Something I brought up to my mother when leaving the church… she told me that things were different back then. But I told her that I was taught that God is ‘the same yesterday, today, and forever.’ If you agree that God said it was okay to marry kids back then, then you also believe that the only thing wrong with marrying a child today is that the law says you can’t
Well. Listening at work when I got to the "impregnation" bombshell. My jaw legitimately dropped and I stood slackjawed in front of a directors office I was walking past. He opened the door right at that moment and saw me, and asked if I was alright because I, TO HIM, looked physically ill. He's Mormon, and I had to instantly scramble for some nothing-burger excuse about not sleeping well or something rather than tell him what shocked me so much. But sure. Exmos are just JUMPING at every opportunity to cram horrible facts about Mormonism (or the REPULSIVE statements of their apologists) down their throats. JFC if someone told me the ONION wrote that article parodying a Mormon apologist, I would have said it was too absurd to feel believable. Wow. I honestly feel sick hearing that. Wow.
Oh wow. My activated nervous system and constant state of confusion, frustration, anger, and overwhelm... I'm always taken aback by how difficult it is to tolerate these talks.
You guys are in rare form on this one. Thanks for reading and commenting on this junk so we don't have to. Thanks for suffering for our cause. You are great. Much thanks!💫
Hello Tanner and Samantha! I am an XJW, who is binging on all ex cult member content right now. I just wanted to tell Tanner that I remember the Jamie Kennedy experience, and I thought that was a funny joke, lol! It’s important to be supportive!
45:40 & 45:87 As a victim of abuse and sexual assault, I find this incredibly insensitive and infuriating. Whatever Mormon apologist who wrote the comment should check their privilege, get a good dose of reality, and retract their disgusting commentary. Speaking from experience (not with mormonism but with evangelical christianity), I completely understand the mental and emotional toil, hopelessness, and purposelessness that comes from having an identity built on a religion crumble. I get it. but that doesn't even come close to the the humiliation, the violation, the raw and deep pain and suffering that comes from sexual assault and the further trauma that comes with realizing that unless you are impossibly lucky, you will never get justice for what was done to you. Equating the two is s despicably insensitive I cant really put into words how it makes me feel.
You were both ON FIRE in this one! The apologetics aren't really that new (apart from the psych r**e ofc) but your responses held me engaged and laughing the whole way through. You guys are terrific.
Thank you so much for videos like this. I'm still upset, in a lot of ways, by the years wasted on a mission and in the lds church but being able to laugh at it all helps the healing process.
When the facts aren’t on their side, they have to resort to logical fallacies like ad hominem insults. When someone insults your character instead of addressing your arguments, that’s a big red flag. Throughout much of what you were reading from apologists, I kept wanting to add, “Evidence Based Citation Needed,” repeatedly.
Believing a book with talking snakes and donkeys 😂 never really heard the absurdity in that until now. I know some people see it as metaphor, but still others believe it's literal Also about them not being able to accept evidence that there are no skin curses... I watched Carah's (nuancehoe) video of her reaction to the Rod Meldrum interview and he was basically saying stuff published ON THE ACTUAL CHURCH WEBSITE is wrong - some of the essays I think. So if they can be wrong then why not be wrong about the racist stuff too? I guess questioning a website vs the Book of Mormon is different. But they've altered the Book of Mormon before too so 🤷♀️ Maybe they have a grudge against John Oliver because of that episode he did about televangelists extorting people for money. He included a few clips of mormon leaders telling people to give them money instead of paying tuition or debt or, you know, feeding their children 😢
23:23 Karl Popper's famous essay Science as Falsification gives 6 points for separating good science from pseudoscience. Here's a quote: "I found that those of my friends who were admirers of Marx, Freud, and Adler, were impressed by a number of points common to these theories, and especially by their apparent explanatory power. These theories appear to be able to explain practically everything that happened within the fields to which they referred. The study of any of them seemed to have the effect of an intellectual conversion or revelation, open your eyes to a new truth hidden from those not yet initiated. Once your eyes were thus opened you saw confirmed instances everywhere: the world was full of verifications of the theory. Whatever happened always confirmed it. Thus its truth appeared manifest; and unbelievers were clearly people who did not want to see the manifest truth; who refuse to see it, either because it was against their class interest, or because of their repressions which were still "un-analyzed" and crying aloud for treatment."
If I became the "profit" of the SLC based sect of Mormonism I would dissolve and liquidate everything and refund all of the money to the marks, I mean members.
"No one is holding a gun to you, forcing you to watch Mormon Stories." I laughed way too hard at the mental image of you two standing behind someone going, "Now sit here and watch John Dehlin do a 15 hour interview! Do it!" (All love to Mormon Stories as a NeverMo, the interviews are always fascinating.)
My brain hurts from the intellectual dishonesty. "No-one ACTUALLY reads charts". Just... WOW. I'm seeing the whole "Spiritual R" thing every now and then, and it's absolutely disgusting on its own, but combined with the polygamy apologetics, it's beyond infuriating.
As an exmormon, I do not give a f%ck about what is legal when it comes to Mormonism, because of what Mormonism claims to be (i.e. the only organization on earth that is authorized to represent a deity). I care about what is moral. This apologist's defenses of Mormonism are appallingly immoral.
@@ZelphOntheShelf Wow it gets even dumber right after you where you left off: "'People will believe a lie because they want to believe it’s true, or because they are afraid it might be true.' On one hand, this has to do with how I approach a text. If I fear that the text is right, I will be more gullible. If I hope for it, ditto. So, if someone can get another to fear that something could be true, half of the battle of convincing him is already won. Thus fear leads to the dark side. In those cases I have to be doubly critical." The lack of self-awareness these people have is infuriating.
