Destiny vs Mouin Rabbani: Why Palestinians rejected partition plan | Israel-Palestine Debate
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- Опубліковано 15 бер 2024
- Lex Fridman Podcast full episode: • Israel-Palestine Debat...
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GUEST BIO:
Norman Finkelstein and Benny Morris are historians. Mouin Rabbani is a Middle East analyst. Steven Bonnell (aka Destiny) is a political livestreamer.
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Guest bio: Norman Finkelstein and Benny Morris are historians. Mouin Rabbani is a Middle East analyst. Steven Bonnell (aka Destiny) is a political livestreamer.
destiny loves to talk about how others shouldn’t have a platform (anyone with opposing views) on his other streams but anyone could say back to him that he is a right wing masquerading himself as a gamer / streamer to spread propaganda and misinformation
@@itsamyxoxx Who does he say shouldn't have a platform? .. lol What's with these baseless lies? I also don't understand the folks complaining about the way he researches on stream. He literally shows the audience what he's looking at and getting his information from and debates anyone on either side that wants to join his stream. How is that bad? .. lol By the way the way Norm treated his hispanic neighbors would suggest he might have some right wing in him!
Zionism is for cranks.
@@mofishin2648 on his streams
An attempt was made😕😒
what a stupid question!!!
if someone breaks in to my house and says you keep the bathroom, I'll have the other rooms, why would I fuckin accept that?!!!
Because he was the previous owner of the house before the next owner kicked him out. You kicked out the the new owner after that. Also he rather got in the bathroom first and asked you, at least, to let him officially have the bathroom. But you stormed the bathroom, (you and your other friends that don't even own the house) and got your shit kicked in, so he only let you keep the cellar and the bathroom instead. When you attacked again and got clapped again, he told you, you can sleep in the bathroom and the cellar, but he owned it now for real, and also you are not allowed to use the toilet anymore. Right or no, that is their argument.
What if they bought the land next to you leagaly. And your just mad becaues you miss your view of nothing and now there is a thriving nationso you throw rocks at their windows every night.
Because he can smash you as he is doing now
The previous owner is a srs stretch when it's their distant "alleged" ancestors 3000 years ago lmao @@dukaduka506
@dukaduka506 you go back far enough and we're apes hitting each other so what
I also wouod reject the partition plan, if my home was invaded and i only granted my backyard.
are you talking about the arab conquest?
Yeah, give it back to the Ottoman Empire, it was their home! Oh wait....
no shes not, because it was conquered from those who took it from others@@geoms6263
In retrospect, they should’ve taken the deal. They lost the wars. But now they’re a stateless people.
@@Sunday_SwaggerThat’s what I’ve been saying for years! Every subsequent generation of Israelis are going to be more defensive and prejudiced against Palestinians and likewise every new generation of Palestinians suffering through this trauma are going to be prejudiced against Israelis. It won’t be long before each side are going to forget why they’re fighting each other.
Why was the onus on Palestinians to accept a resolution led by colonial powers that still had colonies ? I’m confused
Because Muslim Arabs have been persecuting Jews and colonising the lands for 1400 years
Because they hold all the negotiating power? You can grandstand about the morality and what aught to be as much as you like, or you can confront the truth of the situation, they lost and Palestine needs to accept it and make the best out of the situation it can or nothing will change and they will continue to suffer
That's actually a good point. Despite the fact that the Jewish population was only around 30% in 1947 for the UN partition plan, they wanted to divide the territory and give the Jews ~55% of the land, albeit desolate land that was mostly desert and had no one living in it. The Non-Jewish Palestinians had no real reason to accept the plan, although in hind sight they rejected this plan and every following plan, and now they have no state of their own. So I guess hindsight is 20-20, maybe accepting some land was better than accepting no land.
Are you serious? The nature of being a "colonial power" means they hold extensive power internally and externally. This is like asking why would native Americans negotiate with Europeans from the new world? Before ANYONE can make any progress they must first understand their geopolitical position and what is expected and what they were capable of
Ask the league of nations after the ottomans lost in ww1 they shared mandates of the former empire occupied territories to the super powers back then...also why arabs never wanted a country and rebeled against the ottomans?
I am happy to hear a fiery debate between 3 gentlemen and a black woman. Very brave.
I watched the video twice but I don't see any black women🤔
@@geoms6263 im guessing its a joke of how destiny says you can identify is whatever you want
@@zachmoyer1849 you can just doesnt mean anyone has to agree or acknowledge it.
There was definitely a debate between 3 gentlemen. 😅
What I see is 2 somebodies in a room with 3 literally who jackasses whining about something that should have been taken care of years ago. And by taken care of I mean glassing the middle east from high orbit.
Palestinians are genetically proven to descend from Jews who converted to Christianity and Islam, because there's no difference between Palestinians and Middle Eastern Jews in gene studies: Jews are not a distinct race. Palestinians speak Arabic but they're Levantines, not Gulf Arabs. They just never left the land, unlike the diaspora Jews who went to other parts of the Middle East and Europe. Saying Palestine belongs to the Jews is like saying that in two thousand years Britain should go to the Australians. Is Britain the homeland of the Australians and should be given to them? What about Palestine being the spiritual homeland of Christianity? Palestinians are fifteen percent Christian... should African Americans be given an African country in the year 3500 AD, displacing the people who've lived there thousands of years?
When Ben Gurion the first prime minister of Israel wrote about the UN partition plan he said they would accept it in the meantime, but remained committed to taking all the land. The founding Zionists never intended on sharing and they still don't. Netanyahu announced his intention to annex Gaza and the West Bank back in 2019. The Greater Israel plan involves taking Southern Lebanon and Northern Egypt in addition to all remaining Palestinian territory. Israelis will say they expelled the 'Arabs' because they were attacking when in reality the Arab expulsion was part of the vision to get all the land.
Palestinians have been 95% of the deaths since 1948 and Israelis only 5%. That's not a war.
And there was no such thing as nation states anywhere in the world before the 1600s: ancient Israel was a kingdom, not a country, and the Israelites only dominated the other tribes for 200-250 years. People who say 'palestine wasn't a country' are using a semantics trick: like saying there were no native Americans because it wasn't called America. Palestine as a region was referred to in 500BC by a Greek historian, and again by Shakespeare.
Arab Israelis are today an underclass in their own land, they earn half on average of what Jewish Israelis do, suffer restrictions on property rights due to Jewish majority neighbourhoods, and live in fear of speaking freely.
When your identity depends on trying to disprove the identity of the indigenous people, maybe there's a problem with your identity.
From a proudly anti Zionist Jewish woman who wants to see Judaism freed from the cult of Zionism, an ideology invented by an atheist Jew who wanted to make a religion a nationality, which goes against the scriptures on multiple levels and has caused unfathomable harm.
You should have been part of this debate.
the comment that speaks louder than the 4 yelling men! thank you!
In short, the Palestinians are descendants of Shem, just like the 12 son of Israel and the 12 sons of Ishmael. Why be surprised?
Thank you , you said everything i been saying for a long time the Zionists displaced another semitic population from Palestine after they got kicked of Europe instead of holding Europeans who abused them accountable they put all the guilt and frustration on the semitic Palestinians who was minding their business in their land
Okay there chatgpt, cite your sources fruityboy
Love Mouin. A very wise elegant and legitimate speaker.
