6061, 6063, 7071, and 7075 are describing what the alloy of the aluminum is. For example, by weight %: 7075 - 5.6-6.1% zinc, 2.1-2.5% magnesium, 1.2-1.6% copper, balance aluminum 6063 - Silicon minimum 0.2%, max 0.6%, Iron no min, max 0.35%, Copper no min, max 0.10%, Manganese no min, max 0.10%, Magnesium min 0.45%, max 0.9%, Chromium no min, max 0.10%, Zinc no min, max 0.10%, Titanium no min, max 0.10%, Other elements no more than 0.05% each, 0.15% total, balance aluminum -O, -T4, -T6 are describing the temper of the aluminum. All of the alloys mentioned above have heat treat processes that can increase both the Young's Modulus and Ultimate Strength of the material dramatically. -O is the annealed state. -T6 is a tempering and artificial aging process. To take an educated guess at the alloy and temper of the material you could take a look at the percent elongation of the section that broke. For further analysis figure out the stress that the carabiner broke at (stress = load/ c.s. area) and compare it to the ultimate strength of the alloy and temper you suspect. For CYA purposes, this would all still be educated guessing, but might be interesting to look into. Time allowing of course.
@@HowNOT2 At first-thank you for your testing, its makes me more confindet whe im climbing. I have to say one thing, which drives the little sheldon in me crazy- molecule are gases or liquids like O2 oder H2O, this means that 2 or more atomes are connected and thats the only way they exits in nature( except form tec.-application) metals on the other side are only made out of atoms! A test idea which im realy interested in is: How strong are knots in a passive safety application. Im from germany and i climb in the so called "sachsische schweiz" . Instead of classic nuts or cams, we only use doubled overhand, figure eight or other knots as "safty devices" (in case of cracks at least). Because of the super soft sandstone thats the only way allowed, besides UFOs and slings/webing. Could you test this this out for us?😁
@@MKaden-cv3ts I don't really understand your point with molecules, but you could refresh your knowledge on types of intramolecular forces (those that hold atoms together in a molecule, as opposed to intermolecular, which act between those molecules) . Intramolec. Forces are Ionic, covalent and metallic bonds. And then see if studying metallic bonds satysfies your curiosity.
Young's modulus does not increase during any heat treatment process. If a change is measured, the quantity is negligible. Other than that, the info in this comment seems fine.
@@matijaderetic3565 My Point is covalent bonds dont exisit in metals, therefore there are no moleculs in the metal matrix, as he said in 2:05. (besides the case of corrosion-reaction, in wich it is actually possible that single moleculs can exit in cracks at the surface of materials such as metals or plastics. This is by the way the reason for the "delamination-like" corrosion of steel. and yes i know metals cant delaminate) If you want to know more about just hock me up, i can recommend you some titles, mostly in german but i can research for english articels for you. :)
“Looks like they pulled one of the children off the assembly line to make it look bigger than it actually is” 😂😂😂 I’m dead, you made me cough up my bagel 😂
I’ve been testing some of the cheap static lines for years. The issues I’m seeing is that the sheaths tend to bunch up some and the ropes don’t hold their shape. I’ve still got a 7mm set up I have been rappelling down an 80 foot cliff for several years now.
@@Rokmononov how is that a risk? People get so caught up with “everything needs to be 21kn or it’s going to break blah blah blah” I’m from the Fire Dept world where everything is rated to 40kn and we say the same thing about THAT. “If it’s not rated to 40…”, meanwhile that’s 3x the forces you could ever see on a system shock loaded with a 600lb load, even accounting for rope strength loss with knots. All that to say, use what’s rated highly enough. 2500lbs is 5x higher than any max force your hammock is going to see, and if you think you’d break a carabiner using your hammock you should probably get on a major diet ASAP.
Great video, I actually use these generic 12kN carabiners on my 3 hammocks and I really like them in that role. Not a climbing gear by any means, but if you get them at a correspondingly low price, they can be really useful in some applications.
IMO, looking real and costing pretty much the same as the Favofit or Xinda UIAA rated 22kN biners is where they fail the hardest. If they were half the price and visibly different enough that they'd never accidentally end up on my gear loops, I'd actually want a dozen or so for non-life-supporting (or at least never-shock-loaded, like the hammock) applications. At the usual prices, though, there's no reason not to go with an off-brand-but-rated biner twice as strong, so at least I don't have to worry that I'll suddenly notice "12kN" attached to a prusik I'm using to back up a sketchy rappel.
I don't know what brand, but I've bought a variety of similar carabiners from Amazon and I've never done any climbing or had any desire whatsoever to do any climbing. I've been quite pleased with them. You're definitely right about anyone misrepresenting them for being for climbing, but there is definitely a market for non-climbing carabiners.
I like the Metolius Nano for non-climbing carabiners. I know that no matter what I am using it for, keychain, hammock, etc, it will be plenty strong enough, and it is built to the standard of safety and reliability it claims to be given the reputable manufacturer, rating, and seller. Once you include amazon's fulfillment and shipping costs, it isn't all that different from buying real ones from REI, and the peace of mind is worth the 2 dollars.
I think something that's worth considering is: These devices are great for non-climbers, non-critical safety situations. Hanging a hammock? Go for it. Suspending your food bag up in a tree? Definitely. Even using it as an assisted lower for something like a canoe down a steep slope. However, as a climber, I would never get these devices for fear they might mix into my main gear. Even though I'd (probably) spot the non-climbing ones and avoid their use, one of the people I bring out with me might grab one from my kit without realizing. Instead, for all of my camping stuff, I simply retire older carabiners for that (which comes with the added benefit that I can more likely use the gear I have on me during camping for more critical applications).
I often use climbing carabiners to secure water bottles and other gear. Makes a lot of sense to instead buy cheap ones at a third the price for these applications. I don’t fault them for selling these if they’re labeled as not for climbing; any experienced climber wouldn’t get them mixed up. If you aren’t experienced or trained you probably shouldn’t be rigging your own ropes.
You would be surprised how easy it can be to get them mixed up. I had some like this from a long time ago that we're not climbing rated, matte black, and they could get mixed up with the loads of climbing gear in my basement. If you accidentally grab the wrong one as you are packing for a trip, it could be deadly. I'm throwing away any that I find. Anything that needs a carabiner deserves full strength if you climb or rig anything
The way I see it I would just use proper climbing ones to carry your bottles or what ever as you can use it for climbing if you need it or a back up. Just my thought anyway.
Until someone buys their first harness, biner and atc and heads to their gym. Not everyone who climbs is experienced, and not everyone who is inexperienced find the right information sources. Its fine if they are 17kn, but they should still be embossed with not for climbing, and have absolutely no hint in their advertising that they can be used that way.
@@stephenchurch1784 It's never just one carabiner. Especially when you can use more of them in more places that are not safety critical you're more likely to get more increasing overal cost. And it's even cheaper not to climb. But to each their own.
or they did some quick math and never even tested the carabiners. math said around 16 so they felt safe claiming 12 without any testing. sketchy no matter how they chose the number
It is not uncommon to just rate stuff at some "normal" rating. If you find find to manufacturers with the exact same rating this is what happened 99% of the time
Theo one I bought says they've rated them around 15 to 19kn. So to be safe they rate it under. For sure they say it's not meant for climbing but it should be unmissable in the title or 1st image. I bought it for camping, as I I'm professionally trained for work at height.
