I believe you are using the Pell Seat incorrectly. The tapered end is designed for correcting deformed skirts. The round end is for seating. In your video, you showed seating with the tapered end, not the round end...
You are using the pellseat wrong... The pointed part is just to get the pellet in the barrel without pushing on the skirt which could deform it. Once you get almost flush turn it around and seat it flush with the round end which expands the skirt to seal it into the grooves of the rifling. Notice that your homemade ball bearing looks an awful lot like the back end of the pellseat?
@Jeremy C I also noticed this, also it appears that this pushes the pellet down inside the barrel a little too far, which to my mind could render the overall "power" a bit less as it allows for a "cushioning" or compression effect? I have only ever pushed mine in as far as the skirt?? Ahem :)>
Good video. Personally I'll just use my thumb to seat the pellet until it makes contact with the bore. With a springer the pellet acts as the pressure release valve. When the piston has travelled halfway down the compression tube the pressure has gone from 1bar to 2bar, three quarters of the way 2bar to 4 bar, seven eighths of the way 4bar to 8 bar and so on until the pressure is great enough to start to overcome the resistance of the pellet to enter the bore, then the pellet enters the bore, deforming evenly to fit the rifling grooves and effect a seal and can then move more easily down the bore and acceleration begins. The gun is designed for this to happen almost at the end of the stroke and the massive build up of pressure is cushioning the piston. The compressed air expands to fire the pellet. If you seat the pellet firmly enough such that it is in the rifling grooves the pellet will move sooner, the piston won't be slowed at the end of the stroke as it should be and that is why on one rifle you felt it slamming.
I've used a huge variety of pellets and found that you can find the sweet spot, so to speak, with my thumb by feeling it out. I also have a variety of air pistols and rifles including pneumatic rifles and each of them have different "feels" to them when seating the ammunition. I think it comes sort of naturally or intuitively as one uses their gun.
I seat my pellets for two reasons: A. Seating ensures that pellets are deep enough so that no lead is sheared off when closing the breach. That keeps the gun cleaner and results in every pellet retaining all the weight it was manufactured in. That alone should contribute to accuracy by being consistent. B. Seating guarantees that each pellet starts at exactly the same depth which also contributes to accuracy. Power really isnt an issue for me. The gun was designed a certain way and theres little improvement one can make over that which will result in materially better performance. I also dislike pushing mechanical items of any kind beyond its design limits. Ive used an Air Venturi seater as well as an old pen. They both work equally well.
Good video Nigel - Haven't shot airguns now for at least a year, have moved on to rimfire and am progressing to full bore - but after this came up in my video feed I might have to brush off the old SMK 19 - Thanks for the clear and concise content. Cheers, Matt
+Project1312 well, I'm glad this video has inspired you to get back into air power! I have an ARC tuned XS19 and that particular rifle benefits from pellet seating, funnily enough. (It's a .22). ATB, Nige
I like break barrels. It’s so easy and quick to use unlike pumps or PCP and HPA, it’s tedious, and tasky. Break barrel you just grab that rifle, break it open, insert pellet, aim, shoot. No worries about pumping, or air in tank of PCP or HPA.
I have a crossman tr77 nps. Every pellet I've tried, except daisy flat heads, have not fired. When I place them in the breach and fire it makes a deep ssssss sound. I tried seating the pellets and it works perfectly. I can get groups of 5 pellets in one centimetre with my crossman destroyers and daisy hollow points. The daisy flat heads shot without seating are terrible. I can't get a group smaller than the palm of my hand. I shot them at wax blocks and they just barely stayed in. I began testing with seating the flatheads and they performed amazingly. They have much deeper penetration and are much more accurate. Thank you for this video.
I have zero experience with pellet seaters but looking at the beeman tool design makes me feel like it is being used incorrectly. Just a guess, the ball at one end is for seating, and the taper tool at the other end is for truing up the flange on misshapen pellets.
I made my own pellet seater for both 1.77 and 22 cal and making that slight taper at the breach my pellets go in about 1 mm deeper than flush and I find much more consistency in acuracy and power than just pushing them in.. the pellet seats into the rifling and so all the air is now used to propel the pellet instead of at the start the air must first squeeze the pellet into seat before it goes on its merry way..as long as the pellet is not pushed too deep down seating a pellet works for me every time 😉👍.. it also sorts out any deform that can be found it pellet skirts from time to time
I don't think that you've gone "Buh ~ Nah ~ Nuz" I appreciate all of the great info, plus the time spent recording and documenting. I have subbed to your channel. Thanks a lot, sir.
What I have found is that if you only use the ball end of the Beeman tool (I've had mine since 1980!) you will get the same results as your ball bearing tool. The whole Idea is to smooth the skirt of the pellet out so it is in contact with the Chamber all the way around. Then you are assured of getting a perfect seal when the pellet is pushed down the barrel by the Air.
A properly sized ball bearing does the job nicely. One thing to remember is that during seating with a tool of any kind its possible to shear off some lead from the skirt. Make sure you look for that and remove it or risk having it pushed into the barrel and destroying accuracy for subsequent shots.
Great informative video. I'm personally a Crossman 1377 American classic (fully modified w/ 19 inch barrel and rifle stock , ++++) and Benjamin multipump .22 advocate. I upgraded the bolts in both rifles to seat my pellets better than stock. I have found that the skirts of stock Beeman domed hunting pellets seat better than the skirts on stock Crossman domed hunting pellets. But the crossman's are a harder lead that penetrate deeper. P.s. real rifle projectiles in .177 and .22 fit, and work. FMJ, FMJHP. They just don't give good expansion,but they hit hard.
flush with the breach, anything else is to sell fancy gadgets to put pellets into your gun. I did a similar test with multiple rifles and pellets, tested a black hawk elite, hatsan 95, hatsan 135, benjamin prowler, benjamin titan. Pretty much the same result as yours. Biggest difference I noticed in accuracy and consistency was related to weight of pellet, pellet shape, how it fit in the breech (some are tighter than others) and of course the biggest variable for springers was hold/shooting technique.
I'm mainly into full bore rifles, and rimfire, but I enjoyed this video, and similar ones, and it's given me the incentive to dust off my Weirauch HW35 in. .177 .i only use open sights, and so far, have found Wasp the most accurate. I'm having as much fun tinkering with my HW35, as I do when I work up reloads for my 270 or 300 WM. I may even post a video myself.
