Norman Finkelstein on antisemitism and Arab resistance | Israel-Palestine Debate and Lex Fridman
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- Опубліковано 15 бер 2024
- Lex Fridman Podcast full episode: • Israel-Palestine Debat...
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GUEST BIO:
Norman Finkelstein and Benny Morris are historians. Mouin Rabbani is a Middle East analyst. Steven Bonnell (aka Destiny) is a political livestreamer.
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Full podcast episode: ua-cam.com/video/1X_KdkoGxSs/v-deo.html
Lex Fridman podcast channel: ua-cam.com/users/lexfridman
Guest bio: Norman Finkelstein and Benny Morris are historians. Mouin Rabbani is a Middle East analyst. Steven Bonnell (aka Destiny) is a political livestreamer.
You demean the subject matter under discussion and disrespect Finklestein and Rabbani with this, Lex. You should be ashamed of yourself. The money-lenders plying their trade in the Temple on the Sabbath are a metaphor for men like you and Piers Morgan. You are not only profiting from a genocide being waged on _religious_ grounds, you are attempting to prolong support for it by bringing on a 'celebrity' whom is ignorant of the history, the politics and religion surrounding the subject in order to weaponize his popular appeal for the purpose of increasing _support_ for genocide.
You are guilty of a very grave crime, Lex, and you should be held to account for it. And if I were you, I would _pray_ that there is no hell in which I could burn for eternity because believe me, you have certainly _earned_ a place there.
Norman Finklestein, however, _will_ abide with God if it _is_ the case that your prayers do not fall on _deaf_ ears. If God _is_ listening, pal, you are doomed.
I just have respect for the jews because of jews like norman finkelstein and gideon levy (his speech on israel was bombastic good and not sugar coating anything) because they are the true humans whose heart is made from gold but for the zionist jews i lost every respect.
this had to be one of the most useless discussions on the conflict in Israel that I’ve ever heard. What was accomplished here?
This comments sections is heavily censored. It's almost as if Lex doesn't want to be revealed as the pro-genocide quisling he truly is.
@@undercoveragent9889 Ya he edits all the interviews too and cuts out things he doesnt want people to hear.
Why is the expectancy on Pælestinians to give up everything and get nothing
because they're losing. Every nation to ever lose a conflict accepted it but the Palestinian
@@thatguywhohassomethingtosa3513 Because Native Americans just stfu and are not still complaining.
The british or the othmans?
@@thatguywhohassomethingtosa3513Maybe also God doesn't want any more gay parades on the holy land
@@thatguywhohassomethingtosa3513you’re a Neanderthal
2 historians, one journalist and one gamer guy walk into a room........
Quit steaIing comments from other threads.
Calling finkelstein a historian is a bit of a stretch, terrorist sympathiser is more accurate
@@fritznovak4482 IDF are the terrorists.
@@fritznovak4482
Imagine believing the whole "terrorist" thing in 2024. You might have American Evengicals brain washed, but that's about it.
@@fritznovak4482Well shiit then I’m a terrorist sympathiser too if he is one after reading thousands of books on the subject while you are with mum watching Fox News with Doritos crumbs on your chest 😅
Why is Destiny even in this debate?
Just for celebrity recognition. Benny Morris does all the heavy lifting though but most people don't recognize him.
@@captainchadapparelaccessor6556 Damn bro that's crazy, now go take ur meds 😂
@@captainchadapparelaccessor6556 That's not my read on it, but to each their own 🤷🏼♂
My thoughts exactly.
Does a better than job than Finkelstein at recollecting evidence and history.
Destiny having to constantly refer to his IPad to find other peoples reddit comments.
finkle was reading from his own books to quote the only historian and the only person who speaks and reads Hebrew in the room benny morris who had to be stopped by lex to tell him to argue the issues with the man not just throw out quotes and destiny was reading from the ICJ REPORT but ok keep up the cope.
all of you are just showing the sane people how insane most of you are your literally championing finkle for adhom attacks on destiny like he put forward some compelling evidence against any of destiny's arguments
You're literally insane. I can tell you're a destiny fan, because outside of his fan base, nobody takes this man-child seriously.
You talk about coping? but you're the one who's upset people are clowning on a guy named destiny 😂
There is not a single legitimate institution academic, journalistic, or governmental that would entertain anything destiny has to say. And then there's you. Go sip some milk my guy.
@@chrishernandez8504 The ICJ? The court that found that Israel is "plausibly committing a g*noc*de in Palestine"? That ICJ? Lmao found another Destiny bootlicker
@@chrishernandez8504it’s hilarious you think you’re not a deranged lunatic
@@chrishernandez8504 literal L takers hard coping calling it Ad Hominem. He didn't discredit Destiny's argument because he insulted him, he insulted him because Destiny's argument was garbage. Cherry picking points without ever looking at a bigger picture. Literal reddit brain rot.
The calm of mr Rabanni impresses me 😊
Especially when you realize hes the only palestinian in the room being told by zionists about how barbaric and unhuman palestinians and arabs in general are… he literally cant react emotionally or he proves those assholes right
fr. he was definitely the most impressive one here.
Worst hand gestures ever by Mr. Borello
😅😂
WHY IS THIS SO FUNNY
The worst part is that i dont think norm was being intentionally disrespectful when he kept calling him that 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
True, but that´s also what everone else on this panel are doing. @@aj-zt8br
Thought it was Borelli
"Aurora Borealis!? At this time of year, at this time of day, in this part of the country, localized entirely within Lex Friedman's Kitchen!?"
Why was the onus on Palestinians to accept giving up ANY of their land to outsiders?
