Thank you for bringing up the point at the end about how evidence matters less than we think it does when it comes to deconversion. People who have never gone through it don't understand how difficult it is to completely dismantle your entire worldview, and even in the ex-Mormon world, people seem to forget how hard it was. It's so important to have empathy there.
@@henochparks.. as one of 13 in a toxic Mormon family of five generations, I'm going to choose the left and be an asshole. That's literally the only way to send a strong enough message to all 250 of my Mormon relatives in order to have a small bit of peace now that I'm old. On occasion, they still try to shame me, as if that's going to work.
That podcast episode, "How to build a trans-oceanic vessel" was the thing that finally broke my belief in the church. I had read so many things that should have broken it, but I was so stubborn and was fighting an all-out war with myself. Going through all of the pain that ex-religious folks all know so well, including praying non-stop for any sort of answer, direction, comfort, anything. But then I listened to that podcast. I'm a voracious reader but this was (and remains) the most impossible-to-put-down experience I've ever had with any piece of media. At the end my mind finally had the stillness and quiet that I hadn't had in months, maybe years. I was finally able to give up the fight. The church and its scripture is not true, and there's absolutely no way that it ever could be. Even now, 6ish years later, I can look back on that experience and feel that same peace again, and think well of myself for having had the courage to question what to be the core of who I thought I was.
Sounds like you had your moment of peace and comfort after all, just not in the way they might have wished you would. :) Also, what's the trans-oceanic vessel podcast? I'm extremely curious now.
Trans-oceanic vessels are built by prayer and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. There are no tools on earth are as powerful, or as efficient as the Lord's own hand in His work. I ask that you all read the Book of Mormon and pray to find truth. That is how we #HearHim
@@russelm.nelson721 Hey Russ! Long time detractor of yours here. Hate your work and everything you and your so-called church stand for. People have always said that the leaders of the LDS church, oh excuse me, the Mormon church are tone deaf and out-of-touch. Your comment encapsulates that fact perfectly. Chef's kiss.
And at the end of the day the answer to all these questions about Mormonism is quite simple... The church is a fraud and when the church is defending a fraud they have to lie about things.
Tanner, I know your hair is true. And btw, at the same time Joseph Fielding Smith was denying the seer stone, he had it (along with a bunch of important and controversial documents) stored in his small green filling cabinet that he kept locked and in the First Presidency vault in the Administration building. The little filling cabinet had wheels and Smith would roll it into his office from time to time when he needed to look though the materials. I was told this by a now deceased secretary who worked there and saw it. She reverently laughed about his "little green cabinet" when talking about it.
One shelf item for me was how inconsistent the "church" in the book of mormon is from the modern LDS church. Were those Nephites wearing garments? Were they being assigned callings? The BoM denounces polygamy and then JS changed his mind? If god is the same yesterday, today, and forever then.... I'm really confused.
@@pleasepleasethebees humm you do know copper swords, knives, head plates, spear points Etc. Etc have been found Yea? You do know copper mines with tons of copper missing have been found yea? No one knew this in 1829. You do know swords made of wood with obsidian edges have been found yea? All where Joseph Smith said they were. You might try studying up on the mound cultures of the the central and east parts of the US. They match Book of Mormon history. The Book of Mormon denounces Polygamy. Mormons did not practice Polygamy. They practiced Plural Marriage, as did Abraham and Moses. Do you know the difference? Clearly you don't. Again study up.
@@henochparks except that the BoM says they were STEEL swords, lol. Polygamy as practiced by the mormon church was a patriarchal, abusive, and predatory practice which drew young girls into marriage/ownership of old perverted men. Study up bro... you're not too clear on your own religion or church history facts. Joseph Smith was doing the nasty with underaged girls, sister pairs, mother daughter pairs. Guy was a freak. He used older women to help gain access to younger women. Don't like the way that sounds? Study up and then decide if the treasure digger is worthy of your loyalty and devotion. Guy was a confirmed con man documented in court cases before religion was even a twinkle in his eye.
@@henochparksCome on man. Do you want to be tricked so badly you're willing to trick yourself? I used to be the same. There is no evidence that the society that the book of mormon tells a story about ever existed in reality. Full stop. If there was an actual record of American peoples don't you think scholars would be overjoyed to read and learn from it? Believing the BoM is literally true is the same as believing Harry Potter is literally true and that there's a secret society of witches and wizards and a school called hogwarts and a Ministry of Magic. The way the church now explains how the BoM and other scriptures from JS came to be, you have to basically believe in "channeling", not translation. You also have to believe in a seer stone - the same stone that JS used to con people into paying him to dig for treasure - which he never found and that's why he was taken to court prior to starting the church. JS had some occult beliefs and practices. There's a book called "In Sacred Loneliness" which you can read about all of JS's relationships. That book is referenced on the church's website. In fact, go to the church's website, search "Gospel Topics Essays" and read everything there. "In Sacred Loneliness" was used as a reference for one of those essays and it was linked. These are just the problems with JS and the founding of the church, but there's even more once you realize that you're in the Brighamite branch of Mormonism. How did Brigham Young end up as church leader after Joseph died? More shady stuff happened and the church was split and there are other branches of Mormonism. There's just too much evidence that the church has suppressed and not informed it's members about and, actually, actively told us not to look into. That's a cult move. Jim Jones did the same. Scientology does the same. Etc etc. Information control. They want to control the narrative. They told us Joseph and Emma had a beautiful relationship. They even made movies about it. Not so. Joseph accused Emma of poisoning his coffee. True story. He treated her like shit and was stepping out on her before he thought to bring back the idea of polygamy (with a girl named Fanny Alger, look it up) Also, Jesus said all the stuff from the Old Testament was done away and he ushered in a new, higher law. So why is Joseph "restoring" polygamy? Once you start looking, there are logical fallacies all throughout the church and different prophets contradict each other on different things all the time. The temple really strains the concept of of being saved through Jesus. Why do we have to pay money and commit everything to the church to be saved in the next life? That's not how Jesus himself said it worked. At the end of the day, belief in the church is mostly based on feelings and emotions and for a lot of us, old family traditions. If that's what keeps you there, great. But be informed about the pros AND the cons. People leave for legitimate reasons and anyone who says differently has their head stuck up their butt.