Physicists here Einstein quote: "God does not play dice" was his poetic was of saying he believes the inherent indeterminism of Quantum Physics (new at the time) cannot be fundamental. We now have a lot more reasons to believe Einstein was wrong about that. Also, most modern technology is using quantum physics to work. This has NOTHING to do with the randomness in the theory of evolution. That's due to complexity. It can occur even in classical physics, which is fully deterministic.
It’s so fascinating, every time I hear Mormons, Christians, Jews, Muslims, JWs, etc all use the EXACT SAME ARGUMENTS for why THEIR god is the real one and all the others are wrong.
The term "God does not play dice" was said by Einstein as a way to express how he felt about quantum mechanics. He very explicitly has said that whenever he invites invokes God, he is talking about the nature of the universe. He was never referring to a literal deity.
Einstein’s God was the cosmos, which is called Pantheism. Science cannot prove or disprove the existence of a transcendent Deity. That is not the purpose of science. 😊😊😊
If you want to be a Mormon..Be one! If you don’t want to be a Mormon..Don’t! God Controls it Anyway! God put me in the Mormon church for Good Reason and 50 years later He took me Out for Good Reason. 😊❤
1:21:30 The age of consent thing doesn’t mean pedophilia was accepted. There are other factors like having a minimum base age that other jurisdictions can modify (ex. Japan), Romeo / Juliet Laws, etc. Basically, you don’t want to create a situation where some 16 year old kid goes to jail for kissing a 14 year old at the fair. The other issue is that many American states lack _necrophilia_ laws, or did, until very recently. This doesn’t mean necrophilia was accepted or common. It was actually _the opposite._ Necrophilia was so utterly unheard of that there wasn’t even the idea of prohibiting it. People don’t ban things that aren’t happening. People ban things that happen. Most of the modern US laws against necrophilia developed as a result of _someone being caught boning* a corpse._ Oftentimes the victims (the family of the deceased) are horrified to discover, in, like, 1992, that they had no legal recourse for someone skullf-cking their mom. To return to Christianity, consider St. Paul’s letters. The dude specifically bans women preachers. Why? Because _early Christianity had women preachers._ All of this is to say that much Mormon apologia is based on a historical misunderstanding I call the _”Game of Thrones_ Effect”. So many modern people seem to think that the average medieval couple consisted of a 12 year old girl and a 45 year old man. (Which is addressed 1:21:56). They don’t appreciate how extremely young marriages were mainly an issue of _politics_ and not consummated. Many of these marriages involved _young boys,_ which is something these creeps tend to overlook in their pursuit of young girls. You can see this in media like _The Trees They Do Grow High._ Although there was a massive variety across Medieval Europe, it wasn’t abnormal to see 1 out of every 10 women single and owning a business. The average couple was more likely to be a 24 year old woman and her 26 year old husband, rather than some pedophilic fantasy. That is, their excuses that “this is how it was done back then” is objectively wrong. People knew, even back then, that grown men like Joseph Smith marrying girls was _wrong._ That’s why art pieces like Pukirev’s _The Unequal Marriage_ were made two decades after Smith’s death. In Russia. A country that has an _older_ Christian faith than the Mormons. But even if these clowns were right and the past was just one never ending serial SA-film-fest starring Everyone All The Time, it wouldn’t make it _right._ This is an appeal to popularity, or, rather, the popular opinion of the past. It’s an appeal to a tradition that they concede is _bad_ (because didn’t those same states persecute Smith?). Why do the laws of Massachusetts matter sometimes, but not all the time? (1:21:49 “He did break anti-bigamy laws!”) Why do these rules matter in of themselves? These questions are deflected. Nice channel. I took serious issue with what I perceived as very naïve opinions in another video, but I still think you’re both clever and well-read. You guys are a much less serious and emotionally-draining duo to learn about Mormonism from. Other channels are fine, but they can be utterly brutal at times. This is very much like the “Wendigoon” of ExMo community. In my ex-Catholic opinion. *Bone. Ha.
"Most people believe in a soul, so it must be true!" That is such a fallacy and falls apart if you think about it for more than 2 seconds. Like, at one point in time, most people thought blood-letting was a good way to treat illnesses. A belief held by the majority does not necessarily make it true. That being said, I'm not even sure where I stand on the concept of a soul or a spirit, but I don't want to rule it out entirely. We don't really have a way to prove or disprove it.
So hear me out... Microplastics in your blood? Leeches suck out the blood, body makes new blood, now less microplastic in your blood. How sure are we that bloodletting is a bad idea?
I just found your channel today and I really like it! I was never quite so bad as to be a fundie, but I grew up in the church (French Catholic) and in religious schools. I can't look at stained glass windows anymore without feeling... bleak... Such a wild life, growing up in an environment like this. Thanks for making things, yall!
Jonathan streeter's fake newsroom apology was a huge shelf item for me! Just hearing about it in the first place because I knew the church would never apologize. And secondly because I thought it was going to be really snarky and sarcastic but was actually done quite well. Made it even worse for my cognitive dissonance
that thing you said about evolution + the edible i took an hour ago have me weeping crying screaming shitting you are so right. youre right i shouldnt drop out of college before i finish my archaeology degree
Pseudepigrapha is pronounced "soodoePIGrafa" for future videos. I love Bart Herman's work Kinderhook Plates was a setup with Mormons purposefully at the dig where the hoaxter had them "discovered". JS could have been chomping at the bit, or he could have realized off the hop it was a hoax cuz his were too, but felt painted into a corner by making people believe in ancient plates being dug up in their backyards
30:12 it's a reference to the Uncertainty Principle - which Einstein initially rejected (saying 'God does not play dice') but which then turned out to be correct.
