I remember one day in my freshman year of high school, I convinced my stepdad to get me a mocha frappe from McDonald’s before school. Apparently he either texted/ called my mom (both Mormons btw) and she tried to shame me for getting the drink and drinking actual coffee when I was with my dad. Heck even the branch president came over and pretty much held my temple recommend over my head to get me to stop drinking coffee. I was a people pleaser so I pretty much complied. Now that I’m free from both my mom and the church, I can get a frappe any time I want. I might actually order one on DoorDash rn 🤔🤔🤔 Edit: I got my mocha frappe.
It’s actually so sad they do this to their members. Joseph Smith even said, it was not to be given as a Commandment, but by greeting. Go look at your doctrine and covenants you don’t believe that comment! As a lifelong Mormon, for many many years, I was always told that the reason why they said to take the spittoons out of the temple, was because it was filthy and dirty, because the men used to chew tobacco, and the women used to squabble with each other if they didn’t get their morning coffee, and it became problematic among the members that time, so Joseph decided it would be better for the members if they would abstain, so they would not behave negatively to one another. But for it to keep people out of the temple, and to be that severe of a requirement, today shows it is nothing more than a cult commandment.
I have a theory that one reason tea and "hot drinks" were banned due to the fact many tea rooms / tea times were for women to come together (without male escorts, gasp!) and discuss social issues, commonly women spaces. Also in doing some research to double check myself I found out a lot of tea rooms in the early 1900s were owned by single women and provided income for those who otherwise didn't have many job opportunities, and Mormons would've hated that! Lol
Yeah, I have no problem with someone deciding for themselves to not do something (Im not a big drinker cause I have a low tolerance for alcohol and Ive never smoked weed because I was worried it might made my adhd worse!) But when someone has to abstain from something because someone else has told them to but they actually would like to do it, this is where I have a problem with religion. They might argue that people want to steal or murder but they have to be stopped, but thats a totally different argument based on real morals that make sense. Whats so immoral about caffiene or going clubbing?
Baking snickerdoodles for church functions is quite socializing. Slamming Mormons is slamming Amerikan history. Use caution when supporting your own gin o'cide.
I’ve had visits from two pair of missionaries this year. They’re nice young people. It was interesting and easy initially. Once I visited their church the people more local to this town became quite pressuring. An urgency of sorts. I couldn’t comprehend why my discomfort with that was shut down. I asked if the roles were reversed and I knocked at your door and asked you throw from the window everything you’d come to believe during your life, wouldn’t you question that. It was as if they would prefer a person pliable and blindly following. I can’t understand that. I’d be cautious of someone that seemingly would abandon everything and jump ship so readily. It seems as if they’d prefer a thoughtful decision rather than a malleable one. It was uncomfortable. Really enjoy the two of you sharing your thoughts.
I often feel sorry for the young missionaries. I guess they're learning lessons about life and many of them later on come to realize that their leaders manipulated them in dealing with people in very unnatural, unhealthy, unproductive ways (leaving aside the other issue that many of them come to realize that they didn't even know much about the very church that they were trying to persuade others to join). They're usually managed by a "mission president". A mission president is more often than not a man who desires high status in the church and sees being a mission president as a golden opportunity to be noticed by the top leaders of the church, and elevated to higher status if the top leaders like what they see. Typically, the best way for a mission leader to get positive recognition from the top leaders is to have statistically high numbers of "conversions" (i.e. baptisms). As a result, instead of approaching the missionary work as a calm, unfrenzied, empathy-oriented series of conversations and dialog with people who may be interested in the Mormon message (such as it is), the ambitious mission presidents (taking their cues from the goals of the top leaders of the church), basically turn the young missionaries into high-pressure sales people, with tactics and gimmicks and sales goals (baptism goals) that are things that one would ordinarily associate with ethically challenged used-car sales people and multi-level marketing programs. As I see it, the Mormon missionary program and strategies have been extremely counter-productive for decades.
@@TEAM__POSEID0N I couldn't have said it better. Young missionaries try to impress their mission president with numbers, then mission presidents try to impress the area presidency, who in turn tries to impress the first presidency in Salt Lake. Real conversion is totally secondary in this game of interests/power/glory/money.
It's true, there's a lot of pressure on you to be baptized quickly bc they are on a tight deadline! They move around a lot and try to convert as many as they can, as fast as they can. Also they don't teach you most of the deeper, more mystical and more offensive parts of church history prior to baptizing you. Cuz once you're in officially you won't be as likely to run away upon finding out about that stuff.
@@sydneychristensen2058 The more mystical stuff that they don't tell you about up front, parallels much of the higher teachings of freemasonry. Which of course was copied.
Next time pls feed them. They're very hungry and usually homesick. If you ask them not to proselytize they won't. I've had lovely conversations getting them to talk about their lives, families, future plans. Very nice decent young people.
Y'all absolutely nailed this. I am relatively open with my having been raised Mormon and I get asked a lot ab the Coke/coffee thing. I make a point to tell ppl that the refusal to drink any caffeinated soda is actually not a real rule, but a cultural rule because coffee is banned for no real reason, therefore people assume the caffeine content is the reason why. And I absolutely agree that the harsh and forced abstinence from all these things creates an us vs. them thing. Sober ppl in general will tell you they feel kind of alienated bc drinking socially is so common, but in this religious sense, not being able to partake in ANY of these things that people do recreationally to create dopamine can make them much more removed from regular society.
And even though it is perfectly fine not to drink at a party where people drink, the church highly discourage going to this kind of parties, furthering the social isolation of the members. Also it can also happen in reverse, in some cultures. In France most people would be very surprised, and some even offended if you refuse to partake in alcohol with them, especially if you clink your glass with theirs when it contains a non-alcoholic beverage.
Caffeine is everywhere even Coke-Cola is bad and people get type 2 diabetes and high blood pressure. Even they love to eat high-caffeine chocolate like cookies, cake and brownies.
@@trifonTAF yes, I agree. It's strange how alcohol is so polarizing in that way. I totally agree that you can be made to feel "other" if you don't drink, but that the church encourages you to avoid hanging w people who drink at all in order to avoid feeling that way. It's normal for ppl to associate more w ppl they have more in common with, but the rhetoric that drinking is inherently evil creates a much more extreme us vs. them mindset that often makes Mormons feel like they're above those who drink.
@@ChristinaOstil115 except Coke is bad especially because of its high sugar contents (similar to fruit juices actually, so avoid those too, better eat the fruit whole with all of its fibers, which softens the glycemic peak)
When I was told about the whole coffee thing while I was stuck in the Mormon church, I thought "maybe it's because they want everyone to be tired because tired people are easier to control", especially with the way that at the camps they would make you get up at obscenely early times seminary would be very early in the morning.
Having water instead of wine is so wild to me, the (Lutheran) churches where I live commonly use non-alcoholic wine or even grape juice (mainly to allow more people to participate!) Water seems like an absolute last resort
@@zhazhagab0r nonalcoholic wine tastes like wine, it's made pretty much like regular wine. grape juice is just juice, tastes sweet and has not been fermented in any way!
My dad has a few Chinese coworkers and they were APPALLED to hear that he doesn’t drink tea. I imagine members of the church that live in Asian cultures that value tea so much feel incredibly isolated.
@@superfreakmusic7681 Tea is much more crucial in many east asian cultures. It's present during every meal, you offer it to guests as part of basic rules of hospitality, and not offering or accepting tea so seen as incredibly rude and even outright hostile. in the uk you might get raised eyebrows but tea isn't nearly as as crucial to socialising and even basic polite etiquette as it is in countries like China or Japan.
‘I’m glad I’m not addicted to coffee!’ Right. You just need a Large Red Bull every single morning just to function… but you aren’t addicted to the ‘evil’ beverage.
I have always loved reading the stories and journal entries from apostles in the late 19th c. (long after the WofW revelations) about drinking wine and eating cakes in the temple -- makes you think the temple might have been a 19th c. version of a guy's night under the guise of religiosity.
I don’t understand why Emma had to give up her tea. She was already giving something up in exchange for the tobacco-chewing drunks. She gave up cleaning up after their thankless, ungrateful asses.
"Mild barley drinks" please tell me y'all know about Postum! Postum is a coffee substitute made of barley, and was all the rage among mormons when I was growing up in the 80s/90s.
Not to mention it was invented by CW Post (Post brand cereal) because he believed caffeine was the cause of the worlds evils. CW Post was mentored by John Kellogg (Kellogg brand cereal) who invented corn flakes because he thought they would keep you from masturbating. These men were both 7th day Adventist.
Yo I just want to say that, as a member of the church, there’s been some stuff that’s troubled me that I haven’t been able to put my finger on. And as I’ve been approaching mission age I’ve been doing a lot of reading and a lot more research than I ever have before. I’ve found that the history and the information that the church puts out seems really watered down so I’m thankful that I’ve found your channel for an alternative point of view as I search for truth.
Wow! Same thing is happening to me except I'm Muslim, I can't really find channels like Zelph for Islam, so there's been kind of a solace in this channel as I look for truth too.
Moderation is key, and knowing how you react to those substances is part of knowing how to moderate yourself. My parents used some of our family members' poor behavior when they were very clearly plastered af as a way to get us kids terrified of alcohol and try to make us not want it. But it really ended up creating so many more problems because we didn't have a good example of how to learn to drink responsibly, and because crime was the secret ingredient that made drinking so much more fun for a few of my siblings. I wish we had had better views on alcohol growing up so that some of the things we've gone through maybe wouldn't have happened, but I'm jud tglad that now, we all know better and to be a bit more responsible when we drink.
Idk how I found this channel but I've been binge watching it for days now. Your videos are so interesting! I was raised christian (catholic and then baptist) so my experience was a lot more mild than yours but some things are similar like the isolation tactics. Anyway congrats on your channel! And I just wanna add that it blew my mind that Tanner went to João Pessoa cause foreigners never know my city when I tell them about it
Watching this while drinking coffee, lol. I'm a never-mo, but raised conservative Christian and home schooled. My parents also did extreme diets. I was told that coffee was as toxic as bleach. So, here I am, the only one out of my family of origin blissfully enjoying coffee. I'm such a rebel.
You two are so educated and eloquent in your explanations. I'm currently transitioning out of Mormonism and really feel a sense of belonging and connection here. Thank you :)
I'm ExMo, 45 years old, and I didn't know most of this. Thank you both very much. I'm dedicating my third cuppa joe to you two and your cat this morning ☕️
I just love you both sooo much. I'm your JW cousin here and appreciate all you do for those of us that have successfully exited cult life. You guys were a vital part of my healing and helping me stay/feel sane during some of my darkest moments. Much love to you two, you're both beautiful, smart & funny. ❤️ Thank you!❤️
7:12 Are you kidding? That is the most beautiful cat. Okay, there's a lot of competition, but WOW. EDIT: I can't get OVER IT. It looks so smug and beautiful. No wonder egyptians worshiped them.
