Damn. It's been forever since I've seen this movie. I always love good actors who you watch and just believe. Guess I need to go and watch this movie again.
Apparently that happened with a soviet sub. They were dropping deph charges to try to force it to the surface. The submarine captain thought the Americans were trying to sink his ship and almost launched a nuke.
The scene is a good portrayal of ADM Anderson and SecDef McNamara's rather tense relationship. Anderson deeply resented what he saw as "civilian interference" in a strictly naval operation. However, the scene fails to fully represent the reality of the situation then on-going at sea. First off, only the day before, there were multiple reports of Soviet submarines shadowing the various USN warships in the vicinity of the quarantine line - this was the first report of such submarine activity in the area since the beginning of the crisis, so tensions were already high and nerves strained that evening. Secondly, the actual intelligence picture of where the Soviet merchant ships were at the time was far less precise than the film suggests, and McNamara's little tantrum (as shown here) was actually in a fairly private setting with just him and ADM Anderson and their immediate staffs present, and the tirade was more theoretical (about what the Admiral expected would occur the following morning when the Soviet ships actually reached the quarantine line) than about a specifically "disobedient" firing of starshells at the time of the event. The scene makes for good theater and accurately conveys the tense atmosphere and frayed nerves of the time, but it's inaccurate in a number of important details.
@@StephenKershaw1 No that's what you think based on this overly dramatic representation of an actor's portrayal of a screen writers story and a director's perspective of an incident which was wholly different in reality. McNamara openly questioned the accepted procedures and methods of identification for dealing with Soviet submarines. He did this in front of junior ranks and civilians without clearance, in the operations room as tensions were at their highest. Anderson asked for a private meeting in a side room to discuss the issue and McNamara took offense. Incidentally after Anderson explained the situation, McNamara made no suggestions or alterations to the RoE or chain of command procedures. No starshell was fired, no row in front of the men was made. Admiral Anderson was later commended for his handling of the blockade and was slated to become the next Chairman of the Joint Staffs. He featured on the front cover of Time as man of the hour, and I think that's where McNamara's ego, incompetence and arrogance went into top gear. He forced him out of contention for Chairman and into early retirement and then trashed the Admiral in his memoirs - like a coward. It's possible that with Admiral Anderson as the next Chairman, someone prepared to stand up to authority, the escalation of the Vietnam War may have been averted. As the Diem regime was falling apart, McNamara had taken General Maxwell D Taylor out of retirement to advise the President directly. He had good relations with the Kennedy family. This caused huge disruption to the decision making process of the Joint Chiefs, Security Council, State, DoD and Cabinet - right when the way ahead needed clear thinking. The US Army CoS Gen. Johnson, US Navy COps McDonald, CIA Director McCone were all for a limited engagement policy and against Kennedy's Saigon coup - but McNamara went around the joint chiefs and Army and put his protege Westmorland in direct command of MACV. He then advised President Kennedy and Johnson he could keep the war under control with Westmorland, fighting it like a Detroit CEO with micromanagement OCD. And we know how that went, don't we. Costner can portray all the Generals and Admirals however he wants in his films, if it helps him with his JFK halo fixation - fine - but Cuba and Vietnam were their mistakes, not the Command Staff.
@@davidrendall7195 no, it's based on several books Ive read on the topic. Your presumptuous disposition is noted and also exposes you as naive and inexperienced.