I left the church at 18. I'm 26 now, as I learn these deep wrongings of the church fir the 1st time. I've been realizing, as a child I had enough logic to assume these biblical stories were just stories- like I genuinely didn't think the adults thought it was a real history. This makes me sad that my dad wholeheartedly follows this church, even though he is more Christian than Mormon. It's still so sad. I mentioned Joseph Smith raping a 16 yr old girl and my mom was shocked, she didn't doubt me but said she was never taught that. I hope she doubts the church but more so I want my dad to leave.
@@ZelphOntheShelf No I haven't seen it. I've never been religious, I'm not sure if I've ever met a mormon. Are there mormons in New Zealand? Probably somewhere. Anyway I just watch because you are awesome people and your content is really entertaining.
Every person who's played The Sims with cheats knows that the boundless afterlife existence mormons believe in would get so boring. That's why you get real into it for like one week when you get a little too high and then abandon it for 6 months
I love how Tanner says that Noah’s Arc is the most bat shit impossible story ever told because that’s something my mom and I talk about all of the time. Her biggest argument/question always being, “how would it have been possible for them to have survived being on a boat with two of every animal on the planet? AND how could they have possibly fit two of every animal on the planet on one boat? The smell alone would have killed them. And what about predatory animals? How did they keep the predators from killing everyone?”
The over concern for LDS people is the thing that bothers me most about Mormon Stories. John isn't wrong to be like that, but Mormons Stories bends over backwards almost continually to make LDS people feel comfortable.
Yeah I kinda know what you’re saying. Probably because he has learned over years and years that Mormons are sensitive little babies and will whine or click away at the slightest provocation and he is trying to get through to them, which I understand and respect, but they probably aren’t watching his show anyways and if they are they should just hear it like it is and not some nice guy watered down opinions. But like I said they are almost all (from my experience ) far too ignorant to even click on a Mormon stories podcast if it has any ‘non faith promoting’ title or if they knew he was excommunicated etc
Okay, I have to say this: Italians tend to say "allora" after sentences. It's a high feedback culture. German is not. It's similar to "right?, you got it, okay, ect" The author just doesn't get Italians. 😂
I was familiar with Emily Partridge's testimony ("carnal intercourse") but I wasn't aware of Meg Stout's apologetic explanation: ...“carnal intercourse” would also be a legitimate description of passing Joseph a platter of turkey or chicken or mutton or beef at a meal.
I can tell this apologist has never published a research paper in an academic journal. The peer review process is brutal, especially for high-impact journals. The reviewers tear apart your manuscript, closely scrutinizing the research methods, especially data collection, the statistical analysis, and conclusions drawn from the results. Any imperfections in the research design or methods that might impact the results, or if your conclusions don't aren't closely aligned with the results, will result in a paper not being published. Maybe the apologist is used to publishing in mormon journals where the only criteria for publication is that what you're saying aligns with the current doctrine?
50:18 oh dear, I hope he didn’t give himself a concussion during this episode! Although I understand the desire to head-butt/facepalm myself into oblivion with that crap.
30:00 ok, someone needs to explain "God does not play dice." It's a counter to the Copenhagen interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, which was new at the time and describes the universe as truly random (not just too chaotic to determine in practice - actually random, not even predictable in principle). It's the most commonly accepted interpretation of Quantum mechanics, but it's not the only one and it's not known for sure to be true.
21:26 Jonathan Streeter was very helpful in my early deconstruction when working through undue influence, but I got really disappointed when he made and doubled down on the unhinged take of equating social justice to fascism. Def a privilege to not have to take understanding of that sociology and apply it to all power dynamics in a larger scope.
I also agree that his satire probably did have a useful effect on members, but there were also a lot of Black members and postmormons who were heartbroken that it wasn't real, so it seemed kinda fucked up to punch down like that (even if he didn't realize that would happen), esp on an issue of racism. Like (not to equate the struggles) I appreciate calling out a homophobe, but how about you don't do that by qrting the guy's tweet in front of your queer friends and calling him closeted as a dunk??
I have the same reaction to mormon apologists when I encounter them online as I do to flat-earthers: BLET 🤢 Thank you for slumming it long enough to deal with that junk!
It is obvious that neither of you can distinguish between Christian Orthodoxy and Progressive Modernism in biblical studies. Modernism in religion came about primarily after the publication of “Origin of Species” by Charles Darwin in 1859; prior to that Modernism in religious studies gained acceptance in Europe after philosophical rationalism had taken root in the universities. In order to defend Modernism, one must prove the failed theory of Darwinism scientifically- molecules to mankind. The issue of miracles or naturalism in the Bible hinges upon one’s worldview and/or philosophical commitments, not the actual evidence. For more information on the background of the New Testament canon, I recommend “New Testament Introduction” by Donald Guthrie, London Bible College. 😊😊😊
If anyone ever tells you to ignore evidence in favour of your philisophical commitments or personal worldview, they have no intellectual integrity. They are misleading you. They are a bad actor.
Spoke fluent Hebrew and read all 13 volumes, clearly. And the commentaries. Because talmudic study includes reading commentary, or at least the entire talmud, which isn't available in translation. Only partial translations are available for the Talmud.
@@songs-of-seers5139 Yeah. I'd buy the Torah or Tanakh, but I don't know many Jews who would claim we've "read the Talmud" like any other book during a comparative religion study.