I had Vicodin when I had my wisdom teeth out at 15. I thought it was brilliant, until all my pain came back at once. I have chronic illnesses. You know what I decided worked well enough? Caffeine and Ibuprophin because holy hell I didn’t want a crash like that again.
I feel it's important to point something out. Overall I agreed. But on the topic of carcinogens. Classes like class 1, 2, and so on refers to the level of evidence supporting the fact that the substance is carcinogenic. Not the degree of harm the substance can impart. It's a small but important distinction I think.
24:56 my parents were ALSO perscribed coffee by a doctor for their chronic fatigue!!! They talked with the ward bishop and thankfully he was merciful about it, (at least I think he was). But it made me feel so so so much guilt about it. We had to keep the coffee machine hidden away in my parent's bedroom and when we had friends over nobody was allowed in there because if people saw it there'd be questions and judgement and shit.
I’d love to hear you two talk more on Mormons construed or weird views on morality. I went to Disneyland with my wife’s family and my sister in law received two bags of chips when she only ordered one. My wife was like “sweet free bag of chips!” And her sister (who is a TBM) stood up and declared “no I have a thing called morals!” And went to return them only to have give her a funny look and say no just keep it 😂 and that legally they can’t take it back. I’m just thinking, a multi-billion dollar corporation that we paid hundreds of dollars to, gave you an extra bag of chips and you feel immoral for keeping it? 😂
I would have done the same thing. Not being a thief means never being a thief, even if it's as a result of someone's mistake. I'm not religious in any way, but I HATE thievery.
@@jolenejoleeene what happened was not thievery just a harmless mistake. Thievery implies intent. This is my point about construed morality. Morality isn’t black and white, you should analyze things based off of possible harm of your choice. If she insisted on her way then either the employee who took the bag back would have received a reprimand possibly losing their job for breaking legal policy or they would have thrown the bag away wasting the food. Either one would cause more harm than if she simply kept the bag. She saw herself as having superior morality and felt ashamed that she had to keep the bag even though it was the best outcome, the outcome my wife and I reached from the very beginning that she thought was so immoral of us.
@@alb958 If you were supposed to pay for something and didn't without express permission, it's thievery. That is not a gray area. If they let her keep it, all is good. If the employee gets reprimanded, that's crap but not her fault. If they throw it away, that's also crap and wasteful. But crappy outcomes are not thievery.
@@jolenejoleeene again it was a harmless accident, call it thievery if you want but I disagree. In that situation I’d rather keep the chips and be labeled a thief by people like you to avoid the possibly of more harmful unnecessary outcomes.
I was taking a course in college and I can’t remember the exact source but there was some sort of book or writing during that time period that sounded exactly like the Word of Wisdom. This idea didn’t come out of nowhere
The whole “I don’t need to understand the why, obedience is a virtue” thing drives me up the wall, because wasn’t that Satan’s whole deal? His plan was “let’s put everyone on Earth and tell them to do this, this, and this, and then everyone will get into heaven!” But God and Jesus were like, “no, they need to have agency. Instead, we’re gonna put everyone on earth and tell them that if they don’t do this, this, and this, then they won’t get into heaven, but it’s their choice.”
When I was a secretary in the political science department at BYU I helped a professor proofread a paper called “Why a Mormon Won’t Drink Coffee But Might Have a Coke.” Such a strange, complicated religion 😂
You can be technically chemically dependant on caffeine and even get headaches as withdrawal symptoms. Not as bad as most addictive drugs or anything though and you're right about the health benefits of coffee.
@@boysrus61 Sugar is awful for you, and I suppose you could say it's addictive, but you won't have physical withdrawal symptoms from lack of sugar. Therefore, you can't be chemically dependant on it. Having a few soda drinks daily that are high in sugar is definitely worse for your body than a few cups of coffee daily, though. Unless you're putting crazy high amounts of sugar in the cofee. I definitely agree with the video that it's stupid for Mormons to be against drinking coffee, tea, or even small amounts of alcohol, when they aren't against having crazy amounts of sugar in their diets or anything else that's unhealthy.
Orthodox jew here...its wool and linen...and nobody has separate kitchens for meat and dairy except in industrial settings. We just have separate dishes (and sinks if we're able, for convenience, because they cant be mixed.)
@@ZelphOntheShelf I’m an Ex-Muslim, now agnostic. I actually find the Mormon Church to be a net positive for society. It doesn’t preach violence like Islam, and its emphasis on the structure of families is amazing. Utah has the highest percentage of children to adult ratio, and they are the least to live in poverty. - One thing will earn the charge +A from me, let members drink coffee and tea!😂
@@hus390 there are plenty of mormon teachings and practices that lend themselves to violence, and mormons have been some of the worst perpetrators of violence in the american west (eg Mountain Meadows massacre, Circleville massacre, etc). Mormon teachings on the family are likewise problematic, since they shame, isolate, and abuse people who don’t fall within their established bounds of normalcy, which is why they see an exceptionally high rate of queer teen suicide and queer depression generally. Considering how the church has to defraud and manipulate members while only donating a comically small percentage to humanitarian efforts (but still has a robust budget for legally protecting predators and fighting gay marriage worldwide) it doesn’t seem like a net positive to me. But understandable how people with different backgrounds can see it differently.
I'm trying to imagine a Salt Lake City supermarket. I remember pushing a cart around a store in what I didn't know was a dry town in Texas. Finally, I asked a clerk where the beer aisle was. He looked at me and said, "You're not from around here, are you?"
Mormons here in Utah swear off coffee but they keep the soda companies and energy drink companies in business. Something I found very interesting in the video was about the meat eating. I had no idea about that. Funny thing about living in a Utah small town when someone passes away, most of the time they serve lots of yummy beef. I've never seen one of them pass on the meat. Great video guys!
Hi, I lived with a 7-day Adventist woman and her family for a good portion of my childhood. The aren’t all vegetarian, not at all. It’s not a rule in their religion. More cultural I think? They also drink coffee. However, none of them eat pork or shellfish. It’s a weird religion. I had to do this youth group thing called “Pathfinders” it’s sort of like religious Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts…but their uniforms looked shockingly like Hitler youth uniforms. I got in realllly big trouble for pointing that out/making fun of it. Oh they also attend church on Saturday. Something about the 10 commandments saying to keep the 7th day holy- hence the name of their religion.
Thats what bothers me-the amount of BS they have to come up with to support these silly rules and convince themselves that it's their own viewpoint when if given the chance they wouldnt follow them. I remember feeling this way about having to be anti gay, and anti abortion and I just got to a point where I said 'but I DONT agree with this stance, **** what the church says, Im following my heart. I didnt abandon my faith but I do make it my own and dont let anyone tell me what to do or believe.
@@ZelphOntheShelf i have no clue. I know people who stay away from hot chocolate and hot apple cider too, it's uncommon, but if I remember right that missionary was "one of those" he also brought up eating soup too hot.
34:48 MOT here - it’s specifically kosher meat and kosher dairy, and is built upon a suggestion that you not eat a calf boiled in the milk of its own mother.
Funny you should bring up the 7th Day Adventists and their vegetarianism. There's a 7th Day church down the road and I've been tempted for years to attend once just to make some friends and find out how the heck they afford a healthy diet in this place 😅 Edit- I live in Newfoundland. We're an island in the Atlantic. There are like 5 vegetables that grow here and the rest has to be brought in by boat. My husband is most definitely a carnivore and wants meat for supper, so we usually have meat for supper (try to at least stay away from red meats as often as possible) but I personally rarely eat meat otherwise throughout the day. Plus there are certain meals I make for us that are meaty for him and meatless for me quite easily, like pizza. I leave the pepperoni off my side.
I found out after leaving the church that I am hyper sensitive to caffeine…it throws me into a panic attack. As an exmo, I’m so bitter about this fact 😂
Try a coffee that has removed the toxins that alot of brand name coffees have. It's probably not the caffeine but some of these toxins that are the Problem.
Last year I started drinking coffee. A cup of coffee four days a week has allowed me to get off my anxiety meds (under the supervision of my psychiatrist) and I now no longer have issues with two ailments I've struggled with my entire life. So I could have been spared years of suffering if I had just had coffee but I grew up in the church and even after leaving it took years before I realized that I didn't need to keep following the Word of Wisdom.
You will not die from caffeine withdrawal but you CAN die from too much in one day especially if you have a heart condition. But if would have to be a ton like 20 cups or something of strong coffee
Healthline website: Instead of thinking about coffee in terms of cups - yes, one coffee cup is about 8 ounces - think about your consumption in terms of total caffeine. One cup typically equals about 70 to 140 milligrams of caffeine. “Although further studies are needed to identify the best amount, in general, consuming less than or equal to 400 milligrams of caffeine a day, or about four or five cups, is what we’d recommend,” Dr. Zahn says.
Thanks for this, and all of your videos 😊❤ I grew up in a Christian cult and watching you guys always makes me think how stupid the rules were 😂❤ Thanks for making me smile 🙃😍🇬🇧
It's good to discuss the health benefits of coffee, but caffeine definitely IS an addictive substance (not that that's necessarily really a bad thing) as it can cause cravings and withdrawal symptoms like headaches, irritability, and difficulty concentrating. Something doesn't need to have extremely harmful withdrawal symptoms to count as addictive. The caffeine industry now also operates similar to the tobacco industry in the past, targeting young consumers to get them hooked on a product early with bright, tween/teen friendly branded energy drinks that are advertised by people with a young audience like Logan Paul and TikTik influencers. I don't think anything could be as culturally relevant and popular as coffee or cigarettes or alcohol if it wasn't addictive and habit forming
When I studied in Japan, I learnt the Japanese tea ceremony. Tea is not only a common drink, it is also a very important cultural heritage. Forbidding tea can destroy social connections revolving around sharing tea among guests. It is not comparable with swapping one drink with another.
Pleasantly surprised to hear a comment on Seventh-Day Adventism! As an ex-Adventist (now athiest), I thoroughly enjoy watching your videos and find that there are many similarities between Mormonism and SDAism (especially in the conservative Adventist circles I grew up in). If anyone else finds this interesting here is a quote from our "prophet" EGW: "Our ancestors have bequeathed to us customs and appetites which are filling the world with disease. The sins of the parents, through perverted appetite, are with fearful power visited upon the children to the third and fourth generations. The bad eating of many generations, the gluttonous and self-indulgent habits of the people, are filling our poorhouses, our prisons, and our insane asylums. Intemperance, in drinking tea and coffee, wine, beer, rum, and brandy, and the use of tobacco, opium, and other narcotics, has resulted in great mental and physical degeneracy, and this degeneracy is constantly increasing" (Counsels on Health p.49.2). Drinking tea and coffee will turn you into a broke, insane criminal! Lol, and to think I totally believed this at one point.