They sold it
@@zvk3059Some did, many many did not. Listened to Norm and Mouin carefully articulate this in the debate with evidence
The Jews are not outsiders. They are the indigenous people of that land. The Arabs were historically tenants on land that was owned for centuries by absentee Turkish landlords. The Jews bought land from the actual owners of that land, made it flourish, and that encouraged others, especially Arabs, to immigrate. Of the two groups, only one wants to live in peace in their ancestral homeland, while being surrounded by people that want to exterminate them. The Arabs that surround them want to destroy Israel and exterminate all the Jews.
The Jews accepted the partition as proposed by the UN. The Arabs rejected it...left VOLUNTARILY on the encouragement of the Arab nations, who went to war with Israel...and lost. You lose a war that you start, then you get to live with the consequences. Israel is not going anywhere and they are fighting for their very existence in the only place they can truly call home. The Arabs there can either accept that, leave, or die.
@@leonardruggiero2457and the people that did were still targeted? Imagine buying a house and being shot for it lol
Because it wasn’t “their land”. They didn’t have a country or state there.
They occupied roughly 15% of the land total when the Zionists started settling.
"There was no Arab acceptance of a Jewish state to exist." - Destiny
"Of course not." - Rabbani
Yeah, there's the double standard.
That's fine if Arabs don't want to share a land with Jews but Jews who want a state with majority Jews so it would be a Jewish state is an indication of evil. The Arabs, as they all said were no interested in any Jews there, definitely no Jewish state so having them as majority citizens would be a real security risk.
Yeah of course not, not at the expense of the Arabs being expelled from their land.
Based Arabs
For a Jewish majority state to exist in a place where Jews are not already a majority requires mass displacement to clear the land for settlers. This is an immoral action central to the founding of the Israeli state which didn't even let non jews vote until 1967 and still discriminates against them to this day.
The fact that most zionists actually argue like this makes Arabs bad is Shocking, the Arabs did what any nation in the world would have done, And the likes of morons like Destiny argue that the Arabs are somehow to blame for not wanting a Jewish state to be built on top of their own land and that they deserve to lose their homeland and territory after.
When you argue from the point that the correct stance for the Arabs was to sit back, lose their land and do nothing, then you've already lost, no one in their right mind would argue for this.
Bit of a blanket statement saying all non Jews harbour a degree of antisemitism.
Yeah. What does that say about him? He's dishonest, that is certain and not a great debater here. But certainly has got a twisted view on reality.
Simply untrue and surprised he said it but then he says many surprising things!
Not in the Arab world. Anti-semitism is part of their culture.
They are utterly desperate for people to be anti-semitic. Otherwise they have nothing to hang on to (not that they have anything to hang on to in the first place).
Yeah because he's a massive one and everyone he is around is one.
Why would there be acceptance of a Jewish state to exist, why would Palestinians EVER agree to live under a "Jewish" state, how can a Jewish state be Jewish if it is majority non-Jewish if Palestinians were allowed to live there? Can anyone explain how this even makes sense?
Because most people are secular and not religious and yet we have basically accepted that the Middle East reality is Arab-Muslim ruled in over 20 countries, and yet the one tiny nation that purports to be "Jewish" and in fact more tolerant than most countries ON THIS PLANET, is constantly demonized and blamed for the Palestinian Situation. Newsflash: Jews have the right to their own nation like the Cherokee Nation or the Armenian Nation or the South African Nation. That anybody in this world wants to take a camera and zoom-in on Israel instead of doing the same thing with a country like China and its hostility toward Tibet and Taiwan or Iranian Islamists who oppress over 80 million ordinary citizens of Iran who just want to live in peace is absolutely their choice.
If you care about living in a Civilized World, then you would support the Israeli Cause. Jews may have to accept living as a minority in Palestine, which will of course change the nature of the Knesset, but until both sides decide they want peace more than war, the Palestinians will suffer horrifically and the Israelis will continue to live under threat.
The same way Jews throughout the Middle east for centuries accepted to live under Islamic dominance but with the exception being that Israel exented democratic citizenship and voting rights to Muslims as opposed to Muslim states whose idea of toleration of a Jewish minority did not extend to conferring citizenship of any kind to its Jewish minority ever!
Absolutely! Personally, I think those who call Israel a "cancer" to the Middle East don't see the truth that Israel is actually the cure to the cancer that is the death cult of Islamist Extremism through the Hezbollah and Hamas and Islamic Jihad and ISIS movements. If the world had more countries like Israel, I think we would live in a much better place. @@MrPickledede
@@MrPickledede except the jewish were never a majority in those arab countries
Palestinians never agreed to live under a Jewish state - it was forced upon them by the Brits.
Finkelstein is my hero. The dude knows his opponents book better than he does. "Do you have your book here? On page 137..." 😂😂😂
He is good at reading and bad at judgement
@@youngscholarslibrary100%
@@youngscholarslibrary Yes, far better to concede to the guy who said, "Forget the law," right?
It wasn't as simple as 'ignore the law' u guys are crazy
@@youngscholarslibrary "Judgement" is he supposed to anticipate Morris flip flopping his views and revising his books IN REAL TIME? He is reading what is on the page. Morris is deflecting and straight up lying about what is written in his books. Finklestein literally knows his books better than him.
Dude...that thumbnail was just unhinged 😂😂😂😂
yeah, seems really sus to me tbh...
unrelated, destiny is a fantastic moron
historically accurate representation of them.
@@BennyHarassi someone doesn't have friends. How does it feel having to hide what you really think just to fit in? Racists lead real pathetic lives
@@BennyHarassi Yikes
@@BennyHarassiGoofy
Benny Morris, the man who said the Nakba did not go far enough and the Jewish forces should have expelled more Arabs not saying everything he wrote before has changed.
Compared to finkelstein being pro-hamas, pro-houthi, pro-Charlie hebdo shooting, pro-Russian invasion of Ukraine, psychotically harassing his neighbours, and using his holocaust survivor parents to win debate points. Benny seems alright to me
prove it ... !!! because i disagree with you.