Yes please test the Amazon rope that they keep sending me emails to buy lol...I did end up buying a 10.5mm static from Amazon for 15$...The price was just too good to at least buy and use for yard work if I needed it...I found out why it was 15$...The rope length was 35 feet, not 35 meters. It smelled like cancer. And they sheath is going to pull off of it the second you would try to use something like an ascender on it lol...A PSA style video on this junk would be great
@@AstronomyWales Yeah I watched the one where he did the ones that come with the cheap carabiners on the end of the rope..This one I'm talking looks just like a climbing rope, says it's CHNA certified (not even sure if that's a real thing) and is wrapped with a nice velcro enclosure with the rope diameter and a person climbing painted on it..So it would be shitty if it didn't hold up trying to be a climbing rope...never-ending it being static to begin with...I'm sure it's fine to have and only use to rappel out of a window in a fire emergency, but that's about all the higher I would trust it
The one point that was kind of glossed over is the importance of good quality control. Everything from tracking manufacturing defects, to sampling plans, to tracking reports of defects, to issuing recalls are critical to ensure a product is safe and effective. Yes, these specific crabs performed above their rating, but how likely would they spot a defective product during production? What is the probability of one of these carabiners having a critical defect? Is there a rate of unacceptable product leaving the facility before they stop production or issue a recall? Or would they just change the branding and keep pushing out product? For example, the one crab pulled it's wire gate straight. This indicated the failure is due to the crack propagating from the wire attachment hole and not where we typically see it, an indication of localized stress concentration in an unusual spot. This shows there's likely insufficient manufacturing controls. The other thing that affects price is design engineering time. Buying these essentially rewards the copycats, and punishes the inventors stifling innovation.
Could be a few reasons why...1) The quality of the aluminum they get (there are companies claiming certain metal grades but are not). 2) skipping the heat treatment process and just using the base material. 3) What type of process used to make them. I guessing they are not hot forged, or stamped or milled out of one block of aluminum (which each process can give a metal certain characteristics)...My guess is they either use cast aluminum to make them (one of the cheapest, quickest and potentially weakest processes to use because it's easy to get air pockets in the metal and make it brittle. Companies use this process because you don't need metal bending equipment or metal milling equipment. You just make one mold of the shape you want and pour liquid metal into it. So you might get a few that hold 15kN and one that holds 9 kN) Or the wire gate is made from a cheaper metal.
Lack of forging was my thought as well. These are probably machined or cast. I have a bit of trouble believing they would have been as strong as they are if cast, but with die casting and post heat treatment perhaps.
My favorite part of videos about sketchy Amazon products is trying to read the SEO-gibberish-riddled descriptions word for word with a straight face. Project Farm and Donut Media have some gems too.
As an arborists we use them to zip line small limbs to the ground, each 23kn sling runner has a "junk" carabiner. we have lots of them in the tree or bucket truck to get limbs down without having the used ones sent back up.
Going through these old videos compared to the newer ones, really impressed with how your production quality and sound quality has improved tremendously since back then. Don't worry, the old videos are still very watchable, just that your experience really shows.
If it comes from Amazon I aint trusting my life to it. Even as a cheap university student deep in debt I'd prefer to keep my limbs and spine intact for a couple dollars more.
thanks for testing these. I have a few of these - i don't climb and would not use them for anything safety critical. I use them for hanging weights from a weight belt for exercising. Good to know their plenty strong for the applications i use them for. They appear good quality and strong for non ciritical applications
This was very entertaining Ryan. Never would I ever use an amazon product for life safety, but I appreciate this video. There are so many new climbers/slackers who may not know that these are not actually safe to use! ps: I really hope you send those back and get your money back.
I bought some wire gates and auto lockers like those on amazon. I really like them for my Key chain and I like them way better than the silver hardware store carabiners for light loads like gym pulley attachments.
I actually just picked up a bunch of BD miniwires for keychains, bear hangs, hammocks, etc after I found a keychain biner in my climbing bag. I don’t want to chance grabbing the wrong thing by mistake.
I bought these for general use and ended up using them on the leg straps I make for sailing PFDs (Mustang vests). The Mustang company sells leg straps (~$100) - to keep the inflated vest from just lifting up around your neck in the water. They're attached with only ABS plastic clips - which seem pointlessly weak. The main purpose of leg straps is to keep the life vest in a better position in the rare event you go into the water. These vests have Spectra or metal D-rings for attaching safety lines to (Jack lines) so you don't get washed overboard. My thinking was 1" webbing straps that have a sewn loop (11 bar stitches) on one end, carabinered to the belt webbing of the PFD, then run under the crotch, through the back loop on the PFD, then back under the crotch to carabiner the other waist strap. This side has a double knot loop so it's adjustable. I figured that these 12kN carabiners should be strong enough. Your weight would be distributed if you were lifted straight up by three points of attachment. If you were lifted by the D-rings less than half your weight would be held by the three leg strap attachments. My logic is that if I was in the water in a serious rescue situation I could quickly clip or tie into the D-Rings (not the leg straps) into whatever a helicopter or rescue vessel threw to me and with no possibility of me falling out of the whole harness PFD - quickly pull me to safety and be ready to help someone else. (I've given them to friends - but I wouldn't assume the liability of selling them. ) I really appreciate your video and testing. I guess it's full speed ahead for my straps. (Two of these carabiners cost about $12, the webbing costs about $6-8, it takes only few minutes to sew the single loop - I give them to my sailor friends. Saves them $100, while providing an additional safety margin. ) And if these carabiners in my straps are ever used to lift a sailor's weight it would be one time event. I also use them on my hammocks (200 lbs max dead weight pull so ~900kN. Hammocks are easy. A standard 30 degree hang is your weight on each line. And I follow the hammock safety rule of don't hang higher than you can drop on your butt.
One thing I would add is that many carabiners (even climbing ones) have components that corrode quickly in salt water. There's a lot of info (and debate) on the carabiners used on sea kayaking tow ropes and tethers used in salt water. I don't doubt that some of the SS components (the little spring for an aluminum gate carabiner) will corrode quickly. I bought a little SS folding knife just before a 5 day course last fall and it was starting to rust by the end. It lived in my PFD so got wet during rescues. Many kayak towing systems use climbing rated carabiners despite the fact that the loads are very low. In addition, those with a notch can easily catch on smaller deck lines, which makes them more of a hazard in use. However, as others have said, for many applications something like this would work fine. In others, it would be dangerous. I would also be very interested in seeing the open gate load capacity.
Thanks a lot for this vid and all your orhers. I don't climb but I bought a load of these to help strap things down on our car roof, and deemed 12kn more than enough, so it's great to see them perform better.
Thanks for making this video! Good reference material for all the people thinking they can cheap out. These misleading comments and video reviews around that stuff are dangerous!
I love love love my metolius FS II mini carabiners (the black one at the end of the video) for trad climbing! They weigh nothing, rack beautifully on even a small harness, and have taken a beating for the past few years without showing much wear. I also use them frequently to teach friends who are getting into climbing about climbing gear strength ratings. It is fun to hold them next to my gigantic rappelling locker and show that it is indeed stronger in most orientations. Some folks say that they are too small to comfortable clip while trad climbing, but I find the small size is just right for "one-handed use."
7 series aluminum has a tighter grain structure and would act similarly to a 6 series t6. Basically they skip the heat treat process most likely for less manufacturing process, but still have the toughness of the 7 series
I use CAMP Nano 22s for accessories like water bottles and flashlights. I figure I need something to clip those with anyway, I might as well have a spare life-safety rated carabiner in case of emergency. I've also got them on some alpine draws, though the small gate can be a bit annoying to clip in to so I have a normal sized carabiner on the other side (CAMP Photon usually).
The simple reason that these break at a lower stress is because of the manufacturing process. A simple formula relating to Pi and Young’s Modulus shows how the Yield stress of a material is proportional to the diameter (C) of any external defects or 2x this length (2C) for internal inclusions. Therefore during a cheaper manufacturing process the inclusions within the metal will have a larger diameter (due to factors such as turbulence in pouring molten metal, type of cast used, solidification time/pattern, use of a riser, etc etc). This consequently reduces the yield stress of the metal and therefore it breaks more easily. That is why metals with identical reference codes can act differently to one another once processed.
These 'biners are (as the Amazon title suggested) for camping, like clipping your hammock to your suspension system. And for that they work just fine, and for half the price of climbing 'biners that are a lot stronger than what I need. So I rate them "super good enough (for hammock camping)". 🤣
This video was super interesting. I am not in favor of purchasing less than reputable gear that you're putting your life on the line for, but I think I'd anything, this shines some light on companies that charge up the wazoo for gear. Also, I would LOVE to see a rope test video, showing the Amazon ropes.
