Palestine and the Holocaust heated debate | Israel-Palestine Debate and Lex Fridman
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- Опубліковано 16 бер 2024
- Lex Fridman Podcast full episode: • Israel-Palestine Debat...
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GUEST BIO:
Norman Finkelstein and Benny Morris are historians. Mouin Rabbani is a Middle East analyst. Steven Bonnell (aka Destiny) is a political livestreamer.
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Full podcast episode: ua-cam.com/video/1X_KdkoGxSs/v-deo.html
Lex Fridman podcast channel: ua-cam.com/users/lexfridman
Guest bio: Norman Finkelstein and Benny Morris are historians. Mouin Rabbani is a Middle East analyst. Steven Bonnell (aka Destiny) is a political livestreamer.
Have to laugh at all the "Why is Destiny even there" comments and "imagine Norm having to debate a youtuber on his lifes work"
Yet they don't have examples of him being wrong and even Norm was reduced to name calling because he couldn't disprove anything he was saying. Benny, the actual historian agreed with all of Destinys points. The cope is unreal, that's not even mentining Norms own neighbor situation ... lol!
😂😂😂😂@@mofishin2648
Norman Finkelstei and Mouin Rabbani are so disingenuous
HAMAS broke a ceasefire and surprised people at a music festival: killed 250 unarmed civilians at the NOVA music festival and less than 20 additional people who were security or army at the site.
That makes a civilian to soldier ratio of 10:1
IN GAZA - there is a war, so civilians were warned
out of 30,000 death, 15,000 are HAMAS militant (Although Hamas refuses to say its casualty numbers to manipulate the number)
so that's 15,000 civilians to 15,000 militants
That makes a civilian to soldier ratio of 1:1
HAMAS kills 10 civilians for 1 soldier
vs.
IDF Kills 1 civilian for 1 militant
and Hamas commits daily war crimes (Militants don't wear a uniform and hide under or amongst civilians)
ITS OBVIOUS HAMAS has a greater genocidal intent whereas IDF has a military goal
the only difference is the scale of the operation.
@@mofishin2648 he has no business in this debate. He mischaracterizes a number of items in the debate. For example, 22:40 , 23:25 etc. He does UA-cam/Wiki research, has no academy training and should like an uneducated sycophant. He has no business sitting next to Benny Morris or Norman Finkelstein.
"America is a golden calf and we will suck it dry, chop it up, and sell it off piece by piece until there is nothing left but the world's biggest welfare state that we will create and control... This is what we do to countries that we hate. We destroy them very slowly." Benjamin Netanyahu, 1990
“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas.” - Benjamin Netanyahu (2019)
“In the visible dimension Hamas is an enemy, in the hidden dimension it is an ally.”
- IDF Major General Gershon Hacohen (2019)
“Israel started Hamas. It was a project of Shin Bet.”
- Charles Freeman, US diplomat and ambassador (2006)
why is Destiny even allowed to be in this room?
Because Nutty Norm is?
@@roundedges2”Nutty Norm” lmaoo im sure that will catch on🤣
@@roundedges2Finkelstein is the son of holocaust survivors, a academic, historian and sociologist.
destiny speaks fast
You say those things like any of them makes him any less of a bullshitter.@@ghiorghetatarescu3649
Good question.
How can he say Christendom aimed to repay a debt to Jews with someone else's land with no hint of irony. Balfour simply "changed his mind" at the exact instance that it served British colonialism?!?!? GTFOH!😂
It's crazy isn't it, Christmas owes us so Christmas must pay with Arab land and Blood.
Millions of muslims balkanizing europe. Dont care about jews in israel. At least they dont need welfare.
Because that’s how the world worked back then. It was Christendom prior to the Arab Conquest that took over more than half of Christendom at the time.
The Berbers and Arabs got the US involved in that part of the world again.
I don’t think this will ever end, unfortunately. 😣
Arabs colonized 3 continents. Muslims stole from Christians, Hindus, Jews etc. And Jews purchased every inch of land legally through 1948. The Muslims purchased nothing, they just invaded, colonized, imposed the jizya on pre-Islamic civilizations etc etc
Talk that shit
putting Finkelstein and Destiny on the same debate is like putting the son of holocaust survivors, a academic, historian and sociologist on a debate with a streamer who "reacts" to youtube videos (steals content) while 15 year olds spam in his chat - oh wait, that's exactly what it is.
Every time he spoke you have to laugh bro couldn’t even point to Israel on the map before Oct 7.
@@user-rg8eh8rl6kif he’s so dumb, point out where he was wrong. Headass.
And yet Norm HAS TO keep saying "I know more than you" instead of demonstrating that he does. Norm's points are unbelievably predictable for a "scholar": anti-jew, anti-charlie-hebdo, pro-russia, pro-holocaust, pro-palestine WITH NO NUANCE. He's a woke/communist shill hiding under the guise that he has a degree in Israel-Palestine relations.
Norm squirms and squeals a lot like an old lady too... Just thought it'd be interesting to mention.
And yet Norm HAS TO keep saying "I know more than you" instead of demonstrating that he does. Norm's points are unbelievably predictable for a "scholar": anti-j, anti-charlie-hebdo, pro-russia, pro-holo, pro-palestine WITH NO NUANCE. He's a woke/communist shill whose position merely reduces to "anti-west at all costs" hiding under the guise that he has a degree in Israel-Palestine relations.
Norm squirms and squeals a lot like an old lady too... Just thought it'd be interesting to mention.
@@PhilosophyofGuitarhe's not woke at all
This debate gave me Tourette’s
You should start streaming. It pays.
Me too. I found myself yelling 4k off every time Borelli spoke. Someone should have supervised his meds before he went into this 'debate.' I've never heard such crap ever fall from anyone's mouth as he vomited.
@@katpuss6564who’s borelli? The one in the blue shirt?
Tourette’s*
@@katpuss6564what did you EXACTLY disagree? Quote one point og his.
Was Lex present or did he just leave the room halfway through the debate?
He passed out after 2 hours and had to be reanimated.
@@ThumbsHunter Damn, forgot to recharge his lithium-ion batteries again
@@ThumbsHunter Something about how you described this is very funny.
he got sick of hearing Destiny talk at 2.5x speed
@@Zomgtforly Destiny can't help himself, he takes the same "meds" Shapiro does.
"I attach value to every word i say".
