C4 vs Ultralights: Testing Climbing Cams AT BLACK DIAMOND'S LAB
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- Опубліковано 14 жов 2022
- We drop-tested and slow-pulled old cams donated by Timothy Neidmeyer, Bobby Hutton and Eric Nies. The ultralights were purchased in 2017 and were in a house fire where they got smoke and water damage which is why they are all rusty. The ultralights are 25% lighter than the latest C4s and one weight-saving feature is 12 braid Dyneema as the stem instead of a steel cable. I emailed Black Diamond to see if I could get any of their engineers to help us understand this unique use of Dyneema better and they let me and / mowgli_adventures_slc visit the lab and talk to Jeremy Steck and Alex Baker who helped developed this cam.
They all broke above MBS, even the old ones.
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Very cool of them to invite you in and explain their development process
Transparency with the community. Definitely is a wonderful thing.
Every time you break test old cams, I love my rack even more, especially the few old Camalots I'm still rockin'.
As a mechanical engineer working in Blackfoot Idaho, I’m incredibly glad to know that I’m not the only engineer who messes with and tests his gear. Just built some composite QuickDraw dogbones and then pulled them apart in my old colleges tensile tester. The data was good enough that I’m trying to convince a gym to let me whip on one (with a backup) and film it so I can apply for a job at BD. It would be wild if one of these guys in the video could be my supervisor someday!!!
Dude, idc who ends up investing in you, if you keep believing in yourself and keep the attitude you have, you will be a great success. Your comment shows me someone who is very passionate and it honestly was inspiring to read. Keep being you Mr. Fission
From one engineer to another, be careful with those composites, they're finicky material and watch for that UV effect
@@austinlevi3452 thank you! I will! And good luck in your endeavors.
@@trashpanda9433 good feedback, thanks!
Also think of some dent/notch resistant coating, as you probably know, fatigue life of composites decreases rapidly if the matrix is dented, and dangling against the rock is not ideal
It's cool that black diamond invites you. It shows mutual respect and the same ultimate goal: Giving climbers reliable gear and information, so that they can make informed decisions.
I trust manufacturers a lot more when they are totally open to stuff like this. Good for them!
This was a fantastic episode! And the 1st time in the history of the channel you have met with a team at a gear company HQ. That makes for great content. Hopefully, other gear manufactures will allow the same thing to happen.
Propaganda. Learn to recognize it.
@@DieselRamcharger marketing* but I mean it's not a bad thing if they actually test the shit and talk about factual matters.
@@TarikVann Marketing IS propaganda. How can you trust their "science" when its OBVIOUS they have particular corporate interest at heart. How can you believe anything they say? I cant. But its your life, hang it wherever you want. All i learned from watching this is Black Diamond had a great product, and over time it has gotten weaker and weaker in the name of being lighter and lighter. Bringing it closer to its design limit {less overbuilt / reduced safety margin} in order to push sales. Thats what YOU want from a company that produces life saving fall arrestors? Yeah, me either. This is Propaganda.
@@DieselRamcharger it is not propaganda because they do not have a doctrine or cause. They most likely like their jobs and want to say good things about what they do BUT they also have their own moral codes and the scientific empirical system to back them up.
If you think they make things lighter to push sales then you don't really understand rock climbing and the fringes of the sport. Everything is a trade off, they are making a product that meets the demand and ultimately still has easily 4:1 or greater safety ratio. I have no problem with a company making innovative well built strenuously tested safety products that just happen to be lighter. Get used to science evolving and products getting better and use your brain to decide if it's right for you and if they are actually risky realistically.
The greatest threat to you climbing is still your placement of gear, by far.
As an engineer, I value highly the non-rigid thinking of our test lab. I couldn't come up with even half of the wild ways they invent to test the stuff we make,
This episode would have been super good enough with just the discussion in the lab with the engineers ! Very cool to nerd out by proxy.
"Big Ass Bend Radius" that's the technical term of course
That episode was awesome! Very informative! So cool of BD inviting you for a talk!