@@emarie0513 go and do some reading if you can
@@emarie0513 Morris is a revisionist not a historian. Go take a hike.
And Norman Finklestein, the man who said he had no sympathy for the victims of the Charlie Hebdo terror attack and compared the journal to Nazi Propaganda.
I'm pretty sure anyone could very quickly find despicable things said by each of the participants in this debate.
Destiny was saying that Finklestein was scared to debate him. It looks like that was nonsense.
I hope this isn't a sample of how Finkelstein performed.
@@eenkjetyep, constantly interrupting, speaking over people, moving the posts, not answering straight questions... it's hard to watch. I'm not sure why people like listening to him
Destiny is only powerful in his goblin autism community
@@PolNqn bc not everyone is a Zionist
@@PolNqnthey didn't watch anything other than primarily twitter clips that are 30s long.
Destiny has been slowly losing his mind since this debate came out 🤣 He really thought a couple weeks worth of "researching" prepared him for a debate like this, when his forte is debating twitch drama
I don't even like Destiny, but you're going to need to do what no one else with your position is doing: point out where Destiny gets owned in this debate. Name calling or saying someone isn't qualified isn't an argument, give me substance where he retorts destiny, proves him wrong or leaves him without an answer.
@@falco1758 sure, when he used the term “binary,” got excoriated, and sat there like a whipped dog bc he adds nothing…how’s that?
He looks like a little boy sitting there on his laptop constantly scrolling and looking away while everyone else is engaged. How embarrassing.
@@thehonesttruth8808 how did he get excoriated?
@@falco1758 every time Destiny 'makes a point' it swiftly refuted by either Finkelstein or Rabbani (name calling aside) (and you should hear the way Destiny talks about Norman on his own stream but that's besides the point) and he never had a response, he's sitting in the corner quietly scrolling through his phone for a lot of the debate. he even contradicts himself and gets things wrong constantly . I watched the podcast alright and that's the conclusion I came to, idk why you feel the need for me to prove something to you when you can watch it as well
destiny looking at the paper like he has notes but hes really looking at his ex-wife's name written over and over with flowers and hearts around it
LMAO Yes and hoping that as he pounds her, the new guy applies lube to himself and winks in his direction.
*I just got a little sick in my mouth... Yuk!
He misses his wife’s boyfriend even more
He called her immediately after this debate. "Did you watch it? Did you see me?"
Destiny is literally the guy who reminded the teacher we had homework.
He’s a disgrace to humanity.
Thats definitely him
هاها منيحة 😂✋️
😂😂😂
Destiny reads the cliffsnotes and presents as somewhat aware....?
I like watching Destiny look up his arguments on Wikipedia in real time in this debate
I dealing in fact's only:) and today nobody can't agree what is the fact's:)))
TBF, its better way than having people talking out of their xxx.
@@doroza2lol which is what destiny was doing. He was severely outclassed as he barely had any knowledge on the subject except for wiki articles and non-corroborated sources.
he was literally reading a UN report verbatim during the debate. Destiny had plenty of primary sources and posted his debate notes which he is actually looking at on his ipad (not fucking wikipedia). you people are so quick to latch onto clickbait stuff like "he just reads wikipedia!!" its pathetic.
@evenmod lmao it sounds like you didnt watch the podcast. The un report discussion was only 20 mins of the 5 and a half hour podcast. Destiny was out of his depth until oct 7 attack part came. Even then, he was reaching on a lot of stuff. Like the nuking gaza isnt genocide (since it wont kill all/most of Palestinians), and brings imbecilic comparisons to japan and ww2. Was half of the japanese population on a small single 25 mile wide stretch of land before america dropped the nuke?
Why do they have Rabbi Schmuley in the thumbnail ? 😂
Goddamn. Cool Adam. What a guy!
I am gay?
😆👍
😅😅😅
Shmuley's face is a hate symbol.
Schmuley is GOATED as fuck, absolute madman. xD
Did destiny get everyones pronouns before the debate?
Wrong guy that’s Hasan. Destiny doesn’t care abt the pronoun shit :/
@@onniramHasan is far more educated on this topic than Destiny though.
2016 wants it's joke back
@7alex683 Cry about it.
@@jl8410There's not much to be educated about. Men have xy woman have xx. Dispense pronouns accordingly
Destiny looks so out of place. It also looks like he felt that way. Not prepared enough , although he thought he was.
He made plenty of perfectly valid claims and arguments, and every time Finklestein responded with insults and condescension
The younger generation is inheriting this stupid war because our ancestors couldn't resolve it. It makes perfect sense that Destiny is on this table. Of the three he was the only who even presented a solution to the conflict while the older gentlemen were pessimistic and doomer pilled.
@@LinusStudios what hallucenogenic drugs have you been imbibing to believe Destiny made valid claims and arguments?
For example, the peaceful match for return was met with chaos. Destiny's attempt to read the very lie packed IDF reason for the attack was so so wrong. He didn't know what happened, didn't do any research and was just reading Wikipedia.
Also, I think the Israel defense team were shrugging a lot of arguments to it doesn't matter. Their standard for morality only mattered when it was Israel. And that set the tone for the whole argument.
Seriously? Having Destiny “debating” Norman Finklestein on Israel-Palestine is ridiculous. It’s like grabbing a kid from the special Olympics playing a one on one with Michael Jordan. It’s absurd.
Yeah Finklestein really didn't do a good job here. I felt kinda bad for him since he seemed frustrated the whole time lol
Odd take considering the only thing Finkelstein accomplished was looking completely unhinged.
You’re just a Finkelstein d rider.
@@acadianalienit seems people care more about someone's temperament than the argument itself. Destiny speaks faster and is calmer, that doesn't mean that he is correct.
No its not. did you even listen to Norman ever. Guy is pure propalestinian propagandist, far from hystorian. Ask him about any other topic in the world and you will see his views: West bad, Russia good, Iran good, america bad and etc..... dont like hypocrits and he is an example of one.