"Mr. Borelli"
Is because there is no value in mr. Borenabellini
Horrible man
Exactly what I was thinking 😂
@@aidoskashenov4532 Dinklebot 😂
Well he should have said Mr " books are a waste Borelli" ,since that is the only "useful" 😉 thing Destiny said during all of this
Norm: I've read him
Destiny: You don't understand him
Norm: Believe me I'm a lot more literate than you Mr Borelli
😂😂😂
When the author says as much I tend to side with Mr bornel
@@snoopcelev1590 What if the Prof was lying
@@snoopcelev1590 Good for you being naive like this.
The fact that you have to SAY that you're more literate than someone because you can't DEMONSTRATE that you're more literate. What kind of person in a convo needs to tell you "hey I'm a PhD and you only have a bachelor, so I'm smarter and everything I say is right?"
It's like a flat girl in a bikini trying to seduce you by SAYING "I have huge front and back sides, you know?" Well we can witness that it's not the case, it's pathetic.
I wish he would have also said Mr. Fonzereli
What people don’t understand, and I think Norman should’ve made this clear, is he was pressing Benny because he believes, as do others, that Benny is distancing himself from his prior words because of the views he espouses in recent years.
I think Norman should’ve made that clear so Lex understood where he was coming from. I personally think it was obvious why Norman was holding a historian to his words, but I feel Lex is a bit too naive to get that.
Spot on! You could tell how adamant Prof. Norman was to hold Benny Morris to account, but Lex seemingly wanted his buddy Destiny to get some airtime here, so he let him completely reduce what would otherwise be an intellectual conversation to a bickering back and forth on disjointed minutiae that Destiny would spew out haphazardly.
I think the counter argument to that is that Finkelstein was picking quotes out of context and using the as "gotcha", when they lacked full context/meaning.
Because even Lex was able to understand the full context after Benny explained it.
The only person in the room who DIDNT seem to understand was Norm, because it blew up all his points.
The actual reason is that Finkelstein quoted parts of Morris' books out of context. Morris then proceeded to correct him, to give full context. Neither Finkeldick nor his fans seem to comprehend the full context.
I love how everyone who says Norm took Benny out of context literally have never read a SINGLE word of Benny's books. The point Norm was trying to make is that Benny is walking back on his prior points and for ANYONE who has read Benny that is OBVIOUS. He can state it was "out of context" all he wants, it becomes obvious once you read the books.
Who is this Israeli ben shapiro? Talking fast doesn’t make you right.
and one would point out what hes wrong about instead of reverting to insults, we call that a ad hominem attack
As opposed to non Israeli ben Shapiro?
@@musicmadebyai Destiny fan boy - no one cares about ad hominem 🤓
Mandark
@@musicmadebyai one doesn’t have to “point out” ben shapiro is wrong.
That moderator isn’t doing his job lol
He said he chose not to intervene to "represent the very real tensions that exist in this topic in the real world"
@@user-by6fp4ov3k woah big if true
I prefer it this way, I don't like when moderators interrupt non stop like Piers Morgan for example.
He’s a pretty bad moderator and interviewer in general
How...dare...you...
Mr bonocheli did awful in this debate
Please be careful with your words, like I am, Mr. Tortellini.
Yea, he did nothing but obfuscate, and derail. His "talk fast while getting into the weeds, minutiae, and nuance, and get lost in trivial nonsense just to claim to be right about trivial, irrelevant things" didn't work in this debate
That tactic usually doesn't work on adults. His fans do the same shi 🤣
They all focus on Norm getting irrelevants' last name wrong instead of every time duckstiny got shushed for another 40 mins after saying something stupid while the adults were talking 🤣
What did you expect from a college drop out in a debate with scholars who spend their life studying a subject.
You mean 'did awfully'? Whatever about the Middle East and Ukraine going up in smoke, standards must remain!
Mr Boccherini had better arguments, but I like the debating style of Mr Spaghetti
Why did they bring Destiny for?
Try to solve that riddle. It makes absolutely no sense for him to even be sitting close to these guys.
To bring his viewers to boost the video ratings is the only altruistic explanation
There is no mystery or conspiracy. Lex just likes Destiny. You can tell in both appearances
The double standards applied for Palestinians is incredible. What a great catch with the only safe place for jews was Palestine. I'll use that for sure in future. Morris cornered himself.
why? it was under britsh control,not palestinian control. the brits made sure after the great arab rebellion that the arab militas are quelled and no more massacre occur against jews,like 1929 massacre. jews had equal rights to arabs and if the arabs hoarded weapons -so did the jews. mizrahi jews in the rest of the middle east couldnt do so and suffered many pogroms without means to defend themselves. same with christian and yazidis in the rest of the middle east...
Majority of people that support Palestinians act as if they're the most innocent and purists people in the world. They're on their way to claim October 7 is a peaceful protest.
But at the time it was the only area that allowed Jews to migrate. So yeah it was the only safe heaven
“We didn't take a foreign land and we didn’t exist on the spoils of other nations, but on the lands of our fathers that through the years was illegally seized by our enemies. We, when we had the opportunity, restored our birthright.” _- Simon Maccabeus (135 AD)_
Simon Maccabeus led a Jewish army to defeat of the Seleucid Empire (Greek). This was prior to the migration of Arabs into Israel from Egypt, Jordan and Syria in the 7th century AD.
Jews have lived on the West Bank since ancient times. The Judea and Samaria Area of the West Bank covers a portion of the territory designated by the biblical names of Judea and Samaria. Both names are tied to the ancient Israelite kingdoms: the former corresponds to part of the Kingdom of Judah, also known as the Southern Kingdom; and the latter corresponds to part of the Kingdom of Samaria, also known as the Northern Kingdom.
After the War of 1948 17,000 Jews were expelled or ethnically cleansed from Jerusalem and an estimated 40,000 from Gaza and the West Bank. Jews were prohibited from living in those territories during Egypt's and Jordan’s occupation from 1948 to 1967. Jews were not allowed to worship at the western wall when Jordan occupied Jerusalem. Jews began to settle in the area again after it was captured by Israeli forces in the defensive war fought in 1967.
Judea - Samaria - Jerusalem - Hebron - Nazareth - Galilee all names from the Christian Bible which came after Judaism but before Islam.
@@francogiobbimontesanti3826 So the palestinians were the only one willing to allow jews to migrate. They were also providing them a safe space. And they are still some how partially responsible for the holocaust? And this is how they have been repaid over the decades by jews? Jews really are some grade A traitors. Perhaps the eurpoeans were right to treat them the way they were treated.
