Here is my analysis of the climbing accident on mussy hooks at Sand Rock, AL (also known as Cherokee Rock Village). Thoughts go out to the friends and family.
Personal Anchor System. I know about having that short rope that’s on your belt, that you attach to the top rope when leading so you have two attachments rather than one, before you look through and clean, but I’ve never called it a PAS. Not sure if that’s what they’re talking about.
Pas is a short rope or sling,about an arms length. It's attached to your harness an you can attach it to the anchor and secure yourself to the anchor while doing other tasks. You can then sit in your harness while not having any weight on the climbing rope/setup. There are many different products out there from simple slings to adjustable tools with fixed carabineers and stuff..
Thanks Karsten! Good analysis. When I teach new cleaners to clear, I always teach to use a personal anchor, even with mussie hooks. I bound the process like this: attach PAS, weight PAS, perform the cleaning process, weight rope, remove the PAS. I think this adds an extra layer of protection to cleaning, at the cost of very little time.
exactly what I was thinking.....when dealing with any anchor clean up ALWAYS get at least one safety in. When rapping off or being lowered off, always weight the system with full body weight PRIOR to unclipping your safety.
We shouldn't be in a hurry to get to "efficient". The focus of beginner instruction should be doing things super safe. Then slowly over time work on ways to become faster, then way down the line consider leaving gear behind / skipping steps, but that's advanced.
Thank you for your explanation and safety tips. I’m a family friend of this deceased student (Faye). My deepest sympathy goes out to her family. As I read most of the comments, I’m so disappointed nobody pointed out that those who are experts and have years of experience are responsible for the safety of less experienced climbers. The climbing team and her belayer, according to their own claim, with “decades of experience” should NOT ask her as a “novice” climber to do the cleaning. A potentially dangerous task for her as her second time of outdoor rock climbing. She felt confident and trusted those team members to climb with them and maybe it didn’t cross her mind that they might ask her to finish a task which might put her in danger. Their mistakes cost her dear life! What a tragedy! I hope anyone who is interested in rock climbing at any level takes safety precautions seriously. Especially when someone else’s life is in your care.
Couldn't agree more. Right away I was instantly questioning why the seasoned climbers would be putting a newer climber into a position like this. Still can't wrap my head around them not at least giving a PAS to her. Always need to have fail-safes in place during the cleaning anchors process. My condolences to you and the family.
CRV has a couple sets of ground level mussy hook anchors at the entrance to the main area of SandRock. They are specifically there to safely teach new climbers how to clean anchors. I have used them with new climbers several times before.
Wasn't in association with the UGA climbing club. Please correct this. It gives the club a terrible look. They're taking this hard enough, they don't need undeserved blame.
About the need to always have an eye on customers. During my training to become a professional "moniteur d'escalade", one of the instructors said: "It is normal customer behaviour, to make unappropriate actions in unexpected moments". Best advice I've had across the whole course!
Im only a couple years older than Yutung Zhang (the woman who passed), am also in college, and recently climbed at that exact crag. This accident hits hard. I dont think I'll ever stop climbing but when so many parts of an accident remind you of yourself it hurts more. So much love to her family and friends, I pray I stay safe and that my family will never have to experience that grief.
This is my local crag and it was shocking to read about this accident. My heart goes out to her friends and family. I agree with you Karsten, someone has to realize the skills that are needed to properly instruct someone. I always encourage someone to seek instruction if they can afford it, or really practice self instruction. Like you said “good at keeping themselves safe”. That says it right there.
I think she did the second possibility because I remember when someone asked me to clean, I got confused and thought I needed to take them all off without thinking through the consequences. Sometimes, when you're so focused on what someone is telling you, you take things quite literally. I was attached on my PAS and I stopped myself, thought through all the things I was taught from a guide, and shouted down "wait, repeat that? Hold on I'm thinking, I am going to send you a photo with my phone." I had been climbing for a few years before that but never encounter mussy hooks and I knew what I had to do but I double checked anyway. Sometimes even with things you do often, you should double check yourself and take the time to do SERENE. And get a guide! they know so much about the local area and not just teach you about how, but why. Thank you for this post. This one hit me hard.
Hi there. While the video was very informative on potential technical aspects, I would like to point out that this accident is not related to the climbing club at the school and to say that is misinformation.
its interesting how with quick draws you are supposed to not have the gates on the same side. but musties no one seems to care about that rule. would prevent some of these unclipping problems, also a redesigned musty with out that big lip above the gate
Absolutely. I've wondered that. That being said, the likelihood is so small in a tr/lowering situation because the force is always down but in this case, opposite opposed would have saved her life
Oh goodness. How awful. Everyone, absolutely everyone, when cleaning and screwing around with your anchor, have an independent leash with screwgate on your harness which you also clip in while sorting out the anchor. Then reverify the rope/anchor system before reweighting it. I always, always, ALWAYS keep a permanent leash on my harness for outdoor climbing, whether lead, toprope, sport or trad. Climb safe.
Thanks for this video and it is so sad to hear that a young life was lost. I have taught friends in the past how to clean anchors. But we would never let anyone clean an anchor without practicing on the ground and them having led easy climbs before, so that we know they have the right mindset when fumbling around with the rope and carabiners. And even then we made sure that one of us is up there in arms length because people are nervous and make mistakes. When we take friends top-ropeing we use only locking biners in the anchor and leave the last clip before the anchor clipped in as additional redundancy and never let them clean the anchor. I remember some statistics in bolted climbing areas saying that most fatalities happen due to mistakes in setting and cleaning the anchor.
Very well explained. I haven't seen any of those hooks in the UK where I climb, I wonder if they are the safest bet. We have to pass the rope through loops almost everywhere we go, meaning if I bring beginners climbing outdoors, I will clean the anchor myself at the end of the day.
Good explanation, my guess is that mussy hooks are considered "so fafe" that people let their guard down. Another thing that I have seen newbies doing when top roping and unclipping the quick-draws on the way up, also instinctively try to do the same when they reach the anchor.
Second day outdoor and cleaning anchors gives me chills. We’ve got a 30ft crag with TR access where I’ve ran up the side to give good inspection- way better than yelling and squinting from the bottom of something taller.
Second day might be fine depending what was done the day before. I guess my first time outdoors was a multipitch trad thing but we went through everything at ground level first. I think he lead the route first then I did. But most importantly we went through everything on the ground first and checked for understanding. Different paces work for different people at different things.
Imho thats basic knowledge and should be teached early, even at the first day if you ask me. But im with you when you say it should be a setup where you as Guide can look directly at your "students".
There is another potential issue with the mussy hooks. I was out and setup a climb with anchors not directly above the main part of the climb (It finished about 8 feet right of the start). After setting it up, I switched ends of the rope for the next climber. That way the next climber, if they fell, would stay more in line with the current part of the climb because the quickdraw were still clipped (now acting as directionals). What was unexpected is that a bunch of twist got into the climbers end. This twist must have been amplified as the rope shortened as the climber went up since the twist wasn't working itself through the tension of the anchors at the top. I didn't think much of the twist until the climber had clipped just the mussy hooks at the top and started to be lowered. Only a step or 2 down, there was a pop which startled everyone. My guess is that the twist in the rope somehow curled up and over the wire gate of the mussy and unclipped. Luckily it only unclipped one (yeah for redundancy). Luckily this person knew how to clean routes and climbed back up and clipped themselves direct and fed the rope directly through the Quicklinks holding the mussy hooks. A good lesson learned though, mussy hooks can be so convenient but they have some hazards to be aware of.