He definitely came across as the most balanced, fair and honest of the four. No disrespect to Norm who does get emotional sometimes, or Benny who is dishonest often. Intended disrespect to the bearded man child way out of his depth
@@IcarianXexcellent analysis.
@@IcarianX Thanks for being honest man, it's rare to see people not attached to these online discussions and influencers as if they are sports teams, so anytime they are involved in something their team has to do well, and fuck the other side lol.
@IcarianX rabbani was just completely bullshit. Norm lies for a living. Rabbani said October 7th was justified but israel even launching a response was unjustified even when hamas held hostages. The palestinian side need to lie to make it work. But it leaves them weaker every time. So I'm not complaining.
If you're completely propagandized. 😂
Mr. Morelli, It's so paain-ful!
We all know it's Ms. Morelli.
Hahaha that shit will stick
What about the displaced Jws from Iraq, the Levant, and North Africa.??
Over 500,000 were displaced in the mid 20th century.
Where is their homeland going to be established??
R
@@RalphEllisthat is also addressed in the full debate. Go watch.
@@RalphEllis why do you think they were expelled after the creation of Israel? Because of 3 reasons.
1. The countries that expelled them knew that they had a country to call home
2. There was an active campaign by Israel to pull in Jews from the surrounding Arab states, as stated by Schlomo Ben Ami
3. The Jews in the region supported Israel displacing thousands
The guy called it a British Democracy 😂
Destiny suggesting that western countries of the 1940's would have objected to the displacement of the indigenous population in Palestine could be the dumbest political statement I have heard from a public political commentator. Honestly and sincerely, I do not think I have heard something dumber.
It's so stupid that it borders on the miraculous.
Really?! Western countries would have objected to the displacement of indigenous people?! In the 1940s?!
Wow!
Well the point would be that the partition explicitly lays out what the make up of the country would be. Any deliberate deviation from that, outside of extraneous circumstances would be a violation of that plan. Similarly, the reason why appeasement in ww2 failed was somehwat for the same reason, in the sense that the goal was to get hitler to stop advancing and trying to conquer other countries around Germany. It wouldn't have mattered if the countries were filled with europeans or asians, or moors, the allies would not have found it acceptable and the war would have commenced all the same.
Absolutely idiotic. Destiny also claimed that the Jim Crow South is not apartheid. And also claimed that nuking the entire Gaza Strip would not be genocide.
1st of, Arab Palestinians are not indigenous to what’s today’s Israel, Jews are the original indigenous people of those lands and they are not going anywhere. Muslims arrived in present Israel with the invasion of the Ottoman Empire.
2nd, getting rid of terrorist organisations such as Hamas and the Islamic Jihad is not genocide, it’s called defending your country against Islamic terrorists. You mention to me a major war where civilians have never been killed?
That was the every day thing back then 😂
@@djwestbrook36nuking a country is definitely not a genocide my man. That’s not the definition of genocide
Calling Israel the home of the jews is like calling Germany the home of all germanic ancestors. As a Brit I have a family tree going back to the anglo saxons in c940. The idea I can set up in Saxony today and claim a historic right of return is absurd. The connection of jews to Israel/Palestine is purely a religious one. If this claim works for jews, why doesn't it work for Palestinians and all the surrounding peoples in Lebanon, Syria etc etc who are also semitic people? This is a colonial expeiment plain and simple..
There was never any such nation as Palestine, dude. Get a clue.
People who lived there for 1000s of years of ago don't have a claim to the land
People who started lived there for the past 75 years have claim to the land.
Why?
The Jewish people got kicked out by Palestinians ancestors when they made the Ottoman Empire it wasn't intill WW1 the Jewish people were able to return just to be kicked out by Hitler in WW2 and inslaved.
The Palestinian people does not exist.
The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tacti- cal reasons do we speak today about the exis- tence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can un- doubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."
3d
30
100
Zuheir Mohsen, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council
@@qwertyuiopqwerty112well the jws lived there before that land was colonised by Arabs
Mr Morelli doesn’t seem to understand the difference between a principled stand vs ideology.
Why would he though? Blaming ideology, especially Islamism is so much easier and people will not expect you to elaborate. They will follow you like a bear follows honey.
@@PelonTuskeryou aren’t the smartest and are confusing ideology with religion.
There is effectively no difference
@@roykeane1922 Just reading your 2 comments proves to me that you're the one who is clearly confused. Contradicting yourself within a minute is quite impressive 🤡
That was infuriating right? "Ideology" has negative connotations, so of course Binelli insisted on that term. "It's a matter of principle." "Yeah, that's what I said, ideology!"
"I like this answer more" and moves on ?? From potentially the single cause that unites the majority of the world behind the Palestinian cause. "I like this answer more". Borello needs to stop being a habitual contrarian with debate bro responses if he ever wants to become the original bonnell again.
It's part of his grift to frame himself as the arbiter in a debate, with the ultimate goal being presenting information he "likes".
Nobody is united in the cause of a fake people except for Mud-slimes and people on Russia's payroll.
HAHAHAHAHA , W*F ! I am in tears🤣🤣🤣
The majority of the world does not support the palestinian cause. Sorry to say. Just the majority of internet idiots.
He didn't say it here but it seems he feels, implies it was still extreme though understandable. He's often said both the Arab and Jewish positions in the 1948 war were legitimate but no that doesn't justify Arabs/Palestinians then demanding 100% of the land 30, 40, many more years later.
Who's the young guy? Is he the one that plays video games?
as a person who plays videogames and still hasnt become an idiot i apologize he dont represent us
But he has done his research extensively on the topic using Wikipedia , don't take him lightly....
I've seen him before. He's got OCD over this issue and really shouldn't be part of this conversation. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up becoming one of those extremist settlers kicking Palestinians off their land ..
@@chrismalcomson7640oh man. Imagine if he publishes a vlog “I’m settling in Haifa!! “
@@chrismalcomson7640 but he's Italian, why would he settle in greater Israel?
The issue that some will not acknowledge is that the creation of Israel was about :-
1)The West not having to face its guilt
2) The West not having to make space to accommodate refugees
3) The Western ideology of the time that, for political and racist reasons, treated the law as something to be altered in any way required when it came to indigenous people .
4) Making Israel an outpost to shield the West.
Most of which, at a government level still seems to apply today
Jews didn't want refuge in European countries. They wanted to be a thousand miles from their former persecutors. And if you think there wasn't a whole lot of soul-searching and discussion in a sense of responsibility amongst Western European nations especially Germany for the Holocaust then you haven't been paying attention to history
so accurate
Jewish people in Europe weren't interested in being refugees. Also the West has faced
The “west” blocked arms shipments to Israel in 48. The British trained the Arab armies in the Israeli War of independence. The us only recognised Israel because they didn’t want the soviets to get there first.
Stop lying
1-4 is completely false 😂😂😂. This would have happened without any Holocaust. Go read about early zionism
3 scholars and an ipad baby
2 scholars, an ipad baby and an emotional pseudo-scholar.
@@MustardSkaven found a mr bonerchelli fan
@@MustardSkavenyuck. A destiny fan.
So calling out Finkelli for being an emotion pseudo-scholar makes me a Destiny fan?
How exactly does that work out in that smooth brain of yours?@@garfieldcouch4443
@@garfieldcouch4443 Yuck, a communist!
