Spot on with riot. They were so ahead of their time. just ask Lars. Huge influence on Metallica. Fire down under and thundersteel. Two of the greatest metal albums of all time. Riot basically invented American power metal with thundersteel. Riots early music still holds up today and continues on with riot v. Check out their new masterpiece mean streets. It’s awesome. Shine on!
First Armored Saint album I ever got was Raising Fear. Absolutely loved them and went backwards in the catalog. Delirious Nomad might be my favorite but they really havent put out anything bad. Shame to lose Pritchard at such a young age and really would have loved to see how they would ha e progressed with his playing. Great topic! Hope you enjoy a fantastic Holiday season!
Thanks - the only one I have is Revelation. I remember being in Karma Records in 83/84 and seeing March of the Saint on the shelf and thought is was an awesome cover but knew nothing about them. It sat there next to Queenryche's EP, Metallica's Kill Em' All, SAXON's Power & the Glory, DIO's Holy Diver and Quiet Riot's Metal Health...the good ole' days!
I would take Armored Saint over WASP every day of the week. Also, I would say a band that should have been bigger would-be Y&T. Too many people think "Summertime Girls" is what Y&T is all about and that is like thinking that "Jump" is what Van Halen is all about.
I think a big part of it comes down to the record label that a band is on. Do they like the band they signed? Do they understand the band? Are the band a part of a scene? Are they promoting the band? Are they using their clout to push the band? Do they have their staff working the album? Are there in-store displays promoting a new release in the record stores? Are they offering tour support? Radio promotion? Video support? Obviously, this whole philosophy was much more prevalent in the 70s, 80s and 90s. It’s a whole new world out there now! Cool show, John. I think you might enjoy a series I’ve done with Peter Kerr over on Rock Daydream Nation. We’ve done two episodes so far - and just filmed a third - on how certain record labels didn’t properly support specific artists. We touch on metal, hard rock and classic rock bands, too. Merry Christmas to you and your family! Your pal and mine, ~ Davey Cretin, from Cretin Classics.
Certainly Anvil. Saw them a few months back and there were only 30-40 people. Great show by the way. The Tubes should have been bigger, I think, as well. Great live band.
Good episode John. Yea Armored Saint like a lot too. Saw them twice. 2000 they headlined with openers Amorphis Moonspell and The Kovenant , Me and my pen friend, and her companion friend were at the show. Met all the bands after the show and took pictures, and me and my friend she and me met John Bush with me and her with John, My pen friend was doing a little mid west tour with the bands. Would see this show in Cincy. Saw Armored Saint open for Saxon in 2015. Met John Bush after the show and he remembered me at the Cincy show with pen friend, Signed autograph for me and at this show met Saxon full band twice in 2013 and 2015. Hung around by the buses after the show and signed autographs and chatted with them for a while like half an hour to an hour both times. Was great. The bands shoule have more popular as they were with me. Certainly they are legendary. Happy Holidays John 🌲🎄
I couldn’t have said it better….i agree wholeheartedly with you…I remember when I first heard of them in the ‘80s… of course we would buy every new metal album that came out.. my buddy brought over the cassette and we listened to them. To this day I can tell you I remember them sounding good but I don’t remember ever listening to it twice. There wasn’t a song that just stood out. They were just a good metal band…but something just didn’t put the hook in us…just started to listen to them after this discussion and yes it’s unfortunate they didn’t become bigger-just didn’t have that hit to initially reel lots more people in
If I had to make a list of 'desert island albums', Symbol of Salvation would be on the list. I think John Bush left after that album though to join Anthrax, which likely killed any momentum a tour would have given them. I give every album at least a 7.5 out of 10, but never having an anthem song has hurt them. Even if you see them live, no one goes to see them saying 'oh I can't wait to hear ....'. Too bad. Still one of my faves though. Two others I would add to the bands already mentioned are Trouble and Savatage.