So I'm a little confused abt the dude saying books is anachronistic... like... biblion is a word in 5th century bce attic (the athenian ancient greek dialect that gave the koine, whixh is biblical greek...) like books werent binded like todays books are ofc, they were long scrolls of papyrus, but it was still a book??? Like the concept remained the same???? Maybe I'm just confused bc english isnt my fiest language but ?????
The more I listen, the more I'm confused; we know fiction (like novels and shits) existed like super early in human history, and I'm not talking abt myths being written down, I'm talking abt us knowing some type of erotic books were super popular with spartan women in the classical period around 450 bce???? Like fiction is not a new thing????
The writer of this article doesn't believe that Joseph Smith was a treasure digger? Because they clearly imply that it's a BAD thing when they try to compare it to evil ex Mormons. Unless this is one of those times where they ironically undercut their own beliefs like when they say "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist."
Yeah, the faith-thing really bugs them. They'll often say "We all have faith in something". Okay fine, but can we not put so much faith in our imaginary friends?
I enjoy the thumbnail photo of Tanner on this video. He looks like he is trying to divine the contents of a sealed box. He needs a turban, lots of jewels...
The guy talking about fake science and the John Oliver thing… do people like that just not realize they sound sooooo dumb? They think they sound so intellectual, when in fact, the mental gymnastics are making me dizzy
Is he kinda sort of saying that spreadsheets are demonic? Ok this idea is a lil half baked but hear me out: merch that somehow depicts excel formulas and charts as witchcraft. I would purchase a mug, a shirt, a hoodie? I want it to exist.
I couldn't watch this in one sitting. The level of pseudo intellectualism in the article was just completely asinine. Little details like using the term 'intelligencia' which is a term used to describe certain people within a certain period of history were just so disingenuous
are you sure my ex didn’t right this ? the projection and gas lighting in this essay reminds me of him. the church is so similar to a mental illness with delusions being one of the symptoms. there is a treatment, but it’s a bit uncomfortable at first…… and there will be withdrawal symptoms.
What about the abusive questions asked to young children about their sexual purity and worthiness. Omg. I could keep going but you don’t have enough room 🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️ Asking 8 year olds to profess their testimony of Joseph smith and the religion is forcing children to lie and believe it to get baptized for their parents to fit in the cult
New Zelph on the Shelf videos are like coffee…both forbidden by the church but such a pick-me-up in the morning ☕️ ⛪️ ❤
Awww yay!!!!
YES I LOVE THEM TOGETHER
Coffee! ua-cam.com/users/shortswjSz1_j2OEo?feature=share
True! Except I don’t like coffee. My sinful beverage of choice is tea
Who needs anti-Mormon literature when this is what pro-Mormon literature is coming out with 😂
The true history of the church is plenty anti Mormon to anyone with morals or common sense
Yes they address issues without judging current members. These two are awesome!
Thank you for your emotional labor in confronting this mental gymnastics article.
I can't believe this guy thinks asking questions is abusive, but marrying 10 year-olds is okay. Absolutely horrifying.
Ikr... 🙄
The author then points out that the age of consent was 7 in Delaware! Just because it was legal doesn't mean it's acceptable!
@@MM-jf1me I agree! If one's argument relies heavily on the letter of the law, then it is probably pretty obvious that one's argument is immoral.
Something I brought up to my mother when leaving the church… she told me that things were different back then. But I told her that
I was taught that God is ‘the same yesterday, today, and forever.’ If you agree that God said it was okay to marry kids back then, then you also believe that the only thing wrong with marrying a child today is that the law says you can’t
"i only trust doctors without degrees" absolutely took me out
Well. Listening at work when I got to the "impregnation" bombshell. My jaw legitimately dropped and I stood slackjawed in front of a directors office I was walking past.
He opened the door right at that moment and saw me, and asked if I was alright because I, TO HIM, looked physically ill.
He's Mormon, and I had to instantly scramble for some nothing-burger excuse about not sleeping well or something rather than tell him what shocked me so much.
But sure. Exmos are just JUMPING at every opportunity to cram horrible facts about Mormonism (or the REPULSIVE statements of their apologists) down their throats.
JFC if someone told me the ONION wrote that article parodying a Mormon apologist, I would have said it was too absurd to feel believable.
Wow.
I honestly feel sick hearing that.
Wow.
Oh wow. My activated nervous system and constant state of confusion, frustration, anger, and overwhelm... I'm always taken aback by how difficult it is to tolerate these talks.
Anti hammer hitting fund 💚 Thanks for your sacrifice!
Ahhh thank you!!! 💚💚💚💚
You guys are in rare form on this one. Thanks for reading and commenting on this junk so we don't have to. Thanks for suffering for our cause. You are great. Much thanks!💫
how is it that you both are always fashion icons? I love your shirt in this Sam!
Omg thank you!
Hello Tanner and Samantha! I am an XJW, who is binging on all ex cult member content right now. I just wanted to tell Tanner that I remember the Jamie Kennedy experience, and I thought that was a funny joke, lol! It’s important to be supportive!
45:40 & 45:87 As a victim of abuse and sexual assault, I find this incredibly insensitive and infuriating. Whatever Mormon apologist who wrote the comment should check their privilege, get a good dose of reality, and retract their disgusting commentary. Speaking from experience (not with mormonism but with evangelical christianity), I completely understand the mental and emotional toil, hopelessness, and purposelessness that comes from having an identity built on a religion crumble. I get it. but that doesn't even come close to the the humiliation, the violation, the raw and deep pain and suffering that comes from sexual assault and the further trauma that comes with realizing that unless you are impossibly lucky, you will never get justice for what was done to you. Equating the two is s despicably insensitive I cant really put into words how it makes me feel.