Who is this Bonnell character and why is he there? May as well put Ben Shapiro in there too. It's interesting to see how the three grown ups in the room react to him. Mr. Rabbani is so patient with him, Mr Morris seems to want to humor him a little and is maybe a little embarrassed for him while Finkelstein seems pissed that he is there wasting everybody's time.
He's a videogame streamer that children used to enjoy. He's trying to pivot to MSNBC. 😊
Why did Lex tell norm to basically stop beating a dead horse at the end of the clip???. Did that part escape you??? Is the part where Norm Finkelstein can't understand a quote within the context of the paragraph in which it was written not clear to you?
You said all of that, and you didn't point out anything that Destiny said that was wrong. Maybe it was because you couldn't point to anything that he said that was wrong.... could that be it???
@@robertcampomizzi7988because he didn't say much at all. He spent most of his time creating strawman arguments. Why are you so emmotional about this? It's as if my criticism of Bonnell is a personal affront to you
@itsnotme61 you speak of strawman and then call me emotional? 🤣 every accusation is a confession considering you still didn't say what was inaccurate on Destiny's part nor did you address Lex's need to moderate Norm's obstinate obsession. How many times did Benny Morris correct Destiny? 🤔 view this objectively, just try.
@@itsnotme61 You don't know the mean of a strawman argument.
When talking fast still isn't enough to justify genocide. 😂
No genocide
@@eschurthere is indeed a genocide
@@mahyargharehdaghi9383 false. 🧢
@@eschurisreal is saying they will kill them all and you are trying to cover it up
@mahyargharehdaghi9383 cite a single source of palestinian casualties that doesnt come from hamas. Ill wait.
It think Lex was a bit biased protecting Prof. morris. He couldn’t allow Prof. Finklestein to beat him over the head with his own literature. It was written with a specific aim and state of mind.
Finkelstein was making a fool out of himself when he kept reading Morris’ own literature back to him while obviously taking it completely out of context.
Finkelstein merely was establishing the fact that it was part of the Zionist ideology that transfer and expulsion were inextricably linked to it and that Prof Morris wrote about it before as such but now back peddling. Point: The plan has always been to get rid of the Palestinians to establish the ideal Zionist state. Prof Morris knows it well but he’s unwilling to concede the point.
@@Sam-yj1qt i dont think u destiny fans how academic discourse/debates take place. there is a recent you lot are referred as debate perverts because u guys scream "ha! ad hom! i won!!" without any sense of self awareness or reflection. digressing, many scholars (mouin alike) have contended professor morris' position change on the issue and he was using direct quotes that not even benny was disputing, but was trying to give context to (which werent adding up btw). Sure, Norman is a provocative guy but he does not turn to blatant unproductive adhoms with benny because he respects him and he made them clear. Maybe reflect on why he was only disrespecting Mr Brunell in the entire debate. Maybe understand it was because he does not respect his academic integrity as he shouldnt lmao. Benny at max would go to the extent to say "he has a point you know" in terms of going out of his way to support Destiny, and ofcourse he would theyre debating on the same side. You are allowed to use the words of other academics against them when they contradict themselves, there is nothing malicious about that. Norman, Benny, and Mouin all have the capacity to concede to points because they have a standard, something Destiny does not. He is truly a fish out of water that people, his takes are so stupendously surface level and lack proper research that people that can see through him think this is his grift. On the contrary, I think he is as stupid as everyone that supports him and his dumb fuck takes on Palestine Israel.
He had to move the debate along so it doesn't get stuck in one place. He was a good moderator
What an embarrassing conclusion to make. You do realise Finkelstein was disavowed for this exact reason? Quoting single sentences from entire volumes, completely ignoring the context is beyond bad faith and the idea you or anyone thinks he was doing anything but trying to reframe history is very telling.
Destiny's go-to defense for every insane Israeli action, "but that's bad, and Israel would never, as policy, do anything bad, because then it would be bad. But Israel is good. So. There you have it" 😂
He does think they have done wrong at times but that they're not generally monsters and it's implausible, rather than obvious to assume, that they would be monstrous, let alone should be judged as if they practically did, all but did actually do it. Being willing to accept, to some degree commit to a 40% minority, albeit sure reluctantly, not enthusiastically, does make it pretty implausible that they would then try to expel nearly all that minority.
@@suarezguy I think the debate has become too conflated when we assume that there a vast majority in either side that wants to do atrocities. That's not an impetus for genocidal force to emerge. A majority of good-willed idiots can be enough.
Objective facts and footage of IDF soldier and military officials absolutely undermine Destiny’s deference to IDF policy
Literally when does he say this?
@@mechamongrel-ir2qt
Yeah no. The standard for genocide is extremely high requires high mal intent
If you are not willing to give half of your house and your assets to me, you have no right to question the Palestinians. Who do the Israelis think they are?
Except they weren’t required to give up any of their land under the partition plan, they would simply live under a different government, so I don’t know what this analogy is.
@@HankblueAha. So the Israelis were going to live where? In the gaps between the houses and fields? AKA the streets?
Jews are the promised people of God. Not the Palestinians.
The promised seed was in Isaac.
@@HankblueAnd who are the Israelis to goverrn what is not theirs? Better analogy?: Hand over the deed of your house. You don't have to move or give up any of your space. Also, I have a bridge for sale.
The mental gymnastics of Zionists is beggars belief, the way they try to make people think they are so so reasonable and of the highest moral standing.
@@jesse75 your a joke
I have never heard of Mr Rabbani before this debate. What a fanstastic, soft spoken orator he is. By far the best performance of this debate
Why is this Borelli guy so interested in what Jews do?
He’s a Roman Jew 😅
@@williamgunderson7365
😂🤣
@@williamgunderson7365😭🤣😭
Whats the issue that he is.
He is a paid stooge. The money must be good to lose whatever morals he has or ever had.
What is destiny doing here
Lex need to stop interrupting Norm when he making a good point. We know which side he's on.
I actually think he didn't interrupt enough. He didn't say much
I don't think lex is so biased tho, he contributed so much to the conflict andhe went to the west bank and spoke to people there (watch his video) and he is jewish and some of his relatives died in the h0locaust so I don't blame him so much if he has some bias at this point even tho I stand with the palestinian cause. Lex is such a good journalist.
I like this answer more than…….”let me blah blah some content I prepared to sound smart when you talk sense to me” -Mr Borelli in a nutshell 2:50
Lex’s idiotic comment - don’t quote the scholarly analysis by some e because it was influenced by a war.
I agree, don’t penalize Norm because he came prepared.
Rabbani framed it perfectly, no country would say fuck it I’ll give them 10% of my land. Don’t believe me though just look how people don’t let go of land regardless of how small and insignificant they may or may not be. Western Sahara, Taiwan, Puerto Rico, Guam, Tibet are examples
It wasn’t “their” land as there was no “their”. It was originally Ottoman Turkish territory and the region was divided totally differently (for example Beirut and Haifa were in the same province). If it was about “their” land then there should have been equal outrage over the invention of Lebanon Syria Iraq and Jordan. These were all invented mandates including Palestine which originally included Jordan. This has nothing to do with “their land” being taken. They just don’t want a Jewish state in the region. And the Hashemites who rule Jordan are from outside the land-they were imported from Arabia. And no one cares. The problem is that the Arabs don’t want a Jewish state. Period. And they keep waging wars against it and losing and then complaining when the Jews fight back. It’s pathetic and ridiculous.