The Amazon ropes are good for hauling. I bought one just for the hell of it and did a handful of short rappels, it did the job but I wouldn't use them as a lifeline at height. Oh! I also bought an Edelweiss Canyon Prime rope from Amazon that is actually legit.
If a worst case lead fall is around 4kN, is there a meaningful difference between an 18kN carabiner and a 21kN one? Or is the concern more about durability and that the cheaper ones may not stand up as well after abuse?
Idea for you guys if you haven't done it. Show all the loading on the ropes during climbing falls. Ie taking a lead fall with soft and hard catches on different load factors. Record anchor loading, belayer loading and climber tie in point loading. I'd also love to see typical anchor loadings too vs angle (I personally try to keep below 60 degrees). This would be great info for the climbing community.
I'd love to see some load tests for Aerial Silks! My wife is all about it and wants a backyard rig. The many falls and flips have got to generate a decent amount of force.
Best hypothesis I have: the gate is the weak point of every cheap carabiner. In every test, what seams to break first is wheter the gate hook or the gate itself. I don't think the heat treatment or aluminium quality is the cause here, the way they break (they snap dry) suggest a heat treatment. I'd say the geometry of the gate hook and/or the quality of the steel the gates are made out of could be the cause of the lower rating. I'm curious Ryan, how opening the gates feels compared to real climbing carabiners?
I don’t get why these are sketchy? They state the rate load 12kN, the break test confirms it exceeds that. They state specifically they are not for climbing. There are many uses for these for non-climbing, for example I use them for spearfishing float lines. They work great. Great video, just not sure why it was so negative towards these.
16:30 if you want to buy climbing gear from amazon, make sure it dont specify that its NOT for climbing... Also that yoga thing with 2 of these carabiners is perfectly safe, its not high up and your more likely to get choked than you are producing a force above 12kN. How far do you have to drop to get that kind of force? it was a picture of someone inside hanging from the ceiling, pretty limited how far you could drop
Looking at the difference with the Camp carabiner, it appears that there might be a significant difference with cross-sectional shape that is somewhat subtle. There's a ridge along the outside of it in addition to the inside whereas the Amazon ones only have the inner (upper case I instead of upper case T). It may not seem like much, but especially with how they failed, it seems that the amount of torque it can withstand is by far the limiting factor, and the ridge on the outside makes a significant difference. Note, the Metolius also had this ridge. It's probably more difficult to make these shapes as they have a concave portion while the Amazon ones can get away with convex designs
Love your content. I was a bit disappointed in this vid because I was hoping to see you test the crosloading and open gate strength of these. For me having no idea what those ratings are is the biggest reason not to use them. I have considered paring one of these with a cam that is also only rated for 12 KN but thought better of it when the idea that the strength could drop down to under 7KN if it ends up crosloaded in a fall. I kinda hate to see you buy more of these but I would certainly tune in for those tests.
Since they look so close to real ones, could they be rebranded QC failed names brand UIAA ones? Aslo i think they are 50% over rating because the QC is off on them so some might be higher and some are lower.
By the way, just saw today in a garden someone having a home made swing set. The seat is held with ropes (I presume static ones). The ropes are connected to the frame via a cheap carabiners - I recognized them as they are sold in local shops, very similar to amazon ones. The structure is: Frame (wood), ring bolt to the wood, carabiner connected to the ring, ropes and seat. Would it be possible to test cheap carabiners whether they are able to hold safely those seats for kids and adults alike? (from your tests I would say they may be sketchy)
I have been quite curious on an Amazon product because I've used these before in non-life support situations and it is a Swing Swivel, 30KN Safety Rotational Device. In my opinion they are a hell of a lot smoother that the similar variations from petizl and notch and dmm i believe. I have always wondered if they are actually properly rated
I just bought a discontinued Black Diamond oval (hooked nose, not keylock). I noticed it rates only 18kn closed gate, 6kn open gate, and 7 kn cross loaded. Perhaps these relatively low numbers are why it was discontinued, but I feel fine using it sparingly, since it's mainly for racking nuts anyway.
You need polycarbonate covered with stoneguard to catch the flying pieces without scratching. The soft stoneguard is surprisingly good. But nice they did beeak above the rating. But yes gravity + weight is a great force multiplier.
I'm glad I stumbled upon this as I did because for my uses these seem to be absolutely perfect. I've been using my quickdraw biners for camping but sometimes I want to climb and camp and need the draws. The use case for these biners would be hanging up my hammock, hanging from my mobile hangboard and using it to connect weights to my no-hang device. All those usecases put hardly 1kN of load on the biners, let alone 12kN and when I can get 6 of these for 13 bucks (basically $2 a pop) it's really a no-brainer. I don't have any wiregate biners anyway, but I'm still going to put some yellow tape around these just in case I'd ever forget.
I like them for carrying keys and tying down loads in my truck bed. Usually the gate on "keychain" carabiners are on a spring that gets weak and is unreliable for staying clipped. They of course are no good for tying down loads because they are too weak.
In quality assurance, it is usual to measure repeatability (ie. multiple samples on the same test system/tester), and reproducibility (ie. different batches over long term, different testers/test equipment). This is often done in Tier I automotive industry with 3 different testers and 10 non-destructive testing samples. As you do destructive testing, thid would require 30 test samples. From this, we can calculate the standard deviation statistic, and estimate the statistics for the whole population that was manufactured. For the Amazon specials, they may have a high variability in their manufacturing process, so they derate the rating to allow for this uncontrolled variability.
This was really useful so see and learn from. Can you breaktest some knots used in climbing? Dubble 8 knot, bowline, dubble bowline (with and without stopper knot) I subscribed, hope to learn a lot more 😃👍🏼
My guess for why they are breaking lower is less material at the strongback of the bend where most of them are shearing, mixed with a softer steel clip that bends and stretches further allowing a feed back onto the strongback of the carabiner. Thus, the further the clip bends and stretches, the more torsion on the strongback, hence a lower break force.
At face value rating 50% higher than the stamped rating seems like a good thing, but it really shows how much of a difference in quality control there is. I would wage that if these go really high in quality randomly they could also go the opposite direction too.
Well, if you're engineering for a safety factor of 2, there's nothing wrong with that. Unless you want a chair that'll explode once you reach 1lb over the "rated" load.
I do training on gymnastic rings indoors when weather are extreeme outside. So my rings are attached to triangle climbing carabines that rated 45kn, use them becauce need flat space to attach ring belts. O.k. but thing is I want to say is that those carabines are attachet to concrete sealing with 12mm anchors, that rated only to hold 100kg, and I think it is horizontally, mine are vertically. So in short I'm hangind on 2x 100kg rated anchors with my head down and doing all crazzy stuf with rings already 2 years with no problem at all, and don't think it ever will come off. My weight is 85kg-90kg. So yeah 2400kg is enough even for grown gorilla male doing aeiral yoga, dude! Even car weight of volkswagen golf 2015 is 3126 lbs it is 1417.93 kilograms so car can do yoga too hanging on two amazon carabines :)
I use them for my hammock and to hang up my training equipment. They're also good to hang your shoes on your belt. For that purpose I would say they provide a good bang for your buck, can't deny that
I just subscribed for the third time... that’s a thing right? Your bad gear break tests are funny as fu...errrr k? Any news on the Beal escape? As far as good amazon gear to test, check out Xinda, and Camnal. They seem to be legit Chinese climbing gear companies and it’s always nice to be surprised. There’s a tonne of ambiguous legalese descriptions for sub 9mm ropes on amazon that are blatantly marketed at budget tight newcomers, but Xinda are priced like Petzl and Camnal are priced like budget used black diamond gear, never tried the Xinda gear. Lastly, read an old article on using pulley wheels at top rope anchor to offset weight differences and rope tension, there was some Veeerrrrry heated back and forth both with good points about pros and cons, figure this might make for an interesting topic to cover? As always, love your videos! Please keep making them funny like this, you’re great at polite mockery, although I miss the slow mo footage, something very cathartic about watching those fractures grow ^_^
I believe they're rated so low because of lacking QC. Some (batch) of them might barely scratch 12kN, while others are as strong as you found them. The Orange one (just) held 13.8kN. Some people will climb with low quality gear no matter what you tell them. Wether it's just old, heavily used, damaged or faulty from the factory. Other people might just use these for clipping stuff to their Backpacks. I'm actually impressed that they undersell rather than outright lie about their performance. So as long as there's no lie used to sell these, im all live and let live. Or climb and let climb?