As a machinist, I get the back and forth with everyone 🤣. CAD and real life are not the same things. That said kudos to Black Diamond for letting you break stuff.
I love when people are passionate nerds about stuff, I know zero about climbing and I was glued to my seat.
As an engineer that has to do a lot of work with testing, I can guarantee you that QA has some crazy requirements to make sure that everything works properly. I have to submit all the data I generate no matter what test I run and even if what I am doing is some crazy experiment that has no relevance to what goes to production
Good on BD for letting you into their testing space! Too bad others haven't done this. I'll trust BD more in the future now. Thanks for the fantastic footage!
Very great to see BD inviting you to chat about gear. Big Companies definitely take notice. Climbers are getting educated!
Been watching loads of these videos……I don’t even climb🤣
I really liked this. A nice test, followed with a chit-chat with two technical nerds. It made the picture complete. Well done.
Great video guys and thank you Black Diamond.
Kudos to BD for inviting you into their lab. Very cool. Thanks to all involved.
Super cool to here about the design, prototype and test process at bd. Along with great testing! Such a great video. Thank you!
I’m not a climber, or slack line person, or an engineer. I’m just enjoying seeing you guys breaking equipment that I read about as a young teenager before I realized that I had no balance, and falling hurts, and I don’t bounce!!! Lol keep up the great work!
Really cool having the interview along with the testing
engineers talking about technical detials, production and costs and being so relaxed, this is so great to see. most companies would have sent some scummy manager for an interview
The black diamond interview was amazing!
This is so cool episode. Big thanks to the BD team.
Freakin awesome episode(?)!
Really cool of them to let you come nerd out in their shop. Thanks for the sweet entertainment.
Really cool episode.
I would like if the mbs of the stuff broken is shown, as it varies a lot between cams.
The interview with BD was awesome. Good interview Ryan!
I love watching these with all of my cams like the original WC friends and the old Camelots I use it just makes me want to hold on to them even more
You guys are doing very important work… Keep at it!
I love this content. Ryan, you're such a skilled communicator, charismatic and funny. I really enjoy what you're doing here!
I used my first umbrella placement this year!
Ran out of the right size cams/large enough nuts and decided to sketchily move one up with me... for about 8m.
Then I ran out of crack just below an awkward move (not the crux it turns out). No hexes on me. No big nuts.
In a flash of inspiration I remembered "you can place cams passively!"
Made the move while watching the cam skittering about in its little nest.
Super good enough. 👌
one thing to note in your graph at 19:08, the yield strength of the cam was actually 13 KN, and the ultimate strength was the ~14 KN reported. After 13 KN the material that was being stressed the most would be permanently altered, ie: if you generated 13.5 KN and it didnt break, its not the same as it was before and you probably would never want to use it again. but of course youd never know that without having seen the stress/strain graph, and of course your organs would probably be a bit liquidly if you ever made that much force anyway.
This brings up a good point, but I saw a video from another rock climber and the biggest force he could generate on a fall (about 80 feet tall on a actual belay) was around 3.5-4 kn so I’d be tough to break one actually climbing
@@grahambowyer5641 oh yeah I totally agree, 4 kN is a HUGE fall. Your body is going to break before you make 13 kN anyway.
the term "plenty strong enough" is very appropriate
@@w0ffleir0npr0ducti0n The human body can survive at least 60G (as determined by actual crash tests) if evenly distributed through a harness. (The data came from a crash of an instrumented F1 car that ran into a concrete wall during a race - the driver walked away but was badly bruised).
That view has to be mentioned , god damn that was beautiful in the intro
I know it's hard to get a perfectly inflexible crack for drop testing but I do wonder how much the flexing of bolts holding the crack impacts the results. I might think that it slightly increases the force because it "smooths" out the snap force compared to an actual crack setup which wouldn't move.
Depending on the rock it may actually give more than this rig. Would be super interesting to see testing on this.