Can a thought terminating cliché be a person?
I would think that "God does not play dice" refers to the introduction of probabilities and uncertainties in quantum mechanics principles.
Yeah that's right. It was in the context of quantum mechanics that he made that statement
You were both ON FIRE in this one! The apologetics aren't really that new (apart from the psych r**e ofc) but your responses held me engaged and laughing the whole way through. You guys are terrific.
YAY!!!!
Mind blown, - with laughter. You hit the nail on the head. Love you guys! Thanks. Major therapy for me!
Landlords: love the person, hate the sin
Thank you so much for videos like this. I'm still upset, in a lot of ways, by the years wasted on a mission and in the lds church but being able to laugh at it all helps the healing process.
I hear ya. I’ve come to believe that nothing is wasted. When we get far enough away, we can see what we learned or experiences we needed to have.
Thanks so much to both of you for injuring your mental wellness for us 🙏😆 This was a wild ride.
The geography is the spot that broke my shelf. I'm glad it was there when I saw it.
When the facts aren’t on their side, they have to resort to logical fallacies like ad hominem insults. When someone insults your character instead of addressing your arguments, that’s a big red flag.
Throughout much of what you were reading from apologists, I kept wanting to add, “Evidence Based Citation Needed,” repeatedly.
Went to church last week and a speaker literally said that Satan used logic to lead people away and god doesn't need to use logic because he's god.
@@agentraptor1272 Wow! That’s some crazy level of using logical fallacies and bs.
Oooo love this vibe! I’m 49 sec in to my first zelph on the shelf video and already obsessed 😂
Awww yay!!
Believing a book with talking snakes and donkeys 😂 never really heard the absurdity in that until now. I know some people see it as metaphor, but still others believe it's literal
Also about them not being able to accept evidence that there are no skin curses... I watched Carah's (nuancehoe) video of her reaction to the Rod Meldrum interview and he was basically saying stuff published ON THE ACTUAL CHURCH WEBSITE is wrong - some of the essays I think. So if they can be wrong then why not be wrong about the racist stuff too? I guess questioning a website vs the Book of Mormon is different. But they've altered the Book of Mormon before too so 🤷♀️
Maybe they have a grudge against John Oliver because of that episode he did about televangelists extorting people for money. He included a few clips of mormon leaders telling people to give them money instead of paying tuition or debt or, you know, feeding their children 😢
I love being “impregnated” by the truth from Zelph on the shelf & Mormon stories… 😂
23:23 Karl Popper's famous essay Science as Falsification gives 6 points for separating good science from pseudoscience. Here's a quote:
"I found that those of my friends who were admirers of Marx, Freud, and Adler, were impressed by a number of points common to these theories, and especially by their apparent explanatory power. These theories appear to be able to explain practically everything that happened within the fields to which they referred. The study of any of them seemed to have the effect of an intellectual conversion or revelation, open your eyes to a new truth hidden from those not yet initiated. Once your eyes were thus opened you saw confirmed instances everywhere: the world was full of verifications of the theory. Whatever happened always confirmed it. Thus its truth appeared manifest; and unbelievers were clearly people who did not want to see the manifest truth; who refuse to see it, either because it was against their class interest, or because of their repressions which were still "un-analyzed" and crying aloud for treatment."
I have found with apologists (and just bad arguments in general) asking why tends to let a bad argument fall apart
If I became the "profit" of the SLC based sect of Mormonism I would dissolve and liquidate everything and refund all of the money to the marks, I mean members.
"No one is holding a gun to you, forcing you to watch Mormon Stories." I laughed way too hard at the mental image of you two standing behind someone going, "Now sit here and watch John Dehlin do a 15 hour interview! Do it!"
(All love to Mormon Stories as a NeverMo, the interviews are always fascinating.)
I hate apologetics! It's great that you guys are able to cut through the bs!
1:29:29 He called himself the _Muhammad of America?_ Oh, the devil in Hell, what? What? That’s _insane._ He was literally Andrew Tate.
My brain hurts from the intellectual dishonesty. "No-one ACTUALLY reads charts". Just... WOW. I'm seeing the whole "Spiritual R" thing every now and then, and it's absolutely disgusting on its own, but combined with the polygamy apologetics, it's beyond infuriating.
As an exmormon, I do not give a f%ck about what is legal when it comes to Mormonism, because of what Mormonism claims to be (i.e. the only organization on earth that is authorized to represent a deity). I care about what is moral. This apologist's defenses of Mormonism are appallingly immoral.
1:05:07 I think "too bad to be true" means "circumvents logic by triggering fear."
Can those of us who are spiritual masochists get a link to the article, so that we may read it for ourselves and gain a testimony of its unhingedness?
www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/conference/august-2019/fear-leads-to-the-dark-side
@@ZelphOntheShelf Wow it gets even dumber right after you where you left off:
"'People will believe a lie because they want to believe it’s true, or because they are afraid it might be true.'
On one hand, this has to do with how I approach a text. If I fear that the text is right, I will be more gullible. If I hope for it, ditto.
So, if someone can get another to fear that something could be true, half of the battle of convincing him is already won.
Thus fear leads to the dark side.
In those cases I have to be doubly critical."
The lack of self-awareness these people have is infuriating.
Physicists here
Einstein quote: "God does not play dice"
was his poetic was of saying he believes the inherent indeterminism of Quantum Physics (new at the time) cannot be fundamental.
We now have a lot more reasons to believe Einstein was wrong about that. Also, most modern technology is using quantum physics to work.