Great video... What about testing plastic carabiners speciali those selled in army or military surplus. Wondering why plastic ? Well for hammok camping are useful, specially if rain falls you want to have the less metal as posible to prevent lighting bolt attraction.
the hammock vs monopod thing at 7:25 is actually wrong. I did the math when making my hammock suspensions, and if your hammock lines are rigged shallower than 45°, each line is actually under *more* tension than the weight of the person in the hammock. I would be *much* less concerned about the monopod thing, or even the aerial silks earlier, provided they didn't do any drops that would shock load the carabiner.
I tried to rig my hammock with 500lb dyneema string and I ended up on the ground pretty quick, and I weigh 180lb. Granted that is partially because I rigged the string using knots instead of proper spliced loops, and one of my knots slid and then snapped. I feel much safer with my 1600lb amsteel!
I recently got to see my family's horses for the first time since before quarantine, and we had some new lead ropes for them. As I've recently fallen down this channel's rabbit hole (literally with the caving episode -- more of that please!), I naturally thought "I wonder what this would do on the snap machine". It's a standard "Poly Lead Rope with Bolt Snap". Seems to be a sheath+core construction similar to a climbing rope, wondering if it's essentially just a super thick climbing rope (it's 0.75 inch thickness, or just about 19mm)
I use these. But not for climbing. I use them to hang tools or transport my backpack from one height to another at work. And they work. For everything else I would only use real climbing carabiners.
As a non-climber that has used these types of carabiners for years for my keys, I can say me experience is that they all have withstood the foreces of whatever I snag my keys on vs my belt loops and not failed. Was the belt loops that have failed 1--% of the time.
I will say I used to use these for my hammock, for normal hammock use at like 3' AGL max. Eventually I decided Metolius FS stands for "full of s___" referring to the "for climbing only" marking, and started using the minis for the hammock. They haven't exploded yet. All in all, most of the improvement comes from Metolius doing a better job of deburring the "beak" that engages the wiregate, so it doesn't snag my stuff. I mean, I don't know what shock load my hammock is rated for, but I really wouldn't expect even a 12kN biner to be the weak point.
I remembered i had a caribiner hanging around the house while watching this video. GORUCK labelled, Omega USA, and rated for 31kn closed. Pretty happy with my chosen bag 'biner for holding gloves and stuff, if need be it's certainly super good enough! Thanks.
I'm glad UA-cam placed your video in my list. I just bought 2 of these for camping but I wasn't sure if they're really that strong. Now I know they are that's cool. Also I'm trained for work at height so no worries I know what's good for climbing or not. :)
If you use this stuff for dog leash, they are pretty fine. I honestly have more problems with material carabiners when I climb. I took them all from my harness and use fully certified smaller screw-carabiners, they are about 50 grams. Like this I always have 2 or 3 reliable spare carabiners with me in case I drop one.
Think you could figure out a way to do cyclic loading tests? Maybe an arduino controlling the hydraulic ram based on tension from the dyno. Would be slower and a general pain in the ass, but might show more of the difference between these and proper climbing biners.
Great test. Do climbing ropes and slings age? I climbed in the 90s. My gear has been in the cupboard since then. Is it safe to give to someone else for climbing?
Ben's answer is a bit short and ambiguous: "No, it is not safe to give it to someone for climbing, Yes, they age." :-) Great to practice knots, how to handle gear etc on the ground at home, though.
Honestly, From description alone (haven't watched everything yet), I would have no issues using these for hammocks or 2 of them for aerial yoga, Even swinging benches, though I'd be sceptical. Should be plenty strong in theory. Will update once I finish video. Update: Looks fine for NON CLIMBING APPLICATIONS. I'd use them on backpacks and hammocks, walking my dog, or even an emergency halter fix for my horse, or maybe a neckrope clasp.
Another fantastic video! I’m like SO CURIOUS though about the Camp 22s! I use them myself yet their strength stats appear to break the laws of physics I’d happily throw $100 your way to break test them Or more! You decide
@@tomtom4405 yea I bought two of the draws to see how they'd work. The answer is not very well. They are good enough for clipping nuts or for clipping my backpack to the anchor.
6061, 6063, 7071, and 7075 are describing what the alloy of the aluminum is. For example, by weight %:
7075 - 5.6-6.1% zinc, 2.1-2.5% magnesium, 1.2-1.6% copper, balance aluminum
6063 - Silicon minimum 0.2%, max 0.6%, Iron no min, max 0.35%, Copper no min, max 0.10%, Manganese no min, max 0.10%, Magnesium min 0.45%, max 0.9%, Chromium no min, max 0.10%, Zinc no min, max 0.10%, Titanium no min, max 0.10%, Other elements no more than 0.05% each, 0.15% total, balance aluminum
-O, -T4, -T6 are describing the temper of the aluminum. All of the alloys mentioned above have heat treat processes that can increase both the Young's Modulus and Ultimate Strength of the material dramatically. -O is the annealed state. -T6 is a tempering and artificial aging process.
To take an educated guess at the alloy and temper of the material you could take a look at the percent elongation of the section that broke. For further analysis figure out the stress that the carabiner broke at (stress = load/ c.s. area) and compare it to the ultimate strength of the alloy and temper you suspect. For CYA purposes, this would all still be educated guessing, but might be interesting to look into. Time allowing of course.
That's super helpful
@@HowNOT2
At first-thank you for your testing, its makes me more confindet whe im climbing.
I have to say one thing, which drives the little sheldon in me crazy- molecule are gases or liquids like O2 oder H2O, this means that 2 or more atomes are connected and thats the only way they exits in nature( except form tec.-application)
metals on the other side are only made out of atoms!
A test idea which im realy interested in is:
How strong are knots in a passive safety application.
Im from germany and i climb in the so called "sachsische schweiz" . Instead of classic nuts or cams, we only use doubled overhand, figure eight or other knots as "safty devices" (in case of cracks at least).
Because of the super soft sandstone thats the only way allowed, besides UFOs and slings/webing.
Could you test this this out for us?😁
@@MKaden-cv3ts I don't really understand your point with molecules, but you could refresh your knowledge on types of intramolecular forces (those that hold atoms together in a molecule, as opposed to intermolecular, which act between those molecules) . Intramolec. Forces are Ionic, covalent and metallic bonds. And then see if studying metallic bonds satysfies your curiosity.
Young's modulus does not increase during any heat treatment process. If a change is measured, the quantity is negligible. Other than that, the info in this comment seems fine.
@@matijaderetic3565
My Point is covalent bonds dont exisit in metals, therefore there are no moleculs in the metal matrix, as he said in 2:05. (besides the case of corrosion-reaction, in wich it is actually possible that single moleculs can exit in cracks at the surface of materials such as metals or plastics. This is by the way the reason for the "delamination-like" corrosion of steel. and yes i know metals cant delaminate)
If you want to know more about just hock me up, i can recommend you some titles, mostly in german but i can research for english articels for you. :)
"Looks like they pulled one of the children off the assembly line to take the photo" LOL savage
😂😂😂
makes me sad... I have small hand, and small.. Ego?