My exhusband is that way- doesn’t matter how much evidence, he won’t question anything. He’s read the CES letter and such to ‘prove he’s not brainwashed’ but just says the church is true and won’t give any other explanation. He was raised homeschooled on a goat farm with his only socializing being with other extreme conservative Mormon homeschoolers or church groups though so he’s a lot more programmed into it than I was even.
Love Taylor’s new hair, he’s seriously “tearing at my heart” lol. 90s are back in. It just needs to be bleach blonde or with highlights at least for the boy band look. Great new content.
Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that the technology in the BoM never advances? There’s no new inventions of anything. It’s a stagnant civilization for 1,000 years.
I am a weird occult polytheist and I think it's so interesting that the validity and truth of the scripture is so important to people. In the occult we believe stuff that we know is a myth, on purpose, because it still works.
Thanks for another great episode! One interesting theory I've heard for the "lost paradise" stories is that they're referencing the transition from hunter-gatherer to agricultural societies. Hunter-gatherer societies spend an average of about 4 hours a day on actual food collection, rather than the sunrise to sunset schedule of farming. This leaves a lot more time for quality time, creative pursuits, etc. The change to agriculture brings a more plentiful and reliable source of food, but there's a lot of drawbacks as well, and I can believe that humans have historically looked back at pre-agricultural life with a sense of nostalgia.
I seriously love your videos. I have long thought, and still do (fwiw) that you 2 are among the best content creators in the "Ex" communities (Ex-LDS, Ex-JW, Ex-Scientology....Ex-Christian.... and so on.)
@@ZelphOntheShelf l hope you continue with your efforts to deconvert poor brainwashed Mormons. By the way, I am neither a Christian nor an atheist. I am a polytheist (of the Hellenic variety), which is an option people don't seem to even realize exists.
Your mimi-rant starting at 53:23 everyone should listen to! Understanding the emotional connection to the "tribe" is so important. Everything preceding was fantastic too. Listeners can also check out Brother Jakes Defends the Book of Mormon; using incredible satire to look at the anachronisms. You guys do a great job at dissecting the destructive nature of following the curriculum of high demand religions. Congrats on amazing content!
I actually get a "buzz" when I read Finnegans' Wake, which I've always assumed is similar to what religious people get when reading various scriptures. Words are a form of music and can affect people in similar ways.
I like to come back and listen to what Sam said at 53:25 because when I first did, it was a paradigm shift for me and started me on a journey of understanding the brain and psychology behind group think, confirmation bias, etc. that was life changing for me because before I “couldn’t deny what I had felt and experienced” I almost laugh now thinking of that because it’s so obvious I was feeling and experiencing what millions of others do when their thoughts and feelings have been manipulated with their particular narrative. Sam is completely right that evidence and facts really don’t matter to most people if you can’t explain their own subjective experience. Their feelings don’t care about the facts haha and that was totally me. Grateful for this channel. Really helpful and important.
Aww I loved watching this. It's like coming home. I binged all of your content when I was going through my ascension out of the church a few years ago. Really thankful to have had both of you throughout the years to reinforce my own truth and authenticity ❤️ You've really challenged my thinking and helped me break through in so many ways
I totally agree, although I left over 10 years ago I didn't deconstruct until being fully educated by Sam & Tanner along with many other great Podcasters on the subject. S + T are favorites with their willingness to share their wisdom and knowledge with a perfect quantity of comedy 😊
The Naked Mormonism podcast did a really intense breakdown of the BoM, and there were other episodes that discussed the influences other books around at the time most likely had on J Smithy. Very eye opening imo
Sad, on what near total control control can do. I gave up on organized religion for that reason. My association with god is personal, just god and myself.
Meso Americans did have wheels, but they didn't use them for carts and things (lack of horses, or other work animals, except the llama, but they were in a mountainous region where carts aren't very useful). There are extant wheeled toys from the pre-Columbian period.
On the topic of books written in a short time the main text for the religion Thelema called the book of the law was written in 3 days when the author was high on a bunch of drugs.I’m not apart of that religion but I have read the first chapter and it is really great. I think why I like it is it is poetic not that books like the Bible can’t be poetic in certain places but this one is a prose poem. It is also a occult religion so that definitely is another reason why I like the book so much.