@@StephenKershaw1 Which books? I've read McNamara's book 'In Retrospect' and that doesn't mention a shouting match in the ops room. From memory its not even mentioned like this in Robert Kennedy's Thirteen days - and that has to be taken with a piece of political salt. From Admiral Anderson's own papers "The Reminiscenses of Admiral George W. Anderson Jr, U.S. Navy (Retired)," He explained the Ops room story thus: "One incident occurred. We knew where one of these particular submarines was located. We had that information from the most highly classified intelligence that the navy had at the time. We were very anxious to preserve that intelligence, and very few people know about this type of intelligence. We had a destroyer sitting on top of this submarine. One evening, McNamara, [Roswell] Gilpatric, and an entourage of his press people came down to flag plot and, in the course of their interrogations, they asked why that destroyer was out of line. I sort of tried to pass it off because not only were there some of McNamara’s people there who were not cleared for this information, but some of my own watch officers were not cleared for it in the general area of the flag plot. After some discussion, I said to McNamara-he kept pressing me, ‘Come inside,’ and I took him into a littler inner sanctuary where only the people who had clearance for that particular type of classified information were permitted and I explained the whole thing to him and to his satisfaction, as well. He left, and we walked down the corridor, and I said: ‘Well, Mr. Secretary, you go back to your office and I’ll go to mine and we’ll take care of things,’ or words to that effect, which apparently was the wrong thing to say to somebody of McNamara’s personality." So from the memoirs of the two people involved in the incident, neither say it was as portrayed in the movie.
@@davidrendall7195 McNamar's The Fog of War absolutely covered this.... The Fourteenth Day by David G Coleman more than testified witness to the on-going feud. I get it. you didn't like someone responding to your presumptuous post and being dressed down publicly and you're looking for a feud. Grow a pair and act like a man for god's sake; Anderson was a weak man which was proven numerous times.
0:45 "Grozny, Grozny, this is the Destroyer Pierce of the United States of America. Do you read[🇷🇺]?" 0:50 "Grozny, Grozny, this is the Destroyer Pierce of the United States of America. Do you read[🇷🇺]?"
Wisdom is learning how to communicate with your adversary. Great wisdom is showing them that you love them so much that they’re no longer your adversary but now turned into a friend.
The Empowerment Center Church - No doubt, Love is best, but fear is generally more effective; after all, religion (Christianity included - though many Christians claim their Faith is not a “religion”, which it most assuredly is) more or less, is based on equal parts love, hope, and fear; remove one, and the rest falls apart...
The Empowerment Center Church - Love is rare because the recognition of it requires great innocence or great intelligence - or both; however, because it is so primal a sensation, nearly everyone understands fear. And let’s face it: not many people love their leaders or their bosses.
I watch these clips and I keep thinking about what Carl Sagan described MAD as: two guys standing hip deep in gasoline flicking matches at each other. We came pretty close to igniting the whole thing, didn't we?
I am not sure of the historical accuracy of the confrontation, however, both men were right in their points, but both would have been wrong for doing this in front of the personnel. The severe disrespect and disparaging language used against the Admiral would have been severally bad for morale and would have undermined the chain of command in the room and beyond. The Admiral, by disagreeing so vehemently in public with the SecDef would have been seen as being too overly aggressive. But, bottom line, both men should have held the disagreement out of sight and ear range. I have heard of hellatious fights between officers and their civilian counter parts but, out in front of the troops you are shoulder to shoulder.
That f*cking admiral should have faced a severe reprimand for disrespecting civilian command of the military. This must be for dramatic effect because he was WAY OUT OF LINE.
They were using their gun in urgency, those disparaging language toward the Admiral was needed. Chain of command be damned if miscommunication resulted in 3rd WW.
@@hanscumyeah4216 admiral Anderson got appointed after the crisis ended to be ambassador to Portugal until June 1st 1966 then in 1970 he got appointment to the intelligence advisory board that post lasted until 1976 when he retired
Amazing movie, watched it the other day. One thing I have noticed and maybe you people out there can clarify, 4-5 seconds into this clip, do you hear what sounds like a laser blast from Star Wars?
What's the translation for the warning they're giving the Soviets at 0:44? Is it along the lines of "stop or heave to, we intend to board you" like it is in another navy show I've seen called Sea Patrol?
