From a medic pov and why it's so annoying to me: The only real defensive resource that you have is attention. Competent players usually will not eat spam that they are paying attention to. Spam is only really dangerous when other threats are taking all of your attention. Inversely, paying your attention to the spam makes other threats more dangerous. This means that any time the demo is on the same point as me (e.g. any team fight) I have to pay a not-insignificant amount of my attention to him, even when he's in the opposite choke. This means I am playing the rest of the game worse during that time, as I have less attention to spend on the rest of the game (regardless if he actually hits a pipe or not). If I have to focus on a loch demo, I'm much less likely to see flanking bombers/players on the edge of my screen or headglitching snipers, I'm not going to be able to solemn vow check their players as effectively, I'm less likely to see when their medic spawns. If the enemy demo is running loch, you're almost certainly going to be using your eyes to dodge pipes from across the map during common spy timings. All of this is normally only the case when he is actively engaged in the fight and at risk of taking damage or dying himself. Inversely, if I spend my attention on a soldier bombing me, I have just about no attention left to look at loch pipes. Single sacs becomes actually dangerous, as you will guaranteed receive 50+ damage from the soldier. Whether or not the demo pipes you while you're a kilometre away with a soldier in your face does feel (at least to me) to be in god's hands, and I'm sure the demo would feel equally little responsibility for the outcome. This is the biggest situation where normal pipes will never reach. You normally might expect to receive sticky spam in that situation, but they have to be charged and do a fraction of the damage. A demo would have to be extremely over-extended to pipe a med during most sac situations. I really cannot stress how much more dangerous this is to me than rollers or an extra pipe in the magazine. It's the difference of having to dodge pipes or... not having to dodge pipes. Again, I think all of this risk incurred by the demo is completely fair if (and only if) the demo has to incur risk to himself in order to do it. This is the case with stock. This is not the case with loch. I do not primarily view this as a balance issue but rather a design issue. I think this violates a fundamental aspect of 6s gameplay: damage scales with how close you are to the enemy. Normal pipes do a lot of damage *because* you have to be so close (and even still probably have the highest potential for damage at range in standard 6s). The reason why even extremely good players (better than myself) are taken off-guard by this weapon is because it does not fit within the established principles of the format. Footnote: the clip of me eating the loch pipe and arrow was just a skill issue. my reaction speed is so fucking ass, bro.
Honestly, this seems to just kinda weird to me, pipes all do relatively the same damage regardless of the range? Plans when met with the enemy team fall apart, as we are all players & not bots, so why not just coordinate with your team better & create effective lines of communication rather than hyper focus on a single member of the enemy team.
6:42 "you never really want to die as a demo if you can help it" i've been dying all the time as demo, i didn't realize i was doing it wrong the whole time. now i will never die as demo
i disagree about loss of rollers being the bigger downside. with only 3 shots in a clip, it's not meant to be spam weapon. and even in terms of spam, 1 less shot makes a huge difference (even if you had rollers since they'd fly past anyways). I use the loch n load primarily because that 20% makes it so much easier when you REALLY need to hit that pipe on a soldier/scout or hit things outside of your normal range but outside of those moments, the lower clip size really holds it back. one thing that i do miss when i use the loch n load is the ability to shoot behind cover by arcing the nade over or bouncing it of a wall/ceiling. i guess rollers would help a lot with that but i'll gladly take that trade for a huntsman with a clip size of 3 that can't headshot lol
i feel like on 5cp it definately is either 50/50 or better than stock/iron bomber, however I think rollers on KOTH is very useful due to the smaller size
I feel like this whole issue is caused by some sixes players not liking lock n load because it’s diffrent Some thinking it’s op and a lot of other people thinking this entire issue is so fucking stupid and I personally think we should allow weapons like these to be used for atleast 1 season to see how it changes the meta or something rather then banning it right away
there's sort a bias the experience of using it and especially playing against it gives you, the situations where a loch pipe hits that stock wouldn't hit really stick out, but nobody consciously thinks about what rollers or an extra shot might have done in a fight as the impact isn't immediately apparent
I find it frustrating to play against because it changes the distances at which i dodge pipes by moving out of the way and doging pipes by guessing when theyre going to shoot. The model/firing sound also isnt distinct enough from stock/iron bomber so its really easy to get caught off guard by it because you dont even know they're using it
you mentioned passive playstyles allowing demo to hit pipes longer range safer, but what about aggressive playstyles. say if Habib was just bombing and soloing the other team because the lnl pipes are just so easy to hit
I love this launcher, it's like a mini direct hit, but weaker. The range is pretty good, on 2fort, you can spam the enemy sipers on their battlements from behind the wall of yours lol
