Norman Finkelstein vs Benny Morris debate Palestine history | Israel-Palestine Debate
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- Опубліковано 15 бер 2024
- Lex Fridman Podcast full episode: • Israel-Palestine Debat...
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GUEST BIO:
Norman Finkelstein and Benny Morris are historians. Mouin Rabbani is a Middle East analyst. Steven Bonnell (aka Destiny) is a political livestreamer.
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Guest bio: Norman Finkelstein and Benny Morris are historians. Mouin Rabbani is a Middle East analyst. Steven Bonnell (aka Destiny) is a political livestreamer.
destiny is a disgrace and mentally ill
Nothing against Norman, in fact I’m on his side of the debate. He’s usually on point with these topics. But until we see a Paly-Stinian at the table to debate, it’s never going to be resolved! Weasels like destiny. Lex and Zios sheels will ensure that no one blames is-real. They not going to acknowledge unfavorable truth!
Pardon my intentional misspelling. Which speaks volume to my point and zio influence on censorship!
The college drop out destiny is new to the topic compared to the professionals with decades of study. Dont bring him to these discussions
@@amylolxoxAgreed. Not fair to have two anti-Zionists against one Zionist in a debate. I'm sure there's no shortage of Israeli historians that would be a better fit.
@@guythetechguy Wouldn't have mattered. Nobody can justify stealing land and then claim that the victims are wrong to protest and resist. It's an idiotic position.
He talks about "squatter farmers" like there was a legitimate land transfer. The people lived there for generations farming the land then someone came along and decided that it wasn't really theirs because no deed existed, then fabricated a deed and sold it to someone. That doesn't make you a squatter that makes you someone who's land was stolen through a legal mechanism that was invented specifically for that purpose.
He’s a boer what do you expect?
Exactly.
Why would it not be a legitimate land transfer if the Ottoman's had been in the land for 400 years? Some of the owners of the land who willingly sold it were from Syria and other places.
My thought exactly. They didn't have a western created deed to the land so therefore they didn't "own" it. Bullshit argument. Just another tactic of colonialism.
@@NATIVEMANHATTANITETo many farmers it came as a complete surprise that the land they or the village had cultivated for generations now did not belong to them, but had ownership transfered to a private individual.
Makes me ill to hear thieves repeatedly justify their actions, gaslighting their victims and the world, devoid of any responsibility and guilt around the numerous atrocities committed.
Yes the Arabs that stole the lands of the Levant, and North Africa ruined so many cultures, languages and peoples.
I'll root for Palestinian borders after you spend 10 years fiercely Advocating and fighting for USA borders.
exactly. its time colonising arabs will give the non arab and non muslkm ethnic and religious minorities in their countries equal rights,especially the minorities predating them in the middle east. maronites,assyriacs,kurds,berbers,mandeans and us mizrahi jews. after banishing us from the rest of the middle east,we aint leaving our ancestors land without burning the middle east first. if thats what the islamists and pan arabs want instesd of 2 states solution -they will get it .
@@ytc3182 if only the natives could protect their borders
They have already spent more than 10 years fighting for the US borders.@@ytc3182
If you've never seen a weasel trapped , this is what it looks like.
With comments like this I don’t believe you’ve ever seen a weasel unless looking in the mirror, Finkelstein obviously has respect for his work.
"Until the lions have their own historians, tales of the hunt will always glorify the hunter."
C'est très vrai. Heureusement il y a des archives (même si pas de tout, et bien sûr dans le travail des milices israéliennes au début: aucun Référendum ne pouvait avoir lieu pour les sionistes car les habitants arabes étaient les 2 tiers tandis que les sionistes arrivant (pas les juifs DEJA sur place) pas la moitié. Il y a aussi des travaux très rigoureux d'autres personnes, même israélienne au départ (même s'il ne souhaite pas y vivre je crois ou peut être est il interdit de séjour ?) comme ceux d' Ilan Pappe: vraiment je vous encourage à les lire)
"It's called The American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it."
-George Carlin
They are thieves, don't compare them with a lion lol
Benny is basically saying that Native Americans too also made too many mistakes when they attacked white settlers and that they never should have used violence.
yeah like they had a choice
His mom owned farm where Slaves work I think in Cuba
Not even remotely the same scenario though. Native Americans weren’t given a choice, they weren’t given multiple chances to have a state, the Arabs were.
@@boredom5132Learn your history, buddy.
@@boredom5132study the Zionist Palestinian project.Netanyahu also said he never wanted a two state solution and just pretended to want it
When finklestien has your 3 books infront of him with page marks... you bout to get this work
its his own books that quote benny`s books out of context. the fact that people fall for this is so depressing.
@@yoav116I love that this depresses you more than ethnic cleansing. Get some perspective.
Yeah, and Benny and Lev are like, hey no exposing Benny.
😂😂 yeah 😅
@@yoav116this claim is repeated in absurdum but rarely does the claim hold up to scrutiny.
Destiny is completely out of place at this table. Dude's wrong on pretty much everything of importance in the first place but he's just completely out of his league with these guys.
yeah, it’s genuinely insulting he was even invited.
3 scholars and a professional starcraft and drama streamer 😂
Norm is just trolling him the whole time but it's unclear whether Density or his stans understand that 💀
Destiny stans seem to believe it's a "moral character" point against Norm to troll Destiny so heavily but I question the moral character of someone showing up to a debate armed with three months of crammed notes and Wikipedia summaries who is expecting to be taken seriously.
It's honestly ridiculous that he's even at this table. He might seem relatively smart when he's debating laypeople, but his positions are consistently awful and his utter lack of knowledge and expertise shows as soon as he's in a position like this.
Did I hear it right that “The Arabs are squatters???” Omggg the projection is insane.
You have to remember . At the start of the twentieth century there was just over half a million people in the holy land. Most of the Arabs who now call themselves Palestinians were itinerant workers from Egypt, Jordan and Syria who came to work for the Jews making the land habitable.
Yes the Arabs come from Arabia, hence the name. They are not native to Israel
@@FeathersMcGraw_ You are either very misinformed or being plain disingenuous. Most Palestinians part of the Arab ethnic group. They have lived on the land for centuries. Current day "Israel" was brutally stolen by the settlers and the indigenous Arab (as well as Druze and Bedouin) Palestinian people were forcibly expelled.
@@credibility63 What? That's utter BS and the worst kind of hasbara and historical revisionism. I know Palestinian families who were expelled from modern day "Israel". Their connection to their ancestral land goes back centuries. Shame
@@jamesryan4325 So thank you for apologising about your revisionist nonsense. One of the most common family names in Gaza is El Masri, literally "the Egyptian". In the west bank were Jordanian nationals until 1988. They had Jordanian passports and voted in Jordanian elections. The Arabs only refers to themselves as Palestinians since 1968, prior to that they were known as Palestinian Arabs, from Arabia.
1. Haifa Massacre 1937
2. Jerusalem Massacre 1937
3. Haifa Massacre 1937
4. Balad al-Sheikh Massacre 1939
5. Haifa Massacre 1939
6. Haifa Massacre 1947
7. Abbasiya Massacre 1947
8. Al-Khisas Massacre1947
9. Bab al-Amud Massacre
10. Jerusalem Massacre 1947
11. Sheikh Burek Massacre1947
12. Jaffa Massacre 1948
13. Deir Yassin Massacre
14. Tantura Massacre 1948
15. Khan Yunis Massacre 1956
16. Jerusalem Massacre 1967
17. Bahro Al Baquar 1972
18. Sabra and Shatila Massacre 1982
19. Al Aqsa Mosque Massacre 1990
20. Ibrahimi Mosque Massacre 1994
21. Jenin Refugee Camp
April 2002
22. Gaza Massacre 2008-09
23. Gaza Massacre 2012
24. Gaza Massacre 2014
25. Gaza Massacre- 2018-19
26. Gaza Massacre2021
27. Gaza Massacre 2023 is still ongoing
DONT LET ANYONE CONVINCE YOU THAT IT STARTED ON October 7th
This is before 1948.