My friend from SLC told me that one of his parents prized possessions, is a travelling copper still that was owned by Brigham Young. One of his parents is a direct descendents of Brigham Young. Brigham Young's travelling still. Think about it, what was Brigham Young doing owning a still, he certainly not using it to make himself a mug of Postum!!!!):):)
I’ve watched a few of your videos and I find them very informative about the LDS cult. I have been a Lutheran my entire life and I think a big difference between a true Christian faith and a cult is that we are (at least in my 64 yrs of experience) are encouraged to research when in doubt. My pastor will say often”don’t just take my word for it, when in doubt, go to God’s word for clarification “ and I feel like cults like the LDS, JW, etc.. expect their members to blindly follow. Thank you for sharing your experiences
I was vegan for 3 years when I was a teenager and I went to girls camp and it had several branches on a big camp ground… the last day they roasted A WHOLE PIG. I cried. How can someone claim to be so righteous but willingly purchase and have slaughtered a prescious, sweet and loving, intelligent animal. If you preach the “word”, I will hold you to that “word”
Maybe I misunderstood what you said. Please correct me. There's a lot of commas that are used so please correct me. To me this says he is pleased when they are used not only in times of famin. That was my understanding. Looking at the commas again. I think it may say they should be used but only in times of famine. Anyone who is good at commas please help me understand. 12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly; 13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.
I thought the metaphore of the watering down of christianity was hilariously spot on if u consider that jesus was the one to do the opposite, he turned the water into wine, right? Also as somebody who grew up catholic, banning wine from christianity felt so weird since the communion is at the center of every mass. Where im from catholics still eat the bread and usually the priest and some people will drink the wine (opening enough bottles for the whole parish would be a bit expensive lmao so its a bit more limited than it used to be)
I love your thoughts! I would agree that they have the wow to control their members but it’s also a branding tool for them. If you don’t drink coffee there are very few reasons why you wouldn’t. Being Mormon is one of the first conclusions a person will come to. Then leading them to ask questions about being Mormon.
I have relatives who have converted to Mormonism and from them I was led to believe it was caffeine that was banned. I remember when we were kids they were not permitted to drink pop/soda. Mind you this was before the time of caffeine free products. On special occasions they would make homemade root beer and it was a big deal. Are caffeine free substances also banned?
Go to norway and scandinavian countries, you can definitely see people drink five cups of coffee a day because they are drinking it during the mourning and night
Wait, does is it only considered a chemical addiction if you can die from withdrawal? I thought any physical withdrawal symptoms (such as a headache) made it a chemical addiction
Your body can get used to coffee and even crave it (often to the point of headaches or anxiety if you go without), which is definitely a chemical process. I just want to be careful when conflating regular usage to something like coffee with a hardcore chemical dependency. The government defines addiction as: "a chronic, relapsing disorder characterized by compulsive drug seeking and use despite adverse consequences." I've never heard of anyone losing their life, health, job, or relationships over caffeine.
@@ZelphOntheShelf You decry church orders but listen to your government? Seriously - I hear a lot of wokeness in this channel. It's ironic to understand oppressive religions but not tyrannical guvs. Coffee IS classified as a drug and is addictive. As is sugar for many people.
Sam is correct. Back in history distilling and brewing was the only way to drink anything because there was no water treatment. Even kids. So yeah, everyone was mildly buzzed all day! Perhaps tea was safe if they boiled water long enough.
The story about Ale/beer in england was true. It was brewed 3 times on the same wort. The first brew was the strongest used for getting drunk the second a bit weaker was your day drink and the third was the childrens beer. This is very very very true as the waterways were all contaminated with all the processes that went on by rivers. Ale was brewed by women and does not have hops, beer was usually brewed by men and did not come into fashion until way later, but hops preserves it so lasts longer than ale.
You guys were talking about Joseph not being ahead of his time in terms of prohibiting alcohol and tobacco and I was just thinking like… those two things are prohibited in Islam too… …which dates back to the year ~600 AD😅
I had planned a baptism date and I think I got lucky that this issue completely popped my bubble on the mirage of Mormonism. I had come to appreciate the wholesome culture, understood the usefulness of most commandments, and figured as long as the stories taught good lessons it didn't matter if they were factually true. Yes, I was getting good at overlooking all the cracks due to "feeling the Spirit." But even after getting 80-90% of the way there, suddenly my missionaries were overly concerned that I might still be drinking one cup of DECAF coffee on occasion. That's when I realized I was signing up for the Spiritual Gestapo, not the Eternal Family of Love & Light. No argument I could use was valid, because they are taught to be blindly obedient, not use discernment and self-consciousness. I even talked with the Bishop about it, and he said that the WoW includes a statement about evil men conspiring in the latter-days to use coffee against the common people. In order words, "Starbucks is evil, but Pepsi loves you! Decaf bad, Red Bull good!" As a caveat, I heard that the American Revolution began in coffeehouses. So it makes sense that a high-demand religion wouldn't want a substance that makes its members think for themselves and discuss new ideas. Those only "come from God" (with Man as mouthpiece)! I've come to learn that all institutions like this exploit the common member. Those who figure out the scam either scheme for power in the organization, or leave. It's channels like this that make it easier to save the common person from psychic and spiritual enslavement. Thank you for elucidating these issues in such detail!
Why worry about not being able to attend a family members wedding for worthiness issues, it must not be that important for family to be there since they exclude children anyway.
Children are excluded from weddings regularly because it's often a formal event that's not very entertaining to children. Not sure how that's related to excluding adults from weddings for nonsensical rules.
@@amberinthemist7912 I find a lot of age related rules as nonsensical even though they have some decent base, I'd trust a lot 12 year olds before a lot 20 year olds in driving. Age does tend to play a role in maturity but only in the fact that as one gets older one gets more experience to base decisions off of. And as for the relation the reason children aren't allowed is because of the same limitation of having to be both endowed and worthy and I should clarify that limitation included 18 year old boys since you have to have your mission call to be endowed which you used to have to be to get your endowment. So it basically I guess it seems you have to follow their rules to even be considered an adult
Can we please be friends 😂❤?! You guys are the people I needed growing up in Utah as a non believer. This organization has affected my life just as much even though I was never a member.
Its wierd cause when youre in something like thins, being subdued and controlled, you know you dont feel good but you think that thats how its mean to be so you dont even question it or even try to feel better. We were supposed to feel bad about ourselves all the time for being worthless sinners while desperately trying to maintain 'a good witness' -so that even silly little things were frowned upon -like wearing ankle bracelets simply because somebody somewhere said that prostitutes wore them so we should 'avoid even the appearance of evil.'
I am an active member but I e always questioned this myself- you can’t go to the temple etc if you drink coffee- which is a bean ground up- but you can go to the temple if you are consuming meat three times a day which involves the killing of animals and leads to factory farming etc. it makes no sense
Also concerning hot chocolate: *It may be a topic to muse in a podcast. You may need to dig and research this more. In the 90s a petition was made to ban hot chocolate and put hot chocolate with coffee with the word of wisdom. It was proposed that there can be no gray area and as hot chocolate was a hot drink and it was highly favored to be drink often and it had a brown color (referring to the black/brown mania-paranoia or 'dark' chocolate...belief literalists wanted to create a black/white standing against the warm beverage. The literalists of the church bandwagoned and tried to push for the membership to prefer and to drink white chocolate instead. Many members complained it didn't taste the same, it looked like frothy melted butter in water, and others complained about the higher calories. Other members complained that this petition was a waste of conscience and an idiot matter of epic proportions concerning matters of Zion and the Kingdom of heaven. The literalists pushed on the principled members and the principled members gained a larger sense of cause to turn the membership to ban hot chocolate as it was a beverage against the principle of hot drink, it had the color dark brown, and it was known to have trivial amounts of caffeine. Also Members that were discouraged from drinking coffee went to hot chocolate as there go to drink. The principled members got irritated that this drink could be 'abused' in large quantities and pushed for the reform even more. The literalists were upset toward the excoffee drinkers as they were not penitent enough by behavior and they (the ex coffee drinkers) were not under their (the literalists) subjegation and direct influence to receive social glory and 'spiritual' substance (more like influence toward the inflected politics) Supposedly most of the votes of the east US were turned to believe banning hot chocolate was more a matter of sacrifice and principle, however west US/UT overturned the petition as it was considered more of a confectionary and chocolate was a main staple dessert in UT. During the time of the petition and social turmoil over hot chocolate, hot chocolate was put on a soft ban at it caused so much discontent and reluctance to have actually have had a soft fear toward the drink, while some others believed that Satan was taking over the drink and drinking it during the time of debate would've weakened the constitution of a members soul. Some members having gone through that societal ordeal still might believe hot chocolate is a soft sin/corruption and will still push against it or believe they have greater principle to not partake of hot chocolate. Some members at that time speculated that if the matter was before the 70s priesthood of blacks to the priesthood, the drink may have had more ground to be banned because of the paranoia surrounding brown/dark chocolate. Besides hot chocolate to research for your musing... There were other petitions in the 90s to cause major cultural shifts in the church started by the literalists in the church... This included: -Banning Christmas - canceling gifts, Santa Claus, the word Christmas and all references not associated with Christ. LDS Literalists hated using the word Christmas as a borrow from Catholiscm as 'The mass of Christ', they hated the commercialization and gift expectation of Christmas, and they saw the multiple traditions owed from several cultures that contributed to make the tradition of Christmas possible as defiling the meaning of Christ and/or a 'tradition of Man' befouling the day. -Banning of the use of computers. Just as computers were becoming more domestically used and available for domestic purchase, the computer was called the 'Devils box'. It was believed by those members pushing the petition / and belief that interaction and manipulation on a screen was a 'window of hell' and the coding of the computer to use 'code' was a manifestation of witchcraft and Satan was interacting with the user. Furthermore, the black floppy discs triggered those members to fear black again and only presumed cards of evil were needed to be put in the computer in order to make the witchcraft come alive. The church used microfiche more for genealogy. As the computer was introduced to replace microfiche those members further escalated their hysteria and perception of belief. -Banning video games one movement started at the end of the 80s, believing that video games were witchcrafts. Another in the 90s using mortal Kombat as the main fuel to ban all games. Another movement in 00s with some odd campaign trying to push that God doesn't tolerate/allow a simulation of life + life should not be simulated. The Literalists had a number of crazy movements with various trigger antics. Another movement stemmed from 'putting aside childish things...' and caused a stigma to grow that all priesthood holders engaging in games were insulant or pushing against their character of manhood to lose dating points. Other nutty influences introduced by a reaction of leadership assuming they were saving members or as they called it at that time 'Building fortifications as the Nephites against the buffetings of Satan' -Banning Black Sabbath - Fear against the color black again and introducing a trigger of the 'sabbath being desecrated' (I listened to it anyways, awesome track) -Ban against 80s rock and roll. A huge push on music should be pleasant, praiseworthy. Beats, screaming, and loud music was being pushed as barbaric music or music to disquiet and Rob the soul. (Still listened to it, was miles better than Come thou fountain or any church music. Mormon Rap came close, but it was still a little corny, like Blues Brothers corny.) -Ban against motorcycle culture, there was indifference made known publicly for men with long hair, not clean shaven, tattoos, and dark skin being tanned (total garbage my opinion, some of the best members came from that culture.) -Ban against 'Witches', various children's books with magic in them. -Ban against watching any performance with illusionists. Illusionists were taught as making a mockery of Priesthood and/or perverting Gods power like Moses staff/snake. -The fear of masks and the prohibition of masks to ward functions (Came about from fear/unrest in membership as the movies Freddie Kruger, nightmare on elm street, and Jason came out) -The fear of Teddy Ruxbin and talking to dolls: Seen as witchcraft, a desecration of mimicking life, and also Chucky came out in movies. -The fear of battery operated toys: Seen as witchcraft by the Literalists and the suppose of mockery against God to put/imbue an artificial 'spirit' in a doll using unrefined unnatural energy (electricity). -The fear of dice: A ban came out banning D+D rollplay. It was seen as sorcery, witchcraft and the books were disliked by the literalists. -The fear of puzzle boxes...yep hellraiser came out lol. It was amusing how petrified many members were to believe that hell was more accessible now ... Through puzzle boxes. - The fear of hell being closer than ever to the Earth/veil + The fear of space (being dark + conspiracies being made about the blackness of space)... The Movies Disney's black hole and later again with the movie Dark horizon with hell being another dimension and is just close to home in space. - Disney's Fantasia was put on ban from the pulpit growing up. (Didn't see Mickey' sorcerer's apprentice until my mid 20s) It was supposed and put forth that Satan was trying to get into the hearts of the members making sorcery, magic, necromancy available. I still remember members screaming to have mickey's sorcerer's apprentice to be shut off or changed as if evil was to leak from the tv set. Literalists were peeved that magic was replacing the respect and place priesthood had.