I'm sorry it took me three days to watch this, you guys 😬😕 Tanner, I still owe you big time for that first time you recommended the "How to Build a Trans-Oceanic Vessel" podcast episode; I absolutely second, third, and fourth your encouragement to others to go find it and listen to it. It was SO worth the time. Fabulous!
I think I remember hearing that all latter day Mormon prophets claim to be direct descendants of Jesus. Does anyone else remember hearing that? And if they do how does “the church” try to prove that?
The church provided "the illusion of security." 💯 For all of eternity,, no less! But, it was all an illusion, just like when Toto revealed that the great and powerful Wizard of Oz was nothing but a mere man behind a curtain.
The Gilgamesh poems came from the mesopotamia culture and some stories are present in the Bible as well but are differently written. One story in Gilgamesh describes a god who was awakened by the rowdy humans and in his angered state he brought a flood to exterminate them. The other gods in this myth then tried to calm said god down and end the flooding of the world. I don't remeber the exact details but somehow the god manage to calm down and showed regret for their action afterwards. There are several stories about flooding from different areas of the world and from a historical point of view there have been local events of storms or tsunamis. So it's partly factual that flooding has happened but not in such a global way as described in the Gilgamesh poem or in the Bible. It's more likely that some stories are meant as metaphors for different themes and ways to cope with things out of human control. Some religious stories are from years of oral traditions before someone at some point wrote them down so it makes sense that a story about a regional flood change into something larger than life. Each storyteller might add a thing or two to spice it up and make the story interesting and engaging.
Wow, if the so-called Prophets and Apostles of Mormonism are no longer able to provide revelation, why are they holding the office and being PAID?! (They could be equally as ineffective if they successfully ran for political office.)
The Lost Paradise might arise from people who have lived in a place where things were wonderful but then invaders came or there was internal strife that tore it all apart. In other words, a literary form of "the good ol' days".
you're right, Sam, Joseph said some revelations are from God and some are from man and some are from the Devil....so yeah that's what he said to the people who went to get money for the copyright of it BOM.
One thing to bring up to about the book of Mormon story. It claims that people traveling to the new world that the boats were driven by furious winds for 344 days, just consider that if the "furious winds" only drove the boats at 10 mph for 344 days they would have traveled almost 82,000 mi. They could have circumnavigated the globe several times.
Before writing the book of Mormon, Joseph Smith took the King James bible and rewrote his own version of it. It's called the, 'Inspired version'.. He did this awhile before concocting the BOM.. Later when writing the BOM he incorporated large sections of his own version of the bible in the BOM word for word. Let's put on our thinking caps for a moment. If some so called angel of god revealed the location of the golden or bronze plates to Smith, gave him special seer stones to look through so he could translate it, why would it turn out to include large sections of his own bible word for word? He also republished the BOM several times during his lifetime before being shot to death by fellow Mormons. Those republished editions had some pretty major theological changes in them, not spelling and grammar. In any case if his god in fact had him translate the original version why would there be need for later corrections, or modifications? Did Smith's god change his mind? It appears to me that Joseph Smith created his god in his own image, fickle, impulsive. In a similar fashion Muhammad created a god in his own image as well and Islam bought into it.. These cult leaders share a lot in common.. Mormons are great at fooling themselves. None of the investigations into the historical validity of the BOM have uncovered any evidence (contrary to the bible which does). The Mormons have developed an answer to satisfy their desire to believe it by saying that their god removed all evidence of the events that the BOM points to in order to test their faith..
Also, I do not believe the LDS church claim that Smith died a Martyr. I also believe Smith was killed by fellow Mormons. Knowing Smith's appetite for women, more likely he died at the hands of a jealous husband. Even a monkey knows not to monkey with another monkey's monkey.
Jesus said in Matthew 6:24: "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one and love the other; or else he will hold to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon." (KJV) "Mammon" refers to money or material things in general. "Greed" is NOT good!
Pseudepigrapha means that it is a writing falsely titled and usually also pseudonymous (attributed to another name/author). 1st Enoch is considered Pseudepigrapha, but it has more of a place in the biblical canon than the Book of Mormon does, because it is cited VERBATIM as authoritative and reliable in the Epistle/Letter of Jude. Apologists try to counter that even the pagans were quoted in the "New Testament", but the quote from 1st Enoch contains the Tetragrammaton, the Personal Name of the Creator. In the Torah it is forbidden to employ that Name in a worthless way, which would have been what "Jude" was doing if it were not an authoritative work in his community. (And never mind that there are more copies of 1st Enoch in the Dead Sea Scrolls than some books of the Law of Moses...but that could be because it was considered trash or had more errors. Nevertheless, it demonstrates how popular the book was to SOME PEOPLE in or near Judaea.) "Fan-Fiction"! That's brilliant! The lady has an extremely good grasp of some of the abstract controversies in Mormonism. She succinctly articulates problems that most of the time only bang around inside my head trying to find a way out through my tongue.
Do you ever get a chance get a book of Mormon that was written in 1842 and get a book of Mormon from 1942 and the one in 2022 you'll notice a lot has been rewritten and changed in all these books down the line there is even things that are left out from the 1842 in the 1942 ones can you explain that why that is happening.