Arabs were killing Jews in Tel Hai in 1920
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tel_Hai
Arabs were killing Jews at Nebi Musa in Jerusalem in 1920
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Nebi_Musa_riots
Arabs were killing Jews at Jaffa and Pekta Tovah in 1921
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_riots
They were massacring Jews in Hebron in 1929
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
Arabs were massacring Jews in Tiberias in 1938
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Tiberias_massacre
Arabs massacred Jews throughout the Arab Revolt
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936-1939_Arab_revolt_in_Palestine
And let’s not forget that the first terrorist group in Palestine was an Arab group, The Black Hand, formed in 1930 by Sheikh Izz ad-Din al-Qassam (whom Hamas would later lovingly name their murderous rockets after) for the explicit purpose of murdering Jewish civilians:
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hand_(Mandatory_Palestine)
So stop with this tired “Jews were terrorists and Arabs were poor defenseless lambs” narrative.
Funny you mention massacres against Arabs but not the plethora of massacres of Jews that began much earlier and all throughout the Arab world including Mandatory Palestine
1929 Hebron Massacre. And you left out hundreds of Arab violence against Jews before and throughout and forever. Where is the Jewish population of Gaza today? But it doesn't matter where it started, Oct 7th stands on its own as one of the worst crimes against humanity in modern times.
SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe.
1. The British Colonists Created The Caste System, For Their Divide & Rule Policies.
2. They Also Created Sikhism To Divide & Rule Hinduism & Islam.
3. The Greek philosopher Pythagoras is considered the father of ethical vegetarianism. The Pythagorean way of life was followed by a number of important personalities and influenced vegetarian nutrition until the 19th century.
The exact beginning of idol worship as known in current Hinduism is unknown. It could actually be quite recent (Recent like around 500 BC. ). During the period of the Indus Valley civilization, there many statues and idol like objects found.
Historians have shown that at the time of the oldest Hindu sacred text, the Rig Veda (dated to the second millennium B.C.), cow meat was consumed by Indians. Over time, particularly from the fourth century B.C., vegetarianism began to spread among India's Buddhists, Jains and some Hindus.
Archaeological evidence from the islands of the Aegean Sea have yielded Neolithic era Cycladic figures from 4th and 3rd millennium BC, idols in namaste posture from Indus Valley civilization sites from the 3rd millennium BC, and much older petroglyphs around the world show humans began producing sophisticated images.
4. Many Verses Within The Vedas, Avesta, Cannon, Psalms, Torah & Gospel, Still Have Authentic Verses.
5. The Corrupted Verses From These Scriptures Sent, Are All The Double Dutch Verses, Which Contradict The Nature Of God.
6. All These Scriptures Testify God Being One.
7. All Later Verses With A Trinity Were Added, Some With Multiple Marvel Like Gods [Hinduism].
8. The Noah Family:
Vedas:
There Is Only One God,
There Is Only One Source,
There Is Only One Supply.
Avesta Zoroastrian:
There Is Only One Wise God,
Whom Is Uncreated.
Buddhist Cannon:
There Is Only One God,
Whom Created Good & Evil.
9. The Abraham Family:
Torah [Old Testament]:
The LORD is our God, the LORD is one.
Gospel [New Testament]:
I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me.
Quran [Last Testament]:
Say He Is God, The One, The Absolute,
He Begets Not, Nor Is He Begotten,
There Is None Comparable Unto God.
Hebron massacre by Arabs of the Jews in that city was in 1929. Majority of the early massacres were by Arabs against Jews.
Hope we’ll have peace eventually. But must not spread one-sided propaganda.
Basically Jews were sold land that didn't belong to the seller. It would be like me selling my neighbour's home to some random person.
No, the people that lived there got a big oppurtunity to create a country. The arabs did not want to share a country with the jewish people. Remember, a people that lived there for thousands of years. A great number of semitic peoples, sharing much of the same history Jews/muslims alike. But remember that the turks ruled this land before the brits, they also oppressed the jews. Ofc some jews from other parts of the world came to migrate. Everyone had right to the land. Most of the arabs stayed within israel and became israeli citizens just like the jews. Its a non religios country with religious freedom. When the arabs attacked israel, they told the arabs to leave to the egyptian and jordanian occupied zones of gaza and the west bank. Unlucky for them they did not get that citizenship because they joined the enemy in a war, but the egyptians and jordanians dont care for their fellow muslims. Ironic, is it not.
@@eliteviktor3 lies, lies and yet more lies
@@eliteviktor3the Palestinians wanted a single democratic state for all, they rejected the Peel Commission - the Zionists wanted a Jewish supremacist state, and the Europeans wanted to get rid of the Jews hence they promised the Palestinians their own land but subverted it first with the Sykes-Picot agreement then with the Balfour Declaration. Also, the Palestinians are Arabs in the sense they speak Arabic not necessarily genetically Arabic, genetic tests done on them show they have ties going back to the earliest inhabitants of Palestine while most Ashkenazi are majority European - refer to the paper A Substantial Prehistoric European History Among Ashkenazi Maternal Lineages. I could go on but I think this is enough to let you know your history is incomplete and wrong.
Crazy considering most of them are actually genetically from the Middle East,😂 @eliteviktor3
Land is not bought on that scale besides maybe the lousiana purchase. Most land of that size is conquered. How do you think the arabs got the land in the first place?
16:00 how does one country (GB) have the right to give away someone else's land?
Exactly
It was British land at the time
@@FeathersMcGraw_ The "British madate" does not mean that they owned the land fyi
@@jamesryan4325 Actually that's exactly what it means.
@@jamesryan4325the land was ceded by the Ottoman Turks who had, centuries before won the land thru conquest, to the League of Nations. LON then gave it to the British
Morris is profoundly disingenuous. It wasn’t so much a question of Palestinians rejecting Jews, but indigenous people rejecting the settlers
Brought in by the British illegally after a sweet deal that had been struck with European Jews for money that helped their war effort ..
Jews were living there way before European jews immigrated to the land and they were treated as dimis regardless. So no, that’s factually not true.
@@adamolition8702 aaah three thousand years ago , with no artifactual evidence of Israel/ judea existing . The Bible is not a history book .
Using 'Indigenous' to describe Arabs but not Jews living in the area I think is very disingenuous.
@@jaythompson5102 agreed , but what per cent were Arab Jews ?
And what nobody mentioned was what Illan Pappe tells us, that before any Arab army had invaded, the Israeli's had already ethnically cleansed several Palestinian towns and villages. So this "they never accepted the Israeli state and instead invaded us" argument just doesn't wash. Why, did they invade? They're gonna watch their Arab neighbours go through that? Nah.
Jew's originate from the Eurasian steepe
Why should they accept an Israeli state? Why should Palestinians give up their land to white foreigners.? Would you give up yours?
First off, that'ss not true that ethnic cleansing started there afaik. Plus, the Arab would absolutely sit by and let that sort of things happen just like they let China oppress the Ouighours in much worse ways
well said. I'm surprised Norm didn't make that point
@Elizadoolittle1948. You want them to quote Pappe because he impressed you? What he says is not necessarily true, and we appreciate that this might surprise you.
So, Mr. Benny, just because you believe something doesn't necessarily make it so.
Few questions:
1- UN general assembly decisions are not enforceable. So, other nations can ignore it. The establishment of the zionist state is based on a UN general assembly resolution and not enforeceable. Correct?
2- British were occupiers of the land of Palestine. Who gave them the right to give the land to someone else? Can Russia give the occupied Ukrain to another people?
Who gave the United Nations the right to give land?
The UN itself can't enforce decisions made by the UN but other entities can. You could say that Hagana and Irgun enforced the UN decision to establish a Jewish state (except that they took more land than was allotted to the Jews by the UN)
Officially the British were just appointed by the League of Nations (a kind of precursor of the UN) to take care of the land untill a proper state could be established. Of course the British were a (or perhaps the) major power in the League of Nations so they basically appointed themselves. They used their mandate to fulfill the promise that their foreign minister (mr. Balfour) had made to a major Jewish banker by the name of Rothschild.
@@13tuyutiWell said.
Hats off to Norm for debating Benny Morris on the basis of his own writings😊❤
I could have listened to these debaters for hours.
Benny Morris is a liar
@@nerminak1768 whst not fit your religion agenda is a lie
@@nerminak1768That’s putting it lightly.
Norm is an embarrassment for any serious scholar. His selectivity is morally bankrupt.