I don’t get banning the loch-n-load when the direct hit isn’t banned. Or at least to my knowledge it isn’t banned. They are very similar weapons and if one should be banned than the other should be too
soldier and demo just fill different niches. if soldier had a super reliable extra means of damage like the stickybomb launcher then direct hit might be way better
@@Wild_RumpusWhile yes demo and soldier fill different niches that misses the point that both the direct hit and the loch-n-load filling a similar niche of being a weapon that rewards quick precise shots. The logic there just isn’t consistent with itself. Even if we include stickies in on the discussion then I have to ask why aren’t all grenade launchers banned? Stock and the iron bomber both also deal 100 base damage and can two tap most classes. The only real differences being the loch-n-load having no rollers, one less shot and a faster projectile. Again I’m not seeing the logic here
@@theinnocentxeno it's true they're similar weapons but balance isn't about the weapons in a vacuum and the context surrounding them is important. loch enables a different way to play demo that some think skews risk/reward in an unfun way, direct hit doesn't
nah nah nah i remember everyone call loch n load terrible weapon and i should only use the default because i just nerf myself and now results to be broken do me the favour
This is just another scenario, where comp TF2 players would rather just bitch and moan than actually change the way they play. Consideration for counterplay is never the option, banning and maintaining the same meta is always the correct option. 🙄🙄 Now people have to stand in different places when they realize a loch n load is at play. They have the power to switch weapons too but I don't see that happening
Yeah I think you're right. Like it's been soldier scout demo medic for so long and you don't even get to go freaking pyro! How do you think they should counter the loch n load?
@@capnfapn What do you mean you don't get to pick pyro? You can pick them, there's one team that run pyro full time, it's just that they're not very good in the 6s environment; I think rumpus made a vid on it
@@mintme1876 well u technically can go pyro but the 6s elitists hate it and will ban you from their servers if u do. I would be in platinum if they'd let you go pyro
I used to be a massive fan of the loch before it got banned in ozfort mostly cause it can provide a very unique way of playing demo with extra range it allows and by that I mean I found spots to cross map noobtube people on koth
Competitive players should be dictating what is fair, but they overstep and try to dictate what is fun. This is why TF2 hasn't taken of as an esport despite being such a popular game. The fact that after years of no balance changes the Loch-n-Load is only recently getting some consistent use is evidence of it being remarkably well-balanced, this shouldn't be a debate. But, the competitive community is constantly chasing the high of recreating their most nostalgic match down to every detail.
@@Wild_Rumpus 1) Balance doesn't mean everything is meta, that is literally impossible. There's no competitive game that offers meaningful choices without having a meta. Balance means multiple options are viable. The Grenade Launcher is not unviable due to the existence of the Loch n Load and it's recent preference in the meta. 2) The primary goal of an esport or sport is entertainment through competition. Watching Froyo on RGL go 7-0 on a multi-year streak using the exact same strategy as last season is closer to an abusive relationship than a sports event. No one wants to watch that. The top 4 videos on RGL's channel are meme videos. There's nothing wrong if you just want to have fun and play the exact same match every day for the rest of your life. I get that, I'm the kind of player who would play Smash Fox only Battlefield only with my friends. But if there's any ability to reason within you, you will realize that TF2 6s is not prioritizing the right things if their goal is to be a successful esport.
you're downplaying how uninteractive, disruptive, and annoying it is to be dealing with immediate threats or simply be out of view as a demoman spams pipes over a structure you can't see through from ten thousand miles away and then getting slammed for 100 damage often consecutive times for completely free. it's utterly braindead and your defense is ignorant at best and dangerously disingenuous at worst
![Why [TF2] has (Almost) Perfect Melee Weapons](/img/n.gif)
From a medic pov and why it's so annoying to me:
The only real defensive resource that you have is attention. Competent players usually will not eat spam that they are paying attention to. Spam is only really dangerous when other threats are taking all of your attention. Inversely, paying your attention to the spam makes other threats more dangerous.
This means that any time the demo is on the same point as me (e.g. any team fight) I have to pay a not-insignificant amount of my attention to him, even when he's in the opposite choke. This means I am playing the rest of the game worse during that time, as I have less attention to spend on the rest of the game (regardless if he actually hits a pipe or not). If I have to focus on a loch demo, I'm much less likely to see flanking bombers/players on the edge of my screen or headglitching snipers, I'm not going to be able to solemn vow check their players as effectively, I'm less likely to see when their medic spawns. If the enemy demo is running loch, you're almost certainly going to be using your eyes to dodge pipes from across the map during common spy timings. All of this is normally only the case when he is actively engaged in the fight and at risk of taking damage or dying himself.