But hold on... There wasn't an existing country in the region. This distinction, whether good or bad, is super important because it explains how the Jews were able to migrate there and establish a presence. This would likely not have happened if a country had existed.
@@AlwaysGrowAndLearnNo, two thirds of land was owned by them.
@@AndersLiljebladNo, two thirds of land was owned by them.
@@Youd876 What are you talking about? Who owned what? And how is it relevant to my comment?
It does seem like Benny modifies factual information he wrote to forward his argument. Poor Finkelstein, he is too much of an academic and does not know how to delve on rhetoric. Benny aided by his partner came out more as politicians and thats what people identify with. Norm challenged Morris to an open intellectual debate, lets wait and see if that ever happens.
One thing I will say is that Lex really gave Morris and the pro Israel stance generally several bail outs on this.
Benny Morris has more academic authority than Finkelstein.
"Poor Finkelstein, he is too much of an academic and does not know how to delve on rhetoric" LOL
Benny wants to drop atomic bombs on Iran...so he's just another warmongering neocon zionist.
Finkelstein had nothing but rhetoric. His favourite (and most successful) argument was raising his hand while saying Destiny's name wrong, then appealing to his or someone else's authority. Sometimes I wonder if the pro-Palestinian side have a functioning brain or if there's a requirement for neurological damage before you join that side.
Mouin has the patience of a saint having to explain basic 101 history and politics to Destiny.
It doesn't matter how 'good' or 'bad' the land is. It's not yours to give and it's not yours to take. Imagine having most of your country given to a completely separate people, by a completely unrelated third party.
First, thanks for posting clips. I couldn't sit through this for as long as it went. You can't just say a land is your homeland when you nor any living relative you've ever met ever lived there. This is a problem with starting in the 40's. In 1905 the land was predominantly Palestinian Muslims. A small percent was Jewish until 1905, when Jews would stat the Zionist movement and disrupted the demographic within a few decades. Again, as I've pointed out a few times in other clips fighting was breaking out by the teens. The Palestinians were the known authority in the land known as Palestine despite not having some western credential these Zionists feel is binding on a global level. So this whole question is disrespectful to any Palestinian because it's a bunch of strangers talking about what's good for them and what they may or may not be entitled to based on the fact that their culture wasn't interested in forming any westernized government. Palestinians are people from Palestine. If it wasn't a state, why are they called Palestinians? And while Norm may beat the dead horse, it is worth beating. Any occupied people has the right to fight back. You can't use that as an excuse to expel or exterminate when you created the conditions that forced them into those machinations in the first place. If you're going to let Benny correct the words in his book, you should at least point out his hypocrisy.
You do realize Palestine was already occupied and controlled by the Ottoman Empire for 402 years (1516-1918). Do you know what happened in 1918? Would you have preferred the Germans won World War 1? You act as if Palestine was an independent and sovereign nation which is completely ahistorical. Many of the so called "indigenous" Palestinian populace in modern day Israel were recent Egyptian and Transjordan migrants that were working in a mostly uninhabited land.
I will say this, there are consequences to both starting and losing a World War. You might be against the British mandate, the league of nations, and the U.N.; but I would posit you know nothing of modern nation states or warfare if that is the case. As a recent pundit has said, "Israel is the only country not allowed to win a war" and is instead put in a position of meekly defending itself against genocidal intention from a people that will not negotiate. "If it wasn't a state, why are they called Palestinians?" Please....
@@zarbins Everything you've said is demonstrably false. I know you believe it, but that doesn't make it a fact. The only thing that you said that's true is the Ottoman Empire did rule that part of the world. That doesn't somehow make it ok for someone else to assume the role of your old oppressors simply because they were defeated and you were left with with nothing more than a national identity. Moreover, concerning your audit of my intellect you only demonstrate the propaganda tactic of devalue, then debate. Your claim that Palestine was not a proper nation state comes from a western perspective, and does not apply just because you and a bunch of western leaders say it does. Just turn on the news and see how successful you have been these past 75 years. Saying it does not make it so. But your failures aside, Great Britain was meant to, and pledged to secure the rights of a Palestinian state. The Balfour declaration was for Israel to establish a small Jewish state representing a minority in the area. Zionism went on the rise and they betrayed the Palestinians using the Balfour declaration as some sort of justification. Read it and you'll see what it says is not what happened.
Palestine was chuck full of Palestinians until 1905 when the Jewish Zionists grew their demographic in the area to a whopping 5%. By the 20's that inflated to 20%, but the real imbalance did not take place until the 30's when Jews were fleeing the Nazi takeover. At their height for the time Jews made up 30% of the population by 1947. Before WWI, and through WWII Palestine was a vast majority of Palestinian Muslims. They only became a minority, as Mouin briefly alludes to with a smirk, is when Israelis started marching 10's of thousands of Palestinian Muslims out into the desert to be mass executed. This went on from the 40's through the 60's.
Israel has not only been allowed to win their wars, they've been allowed to steal even more land. Their citizens get up in the middle of the night to displace Palestinians from entire neighborhoods, and the president has spoken about this himself. They do this at gun point, with the IDF at their back because the IDF are the security guarding the settlements they live in. It is Israel's winning, and not even attempting to reconcile with those they've defeated that causes all Islamic fundamentalism in the world, and has from day 1. But you go ahead, tell me more about what I think and why I think it...
@@macanoodough Facts! Thank you. Let us all watch the mental gymnastics of your debater now. I predict it will go further into unconscious Arab antisemitism.
So in the America's the natives aren't actually natives to their ancestral lands because the white people pused them out a few centuries ago?
This is wrong on so many levels.
It's like saying if Texas decides to secede from the United States today, that it's practically a white nation state, because they are a majority, and thus every other group that lives there or moved there before secession, only has rights if they submit to their authority.
When the Zionist movement began, Palestine was known as Ottoman Palestine, and it was simply a region of the Ottoman Empire. It was not a nation state, hell, one of the reasons why Sykes-Picot is regarded as being so evil, was because it was seen as an attempt by Europeans to divide the Arab world into nation states, when the whole point of the Arab Revolt was to have a singular Arab Super State, Kingdom or Empire. It's actually the failure to accomplish that and giving up on that ideal, that ultimately led to the PLO declaring statehood in 1988.
The whole idea of Palestine being "occupied" is based on confusing Arab Nationalism with Palestinian Nationalism, and basically accepting the premise of Arab Nationalism, that Jews had no rights and no land that Arabs had to accept once the Ottomans and the Brits were out of the picture. Which is precisely what they did to Jews pretty much all over the Arab world after they lost the first Arab-Israeli war in 1948.
Destiny is so disingenuous. Dude is a millenial aged video game streamer relying heavily on his notes for his talking points, what connection does he actually have to Palestine? Get someone on who's involved
what did he say that came off as disingenuous? or are your only problems with his character?
@@verybigbrain723he doesn’t seem to know much except for one sided talking points
You'd have to watch the whole debate to make an honest opinion. Anyone that actually watched it aren't thinking that destiny was the ass. Just in cute clips.
Finkelstein literally had to be corrected for not understanding a quote he was quoting to the author of the quote lol.