I'm glad the gamo magnum has taken seating right out of the equation with the 10x clip. Sometimes not seating in the clip can cause misfire but is rare. Overall good and consistent
I have a Remington Tyrant which is very like the Webley you have here, and I have tried quite a few pellets, but in the end stick with H&N Excite spike, because they seat beautifully in the breech just with a thumb and give superb grouping results. I have looked at pellets I fired into water and they seem to have been immaculately engaged with the rifling also. I think that skirt is the key, all power used on firing as skirt is a good seal and smooth engagement down the barrel leading to consistency.
Been seating my pellets since I was a teenager in my springer. I never thought as to why exactly, but I did.. Fast forward 20 years and I actually visually noticed the increase in velocity by observing the pellets stuck in the blocks of my wall behind the target. All the seated pellets were noticeably flatter than the pellets simply seated with a finger. I figured it was due to forming the rifling into the pellet skirt causing a significant enough decrease in bore friction without compromising the actual seat seal.. Just my thoughts.. Maybe I am wrong.
The only thing I could say would be that if a "pellet seater" what ever kind would or could remove some variation from using one's thumb, ie it would seat the pellet at a known distance every time but this is just a guess. I think the only way to test this is for several people to repeat it with same devices but also have the gun locked down to remove variation from shooter bias.
+joseph crivello Thanks Joseph. I put a lot of effort into my vids (being a professional journalist). Sadly, others are just happy to turn out rubbish and enjoy the fame they get from their virtual friends...
First vid of yours that I have seen, very well done. I can't stand vids where a pre-teen just shows what he is doing with gloves on and no explanation of what or why.
I've done a little experimenting myself and what I've found is certain pellets have a sweet spot for how far they are pushed in. Too far an accuracy goes down, not far enough and accuracy goes down. You get more flyers when the pellet is pushed to far that's for sure. (5mm and more is a no-no for me.) As it turns out about 1mm down is what I'm finding to be the best. And best here means fewest flyers and tightest groups. I don't have a chronograph, so I could not test that. HTH
Great video. My experience with pellet seating is however carful I'm when seating a pellet with deferent types of pellet seaters (homemade), the pellet skirt will get damaged! And that will effect the accuracy...
I've found that, pretty universally, having a way to seat a pellet into the breach no more than 3mm seems to be very consistent. Also eliminates the gas-seal problem.
AirgunTV No problem, though. Literally though, 3mm is as far as you want to go. Generally I stick with a plunger I made myself that will seat the end of the skirt 80 thousandths of an inch past the chamfer.
Hi. I have a Cometa Fenix 400 in .177. It came with a free tin of HN Baracudas at 11 grains, this is a very popular pellet with hunters where I'm from. Because of the large diameter of the pellet (head .177) I had real trouble getting them to seat flush in the breech without using my thumbnail, which indented the skirt. This affected accuracy as i would be guaranteed of flyers in every shot string. I tried JSB Exacts at 8.44 grains with a head diameter of .173, the pellets were much easier to seat flush in the barrel, and my accuracy improved tremendously. My two cents is that pellet head diameter affects the proper seating of pellets in the breech, which affects accuracy.
+walliack Thank you for that detailed information, walliack. It is true that a large-headed pellet will be difficult to thumb home into the rifling, and it could well lower the guns power due to increased friction - especially if the barrel is choked...
I've got an old Diana d2 and it's bore is just a bit of 177 it's like 4.7 mm and I've been using a pellet seater with smk thunderbolt pellets and it likes the recipe shall we say 😀
Great video 👍 and yes it gives it more power when one pushes the pellet in a little deeper.. Is like dieseling without oil making it dry dieseling ...👍
As mentioned in many comments, the ball shape helps create a better seal by pushing at the skirt. TL;DR in advance of wall of text: Don't push the pellets down the barrel. Use rounded part if using a Pell Seat, for the most part just aim to have the pellet seated so it is flush. If your piston is slamming, you are doing something wrong and will more than likely damage your gun if done repeatedly. ---- I want to toss out a theory where you mention a lack of air seal when pushing it far in. I do believe your gun is sealing as it should at the break, and I'm mentioning this as the wording could be confusing to some. By pushing the pellet so far in, not only is the travel distance to the end of the barrel slightly reduced, the skirt will also likely squish together a little, allowing easier travel through the barrel. Easier travel means the pellet is set in motion sooner than intended, there is less pressure in the chamber, the piston has not travelled as far as during normal use, and this is not a good thing. The piston is probably slamming in the chamber because the pellet is able to leave the barrel too soon, and once the pellet leaves the barrel, the barrel and chamber is no longer pressurized and there's nothing to hold back the piston from slamming. Ontop of that, whatever travel distance the piston has remaining once the pellet leaves the barrel, is lost, and that can be seen in the numbers listed, which appears to be around 10% which is fairly significant. It definitely seems favorable to just get the skirt nicely shaped to the barrel for a good seal, but using decent quality pellets and just seating it with your thumb is probably enough for any non competitive application. That way you're fairly sure it is firing as the manufacturer intended.
Never had much luck with pellet seating. I notice H&N .177 8.64gr. seat better than my JSB 8.44gr. in my HW97k. It appears that a tighter fitting pellet to bore size is the issue. Good video and approach to your experiments. I love that HW35E you had made with engraving, and barrel.
Good video sir. I was wondering. Which do you prefer? Spring pistons or gas pistons? Thanks in advance and I think I'm gonna make that tool you made with the ball bearing
I've tended to favour spring-powered piston rifles to gas-ram-powered pistons in the past, largely because I always felt there was a 'knack' at shooting gas-rams. However, there's clearly been a lot of development on the gas-ram system since the original inventors, the now-defunct Theoben, let the patent lapse. As a result, I find most of the modern-day breed of gas-rammers to have the same characteristics of a well-running springer. In fact, I'd chose a gas-ram model over a 'cheap 'n' cheerful' springer any day of the week nowadays!
@@AirgunTVJust as improperly using the wrong end of the Beeman tool to deep seat the pellet in the breech of a spring piston air rifle will decrease velocity.
This video sounds like an episode of "TOP GEAR" (British Edition) but for air rifles!!! Love the commentating or narrating or whatever you want to call it!!!