I literally felt "the spirit" THE STRONGEST when I read Joseph In The Gap by Taylor Drake. It's a book that professes JS was a fallen prophet lol I didn't believe in the church at that time but I straight up felt like I had felt the spirit. The BOM has never produced a great feeling in me. It's very bland and uninteresting. Mormons quote the BOM the same way a movie trailer shows all the interesting parts of the movie. There's like seven good quotes in the BOM and that's it, which is why everyone quotes them. So dull
@@ZelphOntheShelf that podcast made it very clear that that boat could have never been build there. It's fascinating how members of the lds church believe this as a never-mo
Deuteronomy 13 and 18 tell a person enough to recognize a false prophet (according to the same body of literature in which prophets, according to the biblical definition, were introduced). 13:3 "you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is TESTING YOU to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul."
For me personalty it is the fact that the church will claim that it is a book of god because at lest every verses mentions Jeusus, do you know what is said more often? "and it came to pass."
Don't forget that the church would tout how Joseph Smith wrote about 8 pages of the book of mormon per day when today it takes a day just to translate one page to a different story, but... yeah, of course it takes longer to translate something than to write it originally
Have you prayed about 1st Enoch? The Epistle of Barnabas? The Shepherd of Hermas? The Book of Jubilees? The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles to the Nations? The Community Rule? The Dasmascus Document? Remember! Read them and pray about them!
I always got very good feeling when I read Mad Magazine, when they stopped publishing Mad magazine, then I realized that it must have been Satan that caused publication to cease
I'm confused.... The book of Mormon says that David and Solomon's practice of having many wives and concubines was an abomination.... And when I check the doctrine and covenants it says that David and Solomon's many wives and concubine's were justified. I think God got confused or maybe Joseph Smith just made it all up
It’s a great book. I wrote it
You must have been smoking some good shit while writing it.
:D Did you create that account just to make this comment? If so, I applaud you.
I believe you. Can I have my second anointing now? Lmao
@@easton6213 You may have it only if you a white man.
Can I have my wife back now Joseph, it's been 2 months
It is truly a book.
One of the books to be published of all time, even
Once I was given a copy, I found it to be much shorter than I anticipated. Completely serious.
Written in the 19 th century……🥴
It's true it is a story
It's filled with words, printed in black and white!
Thank you for bringing up the point at the end about how evidence matters less than we think it does when it comes to deconversion. People who have never gone through it don't understand how difficult it is to completely dismantle your entire worldview, and even in the ex-Mormon world, people seem to forget how hard it was. It's so important to have empathy there.
Boo hoo
@@henochparks.. as one of 13 in a toxic Mormon family of five generations, I'm going to choose the left and be an asshole. That's literally the only way to send a strong enough message to all 250 of my Mormon relatives in order to have a small bit of peace now that I'm old. On occasion, they still try to shame me, as if that's going to work.
That podcast episode, "How to build a trans-oceanic vessel" was the thing that finally broke my belief in the church. I had read so many things that should have broken it, but I was so stubborn and was fighting an all-out war with myself. Going through all of the pain that ex-religious folks all know so well, including praying non-stop for any sort of answer, direction, comfort, anything.
But then I listened to that podcast. I'm a voracious reader but this was (and remains) the most impossible-to-put-down experience I've ever had with any piece of media. At the end my mind finally had the stillness and quiet that I hadn't had in months, maybe years. I was finally able to give up the fight. The church and its scripture is not true, and there's absolutely no way that it ever could be. Even now, 6ish years later, I can look back on that experience and feel that same peace again, and think well of myself for having had the courage to question what to be the core of who I thought I was.
Sounds like you had your moment of peace and comfort after all, just not in the way they might have wished you would. :)
Also, what's the trans-oceanic vessel podcast? I'm extremely curious now.
Gorgeous
Trans-oceanic vessels are built by prayer and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
There are no tools on earth are as powerful, or as efficient as the Lord's own hand in His work.
I ask that you all read the Book of Mormon and pray to find truth. That is how we #HearHim
@@russelm.nelson721 Hey Russ! Long time detractor of yours here. Hate your work and everything you and your so-called church stand for.
People have always said that the leaders of the LDS church, oh excuse me, the Mormon church are tone deaf and out-of-touch. Your comment encapsulates that fact perfectly. Chef's kiss.
And at the end of the day the answer to all these questions about Mormonism is quite simple... The church is a fraud and when the church is defending a fraud they have to lie about things.
Tanner, I know your hair is true. And btw, at the same time Joseph Fielding Smith was denying the seer stone, he had it (along with a bunch of important and controversial documents) stored in his small green filling cabinet that he kept locked and in the First Presidency vault in the Administration building. The little filling cabinet had wheels and Smith would roll it into his office from time to time when he needed to look though the materials. I was told this by a now deceased secretary who worked there and saw it. She reverently laughed about his "little green cabinet" when talking about it.
One shelf item for me was how inconsistent the "church" in the book of mormon is from the modern LDS church. Were those Nephites wearing garments? Were they being assigned callings? The BoM denounces polygamy and then JS changed his mind?
If god is the same yesterday, today, and forever then.... I'm really confused.
Jews wear Tzit Tzits so did Jesus. Study up.
@@henochparks where are all those swords the book of mormon talked about?