By the mid 1930's Yosef Weitz, Head of J.N.F. had come to the conclusion that Jews could not live alongside Palestinians and ethnic cleansing would be the logical conclusion. This was written in his journals. Ben Gurion was of the same opinion as were the leaders of the jewish military in 1948
Exactly 💯
It appears as though the events unfolding in Gaza currently are
attempts at the final ending to the plans hatched in the 1930s.
Mind Begs the Question:
- If God exiles a people from a land
- For their Transgressions,Evil
- To reestablish State with Messiah
- If reestablish State before Messiah
- Following God or Following Satan?
After the Arab riots and massacres of Jews in the 1920's and 30's then you would come to the same conclusion.
Stay in the moment not the rear view mirror, the majority Israeli's today would love to live in peace with their Palestinian cousins.
At one point Lex interfered just as he said he wouldn't do, and took a side of allowing Morris to interrupt and yell over Norman, and then Lex chastised Norm saying that they were so lucky to have Morris present. I found it very very cringe-worthy.
Yeas , then he repeats B. Morris statements , and we can tell a lot about him therefore
Why is destiny here ? Lex miscalculated
He was the only one who actually put up a fight. Norm was embarrassing.
view farming. lex knows exactly what he's doing.
Crazy how much talk is needed to justify a lie and theft.
Facts
Islam has a lot of horrible material to choose from
@@jaysonb.6669 hmm, 600 page book for the Quran, then 6 fully authentic Hadith books that just document the prophet's actions and life.
Compare 7 books to let's see, the Bible alone has over 6000 pages, the Torah isn't even found in its original form anymore so 🤔, any country's law books, any volume of scientific journals...
No, Islam has the fewest and it's the most concise, buddy. Facts 👏
Free watermelon.
@@omareldasher7083 Be quiet Arab Nationalist Omar. LMAO.
@@omareldasher7083bruh, Quaran is incomplete without Haidiths and Hadiths show prophet Muhammad is a pedo slave master warlord…
Benny often changes his view. Often cpntradicting his own work.
It seems like he's saying people shouldn't resist a foreign invasion.
Destiny participating here is like having 3 academic scholars and Ronald McDonald debating.
So true.
So out of his league. Who the hell calls himself "Destiny" anyway.
9:14 Benny Morris is being disingenuous here when he said Ben Gurion was willing to keep Arab population and only abandoned this idea after Arabs started 1948 war.
In 1937, 11 years before war, he wrote to his son and expressed his willingness to take by force - and expel the Arab population from - the territory not allotted to Jews by the Peel Commission in case Arabs did not agree to willingly resigned from that territory.
He even predicted the reaction against such Zionist endeavour from neighbouring Arabs and how to deal with such situation:
“Clearly in such event we will have to deal not only with the Arabs living in Eretz Israel, since it is very probable that Arabs from the neighboring countries will come to their aid. But our power will be greater, not only because we will be better organized and equipped, but also because behind us stands a force still greater in quantity and quality. This is the reservoir of the millions in the Diaspora. Our entire younger generation of Poland, Romania, America, and other countries will rush to our aid at the outbreak of such a conflict.”
Again, just like finklestein, using quotes (often misrepresented and out of context but NOT always) does not prove anything, actions are what really matters. In reality, even after israel won the war in 1948, they agreed to keep a (actually very large) minority of 30% arab population and give them full citizenship. Did israeli leaders say some unhinged things? Obviously, should they be held accountable? I believe so, but only looking at quotes and nothing else is extremely dishonest
Agreed Benny Morris is disingenuous
@abcdefg-nu4xj
David Ben-Gurion, from the beginning, talked about expelling the Palestinian population. Of course, he used the term "Arab"
I'll never forget Ben Gurion's "...in some other way" comment when referring to how the Jews would try to gain control over all of Palestine.
@@abcdefg-nu4xj
You are a Lier.
Among the Zionist quotes were David Ben-Gurion, saying "we must expel the Arab population".
Benny is a master of remolding history. His ability to reinterpret his own words suggest he may have studied as an attorney. Reminds me of Dershowitz sans “I kept my pants on while at Jeffrey’s island”
Or "I will give 10k to the PLO if anyone can find an error in my book"
Exactly !! That what they are doing. ‘Remoulding history’ and when he got trapped in the corner. He said that the book was talking about Argentina !!
Nah man, look up finkelstein rewriting the story for CHarlie Hebdo to equate them with a Nazi officials, or his endorsement of Irving, holocaust denier and nazi.
A revisionist “neo-historian”
A liar and genocide supporter
benny hill's book is just a work of fiction. theft is theft.
Prof. Finkelstein, I congratulate your didactic clarity of your logical argumentation.
Great debate. But I really don’t understand what the “Destiny” guy is doing here
Yes. Why is he there? Is this Lex Fridman appealing to his audience?
We have to remember Lex is a smart guy-but not necessarily mature enough to realize getting his low-info friend on a serious debate might not have been a good look.
It is a great debate.i dont think u could have someone like murray on here.the eye rolling,the personal insults.just would not work.as for murray himself i think he is extremely dangerous and a part of this new alt right wing movement.manic rants about muslims,calling for the army to take to the streets and do what?shoot protestors?calling scotland mp a infiltrator?just pure race bile
I sincerely hope serious debate organizers take note of how inappropriate and embarrassing Destiny's presence was here and leave his ilk out of future scholarly debates
What's awesome about Norman Finkelstein is that his whole public existence seems to exist around knowledge-seeking and challenging current orthodoxies revolving around Israel. Every time he speaks you virtually can see how his mind is working in his effort to elucidate, to cut though the misinformation and lies.
These gaslighters and liars are not able to go with him toe to toe. He sees the BS and cuts through it. The man dedicated his whole life to the cause. They can't deal with it.
Tell me you’re a delusional pro-Palestinian without telling me you’re a delusional pro-Palestinian.
🎉🎉🎉
🎉
@@heygirl5565 How can they? Finkelstein has found his Northstar while his opposition is driven by base things like profit and position. There's no stopping him.
Mr Finkelstein is the original dictionary of humanity
He's the asshole who said he had no sympathy for the victims of Charlie Hebdo? Correct?
Yeah right. The guy is a psychopath and a liar.
@@redpapuangoblinredpapuango2755 the opinion of a Zionist.
@@whatname4613, I'm no Zionist so you can save the energy. I believe in logical, rational, evidentiary, consistent argumentation. It doesn't matter who is arguing. With that said, Finkelstein is a dishonest, evil human being. Have you read the scholarly arguments against him on the same level that you read into his work?
@@redpapuangoblinredpapuango2755
You have right to defend yourself
Piers Morgan
Why would you agree to give someone your home and you go and live in neighbour's barn ? Of course you will fight back. If you disagree, give them your home because 3 milion of them are saying they are not going back.
Why did the not-yet-Israeli state completely dispossess almost every single urban Palestinian, from homes to vehicles to bank accounts?
The moderator shouldn't interrupt the conversation, especially when Mr. Finklestein is taking Morris to task on clear contradictions in what he's written and what he's now trying to say.
Because Lex is a rabid zionist.
WELL SAID
the moderator shouldnt have let norm have these books on hand, nor should he have let him stay after he clearly showed his intentions are quoting Benny out of context to farm tiktok clips
@@idoporges9215Out of context? Norm's argument is based on the context of what Benny said earlier as compared to what he said later. Norm is presenting the context quite explicitly.
@@idoporges9215why is it wrong to ask for clarification of words written in a book? Or have the book to hand? Are you serious?
Intellectual honesty v intellectual dishonesty. Read widely and judge for yourself.
I remember during the debate, Rabbani brought up Cecil Rhodes notes where Herzl makes his stance clear on colonial nature of his plan. Professor Morris's response? "Oh, he was talking about Argentina" - that makes it OK somehow for these ghouls.
Bottom line is: How do you get a Jewish state when the majority of the people are Palestinian Muslims and Christians? It can’t happen. It also can’t happen in Argentina with native Argentinians either. So this was never the case and never the intent of the leaders.
So glad they didn't get to try to colonize that part of South America, it was hard enough to kick the Spanish out of there.
@@chrismonje6310 The Spanish and Portuguese are still there (at least their descendants are). They are the elites in those countries. The indigenous people are mostly marginalized except in a few limited cases.
Well it DID happen and not going anywhere-the rest of the Jew hating world is going to have to get used to it-figured they would after all this time never mind the thousands of years of history there was in Israel before hand
Whose dumb idea was it to seat an intellectual flyweight like Destiny at the same table as a Superheavyweight like Finkelstein?