This has NOTHING to do with the randomness in the theory of evolution. That's due to complexity. It can occur even in classical physics, which is fully deterministic.
It’s so fascinating, every time I hear Mormons, Christians, Jews, Muslims, JWs, etc all use the EXACT SAME ARGUMENTS for why THEIR god is the real one and all the others are wrong.
The term "God does not play dice" was said by Einstein as a way to express how he felt about quantum mechanics. He very explicitly has said that whenever he invites invokes God, he is talking about the nature of the universe. He was never referring to a literal deity.
Einstein’s God was the cosmos, which is called Pantheism. Science cannot prove or disprove the existence of a transcendent Deity. That is not the purpose of science. 😊😊😊
57:30 I am literally at work making a pi chart while listening to this HOW DARE YOU 😭
Hahahaha
If you want to be a Mormon..Be one! If you don’t want to be a Mormon..Don’t! God Controls it Anyway! God put me in the Mormon church for Good Reason and 50 years later He took me Out for Good Reason. 😊❤
That sounds like predestination, which would mean choice doesn’t exist. Give yourself some credit 😊
Dude, I knew about the rock in the hat thing over 40 years ago as a non-mormon in the midwest...
Listen to what Sam & Tanner are telling you!
My favorite quote was by Samuel Clemens(Mark Twain!) after reading the Book of Mormon famously called it "Chloroform in print!"...
@@timnewman1172 There's even a book called "Ether". If that won't wipe you out, nothing will!
1:21:30 The age of consent thing doesn’t mean pedophilia was accepted. There are other factors like having a minimum base age that other jurisdictions can modify (ex. Japan), Romeo / Juliet Laws, etc. Basically, you don’t want to create a situation where some 16 year old kid goes to jail for kissing a 14 year old at the fair.
The other issue is that many American states lack _necrophilia_ laws, or did, until very recently. This doesn’t mean necrophilia was accepted or common. It was actually _the opposite._ Necrophilia was so utterly unheard of that there wasn’t even the idea of prohibiting it. People don’t ban things that aren’t happening. People ban things that happen. Most of the modern US laws against necrophilia developed as a result of _someone being caught boning* a corpse._ Oftentimes the victims (the family of the deceased) are horrified to discover, in, like, 1992, that they had no legal recourse for someone skullf-cking their mom.
To return to Christianity, consider St. Paul’s letters. The dude specifically bans women preachers. Why? Because _early Christianity had women preachers._
All of this is to say that much Mormon apologia is based on a historical misunderstanding I call the _”Game of Thrones_ Effect”. So many modern people seem to think that the average medieval couple consisted of a 12 year old girl and a 45 year old man. (Which is addressed 1:21:56). They don’t appreciate how extremely young marriages were mainly an issue of _politics_ and not consummated. Many of these marriages involved _young boys,_ which is something these creeps tend to overlook in their pursuit of young girls. You can see this in media like _The Trees They Do Grow High._ Although there was a massive variety across Medieval Europe, it wasn’t abnormal to see 1 out of every 10 women single and owning a business. The average couple was more likely to be a 24 year old woman and her 26 year old husband, rather than some pedophilic fantasy. That is, their excuses that “this is how it was done back then” is objectively wrong. People knew, even back then, that grown men like Joseph Smith marrying girls was _wrong._ That’s why art pieces like Pukirev’s _The Unequal Marriage_ were made two decades after Smith’s death. In Russia. A country that has an _older_ Christian faith than the Mormons.
But even if these clowns were right and the past was just one never ending serial SA-film-fest starring Everyone All The Time, it wouldn’t make it _right._ This is an appeal to popularity, or, rather, the popular opinion of the past. It’s an appeal to a tradition that they concede is _bad_ (because didn’t those same states persecute Smith?). Why do the laws of Massachusetts matter sometimes, but not all the time? (1:21:49 “He did break anti-bigamy laws!”) Why do these rules matter in of themselves? These questions are deflected.
Nice channel. I took serious issue with what I perceived as very naïve opinions in another video, but I still think you’re both clever and well-read. You guys are a much less serious and emotionally-draining duo to learn about Mormonism from. Other channels are fine, but they can be utterly brutal at times. This is very much like the “Wendigoon” of ExMo community. In my ex-Catholic opinion.
*Bone. Ha.
"Most people believe in a soul, so it must be true!" That is such a fallacy and falls apart if you think about it for more than 2 seconds. Like, at one point in time, most people thought blood-letting was a good way to treat illnesses. A belief held by the majority does not necessarily make it true.
That being said, I'm not even sure where I stand on the concept of a soul or a spirit, but I don't want to rule it out entirely. We don't really have a way to prove or disprove it.
It’s an argument from popularity / authority.
So hear me out... Microplastics in your blood? Leeches suck out the blood, body makes new blood, now less microplastic in your blood.
How sure are we that bloodletting is a bad idea?
I just found your channel today and I really like it! I was never quite so bad as to be a fundie, but I grew up in the church (French Catholic) and in religious schools. I can't look at stained glass windows anymore without feeling... bleak... Such a wild life, growing up in an environment like this. Thanks for making things, yall!
🤗🩵
Jonathan streeter's fake newsroom apology was a huge shelf item for me! Just hearing about it in the first place because I knew the church would never apologize. And secondly because I thought it was going to be really snarky and sarcastic but was actually done quite well. Made it even worse for my cognitive dissonance
Sam omg I LOVE your top I can't get over it
It’s from Pibb’s in SLC and I think it’s new aka they have others!
1:22:48 Transaction in the barn? Like he made a deposit?