Thumb! I always have it with me and it's easy to use. My thumb is callused due to seating hundreds of pellets every week. I'm not a big hunter but I target shoot hours at a time. To seat a pellet properly with the thumb, push firmly on the pellet while rocking your thumb slightly side to side. With little practice, this way to seat a pellet becomes consistent and second nature.
A radio jack plug makes a good pellet seater i sent away for a factory made one and used and it pushed the pellet to far down the barrel and the guns accuracy became worse like you demonstrated when shooting my .177 Diana 34.
Nigel, I would also like to see the standard deviations and %RSD (100*standard deviation/average) from the power measurements. Rather than just looking at total power, the spread of the power measurements would be a more accurate evaluation. For instance, if the power did not improve but the %RSD did. This would show a more consistent power output even if it was lower.
Thanks for making another good video. I always try to push the pellet flush with my thumb, I found that, for .177, a 3.5mm headphone jack is reasonably good (but thumbs are easier) You definitely don't want the pellet pushed too far into the barrel, it enlarges the transfer port massively, increases the 'lost volume' and buggers up the compression ratio.
+Sherlock 1963 Thanks Sherlock. That's a good tip - the HP jack, not the thumb! - thanks. And, yes, you're right about the lost volume. That was clearly the problem with the PellSeat
If you use a golf tee and push it gently into the breech it leaves an ideal mark (leave a little extra to tune to your brand of pellet) then cut off the excess and seat your pellet just right.
Hi, just catching up with the vids. Can the bought pellet seating tool be used the other way round? It looks like the ball end is closer to the one you made
Pellet seaters are always used for accuracy, not power. I dont see any way for it to increase power. The other reason to use one is to ensure that the pellet is actually fully inserted into the breech. If any pellet skirt, even a small amount shows that lead will either be sheared off or squashed. You dont want lead building up around there. You want to leave it all on the pellet. Ive never been able to push a pellet fully in with my finger, so a pellet seater is a must afaic. I just use an old ball point pen tip. It works just fine. If the pen still works, nothing will happen to it. It can still be a pen. YMMV, FWIW, WFYB, JMHO, etc.
I think the take away here is to always ensure your pellets are seated exactly the same for the most consistent power and accuracy, the emphasis being consistency. As for the beeman pelseat what were they thinking?!
i seat my pellets with a .22rifire cartridge with a ball bearing glued in the end. in my experience it doesnt so much improve accuracy but it does improve consistency as all pellets are seated identically :)
Another very interesting video. See a few discussion on a few forums on this subject. Like your video has show it can be a bit mixed with the results, but unlike your video those trying it was using there preferred pellet and there was no mention of variations in power due to how the pellet was seated or how far into the breach the pellet was pushed. One one of the VHTV videos from a few years back Si Pittaway picked up a new Weihrauch (sadly I can't remember the model) from Sandwell Field Sports and Tony said to seat the pellet to get better accuracy was to push the pellet enough to leave an impression of the breach on your thumb.
Glad you enjoyed it d1gger. I deliberately chose pellets at random - I did want to use a lot more, but when I realised just how much shooting was involved (for arguably not more conclusive a result), I narrowed it down to the four brands which I had in both .177 and .22. I would add that the pellets I've found work best in my FWB are those that get seated by thumb - leaving an impression, like you said Tony at SFS has recommended. Then again, that could be because it's got the 'ideal' breech face chamfer. Results are mixed and, as I said in the video, you can't really say, universally, that there's a 'categorical' answer to the question of whether pellet seating is worth it or not. But you've got to try it, in my book, just to see... !!! Thanks for posting that information. ATB, Nige
There is no secret to this, the pellets have to be seated flush in the breach. There cannot be any gap between the pellet and the barrel. Always make sure your pellets skirt is not deformed. Accuracy comes with learning how to shoot your particular air rifle. I have a low powered Springer which i shoot and can stack those pellets at 10meters, you just have to do your part. 😎
Cheers buddy You cannot argue with science. The resistance that a thumb seated pellet adds to the velocity ..It adds resistance to the power stroke. Making higher#s at the final resort. I've proven it with the nitro piston. It shoots a wimpy shot with seated rounds. Good vid boss. Cheers from California....
I lube the pellet before seating, and they seem to fly faster. At 30 yards, there is a noticeable reduction it impact time. Not scientific, but seems to work for me. Also penetration is a lot better.
If the lubricant used is petrol based it is called dieseling and will effect speed and power very much! Use oil, not solvents or you will dissolve/damage the Oring. You may want to install a better o'ring for long term maintenance of rifle.
@ Gregory Lankford Actually dieselling does not make the projectile move any faster. It just gives a louder bang. Taofledermaus did a video on this and noticed the speed was consistent but the firing slightly more louder than normal.
I've found, In my own studies with my customized Benjamin trail NP pistol in .177 I've found that the lesser aerodynamic pellet (crosman pointed hollow points) to perform the best!!! at 30yrds.. well over all the exotic/ expensive ammo on the market. with the exception of the orange penetrators in 5.5grain weight.. and I use a homemade ball bearing seater... thanks to your info.. happy shooting😎
+Sudo Nym You are correct... except they were a variation. BTW, I designed them... when I was AGW's publisher! They also got given away on the sister magazine, Air Gunner. Nige
Why did you use the pointy end of the pellseat, when your homemade pellet seater clearly has a bearing (round) end? Why didn't you seat the pellets with the round end of the pellseat?
I use the ball end of the Beman pellet seating tool and not the pointed end, because of exactly what you described in your video. Also, instead of a ball-bearing on the end of the bolt, why not just use a semicircular crown nut?
+L.I. Archer Thanks for your comment. I haven't found the ball end of the PellSeat that effective (nor its other end!), but used it as a template for making my own; hence utilising a ball bearing (different sizes for different calibres). Hadn't thought of a crown nut; the BB just seemed a logical thing because I could easily get the right size (mentioned in earlier replies).
This actually Works for the power first i shot a thick old leather wallet it did not even go half way through then i pushed it in with a pen and it went all the way through.
I reckoned that some cheaper shot were not all the same fit, the snugger fitting ones were a lot more accurate than the ever so slightly easier fitting ones, I reckon the snug fit ones rifle better leading to better accuracy
Thanks Mr Shoto. Not so sure as to the 'conclusion' on pellet seating being quite so clear, though!!!! :D PS: Initially, I was going to try it with a load more brands of pellets... but it was SUCH A LOT OF SHOOTING (!!!) that I ended up settling on just four brands in the two calibres... Good job I enjoy all this kinda testing malarkey, isn't it?!!!