For real, comparing Finklestein to a special olympics kid is probably the most accurate description of how he handled this debate.
Damn! Dr. Norman Finkelstein is just too good for them.
HOW?????
@@njamamanThey are so far out of their league that his points go way over their head as they clutch their pearls over the same dog whistles that simple fools do and circling back to Zionist propaganda as facts because they were published.
Oh hey destiny fanboy, @@njamaman
@@ptgrheud o hello Hasan! How is the fight against evil West going?
@@njamaman No seriously this mf was unbearable the whole time
Destiny doesn't seem to understand most of this conversation. He doesn't know the history and it shows.
Elaborate
@@Pink_saucethey never do
What did he say that was untrue?
He knows his notes and relies on rhetorical tricks rather than actual knowledge. This is why Norman is so frustrated. Destiny simply doesn’t deserve a seat at the table. His connections behind the scenes must be impressive
@@kaytrout3836 I’d be curious to hear about one of his “rhetorical tricks”.
The way Norm recalls quotes from books and the exact page and line is like Rogan recalling fights on his show, it’s a crazy ability to have ina debate
lol what debate did you watch, he constantly forgot the book and where.
@@lurifaks92he litterally mentions a page and a book at the end of this clip what are you spewing?
Yeah dummy, has the books in front of him with pages marked that he planned on bringing up. Also, the author is right in front of him, talk to the man that wrote it not some out of context quote..... Pro-pal people have the smoothest brain. @@zaki17-
Too bad him recalling quotes was completely useless in this. He also nitpicks tiny quotes in books without stating his own understanding of the overall piece
@@unholydiver1095useless to you because you’ll never change your mind. Lol a debate to people like you does nothing to affect your views. Stay in denial.
No mention that the British carved out Israel for the Jewish people about 50 years before all of this. So much for Imperialism - Hello Karma
Firstly Israel has been in existence for almost 75 years and the Balfour declaration was over 100 years ago. Secondly, before that Jews already owned huge amounts of land in the area. Jews have been the majority in Jerusalem for 200 years.
@@NerdLifts Another lie. Palestine has always been majority muslim. Jews have been a minority for well over 2,000 years. Secondly they "owned," large part of the land that they brought from the British even though it was Palestinians who were the owners and they helped facilitate expelling Palestinians from those lands which culminated in the nakba. Your rewriting history again.
@@NerdLifts Bollocks , the Palestinians were in the majority even in Jerusalem, take your BS elsewhere
@@NerdLiftsif israel allways existed why the zionists need to make a israel state?
Land is taken by the victor and is kept by those that can defend it. That is the natural law of the land.
Lex outta his damn mind with that thumbnail ahahahah
Yeah, I don't see why you'd choose that for this clip. Like what is he trying to say here?
It was chosen by AI (Lex)
Is Destiny's face falling apart?
Lol why is Destiny in this conversation…
How many of you fucking finkel fans gonna keep repeating this
She is Lex' new girlfriend.
@@XekTOr89he looks so out of place lmao
controversial content = clicks = monetary reward.
Mossad agent
Wonderful. Can’t wait to watch the full conversation. Thanks.
Profesor N. Finkelstien, Professor Benny Morris, Mouin Rabbani (MA, BA).... and... "Destiny".... Sounds like a $5-a-peek pole dancer.
Lex why did you use that thumbnail bruv?
It was probably an intern. Ya know
💀
Rabbani and Norm are making a good point. Benny is a good historian, but we can't deny something changed in the latter half of his career when he started toeing the line with more establishment positions DESPITE his own presentation of evidence to the contrary. And we know Benny is disingenuous here, and he himself knows this. He is fully aware of what he is doing. I'm not making a moral claim either way. I am a relativist, but we know Benny has his own motivations know framing a conclusion separate from the evidence. His claims that it is a product of war and not of design - and that there is no designed intention on the Israeli side (his position) here is contradicted and real motivations revealed by his own previous interviews.
Interviewer: You went through an interesting process. You went to research Ben-Gurion and the Zionist establishment critically, but in the end you actually identify with them. You are as tough in your words as they were in their deeds. You may be right.
Benny Morris: Because I investigated the conflict in depth, I was forced to cope with the in-depth questions that those people coped with. I understood the problematic character of the situation they faced and maybe I adopted part of their universe of concepts. But I do not identify with Ben-Gurion. I think he made a serious historical mistake in 1948. Even though he understood the demographic issue and the need to establish a Jewish state without a large Arab minority, he got cold feet during the war. In the end, he faltered.
Interviewer: I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying that Ben-Gurion erred in expelling too few Arabs?
Benny Morris: If he was already engaged in expulsion, maybe he should have done a complete job. I know that this stuns the Arabs and the liberals and the politically correct types. But my feeling is that this place would be quieter and know less suffering if the matter had been resolved once and for all. If BenGurion had carried out a large expulsion and cleansed the whole country- the whole Land of Israel, as far as the Jordan River. It may yet turn out that this was his fatal mistake. If he had carried out a full expulsion-rather than a partial one-he would have stabilized the State of Israel for generations.
Interviewer: I find it hard to believe what I am hearing.
Benny Morris: If the end of the story turns out to be a gloomy one for the Jews, it will be because Ben-Gurion did not complete the transfer in 1948. Because he left a large and volatile demographic reserve in the West Bank and Gaza and within Israel itself.
Interviewer: In his place, would you have expelled them all? All the Arabs in the country?
Benny Morris: But I am not a statesman. I do not put myself in his place. But as an historian, I assert that a mistake was made here. Yes. The non-completion of the transfer was a mistake.
Please explain how the latter part of your comment quoting the interview somehow supports your previous assertions?
@@Firstname_Surname in the first half, he mentions that Benny Morris changed his views to align with the establishment and in the later half, he/she gives proof with the transcript from the interview showing that after Benny Morris met with Ben Gurion and other Zionist figures, he began to adopt their views and assertions.