He seems to just be stating who they are, something along the lines of “Grozny, Grozny, this the Destroyer Pierce, of the United States of America, over”
I seriously doubt this occurred and if it did it’s Insane a Secretary of State has no business ordering around a fucking admiral conducting a blockade this important. And it morons like McNamara here who are bringing American down, talking about this isn’t a blockade it’s language a new vocabulary the likes of which the world has never seen it’s Kennedy communicating with the soviets. NO ITS A BLOCKADE and yes it’s a way for Kennedy to communicate but it’s something that’s been done over and over again for thousands of years, not some new way for one leader to tell another you aren’t getting by here without our approval
I'm sure people had nightmares then. A single miscalculation would have been all it would have taken to plunge the world back into the stone age. We are in a similar situation today, perhaps worse. War in Europe, A major nuclear power run by one man who may be ill. Three nuclear powers and 30+ countries supplying weapons to the underdog nation. Disinformation rampant. With so many moving parts and with so much death hanging on every decision, the situation is primed for miscalculation. We can only hope that there will one day be a movie about this time, and not pictures of it scratched into the wall of a cave.
@@cooperdefrenne5790 ...Thanks, but it's been a year now for this war . I've had a few vivid nightmares filled with fire and radiation. Still, I can't say that we should stop arming Ukraine. It's hard to say no to people who have tasted democracy and who fight to keep it. But the deadliness of the weapons escalates. Main battle tanks are going, maybe soon fighter jets. Nuclear threats have been heard. Both sides see an absolute necessity of winning. I don't take the Bible as literally true. Still, this all has a feeling of biblical Armageddon. I'm not a praying man, but I have been praying. There must be a creative way out of this war, but I don't see anything in the world that looks like a fresh road to peace. I don't see it, but it's what I pray for.
I sincerely doubt McNamara's assertion that President Kennedy wasn't clear with his intentions in his signed orders and ROE. As a naval officer, with combat experience, he would've well understand what "firing on" another vessel actually means. McNamara was out of his depth in this scene and acted like a complete clown.
I dont think combat experience has anything to do with the significance of this scene... as already expressed by the admiral's lack of understanding in this situation. The point is that every action, regardless of ROE, must be taken with the highest of intention in mind. Preventing a nuclear holocaust is of the highest importance and mistakenly agitating the enemy with ROE approved flares is something an admiral should be able to discern
Yeah, now imagine if, as Namara said, the enemy so to speak was not aware about that "difference" and it would have actually started a nuclear war because as we now know today there have been soviet submarines in that area of which some had nuclear torpedoes which the captains had access to and the order to use if they saw them self threatened. In fact we also know today, that it almost happend. A captain of a soviet submarine, the B-59 was ready to lunch a torpedo. However it required the agreement of the three most senior officers and one of them, Vasily Arkhipov, opposed the lunch. So maybe sometimes having a "clown" with you isn't such a bad thing.
President Kennedy directly and explicitly told the Admiral there would be no firing at all without his explicit orders, and the Admiral chose to go around it by taking a lawyerly approach to the written order. He was lucky not to be fired and court marshaled for this breach of command.
The admiral tried to argue semantics in a time where the mere intent of an act could have wildly altered the course of events. The admiral was wrong and knew it but he chose that hill to die on anyway.
Get out of my way Mr. Secretary. Man , how I love that. Today that is what American farmers should be saying to the Secretary of Agriculture, because he wants to eventually rule and regulate farmers to the bone using the excuse that it is all good for the climate. The climate change initiative baloney.
I can see how the expansion of NATO would seem provocative to Russia, and yet I also see why nearly all of the former Warsaw Pact plus Soviet Republics wanted in, and how the Russian invasion of Ukraine only justifies their distrust of Russia, but there’s a lot of that going around (distrust). Just watched the season 2 finale of “For All Mankind” (dropped about a year ago, but saw it March-April 2022) was chilling - like this movie. Two parties - neither really wanting a war that would rapidly escalate out for control - desperately groping for a way out, while appearing strong & resolute for their respective people.
The Monroe doctrine demanded that Europe never colonize the America's. It wasn't a claim that the US could invade, which is what Russia is doing in Ukraine.
@@MikeKBar13 Read President Kennedy's words from September 13, 1962 when he stated that an offensive threat from Cuba would be dealt in any manner it sees fit.
This is what happens when civilians who have never served a day in the military think they can command a military situation. Fortunately for us, JFK HAD served in the military during WW2, and had a clear mind as to the Naval implications of what was going on in the waters around Cuba. This why I firmly believe that the only qualification that should matter for a presidential nomination is a military background.