Yeah that's true about Armored Saint. I didn't know about them when I was getting into metal in the late 80s. The first time I heard their name was when John Bush joined Anthrax. By that time, I wasn't really interested in metal bands I was more into grunge. I only started listening to Armored Saint many years later.
I knew who they were but didn't bother really listening. Checked out Over the Edge and couldn't stand it. When Anthrax released Sound of White Noise I refused to buy it for a few years thinking it would be awful. Glad I eventually gave it a chance because it's an amazing album plus it inspired me to try Armored Saint again, and I quickly became a fan. Still don't like Over the Edge though. 😂
@ I got Punching the Sky when it came out in 2019 I think and really enjoyed it. After seeing them last spring I got one of their 80s albums Raising Fear.
Hi Lair. How about Savatage. I know they had Hall of The Mountain King on MTV but i do not know if they were that big IMO. They changed their music style a little when Paul O'Neill came into the band. Not Glam and Not Thrash. Maybe in between. What do you think. Thanks
I've thought about this for years because Delerious Nomad is one of my favourite albums. They are not popular because they don't write really hooky chorues or riffs. They get close, really close but just not there. Add to that everything they did from album covers to lyrics to publicity to image was so middle of the road.
I think the issue with AS was 2 things 1) Record label and management. They were on a major before most but their label refused to let them tour Europe. The band wanted to go and the label didn't want them to. Meanwhile Metallica were making a name for themselves touring all over Europe. 2) Metal trends. By the mid 80s the only genres of metal anyone cared about were Thrash and Glam metal. A lot of the traditional heavy metal/NWOBHM bands started to fall out of favor. Every metalhead I knew was split into either the thrash or glam camps. No one cared about Armored Saint, Grim Reaper, Raven, Anvil, etc anymore. And a lot of the traditional Heavy Metal bands like Judas Priest, Motley Crue, Quiet Riot, Ozzy had gone full glam by 86.
Armored Saint is a tremendously GREAT live band. I saw them several times. 1st time was in Portland like 2,000 seat venue opening for Metallica's 'Master of Puppets' tour.
I think of Fates Warning, one of my favorites. I don't understand the nature of why they never broke and Dream Theater did. Both have superb musicians, both have lengthy progressive tracks. Fates Warning can admittedly be the moodier of both bands, but perhaps it comes down to label support or timing.
And by the time they released Symbol of Salvation it was too late. SOS has several potential hits and a couple of music videos but it came out right as grunge was becoming popular.
Saxon is another band that should have been much bigger in the states. Poor management and a recolving door of producers I believe are some contributing factors.
Armored Saint is my third favorite band of all time only ranking after Judas Priest and Dio. I agree with you on most of your points except where you say they don't have the songs. Go back and listen to the debut. Every song is catchy with a memorable chorus. Go listen to Symbol of Salvation arguably their best album with amazing songwriting. Go listen to Aftermath from Delirious Nomad to see how they can write epics or Isolation off Raising Fear. Joey Vera is such an underrated amazing bass player. John Bush has one of the most powerful voices in metal. Another thing is that they STILL WRITE amazing records. Go listen to all their latest output especially Win hands Down and you'll see what I mean. They are consistent. No bad albums. No sell outs. Armored Saint also is incredible live. I've seen them many times. I saw them with WASP and they blew them off the stage in my opinion and quite a few other people who I know agreed. I like WASP but Armored Saint is such a superior live band.
That's cool that you are such a big fan of the band, I think I remember you mentioning this in other comments. I do really like them but for some reason there's just something missing for me, but everyone likes different things so I'm glad your a fan.
Alot of Politics comes into play as well especially some of the major labels, promoters etc, running a theatre and being a promoter you learn how nasty politics in the music world can be sometimes.
Armored Saint back in the 80s seemed to lack internal leadership. What I mean is that most bands have one or two members who take charge of songwriting, musical direction, etc but Armored Saint didn't. Could this have contributed to them having so many good songs but few great ones?