Your video piqued my interest as it reminds me when I seat center fire bullets. It appears that you get the accuracy with your ball bearing pellet seater. You beveled, slightly, the mouth of the breach. So when the pellet is seated, is the pellet seated just slightly below the flush level of the beach? Thanks for the upload.
That is SO true superowl... although once you work out if pellet seating DOES make a difference to either your power or accuracy, you end up not having as much confidence in it as you used to!!! But I give your comment a, erm... thumbs-up!!! ;)
I have been seating my pellets for years..most of the cheaper air rifles you will hear and feel a thud as the piston bottoms out ,,however I made a pellet pusher out of a tapered centre punch with a brass washer pushed tightly on the taper of the punch ,thru trail and error I can finally can say it makes a big difference only because it does not push the pellet too far in only enough to reduce the friction at the start of the piston moving forward ,but maintains enough air pressure to widen the skirt of the pellet thus grabbing the rifling,,the only pellet I find where this is not worth doing is with the quality of RWS pellets
+Mack Durr I probably wouldn't go so far as to say 'dry firing' it, but over-seating would certainly cause a more violent bottoming of the piston due to a lack of pressure build-up.
I would have collected more data w/ more shots. Dude should have done 3 sets of 3s. People assume "power" and speed equals better. It's not. It's all about finding the sweet spot for the gun and pellets. Each set up is different but there's always a spectral sweet spot on air rifles. 800-900 fps is usually good for .177 -.22 because the pellets, (being air driven) begin to swirl around the 70yrd mark. due to the wave tunnel behind the skirts. Lol, mine 177s are still super tight at 60-70 yrds tho.
i think the pellet only must seated deep enough ,so the skirt gets inside the barrel ,and will not destroyed bij closing the barrel or by the pressure and jou can test a pellet before shooting ,try the pellet head fit in the muzzle of the barrel ,if its a loose fit dont bother shooting them.
Don't know if you'll a swer this but I bought some .177 copper pellets but they won't fit in my pellet gun wutch if .177. They are 10 gr. Could that be the problem?
Im shooting with a gamo gas piston air rifle with the pellet seated it shoots tighter grups then just pushing it in with your thumb i made my own seater wich seats them good
+James Denny Thanks for the advice, James. I have used it in the past, but find that it 'splays' the skirt too much. Also, it's really only suited to the one calibre; i have a DIY tool for each calibre (which I perhaps should have pointed out in the video) - a 5/16" BB for .22 and a 9/32" BB for .177 pellets.
i shoot lead free pba platinum out my air rifle and they go 1400 feet per second so if i do this method of loading them that bring it up what 100 more feet per second?.
So what you're saying is, skip the seater and just grind a small bevel into the breach end of the barrel. PS: this is also a great tip for PCP rifles because it doesn't damage your o-rings.
Just today I tried it out. I had a lot of fliers. I used my thumb a 22rimfire bullet and the side of a knife.what size bearing did you use for the 22 pellets ""?
I believe you are using the Pell Seat incorrectly. The tapered end is designed for correcting deformed skirts. The round end is for seating. In your video, you showed seating with the tapered end, not the round end...
I will second that. I always use the round end.
Precisely, I may add 🙄
I agree.
That makes too much sense
You are using the pellseat wrong... The pointed part is just to get the pellet in the barrel without pushing on the skirt which could deform it. Once you get almost flush turn it around and seat it flush with the round end which expands the skirt to seal it into the grooves of the rifling. Notice that your homemade ball bearing looks an awful lot like the back end of the pellseat?
@Jeremy C I also noticed this, also it appears that this pushes the pellet down inside the barrel a little too far, which to my mind could render the overall "power" a bit less as it allows for a "cushioning" or compression effect? I have only ever pushed mine in as far as the skirt?? Ahem :)>
Good video. Personally I'll just use my thumb to seat the pellet until it makes contact with the bore. With a springer the pellet acts as the pressure release valve. When the piston has travelled halfway down the compression tube the pressure has gone from 1bar to 2bar, three quarters of the way 2bar to 4 bar, seven eighths of the way 4bar to 8 bar and so on until the pressure is great enough to start to overcome the resistance of the pellet to enter the bore, then the pellet enters the bore, deforming evenly to fit the rifling grooves and effect a seal and can then move more easily down the bore and acceleration begins. The gun is designed for this to happen almost at the end of the stroke and the massive build up of pressure is cushioning the piston. The compressed air expands to fire the pellet.
If you seat the pellet firmly enough such that it is in the rifling grooves the pellet will move sooner, the piston won't be slowed at the end of the stroke as it should be and that is why on one rifle you felt it slamming.
It is certainly faster that way.
Thank you for taking the time to show this.
I've used a huge variety of pellets and found that you can find the sweet spot, so to speak, with my thumb by feeling it out. I also have a variety of air pistols and rifles including pneumatic rifles and each of them have different "feels" to them when seating the ammunition. I think it comes sort of naturally or intuitively as one uses their gun.
+budcat7 I'd agree budcat7. Thanks for passing that info on. AtB, Nige
I seat my pellets for two reasons:
A. Seating ensures that pellets are deep enough so that no lead is sheared off when closing the breach. That keeps the gun cleaner and results in every pellet retaining all the weight it was manufactured in. That alone should contribute to accuracy by being consistent.
B. Seating guarantees that each pellet starts at exactly the same depth which also contributes to accuracy.
Power really isnt an issue for me. The gun was designed a certain way and theres little improvement one can make over that which will result in materially better performance. I also dislike pushing mechanical items of any kind beyond its design limits. Ive used an Air Venturi seater as well as an old pen. They both work equally well.
Good video Nigel - Haven't shot airguns now for at least a year, have moved on to rimfire and am progressing to full bore - but after this came up in my video feed I might have to brush off the old SMK 19 - Thanks for the clear and concise content. Cheers, Matt
+Project1312 well, I'm glad this video has inspired you to get back into air power! I have an ARC tuned XS19 and that particular rifle benefits from pellet seating, funnily enough. (It's a .22). ATB, Nige
He is doing it as instructed.