Why exactly is a military background more essential for effectively leading a country during military situations, than an economics one in leading during peace times?
@@benrae6337 You can learn economics from advisers and books, but you cant learn how to think militarily from a command perspective unless you've actually done it. JFK may not have exactly been well rounded in terms of grasping the domestic side of things, but he certainly knew how to approach a tense situation involving the use of military force, which ultimately proved most fortunate for us and the world.
Mc Namara was a somewhat hawk/dove in the cold war. Especially during the Cuban missile Crisis. he had been a subordinate to Gen Curtis LeMay towards the end of WW 2. He instituted the 'Firebombing" of Japan to help end the war in the Pacific. Unfortunately, the US had exhausted the amount of incendiaries then. Which probably saved Japan from a total antihalation.
The Admiral was correct he knows what he is doing and needs to be free to do his job. That’s how you loose wars and battles by allowing non-military personnel to oversee and interfere with military operations. The Secretary of State has zero business telling an admiral how to conduct a blockade and this was a blockade
We have a civilian led military and the president is commander-in-chief of the armed forces when they are called into service. The admiral should not be countermanding the president's orders or expressed wishes unless he is looking for early retirement.
Now I don't know if the feelings reflected in the movie are the same. The Joint Chiefs wanted to invade Cuba and mostly looked down on Kennedy. Assuming that was the CNO Adm Anderson, McNamara forced him to retire following the crisis.
Thankfully I have this movie on DVD. I've seen it many times. It never gets old. This is one of the greatest scenes. Thank you.
JOHN PAUL JONES! That never gets old
"John Paul Jones!!" makes me laugh everytime
I laugh at that too!!! 😂😂😂😂 I even laughed when he ran up on Admiral saying “STOP THAT FIRING!”
John Paul Jones is the bass player for Led Zeppelin.
He is such a good actor. "What if they made the same mistake I did" although that doesn't sound like McNamara
ua-cam.com/video/dbgOACJpZg0/v-deo.html
0:30 That actor is great!
Damn. It's been forever since I've seen this movie. I always love good actors who you watch and just believe. Guess I need to go and watch this movie again.
@@lowtdave everyone except Costner, he was horrible especially the bad attempt at a Boston accent.
this is where everything can pear shaped very quickly if warning shots are mistaken for aggression
Apparently that happened with a soviet sub. They were dropping deph charges to try to force it to the surface. The submarine captain thought the Americans were trying to sink his ship and almost launched a nuke.
He ran up on admiral and said “STOP THAT FIRING!” 😂😂
The scene is a good portrayal of ADM Anderson and SecDef McNamara's rather tense relationship. Anderson deeply resented what he saw as "civilian interference" in a strictly naval operation. However, the scene fails to fully represent the reality of the situation then on-going at sea. First off, only the day before, there were multiple reports of Soviet submarines shadowing the various USN warships in the vicinity of the quarantine line - this was the first report of such submarine activity in the area since the beginning of the crisis, so tensions were already high and nerves strained that evening. Secondly, the actual intelligence picture of where the Soviet merchant ships were at the time was far less precise than the film suggests, and McNamara's little tantrum (as shown here) was actually in a fairly private setting with just him and ADM Anderson and their immediate staffs present, and the tirade was more theoretical (about what the Admiral expected would occur the following morning when the Soviet ships actually reached the quarantine line) than about a specifically "disobedient" firing of starshells at the time of the event. The scene makes for good theater and accurately conveys the tense atmosphere and frayed nerves of the time, but it's inaccurate in a number of important details.
the admiral should have been relieved of duty immediately... ego, incompetence, arrogance...
@@StephenKershaw1 No that's what you think based on this overly dramatic representation of an actor's portrayal of a screen writers story and a director's perspective of an incident which was wholly different in reality.
McNamara openly questioned the accepted procedures and methods of identification for dealing with Soviet submarines. He did this in front of junior ranks and civilians without clearance, in the operations room as tensions were at their highest.
