Destiny vs Norman Finkelstein heated debate on Gaza | Lex Fridman Podcast
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- Опубліковано 14 бер 2024
- Lex Fridman Podcast full episode: • Israel-Palestine Debat...
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GUEST BIO:
Norman Finkelstein and Benny Morris are historians. Mouin Rabbani is a Middle East analyst. Steven Bonnell (aka Destiny) is a political livestreamer.
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Guest bio: Norman Finkelstein and Benny Morris are historians. Mouin Rabbani is a Middle East analyst. Steven Bonnell (aka Destiny) is a political livestreamer.
Destiny loves to talk about how others shouldnt have a platform when the same could be said about him. By playing games online masquerading himself as a righty to spread misinformation. His stance goes directly against orthodox jews and he knows it.
Lex, you're a massive anti-intellectual clown. Taleb was right about you.
This sounds like every new york deli
😆
I didnt hear "word to my mother" or " deadass" once thoo
@@brknsh6689 He's not talking about the ghetto blacks
Not really. A Yemeni clerk/moderator is needed for authentic NY deli experience.
@@MrMAXZ888 Don't forget the Dominicans and Puerto Ricans
Mr. Brocconlini please never speak to me or my son again
hahahaha
Dr. Frankenstein needed to give that a rest
The Israelites have the same empathy for the Palestinians as the Nazis had for the Jews. History upside down!
@@BbeMamGaga Then it makes sense that there are 2 million Palestinians living in Israel today. Israel has a 1.31 ratio of civilian to militant death. Better than any country in WWII better than all of the US's wars ever. Which are considered the most humane.
@@TheSignofJonah777In addition to being factually incorrect, your statement is pure American-brained insanity.
I’m still laughing at Norm calling him “Mr. Borelli” and “Mr. Morelli.” I guess he subconsciously thought Destiny is an Italian guy.
😂😂
+Perelli, Ferelli
Benny was slick with that😂😊
Mr. Morelli does sound rather badass
Pacelli
A slow talker, 3 shouters and a mute.
Rabbani is pretty composed here imo
Don't forget about Mr. Morelli and Mr. Borreli, those guys were pretty loud as well
Slow talking doesn't exclude you from shouting, if anything Finklestein was the one that initiated the shouting
There’s no wonder everyone on this reply chain including the OP commentator is a lost cause 🤦♂️ uneducated, uncultured and watched from reality beyond belief. Supporting Nazi Zionists without blinking an eye and not knowing basic facts is wild. The downfall is pretty understandable now.
@@bardol359 Every single time indeed. The guy really has issues, shouldn't be publicly speaking if he's gonna conduct himself this way.
The title has a typo, it is *Mr Borelli* vs *Norman Finkelstein*
You didn’t hear him correctly. It is Mr. Morelle
That's the B-side. There is also Fantastic Moron, Motormouth, and one more, but it escapes me now.@@ahmedkhoja2279
✋ Mr Barbelli! You even Lift, bro? 💪
The Israelites have the same empathy for the Palestinians as the Nazis had for the Jews. History upside down!
@@BbeMamGaga and the Arabs and Palestinian were so compassionate that their leaders admired and met with Hitler himself to discuss their Hatred of the Jews. Not to mention firing the first shot with the full on Invasion after Israel declared it's independence
Mr. Finkelstein is missing the main point here which is Destiny girl name🗣️
AMAZIN
BETA!
Hahahahaha let's swear to never stop using this joke, not even in 10 years, no matter how much his mods delete the comments
"
"Mr Destini...not all knowledge is in Wikipedia!"
Not just a Girl's Name.. but Trailer Trash Stripper Name.
wtf is that Destiny doing there?
Agreed, I think he just increased the overall hostility level in the debate. Even when he made a good case or point, the way he delivered it, made his opponent not listen well.
I heard Shapiro was who Lex wanted, but he wouldn’t do it
@@gutsblackswordsman4707I mean I don't blame Norman for not taking this destiny dude seriously. Even Destiny doesn't take Destiny seriously. The dude chills with his girl's boyfriend live what do you expect. This topic needs some decent knowledgeable smart people to discuss it not clowns.
@@RedbrackHe doesn't have enough caliber to debate with Norman.
@@arafmahmud1302 I agree, but Shapiro has more legitimacy and knowledge on this topic than bomerelli. He'd still get smoked, but it makes more sense than having destiny there.
What is Destiny even arguing about? It was ruled "plausible genocide" because that's the highest "ruling" they can give given the fact that it's not an actual court case yet but rather a hearing. Not only that, when they gave their ruling they also referenced various statements of genocidal intention by the Israeli government/governmental officials. Even though the actual case will take many years, that doesn't mean that Israel can keep on doing what it is doing. It has to stop by international law. These are BASIC things one should know. There SHOULDN'T be a debate on such obvious technical issues.
he said at the end even if Israel nukes Gaza and ends all 2 million lives there he still wouldn’t count it as genocide. His point is to just defend Israel by default.
@@billusher2265Do you think genocide is just "many people dead"? Genocide can be 200 dead, or 2,000,000 dead. But just the number ALONE can not definitively decide if it's a genocide.
@user-by6fp4ov3k You are correct in your statement by itself. But within the context above you're wrong. Re-read the above comment:
"ends all of the two million lives there"
Gaza's population is 2.1 million.
Killing 2 million people in a country comprised of 2.1 million is objectively a genocide.
Sure, the value of the number in itself doesn't matter. It is not a numbers game but It is a game of proportionality, intent, and disregard for human life.
What is happening in gaza already qualifies as ethnic cleansing by the U.N. definition. The entire population of that city (state)has been forcibly relocated against their will under falling bombs. The case against Israel for genocide is legitimate and is very strong.
@@user-by6fp4ov3kGenocide can be ZERO dead too. Killing people is already covered by many many other laws, the crime of Genocide is essentially a crime of intention, akin to the difference between manslaughter and pre-meditated murder, of which Israel is undoubtedly guilty of.
