is great.. do you think running a dry patch through the barrel
A dry patch would likely induce a cold bore as it would remove any moisture in the barrel.
Very interesting Thanks for sharing! So cold bore first shot give er a blow 30 rounds walk down then back at bench .Does it need another blow say 10 min.between.
Very interesting good information.
Interesting. Thanks for the info
Very interesting! Always learn something from your videos. I wonder if a can of air duster would do the same? Although, it wouldn’t look as cool as the straw.. lol
I was breathing in it to add moisture so canned air would be a different result i assume
That would be a good test also. If the canned air didn't work, then it reinforces the moisture theory.
Thanks, great video!
Thanks for sharing
That's awesome! And super easy
Thanks brother
@@PursuitofAccuracy I enjoy ur videos. Maybe one day I'll pick up a vudoo
@@Lowballinoutdoorz its a great gun but still could go either way between it and the cz
Way cool, Josh. Another great video. I wonder if you could just exhale on the first round or potentially use a damp rag on the projectile?
I think it needs it throughout the barrel but worth testing
Back again, I watched Part 2 and saw you're doing the straw diff this time. Still curious if 'dry air' would make a diff, just removing 'low-oxy' fired gases as someone suggested in an earlier post. Just a thought.
Gonna get some vinyl tubing and maybe try continuously breathing into the barrel, like when reloading mags. Will the addtl moisture make a diff ?? Gotta fire up the chony to see, but maybe after the weather breaks, so I won't break. -15* C this AM .
Ive ran a barrel cooler and the dry air caused the mv jump same as doing nothing but you could make it happen in like 30 seconds instead of 15 mins.
Seems to speed up drying out the bore
If this small amount of water vapor can affect lubrication / speed of bullet, then I wonder how much the remaining smoke in the barrel could also change speed .
Fascinating stuff 🤔👍
WOW IMPRESSIVE..... THING THAT MAKE U GO HHMMM. BARREL TAMPONS ON THE SHELF SOON..... 2 FOR 100 BUCKS🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣.... GR8 VIDEO AS USUAL THNX
What !?? I'm sure gona try this
I wonder if that would work for my m96 , which is a 6.5x55 cartridge. It has a terrible cold bore shot, but after that it's just over .33 MOA. I'll have to try it. Thanks for the research.
And great informative video !!!👍