I'm thinking UFO, Uriah Heep, Mahogany Rush, Pat Travers Band. They all made it to a certain extent but should have been bigger. I can throw Nazareth in as well.
There are definitely a lot of bands in that category, where I like them, but they never quite had that magic to pull them across to the big side... Raven, Riot, Circus of Power, etc. But what about bands like Blue Oyster Cult? They had one massive hit and another pretty big hit, but were somehow still relegated to smaller venues or larger venues as a double bill or supporting act. At least here in the states all of these bands should have been bigger: Thin Lizzy, UFO and Saxon. Also, why hasn't Megadeth been as big as Metallica? Well, it's the songs. Even as thrashy as Master of Puppets is there is a certain power to it and catchiness that Megadeth never had. But I am sure marketing has helped Metallica along the way as well.
That's a good question about BOC, I'd have to think about that, I mean realistically they have 3 pretty strong radio hits, Reaper, Burnin and Godzilla that get played a lot, so why don't they play bigger venues? Last time I saw them was outside of a sports bar in St. Petersburg Florida.
@ I forgot about Godzilla. Was that really a single? I knew it was kind of a staple of album oriented rock back in the day. Last time I saw them was that a little venue next to Gillette Stadium. Bigger than a sports bar, but really more suited for a local acts.
Marketing and luck are major factors . Bands like April Wine and the mighty Y&T and British bands Magnum and Marillion should have been mega considering their music was pure magic IMO . Then you have tone deaf artists like Bob Dylan and Iggy Pop make the big time ..... go figure ?
Unfortunately Dave Prichard’s death didn’t help Saint’s momentum they had in the late 80s. Also Chrysalis was not a great label for Metal. Maybe a better label and better marketing could have “delivered.”
Because heavy metal is a niche interest.. there was only a brief window, from around 1983 to 1990 in which this music was culturally relevant to the mainstream. It's been dwindling returns since then, and heavy metal is seen pretty much as a bit of a joke among normal people. The only bands that have remained culturally relevant such as Metallica and Foo fighters are only so because they get songs on regular radio.
Foo Fighters metal ??? And metal arguably been around since 1970/71 .., peak from 76 to 89 .., and now very much a cultural resurgence in metal music and culture .., and wtf do you mean by " normal " people ??
Unless the band can appeal to women they will never be mainstream. Metallica didn't become mainstream until they started writing ballads and appealing to women. Women have never heard of armored saint. That's why they're not mainstream.
The Fire Down Under era of Riot and Y&T are two that should have been bigger.
Spot on with riot. They were so ahead of their time. just ask Lars. Huge influence on Metallica. Fire down under and thundersteel. Two of the greatest metal albums of all time. Riot basically invented American power metal with thundersteel. Riots early music still holds up today and continues on with riot v. Check out their new masterpiece mean streets. It’s awesome. Shine on!
was into Armored Saint!!! as a teen in High School, wore March of the Saint album out!!
First Armored Saint album I ever got was Raising Fear. Absolutely loved them and went backwards in the catalog. Delirious Nomad might be my favorite but they really havent put out anything bad. Shame to lose Pritchard at such a young age and really would have loved to see how they would ha e progressed with his playing. Great topic! Hope you enjoy a fantastic Holiday season!
Thanks - the only one I have is Revelation. I remember being in Karma Records in 83/84 and seeing March of the Saint on the shelf and thought is was an awesome cover but knew nothing about them. It sat there next to Queenryche's EP, Metallica's Kill Em' All, SAXON's Power & the Glory, DIO's Holy Diver and Quiet Riot's Metal Health...the good ole' days!
Started with Chrysalis, ended up on Metal Blade. For us Saint fans out here, we feel that all of their music is stellar.
Their 83 E.P was on Metal Blade but you're right, they went to Chrysalis for their first full length.
KIng's X and Fates Warning should have been far bigger.