Inversely, if I spend my attention on a soldier bombing me, I have just about no attention left to look at loch pipes. Single sacs becomes actually dangerous, as you will guaranteed receive 50+ damage from the soldier. Whether or not the demo pipes you while you're a kilometre away with a soldier in your face does feel (at least to me) to be in god's hands, and I'm sure the demo would feel equally little responsibility for the outcome. This is the biggest situation where normal pipes will never reach. You normally might expect to receive sticky spam in that situation, but they have to be charged and do a fraction of the damage. A demo would have to be extremely over-extended to pipe a med during most sac situations. I really cannot stress how much more dangerous this is to me than rollers or an extra pipe in the magazine. It's the difference of having to dodge pipes or... not having to dodge pipes.
Again, I think all of this risk incurred by the demo is completely fair if (and only if) the demo has to incur risk to himself in order to do it. This is the case with stock. This is not the case with loch.
I do not primarily view this as a balance issue but rather a design issue. I think this violates a fundamental aspect of 6s gameplay: damage scales with how close you are to the enemy. Normal pipes do a lot of damage *because* you have to be so close (and even still probably have the highest potential for damage at range in standard 6s). The reason why even extremely good players (better than myself) are taken off-guard by this weapon is because it does not fit within the established principles of the format.
Footnote: the clip of me eating the loch pipe and arrow was just a skill issue. my reaction speed is so fucking ass, bro.
I completely agree with your range-based fundamental damage rule. If sniper gets banned, we can ban this weapon too :)
you would probably do a lot better if you communicated with your team rather than talk about the loch and load when you play
Honestly, this seems to just kinda weird to me, pipes all do relatively the same damage regardless of the range? Plans when met with the enemy team fall apart, as we are all players & not bots, so why not just coordinate with your team better & create effective lines of communication rather than hyper focus on a single member of the enemy team.
Its pre-recorded gameplay
@@prestige100bill nothing gets past you huh
@@vgg175 im such a skibidi sigma vgg. dont mess with me or ill edge you
loch got banned in aus like 2 seasons ago
Typical Ausies
This is so concerning for 6 to 8 players who play comp
As one of them, we are very concerned
tldr: comp medics cried that they cant stand still in a "safe spot" because theyre bad and refuse to adapt
True!
6:42 "you never really want to die as a demo if you can help it" i've been dying all the time as demo, i didn't realize i was doing it wrong the whole time. now i will never die as demo
TF2 competitives when some weapon breaks their THE META™
i disagree about loss of rollers being the bigger downside. with only 3 shots in a clip, it's not meant to be spam weapon. and even in terms of spam, 1 less shot makes a huge difference (even if you had rollers since they'd fly past anyways). I use the loch n load primarily because that 20% makes it so much easier when you REALLY need to hit that pipe on a soldier/scout or hit things outside of your normal range but outside of those moments, the lower clip size really holds it back. one thing that i do miss when i use the loch n load is the ability to shoot behind cover by arcing the nade over or bouncing it of a wall/ceiling. i guess rollers would help a lot with that but i'll gladly take that trade for a huntsman with a clip size of 3 that can't headshot lol
i feel like on 5cp it definately is either 50/50 or better than stock/iron bomber, however I think rollers on KOTH is very useful due to the smaller size
I feel like this whole issue is caused by some sixes players not liking lock n load because it’s diffrent
Some thinking it’s op
and a lot of other people thinking this entire issue is so fucking stupid
and I personally think we should allow weapons like these to be used for atleast 1 season to see how it changes the meta or something rather then banning it right away
the lack of rollers is a huge deal imo, definitely balances the weapon so I dont think it's op in any way
there's sort a bias the experience of using it and especially playing against it gives you, the situations where a loch pipe hits that stock wouldn't hit really stick out, but nobody consciously thinks about what rollers or an extra shot might have done in a fight as the impact isn't immediately apparent
@@kademorrill7334humans don't notice what doesn't happen
I find it frustrating to play against because it changes the distances at which i dodge pipes by moving out of the way and doging pipes by guessing when theyre going to shoot. The model/firing sound also isnt distinct enough from stock/iron bomber so its really easy to get caught off guard by it because you dont even know they're using it
iirc loch is banned in etf2l so thats unfortunate for eu players
you mentioned passive playstyles allowing demo to hit pipes longer range safer, but what about aggressive playstyles. say if Habib was just bombing and soloing the other team because the lnl pipes are just so easy to hit
Dont forget the lnl has one less pipe in a clip than stock. An aggressive demo will put out more damage with stock than lnl.
I think they should re-add the cowmangler to comp again
I see it kinda as direct hit tbh
I love this launcher, it's like a mini direct hit, but weaker.
The range is pretty good, on 2fort, you can spam the enemy sipers on their battlements from behind the wall of yours lol
Disruptive isn't a bad thing. Sometimes you need something to shake things up.
Very surprised how good the Loch is compared to all other launchers
thought you were gonna talk about the beggar's
"Early". How early? Pre-nerf?
much later, almost two years ago now
early as in before it was considered to be viable.
