An outstanding engineering presentation that provides the technical facts that one needs to know if you are into 22lr shooting. Your latest report on the CZ 457 LW chamber machining problem is spot on. I called Neal and had the die set in a week. It does exactly what is explained in the presentation. With a little sorting to find the out of spec rounds followed by some touch up die profiling. I found that improvements in SD, ES & FPS provide more consistency in group size an POI. The flyer are almost gone. Great job I really like your channel its refreshing to see technical data instead of the loud hyped up sales reviews. If you don't see the chronograph and the environmental the review is useless. Keep up the good work.
Hi Charles… Thanks for the feedback! Welcome to the world of high performance 22. Before jumping into any re-profiling consider baselining the commercial offerings. You might find off-the-shelf cartridges will meet your needs. Unfortunately, precision 22 offerings are limited from U.S. manufacturers but consider looking at Eley, Lapua, SK (a Lapua company) and RWS to start. Good luck to you.
Thank you for this video. As an engineer, I appreciate all the effort done for the testing and making the video. I have found similar improvements with the SK standard plus by sorting using the weight to 0.01 gram. I found the low weight ammo had the largest group on my 50 yard outdoor range. The range has a KNL target on it. I get similar results with KNL as your simulation. Sorting by weight works for me.
Great video Don, it answered a lot of questions I had but created more I think. I’m a reloader, retired with time on my hands and would like to work on improving accuracy of common 40gr such as CCI Standard Velocity using three methods, rim thickness, overall weight and the Neil Waltz Die. I would like to make a $.06 per round bullet shoot more like the $.25 per round if possible. I shoot the KRL targets using CCI and GECO and do ok but it would be interesting to see if there could be improvements. This is probably another excuse to hang out at my reloading bench. One reason stands out for me, the swaging of a projectile to get an exact dimension and roundness. I really enjoyed your video and I appreciate all the time and energy you put into it. Thank you, Luther
Hi Luther… Your first comment did come through so but let me reply here. I applaud your noble effort and here's a little guidance based on our experience. We have some experience with CCI standard velocity, which in our guns ends up being subsonic which is a good thing for a lot of different 22 LR target shooting. Sorting off the rim thickness should probably be the first priority. You'll be amazed at what you see. Sometimes all the rims will be +/- a thousandth, another time, even from the same supplier, you end up with a bell curve ranging over 0.030 to 0.045 ;-) A typical 22 LR weighs about 50 grains of which 75% of it is the bullet. But most of these are swaged so the standard deviation on weight isn't very much and you'll need a good milligram balance to see a distribution. The Neal Waltz die should give you good uniformity to help minimize/eliminate out-of-round but most of the gains we see for making flat points/Tenex tips are statistical. This meeting you'll see small improvements over a large number of shots versus something dramatic in a single five shot group. Also, if possible use a gun with a match chamber. This can make a big difference as tolerances are tightened but, importantly, the cannelures or drive portion of the bullet scribes into the rifling and can bring multiple benefits. Hope this helps, Don
@@PounderLabs Your help was outstanding. I did buy the Bergara B14r which I can tell already is the best improvement so far. I did the weights on a brick of Geco Match which I think is comparable to the standard Geco 40gr. The weights ranged from 3.415 to 3.450 with most in the middle at 3.425-3.430. I do think the rim thickness will yield better results. The Hornady rim thickness gauge came a few days ago, should be doing some sorting this weekend. Also, the scales I’m using are a good guess at best. Thank you very much. Luther
Great video Don, you answered a lot of questions I had been researching but added more with your video. I’m a reloader and I come from an engineering background, also retired with plenty of time on my hands. I saw where you started with the higher grade ammo and made improvements but I would like to try the same thing with common 40gr ammo such as CCI Standard Velocity by sorting with rim thickness, overall weight and a Neil Waltz Die. I have the KRL targets and do ok using off the shelf budget ammo but I’m curious if it can be improved with these methods. I think the swage and concentric improvement using the Die itself would have to help. Thank you for all your time and energy for this video. This could be a second comment, not sure my first one came through. Luther
Norm.... I didn't do any concentricity testing. The profiling is done in a die which contacts the drive bands and there wasn't squishing of the nose of the bullet to get near these drive bands.