I would take Armored Saint over WASP every day of the week. Also, I would say a band that should have been bigger would-be Y&T. Too many people think "Summertime Girls" is what Y&T is all about and that is like thinking that "Jump" is what Van Halen is all about.
Y&T is another band that's a good example of this. I should do a video on bands that have "That one song that doesn't really represent them".
I think a big part of it comes down to the record label that a band is on. Do they like the band they signed? Do they understand the band? Are the band a part of a scene? Are they promoting the band? Are they using their clout to push the band? Do they have their staff working the album? Are there in-store displays promoting a new release in the record stores? Are they offering tour support? Radio promotion? Video support? Obviously, this whole philosophy was much more prevalent in the 70s, 80s and 90s. It’s a whole new world out there now!
Cool show, John. I think you might enjoy a series I’ve done with Peter Kerr over on Rock Daydream Nation. We’ve done two episodes so far - and just filmed a third - on how certain record labels didn’t properly support specific artists. We touch on metal, hard rock and classic rock bands, too.
Merry Christmas to you and your family!
Your pal and mine,
~ Davey Cretin, from Cretin Classics.
I'll check out that episode Davey, thanks for the comment!
Agree 100 percent about Cinderella!
Certainly Anvil. Saw them a few months back and there were only 30-40 people. Great show by the way. The Tubes should have been bigger, I think, as well. Great live band.
I've always thought if Anvil had a better singer they could have gone farther.
Good episode John. Yea Armored Saint like a lot too. Saw them twice. 2000 they headlined with openers Amorphis Moonspell and The Kovenant , Me and my pen friend, and her companion friend were at the show. Met all the bands after the show and took pictures, and me and my friend she and me met John Bush with me and her with John, My pen friend was doing a little mid west tour with the bands. Would see this show in Cincy. Saw Armored Saint open for Saxon in 2015. Met John Bush after the show and he remembered me at the Cincy show with pen friend, Signed autograph for me and at this show met Saxon full band twice in 2013 and 2015. Hung around by the buses after the show and signed autographs and chatted with them for a while like half an hour to an hour both times. Was great. The bands shoule have more popular as they were with me. Certainly they are legendary. Happy Holidays John 🌲🎄
I couldn’t have said it better….i agree wholeheartedly with you…I remember when I first heard of them in the ‘80s… of course we would buy every new metal album that came out.. my buddy brought over the cassette and we listened to them. To this day I can tell you I remember them sounding good but I don’t remember ever listening to it twice. There wasn’t a song that just stood out. They were just a good metal band…but something just didn’t put the hook in us…just started to listen to them after this discussion and yes it’s unfortunate they didn’t become bigger-just didn’t have that hit to initially reel lots more people in
Well said, they were a "good metal band".
If I had to make a list of 'desert island albums', Symbol of Salvation would be on the list. I think John Bush left after that album though to join Anthrax, which likely killed any momentum a tour would have given them. I give every album at least a 7.5 out of 10, but never having an anthem song has hurt them. Even if you see them live, no one goes to see them saying 'oh I can't wait to hear ....'. Too bad. Still one of my faves though. Two others I would add to the bands already mentioned are Trouble and Savatage.
Yeah that's true about Armored Saint. I didn't know about them when I was getting into metal in the late 80s. The first time I heard their name was when John Bush joined Anthrax. By that time, I wasn't really interested in metal bands I was more into grunge. I only started listening to Armored Saint many years later.
@@jcrockandmetalreviews I saw them last spring open for Queensryche and they were pretty good.
I knew who they were but didn't bother really listening. Checked out Over the Edge and couldn't stand it. When Anthrax released Sound of White Noise I refused to buy it for a few years thinking it would be awful. Glad I eventually gave it a chance because it's an amazing album plus it inspired me to try Armored Saint again, and I quickly became a fan.