@@Firstname_Surname How does it not? It shows Benny Morris' own agenda.
@@ney57e I guess we have completely different logic and reasoning processes.
As I understand it, he is making a pragmatic statement of what he thinks would potentially result in a better situation for both sides considering all of the wars and hardships that occurred because there is a sizable population of Palestinian Arabs that weren't absorbed by the surrounding Arab states, dissimilarly to Jews who fled from these Arab states to Israel, and are now probably happy to be where they are even though they suffered many losses a few generations ago.
Please don't try to assume the worst in someone, especially someone like Benny Morris, who in my opinion has shown to be extremely fair in his assessment of the situation.
@@Firstname_Surname Yeah so lets ethnically cleanse most of the people of Sicily or Napoli to Rome or Milano, then its the fault of northern Italians for not accepting that ethnic cleansing ? also what if Italy was fragmented and never officially formed like the Arabs that would be worse. Also, most of the jews that you speak about came from Morocco, Algeria, Yemen, etc countries that are really far apart culturally and geographically from Palestine, most of them did not come from say Lebanon, Jordon, or Syria where you can make even an argument that " they are really so close culturally they are the same as the Palestinians "
I feel like having a disagreement with Destiny over the ownership of the house he lives in.
This is what social media does to you, he should have stick to gaming.
Lex couldn’t find more educated guest in his place, shallow person with shallow arguments.
Exactlyyyyyyy
Your right ,it's strange they invited all these experienced hystorians with dozens of published books and a gamer but it was a vote by lex twitter followers that selected the debate participants
How would you suggest he go through the process of learning / becoming educated? It is very ridiculous thing to say that he should “stick to gaming” rather than trying wholeheartedly for months to educate himself on a subject he’s interested in, that is incredibly counterproductive and we should instead be promoting education
Leftists are going to have to learn to live with Islamic control of ONLY 99.7% of the land area of the Middle East and 52 Islamic supremacist Apartheid nations that oppress Christians, Women, Gays and Minorities.
@@LinusStudios I disagree. This shallow and “fast food” learning is the reason of his arguments devoid of any empathy.
It's easy to spot the ideologues, they often use straw man arguments - "so you agree antisemitism exists amongst Arabs!! Ah ha! Gotchya!"
Genuinely embarrassing, anything to justify an actual occupation
Palestinians hate Jews. Acting like that isn’t part of the equation is delusional.
I’d bet a good amount of money you’re a Jew hater as well.
Mind Begs the Question:
- If Criticism of Israel/Zionists
- Is Criticism of all Jews/Anti-Semitic
- Crimes of Israel/Zionists
- Crimes of all Jews?
@@HumanBeingsRThinkingBeings People who lack integrity or intellectual honesty often have double-standards including applying guilt by association in one direction, but not for themselves or their own group.
Mind Begs the Question:
- If policies of Starvation,Death Camps,Pogroms,Gassing/White Phosphorus,Ethnic Cleansing,etc are repeated
- Does not amount to Holocaust?
Morris keeps saying ..."it doesn't matter what I meant when I wrote it, I've changed the meaning".
Morris keeps saying ..."it matters to read the whole paragraph and not cut out cherry picked segments to change the meaning of my writing."
The only one who changed the meaning was finklestein. Just like finklestein, you “quoted” a thing he has never said
@@abcdefg-nu4xj not at all , like absolutely not at all , it you read the book , the only conclusion you'd have from what he wrote is that transfer and population expulsion are embedded in the Zionist ideology from its inception and then made a U tern and said the nakba was the result of the war. Like I read that a long time ago and said this guy is either trying to lie to himself or he's just a plain hypocrite, well he's definitely the latter
@@Magni87 absolutely wrong, if you read his book you'd kn exactly what Norm was saying, he laid out the arguments for something than made up a whole different conclusion to fit his ideology and it's quit depressing to see
@@Magni87 have you read the book?
This destiny is on the same IQ level as Ben Shapiro and Adam sosniak ..
He's actually smart but he's being deliberately misleading and he's willingly on a zionist leash
Ben Shapiro is actually very intelligent. The unfortunate thing is that, when it comes to Israel, he is a complete sociopath. He has zero empathy for anyone except the Israelis. He is intelligent, yet has no wisdom or compassion. Only rational intelligence - and even that goes out of the water in this debate, because he stands for Israel regardless of logic or facts.
Yup
Shapiro has an IQ that is a minimum of 2 standard deviations higher than Destinys. It can be seen very clearly in the debate they had. The same goes with Peterson.
Shapiro is very intelligent.. too bad he's a Zionist loser 😂
Norman you are a legend. Quoting him the page number in his own book
no he didn't norm was quoting selective part of quotes taken out of context from his own book he never read from benny books
There was no occupation until 1967.
The British created the Arab state of the Kingdom of Jordan, on 75% of the land.
In 1948, both parties were offered to split the difference of the remaining 25%. Neither had National sovereignty yet, put the Jews had purchased all the land they owned.
One agreed on the split
One refused.
War.
After the 1948-49 war, I didn't even know this, there was a 19 year occupation of Palestinians by Egypt and Jordan. No complaints about that occupation.
After Jordan and Egypt lost in the 1967 war, then by default, Israel had control of those areas.
Then it became THE Occupation as we know it.
Israel really did evacuate Gaza in 2005.
Most of the West Bank (Judea and Samaria) is controlled by the PA.
If at any time during the last 75 to 100 years the Arabs (now using the KGB scheme of calling themselves the _real_ Palestinians in place of the original Jewish Palestinians) agreed to a perm peace treaty, Israel would not have to maintain a security presence to prevent themselves from getting totally wiped out, as was described by Muhammad in the Gharqad Tree verse (Sura 2922) (which is also #7 in the Hamas founding statement).