Super scary! Thanks for sharing. I know that I personally always appreciate when the route dev puts some quick links on the hooks so you can have them opposite and opposed when you clip through. It sounds like these ones were both facing away from the rock?
@@scottnon9779 Correct, both mussy hooks were facing outward. Having them opposed would help some with safety but my biggest takeaway is don't have under experienced climbers clean in general but especially with mussy hooks. I also work for an outdoor educator and instruct our climbing instructor course and both myself and my AMGA SPI co-instructor were very surprised but what I described above. Honestly, I am leaning more toward having goat heads instead of mussy hooks. They seem less prone to the issues mussy hooks can have.
Wow! That’s a really good warning, and so glad it ended up ok! Climbing in Austria recently I encountered a wall bolted with with a single, non locking, carabiner at the (2 bolt) anchor. This was a big, anchor specific one, but still basically just a big wire gate biner. My friend wanted to top rope through it. Now I have another real world example to tell him.
@@johngo6283 Yes, the rope was just clipped through the mussy hooks with no other gear. This was a conscious choice as there was only one other climber going to top rope it and that way no one had to clean any gear (other than the quick draws on their way up). I was slightly hesitant because the mussy hooks only had wire gates, but if they are weighted, they "should" be fine, that's why they are there to theoretically make cleaning safer and easier. What was not anticipated were the severe twists in the rope, because in my 20+ years climbing I had never had that happen. Even when the climber got to the top, they looked at the anchor and knew everything was setup correctly to be lowered. This was a rare situation with the twists in the rope. It would have happened regardless of personal gear, because they would have just removed it to be lowered.
Thanks for the explanation and demonstration. Wherever I climb, they do not want top roping on fixed gear. A couple observations, she wouldn’t have had anything to clean if they didn’t add the locking carabiner. The rope couldn’t come unclipped accidentally if the Mussy hooks were opposed. It sounds like the climber didn’t have a PAS or Petzl Connect to back herself up while trying to clean for the first time. This tragedy was very preventable.
It’s normal for the Mussy hooks to not be opposed, at least everywhere I’ve climbed. Adding in the carabiner was an attempt to put less wear on them as Karsten showed after with the chains. Often you don’t even need to go in direct with Mussy hooks as it’s so easy to just swap the rope from your anchor, although definitely a good idea when you are going to be messing around with it while the rope is unweighted like it would need to be here. Like you say though it’s usually a combination of things that go wrong rather than one single point of failure.
I was trying out different scenarios to see the higher likelihood of a double clip happening. And as already brought out in the AAC report and analyses: Bolts installed waist level that get equipped with anchor (Mussy) hooks. But also if the hooks sit closer together either by the bolt placement or being extended with chain(or additional links). Developers and stewards should also give some additional thought as what might be a better and safer option to equip an anchor with based on where the bolts are situated when the climber arrives at the anchor.
Generally, that is a good rule of thumb. But as was demonstrated in the video, this accident could've happened without climbing above the anchor. It's more about generating slack, and then having this slack back clip the hooks.
Incredibly sorry to hear about that accident. There are many examples of people trying to make something extra safe and actually make it less safe. Also many examples of experienced climbers not experienced (enough) to "teach" beginners what to do or set up stuff in a proper and easy way for beginners.
Unfortunately I've found it exceedingly rare to find people in climbing/skiing/mountaineering who are 1) Experienced 2) Actually trained on proper techniques (not just "my buddy told me to do this 10 years ago and I haven't died yet") 3) Patient and willing to take time to focus on teaching their "friends" who they drag out on dangerous adventures. Seems like the norm is take people out and throw them to the wolves, explain very little and hope they survive. This is why hiring a guide or taking a class is money well spent.
@@Govanification I think often the problem is that the experienced people actually want to climb. When you take somebody out on their first day of climbing, don’t expect to get any real climbing done yourself. Make sure there are several experienced people. That way one can be at the top and one down on the ground.
Yeah that makes sense, however it doesn't have to be all or nothing. I've had plenty of days out with beginners where I got to climb some harder stuff and still worked on skills / easier climbs. Maybe I'm just more willing to invest some free time into teaching than others. Some of my best climbing partners were pretty green when we met, but I took time to make sure they didn't die and then they flourished.
Excellent video Karsten! Thoughts go out to the friends and family. Very sad. Climbing is not casual. One mistake or mishap and it goes south. Good advice getting instruction from a professional! Not without risk but much more likely to get the best outcome for your day. Risk analysis is a skill that professionals learn by experience but I think it should be stressed during the formative days.
Could you make a follow up video showing how using quickdraws to top rope with mussy hooks would be better. Then just pull the rope up int the mussy hooks to clean like you mentioned. I've seen too many people too roping on the mussy hooks at sand rock unfortunately, and this is a grim reminder safety is not an accident. Good mentorship and practicing in secure environments is key
I cleaned my first anchor at sand rock forget the route name. I had an a guide right there next to me. Telling me what to do. He was an arm length away from me. I also had my PAS. This accident is really sad.
This is a very unfortunate accident and the first of its kind that I've heard of in my 20 years of climbing. To whomever set up the toprope, it's not your fault. Many experienced climbers and even guides would likely have thought it was perfectly safe within the context of the sport (rock climbing is inherently dangerous). I do appreciate this opportunity to learn something new about the danger of mussy hooks.
before committing to ANY system, i like to have a cows tail as back up until everything is taking weight and looks fine. Then you unclip your sling/cows tail from the bolt. if you are weighted on the sling, get your belayer to take in and get the sling slack so you can take it off easily... this way you know the weight is on the system before you take off the sling.
@@craigbritton1089 assuming they just cleaned the route, they have a collection of quick draws hanging off them. Shouldn't be cleaning a route if you don't have the gear/knowledge anyway. I thoroughly encourage, practicing at ground level, what you intend to do and making sure your partner knows what to do even if you've climbed together for years. In industry this would be a toolbox talk or dynamic risk assessment. I saw someone once in Spain who cleaned a route and DIDN'T do the weight check before unclipping and then just let go... the belayer hadn't taken in the slack but had kept him on locked off on belay, thankfully! He came to rest about 10ft off the deck with the belayer now dangling themselves. Serious communication failure and lack of awareness despite both being very experienced. In industry this would be a near miss
@@questionableabsanity my guess is the leader or second cleaned most draws ( unless a directional was needed); I have seen people say they will rappel and then step over the edge to be lowered; and start falling; but fortunately caught themselves; I was nearly killed by a world famous climber who was to set up a rope for each us to rap on a tied off single strand to see if an. A3 route had pro decent enough to lead. He insisted it must just be slack and stretch; I said go look as I held onto both strands. He came back with a chagrined look and apology; After that I said. whomever sets up a rap goes first.
Also, as somebody who helps run a Local Climbing Organization, and therefore knows what hardware costs to replace, unless the local ethic is SPECIFICALLY otherwise wear your own stuff out toproping and leave the Mussy Hooks & Rings there for lowering-off (or rappelling).