“Looks like they pulled one of the children off the assembly line to make it look bigger than it actually is” 😂😂😂 I’m dead, you made me cough up my bagel 😂
The fact that it doesn't show the rating for loading with the gate open and crossloading tells me enough
I would totally love to see a bunch of Amazon climbing ropes tested.
I’ve been testing some of the cheap static lines for years. The issues I’m seeing is that the sheaths tend to bunch up some and the ropes don’t hold their shape. I’ve still got a 7mm set up I have been rappelling down an 80 foot cliff for several years now.
I will say, these are great for hammock use. Light weight, and cheap enough that I don't get upset if I lose one.
@Foxtrot Oscar 17kn of shit is a ton!
Just dont get confused and take one climbing!
@@lhmmhl1 bit they're "Great!"
Yeah these carabiners are just fine for their intended use. Anyone with a brain will know not to use them for climbing.
@@Rokmononov how is that a risk?
People get so caught up with “everything needs to be 21kn or it’s going to break blah blah blah”
I’m from the Fire Dept world where everything is rated to 40kn and we say the same thing about THAT. “If it’s not rated to 40…”, meanwhile that’s 3x the forces you could ever see on a system shock loaded with a 600lb load, even accounting for rope strength loss with knots.
All that to say, use what’s rated highly enough. 2500lbs is 5x higher than any max force your hammock is going to see, and if you think you’d break a carabiner using your hammock you should probably get on a major diet ASAP.
Great video, I actually use these generic 12kN carabiners on my 3 hammocks and I really like them in that role. Not a climbing gear by any means, but if you get them at a correspondingly low price, they can be really useful in some applications.
IMO, looking real and costing pretty much the same as the Favofit or Xinda UIAA rated 22kN biners is where they fail the hardest. If they were half the price and visibly different enough that they'd never accidentally end up on my gear loops, I'd actually want a dozen or so for non-life-supporting (or at least never-shock-loaded, like the hammock) applications. At the usual prices, though, there's no reason not to go with an off-brand-but-rated biner twice as strong, so at least I don't have to worry that I'll suddenly notice "12kN" attached to a prusik I'm using to back up a sketchy rappel.
Appreciate the one sentence horror story you threw in at the end there @@kd5nrh
I don't know what brand, but I've bought a variety of similar carabiners from Amazon and I've never done any climbing or had any desire whatsoever to do any climbing. I've been quite pleased with them. You're definitely right about anyone misrepresenting them for being for climbing, but there is definitely a market for non-climbing carabiners.
I like the Metolius Nano for non-climbing carabiners. I know that no matter what I am using it for, keychain, hammock, etc, it will be plenty strong enough, and it is built to the standard of safety and reliability it claims to be given the reputable manufacturer, rating, and seller. Once you include amazon's fulfillment and shipping costs, it isn't all that different from buying real ones from REI, and the peace of mind is worth the 2 dollars.
The problem is if you a climbing carabiner made in China. I don't want a made in China guarantee for my safety
I think something that's worth considering is: These devices are great for non-climbers, non-critical safety situations. Hanging a hammock? Go for it. Suspending your food bag up in a tree? Definitely. Even using it as an assisted lower for something like a canoe down a steep slope.
However, as a climber, I would never get these devices for fear they might mix into my main gear. Even though I'd (probably) spot the non-climbing ones and avoid their use, one of the people I bring out with me might grab one from my kit without realizing. Instead, for all of my camping stuff, I simply retire older carabiners for that (which comes with the added benefit that I can more likely use the gear I have on me during camping for more critical applications).
@@Tralin Would you trust it 50 ft off the ground in a hammock for an overnight.
@@AMC-eq3jr It's like you missed the "great for ... non-critical safety situations." part of my message and jumped straight to trying to be clever.
I often use climbing carabiners to secure water bottles and other gear. Makes a lot of sense to instead buy cheap ones at a third the price for these applications. I don’t fault them for selling these if they’re labeled as not for climbing; any experienced climber wouldn’t get them mixed up. If you aren’t experienced or trained you probably shouldn’t be rigging your own ropes.
You would be surprised how easy it can be to get them mixed up. I had some like this from a long time ago that we're not climbing rated, matte black, and they could get mixed up with the loads of climbing gear in my basement. If you accidentally grab the wrong one as you are packing for a trip, it could be deadly. I'm throwing away any that I find. Anything that needs a carabiner deserves full strength if you climb or rig anything
The way I see it I would just use proper climbing ones to carry your bottles or what ever as you can use it for climbing if you need it or a back up. Just my thought anyway.
Until someone buys their first harness, biner and atc and heads to their gym. Not everyone who climbs is experienced, and not everyone who is inexperienced find the right information sources. Its fine if they are 17kn, but they should still be embossed with not for climbing, and have absolutely no hint in their advertising that they can be used that way.
$12 to ensure that your chances of making a life threatening mistake are zero instead of close to zero seems like a fair trade to me
@@stephenchurch1784 It's never just one carabiner. Especially when you can use more of them in more places that are not safety critical you're more likely to get more increasing overal cost. And it's even cheaper not to climb. But to each their own.
They rate them at 12kN because they can't keep a consistent "quality", 12 is probably the minimum tested by them.
or they did some quick math and never even tested the carabiners. math said around 16 so they felt safe claiming 12 without any testing. sketchy no matter how they chose the number
It is not uncommon to just rate stuff at some "normal" rating. If you find find to manufacturers with the exact same rating this is what happened 99% of the time
by going for 12kN they are not for climbing, making it easier for the manufacturer to blame misuse for any injury.
Theo one I bought says they've rated them around 15 to 19kn. So to be safe they rate it under.
For sure they say it's not meant for climbing but it should be unmissable in the title or 1st image.
I bought it for camping, as I I'm professionally trained for work at height.
I have a 5KN carabiners
Yes please test the Amazon rope that they keep sending me emails to buy lol...I did end up buying a 10.5mm static from Amazon for 15$...The price was just too good to at least buy and use for yard work if I needed it...I found out why it was 15$...The rope length was 35 feet, not 35 meters. It smelled like cancer. And they sheath is going to pull off of it the second you would try to use something like an ascender on it lol...A PSA style video on this junk would be great
BetaClimbers has just done this. Not the break testing but he "reviews" it and breaks down the difference.
@@AstronomyWales Yeah I watched the one where he did the ones that come with the cheap carabiners on the end of the rope..This one I'm talking looks just like a climbing rope, says it's CHNA certified (not even sure if that's a real thing) and is wrapped with a nice velcro enclosure with the rope diameter and a person climbing painted on it..So it would be shitty if it didn't hold up trying to be a climbing rope...never-ending it being static to begin with...I'm sure it's fine to have and only use to rappel out of a window in a fire emergency, but that's about all the higher I would trust it
The one point that was kind of glossed over is the importance of good quality control. Everything from tracking manufacturing defects, to sampling plans, to tracking reports of defects, to issuing recalls are critical to ensure a product is safe and effective.
Yes, these specific crabs performed above their rating, but how likely would they spot a defective product during production? What is the probability of one of these carabiners having a critical defect? Is there a rate of unacceptable product leaving the facility before they stop production or issue a recall? Or would they just change the branding and keep pushing out product?
For example, the one crab pulled it's wire gate straight. This indicated the failure is due to the crack propagating from the wire attachment hole and not where we typically see it, an indication of localized stress concentration in an unusual spot. This shows there's likely insufficient manufacturing controls.
The other thing that affects price is design engineering time. Buying these essentially rewards the copycats, and punishes the inventors stifling innovation.
exactly...
Could be a few reasons why...1) The quality of the aluminum they get (there are companies claiming certain metal grades but are not). 2) skipping the heat treatment process and just using the base material. 3) What type of process used to make them. I guessing they are not hot forged, or stamped or milled out of one block of aluminum (which each process can give a metal certain characteristics)...My guess is they either use cast aluminum to make them (one of the cheapest, quickest and potentially weakest processes to use because it's easy to get air pockets in the metal and make it brittle. Companies use this process because you don't need metal bending equipment or metal milling equipment. You just make one mold of the shape you want and pour liquid metal into it. So you might get a few that hold 15kN and one that holds 9 kN) Or the wire gate is made from a cheaper metal.