I mean, the US has a border with Canada, but the US does not have an active military security presence to prevent Canadians firing rockets into New York State or Michigan or other border states. The US and Canada were once at war, but they live in peace side by side today.
Why not Arabs and Jews?
@@chrishernandez8504 You are lying. Norm _quoted_ the page number and passage in his own book and Benny's book was the _source_ of what Norm quoted.
The point is: if you go to page four of Benny's book you will find precisely what Norman _said_ is there. You are reaching very hard in order to justify genocide: maybe you need to re-calibrate your _own_ moral compass?
@@gg_rider "blah blah blah"
There is one reason and one reason only for putting Israel in the land of the Canaanites and that reason is _war!_
Deuteronomy 20:16-17
"16 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy[a] them-the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites-as the Lord your God has commanded you."
The _fact_ is: 'genocide' is a built-in feature of Zionist ideology. Now, you can own that fact and continue along your path but at least you are cognizant of the fact that you are yourself giving direct support for genocide and colonization. Or, you can deny it and reveal that you are a morally bankrupt and intellectually dishonest coward in which case we can all ignore you and simply move on.
If Middle-Eastern Lands can be invaded, depopulated and colonized then what morally consistent argument can you make in order to exempt Israel from dying by the sword she lives by?
@@undercoveragent9889 I see you failed the comprehension test ...
How? just how are you disproving my argument by agreeing with me?
🤯🤯🤯
This is a whole new level of insane to me I don't know how to engage with a question laying out my argument and then at the end saying "see your wrong"
Like WTF 🤣🤣😂🤣
Good debate, but the young guy?
I know - he seems inadequate
He’s a political streamer named Destiny. To be honest I don’t know much about him other than the fact that he’s left leaning and I think has had a falling out with some other more extreme left leaning streamers. Cause apparently there’s a lot of those.
@@jackfinnegan2217 he is a child predator
The zios need a mental gymnasts to try and confuse what is supposed to be a pretty straightforward argument.
These comments make me realize that this debate is 95% optics. It's hard to find comments about the actual arguments being made
What the hell do "Steven Bonnell (aka Destiny)" in this conversation? The podcast is unwatchable - in my book - because of him. 😥
He should have been replaced by someone who has intimate knowledge of the history between Palestine and Israel.
Could have been a lot worse - they might have had, god forbid, Shmuley in his place.
No, it’s unwatchable because you’re pro-Palestine.
Destiny made Finkelstein look completely unhinged and you don’t like it. 😂
can you point out any part of debate where he got his facts wrong and can you point out to me where Raycist finkle engaged with topic and didn't just start with insults?
@@chrishernandez8504 It's not the individual, isolated facts that Destiny gets wrong that is the problem, like when he thought Palestine was in Turkey or Erdogan was the Prime Minister of Israel. It's his lack of material analysis and contextualization. Desinty says, at 4:58 "there was no Arab acceptance of anything that would allow a Jewish state to exist." Why should there be? What nation would allow an ethno state to emerge in its own borders, with the ensuing violence that would necessarily bring? You'll avoid the reality of this statement as much as Destiny does, but there's an answer for you.
@@connorbrady5689 So Destiny was making factually correct arguments. You're just upset that it made your boy Finkelstein look bad.
Lol who chose the thumbnail? 😂
How did it even evade the AI censorship? 😂
@@user-je7yx7mr1sLex has zionist contacts. If you still dont know Zionists can kill babys without consequences, you think someone cares about a thumbnail?
Does anyone know which book/study Dr. Finkelstein refers to at 2:20?
Norm is the hero of our time. I'm a Hindu so I have no stake in this fight and the Levant is no more special to me than any random desert. But the Palestinian fight crosses religion and ethnicity and nationality. Not since WWII has good and evil been so clear cut.
Destiny makes me want to go to school and actually get a formal education.
Norman sounds like a substitute teacher.
You do
He sounds like the old History teacher everyone likes schooling the smartass nerd that everyone hates
@@NKola333 I lost my voice in an unfortunate hotdog accident
He sounds like a psycho. Husseini was not an anti-semite? What?
What a good grandpa helping destiny with his homework
I gave this a like exclusively for the contribution of Prof Finkelstein and Mouin Rabbani.
Why? Norm only insulted, silenced and virtue signaled the entire time while refusing to answer almost every question by starting on an entirely different subject.
lol "I give this a like for the people I agree with" you're useless
Actually, I thought I was watching Game of Thrones where the little guy was on speed. That shows what I know...
Why did you put @iceposeidon on the thumbnail?
The fact that the norm finklestien can bring up the specific part of his opponents book out of the top of his head is just well impressive. Considering his age as well.
Also was crucial in the comeback to respond to Benny's arguments etc.
Why did Lex call a gammer on this debate? Mr. Mars didn't need him
Because Uncle Norm uses abuse tactics and wig snatching techniques, so we need a black woman gamer to keep him in check
@@NH-bn8xn a black woman ?
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
This is second time someone referenced that, is that a inside joke or meme i dont know about 😂
We need him because the topic is too depressing hes there so we can have something we can laugh at and I honestly appreciate him 😂😂
@@aj-zt8br it's a Jesse Lee Peterson joke from when destiny first met him.
The way everybody is utterly stuck in their own view leaves zero hope for a peaceful resolution. Having watched the entire discussion twice, trying to increase my understanding of the conflict, I was left with a very bitter aftertaste of hopelessness and I can't say I understand it better now. If this was a school class, the teacher would have to separate the two fighting pupils and just have them sit as far apart from each other as possible. For an outsider to the subject, it looks like complete incompatibility. How is it even possible for two perspectives to be THAT far apart? All people really belong to the human family, no matter what they did or didn't do to each other, no?