A juxtaposition of two very real scenarios in Mormonism: (1) A Mormon who pays his tithing, attends church regularly and is generally well-behaved can have a habit of consuming massive amounts of junk food on a daily basis, including candy bars, pizza, cheeseburgers, milkshakes, sugary soda pop drinks (uncaffeinated), ice cream and family-size bags of potato chips, while also overdosing himself on over-the-counter pain relief medications (to help counter the pain symptoms resulting from massive inflammation caused by his bad dietary practices and lack of proper nutrition), while refusing to engage in any kind of physical exercise...and, nonetheless, CAN unquestionably be found WORTHY to enter the Mormon temple simply because he ticks off all the right boxes, including the one requiring abstinence from coffee, tea, alcohol and tobacco (the "health" commandment). (2) A Mormon who pays his tithing, attends church regularly and is generally well behaved and has a very healthy lifestyle, regularly consuming only fresh organically grown vegetables (broccoli, kale, cabbage, carrots, etc.), together with moderate servings of eggs, fish and occasional red meat, and also exercises regularly (walking, bicycling, yoga, etc.)...can nonetheless be determined to be UNWORTHY to enter the Mormon temple SOLELY based on the fact that he feels strongly about drinking a weak green tea every day as part of his health regimen and refuses to lie about it when being interviewed by the Bishop. I've asked Mormons I know specifically what they feel about this juxtaposition. Most of them have confirmed to me that even now, in the third decade of the 21st century, consuming a weak cup of green tea on occasion can be regarded as a violation of their "Word of Wisdom" requirements and therefore can be a basis for denial of a temple recommend. As for the junk food consuming health disaster area referred to in the first scenario, they have confirmed that such person can indeed receive a temple recommend. Asked for comment on whether this makes any logical sense, they just shrug and mumble something about how it's really about faith and obedience more than anything else. Well...I guess that's basically the only thing they can say about it. Otherwise, the cognitive dissonance would drive them crazy.
Unless they really investigate the health benefits of tea and coffee they aren't going to even think to question the W of W. They can't go against it until they actually leave the church as their celestial kingdom spot will be taken by someone else.
I know a lot of temple going Mormons who are addicted to their diet cokes and energy drinks. Pretty sure my one mug of black coffee in the morning is waaaay healthier, but whatever. Make it make sense! 😄
I like coffee but I have noticed that drinking it too much does make me tense and messes up my sleep patterns, but does that mean drinking it should condemn me to Hell, or keep me from my family or does it even make me a bad person? If coffee drinking does not make one bad then why should it keep them out of Heaven?
My Mormon parents have embraced a vegan lifestyle for a few years now as part of their increasingly restrictive lifestyle. I think the older they get, the more rules they give themselves
If a mormon were to say, I'll stop drinking coffee when you stop eating meat when it's not winter, what would they say? Did you have to do what your family and church said, and what happened if you didn't?
Spot-on for the social / cultural connection at that comparatively recent historical moment that aligned with the Seventh-Day Adventists--_exactly right!_ Both "prophetically" created a revised "Christianity" that is ahistorical and instead just happened to be a product of its place and moment in time. It's both humorous and sad how concepts missing from both the Bible and the practices of the most ancient Church that the Bible came from, laid down in the East nearly two millennia ago, could so easily become well-known features / practices in both _American_ religions claiming to be Christian. Much of what has claimed to be Christianity for about 1,650 years is like that, even in Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox teachings which actually originate later. It's fascinating to read the actual writings of Christians that far back, from the time of the Apostles prior to Constantine and the hybridization of church and state. The Christians then definitely weren't very American, nor were they driven by the social and political causes of their day (though we would identify with certain of their values as if that was the case, like their opposition to racism despite it being rampant in the Roman Empire).
I know "lots" of mormons that drink coffee! (And they have their temple recommends, lol) Not saying what to do (or not). Does coffee really taste that good? (more than hot chocolate)?
Danish beer in Utah? In the mid 1800s? What you mean imported over the Atlantic, inland through the prairie, through the desert etc.? Yeah, obviously things are different now with modern machinery, but in those days it wouldn't even last the journey and it definitely wouldn't be economical enough to make a profit.
☝🏻Coffee and tea were commodities that took up very little space and was encouraged to use as a bargaining tool to barter with...we do drink hot cocoa/chocolate as well as herbal teas so the "hot beverage" theory doesn't make sense🤷🏻♀️
Never mo. 11:01 “a glass of wine like Jesus had every day of his life”. Never, never heard that before. I’ve had the impression that they travelled around preaching and lived from the goodness of followers for accommodation but wouldn’t wine have been only for the wealthy? 🤔
I remember one day in my freshman year of high school, I convinced my stepdad to get me a mocha frappe from McDonald’s before school. Apparently he either texted/ called my mom (both Mormons btw) and she tried to shame me for getting the drink and drinking actual coffee when I was with my dad. Heck even the branch president came over and pretty much held my temple recommend over my head to get me to stop drinking coffee. I was a people pleaser so I pretty much complied. Now that I’m free from both my mom and the church, I can get a frappe any time I want. I might actually order one on DoorDash rn 🤔🤔🤔
Edit: I got my mocha frappe.
Sad. Our mom kept instant coffee on hand for our visits. Instant coffee? Hmm.. there's a message in that
It’s actually so sad they do this to their members. Joseph Smith even said, it was not to be given as a Commandment, but by greeting. Go look at your doctrine and covenants you don’t believe that comment! As a lifelong Mormon, for many many years, I was always told that the reason why they said to take the spittoons out of the temple, was because it was filthy and dirty, because the men used to chew tobacco, and the women used to squabble with each other if they didn’t get their morning coffee, and it became problematic among the members that time, so Joseph decided it would be better for the members if they would abstain, so they would not behave negatively to one another. But for it to keep people out of the temple, and to be that severe of a requirement, today shows it is nothing more than a cult commandment.
I have a theory that one reason tea and "hot drinks" were banned due to the fact many tea rooms / tea times were for women to come together (without male escorts, gasp!) and discuss social issues, commonly women spaces. Also in doing some research to double check myself I found out a lot of tea rooms in the early 1900s were owned by single women and provided income for those who otherwise didn't have many job opportunities, and Mormons would've hated that! Lol
that definitely checks out!
Tea rooms could also get pretty gay, so there's that.
Oh that's pretty interesting!
@@davidjanbaz7728 uh huh totes
Yeah no. Stupid theory
Coffee tea and alcohol are SO social. Forbidding
these things is very isolating.
Yeah, I have no problem with someone deciding for themselves to not do something (Im not a big drinker cause I have a low tolerance for alcohol and Ive never smoked weed because I was worried it might made my adhd worse!) But when someone has to abstain from something because someone else has told them to but they actually would like to do it, this is where I have a problem with religion. They might argue that people want to steal or murder but they have to be stopped, but thats a totally different argument based on real morals that make sense. Whats so immoral about caffiene or going clubbing?
Baking snickerdoodles for church functions is quite socializing.
Slamming Mormons is slamming Amerikan history. Use caution when supporting your own
gin o'cide.
Why can't one drink a chocolate milk or soda (with friends)? Or is that taboo?
I’ve had visits from two pair of missionaries this year. They’re nice young people. It was interesting and easy initially. Once I visited their church the people more local to this town became quite pressuring.
An urgency of sorts. I couldn’t comprehend why my discomfort with that was shut down.
I asked if the roles were reversed and I knocked at your door and asked you throw from the window everything you’d come to believe during your life, wouldn’t you question that. It was as if they would prefer a person pliable and blindly following.
I can’t understand that. I’d be cautious of someone that seemingly would abandon everything and jump ship so readily. It seems as if they’d prefer a thoughtful decision rather than a malleable one.
It was uncomfortable.
Really enjoy the two of you sharing your thoughts.