Lack of forging was my thought as well. These are probably machined or cast. I have a bit of trouble believing they would have been as strong as they are if cast, but with die casting and post heat treatment perhaps.
Please do the cheapest Amazon rope lol
My favorite part of videos about sketchy Amazon products is trying to read the SEO-gibberish-riddled descriptions word for word with a straight face. Project Farm and Donut Media have some gems too.
As an arborists we use them to zip line small limbs to the ground, each 23kn sling runner has a "junk" carabiner. we have lots of them in the tree or bucket truck to get limbs down without having the used ones sent back up.
Going through these old videos compared to the newer ones, really impressed with how your production quality and sound quality has improved tremendously since back then. Don't worry, the old videos are still very watchable, just that your experience really shows.
If it comes from Amazon I aint trusting my life to it. Even as a cheap university student deep in debt I'd prefer to keep my limbs and spine intact for a couple dollars more.
Is it just me or does sound go out at 16:50?
Or do they always do this?
Sort of weird. I wanted to search the comments for this but UA-cam removed the comment search function.
Yep same for me
It does
thanks for testing these. I have a few of these - i don't climb and would not use them for anything safety critical. I use them for hanging weights from a weight belt for exercising. Good to know their plenty strong for the applications i use them for. They appear good quality and strong for non ciritical applications
This was very entertaining Ryan. Never would I ever use an amazon product for life safety, but I appreciate this video. There are so many new climbers/slackers who may not know that these are not actually safe to use!
ps: I really hope you send those back and get your money back.
I've got a bunch of these. Thanks for testing them! I will be sleeping in my hammock in peace.
I bought some wire gates and auto lockers like those on amazon. I really like them for my Key chain and I like them way better than the silver hardware store carabiners for light loads like gym pulley attachments.
as long as they don't infiltrate the important biners
I actually just picked up a bunch of BD miniwires for keychains, bear hangs, hammocks, etc after I found a keychain biner in my climbing bag. I don’t want to chance grabbing the wrong thing by mistake.
I bought these for general use and ended up using them on the leg straps I make for sailing PFDs (Mustang vests). The Mustang company sells leg straps (~$100) - to keep the inflated vest from just lifting up around your neck in the water. They're attached with only ABS plastic clips - which seem pointlessly weak. The main purpose of leg straps is to keep the life vest in a better position in the rare event you go into the water. These vests have Spectra or metal D-rings for attaching safety lines to (Jack lines) so you don't get washed overboard.
My thinking was 1" webbing straps that have a sewn loop (11 bar stitches) on one end, carabinered to the belt webbing of the PFD, then run under the crotch, through the back loop on the PFD, then back under the crotch to carabiner the other waist strap. This side has a double knot loop so it's adjustable.
I figured that these 12kN carabiners should be strong enough. Your weight would be distributed if you were lifted straight up by three points of attachment. If you were lifted by the D-rings less than half your weight would be held by the three leg strap attachments.
My logic is that if I was in the water in a serious rescue situation I could quickly clip or tie into the D-Rings (not the leg straps) into whatever a helicopter or rescue vessel threw to me and with no possibility of me falling out of the whole harness PFD - quickly pull me to safety and be ready to help someone else. (I've given them to friends - but I wouldn't assume the liability of selling them. )
I really appreciate your video and testing. I guess it's full speed ahead for my straps. (Two of these carabiners cost about $12, the webbing costs about $6-8, it takes only few minutes to sew the single loop - I give them to my sailor friends. Saves them $100, while providing an additional safety margin. ) And if these carabiners in my straps are ever used to lift a sailor's weight it would be one time event.
I also use them on my hammocks (200 lbs max dead weight pull so ~900kN. Hammocks are easy. A standard 30 degree hang is your weight on each line. And I follow the hammock safety rule of don't hang higher than you can drop on your butt.
One thing I would add is that many carabiners (even climbing ones) have components that corrode quickly in salt water. There's a lot of info (and debate) on the carabiners used on sea kayaking tow ropes and tethers used in salt water. I don't doubt that some of the SS components (the little spring for an aluminum gate carabiner) will corrode quickly. I bought a little SS folding knife just before a 5 day course last fall and it was starting to rust by the end. It lived in my PFD so got wet during rescues.
Many kayak towing systems use climbing rated carabiners despite the fact that the loads are very low. In addition, those with a notch can easily catch on smaller deck lines, which makes them more of a hazard in use.
However, as others have said, for many applications something like this would work fine. In others, it would be dangerous. I would also be very interested in seeing the open gate load capacity.
Thanks a lot for this vid and all your orhers. I don't climb but I bought a load of these to help strap things down on our car roof, and deemed 12kn more than enough, so it's great to see them perform better.
I would definitly watch an hour long episode about rope tests...
or several episodes... gotta keep that algorythm happy!!
Same. Would like to see static and dynamic rope tests along with different sling materials and widths. Also knots, no knots, hitches etc.
I discovered your channel off the pooping video and I'm hooked haha. This is amazing.
@15:45 - it says something about my HS latin teacher that my first though at hearing "BONUS!" was "-aa, -uum". my HS latin class was 20 years ago.
Thanks for making this video! Good reference material for all the people thinking they can cheap out. These misleading comments and video reviews around that stuff are dangerous!
I love love love my metolius FS II mini carabiners (the black one at the end of the video) for trad climbing! They weigh nothing, rack beautifully on even a small harness, and have taken a beating for the past few years without showing much wear. I also use them frequently to teach friends who are getting into climbing about climbing gear strength ratings. It is fun to hold them next to my gigantic rappelling locker and show that it is indeed stronger in most orientations. Some folks say that they are too small to comfortable clip while trad climbing, but I find the small size is just right for "one-handed use."
I like small ones when i can use them. But I have some big ones for my main uses and then a lot of normal sizes.
7 series aluminum has a tighter grain structure and would act similarly to a 6 series t6. Basically they skip the heat treat process most likely for less manufacturing process, but still have the toughness of the 7 series
I use CAMP Nano 22s for accessories like water bottles and flashlights. I figure I need something to clip those with anyway, I might as well have a spare life-safety rated carabiner in case of emergency. I've also got them on some alpine draws, though the small gate can be a bit annoying to clip in to so I have a normal sized carabiner on the other side (CAMP Photon usually).
The simple reason that these break at a lower stress is because of the manufacturing process. A simple formula relating to Pi and Young’s Modulus shows how the Yield stress of a material is proportional to the diameter (C) of any external defects or 2x this length (2C) for internal inclusions.
Therefore during a cheaper manufacturing process the inclusions within the metal will have a larger diameter (due to factors such as turbulence in pouring molten metal, type of cast used, solidification time/pattern, use of a riser, etc etc). This consequently reduces the yield stress of the metal and therefore it breaks more easily.
That is why metals with identical reference codes can act differently to one another once processed.
These 'biners are (as the Amazon title suggested) for camping, like clipping your hammock to your suspension system. And for that they work just fine, and for half the price of climbing 'biners that are a lot stronger than what I need.
So I rate them "super good enough (for hammock camping)". 🤣
Second time watching this on different dates, and enjoyed it again. Probably my favorite one of your videos.
Thanks for this.. This channel is the best! Keep up the good work.
This video was super interesting. I am not in favor of purchasing less than reputable gear that you're putting your life on the line for, but I think I'd anything, this shines some light on companies that charge up the wazoo for gear.
Also, I would LOVE to see a rope test video, showing the Amazon ropes.
The Amazon ropes are good for hauling. I bought one just for the hell of it and did a handful of short rappels, it did the job but I wouldn't use them as a lifeline at height. Oh! I also bought an Edelweiss Canyon Prime rope from Amazon that is actually legit.