I like break barrels. It’s so easy and quick to use unlike pumps or PCP and HPA, it’s tedious, and tasky. Break barrel you just grab that rifle, break it open, insert pellet, aim, shoot. No worries about pumping, or air in tank of PCP or HPA.
Break barrel rifle is the most reliable bar none nothing to buy and no plastic mag the break... Just reliable shooting for years to come
I have a crossman tr77 nps. Every pellet I've tried, except daisy flat heads, have not fired. When I place them in the breach and fire it makes a deep ssssss sound. I tried seating the pellets and it works perfectly. I can get groups of 5 pellets in one centimetre with my crossman destroyers and daisy hollow points. The daisy flat heads shot without seating are terrible. I can't get a group smaller than the palm of my hand. I shot them at wax blocks and they just barely stayed in. I began testing with seating the flatheads and they performed amazingly. They have much deeper penetration and are much more accurate. Thank you for this video.
I have zero experience with pellet seaters but looking at the beeman tool design makes me feel like it is being used incorrectly. Just a guess, the ball at one end is for seating, and the taper tool at the other end is for truing up the flange on misshapen pellets.
Ah Ha! My thought exactly.
I made my own pellet seater for both 1.77 and 22 cal and making that slight taper at the breach my pellets go in about 1 mm deeper than flush and I find much more consistency in acuracy and power than just pushing them in.. the pellet seats into the rifling and so all the air is now used to propel the pellet instead of at the start the air must first squeeze the pellet into seat before it goes on its merry way..as long as the pellet is not pushed too deep down seating a pellet works for me every time 😉👍.. it also sorts out any deform that can be found it pellet skirts from time to time
I don't think that you've gone "Buh ~ Nah ~ Nuz" I appreciate all of the great info, plus the time spent recording and documenting.
I have subbed to your channel.
Thanks a lot, sir.
What I have found is that if you only use the ball end of the Beeman tool (I've had mine since 1980!) you will get the same results as your ball bearing tool. The whole Idea is to smooth the skirt of the pellet out so it is in contact with the Chamber all the way around. Then you are assured of getting a perfect seal when the pellet is pushed down the barrel by the Air.
A properly sized ball bearing does the job nicely.
One thing to remember is that during seating with a tool of any kind its possible to shear off some lead from the skirt. Make sure you look for that and remove it or risk having it pushed into the barrel and destroying accuracy for subsequent shots.
i use a plastic golf tee to seat my pellets works great. it does make it more accurate and I'm getting more distance so power is up a bit.
Great informative video. I'm personally a Crossman 1377 American classic (fully modified w/ 19 inch barrel and rifle stock , ++++) and Benjamin multipump .22 advocate. I upgraded the bolts in both rifles to seat my pellets better than stock.
I have found that the skirts of stock Beeman domed hunting pellets seat better than the skirts on stock Crossman domed hunting pellets. But the crossman's are a harder lead that penetrate deeper.
P.s. real rifle projectiles in .177 and .22 fit, and work. FMJ, FMJHP. They just don't give good expansion,but they hit hard.
flush with the breach, anything else is to sell fancy gadgets to put pellets into your gun. I did a similar test with multiple rifles and pellets, tested a black hawk elite, hatsan 95, hatsan 135, benjamin prowler, benjamin titan. Pretty much the same result as yours. Biggest difference I noticed in accuracy and consistency was related to weight of pellet, pellet shape, how it fit in the breech (some are tighter than others) and of course the biggest variable for springers was hold/shooting technique.
+American Son Helpful. Thanks for commenting
I like your scientific approach to your investigations. Keep up the good work
I'm mainly into full bore rifles, and rimfire, but I enjoyed this video, and similar ones, and it's given me the incentive to dust off my Weirauch HW35 in. .177 .i only use open sights, and so far, have found Wasp the most accurate.
I'm having as much fun tinkering with my HW35, as I do when I work up reloads for my 270 or 300 WM.
I may even post a video myself.
Try H&N Match pellets Or JSB Exacts in your HW35 both will produce the best accuracy in those guns.
I'm glad the gamo magnum has taken seating right out of the equation with the 10x clip. Sometimes not seating in the clip can cause misfire but is rare. Overall good and consistent
I have a Remington Tyrant which is very like the Webley you have here, and I have tried quite a few pellets, but in the end stick with H&N Excite spike, because they seat beautifully in the breech just with a thumb and give superb grouping results. I have looked at pellets I fired into water and they seem to have been immaculately engaged with the rifling also. I think that skirt is the key, all power used on firing as skirt is a good seal and smooth engagement down the barrel leading to consistency.
Crosman owners manual states insert pellet flush to chamber
Been seating my pellets since I was a teenager in my springer. I never thought as to why exactly, but I did.. Fast forward 20 years and I actually visually noticed the increase in velocity by observing the pellets stuck in the blocks of my wall behind the target. All the seated pellets were noticeably flatter than the pellets simply seated with a finger. I figured it was due to forming the rifling into the pellet skirt causing a significant enough decrease in bore friction without compromising the actual seat seal.. Just my thoughts.. Maybe I am wrong.
If you shot the pigeons , rats or squirrels it isn't worth your time. Even .177 is strong enough to kill .
@@snd7622 True enough my friend..
The only thing I could say would be that if a "pellet seater" what ever kind would or could remove some variation from using one's thumb, ie it would seat the pellet at a known distance every time but this is just a guess. I think the only way to test this is for several people to repeat it with same devices but also have the gun locked down to remove variation from shooter bias.
Very well done video. I've seen shows on tv that were less put together than this. Keep up the great work.
+joseph crivello Thanks Joseph. I put a lot of effort into my vids (being a professional journalist). Sadly, others are just happy to turn out rubbish and enjoy the fame they get from their virtual friends...
First vid of yours that I have seen, very well done. I can't stand vids where a pre-teen just shows what he is doing with gloves on and no explanation of what or why.
I've done a little experimenting myself and what I've found is certain pellets have a sweet spot for how far they are pushed in. Too far an accuracy goes down, not far enough and accuracy goes down. You get more flyers when the pellet is pushed to far that's for sure. (5mm and more is a no-no for me.) As it turns out about 1mm down is what I'm finding to be the best. And best here means fewest flyers and tightest groups.
I don't have a chronograph, so I could not test that.