Amen, brother. It is really sad to see. Recently I've been reading a lot of Arab and Jewish philosophy from the Middle Ages, and it makes me quite sad to see that relations between the two groups have degenerated to the point where there is no thought about what we have in common --- among mankind in general, and the sons of Abraham in particular. Like you said, watching this play out can be demoralizing; but it is the duty of each of us to retain a loving attitude to our fellows and put faith in the maxim that 'Beauty will save the world.'
Don't forget that being stuck for us, Israelis mean prosperity, and their being stuck means Gaza 2024
@@hifriend494 I suspect that we can never really emotionally overcome the imprint our respective upbringing has on us. And unfortunately some people are brought up to hate a specific group. Some people may turn religious after having been atheist before during a psychological crisis, but that's the only exception I can think of. No fact or experience can take away from the emotional revulsion Palestinians and Israelis seem to feel for each other, it's just the way they were brought up. A resolution would require generations of children being brought up without being taight to hate each other. I'm just very glad not having bene born in that kind of situation.
Just try to name one solution that is not permanent apartheid or a Bantustan, then propose it to the Palestinians, 1967 borders? sure why not, one state? fine, fair Land swipes and banning Palestinians to have an army and no right of return? better than nothing, then propose any of these solutions or any real solution to Israel, and listen to the Israeli's rejecting it. And if you say Hamas will reject a fair solution and only want insane demands, then lets make the Palestinians vote on it. Yeah it really simple guys lets stop pretending.
If this was a school class, you'd be taught how to spell "separate"
Dr Norman is very knowledgeable and smart
Dr Norman ❤ for you truthfulness and fairness against these lies and propoganda
After listening to the complete bun fight, prof Ilan Pape has restored my sanity. Peace
Then i'm sorry to tell you. You are indeed insane.
Because the anti zionists lost so hard that you had to have your bias confirmed in your familiar echo chambers where no one can counter argue?
Love the thumbnail 😂😂
destiny should never be allowed to grow a 'beard' nor ever be called 'honest'.
at least he doesnt call CPS and attempt to take their kids away from them
Pro-Palestinians talking about honesty is super ironic
At least we have hearts and don't support genocide and an internationally recognized apartheid state, I'm sure south africa supporters said similar things and they were backed by Israel too. I wonder why Israel loved Apartheid south africa so much, hmm? Guess we'll never know@@fritznovak4482
@@fritznovak4482 Ha Ha - another quite embarrassing example of how Israelis project.
@@george00110 I ain’t Israeli bro, I’m not even Jewish. Just find it a bit weird that almost all pro-Palestinians love denying wrongdoing on there own side, and pro-Israelis don’t seem to have a problem with it (like in this entire interview) a bit interesting you assumed I was Jewish though…that’s a bit red hot
Damn bro the thumbnail 😂
Indian here, I am surprised.
“I don’t know anybody who doesn’t harbor some antisemitism. It’s a fundamental part of human nature,” said Norman Finkelstein. Who is he hanging out with?! I guess that just about says everything we need to know about him.
"Who is he hanging out with?! I" I assume educated people and academics.
I'm confused. Is the whole point that no one wants to admit that they only want to be around their own kind or something?
Its very simple. No one is saying that. What are you on about. We dont support ethno states
Who's "we"?@@Magnum_Opus564
@@Magnum_Opus564 I mean the destiny side was kind of saying that about the palestinians...that they just can't accept living among jews (even though they somehow did before they settled there en masse).
@@lololounge8281 😂😂😂 right i keep forgetting that point
@@Magnum_Opus564what is Israel then? Just because there are Arabs there doesn’t mean it’s not an ethno state
Reminds me of Funkhauser
Damn that is so spot on!
“If Rabin can break bread with Arafat, then I can have chicken at this antisemitic shithole”
In 1940, Yosef Weitz wrote in his diary: “The only solution is a Land of Israel devoid of Arabs. There is no room here for compromise. They all must be moved. Yosef Weitz did not only advocate "transferring" the Palestinian people so the "Jewish state" would become a "Jewish majority", he also envisioned the "transfer" as a useful tool that could dispossess them from their lands.
We need to get a debate with Dan Schueftan and Norman Finkelstein
Every clip. Why Destiny? Out of all people. Decades of scholarship on the panel and then Destiny? Is Lex having a go with Benny Morris??
Benny Morris wanted to do the debate on hard mode
did we really have to use that as a thumbnail
So, antisemitism is a normal part of the human condition? Talk about evading responsibility!
Finkelstein is such a terrible representation for the Palestinian side. Can't stand him. And every time they went into the details it seemed he knew less than that youtube guy
Well, a lot of his points were shrugged off to "it doesn't matter". What did he say that was totally wrong. His context was all on point. Except you have your agenda and didn't watch the debate objectively.
I don't like the name calling and insulting part. But Destiny was really ignorant about the matter and was using sentiment instead of facts on ground.
@@sammyboy8553 wtf are you talking about
@@meecha59 i agree
@@aliyuolalekan8276 give me am example, I would love to hear it
This is awesome. Really amazing.
that is an insane photo to use 😂
What made Lex decide to bring destiny on here? He's clearly just a youtube personality talking out of his ass about a topic he only just recently started researching. If he included him just for the entertainment factor then I honestly think that's pretty disrespectful, both to his other guests as well as to the victims of this conflict.
Exactlyyy thank you! So frustrating
Lex is a very silly little man.
@@Fay_YaYa why are you saying this like it's a revelation or something lol everyone in the comments is complaining about him
@@ryzikx because I just came from reading the comments on destiny's video and am really happy to read comments that are similar to what I believe in.
@@ryzikx also, why are you taking time to respond to my comment that literally has nothing to do with you. Do you want me to respond to your comment too. Do you want a cookie?
Fecalstain was entirely useless throughout this debate.
Finkelstein and Chomsky are good friends? Makes sense now
Idk how its so hard to wrap your head around. People dont just hate someone for no reason, address that hate cowards
You obviously have never been to the middle east.