Just a quick note here: "Students Teaching Students" doesn't automatically equal unsafe. The Syracuse University Outing Club (SUOC) had climbing leader standards long before there were certification bodies around selling that service. I helped them do several revisions of their standards, and to be blunt about it SUOC tends to this day to require leaders to demonstrate far more competency in a real-world environment than I've seen any certification company do. The real question, no matter who is doing the leading, is "Does this group have, teach, follow, and require adherence to regularly audited standards?"
It's not a certification company. It is the American Mountain Guides Association that is over seen by the International Federation of Mountain Guides Association and the SPI certification is recognized by the UIAA (the same people that stamp your climbing gear). This is not to say someone doesn't have the skill set. It just allows the public to know the instructor has met a minimum standard from a third party organization; which happens to be the international standard.
@@howtoclimb (1) Day 1 of any good WFR course you are told "We are required to issue certifications, but it is actually the training that matters". They say that for a reason. (2) SUOC and many other apprenticeship-mode programs provide the equivalent training to several of the PCIA courses. I know and have discussed this with their leadership / instructors. PCIA offers really good material too, so I don't want anyone to think I look down on what they do. The problem is that… (3) … the students are left to foot a $1500 to $3000 cost by themselves for the PCIA courses and their other AMGA / IFMGA recognized equivalents plus appropriate First Responder training. That's a lot of cash for people often making minimum wage, and usually for only 20 hours a week, to have a piece of paper showing that they know what they've typically spent the last 18 months mastering. (4) In the end it comes down to "Do we want them to climb and organically grow the community the way the core of it has grown for 120+ years or do we have other interests entirely?" (5) We are having the same problem right now in the caving community-a group of people have become fixated on building a vertical skills trainers training program when what we really need are agreed upon standards and best practices for teaching them.
@@DrewNorthupI’ll try to answer some of this: The PCIA, and other organizations should not be lumped into the same category as the AMGA as they are not UIAA or IFMGA sanctioned. I’m not saying the training isn’t good. But it doesn’t have those stamps. I guess it’s like airplane pilots, you can learn and be a skilled pilot, but if you don’t have a license to fly specific planes, it’s hard for the public to make a decision on who has what skill. These pieces of paper help. As for the costs, universities should step up and start helping with this. They have plenty of money when it comes to new football helmets.
The Mussy hook is usually installed in tandem, and the design makes opposing orientation less than optimal, versus typical carabiner setups. In normal use, clipping in is very convenient and considered more 'foolproof' than having to deal with threading a rope through chainlinks or eyes, then correctly untying to transfer weight to the threaded side. Many total beginners may be so anxious as to be blind to what we might assume is obvious, including unclipping entirely from every anchor - a PAS might actually only further complicate and confuse such a person, adding one more piece of equipment they do not understand. In the Front Range of Colorado, Mussy anchors have replaced old inconsistent systems, and the thick steel will withstand hundreds of lowers with minimal wear; still, adding redundant biners when toproping is standard practice. No beginner should be trusted to make such decisions, until they've demonstrated consistent understanding of crucial techniques, and where mistakes can occur.
I have experienced pulling a rope fall to the ground when two Mussy hooks are drilled so closely together that the Mussy gates can touch each other. Scary.
Sad for this person, I love this sport, I would like to avoid 100% of accident. Many situation may happen at the top, in my opinion anybody should have a good practice on the ground for any of these exact situations as long as they do not have a big outside climbing experience. For a beginner it is always better to climb with someone with a good experience, if a situation is different than usual better let the experienced climber do the cleaning then first thing to do is to ask what was done and get this in application on the ground as practice at the minute they have a chance. Worse case is situation with two beginner, they may face something they did not get the chance to get good instruction and the experience is maybe not enough to take the good decision. The most important thing to do at cleaning is to really test the system before taking out your lanyard or any other safety you use, do not only ask to your partner to take you, take time to put all your weight on the rope and make sure you have slack on your lanyard, this way you know the system have at least a chance to work (make sure to built it good anyway). All experienced climber know about testing the system but sometime over trusting yourself can be dangerous.
I'm not experienced with rock climbing but I have Rope Access experience with over 5k rope hours. My thing is why not have a personal anchor while doing all the transitioning?
Most of us would have a PAS, but in this case with there being mussy hooks I can understand why there wasn’t the use of one. There was never a need (or intention) to remove the rope from the system it was safely running through, she just somehow managed to remove it. In Europe we mostly use opposed locking carabiners for toprope anchors (instead of mussy hooks), in which case the person cleaning would always make use of a PAS to clean their hardware and rethread the rope through the fixed hardware before lowering.
Another way to prevent this: Put the mussy hooks in opposition when establishing the route. Climbers complain to me all the time that its a pain to clip the hook that is hanging gate-inward, but its like 2-seconds more of a pain. Its not hard at all. Gate opposition would make it so one of the hooks unclipped but the other did not.
For the love of PAS, especially when cleaning! So many I see are concerned with this minimalist approach to climbing, maybe the belief that it looks cool to have no extra gear on you? Terrible situation for all involved but as always, thank you for this video as well as all of your others, invaluable information!
Doesn't have anything to do with looking cool. In a sport climbing situation with a proper anchor there's just no need for a PAS. You can safely clean the route without it. It's about knowing what to do and teaching it accordingly and safely to others.
I don’t think that in this case a PAS would be the solution. (I use one a lot). The issue here is a novice climber who can not recognize what is (potentially) going wrong In some case, a PAS , for a novice, just creates another potential accident, becasue they don’t realize they have somehow removed the rope from the anchors, but the PAS is holding them. Then they unclip that to lower… Of course, if you use it correctly that doesn’t happen. But that is the whole point, this climber did not know how to do this stuff correctly yet, and unfortunately she never got the chance to learn.
We always preach redundancy yet this mindset of there is just no need leads others to do the same. We are talking about a beginner who just lost their life so lets keep that in context. Teaching others to utilize a backup should not be viewed as not needed.
I know lots of university clubs have a money problem-ie having too much of it and not knowing what to spend it on! Good point about having a guide present
Most people now start off climbing in gyms and thus do not learn basic rope and anchor techniques before going outside. And " experienced" climbers get sloppy. And I have seen guides screw up anchors; When I learned climbing in the 60s it was taught that you should be able to tie in with me handed in a cold shower with your eyes close; and that you could set up an anchor with your eyes closed. And you could catch a 15-20 ft fall with a hip belay. Then experienced climbers would partner with you. Now to many think you can learn such skills while climbing; all you should let someone do early in their climbing career is top rope and be lowered/ or better yet; downclimb
I don’t recommend lowering off fixed gear , better to anchor and rappel and not add wear to the rings. plus the experienced person should do the cleaning.
The problem with rappelling is there are a lot of steps. So it is much safer from a human error standpoint to rappel. Lots of areas are encouraging climbers to lower so that no one gets hurt.
You could look at this as a problem. Hopefully, if you have the skills to lead a route, you also have the skills to secure yourself, thread, the rope correctly, tie, back in, and lower off.
"not supposed to TR through mussies" I don't cause I've cleaned tons of anchors, but she died because people think putting an insignificant amount of wear and tear on a mussy is "poor form" and thus risked injury/death. Let's normalize TRs off of mussies if your just getting into the sport
I’m kind of surprised by the fact that these hooks are used for climbing. I have never seen them used here in Quebec. Looks totally unsafe to me to use something that doesn’t lock. We only use rings and quicklinks
Could this be climber negligence instead of the technique she used? I mean lets be honest, we should be checking all our systems before we weight them.