Destiny is
Finkelstein is far from a heavyweight...
@@rjmaroof I'm not talking about his physical size, but rather his scholarship....
......lex 😅 make a tour on his channel,and you'll understand why .. pretty obvious!
@@ricb7801his “scholarship” is of literal no significance.
It’s a shame that Destiny got a seat at that table, there are people much more qualified than him to take his place
Shame that norm is there too, embarrassed himself
Definitely not Norm. He is the same asshole who said he has no sympathy for the victims of Charlie Hebdo
@@m.j.e.5245 Norm did brilliantly, Destiny and Benny looked completely clueless. The fact that their arguments held no logical consistency and they contradicted even their own previous sayings and quotes. Then having the so-called liberal Destiny suggest international law just be flouted because Israelis are land grabbing genocidal monsters speaks volumes!!
well... he was qualified enough to make Norm look like an imbecile...
@@m.j.e.5245 you didn't watch the video then 😂
Zionists: I'd like to offer you a portion of your house.
Palestinians: No, thank you. We'll keep all of our house.
Zionnists: How ungrateful? How illogical?
👏👏👏👏
I love how your "No thank you" is actually suicide bombings.
@@m.j.e.5245you do know that Jewish terrorist groups started terrorist bombing campaigns first. Palestinians started doing that much later, and on smaller scales than Israeli bombings
😂@@m.j.e.5245
@@m.j.e.5245Check who started the bombings. King David Hotel to be precise.
Morris is not fit to wipe pro Finkelstein’s shoes
The quality and quantitiy of debate on this subject in the last six months has been incredible. I think this was a real coup for Lex Friedman. To get a debate between Professor Finkelstein and Professor Morris was much needed. I thought Mouin Rabbani put forward some really strong arguments and stole the show in the end. Overall a fantastic debate that covered some really important ground and a must watch for anyone interested in the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians.
Huge mistake to "westernise" a land wich belong to the East.God knows why Herzl imagined that will work.
It is working. Has for 75+ years. The rest of the ME is a cesspool. Israel is doing remarkably well.
That's funny. Why are all the place names Hebrew?
The rest of ME is a cesspool cause u have a shitty state supported to the max by the west that ignite wars left and right just for 6 millions psychopaths, u r not the one who is paying the price for this enlightened state shit
HERZL WAS TRYING TO SAVE HIMSELF FROM THE OVENS IN EUROPE ON MAKING THE PALESTIANS PAY FOR IT WITH THEIR LAND MORE THAN WESTERNISE ANY SHIZ
@@VictorSnellerthey renamed many of them after 1948 lol. The modern Hebrew language itself was created using existing languages. Nothing ancient about it.
I would never watch Lex, but only did it for Professor Finkelstein. It’s curious how Lex cut off Prof. Finkelstein when he was quoting Benny Morris’s book, arguing that “Morris is here now” so it’s not necessary to quote him from his own books. Thus Lex is arguing that Morris should be allowed to whitewash and lie about what he actually wrote in his books. Why is Lex hosting this? He is doing it for $$$$. It’s not about having an enlightening debate.
Exactly this! I have in front of me both his books "Righteous Victims " and "The Birth[...]Revisited ". In both books he demonstrates that long before 1948, the idea of transfer became mainstream zionist belief in late 1920s and 1930s and by 1936 coexistence was seen as inconceivable and that a physical separation could only be achieved "by way of transfer and expulsion" (Righteous Victims page 139)
Absolutely! Barely anyone picked up on this. I don't really know much about Lex, but thought he really was one of the fair ones. But no, he's just like the rest
@@hakanpetersson2662and benny morris never said the facts in his books aint true,he said he has new prespective his milleu in the academby ignored,like the fact till 1929 massacre ben gurion supported a cantons federations,the violence against ancient sephardi communities and middle eastern jews in the rest of the arab world,the different treatment to muslim migration compared to jewish migration,and the consistent refusal of palestinian muslims to accept a 2 states solution.
@@user-we4ih1tp7n But those are just his display of beliefs. I am talking about his conclusions based on the factual record here. There's no new facts presented that disqualifies his earlier conclusions. Violence against arab jews were not front and centre until the creation of Israel, which in turn is reflected in share of jews coming from Eastern Europe being much higher than from arab states pre-1948.
@@hakanpetersson2662 its not his "display of beliefs", ben gurion have plenty of correspondence before the 1930s showing his support for cantons solutions before 1929 hebron and safed massacre. he add context to his assertions in the books,and he changed his perspective,he didnt diss his previous work. as for pogroms against mizrahi jews-1929 hebron and safed massacre,1938 tiberias pogroma,thrace massacres,algiers pogrom,1941 farhud in iraq,1945 tripoli and egyot pogroms,1947 aleppo and aden massacres. all that before the establishment of israel. and i dont even add massacres by pan arabs and islamists against other minorities...
On what basis East european immigrants (Jewish converts) have any right in the Middle east?
There was a recent genetic study of a population of Jews in Erfurt, Germany from 1349. Their DNA was preserved in a cemetery and compared against modern Jewish populations and other populations. The findings are pretty eye-opening about the origin of that Erfurt Jewish population.
@oblonsky Judaism is neither a "race" nor a "religion".
Not a race : original Jews were south Arabian tribes (Hemyar)
Not a religion: you dont have to believe in God to be a "Jew".
Judaism is a religion, yes. But correct belief is not a requirement to be a member of the religion. You can either be born into it of a Jewish mother or become Jewish through a properly conducted conversion. Being Jewish may have characteristics of other categories, but it is still a religion. @@user-qg5md3pe9v
Norm Finkelstein is an absolute gem and legend
If you are a superficial person needing to hear only what you are seeking to hear. Not only is he clearly unable to provide an unbiased perspective, he is a disrespectful and malicious character that fails to contribute to a discourse that is open and comprehensive. He fools people by providing only a compulsive repetition of the facts he has selectively gathered to support the case he has been successful in making to the audience he has discovered will flatter his weak ego and fall prey to his limited scope of understanding and morality.
How they can lie with a straight face.
Absolutely no shame or conscience whatsoever!!!!
They've been doing it for centuries.. Comes Natural to some of them now.. Sociopathic behavior
Zionist playbook: lies and hasbara
It’s the way of the jujubee
They are Zionists. It is part of their DNA.
@@thinkinsidetheboxsquarecir3303 Making the world worse with hatred and bigotry. Really adds to the intellectual discourse. You be you.
Benny Morris’s writing off the incriminating line about transfer in Herzl’s diary is nonsensical. It’s not how many sentences or words. A substantive matter. If A writes in their diary about poisoning B and making it look like suicide and that B turns up dead by poisoning, does it matter how many words were used?
Yes, it would matter.
But Finkelstein also quotes from other authors like Ben Gurion.
And there is the slogan "A Land without a People". But as Rabbani pointed out, they knew that there was a people there, the Pals.
It seems like a contradiction.
Comments overwhelmingly on the side of Norman . Good to see.
I was worried to look at the comment section, but was pleasantly surprised to see that Americans are finally starting to understand the truth
It’s not good to see
@@benoliver2826 cry is free
Shows the kind of audience that Lex is attracting. Lex forgets that woke, sellout Jews like him were not spared by the Nazis.
@@_observer_-xk7hb calling him a sellout is just being generous. I think he’s a cancer on society.
This is the way any credible debate is conducted. Everyine getting their points across, challenging and or clarifying without shouting each other down. A true and rare exchange of information, dialoging as human beings.
It's so wonderful to listen to people debate and be polite at the same time
Ilan Pappe says that the archives show that 130000 Palestinian had been expelled which is why the Arab armies entered into war with Israel.
Arab armies raped and ravaged throughout the Middle-East and North Africa long before Israel or Zionism. The idea that the Arabs went to war in 1948 because they felt so bad about the Palestinians is so utterly ridiculous it is laughable. They went to war because they believed Muslims were the master race and it was unacceptable for Jews to establish a nation among them. Islamic persecution of religious minorities is well-documented.
people have to learn about Plan Dalet. The Ethic Cleansing began way before the Arab nations attacked.