I would like to offer you the same invitation - study up 🙌
@@pleasepleasethebees humm you do know copper swords, knives, head plates, spear points Etc. Etc have been found Yea? You do know copper mines with tons of copper missing have been found yea? No one knew this in 1829. You do know swords made of wood with obsidian edges have been found yea? All where Joseph Smith said they were. You might try studying up on the mound cultures of the the central and east parts of the US. They match Book of Mormon history. The Book of Mormon denounces Polygamy. Mormons did not practice Polygamy. They practiced Plural Marriage, as did Abraham and Moses. Do you know the difference? Clearly you don't. Again study up.
@@henochparks except that the BoM says they were STEEL swords, lol. Polygamy as practiced by the mormon church was a patriarchal, abusive, and predatory practice which drew young girls into marriage/ownership of old perverted men.
Study up bro... you're not too clear on your own religion or church history facts. Joseph Smith was doing the nasty with underaged girls, sister pairs, mother daughter pairs. Guy was a freak. He used older women to help gain access to younger women. Don't like the way that sounds? Study up and then decide if the treasure digger is worthy of your loyalty and devotion. Guy was a confirmed con man documented in court cases before religion was even a twinkle in his eye.
@@henochparksCome on man. Do you want to be tricked so badly you're willing to trick yourself? I used to be the same. There is no evidence that the society that the book of mormon tells a story about ever existed in reality. Full stop. If there was an actual record of American peoples don't you think scholars would be overjoyed to read and learn from it?
Believing the BoM is literally true is the same as believing Harry Potter is literally true and that there's a secret society of witches and wizards and a school called hogwarts and a Ministry of Magic.
The way the church now explains how the BoM and other scriptures from JS came to be, you have to basically believe in "channeling", not translation. You also have to believe in a seer stone - the same stone that JS used to con people into paying him to dig for treasure - which he never found and that's why he was taken to court prior to starting the church. JS had some occult beliefs and practices.
There's a book called "In Sacred Loneliness" which you can read about all of JS's relationships. That book is referenced on the church's website. In fact, go to the church's website, search "Gospel Topics Essays" and read everything there. "In Sacred Loneliness" was used as a reference for one of those essays and it was linked.
These are just the problems with JS and the founding of the church, but there's even more once you realize that you're in the Brighamite branch of Mormonism. How did Brigham Young end up as church leader after Joseph died? More shady stuff happened and the church was split and there are other branches of Mormonism.
There's just too much evidence that the church has suppressed and not informed it's members about and, actually, actively told us not to look into. That's a cult move. Jim Jones did the same. Scientology does the same. Etc etc. Information control. They want to control the narrative. They told us Joseph and Emma had a beautiful relationship. They even made movies about it. Not so. Joseph accused Emma of poisoning his coffee. True story. He treated her like shit and was stepping out on her before he thought to bring back the idea of polygamy (with a girl named Fanny Alger, look it up) Also, Jesus said all the stuff from the Old Testament was done away and he ushered in a new, higher law. So why is Joseph "restoring" polygamy?
Once you start looking, there are logical fallacies all throughout the church and different prophets contradict each other on different things all the time. The temple really strains the concept of of being saved through Jesus. Why do we have to pay money and commit everything to the church to be saved in the next life? That's not how Jesus himself said it worked.
At the end of the day, belief in the church is mostly based on feelings and emotions and for a lot of us, old family traditions. If that's what keeps you there, great. But be informed about the pros AND the cons. People leave for legitimate reasons and anyone who says differently has their head stuck up their butt.
For me, learning about narcissistic behavior and groupthink really opened my eyes to what happens in religions like LDS.
My exhusband is that way- doesn’t matter how much evidence, he won’t question anything. He’s read the CES letter and such to ‘prove he’s not brainwashed’ but just says the church is true and won’t give any other explanation. He was raised homeschooled on a goat farm with his only socializing being with other extreme conservative Mormon homeschoolers or church groups though so he’s a lot more programmed into it than I was even.
Homeschooled in a goat farm…great environment for brainwashing lol
literally the haircut I rocked from 1993-96. Quite the look lol. Thanks for the upload guys!
Yeah I was thinking the same. I must be old 😃
Love Taylor’s new hair, he’s seriously “tearing at my heart” lol. 90s are back in. It just needs to be bleach blonde or with highlights at least for the boy band look. Great new content.
Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that the technology in the BoM never advances? There’s no new inventions of anything. It’s a stagnant civilization for 1,000 years.
I guess since it was already full of technology that didn’t exist yet when it was supposedly taking place, Joseph didn’t want to get too crazy 😂
Tanner, super digging that 90s haircut!
I am a weird occult polytheist and I think it's so interesting that the validity and truth of the scripture is so important to people. In the occult we believe stuff that we know is a myth, on purpose, because it still works.
Tanner got hot? Excuse me, Tanner's always been hot, this is just a fresh iteraton.
WORD! 🤜🤛 Tanner is damn SEXY! 💋
Thanks for another great episode! One interesting theory I've heard for the "lost paradise" stories is that they're referencing the transition from hunter-gatherer to agricultural societies. Hunter-gatherer societies spend an average of about 4 hours a day on actual food collection, rather than the sunrise to sunset schedule of farming. This leaves a lot more time for quality time, creative pursuits, etc. The change to agriculture brings a more plentiful and reliable source of food, but there's a lot of drawbacks as well, and I can believe that humans have historically looked back at pre-agricultural life with a sense of nostalgia.