If a worst case lead fall is around 4kN, is there a meaningful difference between an 18kN carabiner and a 21kN one? Or is the concern more about durability and that the cheaper ones may not stand up as well after abuse?
Idea for you guys if you haven't done it. Show all the loading on the ropes during climbing falls. Ie taking a lead fall with soft and hard catches on different load factors. Record anchor loading, belayer loading and climber tie in point loading. I'd also love to see typical anchor loadings too vs angle (I personally try to keep below 60 degrees). This would be great info for the climbing community.
I'd love to see some load tests for Aerial Silks! My wife is all about it and wants a backyard rig. The many falls and flips have got to generate a decent amount of force.
I'll definitely do some Aerial videos this year
@@HowNOT2 we would love to see you do an Aerial silks routine!
I doubt you could even pull a 1kn fall on silks.
Best hypothesis I have: the gate is the weak point of every cheap carabiner. In every test, what seams to break first is wheter the gate hook or the gate itself.
I don't think the heat treatment or aluminium quality is the cause here, the way they break (they snap dry) suggest a heat treatment. I'd say the geometry of the gate hook and/or the quality of the steel the gates are made out of could be the cause of the lower rating. I'm curious Ryan, how opening the gates feels compared to real climbing carabiners?
the shapes of noses seem the same since they basically use the same designs as any carabiner and the gates open and feel the same.
I don’t get why these are sketchy? They state the rate load 12kN, the break test confirms it exceeds that. They state specifically they are not for climbing. There are many uses for these for non-climbing, for example I use them for spearfishing float lines. They work great. Great video, just not sure why it was so negative towards these.
Cool idea. I've wondered about that. When climbing, most of the time I worry a lot more about human error than equipment failure.
16:30 if you want to buy climbing gear from amazon, make sure it dont specify that its NOT for climbing...
Also that yoga thing with 2 of these carabiners is perfectly safe, its not high up and your more likely to get choked than you are producing a force above 12kN. How far do you have to drop to get that kind of force? it was a picture of someone inside hanging from the ceiling, pretty limited how far you could drop
The yoga thing is misleading as well, il looks a lot like aerial silk where drops are a skill.
Could you test old ropes? Specially after the had som hard wipes from a rope jump for example. Would be super interesting for me!
I'm pretty sure they did a break on some 40 year old caving pit rope
Is it just me, or is the audio missing from 16:50?
Man this video was pure gold from comedy to educational. You got my support bro!👍👍👍🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Looking at the difference with the Camp carabiner, it appears that there might be a significant difference with cross-sectional shape that is somewhat subtle. There's a ridge along the outside of it in addition to the inside whereas the Amazon ones only have the inner (upper case I instead of upper case T). It may not seem like much, but especially with how they failed, it seems that the amount of torque it can withstand is by far the limiting factor, and the ridge on the outside makes a significant difference.
Note, the Metolius also had this ridge. It's probably more difficult to make these shapes as they have a concave portion while the Amazon ones can get away with convex designs
Love your content. I was a bit disappointed in this vid because I was hoping to see you test the crosloading and open gate strength of these. For me having no idea what those ratings are is the biggest reason not to use them. I have considered paring one of these with a cam that is also only rated for 12 KN but thought better of it when the idea that the strength could drop down to under 7KN if it ends up crosloaded in a fall. I kinda hate to see you buy more of these but I would certainly tune in for those tests.
Since they look so close to real ones, could they be rebranded QC failed names brand UIAA ones? Aslo i think they are 50% over rating because the QC is off on them so some might be higher and some are lower.
By the way, just saw today in a garden someone having a home made swing set. The seat is held with ropes (I presume static ones). The ropes are connected to the frame via a cheap carabiners - I recognized them as they are sold in local shops, very similar to amazon ones.
The structure is: Frame (wood), ring bolt to the wood, carabiner connected to the ring, ropes and seat.
Would it be possible to test cheap carabiners whether they are able to hold safely those seats for kids and adults alike? (from your tests I would say they may be sketchy)
I have been quite curious on an Amazon product because I've used these before in non-life support situations and it is a Swing Swivel, 30KN Safety Rotational Device. In my opinion they are a hell of a lot smoother that the similar variations from petizl and notch and dmm i believe. I have always wondered if they are actually properly rated
Thanks a lot for the video! I bought these carabiners for hanging tools on a rope access work and wanted to know their real strength.
I just bought a discontinued Black Diamond oval (hooked nose, not keylock). I noticed it rates only 18kn closed gate, 6kn open gate, and 7 kn cross loaded. Perhaps these relatively low numbers are why it was discontinued, but I feel fine using it sparingly, since it's mainly for racking nuts anyway.
Weirdly, you can get an oval biner certified at only 18kn for climbing, but it has to be stronger if it's D shaped.
@@tomtom4405 fascinating. Thanks for sharing
You need polycarbonate covered with stoneguard to catch the flying pieces without scratching. The soft stoneguard is surprisingly good.
But nice they did beeak above the rating. But yes gravity + weight is a great force multiplier.
I'm glad I stumbled upon this as I did because for my uses these seem to be absolutely perfect. I've been using my quickdraw biners for camping but sometimes I want to climb and camp and need the draws. The use case for these biners would be hanging up my hammock, hanging from my mobile hangboard and using it to connect weights to my no-hang device. All those usecases put hardly 1kN of load on the biners, let alone 12kN and when I can get 6 of these for 13 bucks (basically $2 a pop) it's really a no-brainer.
I don't have any wiregate biners anyway, but I'm still going to put some yellow tape around these just in case I'd ever forget.
Out here doing gods work, thanks Ryan
I like them for carrying keys and tying down loads in my truck bed. Usually the gate on "keychain" carabiners are on a spring that gets weak and is unreliable for staying clipped. They of course are no good for tying down loads because they are too weak.
In quality assurance, it is usual to measure repeatability (ie. multiple samples on the same test system/tester), and reproducibility (ie. different batches over long term, different testers/test equipment). This is often done in Tier I automotive industry with 3 different testers and 10 non-destructive testing samples. As you do destructive testing, thid would require 30 test samples. From this, we can calculate the standard deviation statistic, and estimate the statistics for the whole population that was manufactured.
For the Amazon specials, they may have a high variability in their manufacturing process, so they derate the rating to allow for this uncontrolled variability.
Nice video. Yes I subscribed. Please test the Amazon off brand rope. I’d be curious at the 8mm and 10mm china “climbing” rope. Thx
Unijoy sounds like a unisex bedroom toy
This was really useful so see and learn from.
Can you breaktest some knots used in climbing?
Dubble 8 knot, bowline, dubble bowline (with and without stopper knot)
I subscribed, hope to learn a lot more 😃👍🏼
the stopped in the double bowline is to stop it untying during cyclic loading, it doesn't contribute to the strength.
My guess for why they are breaking lower is less material at the strongback of the bend where most of them are shearing, mixed with a softer steel clip that bends and stretches further allowing a feed back onto the strongback of the carabiner. Thus, the further the clip bends and stretches, the more torsion on the strongback, hence a lower break force.
At face value rating 50% higher than the stamped rating seems like a good thing, but it really shows how much of a difference in quality control there is. I would wage that if these go really high in quality randomly they could also go the opposite direction too.
They normally should go higher then what they are rated for
Well, if you're engineering for a safety factor of 2, there's nothing wrong with that.
Unless you want a chair that'll explode once you reach 1lb over the "rated" load.
I would definitely like to see some Amazon "climbing rope" tests!