@loum5254 the Middle East where Jews lived amongst Muslims and Chrisitans and consistently took refuge with them from the Chrisitan West? That Middle East? The heavy friction between Arabs and Jews can be traced back to the events that lead up to 1948, 1948 and it's consequence and Zion.i.st foul play (like the Zion.ist bombing plots in various Arab countries such as Egypt around the Suez Crisis)
The woman Norman Finkelstein was thinkin about at 2:19 is Irene L. Gendzier.
In 1947 , 93% of people in Palestine were natives Palestinans ( Muslims , Christians ) and 7% were Jews and they proposed that country is being splited , who would accept that
There's nothing 'grey' about someone forcing you to give up most of your home for someone else. And nothing difficult to understand when you feel some kind of way about it.
💯based thumbnail
LOUD NOISES!!
The Palestinians had no obligation to give up their land to create a Jewish state. A piece of Germany should've and still can be carved up to create a Jewish homeland.
All people should be against child genital mutilation, including Jews and Muslims. If they aren't, they should ask themselves why. That would be a good question.
Someone trying to push their views on others acting as if he has a moral high ground. Where have we seen this before?
Benny saying semites are anti semites. Thats rich.
Etymological fallacy 🥱 BORING
Missing the forest for the trees there haha
In America semites just means Jews. Even tough historically that’s not the case
@@mungus633 You spend way too much time on reddit.
Another one that doesn't know the difference between Etymology and semantics
"i don't remember saying CHIEF motive..."
"page 137"
damn.
I love this still of Norman speaking faster .
Thumbnail is crazy
Destiny had nothing to do at this grown up table. It's just embarrassing that he got let on this debate.
How would you accomplish having a Jewish majority in the region if there is no expulsion of the opposing demographic? Even if you make the argument, "more jews just moved in..." You still get left with limited space and the eventual removal of the opposing demographic. Which is what happened.
I am really tired of the, "beating around the bush," and smoke and mirrors. Just OWN IT.
The bots and fake accounts on here is wild. You can tell by there comments and views. Almost like they didnt watch the whole debate.
Oh my gosh, Norm is so clearly stating the obvious but Morris can’t even concede to his own writings! Wow! P. S. Love you, Norm!
That Norman is just a rude old man that keeps insulting and not engaging the argument. Just be calm and start your point and counter your opponent. It’s pretty simple, you got 5 hrs to challenge it.
In a debate you are supposed to start each point with some kind of inflammatory, ethos/pathos moment. It keeps "your side" jacked up while you don't really have a good rebuttal.
The UN now 14th May has cut the number of civilian deaths by half....'civilian deaths' still includes all under 18 year old who have died...Israel credibly asserts that many older teens are fighters.
nice thumbnail picture 😂
It’s kinda dumb arguing with a man because a book he wrote several years ago didn’t say the things he is saying now. He is there now, let him articulate his point. Also attacking Destiny because he isn’t an academic is just rude and pointless for the debate.
That's shows he is compromised, or doing double speak.
Rude? Destiny literally mocks the dead, an illiterate is more respectful than the person destiny is
And it's not dumb to notice contradictions in someone's viewpoints regarding such a topic
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Thank you Norman Finkelstein for always standing up for justice and speaking the truth. You know who the liars are and the criminals and the genocide supporters? Are the ones who keep arguing and interrupting, this is a tactic that they use. So far as of today over 40,000 Palestinians in Gaza were murdered by the terrorist state of Israel and its Satanic army. This is an occupation that’s been ongoing for 75 years, and occupation of ethnic cleansing and endless massacres. You can interrupt you can twist the truth, you can pay people to spread your lies and propaganda. We are sick and tired of it you can speak at 100 miles an hour and keep interrupting nobody believes you. Israel is a terror state it is an illegal occupation that has broken every international law and United Nations resolution. Resolution 194 of the United Nations grants refugees the right to return to their homes. Israel does not permit over 1 million refugees/Palestinians the right of return. Because if they do, Israel will cease to exist. This is ethnic cleansing 101. Do you want to talk about massacres do you want to talk about rape and violations of every human right on a global level? Research: Israel was born out of terrorism = Irgun, JDL, Lehi, Leumi, stern group, haganah, etc. I invite you to google and research each one of these Israeli terrorist groups. What a doofus! Yeah I’ll keep arguing and interrupting and talking really fast because I have nothing based on facts to say. L O L. Thank you again from the bottom of my heart Norman Finkelstein. I have a law degree and I’ve been a historian professor for the last 15 years. I have never ever witnessed such ignorance and hate to try to justify genocide, ethnic cleansing, illegal occupation, and endless massacres for the last 75 years. Absurd!
It's very 'complicated' to win a debate when the facts are against you.
I blame Lex for bringing this guy on here.
Which guy?
@@fuckbankers destiny
based @@TheNoSuchThingPodcast
bingo.
actually, on second thought, it may not be Lex's fault. I have long been looking for debates between Finkelstein and someone competent to defend the zionists. They probably don't exist because Finkelstein won't accept to debate anyone competent. Benny Morris is competent, but he's too nice. I mean someone who would bitchslap the Fink in a debate. Someone who will talk to him, like he talks to others.
@@surfingbilly9654 ✊
Don’t argue with someone who knows your work better than you!
They really don’t like talking about Mohammed Amin al-Husseini. He was an ally to Hitler and taught the final solution in schools and universities. He adopted it as doctrine. They really get upset when you bring that up though.
Now I’m not saying that the thumbnail is absolutely hysterical but..
Why is destiny making accusations that are rebuttable but then looks to his left for his master to follow up on his accusations. Why is destiny there, is it because you have to be a jew to be included in the conversation?????
Why does anyone give "Destiny" any credibility whatsoever?
Mr. Borelli has been very silent since this aired 😂