The Arab Supreme Committee (effectively the governing body of the Palestinian Arabs) forced Arabs living in Jaffa, Jerusalem, Haifa and other urban centers to leave their homes " until the Jews are exterminated " by force or persuasion. The London weekly The Economist ( October 2, 1948 ) wrote: “ Of the 62 thousand Arabs who lived in Haifa, no more than five to six thousand remained The most powerful factors (in the flight) were the declarations and appeals made by the Supreme Palestinian-Arab committee, calling on all Haifa Arabs to leave the city and warning that those who remained in Haifa under Jewish rule would be considered traitors " [11] .
Arab leaders and the Arab Liberation Army urged urban and rural Arab populations to evacuate to facilitate the success of the Arab attack and then take over the homes of the Jews.
Abu Mazen (Filastin A-Thawra, March 1976 ) wrote: “ The Arab armies forced the Palestinians to leave their homes ” [11] .
Khaled al Azam, Syrian Prime Minister (memoirs, 1973): “ We brought refugees to disaster by asking them to leave their homes ” [11] .
Jordanian daily Palestine (February 19, 1949): “ The Arab states... incited the Palestinians to temporarily leave their homes so as not to interfere with the invasion of Arab armies ” [11] .
Al-Ayyam daily (May 13, 2008): “ The Arab Liberation Army told the Palestinians: “Leave your homes and villages and you will return in a few days.” If you leave them, then we can complete our mission...” [ 11] .
The writer Salah Jubran described the events in Haifa at that time (1962): “ The Arab high command asked the population to leave the country for two weeks so as not to interfere with military operations. They told us: “The guns do not distinguish whether the people in front of them are Arabs or Jews. Leave the country for a few weeks and you will come back victorious...” I heard the loudspeaker of the Haganah calling on the Arabs to stay and live in peace with their Jewish brothers. The late mayor of Haifa also asked the population to return to our homes. The Histadrut , our trade union, distributed leaflets calling on the Arabs to return. I still have this leaflet " [8]
Pappe famous lier
@@AmbassadorOfLogicIsraeli bot
Finkelstein’s read everything and can destroy anyone, like he did here.
You must be a bot
He is the same asshole who said he has no sympathy for the victims of Charlie Hebdo? Correct?
@@m.j.e.5245 you too
@@m.j.e.5245 you too..
He didn't. He failed miserable. You are propoganda bot.
Norm showing him his utter hypocrisy.
lol moris guy is like you shouldn't bother reading my books just read others things. That's because he realized mr fenkenstain was quoting he contradict stands from what he wrote in the book with what he's say today.. Double standard at its best. Fenkentain is so intellectual and smart.
The evidence suggests Morris is volunteering inaccurate historical details. I rest my case.
Such as?
Hey they are fabricating a story a 2 year old can pull apart
@@olegwiththeknowledge1729 I suspect you didn't absorb much knowledge over 5hours of intriguing debate.
@@carmelobazzano5703 Mr Marzziano your irony is that of a young child, what are the inacuracies?
Love how the dudes on the left don't know Destiny's name and keep forgetting it .
Destiny deserves nothing but contempt
Exactly 💯 he's a gusano.
Who is this Destiny guy? Sounds like some second rate RnB singer
@@adnans8778
Destiny is a streamer , talks politics while playing video games.
Very unserious little boy.
He is so outta place here.
@@yaserthe1 Destiny is there for the entertainment and not to be taken seriously. Lex did that deliberately.
This discussion is like an broken shopping cart with that one wheel turning & spinning in all directions. You all can take a guess who I mean with broken wheel.
Thank you for doing the heavy lifting here, Lex. I've never seen this vulnerable side of Norm. Morris is in a tight spot: he's one of Israel's most important historians, the pioneer of academic critical study of Zionism, debating the meaning of his life's work with the popular pre-eminent scholar on that topic. And this debate takes place during the most deadly and divisive point in the history of Zionism.
Morris' research, starkly detailing the declared and latent intentions and organization of a Jewish-supremacist state, was at first condemned by his colleagues as anti-Semitic. Morris maintains to this day that Israelis don't need to like their origin story, but they better be honest about it if they expect their country to survive into the future.
In the midst of the genocide in Gaza, Morris seems to be having a rough go in at least one recent public lecture. He responded to a heckler calling him a racist for supporting Israel with something like "I'd rather be a racist than a hypocrite."
Morris seems to have recruited himself as part of the Hasbara offensive against USA public opinion. In this debate, he wants to publicly criticize anti-Zionists like Norm who quote his work as mistaken or dishonest. Morris believes his reaearch demonstrates Israel's right to exist and defend itself by any means necessary.
Norm may have his page references mixed up but he does advise Morris that he knows the context of his body of work. Morris reacts to Norm's quote about Ben-Gurion's idea of Palestinian transfer by:
>disputing the page numbers
>claiming that transfer was never a Zionist precept
>blaming the Nakbqa on Arabs
>conceding that the generation who actually founded Israel would've understood transfer as minimally necessary for a Jewish-majority state >claiming Norm has half the quote wrong
>conceding Norm's correct half.
All the while, Morris' demeanor is dismissive. He comes off like Norm is a benign pest and this debate is no risk to either his rel or to Hasbara.
Before I saw this clip, I knew two flavours of Finklestein: the patient and thorough panelist who defers to other academics and commenters and the strategically combative sound-biting guest on cable news shows. Today I met another Finkelstein: Detective Columbostein. We watch him goof up the pages and get wonky with scholarly rigour, all of which draws Morris into recognizing that resistance is futile.
Morris could have just copped to the quote and affirmed that, yes, practical Zionist always wanted Arabs removed, the more the better, because that was the whole point. Morris might say this in private today but I bet he said it loud ans clear before October 7th. If Morris says out loud that Norm Finkelstein is correct to quote him about the racist and imperialist foundations of Israel then he's committed another humiliation of Zionism on a global scale.
Just as Biden, Trudeau and almost every wealthly country will support the genocide in Gaza for as long as Israel needs to re-establish itself as invincible, so too will Benny Morris claim that his naked truth of Israel was never about Jewish supremacy.
Dude Dr. FINKELSTEIN was only stating fact. What are you talkung about. How many times did Dr. Finkelstein have to correct these people just beyond ridicoulus. The old guy tried tp put off the blame for the BS that he wrote back then
Blame the british for this mess!It will never go away!
SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe.
The Star of David, Crucifix & The Crescent, Are Found In Hinduism.
Vedas [Hindu Bible] Mentions Adam, Abraham, Moses, Noah & Muhammad, Within Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Hinduism.
Adam Was Swayambhu Manu (4000BC),
Cain Was Indra (3200BC),
Noah Was Vaivaswat Manu (3000BC),
Abraham Was Rama (2100BC)
Moses Was Krishna (1500BC),
Mahamada Was Muhammad,
Origins in the Indus Valley.
Hinduism Vedas = Monotheism
Guru Books = Trinity & Polytheism.
Hinduism Was The Largest Monotheistic Religion In Ancient Times, But When They Added The Trinity And Polytheism, The Religion Declined.
Whenever A Scripture Becomes Corrupted, Then God Almighty Sends A Update [Similar To Windows Or Apple IOS].
Vedas [Corrupted - Mixed Falsehood With Truth]
Avesta [Corrupted - Mixed Falsehood With Truth]
Cannon [Corrupted - Mixed Falsehood With Truth]
Book Of Enoch [Corrupted - Mixed Falsehood With Truth]
Psalms [Corrupted - Mixed Falsehood With Truth]
Torah [Corrupted - Mixed Falsehood With Truth]
Quran [Final Update - Gods Sealed With White Magic].
Any Verse Within The Above Scriptures Before The Quran, Have Some Authentic Verses And Some Corrupted, Apply Logic:
See God's Pattern:
Torah [Old Testament]:
Eye For An Eye, Tooth For A Tooth [A Life For A Life].
Gospel [New Testament]:
Turn The Other Cheek [Full Pardon].
Quran [Last Testament]:
Blood Money [Compensation].
The Jewish Tefillin [Prayer Leather Box] With The Seven Straps Around The Arms, Relates To The Seven Circumambulation Around The Kaaba.
The Word Tefillin Derives From Tawaf, Circumambulation Around The Kaaba.
Adam & Eve Were Sent Down Separately, They Both Meet Up In The Valley Of Becca [Now Mecca].