It is a mistake by the climber, but if you're out on your second day climbing outdoors ever, the person is likely being taught by others and the experienced climbers ultimately decided to put an inexperienced climber in that situation. I don't think you can reasonably expect someone to know what is and isn't dangerous if they don't have experience in the sport. It seems like a classic halo effect, if you're familiar with the term (you think that because others 'know what they're doing', you're safe).
It really can't be blamed on someone that had no idea of the risks they are taking. It is the fault of the folks she was with and the culture she was in.
What happened to testing your rappel rope before you unclip from a anchor, you learn that on the ground well before you do it in real life. What a shame, something so simple yet so deadly.
Primacy: Never, ever start with the incorrect example. Many people only remember the first time they see something, correct or incorrect (they have no way to tell the difference!) When that first example is deliberately wrong, you're setting someone up for failure. You may describe yourself as an educator, but if you don't have any background in basic educational theory and application, you should only be releasing correct, accurate information for unguided consumption.
Thanks for the feedback. When teaching there are times to show the incorrect way first, like when students have context or maybe already know the “incorrect “ way and seeing it fail can have a great impact. This is to show why an anchor failed by the techniques the climber used. The next video shows the proper way to use the anchor.
This doesn’t seem to be related to them being a student club at all. Just someone learning. This mistake could be made by anyone, certainly any new climber. Of the hundreds of people I’ve climbed with, I know only 2 people who learned from a guide. Almost everyone is still learning from community, friends, and family. That’s how I learned 10+ years ago. And I think we should encourage mentorship. By repeating that this is due to it being a college club, and implying they are more dangerous, you are risking the future of those clubs. Colleges and universities never hesitate to shut down activities. Some administrator seeing this type of talk is all it takes for thousands of future climbers to lose access to a club. Without that free community mentorship most of those people likely won’t ever get into outdoor climbing. I’m not saying “don’t get professional training” it definitely is important. But for decades most climbers learned from mentors, and this isn’t something specific to college clubs.
I’m calling out the clubs because of the culture. The schools have plenty of money for things like football but won’t hire a certified instructor for the day to go outside. I believe in mentorship as well but see how many of the folks mentoring should really be still learning themselves. It’s a downward spiral of knowledge. The folks that they mentor now start mentoring. Then someone dies. Not worth it in my opinion.
@@howtoclimb again, this has nothing to do with clubs, but mentorship learning in general. Most people outside of clubs don’t hire certified instructors either. Just like clubs- they learn from friends and family, who learned from friends and family. That has been the norm forever where I climb. Your suggestion is that everyone has to hire an instructor to learn. Or I guess you’re saying that everyone that’s not in a club already did? But it’s so far from reality to think that clubs don’t get instruction, and non-club climbers do. I think it’s actually the opposite, the club at my local university has hired an instructor for a weekend a few times for a big group of beginners (the crag is very busy that day!). Most other times I see an instructor at the crag they are just belaying boomers or birthday parties for people who will never climb again. This tragedy, could have happened to any new climber, or even some not-so-new climbers. Attacking students and clubs in general doesn’t help. The real issue is that most seasoned climbers look down on new climbers - they don’t want to take their time to mentor “some Gumby”. Instead of mentorship being commonplace, we have elitism and gatekeeping; newbies are left to learn from the internet. More clubs would be better, if the seasoned climbers volunteered time to run a club, host events, and made beginners feel welcome then more people would learn from experienced climbers. People are going to climb. The ones with money will pay instructors. The rest will learn for free. That’s never changing.
Finally, since you don't seem to understand how Universities work, Student Clubs are almost never permitted to just go out and hire a guiding service. The University will demand to provide it themselves and often will do so by closing the student club. Don't tell University organizations what to do unless you understand the constraints they operate under.
Well, funny you mention that. I actually do understand as I work with many of them. It's ok to be part of a culture you want to change. But at some point you are going to have to accept some responsibility here.
@@howtoclimb I have done my best as a student 20 years ago and as an alumnus since then, as well as being a staff member at another one elsewhere. It is the universities that largely don't want to change. They see a functioning apprenticeship program that they're not contributing diddly towards and they don't want to have to pay somebody else to do what they do: issue certificates & diplomas (hopefully following appropriate education and practice time).
College clubs are growing exponentially and there is simply no way they are keeping up with safety or best practices (even if they intend to). Some clubs at bigger schools like UC systems have 100+ members. There is zero standards enforced or means of qualification for their club "leaders" and they're quickly becoming the worst offenders at all crags. This accident is terrible but maybe it will wake up college administrators to start placing some rules on their students.
I wouldn't say I got angry but I definitely agree that it's best practice to simply install a separate toprope anchor and then clip the mussy hooks at the end to clean/lower off. I don't think there's ever really a good reason to toprope on mussy hooks, given how expensive they are.
mussy hooks only coast half an hour at minimum wage. if you are so concerned about wear start a community fund to replace them at regular intervals. i would bet that most people that use community gear have never donated towards it what right then do they have to determine how it is used. if a beginner with no technical knowledge it kept safer by toproping of fixed gear then they should do so and then just donate to the local group the installs gear
I may throw in there that whenever anchor cleaning a PAS should be engaged.
totally agreed, this is my worst nightmare and this whole video i was wondering where the PAS was gonna pop in!
I am also concerned about this PAS that you expect everyone to know what it is
Personal Anchor System.
I know about having that short rope that’s on your belt, that you attach to the top rope when leading so you have two attachments rather than one, before you look through and clean, but I’ve never called it a PAS. Not sure if that’s what they’re talking about.
Pas is a short rope or sling,about an arms length. It's attached to your harness an you can attach it to the anchor and secure yourself to the anchor while doing other tasks. You can then sit in your harness while not having any weight on the climbing rope/setup.
There are many different products out there from simple slings to adjustable tools with fixed carabineers and stuff..
It never hearts to have one even if the cleaning is quick. Test that you’re systems are weighted before trusting a single one.
Thanks Karsten! Good analysis. When I teach new cleaners to clear, I always teach to use a personal anchor, even with mussie hooks. I bound the process like this: attach PAS, weight PAS, perform the cleaning process, weight rope, remove the PAS. I think this adds an extra layer of protection to cleaning, at the cost of very little time.
Exactly. If you are touching your anchor system, it is no longer your anchor system and you need independent connection and reverify before switching.
exactly what I was thinking.....when dealing with any anchor clean up ALWAYS get at least one safety in. When rapping off or being lowered off, always weight the system with full body weight PRIOR to unclipping your safety.
@@davidofoakland2363
100%
Yes, this takes some time though and many people want to be "efficient" -while sacrificing safety..
We shouldn't be in a hurry to get to "efficient". The focus of beginner instruction should be doing things super safe. Then slowly over time work on ways to become faster, then way down the line consider leaving gear behind / skipping steps, but that's advanced.
Thank you for your explanation and safety tips.
I’m a family friend of this deceased student (Faye).
My deepest sympathy goes out to her family.