I wish I had found this video when it was made. Perhaps you would like my videos on reloading 22lr and my swaging process of making 22lr. Also, the hardness can softer when using powder coating. I swage AFTER powder coating. This make a far superior bullet.
Hans... Thanks for your comment. I did check out your video and looks like you doing some nice work. What I glean from your work is you're trying to make a superior long-range 22 LR. With the current offerings from the Lapua/SK/Eley that's gonna to be a tall order and I wish you the best. Check out the offerings of the reloading kit for 22 LR from Cutting Edge Bullets. They have a table of load data they did with different powders, which based on my work, is going to be the biggest challenge. Also, I did a video on 22 LR relative burn rates which you might find useful. ...Don
Here’s the last contact information I had for Neal: Email: waltz@sssnet.com Neal B. Waltz 4105 Hyatt N.W. Massillon, OH, 44646, USA 330-837-4818 I reached out to him before I posted the video last year and didn’t hear back, and because of your inquiry, I reached out earlier this week as well but haven’t heard back yet. The last posting I saw was he delivered a die in early 2019 so they may still be available. If you’re successful contacting Neal and purchase a die please post an update.
Hi Keinok... Thank you for your viewership and your subscription. Please check your viewer/player for volume adjustment. This video's been out for more than a year and has 14,000 views and this is the first time volume level has come up. Thanks, Don
An outstanding engineering presentation that provides the technical facts that one needs to know if you are into 22lr shooting. Your latest report on the CZ 457 LW chamber machining problem is spot on. I called Neal and had the die set in a week. It does exactly what is explained in the presentation. With a little sorting to find the out of spec rounds followed by some touch up die profiling. I found that improvements in SD, ES & FPS provide more consistency in group size an POI. The flyer are almost gone. Great job I really like your channel its refreshing to see technical data instead of the loud hyped up sales reviews. If you don't see the chronograph and the environmental the review is useless. Keep up the good work.
Thanks for posting this video...I am a 45 year handloader but just now getting into accurate .22lr rifle and acurizing the ammo we have available.
Hi Charles… Thanks for the feedback! Welcome to the world of high performance 22. Before jumping into any re-profiling consider baselining the commercial offerings. You might find off-the-shelf cartridges will meet your needs. Unfortunately, precision 22 offerings are limited from U.S. manufacturers but consider looking at Eley, Lapua, SK (a Lapua company) and RWS to start. Good luck to you.
Thank you for this video. As an engineer, I appreciate all the effort done for the testing and making the video. I have found similar improvements with the SK standard plus by sorting using the weight to 0.01 gram. I found the low weight ammo had the largest group on my 50 yard outdoor range. The range has a KNL target on it. I get similar results with KNL as your simulation. Sorting by weight works for me.
Excellent info, excellent presentation and thank you for sharing your time, knowledge and interest with us! Again, very, very well done!
Hi Michael… Thanks for your viewership and kind comments!
Thank you, Sir, for the excellent video. I'll be watching this a few more times.
Great video Don, it answered a lot of questions I had but created more I think. I’m a reloader, retired with time on my hands and would like to work on improving accuracy of common 40gr such as CCI Standard Velocity using three methods, rim thickness, overall weight and the Neil Waltz Die. I would like to make a $.06 per round bullet shoot more like the $.25 per round if possible. I shoot the KRL targets using CCI and GECO and do ok but it would be interesting to see if there could be improvements. This is probably another excuse to hang out at my reloading bench. One reason stands out for me, the swaging of a projectile to get an exact dimension and roundness. I really enjoyed your video and I appreciate all the time and energy you put into it. Thank you,
Luther
Hi Luther… Your first comment did come through so but let me reply here. I applaud your noble effort and here's a little guidance based on our experience. We have some experience with CCI standard velocity, which in our guns ends up being subsonic which is a good thing for a lot of different 22 LR target shooting.
Sorting off the rim thickness should probably be the first priority. You'll be amazed at what you see. Sometimes all the rims will be +/- a thousandth, another time, even from the same supplier, you end up with a bell curve ranging over 0.030 to 0.045 ;-)
A typical 22 LR weighs about 50 grains of which 75% of it is the bullet. But most of these are swaged so the standard deviation on weight isn't very much and you'll need a good milligram balance to see a distribution.