The "various statements of genocidal intention" were read out and then the actual quotes were read. The "quotes" in the report were butchered beyond belief.
I noticed I keep giggling throughout this entire debate, and I realized it's because every participant has a cartoonishly funny voice. It's like listening to Popeye and Daffy Duck have a serious geopolitical debate lol
It's like listening to an Batman audio drama
hahahahaha
No apartheid has a right to exist, period.
👏
It's a good thing there's no apartheid then :)
What do you call the theocratic doctoral monarchies throughout Israel’s neighbors?
@@K0r0s Soon enough, there won't be. Lol
You're presupposing that Israeli occupation meets the standard of "apartheid".
Honestly, I respect Benny Morris for conceding that last point.
Yes that was admirable
I was surprised by that because he's basically admitted the double standard. They say extreme stuff all the time which is fine as long as it's not Palestinians saying it.
@@robertpirsig5011 Yeah. Tons of respect for that.
He was laughing hysterically the whole time destiny was getting insulted
I don't, they did not lose shit. He should have said I reject the framing but concede the point. Morris is the oat on this topic. And he came off the best.
The only thing I really dislike about Destiny is that she automatically takes the contrarian view on almost every issue. She’s never argued this hard in favor of Israel on stream. She was far more reasonable and in the middle.
😂😂 she
SHE 😂😂😂😂😂
I swear if he's debating with a Pro Israel Person,He will instantly become much more left
🤣😂
Her real name is Karen.
Destiny’s Starbucks product placement!
Desperate for some private Z-bills
Starbucks losing billions, destiny product placement won't bring any sales because he's an imbecile XD
No one's buying Starbuck after his performance.
Starbucks coffee is pretty mediocre anyway lol
@@Jose-og909Better than Norm's childish performance
Three people who wrote the fucking books on the conflict, and mr Bonatelli. What is this line up? What was this random internet guy doing here? Poorly chosen lightweight guest, led to an immensely skewed debate
Yes he was so out of depth and an annoying twit
idk man finkelstein was more annoying than that girl destiny
To be fair the debate about Israel and Palestine is the equivalent of arguing weather Water is healthy for u or not. Israel is indefensible
Destiny was right though. Dolus Specialis is mentioned atleast 4 times in the South Africa case and is the specific kind of intent that makes Genocide different from every other crime. The fact that Norm doesn’t know what that is means he didn’t read the case document. You can find the case online and search for the term in there.
@@luigixroxasYour conviction is irrelevant. What is relevant is if there is a substantial population on either side of the argument.
Personally I think Israel has been quite timid in their actions.
norm saying "UNTRUE, UNTRUE, UNTRUE..." is my new alarm
that was hilarious - it did almost sound musical in a weird way. I’d be terrified if it was my alarm lmao
Lol 😅
"Did you read the case?" - "Mr. Borelli" aka Destiny aka Steven Bonnell II😂🤣💀
Mr. Borelli brace yourself. I think we all will Norm 😅
This is the worst moderation of a debate i have ever seen
He mentioned at the beginning of the full debate that this will be the first debate he won't step into and will let them speak pretty freely even when emotions run high
@@kathrynneiberger8373 which is ridiculous
I loved it
@@newonevery740yes i bet you would say that because it exposed your finklespleen
@@thegingerbreadgod1312 naaaaah it is simply terrible. Anyone with a functioning brain knows how a discussion is moderated otherwise it is chaos. Hopefully you have a functioning brain
Norman and Destinys speeds are too different
Destiny got destroyed
@@LeonEdwards-lt1bnyeah via ad hominems but not by debate 😂 🤡
care to elaborate?@@LeonEdwards-lt1bn
@@strangeman9362 awww your online daddy was offended awwwww
@@strangeman9362 I mean, what got Finkelstein throwing those insults was a reaction to "Destiny" sarcastically asking "Did you even read the report" - why is everyone ignoring that ad hominem and acting like it was some sophisticated counterpoint? Flippantly asking "did you even read the report" was absolutely an insult meant to provoke, not some civil retort.
Why is Destiny even on this? wtf?
Because he is more relevant than you?
@@lain5858eww destiny gay lover.
exactly, its pointless
@@lain5858 lol at this loser seeking out all the destiny hating comments. We get it, ur a stan.
lol i was thinking the same thing.. they brought on a youtuber for more hits i guess. You have a bunch of intellectuals with PHDs and like 60 years of authorship, and a youtuber with one semester of college education lol. Nevertheless he made good use of his wiki reading capabilities.
Why did Norm Finklestein agree to debating with Destiny in the first place if he really only wanted to debate Benny Morris?
I think Morris has refused to debate him 1-on-1 going forward.
He did refuse to debate Destiny at first. I think he acquiesced so he'd have a chance to debate Morris, who he was much more prepared for, having read all Morris' work on the topic. I'm not sure Finkelstein had a chance to review Destiny's vast academic literature on Israel Palestine though.
It's clear Destiny isn't a major expert here but his points are logically sound and he is a strong cross-examiner. He's able to point out flaws of reasoning or bad faith arguments and he himself mostly argues in good faith from what I've seen. But I can understand why Finkledinkle would find him pesky because it may present as if Destiny is holding himself up as some expert on this topic, whereas Finkledinkle fancies himself as some kind of demi-god on the subject. But because Destiny is a strong reasoner it's hard to actually point out any flaws in what he's saying which is why Finkledinkle (like I'm doing) got flustered and resorted to name-calling and belittling his credentials. Destiny might not know what he's talking about but he sounds well informed and doesn't open himself up to easy attack (except on his credentials which is taboo in debates). Morris is a legend and also the most reasonable and fair of anyone at the table. I think he has the firmest grasp on the situation and his point is basically hey so what maybe formation of State of Israel had some injustices going on but Arabs made it 10000% worse for themselves by acting so irrationally and refusing to come to a diplomatic solution over borders like how almost eveyr other people have or would have done. He agrees and accepts that Israel might go too far sometimes definitely no doubt about it he admits that but Israel is in an impossible position because Arabs have acted so irresponsibly for the past 8 decades. It's Morris' position that I think is ultimately most convincing. A reasonable population would have come to the negotiating table 70 or 60 or 50 or 30 or 20 years ago and worked out a deal rather than refuse to accept any deal, continue launching violent attacks and continue screaming they're the victims.@@zarbins
The paycheck… duh
who?@@user-ys3cq4ok4k
I feel like a 1 on 1 debate is a better format then 2 on 2. Just my opinion however.