Damn tanner looking nice today
I seriously love your videos. I have long thought, and still do (fwiw) that you 2 are among the best content creators in the "Ex" communities (Ex-LDS, Ex-JW, Ex-Scientology....Ex-Christian.... and so on.)
That’s so nice!!!! 😭💜
@@ZelphOntheShelf l hope you continue with your efforts to deconvert
poor brainwashed Mormons. By the way, I am neither a Christian nor an atheist. I am a polytheist (of the Hellenic variety), which is an option people don't seem to even realize exists.
new cut is soo flattering!! love it
thanks for getting me through an hour of my road trip!
@@annalevering4054 ❤️❤️❤️
"Tanner got hot." No, Tanner got *more* hot.
Anyway, I'll watch the video now.
👌 FOR SURE! I was ALWAYS goo goo eyes for Tanner. 🙏 I’d thank the Universe everyday to be Tanner’s partner. 😍🥰😘
Sam your hair is pretty too!
Sam’s a goddess to begin with and Supermodel HOT-she can do no wrong. 🤩
This was a great episode. Your logic was impeccable and presented in a clear, informative, and humorous manner. Love Tanner’s new hair style.
Tanner the hair cut was a EXCELLENT choice. That hair holds power
thank you!
The power of silky hair compelled me, to agree
Your mimi-rant starting at 53:23 everyone should listen to! Understanding the emotional connection to the "tribe" is so important. Everything preceding was fantastic too. Listeners can also check out Brother Jakes Defends the Book of Mormon; using incredible satire to look at the anachronisms. You guys do a great job at dissecting the destructive nature of following the curriculum of high demand religions. Congrats on amazing content!
Tanner, I can't handle how fashionable you are. Iconic haircut, looks great on you!
Damn Tanner, you have me questioning my sexuality for the first time.
I can see that. He’s indeed a cutie pie! 😍😍😍
@@rtwindsor Holy shit! I want a 10 pack too! That's some dedication.
Tanner is always hot 😅 this is just another Thursday. The only haircut I've ever disliked on Tanner is the "clean-cut Mormon" look.
agreed
I totally concur! 🤤🤤🤤 He’s so SEXY-body heart, mind, and soul (not necessarily in any respective order, but he has a certain attraction).
Little Tanner writing about the waters of Sebus is so cute lol.
Even if you’re tempted to believe TBM, The Book of Abraham ought to make it clear that Joseph Smith simply created these fictions.
I actually get a "buzz" when I read Finnegans' Wake, which I've always assumed is similar to what religious people get when reading various scriptures. Words are a form of music and can affect people in similar ways.
I like to come back and listen to what Sam said at 53:25 because when I first did, it was a paradigm shift for me and started me on a journey of understanding the brain and psychology behind group think, confirmation bias, etc. that was life changing for me because before I “couldn’t deny what I had felt and experienced” I almost laugh now thinking of that because it’s so obvious I was feeling and experiencing what millions of others do when their thoughts and feelings have been manipulated with their particular narrative. Sam is completely right that evidence and facts really don’t matter to most people if you can’t explain their own subjective experience. Their feelings don’t care about the facts haha and that was totally me. Grateful for this channel. Really helpful and important.
Aww I loved watching this. It's like coming home. I binged all of your content when I was going through my ascension out of the church a few years ago. Really thankful to have had both of you throughout the years to reinforce my own truth and authenticity ❤️ You've really challenged my thinking and helped me break through in so many ways
Ok now we’re crying
Thank you so much for these kind words!!!!! 💜💜💜💜
I totally agree, although I left over 10 years ago I didn't deconstruct until being fully educated by Sam & Tanner along with many other great Podcasters on the subject. S + T are favorites with their willingness to share their wisdom and knowledge with a perfect quantity of comedy 😊
@@ZelphOntheShelfI wish I had real money to give, you deserve it and much more 😊
Tanners laugh always makes me smile and laugh! Y’all are awesome
I feel the same. 🥰🥰🥰 One could always dream for Tanner as a life partner. 💘
Tanner love the hair! Excited to watch this while I work in the morning :)
The Naked Mormonism podcast did a really intense breakdown of the BoM, and there were other episodes that discussed the influences other books around at the time most likely had on J Smithy. Very eye opening imo
You two are doing such a good job!
Love your personalities and your content. ❤
Keep up the good work.
Bruh you two could totally write a book better than the BoM. If it keeps me awake it has already won!
I cringe at how I used to scoff at secular fields that contradicted the BOM 😬
Thanks again Guys! ❤️❤️
You both have fabulous hair. Samantha w her bangs that won't quite, and Tanner channeling Sean from Boy Meets World. 😉
Great video AND hair everybody! 😊
Sad, on what near total control control can do. I gave up on organized religion for that reason. My association with god is personal, just god and myself.
Meso Americans did have wheels, but they didn't use them for carts and things (lack of horses, or other work animals, except the llama, but they were in a mountainous region where carts aren't very useful). There are extant wheeled toys from the pre-Columbian period.
Great episode and great haircut!
Love the haircut!
Nice haircut, Tanner! This was a fun little romp through some of the issues of the BoM. Goodness knows there are a lot 👀
Love the new look, Tanner. Love the ZOS videos.