The Neal Waltz die should give you good uniformity to help minimize/eliminate out-of-round but most of the gains we see for making flat points/Tenex tips are statistical. This meeting you'll see small improvements over a large number of shots versus something dramatic in a single five shot group. Also, if possible use a gun with a match chamber. This can make a big difference as tolerances are tightened but, importantly, the cannelures or drive portion of the bullet scribes into the rifling and can bring multiple benefits. Hope this helps, Don
@@PounderLabs Your help was outstanding. I did buy the Bergara B14r which I can tell already is the best improvement so far. I did the weights on a brick of Geco Match which I think is comparable to the standard Geco 40gr. The weights ranged from 3.415 to 3.450 with most in the middle at 3.425-3.430. I do think the rim thickness will yield better results. The Hornady rim thickness gauge came a few days ago, should be doing some sorting this weekend. Also, the scales I’m using are a good guess at best. Thank you very much.
Luther
Terrific information and a well executed video mate, well done and thank you for the information!
Dan, thanks for viewing and feedback!
Love your presentation
Great video Don, you answered a lot of questions I had been researching but added more with your video. I’m a reloader and I come from an engineering background, also retired with plenty of time on my hands. I saw where you started with the higher grade ammo and made improvements but I would like to try the same thing with common 40gr ammo such as CCI Standard Velocity by sorting with rim thickness, overall weight and a Neil Waltz Die. I have the KRL targets and do ok using off the shelf budget ammo but I’m curious if it can be improved with these methods. I think the swage and concentric improvement using the Die itself would have to help. Thank you for all your time and energy for this video. This could be a second comment, not sure my first one came through.
Luther
Hi Luther… Thanks for your viewership, support and kind comments let me comment below… Don
It looks like a weight forward, long wad cutter works. Did I miss a test of pressing to assure concentricity without nose contact?
Norm.... I didn't do any concentricity testing. The profiling is done in a die which contacts the drive bands and there wasn't squishing of the nose of the bullet to get near these drive bands.
I wish I had found this video when it was made. Perhaps you would like my videos on reloading 22lr and my swaging process of making 22lr. Also, the hardness can softer when using powder coating. I swage AFTER powder coating. This make a far superior bullet.
Hans... Thanks for your comment. I did check out your video and looks like you doing some nice work.
What I glean from your work is you're trying to make a superior long-range 22 LR. With the current offerings from the Lapua/SK/Eley that's gonna to be a tall order and I wish you the best.
Check out the offerings of the reloading kit for 22 LR from Cutting Edge Bullets. They have a table of load data they did with different powders, which based on my work, is going to be the biggest challenge. Also, I did a video on 22 LR relative burn rates which you might find useful.
...Don
Do you stille use these
If not van i buy Them from you
Hi, great video. So can you still buy the dies still! cheers mate
Yes
Here’s the last contact information I had for Neal:
Email: waltz@sssnet.com
Neal B. Waltz
4105 Hyatt N.W. Massillon, OH, 44646, USA
330-837-4818
I reached out to him before I posted the video last year and didn’t hear back, and because of your inquiry, I reached out earlier this week as well but haven’t heard back yet. The last posting I saw was he delivered a die in early 2019 so they may still be available.
If you’re successful contacting Neal and purchase a die please post an update.
1-27-2020 UPDATE…. We just heard from Neal and he still supplying the 22 Rimfire Reprofiling Dies. Please reach out to him for price and availability.
@@PounderLabs love mine. Getting lots of use
Hi, thanks mate i have called him, he was just out of hospital but told me to cal back in a couple of weeks time! cheers
My 22lr bullets: ua-cam.com/video/IeF2asd3vx8/v-deo.html
Volume is too low.
Hi Keinok... Thank you for your viewership and your subscription. Please check your viewer/player for volume adjustment. This video's been out for more than a year and has 14,000 views and this is the first time volume level has come up. Thanks,
Don
You mean "meplat" can affect bullet trajectory? No kidding.... I though that was known LR ballistics knowledge