@@kaimcguire5086 I'd be surprised if it did unless it's sandstone. I have a cider press with a 1.125 inch steel screw, and I get at least some angular deflection of the screw when it's more than about 9" from the nut, just using muscle power and a maybe 16" handle. When I saw the super long, load bearing all thread in the set up I was kind of skeptical. Still a valuable test though. BD makes solid gear, and their guys aren't just going by the numbers, they know WHY they do what they do, which is something you can't say for a lot of smaller, less scientific and/or well funded manufacturers. As GI Joe says: "Knowing is half the battle".
I don't climb, but I love engineering. The work that goes into these things is impressive, and it's equally impressive that the company is open about sharing a bit of their development and testing process with you. It's not easy to design a product that is so predictable in its performance, but that's a requirement if the efficiency in terms of strength/weight has to be high, with a reasonable but not giant safety margin. I'm also realizing why the rescue gear that fire and wildland guys use is so overbuilt. It's because they need things to be a bit more rugged, and to last a bit longer, and to carry those heavier loads.
Very cool to see the fail weight of these. Also, way cool to have Bobby pop up randomly in my feed! Such a good dude!
One of the major differences between your testing and say black diamond using an Instron, is your test is a sudden shock load versus a gradual build up loading.
Loved this conversation!
Thanks! And I agree with Bob, you shouldn't have broke that cam.
I still have several of those if the channel wants a museum piece
@@Sanderbreur don't send it to them! They'll just break it 😂
This episode was indeed fantastic
I have one of those older BD 3.5” cams! It’s one of my favorites. And I also have quite a few of those older “stem” style bd cams! There bomber dude!
Its veen thirty yrs since i climed more then stairs but your channel is making look into it again small walls and boulders
14:41 is the best trad gear footage in existence.
I.. almost can’t believe that view. So incredibly beautiful, I must go there
Genuinly like my larger c4's, once I sanded the paint of the contact points on the lobes, smaller sizes I go with the dragons because of the grip and extendable slings, the bend radius is as far as i know is also why dmm have the sling in the stem the way they do, instead of having a thumb loop like BD,
What awesome people, jobs, and products. That sounds like a lot of fun stress working on a typically for pleasure device that requires life saving technology!
My old 1st gen Chouinard #1 Camalot (like the one destroyed) has been retired to the cracks of my stone fireplace for the last 25 years where it currently supports a miniature mountaineer abseiling. Don't think I could ever actually bring myself to destroy it.
this might be the best episode ever. and there are no episodes that aren't great.
So cool of black diamond!
In my experience in oilfield equipment manufacturing, 95% of the engineers, had never turned a wrench, swung a hammer, or welded a single linear inch.
It was very difficult to trust some of them, even knowing that the numbers were correct, practical research and testing always gave us results that those of us in the shop could trust.
While testing pressure vessels is not risking a significant fall.... Standing next to 1000 gallons of water @ 750 psi, definitely raises the pucker factor.
Feeling pretty good about my pre c4 Camalots right now
I love this channel and I don't even climb, I do rope access work, so it's somewhat adjacent but now I want to start climbing haha.
The title, thumbnail is absolutely incomprehensible to me
I run a powderbed metal printer at work and now you've got me thinking about slipping in some Ti cam lobes if I ever go back to it that metal. Would be sweet.
Purchase Black Diamond C4 cams at our new store! hownot2.store/c4s
I miss breaking things in that lab from 99-02. BD QA Lab is one of BD's largest consumers, if that tells you anything about how serious they take ppe design and production.
14.52kn is a lot of force, most large large falls top at 3.5-4kn so these are strong asf
I have a few old Chouinard cams that were the very first year of production. Loose tubes around the cables. They went with the molded tubes later on. Yes, they have been retired.
Thanks for your sharing
dope. I end up buying black diamond stuff all the time. wind gloves. two pairs of bd skis. an axe. running micro spikes. shadow climbing shoes. they make some niche stuff
Very nice video ; first time viewer you remind me of Jennie's Garage for some reason and that's a compliment !
Good stuff dude
Thanks!
I think you should weld on a diagonal I-beam from the lower horisontal beam to support the rock face so it doesn’t pinch. Normally in nature the crack never closes, it either stays static or gets wider as you put force on the cam.