@@verybigbrain723 give us a ai gle argument destiny made that was back by historical facts that proved anything? He doesnt know shit Bout history and its context
@@Blackion_He quoted him multiple times and multiple times morris had mo answer, this is the only time morris hide behind a "false context as if zionism leaders had not already explicitly made up their tough about expulsing the arabs to establish their state. Bullshit, Benny got bodied all along, just like when he is referring to a few "dozens" destrooyed building versus over 140 . Disegenous at its core
WHY IS DESTINY ON HERE! He does NOT have the intellect to match the other guests whatsoever!
At least he didn't resort to constant ad hominem like Mr Finkelli.
Becuase it's hilarious. I know that is probably one of the most intense serious topics of our age but sometimes we need that humor to get through it.
Because we need someone who is pro-terrorism
He is literally the only one who went into what the ICJ case said and to what genocide means. Your two experts decided that accepting the court filing meant that there is genocide. Well, I guess that means we don't need court at all. Anytime any person sues another they automatically win. Maybe send a better team.
@MustardSkaven he had his own games he played don't pretend he didn't
Does Destiny even acknowledge a point made with out replacing it with a stupid "... but what I normally hear ..." ? Honestly curious as I hadn't seen it. Benny is very accomplished but can hear other points, at times at least, without irrupting.
That said this was one of the more interesting points in that event.
Destiny and morris were far more charitable to the pro palestinian side then all the deflection that was given by rabbani and flat out lies by finklestein. What the hell are you taking about? Rabbani literally said in the debate shit like palestinian attack on October 7th was justified but israel launching a response with swords of iron was not. He lied about the fact that israel accepted the borders of the partition plan. Benny even admits the 1967 war was not an existential threat. They said clearly that any deliberate attacks by IDF soldiers on palestinian civilians are condemnable. The pro Palestinians even refused to acknowledge that IDF didn't kill any reasonable proportion of israelis on October 7th by crossfire. They didn't acknowledge that Palestinians had tried to get all of israel many times. You are either biased, careless or stupid.
It sounds very amateur, which to be fair, he absolutely is on the topic. Lex picking him was a massive mistake. If you wanted someone with star power to argue the pro Israel side, he could've picked Ben Shapiro.
@@MasterofLightningAgree. He could have picked differently and I would have understood 'marketing' the event to Destiny for coverage, etc.
Destiny conceded many points in the first 2 hours. I think he did much better than you guys are giving credit. Norm by far looked the worst in this debate, by a country mile, by his conduct and by his dodging points
I have to listen to someone who calls himself Destiny?
Norm ain't having it and the lib commenters are mad about it.
Well yeah, but he has a name you know, and its Mr Broccolini-Morelli
No. You can click off
Mouin Rabbani is making excellent points. His manner is also without any fanfare, without hyper inflating the tone, and that only lends more authenticity to his already clear, established facts
What is missing from the gentleman's argument about the Palestinian Arabs not having a right to that land as their land is false, because the right is not based upon who is living in that land, but the fact that they and other Palestinians, whether Palestinian Arabs, Jews, or other ethnicities that had been living in Palestine as citizens of whatever government ruled that land.
It is not a matter of what government ruled the land.
It is a matter of being the aboriginal civilian population who had been living in that land for many, many generations who were having the land they had been citizens through whatever governments being given to European Zionist settler colonists who were creating a government under which the aboriginal population which was not Jewish would be reduced to second class citizens with no right to vote or be ethnically cleansed from the land they had been living in for generations.
As far as ancient ties to the land, the Palestinian Arabs, Palestinian Jews, and other Palestinian ethnicities whose ancestors had been living in that region for thousands of years, tracing back to ancient Canaanite rule prior to ancient Israelite and back before even that, those populations have equal ancestral claim GREATER THAN Jews who had been living for generations in other lands where they had mixed heritages from those lands, those weaker genetic ties to the ancient region that today we call Palestine.
Now, had the British government taken the whole of the British Mandate and created a single country with a constitution that protected the rights of all ethnic groups, all religions, and made all existing citizens full citizens while also allowing Jews to migrate there and become equal citizens... we would not have the conflict that we do today.
Instead the Zionists, who wanted all the land, settled on an agreement with the British and other Western powers to break up Palestine and give a large portion of it to the Zionists for them to establish an extremely racist apartheid state where all the existing non-Jewish citizens in the land being given to the Zionists would be reduced to second class citizens with no right to vote.
That is what led to the civil war where thousands of Palestinian Arabs revolted against the invading Zionist. But those Palestinian Arabs lost, the Zionist began ruthlessly ethnically cleansing hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs from the land to become modern Israel and that resulted in the Israeli Arab war, which the Zionists also won. Just because the Zionists won does not mean the Zionists were in the right.
Then after the war ender, Israel refused to allow the over 700,000 Palestinian Arab civilians to return to their homes despite the fact that only a few thousand of Palestinian Arabs participated in the civil war fighting the Zionists. This was because the Zionists wanted to pretend to have a democracy by guaranteeing they had a super majority vote to guarantee they controlled the newly established modern Israel.
very well said, this is what a good argument looks like
Mr. Anderson...
🤣🤣🤣
Lex came off partisan in this towards Benny. He had some issue with Norm.
Probably bc Norm is a petulant man child.
Norm was disruptive, emotional and prone to ad hominem. Can't blame a host for taking offense to that.
@@MustardSkaventotally inaccurate characterization. Norm was professional for 99%, and had a couple of short bursts where he (correctly) called Destiny out on his ignorance, and that was only when destiny was being blatantly flippant.
@@outlandish8 He spent roughly 30% of his time ad hominem and yelling. Try gaslighting someone who didn't watch the full debate.
@@MustardSkaven I know your type are desperate to discredit anyone who, like Finkelstein, threatens your point of view. But please, don’t debase yourself by lying like this. The debate is available for everyone to watch. “30%” lol you’re an idiot.
Need another Palestinian voice - they are virtually never asked to voice an opinion
That’s because when you let them speak they say horrendous excrement like their elected leaders Hamas. I swear if I replaced the word Palestinian with Syrian or Saudi, westerners would have a more accurate grasp on what was likely to come out of their shithole mouths
I can guess what their opinions are. But you're not wrong
Except for the fact that they are always asked to voice one before anyone else
lil Dickey always throwing shade
Norm is based! 100
2:49 destiny didnt adress anything he said instead responds to stuff he has heard people say online lmao
It's so good to see that you're letting the scholars bring their mentally handicapped nephews to the show - helps keep them off those vidya games.
this is disrespectful but oh my god I laughed 😭
6:48 morris said israel received the '47 partition plan.
Buy why they attacked Jaffa which was not assigned to jewish state?
The Jewish side accepted the UN plan for the establishment of two states. The Arabs rejected it and launched a war of annihilation against the Jewish state.
What caused the Jaffa riots?
The fundamental cause of the Jaffa riots and the subsequent acts of violence was a feeling among the Arabs of discontent with, and hostility to, the Jews, due to political and economic causes, and connected with Jewish immigration, and with their conception of Zionist policy as derived from Jewish exponents.
1929 Hebron massacre of Jews. Can you answer why ?
rumors cause that @@andypang2674
Because of repeated attacks
So they rejected any home. Cutting their nose off to spite their face? And they still angry?