Anderson asked for a private meeting in a side room to discuss the issue and McNamara took offense. Incidentally after Anderson explained the situation, McNamara made no suggestions or alterations to the RoE or chain of command procedures. No starshell was fired, no row in front of the men was made.
Admiral Anderson was later commended for his handling of the blockade and was slated to become the next Chairman of the Joint Staffs. He featured on the front cover of Time as man of the hour, and I think that's where McNamara's ego, incompetence and arrogance went into top gear. He forced him out of contention for Chairman and into early retirement and then trashed the Admiral in his memoirs - like a coward.
It's possible that with Admiral Anderson as the next Chairman, someone prepared to stand up to authority, the escalation of the Vietnam War may have been averted.
As the Diem regime was falling apart, McNamara had taken General Maxwell D Taylor out of retirement to advise the President directly. He had good relations with the Kennedy family. This caused huge disruption to the decision making process of the Joint Chiefs, Security Council, State, DoD and Cabinet - right when the way ahead needed clear thinking.
The US Army CoS Gen. Johnson, US Navy COps McDonald, CIA Director McCone were all for a limited engagement policy and against Kennedy's Saigon coup - but McNamara went around the joint chiefs and Army and put his protege Westmorland in direct command of MACV. He then advised President Kennedy and Johnson he could keep the war under control with Westmorland, fighting it like a Detroit CEO with micromanagement OCD.
And we know how that went, don't we.
Costner can portray all the Generals and Admirals however he wants in his films, if it helps him with his JFK halo fixation - fine - but Cuba and Vietnam were their mistakes, not the Command Staff.
@@davidrendall7195 no, it's based on several books Ive read on the topic. Your presumptuous disposition is noted and also exposes you as naive and inexperienced.
@@StephenKershaw1 Which books? I've read McNamara's book 'In Retrospect' and that doesn't mention a shouting match in the ops room. From memory its not even mentioned like this in Robert Kennedy's Thirteen days - and that has to be taken with a piece of political salt.
From Admiral Anderson's own papers "The Reminiscenses of Admiral George W. Anderson Jr, U.S. Navy (Retired)," He explained the Ops room story thus:
"One incident occurred. We knew where one of these particular submarines was located. We had that information from the most highly classified intelligence that the navy had at the time. We were very anxious to preserve that intelligence, and very few people know about this type of intelligence. We had a destroyer sitting on top of this submarine.
One evening, McNamara, [Roswell] Gilpatric, and an entourage of his press people came down to flag plot and, in the course of their interrogations, they asked why that destroyer was out of line. I sort of tried to pass it off because not only were there some of McNamara’s people there who were not cleared for this information, but some of my own watch officers were not cleared for it in the general area of the flag plot. After some discussion, I said to McNamara-he kept pressing me, ‘Come inside,’ and I took him into a littler inner sanctuary where only the people who had clearance for that particular type of classified information were permitted and I explained the whole thing to him and to his satisfaction, as well.
He left, and we walked down the corridor, and I said: ‘Well, Mr. Secretary, you go back to your office and I’ll go to mine and we’ll take care of things,’ or words to that effect, which apparently was the wrong thing to say to somebody of McNamara’s personality."
So from the memoirs of the two people involved in the incident, neither say it was as portrayed in the movie.
@@davidrendall7195 McNamar's The Fog of War absolutely covered this....
The Fourteenth Day by David G Coleman more than testified witness to the on-going feud.
I get it. you didn't like someone responding to your presumptuous post and being dressed down publicly and you're looking for a feud.
Grow a pair and act like a man for god's sake; Anderson was a weak man which was proven numerous times.
0:45 "Grozny, Grozny, this is the Destroyer Pierce of the United States of America. Do you read[🇷🇺]?" 0:50 "Grozny, Grozny, this is the Destroyer Pierce of the United States of America. Do you read[🇷🇺]?"
I would have liked more from this scene... "this is language" is such a brilliant line.
This movie never got half of the accolades it deserved.
Wisdom is learning how to communicate with your adversary. Great wisdom is showing them that you love them so much that they’re no longer your adversary but now turned into a friend.