Hard to believe this is one of the highlights from a 5-hour debate.
Not when the issue is Israel-Palestine it isn't.
Jews are so desperate to be the victims , stopping indiscriminate killing on both sides is not antisemetic
I mean the base of this whole discussion is just wrong. The British decided to give population X the territory of Y i mean WTF??? How do you fix such a colossal fuck up?
I am not a bible thumper by any means but I am reminded of the verse about the sins of the father being passed down “4 generations”… I think this is axiomatic of our biology and our shorter life spans and even shorter memories and attention spans.
We need some way to retain the worthy knowledge of the past without saddling it with all of our emotional baggage.
Not to diminish the baggage but it becomes a generational albatross around our necks.
We may be wearing gold chains but but they are still chains keeping us in thrall of the blind, deaf and foolish.
Have you heard of war?
Heave you heard of the Ottoman Empire?
Have you heard of… uhh Nevermind
@@xorealslowmd have you ever heard of the Geneva Convention and why it was drafted in the first place? Your feau realpolitik is weak.
@@xorealslowmd you mean the Ottoman Empire that the British overthrew with the alliance of the Arabs. And so? Still doesn’t negate from the fact that who the fuck is Britain to promise the land of other people to a population that didn’t participate in so called war and got it purely out of a quick fix. Setting it up to be a mixing pot of fuck ups. Ah not much sense, talk before you think :) uhh never-mind.
Exactly. How can you blame the Palestinians, who already feared a takeover of their home, for pressuring the British to stop its mandatory immigration campaign, but not turn the same blame onto those more powerful nations, the US (Give me your tired, your poor, / Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free) in particular. Especially when they KNEW for YEARS about Hitlers extermination of the jews as it happened.
It's very clear zionist have never and will never see the Palestinians as a legitimate people who have rights to their home, rights as much as any other nation. It was very clear the intention of the British to ignore the wants of Palestinians in favor of setting up a colony in Palestine
Listening to this debate was good until destiny opened his mouth
Some zionists did negociate with the nazis. And Jabotinsky, famous zionist, was a Big fan and Friend of Mussolini. He regarded fascism as an inspiration. Netanyahou's father was the personal secretary of Jabotinsky...
Mussolini wasn’t a nazi, just so you know
@@randomkyle3he didn’t say that
Well Jobitinsky founded the Irgun which was a terror org, similar to the Lehi.
The Haganah was the force controlled by the mainstream Zionists.
The Zionists weren’t a fan of fascism, they were leftists primarily.
Lehi and Irgun, that’s a different story.
And they didn’t negotiate with the Nazis.
The head of the Lehi, Stern, asked Hitler to move the Jews that he was oppressing in Germany, to Mandatory Palestine, and in exchange stern would fight for him.
The mainstream Zionists hated this, along with his terror activity, and actually hunted Stern and tried to kill him. The British police killed him in 1942.
Not only did they negotiate, they welcomed the idea of the 'wrong sort' being removed, and kept out of Israel when it was created..
Nazi have 150thousand of jewish soldier
Did Benny just say in the middle of WW1 the British had an ideological bout of Christian remorse for the Jews, and thus created the Balfour Declaration. 😂😂😂😂
Not the British, but Lord Balfour
Insane as if the europeans didnt just want to kick out jews ... its not antisemitic if it serves zionist ideology, i guess. just like evangelical's dream of a rapture of all christians while jews stay on earth to all die thats why they wasnt israel to exist.
He was referring to Balfour. Benny literally said "he changed his mind".
@@plumbus813 I think the US are more likely to ban guns than the British Empire ever doing something unselfish. Let alone at the peak of the only ever world war (at the time). I’m afraid it exposes some naivety and wishful thinking in Benny. (who seems like a good guy) The Rothschild were also not known for kindness or generosity. I dare to ponder if Rothschild finances could have shaped the outcome of WW1. (Don’t worry I am not a CT)
@@mkwke215 thats some cope from benny lol
Dear Norm, I listen to you at 1.0 speed. I appreciate you and what you say
💪❤️🥳
My jaw fell on the floor when he said the West/Christian world OWED the Jews and should be given someone else’s land😂. Meanwhile he’s probably against reparations for blacks😂😂😂
Search about the Rothschilds. It had nothing to do with repentance against jewish persecution in medieval times and everything to do with rich euro-jewish families influencing Britain's foreign policies
what reparations? The West enforced the end of slavery!
He’s for it tho 😂
If Morris is correct, the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians living under the jewish state would have lived in a democratic society and probably had equal rights. Yes there were asshole extremists, but mainline Zionism was idealistic in its democratic and often socialist principles. Why was it so important for Arabs to have sovereignty over every inch of land? They were upset that they had to give up power and for some 'foreigner' having sovereignty over any territory, not for the welfare of the people who lived there.
I have listen carefully and twice this long podcast...I am worried, and sad, because the almost impossibility of a dialog even among reasonable parts...I can not imagine the interplay among vast populations of non reasonable persons...its worrisome and an appauling feeling of no hope in a workable, satisfactory to both parts solution, arises.
Darkest times we are living.
If you take out destiny from this show, the podcast would have been a lot more reasonable.
@@CenteneCenteneYes, he is more than annoying, and as for anybody who chooses to call themselves “destiny” . I found Mr Rabbani very impressive, calm and reasoned. Even Benny Morris, though I wouldn’t agree with him politically, at least he was reasonable.
'I can not imagine the interplay among vast populations of non reasonable persons' i mean destiny is there... so yes you can imagine
The whole project of colonialism is not reasonable, of course there can be no solution on such premises.
Destiny called himself Pro-Genocide. I find that unreasonable.
Why is dna testing illegal in israel? Please someone tell me
because jews are not nativet to Palestine, they invaded canaanites to exist there in the first place while Palestinians are native and direct descendants of the canaanites
it's not...check 23andMe for example, they have a list of countries they ship to, israel is on the list
Because the zionist are white europeans and not real Semites of the land
Because Mr Borelli says so!
@@ZbuttcheeksDNA testing is not banned in Israel. The Genetic Information Law, passed in 2000 amid privacy concerns, conditions domestic testing on a doctor's prescription or court order, & that testing be done by accredited labs. Commercial ancestry tests can be purchased from abroad.
For someone like me who isn't versed in the topic at all, this debate didn't do anything to help me understand it further, unfortunately.
Did you not listen?