And why should anyone care what Steven Bonnell thinks?
This intellectual debate is relevant for the experts engaging in it, that destiny kid should go talk about what he’s expertise is on ‘Red pill and Blue pill’.
*his
facts
Hes way out over his skis here
Thank you for hosting this talk
This is huge Lex, people need a starting point, you are providing a a safe place that provides a real opportunity for views to be heard respectfully without judgement
Keep going, I’m learning so much
Very eye opening
Oh shut up he's a Zionist himself
There should have been more options. Why did Israel get the only port in Aqaba? The map was drawn up by Jews or those heavily influenced by the Jewish Agency in Palestine, not Arabs.
Aqaba would have been in the Palestinian territory. It wasn't given to the jews.
What map/plan are you looking at? It was clearly in the Jewish territory. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine@@denkanator
@@23ofSeptember so Aqaba is in Jordan. The Jordanians were Palestinians. So it was granted to the Palestinians. And not the jews.
presumably, you are talking about Eilat? Which didn't exist as a port in 1947. And was not granted to the nazis
This borelli guy clearly has no understanding of the history, and at best, a cursory Wikipedia knowledge gleamed solely to justify this debate position.
Binging Destiny on this table with historians and intellectuals is an insult to the guests and the audience.
do you have a single disagreement in terms of substance of what was said or are you just an elitist fuck? And lets not talk about the fact that Benny Morris, one of Israel's most reputable historians (and you would agree with this because you seem to include him with the other historians and intellectuals), was constantly backing up destiny and reinforcing his points throughout the whole 5 hours???
Did destiny really ask that question about morality unironically? Has she not been paying attention to the literature in the slightest?
“I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right." - Winston chubby Churchill.
finally someone mentioned that quote, what happened to palestine was literally british white colonialism
I can't believe Norman was forced out of his job and Douchebagerwitz wasn't
As someone who does not know much about what is going on where can I go and look for information that's unbaised I try to veer away from mainstream media
the question of palestine by edward said
I would read any of Benny Morris' books, he's probably THE most well-respected historian on both sides of the conflict.
Listen to Sam Harris’ podcast for true clarity. There’s no one more perspicacious on this topic, in my opinion.
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Ilan Pappe, an Israeli historian.
The Biggest Prison on earth: A history of the occupied territories by Ilan Pappe
@@HugoDeBatelol if you insist
Poor Destiny needed to reboot.
Nuance is not his game.
Bennys microphone should be closer, can barely hear him.
I feel bad for people who are pro-Israel because their bias blinds them from how wise and knowledgeable Prof Norm is.
Every time he speaks he brings so much wisdom and context to the matter.
I agree so much, he is an academic, he went and saw gaza and the WB and israel, he lived in a Palestinian village during the intifada, and he is jewish and descendant of holocaust victims... he knows better than all of us at this point.
lol finkelstein is an antisemite and a clown he is not wise at all
Norm is fully insane, look at how he treats his own neighbors.
Tool@@Ksean29
@@FengBaoYolotli thoughtful response.
As an israeli i can say that mouin is the best out of the 4 i never came across someone so polite intelligent and objective as him
mr. Finkelstein was sharp in this debate but was very emotional and aggresive
Norman said he laid up on activism 2 years ago due to old age and was ready meet God. But he couldn't sit idle as Z state is committing this unprecedented wiping of humans from October.
Finkelstein is highly intelligent and passionate. He's a professor and academic, not a debater.
@@humanchannel9421 i would argue that he is a realy good debater he was very dominant in this debate
@@iwatchwithnoads7480 the problem with norman is that he is despise israel so much he does not even want to find a solution just to
Scream how israel is the devil
I would expect from a person that so bothered by what the palestinians are going through to also be activisit for solution and peace
@@sliser4941 Would you expect the same of people dealing with Adolf Hitler?
I wonder how cognizant you Israelis are of how the White man saved you from him to begin with.
This is probably the most substantive clip i’ve actually seen from this whole debate. I don’t think the word moron was used once and I don’t think anyone got anyone’s name wrong. What a terrible clip
Honestly this was probably the most civilized of debates regarding the topic. Very impressed with both sides listening and speaking
Only this part
@maxx_thedragondominator ha ha yeah I saw the entire debate. However this one actually discussed the issue instead of shaming each other. Norm does say some rough stuff to the youtuber. But overall it was much better than the rest of the garbage that gets put up
Mr bornelli got rekt
Mouin Rabbani got rekt
That's hilarious. The Uber professor, a man of such intellect, reduced to a petty squabble over Wikipedia. Fascinating how reputation shields some from the same scrutiny others face.
not really
“Mr…Roboto!
Thank you very much
Oh Mr. Roboto!
For doing the jobs
That nobody wants to
And thank you very much
Oh Mr. Roboto!
For helping me escape
Just when I needed to
Thank you
Thank you, thank you
I want to thank you
Please, thank you!”
At the moment when Britain's abandonment of Palestine was announced in 1948, the establishment of the Israeli state was announced as a state for the Jewish minority against the Arab countries that had also achieved independence at that time, some of which were still under British mandate. In the same year 1948, when Britain announced its withdrawal from India, the establishment of the Pakistani state was announced as a state for the Muslim minority against Hindu India for the same reason and in the same way
Pakistan was for people who were natives in that land and there was no fear that Pakistan would keep grabbing land from India. While Israel was for migrants who mostly came in the last twenty years and openly believed in the idea of confiscating more land from Palestinians.
Pakistan-India has literally no comparison to Israel-Palestine. Even Israelis don’t use that as an example but you can sheep on.
No Pakistanis we’re imported to India from Europe or Africa to form Pakistan. They literally were just people who wanted a separate state from India in their own homes. Whereas Israel just had people fly in and force the local populous out.
@@amayachan6177
You have missed the meaning of the comparison and confined yourself to the literal meaning of the comparison. This is not the intention, but the intention is that when the large Indian nation gained independence, which includes Muslim and Hindus Indians , Britain planted a conflict within the nation to hinder its development and divided the Indian citizens into Hindus and non-Hindus. In the same year, Britain planted it in the heart of The Arab nation a deadly conflict to hinder the liberation of the great Arab nation. Please do not comment before you think. The West made Israel possess nuclear weapons, and the West made Pakistan possess nuclear weapons even though Pakistan is Muslim, because the Western goal is the same.
@@AmirShaikh-qz9pt
the intention is that when the large Indian nation gained independence, which includes Muslim and Hindus Indians , Britain planted a conflict within the nation to hinder its development and divided the Indian citizens into Hindus and non-Hindus. In the same year, Britain planted it in the heart of The Arab nation a deadly conflict to hinder the liberation of the great Arab nation.The West made Israel possess nuclear weapons, and made Pakistan possess nuclear weapons even though Pakistan is Muslim, because the Western goal is the same.
@@ibrahimanan1874 your comment in this video and the way you’ve written it comes off exactly as I and the previous commenter perceived.
They have left Kashmir as the sore thumb. The years of colonialism did radicalise the rift between the two religions that there was no going back. This partition was bound to happen - and it would’ve been smooth if it weren’t for what Brits did to Kashmir.