They Witnessed The First Human Period Rain, Which Becomes The Zam Zam [Named By Hagar In Egyptian - Stop Flowing] Well.
Then God Sends An Asteroid From The Heavens, Which Lands, Which Is Later Placed On The Corner Of The Kaaba [First Temple].
The Kaaba Akin To King Solomon's Temple, As Been Destroyed And Rebuilt.
Psalms 84 [Books Of David]:
Blessed are those whose strength is in you,
who have set their hearts on pilgrimage [Hajj].
As they pass through the Valley of Baca [Now Mecca],
they make it a place of springs;
the autumn rains also cover it with pools.
They go from strength to strength,
till each appears before God..
Quran [Last Testament]:
95. Say: "(God) speaketh the Truth: follow the religion of Abraham, the same in faith; he was not of the Pagans."
96. The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings:
97. In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to God,- those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, God stands not in need of any of His creatures.
Let The World Open Their Eyes, From Adam & Eve To All The Scriptures Sent By God Almighty Alone, The Jealous God With No Partners, Unite Mankind We Are One With The Same One God, Without The Any Form Of Trinity, Kinship Or Partners.
Pure Monotheistic Hinduism Is ISLaM, Pure Monotheistic Zoroastrian Is ISLaM, Pure Monotheistic Buddhism Is ISLaM, Pure Judaism Is ISLaM, Pure Monotheistic Christianity Is ISLaM, Pure ISLaM Is The Path Of Abraham The Friend Of God & Noah The Great Servant Of God.
THANKs
the problem started when the Romans turned up
well and the rest of the world too- they supported this many because they didn't want a bunch of Jewish refugees. Sad but true. Between guilt and "racism" though Jewish is a religion not a race. THAT was a Nazi invention.
@@robertmangan6501 nope the problem started in the 1900 were european jews decided to do massive emigration and steals others land
Google Theodor Herzl
Those who returned were not Jews but Anglo Saxons with a Jewish flavor.
Wdym EXACTLY?
Slavs, Germanic and Vikings
European khazars
@@houdiniwho Vikings? Lol
@@mazharul khazars is fake. All historians and lingwists considere it fake.
I love Benny Morris so much that I am willing to listen to Norman Finkelstein...
The college drop out destiny is new to the topic compared to the professionals with decades of study.
11:28 min
I love Norman Finkelstein smiling and shaking his head about the lies that Arab population attacked first and hence were forcibly removed.
The funny thing is that the jwish set tlers attacked the British first as a way to thank them for the Balfour declaration 😂
He is smiling and shaking his head because of his over-inflated ego and his need to compensate for his incapacity to acknowledge the distortions in his thinking and limitations in his grasp of morality. Kudos to Benny and Destiny for holding up so well against the weak and transparently weak perspectives of fink and his partner in pushing their self-serving and biased report of history.
@@wolfpal11AHAHAHAHA
Benny does a lot of filibustering. When he hears the others start to make a good point he interrupts and rambles somewhat hoping to divert the conversation.
It’s quite a good tactic.
He is truly shameless. When he's caught out he just nods like a Nazi who's plans for the Holocaust have just been caught out to his face
Yes, when he does that it's like hearing a giant f/ art breaking out
If you’ve ever had to discuss with a diagnosed narcissist that’s basically how it goes. They just interrupt, talk fast, behave aggressive/disrespectful because they can’t converse properly and need you to lose your temper so they can then make your response the focus.
Correct
yes, he was working up a sweat the entire time.
Norman Finkelstein Thank you for sharing the truth. I’ve read much of your bk, Imagine & Reality of the Israeli-Palestine Conflict & appreciate it.
Norman is not only intellectual but honest, decent ,human being first.
Destiny taking notes like he has any business in this conversation. Stick to No Jumper with Crip Mac
Im sure destiny allows he's wife to sleep with other men
😂😂😂
The way Ben Morris telling us the story I am 200% sure any nazi historian might have described their history in the exact same way😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
" The first time the phrase “human animal” was recorded in history was by himmaliar, in The Posen speech to SS officers (6 October 1943) - On the 7th, it is crucial to understand that there were no direct attacks on civilians, only collateral damage. Out of the 1148 total names on haaret dataset, 473 military and 675 were civilians.
Ratio of civilians to military personnel killed on the 7th was 1 . 4 : 1 - lower than any of the iTf "mowing" operations, which has a ratio of 7 : 1
According to UN OCHA data from 2008 to 2022; The collateral damage on the 7th was significantly lower than any of the ITf "mowing" operations, which had a ratio of 7:1 with 1,023 military personnel out of 6,541 total. On the 7th, with 473 military (418 were iTf military personnel, 55 belonged to the police) out of 1148 total, the ratio of civilians to military personnel was a mere 1.4:1
When including all casualties, not just deaths, the collateral damage ratio of the "mowing" operations is a staggering 162:1
From the 161,233 accumulated civilian casualties over only 14 years of "mowing" operations.
A 162 :1 ratio means that for every 162 civillians, 1 military personnel is a casualty. The 7th had a ratio of 1.4:1, more than a hundred times lower.
The 473 are - 55 soldiers, 13 privates, 59 corporals, 200 sergeants (45 of whom were sergeant majors), 48 commanders, 32 lieutenants, 5 lieutenant colonels, 6 colonels, 37 officers, 10 inspectors, 6 intendents, and 2 Lance Corp. This was a military defeat, and they are taking it out on the rest.
The reported ages of the victims are as follows:
0-4: 2 civilians
5-12: 8 civilians
13-17: 14 civilians
18-25: 132 civilians
26-40: 119 civilians
41-60: 55 civilians
61+: 40 civilians
Active duty military personnel:
18-25: 258 active duty military personnel
26-40: 60 active duty military personnel
41-60: 17 active duty military personnel
61+: 1 active duty military personnel
haaretz datasheet titled title: xsraxl's Dead: The Names of Those Killed in Hxmxs Attacks, Mxssxcres and the xsrxel-Hxmxs Wxr
There is a more detailed report of of oct 7th titled "I scrapped the information about 1096 of the 1460 killed on 7th of October Attack. Children Less than 1%"
-Yocheved Lifshitz account - 'they treated us well'
-Yasmin Porat account - 'i.T.f kxilled my husband'
Civilians were taken to have swaps for the civilians rotting in prisons without charge on the other side. An excess of ten thousands, all before the seventh
UN Human Rights Office (UN OCHA) PA Civilians 2008-2023:
2008 - 2,325 Wounded Civilians, Deaths 1,440.
2012 - 3,992 Wounded Civilians, Deaths 255.
2014 - 17,533 Wounded Civilians, Deaths 1,492.
2018 - 31,259 Wounded Civilians, Deaths 300.
2019 - 15,491 Wounded Civilians, Deaths 138.
2020 - 2,581 Wounded Civilians, Deaths 30.
2021 - 19,183 Wounded Civilians, Deaths 349.
2022 - 10,345 Wounded Civilians, Deaths 191.
2023 up to September - 8,508 Wounded Civilians, Deaths 227.
civilian deaths on the other side -
2008: 3 , 2012: 6 , 2014: 73 , 2018: 9
2019: 10 , 2020: 0 , 2021: 9 , 2022: 26
Total; 2008 up to September 2023 - 161,233 PA Civilian Casualties, 1,023 military personnel.
Wounded includes: amputees from the deliberate targeting of knees by snipers, white phosphorous third degree body burns, etc
The "Costs of War" study by brown in 2021 has these figures for the past 20 years of engagement of US policy: indirect deaths 4.5-4.7 million, direct 905-940,000 ; in other words 6 Million Deaths and 38 million displaced. This is relevant because of the Yinon Plan.
Totally!!!!! :D
@@mznxbcv12345Thank you for taking the time to share this information, one question though, in media reporting I have seen the number 36 for "child deaths", I think your total is 24, can you explain the difference?
@@mznxbcv12345thank you for this
they counted Arabs as well living there, most likey the result of hanubuaal
Wasn’t transfer always on the agenda ? Didn’t Ben Gurion famously state regarding the legal acquisition of land “one more acre one more goat”?