I often feel sorry for the young missionaries. I guess they're learning lessons about life and many of them later on come to realize that their leaders manipulated them in dealing with people in very unnatural, unhealthy, unproductive ways (leaving aside the other issue that many of them come to realize that they didn't even know much about the very church that they were trying to persuade others to join). They're usually managed by a "mission president". A mission president is more often than not a man who desires high status in the church and sees being a mission president as a golden opportunity to be noticed by the top leaders of the church, and elevated to higher status if the top leaders like what they see. Typically, the best way for a mission leader to get positive recognition from the top leaders is to have statistically high numbers of "conversions" (i.e. baptisms). As a result, instead of approaching the missionary work as a calm, unfrenzied, empathy-oriented series of conversations and dialog with people who may be interested in the Mormon message (such as it is), the ambitious mission presidents (taking their cues from the goals of the top leaders of the church), basically turn the young missionaries into high-pressure sales people, with tactics and gimmicks and sales goals (baptism goals) that are things that one would ordinarily associate with ethically challenged used-car sales people and multi-level marketing programs. As I see it, the Mormon missionary program and strategies have been extremely counter-productive for decades.
@@TEAM__POSEID0N I couldn't have said it better. Young missionaries try to impress their mission president with numbers, then mission presidents try to impress the area presidency, who in turn tries to impress the first presidency in Salt Lake. Real conversion is totally secondary in this game of interests/power/glory/money.
It's true, there's a lot of pressure on you to be baptized quickly bc they are on a tight deadline! They move around a lot and try to convert as many as they can, as fast as they can. Also they don't teach you most of the deeper, more mystical and more offensive parts of church history prior to baptizing you. Cuz once you're in officially you won't be as likely to run away upon finding out about that stuff.
@@sydneychristensen2058 The more mystical stuff that they don't tell you about up front, parallels much of the higher teachings of freemasonry. Which of course was copied.
Next time pls feed them. They're very hungry and usually homesick. If you ask them not to proselytize they won't. I've had lovely conversations getting them to talk about their lives, families, future plans. Very nice decent young people.
Y'all absolutely nailed this. I am relatively open with my having been raised Mormon and I get asked a lot ab the Coke/coffee thing. I make a point to tell ppl that the refusal to drink any caffeinated soda is actually not a real rule, but a cultural rule because coffee is banned for no real reason, therefore people assume the caffeine content is the reason why. And I absolutely agree that the harsh and forced abstinence from all these things creates an us vs. them thing. Sober ppl in general will tell you they feel kind of alienated bc drinking socially is so common, but in this religious sense, not being able to partake in ANY of these things that people do recreationally to create dopamine can make them much more removed from regular society.
And even though it is perfectly fine not to drink at a party where people drink, the church highly discourage going to this kind of parties, furthering the social isolation of the members. Also it can also happen in reverse, in some cultures. In France most people would be very surprised, and some even offended if you refuse to partake in alcohol with them, especially if you clink your glass with theirs when it contains a non-alcoholic beverage.
Caffeine is everywhere even Coke-Cola is bad and people get type 2 diabetes and high blood pressure. Even they love to eat high-caffeine chocolate like cookies, cake and brownies.
@@trifonTAF yes, I agree. It's strange how alcohol is so polarizing in that way. I totally agree that you can be made to feel "other" if you don't drink, but that the church encourages you to avoid hanging w people who drink at all in order to avoid feeling that way. It's normal for ppl to associate more w ppl they have more in common with, but the rhetoric that drinking is inherently evil creates a much more extreme us vs. them mindset that often makes Mormons feel like they're above those who drink.
@@ChristinaOstil115 except Coke is bad especially because of its high sugar contents (similar to fruit juices actually, so avoid those too, better eat the fruit whole with all of its fibers, which softens the glycemic peak)
“I’m so glad I don’t have an addiction to coffee”
… meanwhile drinking Diet Coke and Dr. Pepper in bulk at 7 am 🥴
I grew up LDS and we never had coke or Dr Pepper. Idk, maybe it was just my parents who refused to buy that stuff because it's not healthy.
@@belindathomas7430 ditto. Carbonation kills ur kidneys
@@belindathomas7430 I had some friend’s parents not allow anything caffeinated in their house. I think it depended on their interpretation. 🤷🏼♀️
I know Carter meant "anaesthesia" at 43:00 but I like to imagine he awoke from euthanasia to the shock and awe of all of the Mormon doctors
they should have killed me while they had the chance 😂
Going to bed at night knowing that I get to wake up to a yummy cup of coffee literally boosts my mental health and I think about it every night lol
it really is a powerful drug
addicted
When I was told about the whole coffee thing while I was stuck in the Mormon church, I thought "maybe it's because they want everyone to be tired because tired people are easier to control", especially with the way that at the camps they would make you get up at obscenely early times seminary would be very early in the morning.
👀
haha who knows...
Having water instead of wine is so wild to me, the (Lutheran) churches where I live commonly use non-alcoholic wine or even grape juice (mainly to allow more people to participate!)
Water seems like an absolute last resort
It's actually a sacrilege: if you think about why Jesus used bread and wine.
It goes all the way back to Melchizedek and Abraham.
Wait what's the difference between nonalcoholic wine and grape juice?
@@zhazhagab0r nonalcoholic wine tastes like wine, it's made pretty much like regular wine. grape juice is just juice, tastes sweet and has not been fermented in any way!
Well Jesus turned water into wine, and the Mormons turned wine into water😅
@@zhazhagab0r sugar
My dad has a few Chinese coworkers and they were APPALLED to hear that he doesn’t drink tea. I imagine members of the church that live in Asian cultures that value tea so much feel incredibly isolated.
Imagine how they must feel in Britain! 😅
@@superfreakmusic7681 Tea is much more crucial in many east asian cultures. It's present during every meal, you offer it to guests as part of basic rules of hospitality, and not offering or accepting tea so seen as incredibly rude and even outright hostile. in the uk you might get raised eyebrows but tea isn't nearly as as crucial to socialising and even basic polite etiquette as it is in countries like China or Japan.
‘I’m glad I’m not addicted to coffee!’ Right. You just need a Large Red Bull every single morning just to function… but you aren’t addicted to the ‘evil’ beverage.
I have always loved reading the stories and journal entries from apostles in the late 19th c. (long after the WofW revelations) about drinking wine and eating cakes in the temple -- makes you think the temple might have been a 19th c. version of a guy's night under the guise of religiosity.
Omg why did I read "World of Warcraft" when reading "WofW" the first time lmaoo 💀💀
I don’t understand why Emma had to give up her tea. She was already giving something up in exchange for the tobacco-chewing drunks.
She gave up cleaning up after their thankless, ungrateful asses.
"Mild barley drinks" please tell me y'all know about Postum! Postum is a coffee substitute made of barley, and was all the rage among mormons when I was growing up in the 80s/90s.
Not to mention it was invented by CW Post (Post brand cereal) because he believed caffeine was the cause of the worlds evils. CW Post was mentored by John Kellogg (Kellogg brand cereal) who invented corn flakes because he thought they would keep you from masturbating. These men were both 7th day Adventist.
Also pero made of barley.100% caffeine free...
Yo I just want to say that, as a member of the church, there’s been some stuff that’s troubled me that I haven’t been able to put my finger on. And as I’ve been approaching mission age I’ve been doing a lot of reading and a lot more research than I ever have before. I’ve found that the history and the information that the church puts out seems really watered down so I’m thankful that I’ve found your channel for an alternative point of view as I search for truth.
Have you read the CES letter? Very informative on “the rest of the story”.
Wow! Same thing is happening to me except I'm Muslim, I can't really find channels like Zelph for Islam, so there's been kind of a solace in this channel as I look for truth too.
@@milopt.352 Look up apostate alladin here on yt
@@johnpaulherrera703 Thanks!
Moderation is key, and knowing how you react to those substances is part of knowing how to moderate yourself. My parents used some of our family members' poor behavior when they were very clearly plastered af as a way to get us kids terrified of alcohol and try to make us not want it. But it really ended up creating so many more problems because we didn't have a good example of how to learn to drink responsibly, and because crime was the secret ingredient that made drinking so much more fun for a few of my siblings. I wish we had had better views on alcohol growing up so that some of the things we've gone through maybe wouldn't have happened, but I'm jud tglad that now, we all know better and to be a bit more responsible when we drink.
Idk how I found this channel but I've been binge watching it for days now. Your videos are so interesting! I was raised christian (catholic and then baptist) so my experience was a lot more mild than yours but some things are similar like the isolation tactics. Anyway congrats on your channel! And I just wanna add that it blew my mind that Tanner went to João Pessoa cause foreigners never know my city when I tell them about it
Ahh glad you found us! Joao Pessoa has such a special place in my heart!
-Tanner
Isolation tactics in Catholicism??? How so? 🤔
Watching this while drinking coffee, lol. I'm a never-mo, but raised conservative Christian and home schooled. My parents also did extreme diets. I was told that coffee was as toxic as bleach. So, here I am, the only one out of my family of origin blissfully enjoying coffee. I'm such a rebel.
You were a lovely addition to my morning coffee. Thanks for this.
I just need to share that I love Samantha’s blouse beary much
You two are so educated and eloquent in your explanations. I'm currently transitioning out of Mormonism and really feel a sense of belonging and connection here. Thank you :)
Ahhh that makes us happy! So glad you’re here! 💜💜💜
I'm ExMo, 45 years old, and I didn't know most of this. Thank you both very much. I'm dedicating my third cuppa joe to you two and your cat this morning ☕️
My mom has chronic headaches and pain and her doctor told her to drink coffee 💀💀💀(instead of soda)
I cannot believe how many prageru and christian ads I’ve been getting since I started watching your videos
I just love you both sooo much. I'm your JW cousin here and appreciate all you do for those of us that have successfully exited cult life. You guys were a vital part of my healing and helping me stay/feel sane during some of my darkest moments. Much love to you two, you're both beautiful, smart & funny. ❤️ Thank you!❤️
Ahhh this is so lovely, thank you so much! 😭💚💚💚💚💚💚
7:12 Are you kidding? That is the most beautiful cat. Okay, there's a lot of competition, but WOW.
EDIT: I can't get OVER IT. It looks so smug and beautiful. No wonder egyptians worshiped them.
Brewing my tea while I watch this! (Not a coffee drinker, I’ve never liked the taste!)
Good for you. I love coffee!
I had Vicodin when I had my wisdom teeth out at 15. I thought it was brilliant, until all my pain came back at once. I have chronic illnesses.
You know what I decided worked well enough? Caffeine and Ibuprophin because holy hell I didn’t want a crash like that again.
Bravo!!!!!
I feel it's important to point something out. Overall I agreed. But on the topic of carcinogens. Classes like class 1, 2, and so on refers to the level of evidence supporting the fact that the substance is carcinogenic. Not the degree of harm the substance can impart. It's a small but important distinction I think.
I didn’t know that. Thanks for pointing that out
Nicotine is a known suppressant against auditory hallucinations with people who have schizophrenia. Love that you mentioned that Tanner.