HTH
+Stickman Useful info, thanks
Stickman 0
Great video. My experience with pellet seating is however carful I'm when seating a pellet with deferent types of pellet seaters (homemade), the pellet skirt will get damaged! And that will effect the accuracy...
Brilliant and very informative sir, thanks for your time in making these videos for us (newbie air gunners)
👍🏼
No problem, Mehmet. Glad to be of help... and very appreciative of your taking the time and trouble to respond. ATB, Nige
I've found that, pretty universally, having a way to seat a pellet into the breach no more than 3mm seems to be very consistent. Also eliminates the gas-seal problem.
+Shayde Mohr Thanks for sharing your experiences on pellet seating...
AirgunTV
No problem, though. Literally though, 3mm is as far as you want to go. Generally I stick with a plunger I made myself that will seat the end of the skirt 80 thousandths of an inch past the chamfer.
AirgunTV m
Hi. I have a Cometa Fenix 400 in .177. It came with a free tin of HN Baracudas at 11 grains, this is a very popular pellet with hunters where I'm from. Because of the large diameter of the pellet (head .177) I had real trouble getting them to seat flush in the breech without using my thumbnail, which indented the skirt. This affected accuracy as i would be guaranteed of flyers in every shot string. I tried JSB Exacts at 8.44 grains with a head diameter of .173, the pellets were much easier to seat flush in the barrel, and my accuracy improved tremendously. My two cents is that pellet head diameter affects the proper seating of pellets in the breech, which affects accuracy.
+walliack Thank you for that detailed information, walliack. It is true that a large-headed pellet will be difficult to thumb home into the rifling, and it could well lower the guns power due to increased friction - especially if the barrel is choked...
I've got an old Diana d2 and it's bore is just a bit of 177 it's like 4.7 mm and I've been using a pellet seater with smk thunderbolt pellets and it likes the recipe shall we say 😀
I have noticed a. Clean. Barrel. Performs really good. Leas fouling us a problem with. Pellets because if. Tight clearances
Great video 👍 and yes it gives it more power when one pushes the pellet in a little deeper.. Is like dieseling without oil making it dry dieseling ...👍
As mentioned in many comments, the ball shape helps create a better seal by pushing at the skirt.
TL;DR in advance of wall of text: Don't push the pellets down the barrel. Use rounded part if using a Pell Seat, for the most part just aim to have the pellet seated so it is flush.
If your piston is slamming, you are doing something wrong and will more than likely damage your gun if done repeatedly.
----
I want to toss out a theory where you mention a lack of air seal when pushing it far in.
I do believe your gun is sealing as it should at the break, and I'm mentioning this as the wording could be confusing to some.
By pushing the pellet so far in, not only is the travel distance to the end of the barrel slightly reduced, the skirt will also likely squish together a little, allowing easier travel through the barrel.
Easier travel means the pellet is set in motion sooner than intended, there is less pressure in the chamber, the piston has not travelled as far as during normal use, and this is not a good thing.
The piston is probably slamming in the chamber because the pellet is able to leave the barrel too soon, and once the pellet leaves the barrel, the barrel and chamber is no longer pressurized and there's nothing to hold back the piston from slamming. Ontop of that, whatever travel distance the piston has remaining once the pellet leaves the barrel, is lost, and that can be seen in the numbers listed, which appears to be around 10% which is fairly significant.
It definitely seems favorable to just get the skirt nicely shaped to the barrel for a good seal, but using decent quality pellets and just seating it with your thumb is probably enough for any non competitive application. That way you're fairly sure it is firing as the manufacturer intended.
Never had much luck with pellet seating. I notice H&N .177 8.64gr. seat better than my JSB 8.44gr. in my HW97k. It appears that a tighter fitting pellet to bore size is the issue. Good video and approach to your experiments. I love that HW35E you had made with engraving, and barrel.
I love experiments like these. You've got a new subscriber, sir.
I learned something today.
You must be a scientist.
A chrono that fits on the muzzle ??
Good video sir. I was wondering. Which do you prefer? Spring pistons or gas pistons? Thanks in advance and I think I'm gonna make that tool you made with the ball bearing
I've tended to favour spring-powered piston rifles to gas-ram-powered pistons in the past, largely because I always felt there was a 'knack' at shooting gas-rams. However, there's clearly been a lot of development on the gas-ram system since the original inventors, the now-defunct Theoben, let the patent lapse. As a result, I find most of the modern-day breed of gas-rammers to have the same characteristics of a well-running springer. In fact, I'd chose a gas-ram model over a 'cheap 'n' cheerful' springer any day of the week nowadays!
I flare the end of the pellet and it seams to make more power. Pressure builds up more before the pellet gets forced into the barrel
+aslanyavuz can work... but you run the risk of overdoing it and causing too much kick to get the pellet started. This can even LOWER the velocity...
@@AirgunTVJust as improperly using the wrong end of the Beeman tool to deep seat the pellet in the breech of a spring piston air rifle will decrease velocity.
using a seater for the Crosman 13 series always improves it a little
I use a Sharpie marker which is perfect
This video sounds like an episode of "TOP GEAR" (British Edition) but for air rifles!!! Love the commentating or narrating or whatever you want to call it!!!
Hahaha you're so right, it really does
Thumb! I always have it with me and it's easy to use. My thumb is callused due to seating hundreds of pellets every week. I'm not a big hunter but I target shoot hours at a time. To seat a pellet properly with the thumb, push firmly on the pellet while rocking your thumb slightly side to side. With little practice, this way to seat a pellet becomes consistent and second nature.
+Lead Poyzinun Well said... and your method gets a thumbs-up from me! :)
Great vlog, thanks for posting and sharing with us.
I've also fitted my pistol with an automotive Ac o-ring breech seal o-ring.. much better then the stock synth plastic!!
+Kevin Wright Great tip, Kevin
A radio jack plug makes a good pellet seater i sent away for a factory made one and used and it pushed the pellet to far down the barrel and the guns accuracy became worse like you demonstrated
when shooting my .177 Diana 34.
Neat idea, Paul. Thanks for sharing... ATB - Nige
done the same myself. for a bit till i got the lathe.
Nigel, I would also like to see the standard deviations and %RSD (100*standard deviation/average) from the power measurements. Rather than just looking at total power, the spread of the power measurements would be a more accurate evaluation. For instance, if the power did not improve but the %RSD did. This would show a more consistent power output even if it was lower.