Land purchased with the Jewish national fund ( the blue money boxes in every Jewish kitchen) required the expulsion of the Arab population from that land; that is to say , they were not allowed to stay on as farmers? Am I incorrect? Thanks for your time
Ding ding ding you got it 🎯
I would love to hear this whole discussion…
Why is “destiny” even there didn’t contribute anything at all, they all three outclassed him with knowledge of the topic
Got paid to influence the youngsters?
It's always great to here his recycled Wikipedia view's against 3 people that have 120 years worth of knowledge on the subject.
Was thinking the same thing . As Finkelstein said "your a fantastic moron "
@@markbell7658but his alleged HOURS of research according to his die hards puts him on par with the worlds top international legal scholars and judges at the ICJ, every journalist who has covered the topic for decades, and really the best political scientist and the best historian on the topic- he’s so amazing that he even KNOWS what his opponents are gonna say because he’s watched them on UA-cam for HOURS! So that uncivil meanie Finkelstein can eat crow for calling him an idiot, because he’s obviously a genius and doing this for zero clout unlike that nasty Finkelstein who we all know as destiny implies, has been living the high life off the conflict and is happy to keep it going. Nope thank god we have reditt’s top debater here to let us all know what’s up and how to move forward
Just a reality check for you, Norm and the others aren't more knowledgeable simply because they're old, lame and less famous. To someone who isn't biased about the issue, Norm seems wildly uninformed, inconsistent and mercurial, how anyone thinks he did better than Destiny is just pure cope. Norm is a mental midget and if you can't see that then you just have a biased POV.
Miko Peled should’ve been in this discussion... he would have destroyed Benny Morris with the discoveries he found.
No, he would have shouted and yelled over everyone - the only possible benefit being that the 'professor' might have woken up.
most likely, he would have walked out, which is what he does anytime his ridiculous conspiracy theories are challenged
He doesn't debate people because he knows he's a fraud.
Miko will destroy all your Zionist narratives with only a few words.
Miko Peled's book - The General's Son.
Hasbara! Trolls... 😆
Protect Norm at all costs! His one of the few honorable intellectuals of our times.
Why were ratios changed?
Benny Morris intellectual dishonesty is no match to Finkelstein integrity and scholarship.
You are definitely delusional.
🙄
What did he say that was intellectually dishonest
@goldenmosquito4093.. in his own words while he cites heinous crimes of rape and massacres committed by the Israeli military in 1948 against Palestinians, he justifies ethnic cleansing of them. "There is no justification for acts of rape. There is no justification for acts of massacre. Those are war crimes. But in certain conditions, expulsion is not a war crime. I don't think that the expulsions of 1948 were war crimes"
Norm is the same asshole who said he had no sympathy for the victims of Charlie Hebdo? Correct?
Read "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" by Ilan Pappe.
Hhhh Ilan Pappe gets money from the Qatari government.
A book rejected by even pro pal scholars for being factually in correct cool!😊
@@rap1897 Invading zionists, according to Israeli author Shlomo Sand in his book "The invention of the Jewish people are jewish converts alien to palestine. In the 8th century ad the Khazar kingdom in ukraine converted to judaism and would go on to make the ashkenazi jewish population in europe. Yemenis converted to judaism during the yemeni kindom o Himyar in the 5th century ad during the rule of Dul Nawas. There were jewish kingdoms in iraq and north africa as well. The palestinians are the eternal natives of the land. Free Palestine.
@@rap1897 Ben Gurion called palestinians the original Israelites and Judeans in his book "Eretz Israel" that he coauthored as he was surveying palestine for Zionist colonization. He believed correctly that the original jews were the palestinians. Only after palestinian refusal to be part of a zionist jewish supremacist state did the narrative change, and ethnic cleansing of 1948 commence. Mind you 50% of palestinians were expelled BEFORE the war started. Zionist propaganda musg be countered with truth.
@@rap1897 Ashkenazi maternal line is European and that only 3% of Ashkenazi DNA shows links with the Eastern Mediterranean/Middle East, a 'minuscule' amount comparable to the proportion of Neanderthal genes in modern European populations. For Elhaik, the vehicle by which unique Asiatic variations on Ashkenazi Y-chromosomes occurred, with Haplogroup Q-L275,[103] was the Ashina ruling clan of the Göktürks, who converted to Judaism and established the Khazar empire.[104]
Thank-you Norman Finklestein
Nobody can match Finkelstein’s knowledge on this topic
The man is simply using facts and logic
Truth is not always pretty, but we just need to learn to accept it
Just a part of history. Hazrat Umer Khitab(RA), when he conquered this part of the world was horrified to find no Jews. They were all killed or expelled by Christians. He brought forty Jewish families to look after their holy sites.
There were good Muslim leaders and there were horrible ones
The forefathers of Zionism believed that there was little to no room for a foreign component within the “Zionist project”, but we’re encouraged to disregard that point, and instead focus on the fact that it was a fabrication of the Arab leaders’ delusion that it existed.
Prominent Israeli leaders today speak of annihilating Palestinians writ large, but we’re supposed to ignore the few statements that were “taken out of context” and focus on Oct07 in a vacuum.
It’s this sort of trend that connects history and allows for reasonable conclusions, regarding intent, to be drawn.
Well said. The entire project, from inception to present day propaganda, is the penultimate example of cognitive dissonance.
Lex basically saying: "We don't need to hold Benny to what he has actually put in writing in his published books, let's allow him to shift it to the argument he needs to make today to look like he has any credibility." Seriously, are you kidding me? What he has written for decades as to what was intrinsic to the Zionist ideology absolutely matters. He must be consistent in his claims. Mr. Finklestein is correct in continuing to point out and insist Benny Morris be consistent with the books HE WROTE on the topic. Lex isn't the worst I've seen as far as being a impartial moderator on discussions of Zionism and Palestine, but he certainly is letting his own bias show when he does shit like that.
The moderator is a complete failure here
Thank you, Dr. Finklestein, for trying to bring peace to the world. Thank you to all for trying to bring peace to the world.
refreshing to see people expose their point in a respectful way without shouting over eachothers
How does Benny Morris listen to his own quote multiple times and still try to deny the thesis of the quote. It’s honestly impressive how he can deny his own words so blatantly
?
Wouldn’t you have thought that the original writer would have a better understanding of the original meaning? Maybe Fink is just mistaken 😮
How can finkelstien keep being told what the quote actually meant and still try to use it as an argument
@@goldenmosquito4093 Still can't explain why expulsion was "inevitable and inbuilt" in Zionism. He's just denying what he wrote.
@@danablack1490 yes the expulsion of the Arabs living on the lands the Jews bought.
Forced expulsion is because of the war have you not seen the video?
I love it, Prof Filkelstein says “…your name please…”as in I don’t even know wtf you are, youngster!😂
yes, so telling of his lack of respect and sense of grandiosity.
@@wolfpal11 why should he respect clown?
@@UnnamedLexicon
Don’t insult clowns.
@@wolfpal11 You respect people that deserve it. Destiny didn't.
Simple.
Everybody listening to this should take a step back and think about the degree of hairsplitting and straw grasping that is taking place here by Benny Morris. Let's, for one second, look at the big picture. We have a movement that explicitly described itself as a colonial project by its founders. It was explicitly a project for people of a particular religion from different parts of the world to colonize a land that was inhabited by other people. This movement - just like every settler colonial movement in history - resulted in war with the indigenous inhabitants and eventually, in their mass displacement and ethnic REPLACEMENT from that land. This is fact and no one disputes it - not even Benny Morris. Yet, to sugarcoat this fact, we just saw a 30 minute discussion where Morris is trying to argue that this was the one settler colonial movement that displaced the population unwillingly. To believe what Morris is saying here is to believe that a settler colonial project that explicitly wanted to establish a Jewish majority in a land that was majority non-Jewish and, thereby, NEEDED to expel large swaths of the existing population in order to realize its own explicit purpose had no intention of committing ethnic cleansing but just happened to do so through no fault of its own. Please take the time to realize how RIDICULOUS this argument and this entire exchange is.
How is it possible that you listened to this podcast and still don't understand anything about 1948 or Zionism. The Arabs were the aggressors. The Nakba was preceded by 7 Arab armies attacking Israel. The neighboring Arab countries were preparing for an invasion before a single Palestinian Arab was displaced from their home.
In the months leading up to the 1947 Partition Vote in the United Nations, Azzam Pasha, the General Secretary of the Arab League, threatened: “Personally I hope the Jews do not force us into this war because it will be a dangerous massacre which history will record similarly to the Mongol massacre or the wars of the Crusades…We will sweep [the Jews] into the sea.”