I love how the drop tower has climbing holds instead of a normal ladder.
22:20 honestly,... I’d still take that #5, girth hitch a dynema sling around the head (where the lobes attach) and whip on it, it’d be a bit tricky placing it, but its so big, manually placing it with one hand seems possible,... or I’d love to see you guys do what I just said & Try another break test doing just that!
Dyneema is awesome, my braided fishing line( Diawa J-Braid Grand) is made out of it. Stuff is 400% stronger than monofilament(nylon) or fluorocarbon. I'm surprised it's not used more often.
Awesome to see the BD engineers and testing equipment, was wild they pulled upwards instead of down, did they give a reason for that? How was prussik? C2C?
I’m not sure if anyone else would be interested, but I would love to see some drop tests done on Purcell Prusiks. It would be cool to see how 6mm Nylon compares to 5.9mm Powercord; as well as if there’s a sweet spot for how many wraps to use on the prusik so it absorbs some of the impact force. Cheers!
Did you see this video?
ua-cam.com/video/AQP5nSEA2H4/v-deo.html&feature=share
I did! It actually got me curious about isolating the Purcell itself. The ascender and the 13mm rope add some extra variables.
Im wondering, is it worth worth switching to powercord or stick with nylon; and is there a preferred number of bars for the prusik that reduces impact force (6 bar, 5 bar, 4?)
So what you're saying is that Camelots are real Friends?
can't stop looking at that 5.10 box in the BD lab
As an engineer, we add a fairly substantial (10-25%) margin of safety on any rating we calculate to account for the fact that we can't test every use case
Is the sampling rate of the gauge fast enough to capture true maximum force? Just seems like if you're using a fully static series of connections, the break happens so fast that the peak force could be between samples on the gauge. Just curious
I love this video
i don't even climb or have any connection to this world but find it weirdly intresting i have watched 6-7 of these videos now
I don't even climb but I love these videos.
Awesome video guys, what's your view on reslinging cams with nylon accessory cord with double fisherman's?
Wow great testing. There will not be ultra lights in my rack ever 🫣I’m a cable guy regardless of weight.
18:06 Jared doesn't seem so stoked about dyneema hahah
I've been wanting to get on Prusik Peak!
Have you guys thought about your test rig in terms of the bolts that hold your synthetic rock faces? I noticed they flex a lot in the dynamic moment and results in variance of the crack the cams hold on to. I don’t have suggestions how to improve it I’m just saying.
I am so curious to know where the intro was filmed, looks incredible!
Prusik peak
Can you test slung chockstones simulated on the drop tower?
Ultra high molecular WEIGHT polyethylene!
Why is the other side of the artificial crack allowed to move? it seems like that might put unrealistic crushing force on the cams.
I mean if that looks familiar damn you lucky you survived the fall.
Once i click on a agear video it's hard to justify clicking away before the end because it's the stuff that stops me from dying 😵
Very cool. I still want to see micro cams tested on rock
and that's why C4s are in nearly every rack! These things are bombers.
I'm thinking the flexing of the all-thread in your testing rig is affecting the cams ability to hold or not hold. I'm thinking it might actually make them hold better.
Edit: if you're break testing and not grip testing then I guess it doesn't matter?
Nice!!
would you recommend them for limestone? due to friction
I'm sure you've heard it before but it would be cool to see the testing with someone below belaying to see the falls one cam can take
I need to learn how to use big bros bc I feel like bigger cams-even the 6- are too big to carry
I wonder why they didn't crimp the Dyneema with the cam body. I'd think that would give better strength than just having go around the pin. Anyway, they're super good enough. Just a thought/question.
5:40
Diana ross: I'm coming
Out.
I read the title wrong and thought he was gunna blow up rock locks
wait they went to the enchantments? is there a video on this? Seattle for the win 🤘
congrats on the sponsorship;)
Definitely not sponsored. I was just grateful I got to engage directly with a company for the first time to give better content to the audience.