Agreed. 2v2 always results in like the most assertive/aggressive of both sides dominating and taking up 90% of the discussion. Just keep it 1v1.
I wish Lex would have moderated. Make them pause, take a deep breath, and only one person speak at a time.
*than
*than
*than
Continue to write it 100 times.
@@drewbewho thanks! I'm from Brazil and my English is getting better. I'm still struggling with their, there, they're.
@@drewbewho I'm guessing you don't have many friends.
This is more of a dinner-party argument than a debate; too difficult/frustrating to watch productively.
Destiny didn't belong there.
@@Jose-og909yeah he’s over qualified. He smoked that slow paced fuck
Finkelstein didn’t belong here
@@pyotrvoitsekhovski9402Finkelstein really didn’t belong there
If Lex actually moderated but he fishes for clips so
That patch on his beard is messing with me
I've been there I think, its when you mess up shaving and gotta like mess up your whole beard to fit your mistake
@@Ryan-mr3zf Actually, I'm pretty sure it's Alopecia. You better keep my queens name out of your f***** mouth.
It’s shaped like Israel which is the best part
@@Ryan-mr3zf Pretty sure it's just a facial bald spot lol
OMG, I didn't even notice it until I read this
How's Destiny taken seriously? I do not understand 😕
He’s a debate bro that speaks fast, some people get fooled into thinking rhetoric substitutes for good arguments
He brings up only facts, very organized and collected. You don't see this with the other debaters
But Norm is someone we should listen to? The guy sounds like a child
The same way your mom got to breed apparently
@@eshedguitarHe brings boyfriends to his girl aswell...but he doesnt organize consequences of that
How did this livestreamer even qualify to participate in this podcast?
Reading wikipedia. Duh 🙄
Corny comment and completely irrelevant
@@BreathOfDust
destinycel alert.
New take on the issue i guess
@@BreathOfDustaww your idol is in fact, stupid 😂
I wonder if this feisty Sicilian woman Destinee Benelli is related to the Italian firearms manufacturer. Love their shotguns.
😂😂
Italy was among the European nations UK, France, Germany and US that sliced up the Middle East as invading colonizers for their own greed and self enrichment weren't they? Same in the Continent of Africa....however fast forward and the difference here is African countries have wised up and are now summarily removing/kicking the European and US powers out of Africa. TOUCHE!! Free Palestine
I can't believe anyone thinks Norm looks good in this debate. He even said in other interviews that he did not do good and he feels embarrassed.
Exactly.
Rabbani was way better.. calm, intelligent and respectful.
Norman appealed to authority and insulted Destiny and prof Morris a couple of times. it was unprofessional
It's like he aggro'd a bystander NPC lmao
Watching five minutes of his conversation is basically all the proof you need, that there will never ever be peace in that region. Ever
because of Israel
Not until the apartheid regime of Israel ends
@@Abdirahman_Mohamed they've made peace with everyone else in the region.
@@Abdirahman_Mohamed Mohamed says it's because of Israel 🤣
@@leadfaun Not Syria or Lebanon or Iraq or Saudi Arabia or Kuwait or Yemen or Eye Ran lil bro
Ultimately it's Norm debating that Israel mass-murdering Palestinian children is wrong, and Destiny arguing that it's not so bad...
That's what you got? How emotional and bad faith are you to get that?
Respct to Benny Morris for the end of this clip. I was thinking "thats a good point" as Benny said the same thing to his debate opponent.
Norman is on another level. His argument of the "plausibility of genocide" is much for Morris to fathom
or for any other Israeli that actually knows how the IDF and Hamas operates.
Rabbani was way more professional.. Norman lashed out a couple of times, disrespected and appealed to authority. that's hardly "another level"
Considering the subject, this is fairly civil and moderated debate 👍
LOOK I CAN SHOUT TOO!
Lmao
Norman Finklestien - Ph.D in Zionism and Palestinian history, spend years in Palestine, multiple published eorks
Mr. Borelli - Divorced college dropout
Gee wonder who knows what theyre talking about
Elitist and classist, you trust people just cause they have money and fancy diplomas? Why not go after the arguments? If you had any good counters to his points, you'd say them, instead of using diploma eltiist gatekeeping. Same with Finkel, all he has was ad homs just like you, why not debate the points? Anybody who says "i'm too good to debate this person" tends to never have any counter. it's a cowardly excuse.
Yep
I would guess that to someone who's not emotionally involved, destiny comes out more convincing than norm@@b.ballooon9225
@@b.ballooon9225 no one said he had a lot of money, what kinda straw man argument are you making...
@@wapi8411 No I'm not strawmanning. People only respect Finkel because he has a diploma from an ivy league college, in order to get that, you usually have to be richer than the average person. You are appealing to authority, your only argument defending Finkel is his fancy diploma, no substance in your defense, its' just "he's an expert". That's appeal to authority. Get it? I'm not strawmanning, I'm directly responding to your appeals to authority. Appealing to authority is elitist and aristocratic.
@@wapi8411 You strawmanned me by not understanding the connection between money and diplomas from fancy colleges
This debate was hilarious
Mr. Burrelli: "The quote is incomplete!"
Reads complete quote ... sounds ten times worse than the original quote....
Even if you think it sounds worse, the full quote make's it so they are meeting their requirements for the genocide convention where as the edited quote makes it sound like the opposite...
Wouldn't Vietnam and Korea be considered genocide on the part of the USA also?
A statement is more true if you scream it
Exactly my thoughts… just shows the immaturity of the pro Israelis. Norm is screaming because they are interrupting them.