❤️ 💕 Love don’t feed the wolf... 🐺
Don’t be so naive, authoritarian rulers see love as weakness to be exploited, nothing else.
@@5133937 love always protects (1st Corinthians 13:6-7) it is not naive to place one’s hope in something noble, just and righteous.
The Empowerment Center Church - No doubt, Love is best, but fear is generally more effective; after all, religion (Christianity included - though many Christians claim their Faith is not a “religion”, which it most assuredly is) more or less, is based on equal parts love, hope, and fear; remove one, and the rest falls apart...
The Empowerment Center Church - Love is rare because the recognition of it requires great innocence or great intelligence - or both; however, because it is so primal a sensation, nearly everyone understands fear. And let’s face it: not many people love their leaders or their bosses.
be happy nixon wasnt in the whitehouse.
Nixon was a great diplomat actually.
Eine der besten Szenen im ganzen Film.
I watch these clips and I keep thinking about what Carl Sagan described MAD as: two guys standing hip deep in gasoline flicking matches at each other.
We came pretty close to igniting the whole thing, didn't we?
"Came"? Putin's made active threats to use nuclear weapons unilaterally over a regional conventional war.
We're still pretty close, though not as close as this
I am not sure of the historical accuracy of the confrontation, however, both men were right in their points, but both would have been wrong for doing this in front of the personnel. The severe disrespect and disparaging language used against the Admiral would have been severally bad for morale and would have undermined the chain of command in the room and beyond. The Admiral, by disagreeing so vehemently in public with the SecDef would have been seen as being too overly aggressive. But, bottom line, both men should have held the disagreement out of sight and ear range. I have heard of hellatious fights between officers and their civilian counter parts but, out in front of the troops you are shoulder to shoulder.
That f*cking admiral should have faced a severe reprimand for disrespecting civilian command of the military. This must be for dramatic effect because he was WAY OUT OF LINE.
This confrontation did happen and Anderson got removed
They were using their gun in urgency, those disparaging language toward the Admiral was needed. Chain of command be damned if miscommunication resulted in 3rd WW.
@@hanscumyeah4216 admiral Anderson got appointed after the crisis ended to be ambassador to Portugal until June 1st 1966 then in 1970 he got appointment to the intelligence advisory board that post lasted until 1976 when he retired
You try dealing with incompetent civilian govt officials…
This was a movie not a documentary
McNamara was good at competing with egg timers.
“In a nuclear world true enemy cannot be destroyed… In a nuclear world true enemy is war itself”. - Denzel Washington-Crimson Tide
The only quibble I have with showing the destroyer going to battle stations is that they loaded a blue drill rd instead of a live rd
McNamara sounds like Sylvester the Cat from the “Looney Tunes” cartoons.
Especially as he gets more agitated. xD
@@CaptainSeato AMEN BROTHER!!! 😂😂. There’s a GREAT book about the 1962 Cuban Missle Crisis entitled “One Minute To Midnight.” GREAT book!!!
Hilarious
Suffering sucatash
The Admiral acts like Elmer Fudd.
I think in order to be defense secretary you have to be in military longer than what Robert McNamara was in
1:13 that alarm just triggered me so hard.
John Paul Jones!
1:01
If it’s like Star Trek then it’s “Red Alert, Red Alert! All hands man your battle stations!”!
Amazing movie, watched it the other day. One thing I have noticed and maybe you people out there can clarify, 4-5 seconds into this clip, do you hear what sounds like a laser blast from Star Wars?
Haha yer it does sound like that
John Paul Jones? Great bass line on The Lemon Song.
Not many will get the Led Zeppelin reference.
What's the translation for the warning they're giving the Soviets at 0:44? Is it along the lines of "stop or heave to, we intend to board you" like it is in another navy show I've seen called Sea Patrol?
He seems to just be stating who they are, something along the lines of “Grozny, Grozny, this the Destroyer Pierce, of the United States of America, over”
What's the watch JFK (Bruce Greenwood) wears in this movie?
This is language…..
...the language of micro-management and being lucky.