All debates are performative. It’s for the people that already agree with one side or the other to cheer on
@@Thegabub I've seen plenty of debates on many topics where I learned a lot. This is just 27 minutes of people on the left saying one thing and the people on the right saying another. Both claim to speak about facts and one guy is busy with ad homines against another debater. Lex should have intervened more often to steer the conversation towards something more fruitful.
I don't think debates are great for learning things. They can be manipulative and its hard to fact check in real time
This debate is more interesting for folks who are a little more seasoned on the details of the conflict. No problem on your end.
One side is arguing for their side. While the other side, is arguing for Justice.
Why is this dude smiling & laughing whenever he justifies arguing against being wrong?
The question is whether the Israeli state is an apartheid state or not.
The Nazis had many supporters in the world and even in the US and west in general right? The Koch and Bush families for example - to name a couple powerful families who supported the Nazis. And the royal family wore Swastikas as a joke.
And then after the war Nazi scientists were given sanctuary and immunity in the US in our centers of industry, military, and intelligence.
The underlying dissonance is the idea that a state can be a religious ethnic state but also be at the same time a liberal secular democratic republic.
BINGO
THIS!👆100%!!!!!!
So very well put 👍
I see u trying to connect the dots, israel is not an apartheid state. I live here, and anyone who lives here finds these statements plain stupid. Muslims have the same rights as jews, thats a fact , muslims reach all the positions of power just like jews. Top judges, pariliamebt members in jewish parties and out, key figures in the military. You can theorize as much as u want ,on the ground there is no apartheid.
And yet, the US foreign policy was to fight the Nazis in opposition to the people you mentioned. But al-Husseini, the Mufti of the time, literally met with Hitler to figure out how to best work with the Nazi agenda.
So it's apples to oranges. You're comparing official policy of a government to the beliefs of some private people. It's dishonest and you should be ashamed of your little parlor trick.
If you have to dig so deep in order to find a reason for israel being an apartheid state that should tell you all you need to know. Apartheid is blatant and harsh. The fact is the israeli arabs, whether muslim or christian, enjoy the same rights and privileges that israeli jews enjoy... So much so that an arab israeli judge sentenced a jewish israeli ex-prime minister to prison. In an apartheid state, that would be impossible.
Mr. Broccolini did terrible in this debate
The British defeat of the Ottoman Empire in 1918 thought it gave them the right to sell land an re draw border lines in the middle east.
The defeat of the Ottoman empire was a result of the Arab Revolt. The Brits made a deal with the Arabs in exchange Arabs would claim their own territory. This is probably the real reason for Persians and Arabs not getting. Persians felt betrayed. However the Arabs were betrayed by the British ....twice. 1. Britain made a deal with France for Arab territory without Arabs knowing it...and to the Balfour declaration. Had it not been for the Arabs revolt the Ottomans would not have been defeated.
But british issued Peels Comission which grant Palestinian freedom in thr next 10 years. It mever been realozed but their neighbouring countries get it, like Syria, Lebanon, Egypt-they got the right to self determination from british
The Muslim defeat of the people that were there before thought that it gave them h th he right to sell and redraw border lines in the middle east and wherever else the Muslim and Ottoman empire extended. That’s how Constantinople became Istanbul, genius. Exactly the same. True in both cases. Yes, wars are not fought with blood and treasure spent for things to stay the same as before the war. Why else bother?
And they also promised it to the Saudi's. Winning a war doesn't mean you get to do ethnic cleansing on a land. You just own the land.
The british fucked over the Palestinians by promising them their own state hood if they revolted against the ottomans which led to the arab revolt speeding up the defeat of the ottomans. Then the sykes picot agreement happened.
The Balfour declaration, or any post colonial declaration for that matter, are merely words that hold no currency as to the contemporary disagreement of people on the ground.
Yep
If you analize today
And dress it on the past
You can see similarities
Politicians all over the world lie and manipulate all the time
Like always
So why politician of the past need to be considered as angels of pure truth
you must be joking ! it gave the green light for more people to go on THAT ground in the first place. I am from a country that was colonized and post colonial declaration of our independance shaped the whole futur of our country and we're still dealing with its consequences to this day .
@@amaneehmeh8756 Your point being?
Rabbani is very impressive. Very clear in his thoughts and very articulate. Not sure what Destiny is doing here.....clearly outmatched in all departments other than maybe talking too fast.
He's there because of his popularity and how many kids he brainwashed.
Yes I don’t understand why Burrelli is sitting there… very incoherent.
Rabbani spews horse shit from his mouth, but as long as he’s saying what you want to hear it’s okay
@@user-dt1zx8mr3x I cannot claim the validity of his points, especially when it comes to every single detail of the historical context of this issue. That said, after watching the whole debate, it's pretty clear that Norman and Rabbani had significantly stronger points. The other guys just sounded like they were trying to come up with ridiculous reasons for justifying Israel's brutality, which has been going on for years.
@@MuhammadWaqas-zv6qz I felt like norm and rabbani were doing the same. To be honest the brutality of Israel has been horrendous but so has Hamas’s. And the reality is that the Palestinians support Hamas. I feel like picking a side in this conflict is ignorant if you can’t recognize how both sides have committed atrocities and both have reason to hate each other.
22:45 he was just a young terrorist man. There are so many great quotes from this show.
A young terrorist became Prime Minister and the country became a utopia and lived happily ever after with it's neighbors. The end 😂😂😂
almost shit myself when he said that.
Interesting how many young terr0rists rose to become Prime Minister of I$rael
😂 let it go, he was just a young terrorist but accept our stretched arguments of how Palestinians were responsible for the holocaust.
Zionism is simply indefensible.
Was Palestine the only safe place ?. Mr Morris doesn't have any answers
“The biggest insult to the memory of the Holocaust is not denying it but using it as an excuse to commit genocide against the Palestinian people.”
Norman Finkelstein
*Antisemite Norman Finkelstein
@@w0lov these days everyone is an antisemite ... if you are pro israel you are antisemitic against palestinians...if you are pro palestine you are antisemitic against jews
If Norm Finkelstein believes this, he needs to change his view on being pro-ethnic cleansing immediately.
@@w0lov nothing wrong with that
Keep crying 😂😂😂😂
"YOU DIDNT READ HIM I READ HIM" "HES SITTING RIGHT HERE"
Yeah, and he was lying about what his previous words meant because they go against what he espouses today. Why is that so hard for Destiny fans to grasp?