Are we on Stephanie #5 on Patreon? I'm only seeing four. I'll probably rewatch all of them anyway because it's so entertaining 🍺💊
We just filmed 5 yesterday so it should be up today or tomorrow! :)
@@ZelphOntheShelf Yay! 🥳
@@ZelphOntheShelf woohoo!
I highly recommend the book A Short Stay in Hell by Steven Peck for an exploration of what living for eternity would really be like! So so good.
that thing you said about evolution + the edible i took an hour ago have me weeping crying screaming shitting you are so right. youre right i shouldnt drop out of college before i finish my archaeology degree
Pseudepigrapha is pronounced "soodoePIGrafa" for future videos. I love Bart Herman's work
Kinderhook Plates was a setup with Mormons purposefully at the dig where the hoaxter had them "discovered". JS could have been chomping at the bit, or he could have realized off the hop it was a hoax cuz his were too, but felt painted into a corner by making people believe in ancient plates being dug up in their backyards
Bart Ehrman?
30:12 it's a reference to the Uncertainty Principle - which Einstein initially rejected (saying 'God does not play dice') but which then turned out to be correct.
I am living for the intermittent censorship
Just trying to do the bare minimum to keep the demonetization police off our backs haha
I left the church at 18. I'm 26 now, as I learn these deep wrongings of the church fir the 1st time. I've been realizing, as a child I had enough logic to assume these biblical stories were just stories- like I genuinely didn't think the adults thought it was a real history. This makes me sad that my dad wholeheartedly follows this church, even though he is more Christian than Mormon. It's still so sad. I mentioned Joseph Smith raping a 16 yr old girl and my mom was shocked, she didn't doubt me but said she was never taught that. I hope she doubts the church but more so I want my dad to leave.
56:45 was that a Mother Mother reference? 😊
"I only trust, 'doctors without degrees'." Lol
any 30 rockers in the house tonight?
@@ZelphOntheShelf No I haven't seen it. I've never been religious, I'm not sure if I've ever met a mormon. Are there mormons in New Zealand? Probably somewhere. Anyway I just watch because you are awesome people and your content is really entertaining.
@@randomname4726 ❤️❤️❤️
Every person who's played The Sims with cheats knows that the boundless afterlife existence mormons believe in would get so boring. That's why you get real into it for like one week when you get a little too high and then abandon it for 6 months
I love how Tanner says that Noah’s Arc is the most bat shit impossible story ever told because that’s something my mom and I talk about all of the time. Her biggest argument/question always being, “how would it have been possible for them to have survived being on a boat with two of every animal on the planet? AND how could they have possibly fit two of every animal on the planet on one boat? The smell alone would have killed them. And what about predatory animals? How did they keep the predators from killing everyone?”
Can we talk about Sam just disappearing for a sec at 28:58 i was so confused lol
needed an energy drink 🙈
Tanner losing it 😂😂😂
The over concern for LDS people is the thing that bothers me most about Mormon Stories. John isn't wrong to be like that, but Mormons Stories bends over backwards almost continually to make LDS people feel comfortable.
Yeah I kinda know what you’re saying. Probably because he has learned over years and years that Mormons are sensitive little babies and will whine or click away at the slightest provocation and he is trying to get through to them, which I understand and respect, but they probably aren’t watching his show anyways and if they are they should just hear it like it is and not some nice guy watered down opinions. But like I said they are almost all (from my experience ) far too ignorant to even click on a Mormon stories podcast if it has any ‘non faith promoting’ title or if they knew he was excommunicated etc
Okay, I have to say this: Italians tend to say "allora" after sentences. It's a high feedback culture. German is not. It's similar to "right?, you got it, okay, ect" The author just doesn't get Italians. 😂
William 'Marx' 😆... apologists call every apostate a commie and you've fallen right into their trap.
There is a William Marks in LDS history. Tanner probably just mixed him up with William Law.
Yeah I'm pretty sure it was William Law
Hey now! Helen Mar Kimball was 30 minutes shy of her 15th birthday. That makes it practically okay. Don't tell me otherwise or that's abuse
Good lord😂…y’all are so loved, thanks for the vid
I was familiar with Emily Partridge's testimony ("carnal intercourse") but I wasn't aware of Meg Stout's apologetic explanation: ...“carnal intercourse” would also be a legitimate description of passing Joseph a platter of turkey or chicken or mutton or beef at a meal.
I can tell this apologist has never published a research paper in an academic journal. The peer review process is brutal, especially for high-impact journals. The reviewers tear apart your manuscript, closely scrutinizing the research methods, especially data collection, the statistical analysis, and conclusions drawn from the results. Any imperfections in the research design or methods that might impact the results, or if your conclusions don't aren't closely aligned with the results, will result in a paper not being published. Maybe the apologist is used to publishing in mormon journals where the only criteria for publication is that what you're saying aligns with the current doctrine?
From a data analyst, we don't count the checkmarks , that's what pivot tables are for 😉
Sounds abusive
@@ZelphOntheShelf absolutely.
william marx
Yes Tanner, destroy that lawn!
Great video and I like what you're doing.
50:18 oh dear, I hope he didn’t give himself a concussion during this episode! Although I understand the desire to head-butt/facepalm myself into oblivion with that crap.
45:54 wow. I can't believe they actually wrote that. Unbelievable!
30:00 ok, someone needs to explain "God does not play dice."
It's a counter to the Copenhagen interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, which was new at the time and describes the universe as truly random (not just too chaotic to determine in practice - actually random, not even predictable in principle).
It's the most commonly accepted interpretation of Quantum mechanics, but it's not the only one and it's not known for sure to be true.