Ye, I mean speaking fast and animatedly is also a pretty shit tactic to boot.
@@AlOfNorway Are you being serious? Finkelstein interrupted the most out of everyone there.
@@nkadenrs703 finkelstein interrupted benny when benny was being dishonest to him and Mouin. He did not interrupt destiny until he started attacking finkelstein. When he directly debated finkelstein, he is the one interrupting.
@@rickstube5299 lol, you fucks can only lie. The video is public. This is obviously not true.
I can’t follow the conversation
Cause you're dumb
what is hank from breaking bad doing here?
The panel was angry that day my friends, like an old man trying to send back soup at a deli.
A Seinfeld classic.
Can someone please explain to me wtf they are even arguing? I don’t understand who is fighting for who and what each position is. I’m so confused
It's about Mr. Bronchialisti
Finklestein not knowing "state of mind" vs "special intent" when it comes to legal cases.
Editor did not include enough context. It’s about a case brought by South Africa against Israel, in the international court of Justice and the Court, found that South Africa met the initial burden for their case of “plausible”. Despite professing that he read the case four times, Finkelstein clearly either does not understand the legal definition of plausible or willfully misconstruing it.
Left side of the table think Israel genocidal and right side is for Israel
It takes three minutes to get to nowhere and then the yelling continues to no end. Thanks for nothing
Who in the f**k is even putting Destiny in the same room as legitimately educated people? Why was he even speaking?
Insufferable and infuriating this is where we're at. Christ.
Pathetic.
Experts fallacy ... these morons never accomplish anything. Why respect such fools?
Destiny seems to draw much better conclusions based on facts that the finkeldick guy
Thank you. Leave it to Rogan’s chair sniffer Lex Friedbrain to elevate the national discourse by inviting a guy who didn’t know where Israel was.
"Legitimately educated people"
Oh brother. It's one of those comment sections.
@@GeorgeSavrille Nothing about that quote is untrue, man.
I don't know what your point is.
how does finklestein not know what dolus specialis is its written in the case a bunch of times
Where in this do you conclude he doesn’t know what that means? He’s angry at Destiny because Destiny snarkily remarked “Did you even read the case?”
He didn't read it. He prob skimmed or read what others said about it. But that's how he rolls today. Dude is so bad faith and disingenuous I can't even watch him anymore. He's like a child.
@@dino9921because he conflated mens rea and dolus specialis, which implies he doesn’t know the distinction and therefore doesn’t know the definition of dolus specialis. Which is a term used 4 times in the report he claims to have read 4 times.
@@dino9921Well he confused mens rea and dolls specialis, which are related but different concepts.
@@bentoomet8805 No he didn’t. You don’t have listening comprehension skills.
Why’s destiny here somebody explain
Because he is more relevant than you?
Because Lex though Destiny would be a good addition, and seems like according to many he was right.
@@lain5858 Dude you're in this entire comment section defending Destiny, find better heroes...seriously. Dude is an ill-informed, nihilistic gamer with depression. You can do better.
@@lain5858destiny gay lover here to give destiny rim job.
are you gonna say this on every comment @@lain5858
Actually its the hosts fault to not step in and make those two let others speak.
Why was Norm seemingly desperate to make Destiny Italian? (Borelli?)
It was a different last name each time, I choose to believe he did it for the fans because it's really funny when you see how consistently he'll pick a new variant each time.
I'm pretty sure he did it intentionally to show that he doesn't hold destiny in high regard.
Calling someone by the wrong name is a show of disrespect, doing it with a different name each time shows he's being *intentionally* disrespectful. Destiny may be the only one at the table who didn't write a book on the subject, but Norm is the only one at the table who had to result to name-calling, ad hominem, and acting generally childish.
@@rosenfaustyeah, you can’t say your interlocutor is ill-informed and childish and then act this way.
@@rosenfaust resort to implies he didn't both destroy destiny the mutes childish points and disrespect him for thinking he deserves a spot at the table
The way he literally brought a starbucks cup ON PURPOSE. Damn, why'd anyone stoop so low
What Destiny never seems to understand is that sharing your girlfriend with other men is Haram.
Dude is a gamer ,why on earth would he consider himself , informed ,educated enough to open his mouth in the presence of 3 experts on the matter
"Expert" is a vague and loose term these days. Destiny often performs better in debates than those who claim to be experts. Norman kept insulting Destiny for hours during the discussion and is very biased on the subject. Not what an "expert" typically does.
@@diogenes. He was not laughing at him, you just make stuff up to make yourself feel better. There's literally no reason to even think that lmfao
@@anacc3257Wtf you mean "performs better" than experts, the dude constantly shows that he does literally nothing but form a dumbass opinion and then read wikipedia pages with that opinion in mind to "prove" is preconceived notion. He does nothing but routinelt embarrass himself and drama farm.
@@ParadeofCrows By Norms own words, he read the case 4 times but still confuses "mens rea" and "dolus specialis" which is stated multiple times in the case Norm supposedly read 4 times. Norm then call Destiny a moron for pointing it out, how disingenuous can you get? Destiny also reads out the so-called quotes used in the report that were butchered and all context removed for them to fit. This is absolutely absurd.
I have 50 million power on rise of kingdoms so ...
On that last point Benny conceded - I was shocked. Is it a valid claim that Palestine lost their whole country? Did Palestinians have more power being occupied by Britain then they do as minorities in Israel?
This framing is off. Think of all the other colonies that became independent states after WWII. Britain could have easily left Palestine an independent state.
@@xenophiliuslovegood6914 Britain actually promised them a state for helping fight off the Otomans. They promised a lot of things..
@@plutopulp They made a generic promisse to all arabs that they would be free, but did not say how or the borders
@@xenophiliuslovegood6914 Even if the British did, the Jews would revolt either way and form their own state
Perhaps u should specificly mention south african case in the title
Finkelstein needs to chill with the insults
What makes this type of 'exchange' almost untenable are the repeated interruptions coming mostly from the Borelli side of the table. I agree with Norm that Borelli did not know what he was talking about. Borelli claims to be able to debate anyone and he probably would. He would therefore sorely lack the requisite knowledge to have any debate in any subject.