24:56 my parents were ALSO perscribed coffee by a doctor for their chronic fatigue!!! They talked with the ward bishop and thankfully he was merciful about it, (at least I think he was). But it made me feel so so so much guilt about it. We had to keep the coffee machine hidden away in my parent's bedroom and when we had friends over nobody was allowed in there because if people saw it there'd be questions and judgement and shit.
I’d love to hear you two talk more on Mormons construed or weird views on morality. I went to Disneyland with my wife’s family and my sister in law received two bags of chips when she only ordered one. My wife was like “sweet free bag of chips!” And her sister (who is a TBM) stood up and declared “no I have a thing called morals!” And went to return them only to have give her a funny look and say no just keep it 😂 and that legally they can’t take it back.
I’m just thinking, a multi-billion dollar corporation that we paid hundreds of dollars to, gave you an extra bag of chips and you feel immoral for keeping it? 😂
LMAO, I bet SIL was the kid who reminded teachers about homework before breaks.
I would have done the same thing. Not being a thief means never being a thief, even if it's as a result of someone's mistake. I'm not religious in any way, but I HATE thievery.
@@jolenejoleeene what happened was not thievery just a harmless mistake. Thievery implies intent. This is my point about construed morality. Morality isn’t black and white, you should analyze things based off of possible harm of your choice. If she insisted on her way then either the employee who took the bag back would have received a reprimand possibly losing their job for breaking legal policy or they would have thrown the bag away wasting the food. Either one would cause more harm than if she simply kept the bag. She saw herself as having superior morality and felt ashamed that she had to keep the bag even though it was the best outcome, the outcome my wife and I reached from the very beginning that she thought was so immoral of us.
@@alb958 If you were supposed to pay for something and didn't without express permission, it's thievery. That is not a gray area. If they let her keep it, all is good. If the employee gets reprimanded, that's crap but not her fault. If they throw it away, that's also crap and wasteful. But crappy outcomes are not thievery.
@@jolenejoleeene again it was a harmless accident, call it thievery if you want but I disagree. In that situation I’d rather keep the chips and be labeled a thief by people like you to avoid the possibly of more harmful unnecessary outcomes.
I was taking a course in college and I can’t remember the exact source but there was some sort of book or writing during that time period that sounded exactly like the Word of Wisdom. This idea didn’t come out of nowhere
I've always wondered that, and whenever i asked the church leaders they never gave me a good reason.
dying over Tanner referring to anesthesia as euthanasia 🤣 that made my day. casually waking from the dead, jesus vibes nbd
The whole “I don’t need to understand the why, obedience is a virtue” thing drives me up the wall, because wasn’t that Satan’s whole deal? His plan was “let’s put everyone on Earth and tell them to do this, this, and this, and then everyone will get into heaven!” But God and Jesus were like, “no, they need to have agency. Instead, we’re gonna put everyone on earth and tell them that if they don’t do this, this, and this, then they won’t get into heaven, but it’s their choice.”
When I was a secretary in the political science department at BYU I helped a professor proofread a paper called “Why a Mormon Won’t Drink Coffee But Might Have a Coke.” Such a strange, complicated religion 😂
You can be technically chemically dependant on caffeine and even get headaches as withdrawal symptoms. Not as bad as most addictive drugs or anything though and you're right about the health benefits of coffee.
You can also be addicted to sugar and sugary drinks.
You can get over coffee withdrawal in 3 days with some advil tho
@@boysrus61 Sugar is awful for you, and I suppose you could say it's addictive, but you won't have physical withdrawal symptoms from lack of sugar. Therefore, you can't be chemically dependant on it. Having a few soda drinks daily that are high in sugar is definitely worse for your body than a few cups of coffee daily, though. Unless you're putting crazy high amounts of sugar in the cofee. I definitely agree with the video that it's stupid for Mormons to be against drinking coffee, tea, or even small amounts of alcohol, when they aren't against having crazy amounts of sugar in their diets or anything else that's unhealthy.
Orthodox jew here...its wool and linen...and nobody has separate kitchens for meat and dairy except in industrial settings. We just have separate dishes (and sinks if we're able, for convenience, because they cant be mixed.)
I went vegan for ethical reasons a few months after leaving Mormonism. Somehow my TBM parents were angrier about the veganism...
make it make sense!
@@ZelphOntheShelf I’m an Ex-Muslim, now agnostic. I actually find the Mormon Church to be a net positive for society. It doesn’t preach violence like Islam, and its emphasis on the structure of families is amazing. Utah has the highest percentage of children to adult ratio, and they are the least to live in poverty. - One thing will earn the charge +A from me, let members drink coffee and tea!😂
@@hus390 there are plenty of mormon teachings and practices that lend themselves to violence, and mormons have been some of the worst perpetrators of violence in the american west (eg Mountain Meadows massacre, Circleville massacre, etc). Mormon teachings on the family are likewise problematic, since they shame, isolate, and abuse people who don’t fall within their established bounds of normalcy, which is why they see an exceptionally high rate of queer teen suicide and queer depression generally. Considering how the church has to defraud and manipulate members while only donating a comically small percentage to humanitarian efforts (but still has a robust budget for legally protecting predators and fighting gay marriage worldwide) it doesn’t seem like a net positive to me. But understandable how people with different backgrounds can see it differently.
@@hus390 Utah has one of if not the highest concentration of pedophiles in the States. It's not a coincidence.
“Well at least I’m not addicted” as they drink their 4th can of Mountain Dew
Plus they are addicted to feeling superior and condescending.
I'm trying to imagine a Salt Lake City supermarket.
I remember pushing a cart around a store in what I didn't know was a dry town in Texas.
Finally, I asked a clerk where the beer aisle was.
He looked at me and said, "You're not from around here, are you?"
Mormons here in Utah swear off coffee but they keep the soda companies and energy drink companies in business.
Something I found very interesting in the video was about the meat eating. I had no idea about that. Funny thing about living in a Utah small town when someone passes away, most of the time they serve lots of yummy beef. I've never seen one of them pass on the meat.
Great video guys!
Hi, I lived with a 7-day Adventist woman and her family for a good portion of my childhood. The aren’t all vegetarian, not at all. It’s not a rule in their religion. More cultural I think? They also drink coffee. However, none of them eat pork or shellfish. It’s a weird religion. I had to do this youth group thing called “Pathfinders” it’s sort of like religious Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts…but their uniforms looked shockingly like Hitler youth uniforms. I got in realllly big trouble for pointing that out/making fun of it.
Oh they also attend church on Saturday. Something about the 10 commandments saying to keep the 7th day holy- hence the name of their religion.
My parents said the Word of Wisdom says we don't drink coffee because it tans your stomach like a cow hide. Which isn't true.
Haha I’ve heard that about tea from Mormons!
Thats what bothers me-the amount of BS they have to come up with to support these silly rules and convince themselves that it's their own viewpoint when if given the chance they wouldnt follow them. I remember feeling this way about having to be anti gay, and anti abortion and I just got to a point where I said 'but I DONT agree with this stance, **** what the church says, Im following my heart. I didnt abandon my faith but I do make it my own and dont let anyone tell me what to do or believe.
Missionaries told me once we don't drink hot drinks because they could boil our insides.
@@rachelhasgp but hot chocolate doesn't boil us for some reason??
@@ZelphOntheShelf i have no clue. I know people who stay away from hot chocolate and hot apple cider too, it's uncommon, but if I remember right that missionary was "one of those" he also brought up eating soup too hot.
Watched this morning as I made and drank my coffee. Thanks, friends!
Watching this on my second cup of coffee…
34:48 MOT here - it’s specifically kosher meat and kosher dairy, and is built upon a suggestion that you not eat a calf boiled in the milk of its own mother.
MOT ? It's not a suggestion, it's actually a law of kosher eating.
@@davidjanbaz7728 imma guess you’re not Jewish.
Tanner lookin good in that pastel blazer and chain.
Funny you should bring up the 7th Day Adventists and their vegetarianism. There's a 7th Day church down the road and I've been tempted for years to attend once just to make some friends and find out how the heck they afford a healthy diet in this place 😅
Edit- I live in Newfoundland. We're an island in the Atlantic. There are like 5 vegetables that grow here and the rest has to be brought in by boat. My husband is most definitely a carnivore and wants meat for supper, so we usually have meat for supper (try to at least stay away from red meats as often as possible) but I personally rarely eat meat otherwise throughout the day. Plus there are certain meals I make for us that are meaty for him and meatless for me quite easily, like pizza. I leave the pepperoni off my side.
Haha I am from there too. It’s too hard to survive as a vegan or vegetarian there
So you'll be spared from bugBurgers
I found out after leaving the church that I am hyper sensitive to caffeine…it throws me into a panic attack. As an exmo, I’m so bitter about this fact 😂
Oh, that sucks! Like you’re thinking, ‘finally, I can partake’, only to have that happen. What a disappointment. heh
Try a coffee that has removed the toxins that alot of brand name coffees have.
It's probably not the caffeine but some of these toxins that are the Problem.
@@davidjanbaz7728 interesting. Do you know of a brand?
@@abracadanielle9647 check out Dave Aspery: he has a special Coffee on his website!
@@abracadanielle9647 it's Danger Coffee by Dave Aspery + a whole lot more!
@Zelph Good morning y'all !!
I have the apostate coffee mug too. It’s my favorite mug. ❤
How's their coffee? I'm always up for trying new coffee companies.
@@jennifergorges72 it’s pretty good, a bit expensive for my budget so it’s a treat.
@@mommyofkittens4809 I will definitely check it out! Thank you!
Last year I started drinking coffee. A cup of coffee four days a week has allowed me to get off my anxiety meds (under the supervision of my psychiatrist) and I now no longer have issues with two ailments I've struggled with my entire life. So I could have been spared years of suffering if I had just had coffee but I grew up in the church and even after leaving it took years before I realized that I didn't need to keep following the Word of Wisdom.
You will not die from caffeine withdrawal but you CAN die from too much in one day especially if you have a heart condition. But if would have to be a ton like 20 cups or something of strong coffee
Healthline website:
Instead of thinking about coffee in terms of cups - yes, one coffee cup is about 8 ounces - think about your consumption in terms of total caffeine.
One cup typically equals about 70 to 140 milligrams of caffeine.
“Although further studies are needed to identify the best amount, in general, consuming less than or equal to 400 milligrams of caffeine a day, or about four or five cups, is what we’d recommend,” Dr. Zahn says.
Thanks for this, and all of your videos 😊❤
I grew up in a Christian cult and watching you guys always makes me think how stupid the rules were 😂❤
Thanks for making me smile 🙃😍🇬🇧
this is the most informative video thus far. i appreciate.