Thank you. 🦩
21:26
Jonathan Streeter was very helpful in my early deconstruction when working through undue influence, but I got really disappointed when he made and doubled down on the unhinged take of equating social justice to fascism. Def a privilege to not have to take understanding of that sociology and apply it to all power dynamics in a larger scope.
I also agree that his satire probably did have a useful effect on members, but there were also a lot of Black members and postmormons who were heartbroken that it wasn't real, so it seemed kinda fucked up to punch down like that (even if he didn't realize that would happen), esp on an issue of racism. Like (not to equate the struggles) I appreciate calling out a homophobe, but how about you don't do that by qrting the guy's tweet in front of your queer friends and calling him closeted as a dunk??
...I made the mistake of just glancing at his fb page and immediately got a bunch of posts of transphobic fearmongering lmao
Cool shirt, Sam.
I have the same reaction to mormon apologists when I encounter them online as I do to flat-earthers: BLET 🤢
Thank you for slumming it long enough to deal with that junk!
It is obvious that neither of you can distinguish between Christian Orthodoxy and Progressive Modernism in biblical studies. Modernism in religion came about primarily after the publication of “Origin of Species” by Charles Darwin in 1859; prior to that Modernism in religious studies gained acceptance in Europe after philosophical rationalism had taken root in the universities. In order to defend Modernism, one must prove the failed theory of Darwinism scientifically- molecules to mankind. The issue of miracles or naturalism in the Bible hinges upon one’s worldview and/or philosophical commitments, not the actual evidence. For more information on the background of the New Testament canon, I recommend “New Testament Introduction” by Donald Guthrie, London Bible College. 😊😊😊
If anyone ever tells you to ignore evidence in favour of your philisophical commitments or personal worldview, they have no intellectual integrity. They are misleading you. They are a bad actor.
Minute 36. He read "the Talmud" just out of interest before age 13? I'm not saying that's impossible, but highly unlikely.
Boy genius!
Spoke fluent Hebrew and read all 13 volumes, clearly. And the commentaries. Because talmudic study includes reading commentary, or at least the entire talmud, which isn't available in translation. Only partial translations are available for the Talmud.
@@songs-of-seers5139 Yeah. I'd buy the Torah or Tanakh, but I don't know many Jews who would claim we've "read the Talmud" like any other book during a comparative religion study.
Have you ever listened to John Hamer from Center Place in Toronto ?
yeah! he’s great!
There's multiple stories of the Jesus story as well so which one to believe which one is wrong, right?
So I'm a little confused abt the dude saying books is anachronistic... like... biblion is a word in 5th century bce attic (the athenian ancient greek dialect that gave the koine, whixh is biblical greek...) like books werent binded like todays books are ofc, they were long scrolls of papyrus, but it was still a book??? Like the concept remained the same???? Maybe I'm just confused bc english isnt my fiest language but ?????
The more I listen, the more I'm confused; we know fiction (like novels and shits) existed like super early in human history, and I'm not talking abt myths being written down, I'm talking abt us knowing some type of erotic books were super popular with spartan women in the classical period around 450 bce???? Like fiction is not a new thing????
Like the classicist in me is so fucking confused rn oh my god
The writer of this article doesn't believe that Joseph Smith was a treasure digger? Because they clearly imply that it's a BAD thing when they try to compare it to evil ex Mormons. Unless this is one of those times where they ironically undercut their own beliefs like when they say "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist."
Yeah, the faith-thing really bugs them. They'll often say "We all have faith in something". Okay fine, but can we not put so much faith in our imaginary friends?
Carnal intervourse is passing MEAT!😂i actually LOLd and my byu roommate is tryna sleep
What is CES?
D: my face during all of this
I enjoy the thumbnail photo of Tanner on this video. He looks like he is trying to divine the contents of a sealed box. He needs a turban, lots of jewels...
The guy talking about fake science and the John Oliver thing… do people like that just not realize they sound sooooo dumb? They think they sound so intellectual, when in fact, the mental gymnastics are making me dizzy
I hate this and will experience it with you anyway Haha ❤
This reticence towards asking questions is very similar in mainstream Protestant evangelical Christianity.
Source: me, a deconstructing Christian.
Is he kinda sort of saying that spreadsheets are demonic?
Ok this idea is a lil half baked but hear me out: merch that somehow depicts excel formulas and charts as witchcraft. I would purchase a mug, a shirt, a hoodie? I want it to exist.
Wish he could have just admitted that he doesn’t know excel
This is the best video I’ve ever seen 🤣
I couldn't watch this in one sitting. The level of pseudo intellectualism in the article was just completely asinine. Little details like using the term 'intelligencia' which is a term used to describe certain people within a certain period of history were just so disingenuous
Books didn't become popular until far into Christianity's growth
Not the 1d fanfiction comment👀
You should really check out The Good Place.
Love that show!
are you sure my ex didn’t right this ? the projection and gas lighting in this essay reminds me of him. the church is so similar to a mental illness with delusions being one of the symptoms. there is a treatment, but it’s a bit uncomfortable at first…… and there will be withdrawal symptoms.
Are you guys from UK
Just one of us!
My brother thinks Jesus’s disciples took his body and ate it. Because it’s literally what he told them to do. They even rehearsed it.
This is the theology I come to the comments section for. Is your brother also a fan of the book “stranger in a strange land”?
What about the abusive questions asked to young children about their sexual purity and worthiness.
Omg. I could keep going but you don’t have enough room 🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️
Asking 8 year olds to profess their testimony of Joseph smith and the religion is forcing children to lie and believe it to get baptized for their parents to fit in the cult