As I read most of the comments, I’m so disappointed nobody pointed out that those who are experts and have years of experience are responsible for the safety of less experienced climbers. The climbing team and her belayer, according to their own claim, with “decades of experience” should NOT ask her as a “novice” climber to do the cleaning. A potentially dangerous task for her as her second time of outdoor rock climbing. She felt confident and trusted those team members to climb with them and maybe it didn’t cross her mind that they might ask her to finish a task which might put her in danger. Their mistakes cost her dear life! What a tragedy!
I hope anyone who is interested in rock climbing at any level takes safety precautions seriously. Especially when someone else’s life is in your care.
Yes I can agree with you on all points here.
Couldn't agree more. Right away I was instantly questioning why the seasoned climbers would be putting a newer climber into a position like this. Still can't wrap my head around them not at least giving a PAS to her. Always need to have fail-safes in place during the cleaning anchors process. My condolences to you and the family.
Faye wanted to learn.
@@bennettstone3784 And? The "experienced" climbers with her should know you learn on the ground, with no risk involved.
CRV has a couple sets of ground level mussy hook anchors at the entrance to the main area of SandRock. They are specifically there to safely teach new climbers how to clean anchors. I have used them with new climbers several times before.
Wasn't in association with the UGA climbing club. Please correct this. It gives the club a terrible look. They're taking this hard enough, they don't need undeserved blame.
I agree that it wasn't a club trip. I'm on the club group me and see the trips posted.
2:40 is absolutely terrifying... As a new climber reading the forum it didn't make much sense. But thank you so much for a visual. RIP Faye.
About the need to always have an eye on customers.
During my training to become a professional "moniteur d'escalade", one of the instructors said:
"It is normal customer behaviour, to make unappropriate actions in unexpected moments".
Best advice I've had across the whole course!
Im only a couple years older than Yutung Zhang (the woman who passed), am also in college, and recently climbed at that exact crag. This accident hits hard. I dont think I'll ever stop climbing but when so many parts of an accident remind you of yourself it hurts more. So much love to her family and friends, I pray I stay safe and that my family will never have to experience that grief.
Thanks for the video Karsten. I can't help but notice the pink tricam in the background.....
Thanks Karsten, you said exactly what I did about this. Prayers for her friends and family.
This is my local crag and it was shocking to read about this accident. My heart goes out to her friends and family. I agree with you Karsten, someone has to realize the skills that are needed to properly instruct someone. I always encourage someone to seek instruction if they can afford it, or really practice self instruction. Like you said “good at keeping themselves safe”. That says it right there.
Thanks for putting together a video and short on this matter to bring more awareness.
I think she did the second possibility because I remember when someone asked me to clean, I got confused and thought I needed to take them all off without thinking through the consequences. Sometimes, when you're so focused on what someone is telling you, you take things quite literally. I was attached on my PAS and I stopped myself, thought through all the things I was taught from a guide, and shouted down "wait, repeat that? Hold on I'm thinking, I am going to send you a photo with my phone." I had been climbing for a few years before that but never encounter mussy hooks and I knew what I had to do but I double checked anyway. Sometimes even with things you do often, you should double check yourself and take the time to do SERENE.
And get a guide! they know so much about the local area and not just teach you about how, but why. Thank you for this post. This one hit me hard.
I would agree, being in a new situation can get confusing no matter who you are. Best to learn in a safe setting.
Hi there. While the video was very informative on potential technical aspects, I would like to point out that this accident is not related to the climbing club at the school and to say that is misinformation.
its interesting how with quick draws you are supposed to not have the gates on the same side. but musties no one seems to care about that rule. would prevent some of these unclipping problems, also a redesigned musty with out that big lip above the gate
Absolutely. I've wondered that. That being said, the likelihood is so small in a tr/lowering situation because the force is always down but in this case, opposite opposed would have saved her life
Oh goodness. How awful. Everyone, absolutely everyone, when cleaning and screwing around with your anchor, have an independent leash with screwgate on your harness which you also clip in while sorting out the anchor. Then reverify the rope/anchor system before reweighting it.
I always, always, ALWAYS keep a permanent leash on my harness for outdoor climbing, whether lead, toprope, sport or trad.
Climb safe.
My condolences to the family...
And thanks for showing this, I haven't encountered these hooks in the wild. So this was very informative.
Looks like others have had close calls too, but I would have used the chains if I saw this in the wild. Old habits I guess.
I appreciate these videos so much
Great thoughts, thank you ❤
That’s tragic, definitely something to look out for when dealing with mussy hooks
also: always toprope with the last quickdraw still in place as a backup
Thanks for this video and it is so sad to hear that a young life was lost.
I have taught friends in the past how to clean anchors. But we would never let anyone clean an anchor without practicing on the ground and them having led easy climbs before, so that we know they have the right mindset when fumbling around with the rope and carabiners. And even then we made sure that one of us is up there in arms length because people are nervous and make mistakes.
When we take friends top-ropeing we use only locking biners in the anchor and leave the last clip before the anchor clipped in as additional redundancy and never let them clean the anchor.
I remember some statistics in bolted climbing areas saying that most fatalities happen due to mistakes in setting and cleaning the anchor.
Being at the anchor is crucial!
Very well explained. I haven't seen any of those hooks in the UK where I climb, I wonder if they are the safest bet. We have to pass the rope through loops almost everywhere we go, meaning if I bring beginners climbing outdoors, I will clean the anchor myself at the end of the day.
Good explanation, my guess is that mussy hooks are considered "so fafe" that people let their guard down.
Another thing that I have seen newbies doing when top roping and unclipping the quick-draws on the way up, also instinctively try to do the same when they reach the anchor.
I usually remind my guests before they get to the top. Even though they are usually lockers.
Pleeeeaase do more of these!
Appreciate the video, thank you!
Second day outdoor and cleaning anchors gives me chills. We’ve got a 30ft crag with TR access where I’ve ran up the side to give good inspection- way better than yelling and squinting from the bottom of something taller.
Second day might be fine depending what was done the day before. I guess my first time outdoors was a multipitch trad thing but we went through everything at ground level first. I think he lead the route first then I did. But most importantly we went through everything on the ground first and checked for understanding. Different paces work for different people at different things.
@@andrewhunter6536leading trad on your first day out is crazy! When was that?
Imho thats basic knowledge and should be teached early, even at the first day if you ask me. But im with you when you say it should be a setup where you as Guide can look directly at your "students".
There is another potential issue with the mussy hooks. I was out and setup a climb with anchors not directly above the main part of the climb (It finished about 8 feet right of the start). After setting it up, I switched ends of the rope for the next climber. That way the next climber, if they fell, would stay more in line with the current part of the climb because the quickdraw were still clipped (now acting as directionals). What was unexpected is that a bunch of twist got into the climbers end. This twist must have been amplified as the rope shortened as the climber went up since the twist wasn't working itself through the tension of the anchors at the top. I didn't think much of the twist until the climber had clipped just the mussy hooks at the top and started to be lowered. Only a step or 2 down, there was a pop which startled everyone. My guess is that the twist in the rope somehow curled up and over the wire gate of the mussy and unclipped. Luckily it only unclipped one (yeah for redundancy). Luckily this person knew how to clean routes and climbed back up and clipped themselves direct and fed the rope directly through the Quicklinks holding the mussy hooks.
A good lesson learned though, mussy hooks can be so convenient but they have some hazards to be aware of.