On the topic of books written in a short time the main text for the religion Thelema called the book of the law was written in 3 days when the author was high on a bunch of drugs.I’m not apart of that religion but I have read the first chapter and it is really great. I think why I like it is it is poetic not that books like the Bible can’t be poetic in certain places but this one is a prose poem. It is also a occult religion so that definitely is another reason why I like the book so much.
Yaaas Tanner, love the hair, absolutely bangin! 💃🏻
0:06 SAM u took the words right outta my mouth hahaha like omigod I saw the thumbnail and was like TANNNER! HELLO CURTAIN BANGS🤩😍
Love K-Pop Tanner
Seriously. I tried to cut my hair this way... It didn't work out
Tanner great haircut,such a babe
RIGHT! He’s on my future husband list. 🥰🥰🥰 He makes me weak in the knees.
the new do with dangly earing is a classic lewk
I've never read it, but my guess is that it's not.
But if you ignore all the anachronisms there’s literally nothing that proves it’s false.
@@SamGarfield1 yeah, that's why all the idiots believe in it.
I'm sorry it took me three days to watch this, you guys 😬😕 Tanner, I still owe you big time for that first time you recommended the "How to Build a Trans-Oceanic Vessel" podcast episode; I absolutely second, third, and fourth your encouragement to others to go find it and listen to it. It was SO worth the time. Fabulous!
I think I remember hearing that all latter day Mormon prophets claim to be direct descendants of Jesus. Does anyone else remember hearing that? And if they do how does “the church” try to prove that?
I don't know the answer, but, all I know is - the
DEVIL is a great LIAR.😈😈😈 👺👺😳😳
Tanner, you looking like Johnny Depp
This was so well done. My favorite video besides "bring 'em young".
Current feedback on haircut: I adapt to change too slowly so I'm flabbergasted & in denial... but ultimately, looking good Tanner!
Dr.Seuse taught me how to read ....now I'm a cat in a hat !
The church provided "the illusion of security." 💯 For all of eternity,, no less! But, it was all an illusion, just like when Toto revealed that the great and powerful Wizard of Oz was nothing but a mere man behind a curtain.
I’m gonna need you to sing 🎶 I want it that way 🎶 Tanner. Like expeditiously. TELL ME WHYee I love this channel so much. Glad to see a new vid
The Gilgamesh poems came from the mesopotamia culture and some stories are present in the Bible as well but are differently written. One story in Gilgamesh describes a god who was awakened by the rowdy humans and in his angered state he brought a flood to exterminate them. The other gods in this myth then tried to calm said god down and end the flooding of the world. I don't remeber the exact details but somehow the god manage to calm down and showed regret for their action afterwards.
There are several stories about flooding from different areas of the world and from a historical point of view there have been local events of storms or tsunamis. So it's partly factual that flooding has happened but not in such a global way as described in the Gilgamesh poem or in the Bible. It's more likely that some stories are meant as metaphors for different themes and ways to cope with things out of human control. Some religious stories are from years of oral traditions before someone at some point wrote them down so it makes sense that a story about a regional flood change into something larger than life. Each storyteller might add a thing or two to spice it up and make the story interesting and engaging.
Great video! Thanks guys.
I love the fact this video is getting interrupted by ads for Jesus.
Wow, if the so-called Prophets and Apostles of Mormonism are no longer able to provide revelation, why are they holding the office and being PAID?! (They could be equally as ineffective if they successfully ran for political office.)
love these, love hearing from y'all, the hair is phenomenal, Tanner
The Lost Paradise might arise from people who have lived in a place where things were wonderful but then invaders came or there was internal strife that tore it all apart. In other words, a literary form of "the good ol' days".
TANNERRRRRR 🔥🔥🔥
And also: TANNERRRRRR 🤤🤤🤤
I’m literally so distracted by how hot Tanner continues to get
Tanner just gets HOTTER and HOTTER! 🔥🔥🔥 All he has to do is read the 13 Articles of Faith wearing nothing but a thong and he’s got my attention. 🤩
Sam I love your sweater so much 😍
Tanner looking GOOD
you're right, Sam, Joseph said some revelations are from God and some are from man and some are from the Devil....so yeah that's what he said to the people who went to get money for the copyright of it BOM.
Tanner exploring all the styles is me rn.
One thing to bring up to about the book of Mormon story. It claims that people traveling to the new world that the boats were driven by furious winds for 344 days, just consider that if the "furious winds" only drove the boats at 10 mph for 344 days they would have traveled almost 82,000 mi. They could have circumnavigated the globe several times.
Novels at 8:49. Charles Bukowski wrote his first novel Post Office in seven weeks.
SORRY I SAY “LIKE” SO MUCH UGH
Before writing the book of Mormon, Joseph Smith took the King James bible and rewrote his own version of it. It's called the, 'Inspired version'.. He did this awhile before concocting the BOM.. Later when writing the BOM he incorporated large sections of his own version of the bible in the BOM word for word. Let's put on our thinking caps for a moment. If some so called angel of god revealed the location of the golden or bronze plates to Smith, gave him special seer stones to look through so he could translate it, why would it turn out to include large sections of his own bible word for word? He also republished the BOM several times during his lifetime before being shot to death by fellow Mormons. Those republished editions had some pretty major theological changes in them, not spelling and grammar. In any case if his god in fact had him translate the original version why would there be need for later corrections, or modifications? Did Smith's god change his mind?