Thanks for making another good video. I always try to push the pellet flush with my thumb, I found that, for .177, a 3.5mm headphone jack is reasonably good (but thumbs are easier) You definitely don't want the pellet pushed too far into the barrel, it enlarges the transfer port massively, increases the 'lost volume' and buggers up the compression ratio.
+Sherlock 1963 Thanks Sherlock. That's a good tip - the HP jack, not the thumb! - thanks. And, yes, you're right about the lost volume. That was clearly the problem with the PellSeat
If you use a golf tee and push it gently into the breech it leaves an ideal mark (leave a little extra to tune to your brand of pellet) then cut off the excess and seat your pellet just right.
Please can you tell me how you can measure the power of a air rifle .ie what is that tool you have there to measure power of air rifle .thanks
Wow that beeman thing sucks, great video, thanks!
got that piston hammer seating alloy pellets not good i really dig on the home made tool
Hi, just catching up with the vids. Can the bought pellet seating tool be used the other way round? It looks like the ball end is closer to the one you made
Yes, it could be, but it didn't suit all calibres, and I've found over the years that it's not that good.
See my reply to plummz, Glenn.
I always do it, I use the end of a pen. And push it just until it clics.
+Michael Creeger Can work... but push-in depth is crucial
Pellet seaters are always used for accuracy, not power. I dont see any way for it to increase power. The other reason to use one is to ensure that the pellet is actually fully inserted into the breech. If any pellet skirt, even a small amount shows that lead will either be sheared off or squashed. You dont want lead building up around there. You want to leave it all on the pellet.
Ive never been able to push a pellet fully in with my finger, so a pellet seater is a must afaic. I just use an old ball point pen tip. It works just fine. If the pen still works, nothing will happen to it. It can still be a pen.
YMMV, FWIW, WFYB, JMHO, etc.
Nice Vid! I'm planning to buy webley vmx. Which scope did you mount on vmx, will a bugbuster do? TIA
+Dabuldaguba That'll be fine. Use the best mounts you can afford...
The flat head ones I use for my 22 there quite powerful would recommend
I think the take away here is to always ensure your pellets are seated exactly the same for the most consistent power and accuracy, the emphasis being consistency. As for the beeman pelseat what were they thinking?!
+Clint Westwood Exactly! ;)
i seat my pellets with a .22rifire cartridge with a ball bearing glued in the end. in my experience it doesnt so much improve accuracy but it does improve consistency as all pellets are seated identically :)
Thanks for that info - and useful tip - Lewis. Much appreciated. ATB, Nige
AirgunTV no problem nigel. i love that your doing videos again, you videos are very interesting putting theories to the test. keep up the great work!
+lewis furness Appreciated:)
Another very interesting video. See a few discussion on a few forums on this subject. Like your video has show it can be a bit mixed with the results, but unlike your video those trying it was using there preferred pellet and there was no mention of variations in power due to how the pellet was seated or how far into the breach the pellet was pushed.
One one of the VHTV videos from a few years back Si Pittaway picked up a new Weihrauch (sadly I can't remember the model) from Sandwell Field Sports and Tony said to seat the pellet to get better accuracy was to push the pellet enough to leave an impression of the breach on your thumb.
Glad you enjoyed it d1gger. I deliberately chose pellets at random - I did want to use a lot more, but when I realised just how much shooting was involved (for arguably not more conclusive a result), I narrowed it down to the four brands which I had in both .177 and .22. I would add that the pellets I've found work best in my FWB are those that get seated by thumb - leaving an impression, like you said Tony at SFS has recommended. Then again, that could be because it's got the 'ideal' breech face chamfer. Results are mixed and, as I said in the video, you can't really say, universally, that there's a 'categorical' answer to the question of whether pellet seating is worth it or not. But you've got to try it, in my book, just to see... !!! Thanks for posting that information. ATB, Nige
1:49, call me nuts but why not use the opposite end of the Beeman pelseat tool with the spherical shaped part.
There is no secret to this, the pellets have to be seated flush in the breach. There cannot be any gap between the pellet and the barrel. Always make sure your pellets skirt is not deformed. Accuracy comes with learning how to shoot your particular air rifle. I have a low powered Springer which i shoot and can stack those pellets at 10meters, you just have to do your part. 😎
Cheers buddy
You cannot argue with science.
The resistance that a thumb seated pellet adds to the velocity ..It adds resistance to the power stroke. Making higher#s at the final resort.
I've proven it with the nitro piston. It shoots a wimpy shot with seated rounds. Good vid boss. Cheers from California....
I lube the pellet before seating, and they seem to fly faster. At 30 yards, there is a noticeable reduction it impact time. Not scientific, but seems to work for me. Also penetration is a lot better.
+CaptAmerica12 Interesting...
If the lubricant used is petrol based it is called dieseling and will effect speed and power very much! Use oil, not solvents or you will dissolve/damage the Oring. You may want to install a better o'ring for long term maintenance of rifle.
@Gregory Lankford
How do I get a better O-Ring for my air rifles? I have a Daisy 880s & Bear River TPR 1200.
it would also put him over the 12 ftlb uk limit.. and if it diesels some places consider that a firearm..
@ Gregory Lankford Actually dieselling does not make the projectile move any faster. It just gives a louder bang. Taofledermaus did a video on this and noticed the speed was consistent but the firing slightly more louder than normal.
I've found, In my own studies with my customized Benjamin trail NP pistol in .177 I've found that the lesser aerodynamic pellet (crosman pointed hollow points) to perform the best!!! at 30yrds.. well over all the exotic/ expensive ammo on the market. with the exception of the orange penetrators in 5.5grain weight.. and I use a homemade ball bearing seater... thanks to your info.. happy shooting😎
+Kevin Wright Interesting info there Kevin. Thanks for that... ATB, Nige
Can you recommend where I can send my Daisy Powerline 92 for repair? (Leaking CO2)
Airgun World gave these away. That's the best airgun magazine!
+Sudo Nym You are correct... except they were a variation. BTW, I designed them... when I was AGW's publisher! They also got given away on the sister magazine, Air Gunner. Nige
Why did you use the pointy end of the pellseat, when your homemade pellet seater clearly has a bearing (round) end? Why didn't you seat the pellets with the round end of the pellseat?