Super scary! Thanks for sharing. I know that I personally always appreciate when the route dev puts some quick links on the hooks so you can have them opposite and opposed when you clip through. It sounds like these ones were both facing away from the rock?
@@scottnon9779 Correct, both mussy hooks were facing outward. Having them opposed would help some with safety but my biggest takeaway is don't have under experienced climbers clean in general but especially with mussy hooks. I also work for an outdoor educator and instruct our climbing instructor course and both myself and my AMGA SPI co-instructor were very surprised but what I described above. Honestly, I am leaning more toward having goat heads instead of mussy hooks. They seem less prone to the issues mussy hooks can have.
So, it sounds like you set up your top rope through the hooks, without having any of your own gear involved, is that right?
Wow! That’s a really good warning, and so glad it ended up ok!
Climbing in Austria recently I encountered a wall bolted with with a single, non locking, carabiner at the (2 bolt) anchor. This was a big, anchor specific one, but still basically just a big wire gate biner. My friend wanted to top rope through it. Now I have another real world example to tell him.
@@johngo6283 Yes, the rope was just clipped through the mussy hooks with no other gear. This was a conscious choice as there was only one other climber going to top rope it and that way no one had to clean any gear (other than the quick draws on their way up). I was slightly hesitant because the mussy hooks only had wire gates, but if they are weighted, they "should" be fine, that's why they are there to theoretically make cleaning safer and easier. What was not anticipated were the severe twists in the rope, because in my 20+ years climbing I had never had that happen. Even when the climber got to the top, they looked at the anchor and knew everything was setup correctly to be lowered. This was a rare situation with the twists in the rope. It would have happened regardless of personal gear, because they would have just removed it to be lowered.
Thanks for the explanation and demonstration. Wherever I climb, they do not want top roping on fixed gear. A couple observations, she wouldn’t have had anything to clean if they didn’t add the locking carabiner. The rope couldn’t come unclipped accidentally if the Mussy hooks were opposed. It sounds like the climber didn’t have a PAS or Petzl Connect to back herself up while trying to clean for the first time. This tragedy was very preventable.
It’s normal for the Mussy hooks to not be opposed, at least everywhere I’ve climbed. Adding in the carabiner was an attempt to put less wear on them as Karsten showed after with the chains. Often you don’t even need to go in direct with Mussy hooks as it’s so easy to just swap the rope from your anchor, although definitely a good idea when you are going to be messing around with it while the rope is unweighted like it would need to be here. Like you say though it’s usually a combination of things that go wrong rather than one single point of failure.
I was trying out different scenarios to see the higher likelihood of a double clip happening. And as already brought out in the AAC report and analyses: Bolts installed waist level that get equipped with anchor (Mussy) hooks. But also if the hooks sit closer together either by the bolt placement or being extended with chain(or additional links).
Developers and stewards should also give some additional thought as what might be a better and safer option to equip an anchor with based on where the bolts are situated when the climber arrives at the anchor.
Never climb above your anchor. Thats a simple one to remember as well
Generally, that is a good rule of thumb. But as was demonstrated in the video, this accident could've happened without climbing above the anchor. It's more about generating slack, and then having this slack back clip the hooks.
Incredibly sorry to hear about that accident.
There are many examples of people trying to make something extra safe and actually make it less safe.
Also many examples of experienced climbers not experienced (enough) to "teach" beginners what to do or set up stuff in a proper and easy way for beginners.
Unfortunately I've found it exceedingly rare to find people in climbing/skiing/mountaineering who are 1) Experienced 2) Actually trained on proper techniques (not just "my buddy told me to do this 10 years ago and I haven't died yet") 3) Patient and willing to take time to focus on teaching their "friends" who they drag out on dangerous adventures.
Seems like the norm is take people out and throw them to the wolves, explain very little and hope they survive. This is why hiring a guide or taking a class is money well spent.
@@Govanification I think often the problem is that the experienced people actually want to climb. When you take somebody out on their first day of climbing, don’t expect to get any real climbing done yourself. Make sure there are several experienced people. That way one can be at the top and one down on the ground.
Yeah that makes sense, however it doesn't have to be all or nothing. I've had plenty of days out with beginners where I got to climb some harder stuff and still worked on skills / easier climbs. Maybe I'm just more willing to invest some free time into teaching than others. Some of my best climbing partners were pretty green when we met, but I took time to make sure they didn't die and then they flourished.
Just keep the last quickdraw in and pick it up on the way down? Also adds redundancy in case the top anchor fails.
This is a technique for sure.
Excellent video Karsten! Thoughts go out to the friends and family. Very sad. Climbing is not casual. One mistake or mishap and it goes south. Good advice getting instruction from a professional! Not without risk but much more likely to get the best outcome for your day. Risk analysis is a skill that professionals learn by experience but I think it should be stressed during the formative days.
Could you make a follow up video showing how using quickdraws to top rope with mussy hooks would be better. Then just pull the rope up int the mussy hooks to clean like you mentioned.
I've seen too many people too roping on the mussy hooks at sand rock unfortunately, and this is a grim reminder safety is not an accident. Good mentorship and practicing in secure environments is key
I can and will try to get one out.
I cleaned my first anchor at sand rock forget the route name. I had an a guide right there next to me. Telling me what to do. He was an arm length away from me. I also had my PAS. This accident is really sad.
This is a very unfortunate accident and the first of its kind that I've heard of in my 20 years of climbing. To whomever set up the toprope, it's not your fault. Many experienced climbers and even guides would likely have thought it was perfectly safe within the context of the sport (rock climbing is inherently dangerous). I do appreciate this opportunity to learn something new about the danger of mussy hooks.
It is not ok to have a beginner clean an anchor.
before committing to ANY system, i like to have a cows tail as back up until everything is taking weight and looks fine. Then you unclip your sling/cows tail from the bolt. if you are weighted on the sling, get your belayer to take in and get the sling slack so you can take it off easily... this way you know the weight is on the system before you take off the sling.
Agreed but do beginners have that; or no how to use it?
@@craigbritton1089 assuming they just cleaned the route, they have a collection of quick draws hanging off them. Shouldn't be cleaning a route if you don't have the gear/knowledge anyway. I thoroughly encourage, practicing at ground level, what you intend to do and making sure your partner knows what to do even if you've climbed together for years. In industry this would be a toolbox talk or dynamic risk assessment.
I saw someone once in Spain who cleaned a route and DIDN'T do the weight check before unclipping and then just let go... the belayer hadn't taken in the slack but had kept him on locked off on belay, thankfully! He came to rest about 10ft off the deck with the belayer now dangling themselves. Serious communication failure and lack of awareness despite both being very experienced. In industry this would be a near miss
@@questionableabsanity my guess is the leader or second cleaned most draws ( unless a directional was needed); I have seen people say they will rappel and then step over the edge to be lowered; and start falling; but fortunately caught themselves; I was nearly killed by a world famous climber who was to set up a rope for each us to rap on a tied off single strand to see if an. A3 route had pro decent enough to lead. He insisted it must just be slack and stretch; I said go look as I held onto both strands. He came back with a chagrined look and apology; After that I said. whomever sets up a rap goes first.
Should a beginner climber out on their second day be cleaning... alone? Super sad.
No.
Also, as somebody who helps run a Local Climbing Organization, and therefore knows what hardware costs to replace, unless the local ethic is SPECIFICALLY otherwise wear your own stuff out toproping and leave the Mussy Hooks & Rings there for lowering-off (or rappelling).