Also - west didn’t give Pakistan a nuke. Just like it didn’t give one to India. India and Pakistan both made nukes and now they are both equal in that department. And that’s how it should be. Why should the larger hostile neighbor have a nuke and the smaller one not? It’s not a point of contention that Pakistan has a nuke. Because India has one too. Again - not the same intention even.
If anything - Kashmir and Palestine can be sort of compared. But that too is too far fetched because Indians are still a local population and Kashmir just wants independence from them. No colonialism.
How no one is talking about the fact that historic Palestine included Jordan and Syria so if you take that into consideration, the Jews only got a very small part.
In that case European jews should've gotten a small part of europe.
Where they had lived for consecutive centuries
@@closetglobe.IRGUN.NW0 They joined their brothers and sisters who lived in the land for ever. Did you know that on early 1900s the majority of people living in Jerusalem were Jews? Just because a people became minority doesn’t mean they lost their rights over the land.
@iditbes6962 It's very simple
European jews wanted to colonize palestina.
According to zionist historian Benny Morris, zionists chose to accept the 1937 partition plan, so they could eventually takeover all of Palestine
1:25 the problem with this line of questioning is that there was never a Palestinian state and there was never such a thing as Palestinians. The majority of what we now refer to as Palestinians were citizens of Jordan until the 1980’s. They should be referred to as arabs as at the time there was no cultural or stately difference between “Palestinians” and Jordanians. So the premise of the question is completely flawed.
A land without people…. That was start of all this : a land without a people , a people without a land .
1881 Russia pogroms. When the first batch of Jews comes to Palestine as refugees.
Now that we know there were people in Palestine, how is this still a debate? Seth Rogen was honest about this. He said he was lied to. Why can't many of them admit it too?
@@andypang2674 And the Ottoman Empire back then accepted them, because they were genuine refugees. This was a decade before Herzl birthed his diabolical ideology.
All I have to say is Lex Fridman is a legend.
Borelli is a donut
Though I am surprised Prof Finkelstein or Rabbani didn’t ask the donut to google what Ben Gurion said about Arabs accepting the deal.. because Google is all he has to offer to this debate
Uh, Destiny obliterated them. Not that it's hard, considering they're both utter liars and have absolutely no substance/argument. Benny Morris already addressed your clueless assertion.
@@puckutubesux7356 😂 yeah cool story.. I guess you think obliterating is regurgitating rhetoric rather than facts.. go figure
And no benny morris danced around it you drone.. read up on Ben Guriona quotes.. no one would accept it.. but you seem beyond any cognitive thought so enjoy living in blissful ignorance
@@mh8826No, Destiny repeated facts. He was literally reading from official documents. Finkeltortoise yelled insults and revealed that he didn't even READ the ICJ report he keeps blathering on about and lying about. No, Benny Morris already addressed it, and you pretend not to understand it, just like Finkeltortoise. You're bad faith, like all mood-slime apologists.
@@puckutubesux7356 simple minded is watching Destiny Google Wikipedia and thinking he has a leg to stand on
You can’t even address the Ben Gurion quote right now.. how about you go on destiny stream and ask him to google it for you and give you an explanation of what “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” means.. tip.. donate to him so you have a slight chance of him even bothering with your bootlicking
@@puckutubesux7356 Destiny has spent a few weeks on Google compared to three guys who between them have probably read a few thousand books on the subject.
I watched the debate in its entirety, and I cannot remember a time I've seen Destiny more out of place and uncomfortable. Frankly speaking, I was embarrassed for him. Even though Finkelstein was a bit harsh, I can understand his reaction to a guy who isn't even wet behind his ears as far as this topic goes, who gets confused and lost about dates and what is actually being discussed.
I understand why people who watch Destiny would want to defend him, you might even genuinely believe Destiny looked good here. But, from my perspective it is clear as day that Destiny was way over his head.
That look at 0:50 when Norm hears someone dare to say Mr Morelli made a good point
Give Israel back to the Caananites! They were there first!
The Arabic community claims descendance from Ishmael--who was not a Canaanite. Some still survive but mostly in Lebanon.
@@I_Lemaire Westetn Levantines arent biologically Arabs, they are Canaanites
@@donjowansafadi8739 I've heard this before, mostly in Lebanon. Hamas does not support this view
@@I_Lemaire Hamas aren't anthropologists, this isn't an opinion it's a fact
@@donjowansafadi8739 It is not a fact at all
Who lived in Canaan before Ibrahim reached Cannan...,????
when the debate is so lopsided the moderator has to ban references to those pesky written records 😂😂
Honestly, my favorite thing about these comments is that we're all in agreement that Destiny has no business being there and repeatedly shows he's way out of his element.
I've only made it through about 2 hours of it so far, but I'm embarrassed for him. Unfortunately, I think I have to watch it again because I was too tired to get a full analysis on just how bad it is. It's strange that I feel compelled to torture myself this way.
Destiny is beyond annoying. The smugness.
Yup and is shocked Hasan is liked more than him. Enigma of wannabe - intelligent man.
This whole debate doesn't require the striper "destiny" to be here
why is a twitch streamer the only person they could scrounge up for that position?? 😂😂😂
Why is "destiny" even there?
Lil Dicky was busy
They couldn't get vanilla ice for the gig.
@@humanchannel9421 lol
Ben Shapiro handles him now and he wants both the left and right to be pro-Israel so the Zionists can have more control over the Hegelian dialectic
So this is what John Malcovich is doing now?
He's always been a mad mudafuka
He fighting terrorism now
That’s how children act not a people
Our country used to assimilate migrants, there was no need to have borders, but then we brought the followers of the religion of peace, now the borders are social, the borders are religious, and there is a demographic border, every country has borders! whether tribal, regional, religious, racial, economic, or political. not all borders are made of concrete or steel.
The Religion of Peace wants your head
Why the hell SHOULD the Arabic natives accept a partition of their own land? It's their land! The idea that Israel has any legitimacy at ALL is entirely predicated on an outside imposition and it is absolutely in their right to refuse any and every attempt at Israel's establishment and to suggest otherwise is horrific.
The fact that the book is Mythology and Allegory makes this even more insane.
Jews are native...
@@eschur it's totally fine if Jews want to immigrate to the Levant based on a perceived ancient ancestral heritage, but Zionism is something else entirely. Their concerns absolutely do not supercede those who have been there for a thousand years
@@isaacjones6323 completely incorrect as the entire Palestine under international law is Jewish land
Lex did such a great job with this podcast.
He came off super biased.
@@khabibnurmagomoodov9287 Agreed. Lex allowed Prof Morris to constantly interject when Norm was addressing stuff he had written, then would interject on Norm a lot. Very disappointed in the outcome of this.
No he didn't. Lex is a moron. Why was Destiny there
14:00
Morris: "The -eh - eh -eh"...
Can you imagine the Americans giving 10% to the Cherokee?
0:50 « I think you raise a valid point” about Destiny. Then Norm Finkelstein turns his head 😂😂😂🎉🎉
Hahahhahag my god 😂❤
ah yes...the professional historians and... gamer-streamer-youtube guy
i suppose we could all start wondering 🤔 what’s going to become of the country-soon-to-be-formerly-known-as-Israel ?
Worst thing that could happen is it becomes another afghanistan, though with alot of international interactions i doubt it will be that bad.