The early Zionist immigrants did not come to Palestine bearing arms. It was only after 18-year-old Moshe Barsky was murdered in 1913 that they began forming self-defense units to guard the kibbutzim. The Jewish paramilitaries - the Haganah, the Irgun, and Lehi - were not formed until after the Arab massacres of Jews in the 1920s, when the British officers failed to protect the Jewish community from violence.
Jewish land purchases in Palestine during the British Mandate were perfectly legal. About 52.6 percent of the lands were purchased from absentee Arab landowners from elsewhere in the Arab world; 24.6 percent from wealthy Palestinian landowners; 13.4 percent from the government, churches, or foreign companies; and only 9.4 percent from Palestinian fellaheen (farmers, peasants).
Before the Arab antisemitic pogroms of the 1920s and 1930s, the future first prime minister of Israel and longtime head of the Jewish Agency for Palestine, David Ben Gurion, made statements such as “we do not intend to marginalize the Arabs, or to displace them from their lands and take their place”
Jews are indigenous to Judea (hence the name). Jews are the only people who ever created a nation state there. At all other times in the past 3,000 years it was merely an administrative district in an empire whose center was elsewhere: the Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Alexandrian, Roman and Byzantine empires, the Crusaders of the Holy Roman Empire, the various Muslim empires such as the Umayyads, Abbasids, Fatimids, Mamluks and Ottomans, and finally the British. Jews are the only people who have maintained a continuous presence in the land. They are its indigenous, original inhabitants.
My deepest respect to Prof. Finkelstein
The ethnic cleansing also started months before anything like a “war” began. Certainly before outside Arab armies, even in their very limited way, got involved.
the ethnic clesnsing started in 1929 with the hebron and safed massacre and banishment of hebron,nablus and jericho jews,continued in 1938 with tiberia massacre and banishment of pekiein and silwan jews.
Le journal de Herzl mentionne une lettre qu’il a envoyée à Cecil Rhodes en 1902, un homme d’affaires britannique et l’un des colonialistes les plus célèbres de son époque.
Cecil Rhodes était le fondateur de la société minière De Beers qui a pris le contrôle de l’extraction des diamants sud-africains. L’exploitation du travail dans les mines de De Beers était telle que les conditions de travail y étaient dangereuses.
Dans sa lettre, Herzl écrit à Rhodes: «Nous vous invitons à contribuer à l’histoire. Non pas à celle de l’Afrique, mais à celle d’un morceau de l’Asie Mineure; cette histoire ne concerne pas des Anglais, mais des Juifs… Comment se fait-il que je me tourne vers vous, puisque cette question ne vous concerne pas? Pourquoi? Parce qu’il s’agit d’une affaire coloniale.»
"Nobody knows your work better than me, but I can't remember if it was 4 pages or a few lines. It was 40 years ago, " lololol
Maybe stick to comics
@@Samaa-os7hx or peppa pig
Finkelstein is a monster. He's read everything you've written and every interview you've given and he's prepared to quote you.
Now seeking knowledge is a monster,
@@tencentkoplak4692 his knowledge is inescapable. That is what makes him a monster. I wish him more power.
Oh wash out your mouth, monster indeed. He is the most knowledgeable man on the history, he does not need to be prepared for fools that has no real knowledge of history.
I have the upmost respect for Norman Finkelstein.
While that’s great, I’m not getting the impression he’s doing a great job quoting and debating Morris in this clip at least
Lex clearly not experienced in moderating serious and important debates.
Mr. Borelli is really out of his league here, and it really shows in his fast talking Wikipedia reading.
"Your name please?" hahahaha
They're basically like who are you again?
The amount of times that Morris interrupts is so telling
Usually people interrupt when something said is misrepresented so they make corrections and in this case Benny was correcting his quotes
Lex also told him to ask him directly what he meant as the author was sitting across the table.
I try and listen to both sides without biases as best as I can since I'm uneducated in the matter yet discussion like this will pull me in one direction or the other.
That bieng said I'm watching the video myself and making decisions myself based on topics brought up while also reading comments from both sides and when I see comments like this I think that it's lazy to focus on the interruptions and not why their interrupting.
I say this because I'm not the only one trying to make sense of this and it would help both sides to put biases aside and communicate in good faith.
@@edgarguerra8242 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
The sad thing is the more i read and listen to this the more i lean towards Israel at least not being completely wrong. The vast majority of people on the Palestine side mostly seem to not use their brains and just want to riot against something even though there are very solid arguments if not for anything else than definitely for the current insurgence to stop.
You understand that they were quoting from his own book and instead of asking him `What did you mean by that?` - let the the guy explain since his the fucking person the wrote the fucking quote, they were insinuating that him the author meant something else with his words, so that their interpretation(though mostly only NF) of what Benny wrote is more correct that what the actual author of the text thought, this is the epitome of self importance. Yes, in these circumstance it is perfectly reasonable for the actual fucking author to interrupt and correct the person interpreting his words in a different way, becouse it was him the wrote the actual text.
@@lasttone10 🧢
@@ShemzinhoAllah and Mohammed the best😂
Keep in mind, Morris is the only historian here who has studied this. The rest have read his work and are discussing his work and other related literature, but he's the ultimate authority in terms of conducting the research directly.
Very interesting and informative, Thank you ...
That thing called Destiny just uploaded a video of himself commentating on this... for 6 hours.. Is this what his twitch audience would refer to as "copium" response?
same breed as Hassan Abi with victorious claim on the debate stamped on their youtube videos' title.
"I'm gonna cover a Long discussion I was in after the fact, so I can look better to my audience."
Thank you Prof. For your professional work and fight for Justice
SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe.
1. The British Colonists Created The Caste System, For Their Divide & Rule Policies.
2. They Also Created Sikhism To Divide & Rule Hinduism & Islam.
3. The Greek philosopher Pythagoras is considered the father of ethical vegetarianism. The Pythagorean way of life was followed by a number of important personalities and influenced vegetarian nutrition until the 19th century.
The exact beginning of idol worship as known in current Hinduism is unknown. It could actually be quite recent (Recent like around 500 BC. ). During the period of the Indus Valley civilization, there many statues and idol like objects found.
Historians have shown that at the time of the oldest Hindu sacred text, the Rig Veda (dated to the second millennium B.C.), cow meat was consumed by Indians. Over time, particularly from the fourth century B.C., vegetarianism began to spread among India's Buddhists, Jains and some Hindus.
Archaeological evidence from the islands of the Aegean Sea have yielded Neolithic era Cycladic figures from 4th and 3rd millennium BC, idols in namaste posture from Indus Valley civilization sites from the 3rd millennium BC, and much older petroglyphs around the world show humans began producing sophisticated images.
4. Many Verses Within The Vedas, Avesta, Cannon, Psalms, Torah & Gospel, Still Have Authentic Verses.
5. The Corrupted Verses From These Scriptures Sent, Are All The Double Dutch Verses, Which Contradict The Nature Of God.
6. All These Scriptures Testify God Being One.
7. All Later Verses With A Trinity Were Added, Some With Multiple Marvel Like Gods [Hinduism].
8. The Noah Family:
Vedas:
There Is Only One God,
There Is Only One Source,
There Is Only One Supply.
Avesta Zoroastrian:
There Is Only One Wise God,
Whom Is Uncreated.
Buddhist Cannon:
There Is Only One God,
Whom Created Good & Evil.
9. The Abraham Family:
Torah [Old Testament]:
The LORD is our God, the LORD is one.
Gospel [New Testament]:
I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me.
Quran [Last Testament]:
Say He Is God, The One, The Absolute,
He Begets Not, Nor Is He Begotten,
There Is None Comparable Unto God.
Great talk… why is it cut short 😭
The 5 hour version is also available.
Bc they are clips, as stated in the title/video
Lex CLIPS.
Any ideas on what Morris is missing out here on 1947-49?
Some issues that could be expanded on
1. Nakba was not planned
2 Transfer was a natural consequence of war
3 Nakba and Oct 7 are the consequence of Arab aggression
4 Human rights groups are irrelevant
5 Israel's legal obligations under international law
6 Stealing of Palestinian land
7 Annexation of land
8 Right of return