Norm was so frustrated with this because Benny was obfuscating and denying things he knew was true.
And shame on Lex for allowing that.
@@TheOldGuest bruh, you can go read it yourself. the entire paragraph talks about the violence of Arabs against Jews being the reason for it.
@@TheOldGuesti read books, you react to youtube debate clips. we are not the same.
@@TheOldGuest you can't possibly know if he was lying unless you can read minds, which you don't. Norm took quotes out of context and tried to assign them his own meaning instead of asking Benny to clarify his words. Keep coping partisan hack.
Why is Destiny apart of this? Does he have any expertise on this subject we aren’t aware of?
No idea, he's a joke. He shouldn't be there.
He was willing to take part and the decision of inviting him or not was up to Lex, I imagine je will address this in the near future since so many comments qre asking the same question
Spent months reading about the conflict, verifying sources and debating people on the subject, anyone who spends enough time studying a specific topic and has valid questions about it can participate in conversations. And from what I can see he has a better understanding on the topic than Finkelstein at least
@@ivanabibe160 Lmao you cant be serious, regardless of political positions, you cant tell me there was none from the right more informed than a youtuber that has been studying a 75 years conflict for “months” 😭😭
@@ivanabibe160🤣🤣🤣 You can't be serious! Finklestein has been a scholar all his life! No one else is seeing what you're seeing here.
Lol this was a debate between three people and a reddit gremlin in the corner speaking up at random interrums
Exactly! 🙄
He literally fits every reddit stereotypes down to the bekng cucked.
Curious choice of thumbnail, Lex
Right, no bias from Mr. Mossad
its a real picture showing the subject of this clip? nothing more too it defneding whats displayed much?
Its not a coincidence @@doroncohen259 that he chose a picture that painted starving people as Nazis. It is pure bias, wether or not your hasbara programming allows you to see it as such.
Benny Morris:" British mandate Palestine was the safest place for Jews to flee to"
Also Benny Morris:" Arab Palestinians were horrible and hostile towards Jews ,they even met with Hitler"
Me : come again
The original plan was to send them to Madagascar 🤓
I bet Germany and Soviet Russia was cozy💀
Vatican also was celebrating hitler birthday I think Israel have the right to build settlement there
@@youngscholarslibrary and how about US ? UK? Australia? Canada? South America? South Africa? Those countries wouldn't have been safe for Jews also?
besides of the english speaking world, palestine was the safest place as the brits made sure the palestinians dont commit too many massacres against the jews. they didnt manage to prevent 1921 and 1929 massacres of the arab grand rebellion,they sure fought hard to engable it. it sure was the safest place for jews across the middle east,because there jews could bear weapons to protect themselves. the jews of baghdad in 1941,jews of tripoli and egypt in 1945,jews of aden and alepoo in 1947 couldnt protect themselves.
They are having a good conversation until minute 19:20, when mr Burrelli accuses finkelstein of lying and misrepresenting a book of benny morris... he didn't read it, at most he knows the summary of wikipedia.
I get why finkelstein got triggered.
Because he is an insecure manchild incapable of having constructive dialogue? There is literally an hour before this of clip of Finklestein adhoming destiny out of nowhere, then when Destiny simply calls him out for lying, you're on Norm's side? You're insane. Benny literally agrees with Destiny's interpretation over fecalstains.
Finklestein got triggered because he’s a nut
But... Destiny *did* read it. And Norm *was* misrepresenting it because he wouldn't give the full quote, he'd just give half of it and then accuse Morris of lying.
i am referring to this clip, not whatever cope talking point you heard . There is no discussion about UN around my timestamp.
@@afterglow5285 they are arguing that Benny Morris tried to downplay a terrorist's actions. Morris is explaining that there is a difference in a man elected to be leader forty years after his actions as a young terrorist. Where exactly does Destiny accuse anyone of lying here? Cause in that timestamp he doesn't say anything about lying.
why the fuck is destiny even there
He is Zionist plant
Welcome to the social media era, people like destiny, Shapiro, that blond bimbo, and Hassan etc would have been laughed into obscurity 30 years ago.
Probably so norm could insult someone else rather than spending 5 hours misquoting benny to his face.
@@areichental no it’s because he has a humiliation fetish
@@areichentalCope for your debate daddy. Destiny got rolled
Mouin Rabbani impressive
✔✔✔✔✔✔✔✔✔✔✔✔✔✔✔✔✔✔✔✔
That gamer guy only takes his eyes off the screen to completely derail the debate
"You guys are trying to claim...." when the "guys" are quoting the text.
Why is Destiny a part of this grown up discussion?
superiority complex exhibit 3
4 the clicks
"10 years later, all of the sudden..." yeah, he said that 😂
but that is a grammatically correct way to say: "nothing happened for so many years, and then all of a sudden one day xyz happened"
Dont bother explaining to youtube idiots who have no ability to think for themselves
@@_Noopy_ yeah, i mean. Everything eventually happens all of the sudden. In this sentence however he assumes that during 10 years there was no relection whatsoever regardless a later change of mind on a specific issue.
thats not the dunk that you think it is chief
@@FullOnMetalHead1995it’s not that deep chief
Wish there was a moderator let one person speak at a time and then let there be a counterpoint.
The British had always secretly "support" both sides against the other side and at the same time sow animosity between them. Divide and rule.
Muslims and Jews had been living in peace for centuries until the British arrived. It was the same in India and all over their empire.
Living “in peace” as obedient, second-class citizens-or else…
Please don't bring India into this conversation as Indian history is long and complicated and while there were periods of peace between communities there were also periods of strife and conflict. The British did not make Tippu Sultan the Muslim ruler of the Kingdom of Mysore intern the Christians. Nor did the British make Hyder Ali (Tippu Sultan's father) usurp the Hindu Wadiyar dynasty which had rule Mysore for centuries going back to 1399.
@@roundedges2 Right, often the Jews were the second class citizens in those Arab nations. But yes, there was relative peace for hundreds of years, a long long time ago.
I was a linecook in a restaurant in northern Israel some 17 years ago, the kitchen hand was a young arab guy, he asked me why the boss was always jewish and the kitchen hand was always arab. I told him that for many years the boss was arab and the kitchen hand was jewish and now it changed, and it might change again one day and again one day. He understood.
Saying that, before I was a line cook I was a kitchen hand at an arab restaurant, so there are exceptions, naturally.