It's good to discuss the health benefits of coffee, but caffeine definitely IS an addictive substance (not that that's necessarily really a bad thing) as it can cause cravings and withdrawal symptoms like headaches, irritability, and difficulty concentrating. Something doesn't need to have extremely harmful withdrawal symptoms to count as addictive. The caffeine industry now also operates similar to the tobacco industry in the past, targeting young consumers to get them hooked on a product early with bright, tween/teen friendly branded energy drinks that are advertised by people with a young audience like Logan Paul and TikTik influencers. I don't think anything could be as culturally relevant and popular as coffee or cigarettes or alcohol if it wasn't addictive and habit forming
“I woke up from the euthanasia” Tanner that’s how you become the Jesus of a new cult
😂😂😂😂
The idea that Japanese people (or any people) can't drink green tea is just absurd.
When I studied in Japan, I learnt the Japanese tea ceremony. Tea is not only a common drink, it is also a very important cultural heritage. Forbidding tea can destroy social connections revolving around sharing tea among guests. It is not comparable with swapping one drink with another.
I... know?
Pleasantly surprised to hear a comment on Seventh-Day Adventism! As an ex-Adventist (now athiest), I thoroughly enjoy watching your videos and find that there are many similarities between Mormonism and SDAism (especially in the conservative Adventist circles I grew up in).
If anyone else finds this interesting here is a quote from our "prophet" EGW: "Our ancestors have bequeathed to us customs and appetites which are filling the world with disease. The sins of the parents, through perverted appetite, are with fearful power visited upon the children to the third and fourth generations. The bad eating of many generations, the gluttonous and self-indulgent habits of the people, are filling our poorhouses, our prisons, and our insane asylums. Intemperance, in drinking tea and coffee, wine, beer, rum, and brandy, and the use of tobacco, opium, and other narcotics, has resulted in great mental and physical degeneracy, and this degeneracy is constantly increasing" (Counsels on Health p.49.2). Drinking tea and coffee will turn you into a broke, insane criminal! Lol, and to think I totally believed this at one point.
Broke? This may well be true. Have you seen the prices for a fancy latte or cappuccino?😅
My friend from SLC told me that one of his parents prized possessions, is a travelling copper still that was owned by Brigham Young. One of his parents is a direct descendents of Brigham Young. Brigham Young's travelling still. Think about it, what was Brigham Young doing owning a still, he certainly not using it to make himself a mug of Postum!!!!):):)
32:36 The Mayo Clinic defines "moderate drinking" as up to one drink per day for women and up to two drinks per day for men.
Thank you!
I’ve watched a few of your videos and I find them very informative about the LDS cult. I have been a Lutheran my entire life and I think a big difference between a true Christian faith and a cult is that we are (at least in my 64 yrs of experience) are encouraged to research when in doubt. My pastor will say often”don’t just take my word for it, when in doubt, go to God’s word for clarification “ and I feel like cults like the LDS, JW, etc.. expect their members to blindly follow. Thank you for sharing your experiences
If you think “traditional” Christianity doesn’t encourage blind obedience, you’re delusional.
Going to God’s word isn’t research though.
I was vegan for 3 years when I was a teenager and I went to girls camp and it had several branches on a big camp ground… the last day they roasted A WHOLE PIG. I cried. How can someone claim to be so righteous but willingly purchase and have slaughtered a prescious, sweet and loving, intelligent animal. If you preach the “word”, I will hold you to that “word”
:( I would cry too
Maybe I misunderstood what you said. Please correct me. There's a lot of commas that are used so please correct me. To me this says he is pleased when they are used not only in times of famin. That was my understanding. Looking at the commas again. I think it may say they should be used but only in times of famine.
Anyone who is good at commas please help me understand.
12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;
13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.
I thought the metaphore of the watering down of christianity was hilariously spot on if u consider that jesus was the one to do the opposite, he turned the water into wine, right?
Also as somebody who grew up catholic, banning wine from christianity felt so weird since the communion is at the center of every mass. Where im from catholics still eat the bread and usually the priest and some people will drink the wine (opening enough bottles for the whole parish would be a bit expensive lmao so its a bit more limited than it used to be)
I love your thoughts! I would agree that they have the wow to control their members but it’s also a branding tool for them. If you don’t drink coffee there are very few reasons why you wouldn’t. Being Mormon is one of the first conclusions a person will come to. Then leading them to ask questions about being Mormon.
I have relatives who have converted to Mormonism and from them I was led to believe it was caffeine that was banned. I remember when we were kids they were not permitted to drink pop/soda. Mind you this was before the time of caffeine free products. On special occasions they would make homemade root beer and it was a big deal. Are caffeine free substances also banned?
It's the caffeine. They can have all the Dr Pepper & snickerdoodles they want
Seventh Day Adventists make a mean cottage cheese & walnut meatloaf
Go to norway and scandinavian countries, you can definitely see people drink five cups of coffee a day because they are drinking it during the mourning and night
I'm on my way !!!
Wait, does is it only considered a chemical addiction if you can die from withdrawal? I thought any physical withdrawal symptoms (such as a headache) made it a chemical addiction
Your body can get used to coffee and even crave it (often to the point of headaches or anxiety if you go without), which is definitely a chemical process. I just want to be careful when conflating regular usage to something like coffee with a hardcore chemical dependency. The government defines addiction as: "a chronic, relapsing disorder characterized by compulsive drug seeking and use despite adverse consequences." I've never heard of anyone losing their life, health, job, or relationships over caffeine.
@@ZelphOntheShelf thanks for clarifying!
@@ZelphOntheShelf You decry church orders but listen to your government? Seriously - I hear a lot of wokeness in this channel. It's ironic to understand oppressive religions but not tyrannical guvs.
Coffee IS classified as a drug and is addictive. As is sugar for many people.
No... that information is incorrect and highly dramatic. Caffeine is an addictive drugs. Cravings withdrawal = addictive.
Sam is correct. Back in history distilling and brewing was the only way to drink anything because there was no water treatment. Even kids. So yeah, everyone was mildly buzzed all day! Perhaps tea was safe if they boiled water long enough.
The mayflower passengers were sussed for the whole voyage.
In the Mormonism LIVE episode yesterday, they mentioned that Adam Clarke, JS's favorite person to plagiarize, spoke out against tobacco.
lol of course
So, Adam Clark is a Christian theologian !
He actually understands the Bible : unlike J.S.
The story about Ale/beer in england was true. It was brewed 3 times on the same wort. The first brew was the strongest used for getting drunk the second a bit weaker was your day drink and the third was the childrens beer. This is very very very true as the waterways were all contaminated with all the processes that went on by rivers. Ale was brewed by women and does not have hops, beer was usually brewed by men and did not come into fashion until way later, but hops preserves it so lasts longer than ale.
I'm literally a barista so I'm incredibly curious lol
So what I'm hearing is that Joseph Smith does not pass the Kevin test
You guys were talking about Joseph not being ahead of his time in terms of prohibiting alcohol and tobacco and I was just thinking like… those two things are prohibited in Islam too… …which dates back to the year ~600 AD😅
l i t e r a l l y
I had planned a baptism date and I think I got lucky that this issue completely popped my bubble on the mirage of Mormonism. I had come to appreciate the wholesome culture, understood the usefulness of most commandments, and figured as long as the stories taught good lessons it didn't matter if they were factually true. Yes, I was getting good at overlooking all the cracks due to "feeling the Spirit."
But even after getting 80-90% of the way there, suddenly my missionaries were overly concerned that I might still be drinking one cup of DECAF coffee on occasion. That's when I realized I was signing up for the Spiritual Gestapo, not the Eternal Family of Love & Light. No argument I could use was valid, because they are taught to be blindly obedient, not use discernment and self-consciousness.
I even talked with the Bishop about it, and he said that the WoW includes a statement about evil men conspiring in the latter-days to use coffee against the common people. In order words, "Starbucks is evil, but Pepsi loves you! Decaf bad, Red Bull good!"
As a caveat, I heard that the American Revolution began in coffeehouses. So it makes sense that a high-demand religion wouldn't want a substance that makes its members think for themselves and discuss new ideas. Those only "come from God" (with Man as mouthpiece)!
I've come to learn that all institutions like this exploit the common member. Those who figure out the scam either scheme for power in the organization, or leave. It's channels like this that make it easier to save the common person from psychic and spiritual enslavement.
Thank you for elucidating these issues in such detail!
Why worry about not being able to attend a family members wedding for worthiness issues, it must not be that important for family to be there since they exclude children anyway.
Children are excluded from weddings regularly because it's often a formal event that's not very entertaining to children. Not sure how that's related to excluding adults from weddings for nonsensical rules.
I think maybe people want to be there and are offended when told they can’t and/or sad they aren’t allowed
@@amberinthemist7912 I find a lot of age related rules as nonsensical even though they have some decent base, I'd trust a lot 12 year olds before a lot 20 year olds in driving. Age does tend to play a role in maturity but only in the fact that as one gets older one gets more experience to base decisions off of. And as for the relation the reason children aren't allowed is because of the same limitation of having to be both endowed and worthy and I should clarify that limitation included 18 year old boys since you have to have your mission call to be endowed which you used to have to be to get your endowment. So it basically I guess it seems you have to follow their rules to even be considered an adult
Can we please be friends 😂❤?! You guys are the people I needed growing up in Utah as a non believer. This organization has affected my life just as much even though I was never a member.
Its wierd cause when youre in something like thins, being subdued and controlled, you know you dont feel good but you think that thats how its mean to be so you dont even question it or even try to feel better. We were supposed to feel bad about ourselves all the time for being worthless sinners while desperately trying to maintain 'a good witness' -so that even silly little things were frowned upon -like wearing ankle bracelets simply because somebody somewhere said that prostitutes wore them so we should 'avoid even the appearance of evil.'
Drinking coffee will destroy your salvation but wanting to become a god is good to go.
I am an active member but I e always questioned this myself- you can’t go to the temple etc if you drink coffee- which is a bean ground up- but you can go to the temple if you are consuming meat three times a day which involves the killing of animals and leads to factory farming etc. it makes no sense
Also concerning hot chocolate:
*It may be a topic to muse in a podcast. You may need to dig and research this more.
In the 90s a petition was made to ban hot chocolate and put hot chocolate with coffee with the word of wisdom. It was proposed that there can be no gray area and as hot chocolate was a hot drink and it was highly favored to be drink often and it had a brown color (referring to the black/brown mania-paranoia or 'dark' chocolate...belief literalists wanted to create a black/white standing against the warm beverage.
The literalists of the church bandwagoned and tried to push for the membership to prefer and to drink white chocolate instead. Many members complained it didn't taste the same, it looked like frothy melted butter in water, and others complained about the higher calories.
Other members complained that this petition was a waste of conscience and an idiot matter of epic proportions concerning matters of Zion and the Kingdom of heaven.