What did he say that was wrong?
Interruptions? Literally 8 seconds in Finklestein interrupts Destiny.
@@dfmrcv862 no no you don’t get it. Twinklestein doesn’t interrupt, he explains you see, because Mr. Vermicelli only read chapter 6 of the Wikipedia tweet and doesn’t know what happens in 7. Therefore, Fickleween as a scholar is obligated to educate him.
@@dfmrcv862lmfao
@@AntiTheBird Pretty much his framing of each point he made. The mental gymnastics necessary to regard an apparent genocide as acceptable were breathtaking.
Imagine being neighbors with Norm Finkelstein
It will better life rather than being neighbor with Israhell
You will learn everyday something new! Imagine being neighbors to this moron with his Wikipedia Knowledge and his girly name!
@@Khairee22 still better than the jihadis
I will be honored
@@Morbinhood38385Israhell, Israelsh1tes 😂
All Finkelstein did throughout this conversation was scream and throw insults. How can anyone look at that man and say he has authority in any subject?
Well, imagine the level of intelligence he speaks to if he has to speak that slow.
His listeners are hasan watchers too so it dont even matter what anyone says so long as america bad.@@galileogalilei9297
Agreed. Destiny finally exposed him for the lunatic he is.
@@galileogalilei9297Speaking slow has nothing to do with ones intelligence. Ben Shapiro would be a super genius in that case. But then again you probably think he is lol
I know destiny's dick riders were going to come in here, but you have to be incredibly dishonest with yourself to say that. Finkelstein has decades of knowledge and study on this topic, several books written and read on this matter, and solid arguments that were faced with interruptions and whataboutisms. Clearly this shows more levels of authority than someone who is just a contrarian to get somebody's attention.
I was wondering why the kid from Zombieland was debating Norman Finkelstein and why Norman kept calling him versions of the word Broccolini.😂
I'm still wondering why anybody takes Finkel seriously when he justifies Russian Imperialism. You have to be a racist against Westerners to support Finkel.
That’s a good point sheesh that is the point 👏🏾
😂😂😂😂😂
Mr Duracell, "please stop displaying your imbecility."
😂😂😂😂
Israel Side: 🤯😡😤😠🤬🤬🤬🤡
Palestine Side:🤯😡😤😠🤬🤬🤬🤡
Lex, supposedly moderating: 🤗
Very true, its soo hard to listen what is even going on.
It’s almost as if debates are fucking stupid and redundant
Norman Fikelstein reminds me of that short dude from that video that rants to some dude playing the saxophone or something: "You suck! I played with Bruce Springsteen".....same accent, same tone , same everything
Love the debate but I think Lex should have put a stop to the ad hominem attacks toward Destiny. Once Finkelstein starts doing that, I know he has lost the debate
To be fair, Finkelstein calling Destiny moronic and explaining why his points are isn't really ad hominem.
ad-hominem? Nah, that's literally the point he was trying to make in the moment though. He observed and correctly concluded he was dealing with a moron, and was able to articulate correctly why Destiny is a moron, that's on top of cooking him on everything else.
Sorry, not a Finkelstein fan, but Destiny clearly threw the first stone in regards to insults, by mockingly saying "did you even read the case". He played the man, not the ball.
I agree. I do the same if I lose a debate haha. I start insulting. Lex did a great job just being quiet but it would have been nice if I stopped it at insults.
I disagree. Calling someone a moron vs. asking if he read the case are completely different. Personal insult vs. specific question on the topic. Totally different.@@AfroGaz71
Destiny is literally scrolling through wiki how is he fit for the debate he didn't even knew about this topic before October 7th
How is Finkel fit for a debate when he doesn't have good footnotes, constanlty references his own writing, defends the Charlie Hebdo shootings, and Russian Imperialism.
Did you notice all my criticism were legitimate, about principles and real beliefs? While yours are just "Wiki wariror hur dur elitism silecne all non ivy leaguge people hur dur hur dur" You're all ad homs, at least my issues with Finkel have to do with his beliefs and writings, your issue with Destiny is just you don't like him. That's not a good counter.
Even if Finkelstein was right here(I honestly don't know who is) he would have lost me by his attitude. He lost his temper completely. Arguing by insulting an opponent is basically a moment when one lost a debate. Finkelstein in that case. He looks overconfident and arrogant. Talking to them as if he had the arcane knowledge, was smartest in the room and they had no idea.
I would rather have him kicked out and hear Rabbani debate with Morris. They seem to have the most reason here.
He has the arcane knowledge. He's clearly a level 10 wizard.
I would loose my shit to if I was invited to debate seriously amongst other world renowned scholars, and this arrogant Twitch kid shows up, thinking he knows more than these university professors, smirking and laughing about this genocide. Finkelstein was right to put him back in his place.
Morris, definately. Rabbani? Nah. He was spin-doctoring the entire debate. He's pretty good with language and the way talks tho (likely had high level diplomatic or intelligence agency training), so most people will be fooled by his seemingly cool-headed demeanor. You have to have an excellent control of language and narrative forming, to see how he uses primers to push a larger overall narrative. In a way its much worse then what Finkelstein does. Only idiots will be fooled by Finkelstein, but most people will be fooled by Rabbani.
Morris is a huge liar, been caught lying so many times. You didn't even know he existed until this debate happened, I am giving you an out by saying that, because otherwise you somehow missed the fact that he is a liar that has been caught lying many times.
he's pro palestine, being mentally unstable is a requirement
A 5-hour conversation should tell you all you need to know about someone. If you came away from this conversation thinking anything but that Finkelstein is a condescending, egotistical, and bad-faith intellectual, you are genuinely confused.
Every accusation is a confession. You are projecting there.
@@dragonwest5844 Every accusation of a projection is a confession. You are projecting there.