Why can't all these people live in the same country?
well, I wish, but one side is kicking the other out of their homes and have an idology that makes them superior so yeah that ither side is eventually gonna react💀
The israeili side is cringe i couldn't complete
Did you not watch the end when norm talked about following international law but said he supports the houthis?
@@navinthehouse4710 houthis did sanctions
The US does sanctions all the time and forcibly enforce them as well, they are following international law, why wouldn't we support someone who is sanctioning genocide doers?
@@navinthehouse4710 Bruh, in a world where we are surrounded by cowards, who sit on their computer chair and air conditioner, LIKE ME (I recognize the reality of my situation and actions), I find it admiring when someone is willing to stand up. As much as we fight and may repost, there is a terribly one sided conflict that overshadows the gap between Ukraine and Israel. Houthis are the ones who are standing up against the big empire.
The empire that invaded and destabilized Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, and ton of other countries. Listen to retired colonels such as Larry Wilkerson (Who served during Reagan administration - Bush Jr administration), to Douglas McGregor, to Karen Kwiatkowski, to ex CIA analyst Larry Johnson and Ray McGovern, to leading economist Jeffrey Sachs. These are people DEEP within the US that have worked in the government and military for decades, and they all say the same thing. AMERICAN FORIEGN POLICY is simply to extract resources and contain competitors. Too many countries have fallen prey and their people are the victims, because we come and leave without fixing the mess. The Houthis are HEROES. Bruh, we are sitting in a room with a fast computer probably with air conditioning and eating food. We are the domesticated pigs. Domesticated pigs who will die for nothing because we're raised to be dependent and cowards nowadays.
The houthis are NOT aiming at innocent people. They are aiming at TRADE ROUTES that are related to the Israelis which are hands down some of the most racist people that exist right now, on a level that is very rare and foreign in a country like America. These TRADE ROUTES are actually doing damage, unlike our 'repost' on social media lol. America sucks bruh lmao, we are the richest country yet when I visit Japan and Korea they are far ahead. (And even then, Hyper Capitalism comes at a cost as depression rates are usually insanely high, just like those countries. Kids in the Philippines growing up with trash are happier than the kids in high school in Korea and Japan).
Same. So entitled and smug.
@@awaf12 Come on that's not why houthis broke international law they slaughter their own Yemeni people and commit atrocities.
I can't believe that people of these intellect can't make difference between these words and use them loosely "Arabs, Jew, Muslim, Israeli and Zaionist"
To clarify :
- Arabs and Israeli (aka Son's of Israel aka Son's Jakob) these are races
- Muslim and Jew these are religion where you can find an Israeli Muslim or Arab Jew
- Zaionist is the European idea. It is basically the word used for non Semitic European who wanted to be included as Israeli
Whenever europeans get involved wars start.
I see that. They say 'Jew,' but it refers to a person who believes in the Torah. However, there is a distortion: if a Palestinian were to convert to Judaism, would he have the same rights as Jews in Israel? That's why they mix it with race. The Israeli government treats Judaism as if it is not a choice.
@@guilhermenunes3044simply search in google "Judaism is an ethnoreligion". The confused ones are you and the OP. Israeli is a nationality, not a race. Islam is a fath. Judaism is both an ethnicity and a religion. Arab is an ethnicity.
European Jews are Semitic and Zionism is just politicizing an idea that was in Judaism all the time. If u look through jewish history the Idea of Zionism (going back to Israel and have an autonomy) is nothing new and was part of Jews from all over the world not just Europe. European Jews brought that Idea to politics forming a national state and they are Semitic. While most of the jews who followed the Zionist movement in the early stage were European Jews a lot weren’t European, like Yemeni Jews Kurdish Jews and so on. Majority of Israelis nowadays are non Europeans and are Zionist.
@@guilhermenunes3044there were cases of Palestinians converting to Judaism. There is one of Palestinian from Gaza who converted he moved to Israel and lives as an Israeli Jew.
I love mouin saying that most countries wouldn’t give up even 10% of their land. Norm, his partner is pro Russia, and wouldn’t agree with this stance except for Palestine
Why Palestinians rejected the Planes.
Imagine a family from Europe came to live in a land besides you because their ancestors 2000 years ago lived there.
This family is small in numbers but supported by a powerful person or entity.
Then they decided that they want your land to make closed gate community Ruled by their laws, and They told you most of your family have to leave so we will be the majority, you said no,it is my land.
Then after a while more of that family came to live around you and your family. But your family still have the bigger population in the Neighborhood.
The powerful entity suggested, the land that your family and the new comer family live on, need to be Split 55% to the smaller new comers family and 44% for your family who originally have the bigger number and own most of the land in the neighborhood.
There is no rational human being will accept that.
No body would agree or accept that suddenly to become the minority in this new state and their land is under the control and laws others who just came from where else.
That is just common sense.
Gents on the left, read and write books.
Gents on the right, whats a book?
funny of you to say Benny Morris on the right doesnt read or write books when both of the people on the left mention and compliment the contents of the numerous books he has written on the subject.
@@The1Linerunfortunately ms destiny (girls name) ruined it and i think that the israeli historian next to him would have made a better debator on his own
@@The1Linerremember that other clown that fabricated a book and copied dr finkelsteins content? anyone can write a book. very few can write an honest book.
@@icraftcrafts8685.....but Benny Morris books were written in the same school of historical thought as Ilan Pape, the "New Israeli historians", wich opened up debates to the nakba and violent attaks of Zionist against arabs. Benny Morris books are "honest" books he just went bananas after he wrote them in the 90th from then on onworads.
By his logic, Destiny would be in support of the American manifest destiny
And the lebensraum.
Mouin apologizes for the antisemitism of Amin Al Husseini, dismisses it as relevant, and does the same for Hamas.
He seeks to continue the “refugee” crisis, thereby continuing the war of 48, just as is the underlying purpose of UNRWA.
He also ignores that Jews were refugees fleeing Europe, calling them colonizers, which is essentially Holocaust denial.
I refuse to watch anymore "Debates" with Destny, clout chasing grifter with not much experience or actual knowledge. He just has a good memory for talking points.
I have the exact same feelings about Norman Finkelstein. I can't stand him anymore: his high-pitched voice, his slowness, his lack of intelligence, his failing memory (he can't even remember the name of his interlocutor), his way of humiliating his interlocutor by using all kinds of derogatory words... Norman Finkelstein is less a worshipper of Hamas than a hater of Jews. He reminds me of the Marx brothers. "I wouldn't want to be part of a club that accepts a guy like me as a member"
@@warmperson2007he knows destiny's name. He's intentionally fucking it up as a sign of disrespect.
This topic is so nuts. The more debates you watch the more you get to a point where there is no non violent solution for anyone
it's simple... this conflict started with colonization... and Palestinians been resisting the occupation ever since..
I believe you are right. At same time, if I'd live in a place with no rights, my only option would be to fight for it.
@@truelies5431 yes. And now you have a people and a country that will fight to keep it
@@guilhermenunes3044 yeah. If you live in violence but are militarily dominant due to the lives of your fellow country men, you would also fight
The 2000-2001 proposal (give sovereignty/Palestinian statehood of Gaza and at least 90%, probably quite a bit more, of West Bank to PA) still seems pretty reasonable just solution, probably what will have to happen eventually, but pretty few people now would be willing to either offer or accept that.
That land belongs to the people of the Levant, not these colonialists from Europe.