The literalists pushed on the principled members and the principled members gained a larger sense of cause to turn the membership to ban hot chocolate as it was a beverage against the principle of hot drink, it had the color dark brown, and it was known to have trivial amounts of caffeine.
Also Members that were discouraged from drinking coffee went to hot chocolate as there go to drink. The principled members got irritated that this drink could be 'abused' in large quantities and pushed for the reform even more. The literalists were upset toward the excoffee drinkers as they were not penitent enough by behavior and they (the ex coffee drinkers) were not under their (the literalists) subjegation and direct influence to receive social glory and 'spiritual' substance (more like influence toward the inflected politics)
Supposedly most of the votes of the east US were turned to believe banning hot chocolate was more a matter of sacrifice and principle, however west US/UT overturned the petition as it was considered more of a confectionary and chocolate was a main staple dessert in UT.
During the time of the petition and social turmoil over hot chocolate, hot chocolate was put on a soft ban at it caused so much discontent and reluctance to have actually have had a soft fear toward the drink, while some others believed that Satan was taking over the drink and drinking it during the time of debate would've weakened the constitution of a members soul. Some members having gone through that societal ordeal still might believe hot chocolate is a soft sin/corruption and will still push against it or believe they have greater principle to not partake of hot chocolate.
Some members at that time speculated that if the matter was before the 70s priesthood of blacks to the priesthood, the drink may have had more ground to be banned because of the paranoia surrounding brown/dark chocolate.
Besides hot chocolate to research for your musing... There were other petitions in the 90s to cause major cultural shifts in the church started by the literalists in the church...
This included:
-Banning Christmas - canceling gifts, Santa Claus, the word Christmas and all references not associated with Christ. LDS Literalists hated using the word Christmas as a borrow from Catholiscm as 'The mass of Christ', they hated the commercialization and gift expectation of Christmas, and they saw the multiple traditions owed from several cultures that contributed to make the tradition of Christmas possible as defiling the meaning of Christ and/or a 'tradition of Man' befouling the day.
-Banning of the use of computers. Just as computers were becoming more domestically used and available for domestic purchase, the computer was called the 'Devils box'. It was believed by those members pushing the petition / and belief that interaction and manipulation on a screen was a 'window of hell' and the coding of the computer to use 'code' was a manifestation of witchcraft and Satan was interacting with the user. Furthermore, the black floppy discs triggered those members to fear black again and only presumed cards of evil were needed to be put in the computer in order to make the witchcraft come alive. The church used microfiche more for genealogy. As the computer was introduced to replace microfiche those members further escalated their hysteria and perception of belief.
-Banning video games one movement started at the end of the 80s, believing that video games were witchcrafts. Another in the 90s using mortal Kombat as the main fuel to ban all games. Another movement in 00s with some odd campaign trying to push that God doesn't tolerate/allow a simulation of life + life should not be simulated. The Literalists had a number of crazy movements with various trigger antics.
Another movement stemmed from 'putting aside childish things...' and caused a stigma to grow that all priesthood holders engaging in games were insulant or pushing against their character of manhood to lose dating points.
Other nutty influences introduced by a reaction of leadership assuming they were saving members or as they called it at that time 'Building fortifications as the Nephites against the buffetings of Satan'
-Banning Black Sabbath - Fear against the color black again and introducing a trigger of the 'sabbath being desecrated'
(I listened to it anyways, awesome track)
-Ban against 80s rock and roll. A huge push on music should be pleasant, praiseworthy. Beats, screaming, and loud music was being pushed as barbaric music or music to disquiet and Rob the soul.
(Still listened to it, was miles better than Come thou fountain or any church music. Mormon Rap came close, but it was still a little corny, like Blues Brothers corny.)
-Ban against motorcycle culture, there was indifference made known publicly for men with long hair, not clean shaven, tattoos, and dark skin being tanned (total garbage my opinion, some of the best members came from that culture.)
-Ban against 'Witches', various children's books with magic in them.
-Ban against watching any performance with illusionists. Illusionists were taught as making a mockery of Priesthood and/or perverting Gods power like Moses staff/snake.
-The fear of masks and the prohibition of masks to ward functions (Came about from fear/unrest in membership as the movies Freddie Kruger, nightmare on elm street, and Jason came out)
-The fear of Teddy Ruxbin and talking to dolls: Seen as witchcraft, a desecration of mimicking life, and also Chucky came out in movies.
-The fear of battery operated toys: Seen as witchcraft by the Literalists and the suppose of mockery against God to put/imbue an artificial 'spirit' in a doll using unrefined unnatural energy (electricity).
-The fear of dice: A ban came out banning D+D rollplay. It was seen as sorcery, witchcraft and the books were disliked by the literalists.
-The fear of puzzle boxes...yep hellraiser came out lol. It was amusing how petrified many members were to believe that hell was more accessible now ... Through puzzle boxes.
- The fear of hell being closer than ever to the Earth/veil + The fear of space (being dark + conspiracies being made about the blackness of space)... The Movies Disney's black hole and later again with the movie Dark horizon with hell being another dimension and is just close to home in space.
- Disney's Fantasia was put on ban from the pulpit growing up. (Didn't see Mickey' sorcerer's apprentice until my mid 20s) It was supposed and put forth that Satan was trying to get into the hearts of the members making sorcery, magic, necromancy available. I still remember members screaming to have mickey's sorcerer's apprentice to be shut off or changed as if evil was to leak from the tv set. Literalists were peeved that magic was replacing the respect and place priesthood had.
A juxtaposition of two very real scenarios in Mormonism:
(1) A Mormon who pays his tithing, attends church regularly and is generally well-behaved can have a habit of consuming massive amounts of junk food on a daily basis, including candy bars, pizza, cheeseburgers, milkshakes, sugary soda pop drinks (uncaffeinated), ice cream and family-size bags of potato chips, while also overdosing himself on over-the-counter pain relief medications (to help counter the pain symptoms resulting from massive inflammation caused by his bad dietary practices and lack of proper nutrition), while refusing to engage in any kind of physical exercise...and, nonetheless, CAN unquestionably be found WORTHY to enter the Mormon temple simply because he ticks off all the right boxes, including the one requiring abstinence from coffee, tea, alcohol and tobacco (the "health" commandment).
(2) A Mormon who pays his tithing, attends church regularly and is generally well behaved and has a very healthy lifestyle, regularly consuming only fresh organically grown vegetables (broccoli, kale, cabbage, carrots, etc.), together with moderate servings of eggs, fish and occasional red meat, and also exercises regularly (walking, bicycling, yoga, etc.)...can nonetheless be determined to be UNWORTHY to enter the Mormon temple SOLELY based on the fact that he feels strongly about drinking a weak green tea every day as part of his health regimen and refuses to lie about it when being interviewed by the Bishop.
I've asked Mormons I know specifically what they feel about this juxtaposition. Most of them have confirmed to me that even now, in the third decade of the 21st century, consuming a weak cup of green tea on occasion can be regarded as a violation of their "Word of Wisdom" requirements and therefore can be a basis for denial of a temple recommend. As for the junk food consuming health disaster area referred to in the first scenario, they have confirmed that such person can indeed receive a temple recommend. Asked for comment on whether this makes any logical sense, they just shrug and mumble something about how it's really about faith and obedience more than anything else. Well...I guess that's basically the only thing they can say about it. Otherwise, the cognitive dissonance would drive them crazy.
Unless they really investigate the health benefits of tea and coffee they aren't going to even think to question the W of W.
They can't go against it until they actually leave the church as their celestial kingdom spot will be taken by someone else.
I know a lot of temple going Mormons who are addicted to their diet cokes and energy drinks. Pretty sure my one mug of black coffee in the morning is waaaay healthier, but whatever. Make it make sense! 😄
Never mind me, over here obsessed with Porter’s Fire Whiskey
I like coffee but I have noticed that drinking it too much does make me tense and messes up my sleep patterns, but does that mean drinking it should condemn me to Hell, or keep me from my family or does it even make me a bad person? If coffee drinking does not make one bad then why should it keep them out of Heaven?
i've always thought that a true adherence to the WOW included veganism
I went vegan a few months after leaving Mormonism. Somehow my parents were even angrier about the veganism
@@christinavanbeek that's crazy
My Mormon parents have embraced a vegan lifestyle for a few years now as part of their increasingly restrictive lifestyle. I think the older they get, the more rules they give themselves
I’m curious as to why keeping the word of wisdom is a requirement for temple worthiness if it’s not even a commandment
simple answer: control
@@ZelphOntheShelf Why not just slip away? Why bash it?
I was recommended Caro.which tasted like coffee.but was expensive tea lot cheaper in uk.i like very milky drinks
.
Hell is trying to find good coffee in England. Finally found it at the Turkish pastry shop. All love.
If a mormon were to say, I'll stop drinking coffee when you stop eating meat when it's not winter, what would they say? Did you have to do what your family and church said, and what happened if you didn't?
Spot-on for the social / cultural connection at that comparatively recent historical moment that aligned with the Seventh-Day Adventists--_exactly right!_ Both "prophetically" created a revised "Christianity" that is ahistorical and instead just happened to be a product of its place and moment in time. It's both humorous and sad how concepts missing from both the Bible and the practices of the most ancient Church that the Bible came from, laid down in the East nearly two millennia ago, could so easily become well-known features / practices in both _American_ religions claiming to be Christian. Much of what has claimed to be Christianity for about 1,650 years is like that, even in Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox teachings which actually originate later. It's fascinating to read the actual writings of Christians that far back, from the time of the Apostles prior to Constantine and the hybridization of church and state. The Christians then definitely weren't very American, nor were they driven by the social and political causes of their day (though we would identify with certain of their values as if that was the case, like their opposition to racism despite it being rampant in the Roman Empire).
I know "lots" of mormons that drink coffee! (And they have their temple recommends, lol) Not saying what to do (or not). Does coffee really taste that good? (more than hot chocolate)?
Danish beer in Utah? In the mid 1800s? What you mean imported over the Atlantic, inland through the prairie, through the desert etc.? Yeah, obviously things are different now with modern machinery, but in those days it wouldn't even last the journey and it definitely wouldn't be economical enough to make a profit.
Where can I donate?
Links in the description box :) 💜💜💜
☝🏻Coffee and tea were commodities that took up very little space and was encouraged to use as a bargaining tool to barter with...we do drink hot cocoa/chocolate as well as herbal teas so the "hot beverage" theory doesn't make sense🤷🏻♀️
Never mo. 11:01 “a glass of wine like Jesus had every day of his life”. Never, never heard that before. I’ve had the impression that they travelled around preaching and lived from the goodness of followers for accommodation but wouldn’t wine have been only for the wealthy? 🤔