I’m a destiny fan. But omg this debate would have been so much better if destiny wasn’t there. He added nothing and every time destiny would talk, finklestein would hand his ass back to him and benny Morris had to jump in to defend destiny
Wrong.
Finkelstein is extraordinarily patient, having been dismantling the insanely inhuman propaganda of the pro-zionist apologists for decades.
Some facts:
-Israel has imposed an Apartheid system on the Palestinians for decades, according to every major human rights org (including israeli ones), independent UN legal experts and even according to senior israeli officials.
-Israel has waged a completely illegal war and blockade against Gaza since 2006, crushing its economy and killing and wounding tens of thousands.
-the Israeli occupation of palestinian land is 100% illegal law. Accrding to the ICJ Israel cannot claim the right of self-defence against people it is occupying.
-israel has a long history of war crimes and atrocities: massacres, snipers executing children, gunning down peaceful protesters, collective punishment against civilians, targeting journalists and aid workers and so on.
-israel is one of the biggest purveyors of state terrorism in the world today.
So yeah, the truth hurts ✌️
@@mightyturnip5070 I'm Finkelstein's son. But omg this debate would have been so much better if my father wasn't there. He added nothing and every time my dad would talk...
don't know who is right, but every time Norm opens his mouth I feel a little more stupid. The other guy on that side of the table should have been doing more talking.
Hmmm is erasing an entire people wrong or not? Gee idk who is right here? Its so complicated.
When your best argument against someone is to insult the arguer rather than the argument you already lost.
You just described the entire value system of the western world
Finkelstein was there to debate someone knowledgeable on the subject. He wasn't there to debate someone who learned about the subject yesterday.
@@trugrit7210 This concept of character assassination/discrediting/poisoning the well is rather new to me. I've always engaged with someone's arguments regardless of who they are or how they learned their information.
Just so you know Norm wasn't there to destiny. He doesn't have Time to argue with kids who learned about the issue just one day ago. He was there to debate someone else.
@@CarlNipmuc Science and reason were invented by the Western world.
Wow Destiny got roasted. He barely spoke, and when he did he was dismissed and ignored. Norm telling him to shut up was the most acknowledgement he got.
Did we watch the same clip?
@@jaredmelloYes, you're a destiny fanboy, Norm revealed him to be as uninformed as he is - he looked like an arrogant petulant child in this debate.
@@ParadeofCrows if he did it should be easy to explain what destiny is wrong about. Lets hear it, I’m all ears
@@jaredmellolmao so you’re saying it should be easy to explain a why someone is wrong about a conflict/occupation that has been ongoing since the beginning of the 20th century; that it can be described or refuted in a mere few words. There is an entire history of displacement, murder, and abuse that is also currently unfolding to this day. Trying to explain that to someone who is so unwilling to hear anything other than what they think is anything but easy.
@@masonmcgowan2825 It's probably a pretty good thing that this comment was about this 6-minute-long video instead of the entire history of the conflict then. It shouldn't be too difficult to shed light on what Destiny got wrong in this video, should it?
God it's crazy how unhinged Finkelstein sounds in every one of these clips. Literally never actually engaging with the point, always trying to obfuscate.
He is like that because he realised that contrary to expectations, (he is just some wikipedia, 35 year old gamer, what could go wrong kappa)
Destiny is actually crazy prepared and a lot more knowledgable then him.
He has always been unhinged, look at his Charlie Hebdo statement, his statements for support of holocaust denial. The way he has used his parents being in Dachau to sell his bullshit.
Look who he has to deal with.
@mainulhasanseam8739 If it's from wikipedia it should be very easy to counter argument and refute, right ? :) But senile Finklestein doesn't do that in 5 hours, he just acts like a petulant child.
@@Tiasung i think you should read what appeal to authority means, lowest forms of argumentation, Fink does have more knowledgable but that means very little when you use that to manipulate information, that will make you an easy target, and he probrably did not read the documment, mens rea is not dolus specialis
I am glad mister's Bowlelli's idiocity is on camera-display as per his wish; this thing was so fun xD !
And now your idiocy is on public display in this comments section, as per your wish.
how can you call destiny dumb after watching it ... am asking bcuz destiny literally won this debate 80 to 20. you are literally either 40 yo man who cant accept the truth and lives in a fairy land or youre just destiny hate watcher
i think hes mocking finklestein@@ImotekhtheStormlord-tx2it
@@ImotekhtheStormlord-tx2itdo you think like you write?
I found this insufferable
Unlistenable.
I love how respectfully and creatively professor norman insults
HAHAHA! The best part of this debate as that Destiny is the only one who knows dolus specialis - For an act to be classified as genocide, it is essential to demonstrate that the perpetrators had a deliberate and specific aim (dolus specialis) to physically destroy the group based on its real or perceived nationality, ethnicity, race, or religion. On a panel of lifelong historians about Israeli genocide, only the 35 year old podcaster actually knows the law. HAHAHAHAHA!!!!
👏👏👏 exactly, there’s so much cope here from the norm fans, all they can do is act like saying his make different ways is somehow owning him. Norm is a fraud, always has been
How embarrassing
especially the comments, bunch of classists acting like you need a fancy diploma to have an opinion on this topic. If Finkel truly outclassed Destiny, he would have countered him with more than Ad Homs and ignoring. Anybody who says "You are below speaking to me" actually tends to have no counter themselves and just using it as a cowardly excuse to not engage.
This is really annoying!!! Just let eachother speak, and come to the conclusion by sharing thoughts. Be open for relevant information, but please stop fighting. Let someone finish his sentence.
Should've been finkelstein and benny Morris 1 on 1. Destiny was a huge clown in that room and his mere presence there is an insult to all 3 of them, including Lex. Destiny should stick to being a gaming streamer.
@@joelmiller3218 Benny would never give a clown like fink the time of day he was just there as a favor to Mr.Bornelli
Almost as if someone was being elitist the entire time and refusing to engage even though he agreed to a debate with that someone. Almost as if someone used their diploma and their own books as quotes and reasons why they shouldn't even have to counter the other.