At this rate, just go stock only
I don’t get banning the loch-n-load when the direct hit isn’t banned. Or at least to my knowledge it isn’t banned. They are very similar weapons and if one should be banned than the other should be too
soldier and demo just fill different niches. if soldier had a super reliable extra means of damage like the stickybomb launcher then direct hit might be way better
@@Wild_RumpusWhile yes demo and soldier fill different niches that misses the point that both the direct hit and the loch-n-load filling a similar niche of being a weapon that rewards quick precise shots. The logic there just isn’t consistent with itself. Even if we include stickies in on the discussion then I have to ask why aren’t all grenade launchers banned? Stock and the iron bomber both also deal 100 base damage and can two tap most classes. The only real differences being the loch-n-load having no rollers, one less shot and a faster projectile. Again I’m not seeing the logic here
@@theinnocentxeno it's true they're similar weapons but balance isn't about the weapons in a vacuum and the context surrounding them is important. loch enables a different way to play demo that some think skews risk/reward in an unfun way, direct hit doesn't
dh doesnt do full damage at max range lol
Damage falloff and projectile arc I think are the main reasons
nah nah nah i remember everyone call loch n load terrible weapon and i should only use the default because i just nerf myself and now results to be broken do me the favour
This is just another scenario,
where comp TF2 players would rather just bitch and moan than actually change the way they play. Consideration for counterplay is never the option, banning and maintaining the same meta is always the correct option. 🙄🙄 Now people have to stand in different places when they realize a loch n load is at play.
They have the power to switch weapons too but I don't see that happening
Yeah I think you're right. Like it's been soldier scout demo medic for so long and you don't even get to go freaking pyro! How do you think they should counter the loch n load?
@@capnfapn What do you mean you don't get to pick pyro? You can pick them, there's one team that run pyro full time, it's just that they're not very good in the 6s environment; I think rumpus made a vid on it
@@mintme1876 well u technically can go pyro but the 6s elitists hate it and will ban you from their servers if u do. I would be in platinum if they'd let you go pyro
I used to be a massive fan of the loch before it got banned in ozfort mostly cause it can provide a very unique way of playing demo with extra range it allows and by that I mean I found spots to cross map noobtube people on koth
im more surprised by the fact that tf2 still has a competitive scene
I like using the loch because the pipes don't tumble, but i use stock cause of the aussie and in casual i use the loose cannon cause its fun.
as a demo main, it deserves a ban lol. I'm pretty good at hitting pipes and loc is a game changer lmaoooo
Competitive players should be dictating what is fair, but they overstep and try to dictate what is fun. This is why TF2 hasn't taken of as an esport despite being such a popular game. The fact that after years of no balance changes the Loch-n-Load is only recently getting some consistent use is evidence of it being remarkably well-balanced, this shouldn't be a debate. But, the competitive community is constantly chasing the high of recreating their most nostalgic match down to every detail.
That's not why TF2 hasn't taken off as an esport lol
I think for most fun is the primary goal and balance is usually a good tool for that
@@Wild_Rumpus 1) Balance doesn't mean everything is meta, that is literally impossible. There's no competitive game that offers meaningful choices without having a meta. Balance means multiple options are viable. The Grenade Launcher is not unviable due to the existence of the Loch n Load and it's recent preference in the meta.
2) The primary goal of an esport or sport is entertainment through competition. Watching Froyo on RGL go 7-0 on a multi-year streak using the exact same strategy as last season is closer to an abusive relationship than a sports event. No one wants to watch that. The top 4 videos on RGL's channel are meme videos.
There's nothing wrong if you just want to have fun and play the exact same match every day for the rest of your life. I get that, I'm the kind of player who would play Smash Fox only Battlefield only with my friends. But if there's any ability to reason within you, you will realize that TF2 6s is not prioritizing the right things if their goal is to be a successful esport.
@@iminumst7827 What would you propose to make 6s a successful esport
Definitely needs to be nerf.
you're downplaying how uninteractive, disruptive, and annoying it is to be dealing with immediate threats or simply be out of view as a demoman spams pipes over a structure you can't see through from ten thousand miles away and then getting slammed for 100 damage often consecutive times for completely free. it's utterly braindead and your defense is ignorant at best and dangerously disingenuous at worst
You are what's wrong with this game, Matt.
That extra thousand miles really gets ya, huh?
Competetive TF2?
You know metas are temporary 99% of the time right? This video a joke?
Same with how frequent updates are the meta changes going to happen a lot
@@johanes8867 lol, this guy definitely thinks this is overwatch or something. Hard to have a changing meta when the game never mechanically changes.
God forbid the meta changes ever-so-slightly
Tf2 bi yearly Meta cycle