Ok I know very little about the Palestinian situation but you make it very clear you know absolutely fuck all about the history of India. Please respect your own ignorance
It’s your Prime Minister … Irrelevant …😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Destroyed 😅
'someone who was a terrorist everybody hated in his 20s became a prime minister 40 years later when he changed his values, checkmate zionists'
"You cant just hold people to what they have said!"
Destiny is so out of place 😂😂
well yeah every time he tries to say something norm lashes out "MR BERNOULLI, MR BORELLI YOU READ 2 WIKIPEDIA ENTRIES"
@yakinthebox well yeah, imagine having to debate someone against something you've made your life work. Versus, someone who had to do some online research before showing up.
@@yakintheboxseems like a bit of an over exaggeration…he did it twice but apparently it was enough to pierce right through your feelings so you’re here complaining about it. A video game streamer vs a scholar….
People who's life work it is are too close to the problem. That's why outsiders come in to clean up companies, they dont have all the personal time investment and scruples with other academics. Norm is threatened by destiny so he belongs there
It's so funny how all of the Dinklestern fans have been spamming comments like this over and over, and yet I've never seen a single one be able to say what Destiny is wrong about. They either just shout/cry/defecate their pants or repeat the word "Wikipedia" and think that makes it look like they have an effective rebuttal 😂
Round 2 pls!
09:52 that's very similair to what happened to the Algerians under french occupation, you see after jews fled spain during Visigothic persecutions and during the spanish reconquista, many of them settled in Morroco and Algeria... and under the French occupation many Jews sided with the occupation and were even offered French citizenship in return... and after the Algerian Independence, they opted en masse to be repatriated to France... some still live in Algeria and Morocco under Muslim rule Till this day (they're called Pied-Noir or the Black Feet)
because as bad as the french were, they were a hell of a lot better to the jew than were the muslim supremacists
Jews in Algeria were given citizenship by the French back in the 19th century, and before that, they would have been living as second class citizens or Dhimmis. So it's not surprising that some of them sided with the French.
Of course, not all of them did, but the FLN still stripped them of citizenship, so they ended up having to leave.
@@robfl100 The point here is the Jews sided with the french occupation similarly to what happened in Palestine under the british occupation.. even though they were dhimmis meaning protected by the state to freely practice their religion and have full protection under the muslim rule they even had lower tax rates than the muslims..
@@truelies5431 You said "even though they were dhimmis meaning protected by the state to....."
Protected by the state in the same way that local businesses pay "protection" money to the mafia i.e. to get "protection" from what the mafia would do to them if they didn't pay the protection money.
@@disdoncable No, ذمة can also be used on the kids and the wife... for example in arabic we say your wife is under you "dhimma" means you are fully responsible for her well being.. so the dhimmi people means the non muslims who the state MUST take care of.. or they will face punishment by God
My mum is 92. She saw and heard one of the IDF on screen, Mr Lerner, and spent a week panicking that the real Nazi's are back. Mum has dementure. She needed sedative. We are British and Australian. Mum never looked at israel, never spoke their name.
What a weirdo, mum might need put down doesn't seem like she's all there
Compelling
Wow how did she feel about israel did she have knowledge of them I've been studying them for 40 years I lived with them in brooklyn I observed there ways your mum was around much longer than I she should have vast knowledge of them
Cool story bro.
🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱❤️❤️❤️
@@hmmmmmmminteresting cowards
Wow. A schmorgasborg of a conversation.
Smorgasbord, chef.
Two groups of people who arrived with absolutely zero intention to listen to the other
Smorgasbord: a buffet offering a variety of hot and cold meats, salads, h'ors doeuvres, etc. ( Yummy! )
Alt: a wide range of something.
In this case, a wide range of opinions, perspectives and observations. ( Yummy! )
@@bloodriguez7550 Smörgåsbord.
Why is Mr. Borelli even allowed in on this debate?
Who inserted the swastika?
It's real photo
@@John-bravooo
Sure, from Kensington Palace.
Lex the rebtile did that.
@@alaanasser3243he doesn’t make his own thumbnails
Palestinians
Why is Destiny so propped up?
Lex moderated this horribly. Finkelstein spent more time trashtalking destiny and Morris than debating. He was also screaming half the podcast.
I don't care the reasons why Lex didn't want to intervene, it was a bad call. Finkelstein acts as a child, and should be moderated. At least Rabbani behaved like an adult.
So these comments are "why destiny" with literally not a single argument anywhere against his actual arguments or points. This is a real time feed of people being exposed to opposing views for what reads like the first time ever.
Keep doing these debates Lex, well done for doing this. You'll get people talking instead of outrage at all opposition
Because they’re all addressed in the podcast, there is only so many times one can say “Destiny is making things up and going against the dozens of reports from the UN and human right groups” because he wants to be a contrarian and meat ride the IDF, and act dumb
Okay, here's one argument for you to ignore: Destiny's point about the 4 children was a lie - as Norm points out, there were journalists there that saw it was a fishing shack. And even if the kids were leaving the super secret compound (they weren't), they're still CHILDREN.
You mean the girl that was on his iPad looking through Wikipedia while the other men had it memorized?
He wasn’t even listening half the time because he needed to google most of the topics.
It was embarrassing
@@TheOldGuestwasn't a "lie".
And again, these are drone strikes. Maybe you didn't pay attention at all when they explained that A. Drones can't really tell children from adult and B. That call came from the top.
If you think a call to spend several million dollars worth of ordinance to kill 4 random kids came from the top, then you're slower than I thought
I didn't know Destiny is Italian, I thought he was Cuban.
He should go by the moniker Manifest Destiny.
@@WUWHereI love finding comments just dunking on that dumb ass. Thank you for your contribution.
@@WUWHere Would definitely fit his politics...
Mouin's demeanor during this debate was absolutely excellent and it shows the training he has received over decades to keep his calm while discussing these matters with people who cannot admit to facts, history, or the literal words they have said. He and Norm did an excellent job in adequately addressing the idiocy coming from the guys who spoited the words, "I don't care" a million times during the debate. They simply do not care about any perspective other than their own.
Mouin is my hero now, calm and knowledgeable.
I think he was too polite, within the debate i saw like this too morons on the israeli side claiming all the nonsenses without any shame, and to opposite this lie a liked how professor Fl just insult them to clarify they really essence. Sorry for my english, it is third language
Agreed. His calmness and demeanor is unmatched, even when constantly interrupted.