@@CaptainSeato
I’ve heard it said, “ it’s better to be lucky than good”
I seriously doubt this occurred and if it did it’s Insane a Secretary of State has no business ordering around a fucking admiral conducting a blockade this important. And it morons like McNamara here who are bringing American down, talking about this isn’t a blockade it’s language a new vocabulary the likes of which the world has never seen it’s Kennedy communicating with the soviets. NO ITS A BLOCKADE and yes it’s a way for Kennedy to communicate but it’s something that’s been done over and over again for thousands of years, not some new way for one leader to tell another you aren’t getting by here without our approval
Come on...what Admiral back in the 60's wouldn't be all in favor of a war...boys with toys...
The Pearce was played by the USS Joseph P. Kennedy Jr.
If the soviets retaliated...WW III!
They almost started a huge war ....with Russia
No. Russia almost started a huge war with America.
They loaded blue shells into the breech.
Want to be amused - Read McNamara’s biography for Self Service - Especially about Vietnam ? EGO EXTREMIS !
We are kidding ourselves what did he mean by that ? Was he for this or against it ?
Full movie is free on UA-cam
Good!!! Thats the way is should/must Always be! Make them ALL free, damn it (seriously).....or most of them at the very least.........
I'm sure people had nightmares then. A single miscalculation would have been all it would have taken to plunge the world back into the stone age. We are in a similar situation today, perhaps worse. War in Europe, A major nuclear power run by one man who may be ill. Three nuclear powers and 30+ countries supplying weapons to the underdog nation. Disinformation rampant. With so many moving parts and with so much death hanging on every decision, the situation is primed for miscalculation.
We can only hope that there will one day be a movie about this time, and not pictures of it scratched into the wall of a cave.
Well said
@@cooperdefrenne5790 ...Thanks, but it's been a year now for this war . I've had a few vivid nightmares filled with fire and radiation. Still, I can't say that we should stop arming Ukraine. It's hard to say no to people who have tasted democracy and who fight to keep it.
But the deadliness of the weapons escalates. Main battle tanks are going, maybe soon fighter jets. Nuclear threats have been heard. Both sides see an absolute necessity of winning.
I don't take the Bible as literally true. Still, this all has a feeling of biblical Armageddon. I'm not a praying man, but I have been praying. There must be a creative way out of this war, but I don't see anything in the world that looks like a fresh road to peace. I don't see it, but it's what I pray for.
Can never trust the brass hats.
I sincerely doubt McNamara's assertion that President Kennedy wasn't clear with his intentions in his signed orders and ROE. As a naval officer, with combat experience, he would've well understand what "firing on" another vessel actually means.
McNamara was out of his depth in this scene and acted like a complete clown.
I dont think combat experience has anything to do with the significance of this scene... as already expressed by the admiral's lack of understanding in this situation. The point is that every action, regardless of ROE, must be taken with the highest of intention in mind. Preventing a nuclear holocaust is of the highest importance and mistakenly agitating the enemy with ROE approved flares is something an admiral should be able to discern
your statement demonstrates why the military should always ultimately be under the authority of civilians.
Yeah, now imagine if, as Namara said, the enemy so to speak was not aware about that "difference" and it would have actually started a nuclear war because as we now know today there have been soviet submarines in that area of which some had nuclear torpedoes which the captains had access to and the order to use if they saw them self threatened. In fact we also know today, that it almost happend. A captain of a soviet submarine, the B-59 was ready to lunch a torpedo. However it required the agreement of the three most senior officers and one of them, Vasily Arkhipov, opposed the lunch.
So maybe sometimes having a "clown" with you isn't such a bad thing.
President Kennedy directly and explicitly told the Admiral there would be no firing at all without his explicit orders, and the Admiral chose to go around it by taking a lawyerly approach to the written order. He was lucky not to be fired and court marshaled for this breach of command.
The admiral tried to argue semantics in a time where the mere intent of an act could have wildly altered the course of events. The admiral was wrong and knew it but he chose that hill to die on anyway.
Close as we have ever come.....
Another pro Kennedy movie
and why wouldn't you be pro Kennedy? The guy helped save the world...