I use the ball end of the Beman pellet seating tool and not the pointed end, because of exactly what you described in your video. Also, instead of a ball-bearing on the end of the bolt, why not just use a semicircular crown nut?
+L.I. Archer Thanks for your comment. I haven't found the ball end of the PellSeat that effective (nor its other end!), but used it as a template for making my own; hence utilising a ball bearing (different sizes for different calibres). Hadn't thought of a crown nut; the BB just seemed a logical thing because I could easily get the right size (mentioned in earlier replies).
This actually Works for the power first i shot a thick old leather wallet it did not even go half way through then i pushed it in with a pen and it went all the way through.
Great video! As this was methodically done, it gives useful info. Well presented too, thanks!
I reckoned that some cheaper shot were not all the same fit, the snugger fitting ones were a lot more accurate than the ever so slightly easier fitting ones, I reckon the snug fit ones rifle better leading to better accuracy
+John T Perhaps...
Very interesting topic. Thanks for sharing, i never made the experiment. Thanks for the data
I would love to see standard deviations for the fps data. Did either method result in repeatable performance?
Well done again Nigel - clear, concise and informative 👏✔️
Thanks Mr Shoto. Not so sure as to the 'conclusion' on pellet seating being quite so clear, though!!!! :D
PS: Initially, I was going to try it with a load more brands of pellets... but it was SUCH A LOT OF SHOOTING (!!!) that I ended up settling on just four brands in the two calibres... Good job I enjoy all this kinda testing malarkey, isn't it?!!!
Your video piqued my interest as it reminds me when I seat center fire bullets. It appears that you get the accuracy with your ball bearing pellet seater. You beveled, slightly, the mouth of the breach. So when the pellet is seated, is the pellet seated just slightly below the flush level of the beach? Thanks for the upload.
+Tyrone Kim It's pretty much flush; the bevel (chamfer) helps the pellet skirt 'break' at the optimum pressure point (IMO)
AirgunTV Thanks. Best wishes.
Could the improvements with the Ball-Bearing based Tool, be due to the Ball deforming the Pellet Skirt outwards, forming a better Seal to the Barrel?
+John Warner More than likely
For all of you saying full bore is that what you call big bore across the pond ?
you can't beat a mark1 thumb, at least you've always got it with you
That is SO true superowl... although once you work out if pellet seating DOES make a difference to either your power or accuracy, you end up not having as much confidence in it as you used to!!! But I give your comment a, erm... thumbs-up!!! ;)
Yes you have always got your thumb with you right up to the point that you let go of the barrel when loading and the bear trap mechanism fails...
A good tip if you care about accuracy, but if I need power I'll just diesel it.
@Henry Schnelle It does, so best make sure it's worth it. Next step, a firearm.
I have been seating my pellets for years..most of the cheaper air rifles you will hear and feel a thud as the piston bottoms out ,,however I made a pellet pusher out of a tapered centre punch with a brass washer pushed tightly on the taper of the punch ,thru trail and error I can finally can say it makes a big difference only because it does not push the pellet too far in only enough to reduce the friction at the start of the piston moving forward ,but maintains enough air pressure to widen the skirt of the pellet thus grabbing the rifling,,the only pellet I find where this is not worth doing is with the quality of RWS pellets
Were you essentially dry firing your gun on the occasions that the pellet was seated too far?
+Mack Durr I probably wouldn't go so far as to say 'dry firing' it, but over-seating would certainly cause a more violent bottoming of the piston due to a lack of pressure build-up.
Very through and informative. Excellent Data collection---Thanks !!
I would have collected more data w/ more shots. Dude should have done 3 sets of 3s.
People assume "power" and speed equals better. It's not. It's all about finding the sweet spot for the gun and pellets. Each set up is different but there's always a spectral sweet spot on air rifles. 800-900 fps is usually good for .177 -.22 because the pellets, (being air driven) begin to swirl around the 70yrd mark. due to the wave tunnel behind the skirts.
Lol, mine 177s are still super tight at 60-70 yrds tho.
i think the pellet only must seated deep enough ,so the skirt gets inside the barrel ,and will not destroyed bij closing the barrel or by the pressure and jou can test a pellet before shooting ,try the pellet head fit in the muzzle of the barrel ,if its a loose fit dont bother shooting them.
Don't know if you'll a swer this but I bought some .177 copper pellets but they won't fit in my pellet gun wutch if .177.
They are 10 gr. Could that be the problem?
Im shooting with a gamo gas piston air rifle with the pellet seated it shoots tighter grups then just pushing it in with your thumb i made my own seater wich seats them good
When i was a kid i used a rod to push my slugs through the bore before firing them.
I tried the same in my cheap sub 500 fps chinese B1 pellet gun...speed went from about 350 to 480 fps
the beeman pellseat also has an ball on the end... next time use it... it also helps seal the pellet in the breech
+James Denny Thanks for the advice, James. I have used it in the past, but find that it 'splays' the skirt too much. Also, it's really only suited to the one calibre; i have a DIY tool for each calibre (which I perhaps should have pointed out in the video) - a 5/16" BB for .22 and a 9/32" BB for .177 pellets.
i use the ball end of a swizzle stick....CHEERS!!!
I like the upgrade.
Learned something new
this video is really very helpful. thanks!
Interesting, I'd love to have a shoot with yourself chap, I reckon I could learn a few things from you 👍
Dr Russ has a good channel you might like
Mate where did u get that chrono??
What if you put a bit of black powder on a pellet, would it fly faster???
WD40 ;)
Nigel, thank you from the colonies :) for answering a question I had been wondering about.
No problem. :)
i shoot lead free pba platinum out my air rifle and they go 1400 feet per second so if i do this method of loading them that bring it up what 100 more feet per second?.
The reason the ball bearing works better is, it is spreading the skirt and creating a better seal.
So what you're saying is, skip the seater and just grind a small bevel into the breach end of the barrel.
PS: this is also a great tip for PCP rifles because it doesn't damage your o-rings.
Just today I tried it out. I had a lot of fliers. I used my thumb a 22rimfire bullet and the side of a knife.what size bearing did you use for the 22 pellets ""?
+Joe crumlish YT For the .22, I used a 5/16th BB (7.92mm). For the .177, I used a 9/32" - (7.1mm). HTH