Didn't appreciate his throwing around "white supremacy" at the end though just because he had a disagreement over Jim Crow.
Generally speaking, I hate that everything is a f’n debate. That always makes it only about winning the debate and never about actually discussing things in a productive manner. They’re just waiting for their turn to speak and ways to counter what the other person is saying. It seems like no one ever actually truly listens to what the other is saying. They only hear that they mentioned this, now I can say that. SMH It’s why we have many of the same problems we had 100 yrs ago.
Yep, Destiny did not learn or absorb a single fucking thing, even though he was in a room with someone who has literally spent his entire adult life studying Gaza/Palestine (Finklestein). So, so gross. Always just waiting for his turn to shriek HAMAS over and over again. He knows fuck all about the topic, zero insight or understanding of history and yet he acts smug AF.
You are talking about motor moth, the other three did listen to one another.
@@katpuss6564 Are you nuts? The guy got talked over and interrupted extremely rudely in this for hours, until the interim where Lex and Benny talked about how Mr Morelli should return the favour and be hostile back
It's funny because the same people who say debates aren't productive, are cheering on finkel using ad hominems and are cheering on finkel refusing to engage because he is a "streamer"
@@mcbltgaming3694Ad homs in response to someone calling him a liar and stating he's misrepresenting a book that the accuser didn't even read. Justified in my opinion.
Really good points being made here, but there should be some control on the cross talk, I don't know how, maybe give each side a limited time to speak and stick to it. Easier said than done, I know!
Norman and his partner were very informative, and I appreciate the other two guys.
It's not as if sunak has any influence on Israeli policy he's just using it as a wedge issue to cause division
This was the debatest debate of all time.
Great overview and analysis, especially Norman Finkelstein. Pro Israel debaters gave very illogical and inaccurate points. This is why they can never win the argument, as they can never justify their position to anyone with common sense.
And constantly fear the points about to be made and interrupt. They must be taught this.
It was very enlightning - please do watch it if as it as one of the few discussions that is laying out the sentiments and facts - some disputer and some agreed upon.
17:00 “ugh you like to quote things” that maybe my favorite line
"He changed his mind"×5
I was absolutely perplexed by Morris' response to Finkelstein quoting Morris's literary work. Morris is a historian with more than one book under his belt. He shouldn't be surprised that people quote his work back at him when his current statements seem, at least to Finkelstein, to contradict his previous statements.
People can certainly change their minds over time, but doing so selectively, and without acknowledging it, does give rise to others calling it out.
Lex, thank you for your effort to try to talk it out
yeah, thanks Lex ... now please go back to playing your guitar.
Just wondering why a bisexual video game streamer is part of the conversation
Diversity :). Can’t have 4 white straight males in a room without getting harassed these days
Ad hominems. Being finklesteinns water boy has its symptoms.
Because apparently being a "historian" like Norman is worth absolutely jack shit.
That's a good question, but what does his sexual preverence have to do with anything?
More ad homs. Just like this "historian".
That one Joker sounds like Carl Sagan
Why is destiny involved in this debate?
Why is Norman?
Because Lex is trying to grift Destiny's viewership
@@garethlewis1984 Norm is a political researcher, Rabanni is a Middle East analyst, Morris is a historian….. and Destiny is a streamer with zero credentials. He’s clearly out of his element.
@@thenoseyskeptiche's representing a "populistic" mainstream point of view which is almost everytime ridiculous
He's clearly out his depth. That's why Destiny showed more knowledge after 3 months of research than a guy who's been studying his whole adult life, and was able to catch Norman out using quotes out of context that he didn't even understand. I don't think you seem to realise that citing Norman's credentials is more of a damning indictment than it is actual praise. Because for someone with so many credentials, his performance in this debate was utterly embarrassing.@@thenoseyskeptic
What a mess
The fact that Destiny could even get a seat on the table is shocking
Good point about speeding up Norman's speech. I've been doing it for a long time.
This escalated beautifully...Love it
Mr Burrelli has got much to say 😂
Destiny thinks he is smarter and more well read than Norman F.
😂😂😂😂
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Finkelstein is a lunatic. If you watched Destiny prepare for this debate you know that he approached this discussion with humility. Finkelstein, however was the first to lobby personal insults at his advisory’s.
@@Ksean29”Humility?” Destiny? Laughable. He studied talking points and claimed early on he hoped for the extermination of all Palestinians in Gaza
If we are quoting, from the LA Times, "After a century of excavations trying to prove the ancient accounts true, archeologists say there is no conclusive evidence that the Israelites were ever in Egypt, were ever enslaved, ever wandered in the Sinai wilderness for 40 years or ever conquered the land of Canaan under Joshua's leadership."
So, this is the supposedly respected, highly intelligent historian that many supporters keep referring to as some kind of titan of knowledge and intellect?
Finkelstein is just a bigger joke than I ever could have anticipated.
Just specifically listen to the part where they argue about Benny blaming Palestine on not accepting Jews trying to escape the holocaust.
He says they refused to take them, without context of why. He makes the claim that because of this they were responsible for holocaust deaths.
Across the table they ask why American and the UK isn't responsible when they also refused to take in Jews escaping the holocaust and his response is, "They didn't want to take Jews." As if this somehow explains a different situation or set of circumstances.
There is no point in a discussion with these people when basic simple things cannot be agreed upon. They will constantly interrupt and when put in a corner, they will face the wall and deny it's a wall.
You cannot defend Israel to the level they do, unless they are biased and making bad arguments. Thats not to say Hamas is good or anything but the two parties both have violent leadership
@@olo_smooth_olo5606Absolutely. Their arguments are fundamentally wrong. There is nowhere they can start from in history and paint themselves as the good guys or the victims.
They created Hamas by their own behavior, just like every other resistance group in history has been created by the oppression of the people it's imposed upon. Think tanks, intelligence agencies and many studies have come to this conclusion. We know this.
Israel ignore this knowledge and try to deter resistance by terror. It doesn't work.
18:45 even professor Morris couldn’t help but laugh
“i am careful with everything i say”
“mr. tortellini”
😂😂😂🤡🤡🤡 this is your best scholar?
@@randomkyle3 you're coping so hard.
He clearly doesn't give a shit about Destiny, as most reasonable and normal people should
@@randomkyle3he's careful with what matters. Destiny doesn't matter.
@@randomkyle3 He chooses words carefully to anything that matters. Mr.Tortellini clearly doesn't matter 😂
@@jergin4596 And that says a whole lot about Norm
Destiny brings up a key (and likely most important) aspect of genocide - dolus specialis. Norm tries to sound "smart" and naively says "no, that's men's raya".