Just a quick note here: "Students Teaching Students" doesn't automatically equal unsafe. The Syracuse University Outing Club (SUOC) had climbing leader standards long before there were certification bodies around selling that service. I helped them do several revisions of their standards, and to be blunt about it SUOC tends to this day to require leaders to demonstrate far more competency in a real-world environment than I've seen any certification company do.
The real question, no matter who is doing the leading, is "Does this group have, teach, follow, and require adherence to regularly audited standards?"
It's not a certification company. It is the American Mountain Guides Association that is over seen by the International Federation of Mountain Guides Association and the SPI certification is recognized by the UIAA (the same people that stamp your climbing gear). This is not to say someone doesn't have the skill set. It just allows the public to know the instructor has met a minimum standard from a third party organization; which happens to be the international standard.
@@howtoclimb (1) Day 1 of any good WFR course you are told "We are required to issue certifications, but it is actually the training that matters". They say that for a reason.
(2) SUOC and many other apprenticeship-mode programs provide the equivalent training to several of the PCIA courses. I know and have discussed this with their leadership / instructors. PCIA offers really good material too, so I don't want anyone to think I look down on what they do. The problem is that…
(3) … the students are left to foot a $1500 to $3000 cost by themselves for the PCIA courses and their other AMGA / IFMGA recognized equivalents plus appropriate First Responder training. That's a lot of cash for people often making minimum wage, and usually for only 20 hours a week, to have a piece of paper showing that they know what they've typically spent the last 18 months mastering.
(4) In the end it comes down to "Do we want them to climb and organically grow the community the way the core of it has grown for 120+ years or do we have other interests entirely?"
(5) We are having the same problem right now in the caving community-a group of people have become fixated on building a vertical skills trainers training program when what we really need are agreed upon standards and best practices for teaching them.
@@DrewNorthupI’ll try to answer some of this:
The PCIA, and other organizations should not be lumped into the same category as the AMGA as they are not UIAA or IFMGA sanctioned. I’m not saying the training isn’t good. But it doesn’t have those stamps.
I guess it’s like airplane pilots, you can learn and be a skilled pilot, but if you don’t have a license to fly specific planes, it’s hard for the public to make a decision on who has what skill. These pieces of paper help.
As for the costs, universities should step up and start helping with this. They have plenty of money when it comes to new football helmets.
The Mussy hook is usually installed in tandem, and the design makes opposing orientation less than optimal, versus typical carabiner setups. In normal use, clipping in is very convenient and considered more 'foolproof' than having to deal with threading a rope through chainlinks or eyes, then correctly untying to transfer weight to the threaded side. Many total beginners may be so anxious as to be blind to what we might assume is obvious, including unclipping entirely from every anchor - a PAS might actually only further complicate and confuse such a person, adding one more piece of equipment they do not understand. In the Front Range of Colorado, Mussy anchors have replaced old inconsistent systems, and the thick steel will withstand hundreds of lowers with minimal wear; still, adding redundant biners when toproping is standard practice. No beginner should be trusted to make such decisions, until they've demonstrated consistent understanding of crucial techniques, and where mistakes can occur.
Well said!
I have experienced pulling a rope fall to the ground when two Mussy hooks are drilled so closely together that the Mussy gates can touch each other. Scary.
Like the rope cam out of the hooks?
I know the topic is serious but is that a pink tricam behind you?
Pinkie for the win
I've been transitioning all my mussy hook anchors so one of them is a locker of some sort to prevent this rare but deadly scenario.
Thank you!! Now would be a good time to phase these things out.
Sad for this person, I love this sport, I would like to avoid 100% of accident. Many situation may happen at the top, in my opinion anybody should have a good practice on the ground for any of these exact situations as long as they do not have a big outside climbing experience. For a beginner it is always better to climb with someone with a good experience, if a situation is different than usual better let the experienced climber do the cleaning then first thing to do is to ask what was done and get this in application on the ground as practice at the minute they have a chance. Worse case is situation with two beginner, they may face something they did not get the chance to get good instruction and the experience is maybe not enough to take the good decision. The most important thing to do at cleaning is to really test the system before taking out your lanyard or any other safety you use, do not only ask to your partner to take you, take time to put all your weight on the rope and make sure you have slack on your lanyard, this way you know the system have at least a chance to work (make sure to built it good anyway). All experienced climber know about testing the system but sometime over trusting yourself can be dangerous.
I'm not experienced with rock climbing but I have Rope Access experience with over 5k rope hours. My thing is why not have a personal anchor while doing all the transitioning?
Most of us would have a PAS, but in this case with there being mussy hooks I can understand why there wasn’t the use of one. There was never a need (or intention) to remove the rope from the system it was safely running through, she just somehow managed to remove it. In Europe we mostly use opposed locking carabiners for toprope anchors (instead of mussy hooks), in which case the person cleaning would always make use of a PAS to clean their hardware and rethread the rope through the fixed hardware before lowering.
Another way to prevent this: Put the mussy hooks in opposition when establishing the route. Climbers complain to me all the time that its a pain to clip the hook that is hanging gate-inward, but its like 2-seconds more of a pain. Its not hard at all. Gate opposition would make it so one of the hooks unclipped but the other did not.
For the love of PAS, especially when cleaning! So many I see are concerned with this minimalist approach to climbing, maybe the belief that it looks cool to have no extra gear on you? Terrible situation for all involved but as always, thank you for this video as well as all of your others, invaluable information!
Doesn't have anything to do with looking cool. In a sport climbing situation with a proper anchor there's just no need for a PAS. You can safely clean the route without it. It's about knowing what to do and teaching it accordingly and safely to others.
I don’t think that in this case a PAS would be the solution. (I use one a lot). The issue here is a novice climber who can not recognize what is (potentially) going wrong
In some case, a PAS , for a novice, just creates another potential accident, becasue they don’t realize they have somehow removed the rope from the anchors, but the PAS is holding them. Then they unclip that to lower…
Of course, if you use it correctly that doesn’t happen. But that is the whole point, this climber did not know how to do this stuff correctly yet, and unfortunately she never got the chance to learn.
We always preach redundancy yet this mindset of there is just no need leads others to do the same. We are talking about a beginner who just lost their life so lets keep that in context. Teaching others to utilize a backup should not be viewed as not needed.
holy, bros been mewing since been for it was cool
rip to that girl
Would this accident have happened if these Mussy Hooks were mounted opposing???
Likely not.
I know lots of university clubs have a money problem-ie having too much of it and not knowing what to spend it on! Good point about having a guide present
Most people now start off climbing in gyms and thus do not learn basic rope and anchor techniques before going outside. And " experienced" climbers get sloppy.
And I have seen guides screw up anchors; When I learned climbing in the 60s it was taught that you should be able to tie in with me handed in a cold shower with your eyes close; and that you could set up an anchor with your eyes closed.
And you could catch a 15-20 ft fall with a hip belay.
Then experienced climbers would partner with you.
Now to many think you can learn such skills while climbing; all you should let someone do early in their climbing career is top rope and be lowered/ or better yet; downclimb
But football takes soooo much money, there is none left over!
I don’t recommend lowering off fixed gear , better to anchor and rappel and not add wear to the rings. plus the experienced person should do the cleaning.