Spelled the beginning of the end for Khrushchev.
Another dmbfk hawk.
It is a pro Kennedy film ,but then again ,how do you make a pro Bush film? By compiling videos of a million people in Iraq dying?
@@mcds54 He setup this whole crisis with Bay of Pigs
Highly likely this conversation never happened.
Let me handle this!
Get out of my way Mr. Secretary. Man , how I love that. Today that is what American farmers should be saying to the Secretary of Agriculture, because he wants to eventually rule and regulate farmers to the bone using the excuse that it is all good for the climate. The climate change initiative baloney.
I bet this nonsensical exchange never happened
But portraying actually being on the edge on Armageddon isn't dramatic enough for Hollywood types......
Dear mr. Secretary , go back to the auto industry from whence you came and get out of our way. 😋🤪
When he was at Ford, McNamara gave the world the Edsel.
Let that sink in.
The movie should be called how Kennedy almost ended the world.
Kennedy didn't put in sneak-attack missiles in Cuba.
Monroe Doctrine in play ? Sort of how Russia feels about the Ukraine ? 🧐
I can see how the expansion of NATO would seem provocative to Russia, and yet I also see why nearly all of the former Warsaw Pact plus Soviet Republics wanted in, and how the Russian invasion of Ukraine only justifies their distrust of Russia, but there’s a lot of that going around (distrust). Just watched the season 2 finale of “For All Mankind” (dropped about a year ago, but saw it March-April 2022) was chilling - like this movie. Two parties - neither really wanting a war that would rapidly escalate out for control - desperately groping for a way out, while appearing strong & resolute for their respective people.
The Monroe doctrine demanded that Europe never colonize the America's. It wasn't a claim that the US could invade, which is what Russia is doing in Ukraine.
@@MikeKBar13 Read President Kennedy's words from September 13, 1962 when he stated that an offensive threat from Cuba would be dealt in any manner it sees fit.
Geopolitics is ultimately gangster shit.
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This is what happens when civilians who have never served a day in the military think they can command a military situation. Fortunately for us, JFK HAD served in the military during WW2, and had a clear mind as to the Naval implications of what was going on in the waters around Cuba. This why I firmly believe that the only qualification that should matter for a presidential nomination is a military background.
But the film also illustrates what would happen if the military men themselves had the final say.
What are you talking about. McNamara served in the Air Force in WW2
@@thelargefart Not in command of anything. He was a numbers cruncher.
Why exactly is a military background more essential for effectively leading a country during military situations, than an economics one in leading during peace times?
@@benrae6337 You can learn economics from advisers and books, but you cant learn how to think militarily from a command perspective unless you've actually done it. JFK may not have exactly been well rounded in terms of grasping the domestic side of things, but he certainly knew how to approach a tense situation involving the use of military force, which ultimately proved most fortunate for us and the world.
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Mc Namara was a somewhat hawk/dove in the cold war. Especially during the Cuban missile Crisis. he had been a subordinate to Gen Curtis LeMay towards the end of WW 2. He instituted the 'Firebombing" of Japan to help end the war in the Pacific. Unfortunately, the US had exhausted the amount of incendiaries then. Which probably saved Japan from a total antihalation.
The Admiral was correct he knows what he is doing and needs to be free to do his job. That’s how you loose wars and battles by allowing non-military personnel to oversee and interfere with military operations. The Secretary of State has zero business telling an admiral how to conduct a blockade and this was a blockade
McNamara was secretary of defense, and I believe he would be in his place to advise the admiral.
We have a civilian led military and the president is commander-in-chief of the armed forces when they are called into service. The admiral should not be countermanding the president's orders or expressed wishes unless he is looking for early retirement.
Now I don't know if the feelings reflected in the movie are the same. The Joint Chiefs wanted to invade Cuba and mostly looked down on Kennedy. Assuming that was the CNO Adm Anderson, McNamara forced him to retire following the crisis.
@@jackpavlik563 Isn't Secretary of Defense only second to the President with the armed forces?
hilarious opinion to hold given that hindsight clearly shows the politicians were in the right