Good clue is, whoever refuses to engage, especially when they use ad homs and excuses like "You are beneath me" which is essentially all Finkel said to Destiny, that person has no counter, they have no points, which is why they refuse to engage. Normal people engage with people even if they are ignorant, Finkel proved he had no counter, normal people would love to dunk on people who are wrong, him refusing to proves he's got nothing to say. If Finkel had a counter, he would have said it, instead of insults like motor mouth. What a disrespectful pos Finkel is, imagine agreeing to a debate, but then coming just to meme and insult.
I won't consider the opinion of a guy who let his wife flirt with another man, ON CAM, LIVE with thousands of views.
I really needed to come back to this video to comment that people just need to go read the South Africa case to see that Destiny was right that Norm didn't read the case. Dolus Specialis is mentioned on page 2. The full 84 page case is online and easily accessible. Even if you don't want to read the case you can search (CTRL F) the term in the case pdf online for both Mens Rea and Dolus Specialis to see that Mens Rea is never mentioned while Dolus Specialis is mentioned 4 times. Quote from the South Africa case page 2 "South Africa’s case is that those acts and omissions are genocidal in character, as they are committed with the requisite specific intent (dolus specialis) to destroy Palestinians in Gaza as a part of the broader Palestinian national, racial and ethnical group."
Crazy that people think Finkel is smart, dude had 40 years to prepare and still knew less than Destiny.
I have a question. Did the ICJ ever rule out that Israel ever committed a genocide in Gaza?
@@barackobama8869 innocent before proven guilty especially for such high charges.
@@b.ballooon9225 alright so if I got it correctly, please correct if I’m wrong but, the state of Israel is not committing a genocide right now because the evidence is there at the moment?
@@barackobama8869 There is no evidence that is correct. South Africa presented some quotes but most were misquoted and out of context. The court decided that it was plausible that the genocide convention could be violated, but that's not them specifically saying it is. It's them saying it is a possibility, but so far there is no evidence of it. So basically, as of this moment, there is no evidence that Israel is doing genocide.
Use personal insult and ask someone to shut up should be an automatic defeat
Not if there talking utter rubbish but it always seems that its like a Jewish fight no fists thrown but lots of shouting and abuse but these lightweights can't compete with Norman Finkelstines intellect he seems to have read everything on this subject and will quote chapter and verse of UN ICJ rules and regulations I think he's marvelous a sane voice in amongst the criminal insane.
"Destiny" sarcastically asked him if he "even read the report". I don't get how everyone's pointing out Finkelstein's insults, while ignoring it's in reaction to a sarcastic insult in the first place, as if sarcastically asking "did you even read the report" is a sophisticated and reasonable argument.
@@RusticKey if you don't know the difference between mens rea and dolus specialis that has been used 4 times in the said report that you claim you have read 4 times, it's a normal pertinent question. So called "expert"... what a buffoon...
@@zorbacosum1978what about mr morris double standard about the extreme politician statements ? Isn’t that buffoon behavior?
@@zorbacosum1978 can you give me the difference between « means rea » and « dolus specialis » ?
Norman is trying to insult Destiny.
That's low quality and immature and he does that a lot
Hey you guys wanna know how we as a society have lost it? When we argue over semantics regarding ongoing genocide.
Should have mentioned the psychotic "Amelek" Bible reference Pipi Netanyahoo quoted: Genocidal Intent 💯
Should also mention Putin's Nova Russiya stuff, it is relevant because Norm calls himself an anti-Imperialist yet supports Russia who is way more Imperialist than Israel, way more settler colonialism, way more ethnic cleansings, gulags instead of ghettos, its way worse. 300,000 Muslims killed in Chechnya. Hundreds of thousands dying in Ukraine, you cannot hate Israel but not Russia, it's pure hypocrisy.
Wow regardless of how I feel mr morris actually conceding that a good point was made shows he is somewhat open to an actual discussion and not just blabbering off his talking points and staying deaf dumb and blind to the other side
unfortunately this doesn't apply to the people on the other side of the table.
@doesntmatter4136f Doesn't apply to the Wikipedia researcher either
never does to zionists @@doesntmatter4136
@@doesntmatter4136 I mean, people on all sides agreed that they could all incorporate extreme Palestinian statements as the basis of their argument.
the problem with this kind of discussion is that one side (mr morris and destiny) refutes things that are considered common sense in the discussion, throughout this debate you notice that one side keeps saying: do you agree at least on this point?
I've been debating for a long time, and to me it's a clear indicator of intellectual dishonesty.
@ihsahnakerfeldt9280 and yet he is the only one who has the ability to acknowledge Palestinians had a just cause in 1948. Rabbani literally said in successive sentences that October 7th was justified but 'swords of iron' was not. Even when hamas held hostages after raping indiscriminately and murdering 850 civilians in a coordinated attack on individual homes. Shameless, one sided and rightfully powerless.
why does finkle sound like he has dementia
He always talked that way, it's his way of cementing an articulate point into your mind so you don't misquote him.
Because your 40¢ earphones from TEMU aren't working properly
Talking slowly it’s for you dementia? We truly live in a time were people is as superficial as they can get
Because he does not have it. Be careful, you might get old too.
When you don’t have a counter argument to make benni morris: that’s good point
I take solace in the fact that people like Malcolm X, Albert Einstein, Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, Christopher Hitchens and Anthony Bourdain all opposed Z!onism.
Prove that without using your intended anti-Semitic rhetoric.
@@hearts_tru_tess what? Are you dense?
You forgot one big one😭
@@ChefCBT who’s that? And please don’t say someone like H!tler. Z!onism was a response to Eastern Europe’s persecution and pogroms against the Jewish people. If anything, Germany helped solidify Z!onism and the creation and the need for its ethno-state. And for the record Z!onism does not equal Judaism. People need to understand that.