Still don't like Over the Edge though. 😂
@ I got Punching the Sky when it came out in 2019 I think and really enjoyed it. After seeing them last spring I got one of their 80s albums Raising Fear.
Hi Lair. How about Savatage. I know they had Hall of The Mountain King on MTV but i do not know if they were that big IMO. They changed their music style a little when Paul O'Neill came into the band. Not Glam and Not Thrash. Maybe in between. What do you think. Thanks
Savatage is a good one...I would guess like you said it's because they changed styles.
I've thought about this for years because Delerious Nomad is one of my favourite albums. They are not popular because they don't write really hooky chorues or riffs. They get close, really close but just not there. Add to that everything they did from album covers to lyrics to publicity to image was so middle of the road.
I agree, they get really close but they never seem to be able to take it to that next level.
Merry Christmas John. Armored saint is my all time favorite metal band . Don't understand why they didn't get more love ?
Merry Christmas Christian! Cool that you dig Armored Saint, I agree, they should get more love.
@LairoftheAlchemist been a subscriber for years now John. Enjoy your channel/content very much brother 👍
But how was the Wasp concert???
It was great!
@LairoftheAlchemist NICE!
I think the issue with AS was 2 things 1) Record label and management. They were on a major before most but their label refused to let them tour Europe. The band wanted to go and the label didn't want them to. Meanwhile Metallica were making a name for themselves touring all over Europe. 2) Metal trends. By the mid 80s the only genres of metal anyone cared about were Thrash and Glam metal. A lot of the traditional heavy metal/NWOBHM bands started to fall out of favor. Every metalhead I knew was split into either the thrash or glam camps. No one cared about Armored Saint, Grim Reaper, Raven, Anvil, etc anymore. And a lot of the traditional Heavy Metal bands like Judas Priest, Motley Crue, Quiet Riot, Ozzy had gone full glam by 86.
Armored Saint is a tremendously GREAT live band. I saw them several times. 1st time was in Portland like 2,000 seat venue opening for Metallica's 'Master of Puppets' tour.
Nice!
I think of Fates Warning, one of my favorites. I don't understand the nature of why they never broke and Dream Theater did. Both have superb musicians, both have lengthy progressive tracks. Fates Warning can admittedly be the moodier of both bands, but perhaps it comes down to label support or timing.
Armored Saint is a great band!!!
They are not. That’s the point of the video.
You have a sensible wife.
The Lurking Corpses ~ Lurking After Midnight is my number one release of 2024 and it's a crime that they are not more loved... I don't understand why.
I saw that show too bro! Here in San Diego.
Nice
I’ve wondered the same about AS. Probably no hits and no airplay on MTV in 80s. Another band that should’ve been more popular was Y&T.
Y&T is an even more inexplicable one because they had great songs tailor-made to be successful singles.
@ I recall seeing Dave Meniketti join Dee once on Headbanger’s Ball.
And by the time they released Symbol of Salvation it was too late. SOS has several potential hits and a couple of music videos but it came out right as grunge was becoming popular.
Saxon is another band that should have been much bigger in the states. Poor management and a recolving door of producers I believe are some contributing factors.
Saxon love. Saw 3 times. The last two met the full band after the shows.
Armored Saint is my third favorite band of all time only ranking after Judas Priest and Dio. I agree with you on most of your points except where you say they don't have the songs. Go back and listen to the debut. Every song is catchy with a memorable chorus. Go listen to Symbol of Salvation arguably their best album with amazing songwriting. Go listen to Aftermath from Delirious Nomad to see how they can write epics or Isolation off Raising Fear. Joey Vera is such an underrated amazing bass player. John Bush has one of the most powerful voices in metal. Another thing is that they STILL WRITE amazing records. Go listen to all their latest output especially Win hands Down and you'll see what I mean. They are consistent. No bad albums. No sell outs. Armored Saint also is incredible live. I've seen them many times. I saw them with WASP and they blew them off the stage in my opinion and quite a few other people who I know agreed. I like WASP but Armored Saint is such a superior live band.