It appears to me that Joseph Smith created his god in his own image, fickle, impulsive. In a similar fashion Muhammad created a god in his own image as well and Islam bought into it.. These cult leaders share a lot in common..
Mormons are great at fooling themselves. None of the investigations into the historical validity of the BOM have uncovered any evidence (contrary to the bible which does). The Mormons have developed an answer to satisfy their desire to believe it by saying that their god removed all evidence of the events that the BOM points to in order to test their faith..
Great comment! Where could one find information on Smith's inspired version of the KJV, that is, if the LDS church has not locked it in their vault?
Also, I do not believe the LDS church claim that Smith died a Martyr. I also believe Smith was killed by fellow Mormons.
Knowing Smith's appetite for women, more likely he died at the hands of a jealous husband. Even a monkey knows not to monkey with another monkey's monkey.
Tanner's hair and moustache here is such a look ✨
Jesus said in Matthew 6:24: "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one and love the other; or else he will hold to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon." (KJV) "Mammon" refers to money or material things in general. "Greed" is NOT good!
Spiritual witness at 4:44. Don't forget about the "burning in the bosom" .
Pseudepigrapha means that it is a writing falsely titled and usually also pseudonymous (attributed to another name/author). 1st Enoch is considered Pseudepigrapha, but it has more of a place in the biblical canon than the Book of Mormon does, because it is cited VERBATIM as authoritative and reliable in the Epistle/Letter of Jude. Apologists try to counter that even the pagans were quoted in the "New Testament", but the quote from 1st Enoch contains the Tetragrammaton, the Personal Name of the Creator. In the Torah it is forbidden to employ that Name in a worthless way, which would have been what "Jude" was doing if it were not an authoritative work in his community. (And never mind that there are more copies of 1st Enoch in the Dead Sea Scrolls than some books of the Law of Moses...but that could be because it was considered trash or had more errors. Nevertheless, it demonstrates how popular the book was to SOME PEOPLE in or near Judaea.) "Fan-Fiction"! That's brilliant! The lady has an extremely good grasp of some of the abstract controversies in Mormonism. She succinctly articulates problems that most of the time only bang around inside my head trying to find a way out through my tongue.
Do you ever get a chance get a book of Mormon that was written in 1842 and get a book of Mormon from 1942 and the one in 2022 you'll notice a lot has been rewritten and changed in all these books down the line there is even things that are left out from the 1842 in the 1942 ones can you explain that why that is happening.
I tested the book by reading it . Looks like BS .
according to the book of mormon logic, twilight is real bc it makes me happy
I literally felt "the spirit" THE STRONGEST when I read Joseph In The Gap by Taylor Drake. It's a book that professes JS was a fallen prophet lol I didn't believe in the church at that time but I straight up felt like I had felt the spirit. The BOM has never produced a great feeling in me. It's very bland and uninteresting. Mormons quote the BOM the same way a movie trailer shows all the interesting parts of the movie. There's like seven good quotes in the BOM and that's it, which is why everyone quotes them. So dull
👏🏻👏🏻
Hot Tanner Version 3000
Where is the link to that podcast?
gdoc.pub/doc/e/2PACX-1vRh7CxIlETHNYtH5jk0MXsWc5FVChckAUODY2QDGjLCjDGYWFgzOlGq1JORs4EZsbDzh63DvdShYNU1
@@ZelphOntheShelf that podcast made it very clear that that boat could have never been build there. It's fascinating how members of the lds church believe this as a never-mo
Magic rock in a hat. It should all end there.
You’d think ;)
Is Tanner starting a boy band?
Is the BoM true? No. The broadway show is good though 😀. The mental gymnastics to believe any of these allegedly holy books are exhausting 🤯
I was recently looking at prices for old BMs. A fourth edition of the BM sells for $45.000.
Killer Haircut Tanner!!!
Deuteronomy 13 and 18 tell a person enough to recognize a false prophet (according to the same body of literature in which prophets, according to the biblical definition, were introduced). 13:3 "you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is TESTING YOU to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul."
For me personalty it is the fact that the church will claim that it is a book of god because at lest every verses mentions Jeusus, do you know what is said more often? "and it came to pass."
I feel good when I read Harry Potter!! I guess that means.....!?!
Don't forget that the church would tout how Joseph Smith wrote about 8 pages of the book of mormon per day when today it takes a day just to translate one page to a different story, but... yeah, of course it takes longer to translate something than to write it originally
Have you prayed about 1st Enoch? The Epistle of Barnabas? The Shepherd of Hermas? The Book of Jubilees? The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles to the Nations? The Community Rule? The Dasmascus Document? Remember! Read them and pray about them!
I always got very good feeling when I read Mad Magazine, when they stopped publishing Mad magazine, then I realized that it must have been Satan that caused publication to cease
i also remember reading that joseph later said it was a revelation from satan to sell copywright
TANNER IS HOT
alert the press!
More like STOP THE PRESS, this guys so 🔥 I’m 🫠. 😍😍😍
I'm confused.... The book of Mormon says that David and Solomon's practice of having many wives and concubines was an abomination.... And when I check the doctrine and covenants it says that David and Solomon's many wives and concubine's were justified. I think God got confused or maybe Joseph Smith just made it all up