Instead of actually learning something for a change, he going off on some moronic rant, when he clearly doesn't even seem to have a clue on the definition of genocide.
That's beyond embarrassing.
What does destiny have to add to this conversation? I'll answer my own question.
Nothing
The Zionists are gonna use everyone that will do them good. Density just talk fast and believe he is right
Why is Destiny here with a series people having this conversation he is the ultimate contrarian.
A colonial power gave someone else’s land away.
Is that in any way moral?
Would you personally resist such a thing?
That’s all I want to know. Especially from people who support Ukraine
Who's land was it first? (if you want to play that game)
the “palestinians” ppl. name one palestinian king queen 100, 200,300…or 1000 years ago. there isn’t one. but there was king david king solomon that jews can relate to the land. when a jew comes home arab colonizers have issues. but central asian colonized jerusalem n the land sround it they were ok w it. this tells me they hate jews period.
1. They did not have a state.
2. They could have accepted the two state solutionm
3. They could have not attacked in late 47.
4. They fled.
In other words, there was no Palestinian state. They rejected the 2 state partition, they then attacked the jews, they then fled and lost the war and until today they still cry about it and call it the nakba. Meanwhile the jews have been kicked out of their land, then kicked out of almost every other place they wound up, then the holocaust happened, then they finaly came back to their home land. All along jews have always looked forward and rebuilt, they didnt cry about being opressed and demanded to be treated as refugees forever. They rebuilt. Meanwhile Palestinians have been enslaved by their arabic shia masters and their cause has been taken over by corrupt leadership who does not care about their well being but serve the foreign imperialistic intrests of Iran.
@@gk8334then by extension let’s talk about the us, Hawaii, Texas, Guam, Panama,Puerto Rico I would like to know your views on South Africa and Zimbabwe as well. Both Muslims and Jews lived there forever no one person has claim to that land neither does such claims justify genocide and ethnic cleansing.
@@JJ-qc6lh There was no state but there were people who were the original residents of the region, unlike the newly arriving immigrants that lived in isolated settlements and formed terrorist militias.
12:50 beware of the illusion of knowledge and have no fear in zemblanity
Eating these clips up. I know Norm from The Adam Friedland Show #TAFS
As someone who never really has been involved in this issue and was looking for an education on it I was really disappointed. This guy Finkelstein talks so slow and whenever someone makes a point he changes the subject or calls them names. I found him to be really rude and dishonest and it made me think he wasn't dealing in good faith.
The leverage game is written all over the place. You're all being played.
Watched entire thing. Excellent I wish Lix would have facilitated when they were screaming. Can’t hear. Nothing gets clarified. And no name calling allowed. NF should not be allowed to insult another debater. 🤯
Did he say if israel would nuke gaza its still not qualified as a genocide? Please tell me I heard that wrong
Lock these guys in a room for 10,000 years and they will still come out arguing. What a nightmare
Hope people can see how vicious and disturbing this debate is, and the very real role that historical scholarship plays in shaping public opinion. Hopefully it will inspire genuine ppl to become historians, Cos trust me a lot of the academics running the show in the supposedly 'left' humanities right now are mostly just concerned about prestige and money and are very questionable.
This is not a debate
These are 2 scholars talking to 2 toddlers.
Why does UA-cam add context for ‘Holocaust’, yet does not do the same for ‘Nakba’? Oh…western bias….
23:50
Mouin: "Was Palestine the only spot of land on earth (jews could emigrate to) ?
Morris: "Yes, basically.."
This has to be a joke. Morris can't be serious.
*Most Zionists do not believe in the existence of God, but they believe that He promised them Palestine*
- Ilan Pappé
The spot was planned
Literally the truth, tons of stories a out jews being stopped from immigrating
Does it matter to you that he's right? In the years leading up to and during WWII there was literally no place on earth that would take the hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees except Palestine under the Brits, against the wishes of the Arabs. That includes the US.
It was the most realistic place to establish a country to guarantee their safety after the actual Holocaust.
It doesn’t matter if somewhere else was even better. Britain owned the land. They did what they wanted with the land. Palestine was a region not a country.
Why was Destiny on this panel? Moderator interruptus?
Gaza and the Warsaw ghetto have things in common. Both surrounded by a superior force which controls what goes in and out. Both people's have been the victims of ethnic cleansing. Both had an uprising which saw the levelling of building by building with wanton killing of non combatants. Outside of that comparisons Germany had the idea of Lebensraum and Portions of the Israeli population have the idea of a Greater Israel, hence 700,000 illegal settlers in the west bank. If there are Jews who haven't made this comparison then they are blind and deaf
How exactly have Gazans suffered from ethnic cleansing? I really want to understand your viewpoint, but it just seems so utterly ridiculous to me.
@@sashafarber617 Gazans are the children of Palestinians refused the right of return post 1948 War. That was an act of ethnic cleansing by any standard. Is there an argument for an attempt at ethnic cleansing now? I would point to 700,000 illegal settlers in the west bank and attempts by those settlers to settle in Northern Gaza a few weeks ago. The destruction of Gazan infrastructure could also be classed as an attempt to chase palestinians from Gaza as well as high civilian deaths. Add to this the popularity of a " greater israel" arising. If you look at other occupied land, beyond the boundaries of the 1948 border, those lands also have Israeli settlers. I know the excuse to keep that land is defensive in nature but if that's the real excuse why allow it to be settled? The obvious conclusion is it's never going to be given back
@@sashafarber617search up the term ethnic cleaning first, even before Oct 7 this is Israel policy, but as we speak Gazans are resorting to eating grass and lemon to feed because Israel refuses to let aid trucks come in if that doesn’t fit your definition on ethnic cleansing idk what will.
@@spartacusforlife1508Great explanation, but these peoples hearts are blind if they don’t see the videos they surely saw South Africa’s case at the ICJ, they are choosing to ignore evidence and take any deniability as absolute fact.
Why does it feel like *not all* Jews feel entitled to certain thing because of religion
this will never end. Don't waste a moment of your life on these 2 countries. Ignore them both.
Seems reasonable
Gaza isn't a country
Gigachad answer tbh
@@ipadbossbaby4558the chad move of uhhhh ignoring history, learning and forming opinions vs rotting your brain on youtube
Norman Finkelstein destroyed him😂