That's cool that you are such a big fan of the band, I think I remember you mentioning this in other comments. I do really like them but for some reason there's just something missing for me, but everyone likes different things so I'm glad your a fan.
The Crue came along then the Guitar player passed then Badlands then John turned traitor on the band.
I could have had another category called "Bad Luck"...members leaving or dying, in fighting...etc.
Alot of Politics comes into play as well especially some of the major labels, promoters etc, running a theatre and being a promoter you learn how nasty politics in the music world can be sometimes.
For sure.
never had a home sweet home
True
Armored Saint back in the 80s seemed to lack internal leadership. What I mean is that most bands have one or two members who take charge of songwriting, musical direction, etc but Armored Saint didn't. Could this have contributed to them having so many good songs but few great ones?
Metal Church
Metal Church
Savatage
I'm thinking UFO, Uriah Heep, Mahogany Rush, Pat Travers Band. They all made it to a certain extent but should have been bigger. I can throw Nazareth in as well.
Good choices
There are definitely a lot of bands in that category, where I like them, but they never quite had that magic to pull them across to the big side... Raven, Riot, Circus of Power, etc. But what about bands like Blue Oyster Cult? They had one massive hit and another pretty big hit, but were somehow still relegated to smaller venues or larger venues as a double bill or supporting act. At least here in the states all of these bands should have been bigger: Thin Lizzy, UFO and Saxon.
Also, why hasn't Megadeth been as big as Metallica? Well, it's the songs. Even as thrashy as Master of Puppets is there is a certain power to it and catchiness that Megadeth never had. But I am sure marketing has helped Metallica along the way as well.
That's a good question about BOC, I'd have to think about that, I mean realistically they have 3 pretty strong radio hits, Reaper, Burnin and Godzilla that get played a lot, so why don't they play bigger venues? Last time I saw them was outside of a sports bar in St. Petersburg Florida.
@ I forgot about Godzilla. Was that really a single? I knew it was kind of a staple of album oriented rock back in the day. Last time I saw them was that a little venue next to Gillette Stadium. Bigger than a sports bar, but really more suited for a local acts.
@@esteeb67 Not sure if it was a single but it gets a lot of play on classic rock radio.
Marketing and luck are major factors . Bands like April Wine and the mighty Y&T and British bands Magnum and Marillion should have been mega considering their music was pure magic IMO . Then you have tone deaf artists like Bob Dylan and Iggy Pop make the big time ..... go figure ?
I think Dylan falls into that "timing" thing...he came around during the folk era and was part of the counter culture movement.
@@LairoftheAlchemist ... and the fact that a lot of people were stoned out of their minds to notice ... ... cheers John.
@@rocketrod1444 True!
Unfortunately Dave Prichard’s death didn’t help Saint’s momentum they had in the late 80s. Also Chrysalis was not a great label for Metal. Maybe a better label and better marketing could have “delivered.”
Rough Cutt should have been bigger
Don't waste your money on that album, get Nilsson Schmilsson instead.
Never heard of them
Zebra
For sure.
Like most other domains of life, quality does not mean popularity.
It's how you market yourself.....
Because heavy metal is a niche interest.. there was only a brief window, from around 1983 to 1990 in which this music was culturally relevant to the mainstream. It's been dwindling returns since then, and heavy metal is seen pretty much as a bit of a joke among normal people. The only bands that have remained culturally relevant such as Metallica and Foo fighters are only so because they get songs on regular radio.
Foo Fighters metal ??? And metal arguably been around since 1970/71 .., peak from 76 to 89 .., and now very much a cultural resurgence in metal music and culture .., and wtf do you mean by " normal " people ??
Unless the band can appeal to women they will never be mainstream. Metallica didn't become mainstream until they started writing ballads and appealing to women.
Women have never heard of armored saint. That's why they're not mainstream.