@rickstube5299 Answers the question you're dense. Yes, some there have. But 100 years of propaganda and Mongoloids like you, have and are offered that bullsht buffet by propaganda through history in even books and newspapers. Now it's the web and Google and boards with jobless jokes of inhumanity. Anthony Bourdain can be quoted or even shout anti Semitic rants but in NYC when he was a nobody and then he was a somebody he gave thousands to people who needed money for drugs and alcohol rehab whatever race, creed or religion. He paid rent on places for people to sleep till they could afford to live again.
Einstein is what? Oh ok 👍
I don't need to bother much. But, Malcolm X was sorely remiss for his prejudice. You won't be.
Can someone explain what points Finklestein is actually making?
What I heard was that something bad must be happening (i.e. war) for them to say genocide is plausible.
he's making the point that if genocide is plausible case, that means that Israel is deliberately killing civilians and blaming it on "human shields" without any evidence
At this point i don’t think finklestein himself knows exactly what his points are
If the defense minister is saying "no food, water or electricity" into the strip and that's exactly what's happening. Yeah that's genocide. How would you interpret that any other way?
@@abcdefg-nu4xjnot much to expect from a Zionist. Why is genocide even being considered ? Why not throw out the case? What were all the judges thinking?
The Zionist side were saying that South Africa's success against Israel at the ICJ means nothing
Destiny read 1 book and think hes smart af 😂😂😂
Quick reminder the streamer destiny was right on both the meaning of dolus specialis and on the low bar for plausibility set by the ICJ. Anybody can go and read the case right now and check this for themselves, Finklestein the supposedly amazing historian was DEAD WRONG, schooled by a streamer.
Who only reads Wikipedia!!!!!!!!
@@sgo1oneillwrong. Go check again instead of listening to finklesnake and hissan.
Norm is not an amazing historian. He's very emotional and dishonest.
@nmc400 hissan who? surely you mean hamas piker
Norm is not an historian, he's considered a joke in Israel for a reason.
Finkelstein has substitute teacher voice
Nails on a chalkboard. Sounds like an 80 year-old woman with emphysema.
Ahhhh. The debate we didn’t know we didn’t need!
Hypocrite af, ad hominems, while he was crying the other debate when the other guy insulted him, he didnt even answer his questions, ffs!
who are you referring to ?
@@ahmadraihanfahriza6149I think he thinks Norm was attacking Destiny but Norm was putting his puerility in its proper perspective. I do think Destiny responded well, she shut the fuck up and put her head down.
Its so sickening when grown ass adults fall in to worshiping celebrities
It wasn't ad hominem 😂😂. Learn what it means before using it. And he answered the question.
@@12thninja Please stop displaying your imbecility. Don't put on public display that you're a moron; At least have the self-possession to shut up.
destiny right? because norman actually was pretty chill
Norm is insufferable!!!
The tone & whiney tone just grate a person...woe is me all the time!!!!
Yes, he was cornered. A professional grifter facing a guy who is literally quoting solid sources and not speaking bullshit as he must be familiar to. In this case he actually had to argue using facts and logics and not talk bs using his "i'm the #1 authority on this matter and my IQ is superior to yours".
Surprise, grifters can't argue in good faith so he had to double down on being a prick.
he really is, one of the more unlikeable people I have seen debate
Not as insufferable as Destiny. Not by a mile.
@@gsp3428🤖
So disingenuous of Destiny right off the top. Saying the allegations are not even well founded.
Destiny’s referencing that in the ICJ, in an document from Judge Nolte, the ICJ is not currently being asked whether South Africa’s allegations are well founded. It could be the fact that they are after proper investigation, but no international court is yet determining that the claims of genocide are well founded.
@@donnyhuynh2298 🤔 🤷
He is quoting the ICJ case..
It's literally a quote from the case...
@@AntiTheBird you think ad hominem is valid argument, this shows why Fink makes such huge success, you did not read the document just offend the person that showed that you didn't read lol
Okay, do they ever talk about Dolus Eventualis then?
Nope, Finkel distracted away because it made him look bad.
Destiny dosent belong in this room. i would love to see Pape and Morris talk it out.
Finkel doesn't belong in the room, 40 years and he has nothing but insults and "gotchas" to bring to this discussion, he was a drain on the whole convo, Destiny learned more in a few months than that brainwashed Charlie HEbdo shooting defending crazy pop historian.
God, how can they think plausible case means nothing? This really illustrates the utter shamelessness of Israel.
They never said it means nothing, it’s just not significant.
@@Pink_sauce not significant = means nothing in this context. Morris and Destiny so wrong and so arrogant to claim that.
@@Pink_sauce Well then they took away the wrong meaning from the word and clearly, so did you.
He didn't say nothing, but it is a low standard, Finkel was wrong. You wouldn't accuse a nation of genocide just off of "plausible". it's a huge accusation and requires much higher standard of proof.
Norm is absolutely unbearable to listen too. Lex should have chosen someone else to represent the Palestinian side instead, of that contrarian grifter.
I agree when someone says things that are right and against your ideas and views, it's unbearable to listen to
@@K.9.11 Norm immediately resorts to ad hominem attacks instead of listening to the facts laid out . Destiny reads out official reports - and Norm has no idea about what destiny is talking about!
"things that are right and against your ideas" - Norm is a guy that does not believe in 'reading from devices'
@@goldenhorde106 Correct, He's about reading official reports, he's about reading from the main source while Destiney, quite literally, used Wikipedia. Bro used Wikipedia.
@@goldenhorde106 Also, I don't think any one wouldn't loose their cool if someone was saying "Okay, so what if they're killing children, it's still not genocide"
You have one of the top 10 army, 550K in numbers, going against 20K, that's almost 28 to 1 ratio, and they still use an excuse of killing civilians? Norman wasn't going Ad hominem, Norman was showing his humanity at being angry over such despicable acts
@@K.9.11 Destiny read entire UN reports, Internal law textbooks and 5 books on stream. You are buying into lies because you want to believe them. The evidence shows you wrong buddy. Norman was doing text book ad homs buddy, stop gaslighting, that's what 12 year old school girls do, we all saw what he did.