12 kN or 1200 kg x 2 is definitely enough for "aerial yoga" 4:38
I do training on gymnastic rings indoors when weather are extreeme outside. So my rings are attached to triangle climbing carabines that rated 45kn, use them becauce need flat space to attach ring belts. O.k. but thing is I want to say is that those carabines are attachet to concrete sealing with 12mm anchors, that rated only to hold 100kg, and I think it is horizontally, mine are vertically. So in short I'm hangind on 2x 100kg rated anchors with my head down and doing all crazzy stuf with rings already 2 years with no problem at all, and don't think it ever will come off. My weight is 85kg-90kg. So yeah 2400kg is enough even for grown gorilla male doing aeiral yoga, dude! Even car weight of volkswagen golf 2015 is 3126 lbs it is 1417.93 kilograms so car can do yoga too hanging on two amazon carabines :)
I use them for my hammock and to hang up my training equipment. They're also good to hang your shoes on your belt. For that purpose I would say they provide a good bang for your buck, can't deny that
Well, i got a titanium carabiner. EN and UIAA tested 24KN. Still interested in how it's going to behave in comparison with aluminium brothers
I just subscribed for the third time... that’s a thing right?
Your bad gear break tests are funny as fu...errrr k?
Any news on the Beal escape?
As far as good amazon gear to test, check out Xinda, and Camnal.
They seem to be legit Chinese climbing gear companies and it’s always nice to be surprised.
There’s a tonne of ambiguous legalese descriptions for sub 9mm ropes on amazon that are blatantly marketed at budget tight newcomers, but Xinda are priced like Petzl and Camnal are priced like budget used black diamond gear, never tried the Xinda gear.
Lastly, read an old article on using pulley wheels at top rope anchor to offset weight differences and rope tension, there was some Veeerrrrry heated back and forth both with good points about pros and cons, figure this might make for an interesting topic to cover?
As always, love your videos! Please keep making them funny like this, you’re great at polite mockery, although I miss the slow mo footage, something very cathartic about watching those fractures grow ^_^
The jokes in this episode are way too funny. Made my day after a long workday.
I believe they're rated so low because of lacking QC.
Some (batch) of them might barely scratch 12kN, while others are as strong as you found them.
The Orange one (just) held 13.8kN.
Some people will climb with low quality gear no matter what you tell them.
Wether it's just old, heavily used, damaged or faulty from the factory.
Other people might just use these for clipping stuff to their Backpacks.
I'm actually impressed that they undersell rather than outright lie about their performance.
So as long as there's no lie used to sell these, im all live and let live. Or climb and let climb?
Great video... What about testing plastic carabiners speciali those selled in army or military surplus.
Wondering why plastic ?
Well for hammok camping are useful, specially if rain falls you want to have the less metal as posible to prevent lighting bolt attraction.
"It's like ASMR, but for destroying the planet" XXXD
8:50 If they said "we're excited about this" 20 times, it could as well be a Blizzard ad.
the hammock vs monopod thing at 7:25 is actually wrong. I did the math when making my hammock suspensions, and if your hammock lines are rigged shallower than 45°, each line is actually under *more* tension than the weight of the person in the hammock. I would be *much* less concerned about the monopod thing, or even the aerial silks earlier, provided they didn't do any drops that would shock load the carabiner.
I tried to rig my hammock with 500lb dyneema string and I ended up on the ground pretty quick, and I weigh 180lb. Granted that is partially because I rigged the string using knots instead of proper spliced loops, and one of my knots slid and then snapped. I feel much safer with my 1600lb amsteel!
I recently got to see my family's horses for the first time since before quarantine, and we had some new lead ropes for them. As I've recently fallen down this channel's rabbit hole (literally with the caving episode -- more of that please!), I naturally thought "I wonder what this would do on the snap machine". It's a standard "Poly Lead Rope with Bolt Snap". Seems to be a sheath+core construction similar to a climbing rope, wondering if it's essentially just a super thick climbing rope (it's 0.75 inch thickness, or just about 19mm)
I use these. But not for climbing. I use them to hang tools or transport my backpack from one height to another at work. And they work. For everything else I would only use real climbing carabiners.
As a non-climber that has used these types of carabiners for years for my keys, I can say me experience is that they all have withstood the foreces of whatever I snag my keys on vs my belt loops and not failed. Was the belt loops that have failed 1--% of the time.
So they're actually pretty darn good! There is a space for in between a Keychain and a 22kn biner, I'd buy a few if the price point was worth it.
The sound of your machine reminds me of the Terminator crawling around before he gets destroyed!! LOL
I will say I used to use these for my hammock, for normal hammock use at like 3' AGL max. Eventually I decided Metolius FS stands for "full of s___" referring to the "for climbing only" marking, and started using the minis for the hammock. They haven't exploded yet.
All in all, most of the improvement comes from Metolius doing a better job of deburring the "beak" that engages the wiregate, so it doesn't snag my stuff.
I mean, I don't know what shock load my hammock is rated for, but I really wouldn't expect even a 12kN biner to be the weak point.
I remembered i had a caribiner hanging around the house while watching this video. GORUCK labelled, Omega USA, and rated for 31kn closed. Pretty happy with my chosen bag 'biner for holding gloves and stuff, if need be it's certainly super good enough! Thanks.
If I got something for you to break test, how do I go about sending it to you?
Send me an email. ryan@slackline.com
Was pretty curious about the open gate and cross loading strength, considering they don't even mention it. Cool video regardless
This was definitely an ad for them for me, but I'm using them with 550 cord for tiedowns and ridgelines and stuff like that
Can you also test Amazon pulleys and tackle blocks, climbing pulleys and swing pulleys.
I like when he dramatically throws the paper, i can picture it gently fluttering to the ground
What are the rope grab looking devices on the wall directly behind you on the bottom? Looks like there’s 4 of them. Thanks
linegrips. For highline webbing. Linegrip.com
I'm glad UA-cam placed your video in my list. I just bought 2 of these for camping but I wasn't sure if they're really that strong. Now I know they are that's cool.
Also I'm trained for work at height so no worries I know what's good for climbing or not. :)
Wow, my corroded and munter-worn crabs should be fine for a little while yet...
I like the carabiners on the load tester - how d’you load test those? 🤷♂️
If you use this stuff for dog leash, they are pretty fine. I honestly have more problems with material carabiners when I climb. I took them all from my harness and use fully certified smaller screw-carabiners, they are about 50 grams. Like this I always have 2 or 3 reliable spare carabiners with me in case I drop one.
Think you could figure out a way to do cyclic loading tests? Maybe an arduino controlling the hydraulic ram based on tension from the dyno. Would be slower and a general pain in the ass, but might show more of the difference between these and proper climbing biners.
Great test.
Do climbing ropes and slings age? I climbed in the 90s. My gear has been in the cupboard since then. Is it safe to give to someone else for climbing?
No
Ben's answer is a bit short and ambiguous: "No, it is not safe to give it to someone for climbing, Yes, they age." :-) Great to practice knots, how to handle gear etc on the ground at home, though.
What do you think about GMclimbing carabiner?
UniJoy - the joy of using them once.
😂😂
According to OSHA 1926.502(d)(3) Dee-rings and snaphooks shall have a minimum tensile strength of 5,000 pounds (22.2 kN).
I always use climbing carabiners for anything, it just a little more expensive but waaaay more useful.
They may actually be discards or made in the same factory like many other gray market products.
I don’t think that is true because they are smaller then any climbing carabiner on the market.
@@briancherry8337 not smaller than the Edelrid 19g! 😂
((But yes, that's shaped totally different))
Honestly, From description alone (haven't watched everything yet), I would have no issues using these for hammocks or 2 of them for aerial yoga, Even swinging benches, though I'd be sceptical. Should be plenty strong in theory.
Will update once I finish video.
Update: Looks fine for NON CLIMBING APPLICATIONS. I'd use them on backpacks and hammocks, walking my dog, or even an emergency halter fix for my horse, or maybe a neckrope clasp.
Another fantastic video!
I’m like SO CURIOUS though about the Camp 22s!
I use them myself yet their strength stats appear to break the laws of physics
I’d happily throw $100 your way to break test them
Or more! You decide
The edelrid 19g biners are even crazier
@@GavynPendleton I use some of those, too small for many clove hitches or wearing winter gloves, but they have their place!
@@tomtom4405 yea I bought two of the draws to see how they'd work. The answer is not very well. They are good enough for clipping nuts or for clipping my backpack to the anchor.