The problem with rappelling is there are a lot of steps. So it is much safer from a human error standpoint to rappel. Lots of areas are encouraging climbers to lower so that no one gets hurt.
i see the pink tricam
Problem with second solution is you have to untie to set it up.
You could look at this as a problem. Hopefully, if you have the skills to lead a route, you also have the skills to secure yourself, thread, the rope correctly, tie, back in, and lower off.
That is true but usually done with an experienced climber or instructor so everyone else is safe.
Mussy hooks look like an accident just waiting to happen.
I think its pretty common knowledge that mussy hooks are for lowering and not for top-roping
Not for second day climbers.
"not supposed to TR through mussies" I don't cause I've cleaned tons of anchors, but she died because people think putting an insignificant amount of wear and tear on a mussy is "poor form" and thus risked injury/death.
Let's normalize TRs off of mussies if your just getting into the sport
Classic Darwin award
I’m kind of surprised by the fact that these hooks are used for climbing. I have never seen them used here in Quebec. Looks totally unsafe to me to use something that doesn’t lock. We only use rings and quicklinks
It's completely normal for sport climbing crags (in Europe) to use carabiners that don't lock as an anchor.
They would be two opposed ones
Here in Switzerland we have many anchors where you have only 1 non locking steel carabiner for getting lowered (at 2 bolts, connected with chain)
Could this be climber negligence instead of the technique she used? I mean lets be honest, we should be checking all our systems before we weight them.
It is a mistake by the climber, but if you're out on your second day climbing outdoors ever, the person is likely being taught by others and the experienced climbers ultimately decided to put an inexperienced climber in that situation. I don't think you can reasonably expect someone to know what is and isn't dangerous if they don't have experience in the sport. It seems like a classic halo effect, if you're familiar with the term (you think that because others 'know what they're doing', you're safe).
It really can't be blamed on someone that had no idea of the risks they are taking. It is the fault of the folks she was with and the culture she was in.
Ever get the smell of shite off your car? 😂
I don’t own a car
This was horrible. They should not have had her clean on her second day.
Agreed!
What happened to testing your rappel rope before you unclip from a anchor, you learn that on the ground well before you do it in real life. What a shame, something so simple yet so deadly.
Did they learn that tho?
'promo sm'
Primacy: Never, ever start with the incorrect example. Many people only remember the first time they see something, correct or incorrect (they have no way to tell the difference!) When that first example is deliberately wrong, you're setting someone up for failure. You may describe yourself as an educator, but if you don't have any background in basic educational theory and application, you should only be releasing correct, accurate information for unguided consumption.
Thanks for the feedback. When teaching there are times to show the incorrect way first, like when students have context or maybe already know the “incorrect “ way and seeing it fail can have a great impact.
This is to show why an anchor failed by the techniques the climber used. The next video shows the proper way to use the anchor.
This doesn’t seem to be related to them being a student club at all. Just someone learning. This mistake could be made by anyone, certainly any new climber.
Of the hundreds of people I’ve climbed with, I know only 2 people who learned from a guide. Almost everyone is still learning from community, friends, and family. That’s how I learned 10+ years ago. And I think we should encourage mentorship.
By repeating that this is due to it being a college club, and implying they are more dangerous, you are risking the future of those clubs. Colleges and universities never hesitate to shut down activities. Some administrator seeing this type of talk is all it takes for thousands of future climbers to lose access to a club. Without that free community mentorship most of those people likely won’t ever get into outdoor climbing.
I’m not saying “don’t get professional training” it definitely is important. But for decades most climbers learned from mentors, and this isn’t something specific to college clubs.
I’m calling out the clubs because of the culture. The schools have plenty of money for things like football but won’t hire a certified instructor for the day to go outside.
I believe in mentorship as well but see how many of the folks mentoring should really be still learning themselves. It’s a downward spiral of knowledge. The folks that they mentor now start mentoring. Then someone dies. Not worth it in my opinion.
@@howtoclimb again, this has nothing to do with clubs, but mentorship learning in general. Most people outside of clubs don’t hire certified instructors either. Just like clubs- they learn from friends and family, who learned from friends and family. That has been the norm forever where I climb.
Your suggestion is that everyone has to hire an instructor to learn. Or I guess you’re saying that everyone that’s not in a club already did?
But it’s so far from reality to think that clubs don’t get instruction, and non-club climbers do. I think it’s actually the opposite, the club at my local university has hired an instructor for a weekend a few times for a big group of beginners (the crag is very busy that day!). Most other times I see an instructor at the crag they are just belaying boomers or birthday parties for people who will never climb again.
This tragedy, could have happened to any new climber, or even some not-so-new climbers. Attacking students and clubs in general doesn’t help.
The real issue is that most seasoned climbers look down on new climbers - they don’t want to take their time to mentor “some Gumby”. Instead of mentorship being commonplace, we have elitism and gatekeeping; newbies are left to learn from the internet. More clubs would be better, if the seasoned climbers volunteered time to run a club, host events, and made beginners feel welcome then more people would learn from experienced climbers.
People are going to climb. The ones with money will pay instructors. The rest will learn for free. That’s never changing.
Finally, since you don't seem to understand how Universities work, Student Clubs are almost never permitted to just go out and hire a guiding service. The University will demand to provide it themselves and often will do so by closing the student club. Don't tell University organizations what to do unless you understand the constraints they operate under.
Well, funny you mention that. I actually do understand as I work with many of them. It's ok to be part of a culture you want to change. But at some point you are going to have to accept some responsibility here.
@@howtoclimb I have done my best as a student 20 years ago and as an alumnus since then, as well as being a staff member at another one elsewhere. It is the universities that largely don't want to change. They see a functioning apprenticeship program that they're not contributing diddly towards and they don't want to have to pay somebody else to do what they do: issue certificates & diplomas (hopefully following appropriate education and practice time).
College clubs are growing exponentially and there is simply no way they are keeping up with safety or best practices (even if they intend to). Some clubs at bigger schools like UC systems have 100+ members. There is zero standards enforced or means of qualification for their club "leaders" and they're quickly becoming the worst offenders at all crags.
This accident is terrible but maybe it will wake up college administrators to start placing some rules on their students.
As a heads up, this had nothing to do with the climbing club.
No one knows but a guide and no one can teach but a guide is your ego screaming.
I think he use the term "qualified instructor" at least once
Anybody else experience flash rage at the thought of somebody running TR laps on community gear? Wear out your own biners for karma’s sake.
I wouldn't say I got angry but I definitely agree that it's best practice to simply install a separate toprope anchor and then clip the mussy hooks at the end to clean/lower off. I don't think there's ever really a good reason to toprope on mussy hooks, given how expensive they are.
mussy hooks only coast half an hour at minimum wage. if you are so concerned about wear start a community fund to replace them at regular intervals.
i would bet that most people that use community gear have never donated towards it what right then do they have to determine how it is used. if a beginner with no technical knowledge it kept safer by toproping of fixed gear then they should do so and then just donate to the local group the installs gear
@@maxpierce2540 it’s called donating to the CCC and the AF. You don’t have to reinvent the wheel here.
Quicklinks cost a couple bucks max and mussies a few more dollars than that. There are much more important things to worry about.
That's exactly the point of why a locking carabiner was added on this anchor, to top rope through the carabiner, and not put any wear on the hooks.