The AI Tried To Cheese Me! - Reversed StarCraft 1! - Pt 11
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- Опубліковано 3 бер 2024
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AI: Tries to cheese Grant
Grant: "You dare use my own spells against me?"
"Do not cite the deep cheese to me, witch! I was there when it was written!"
- GGG, probably.
"Feeble cursed one! Do you really think you can manage the glories that are my spells?"
GGG: I will put these foolish ambitions to rest.
Aldaris, after defending a DT rush: "Amusing."
33:00 : chad fenix just face tank like a control group of scout for 5 sec
grant : that one dragoon there was so much better than anything they possibly could have fielded
came her to make sure someone else commented on this Fenix aint just some dragoon
Moments later: "There goes Fenix."
And he still didn't realise it was that Chad-dragoon. :-0
"Aiur burns at the touch of the zerg"
*cuts to zerglings playing with matches
I liked how the Ai at the End even pulled the boys out of the mineral line to try kill Grant.
I also liked how Grant didn't even notice
That is a built in simple trigger, commonly used at end of defense missions. "Send all units on random suicide mission". This trigger will send absolutely every unit, including hero units that the base AI cannot give commands to.
@@hallymiao2825 i know thats a simple trigger but normally they send all Combat units and not workers if you have seen giants video on warcraft 3 deathless they changed on the last scourge mission where you need to defend kelthuzad that all units are send to kill him not only combat units and i think its so chank that there are some probes or peasent on the way try to kill you XD
Parallel universe ginatgrantgames:
This Ai knows about the speedrun strat! No way this is soo cool! It even
Brought the dragoons and the scouts over to defend my cheese!
The funniest part about this Reverse series is that the most comments I receive are the fact that the "Defense" missions are the hardest missions (along with the escort missions).
I think people just have difficulty dealing with death waves, or being on a time crunch.
Overall, Grant has a very peculiar view on Defense missions, that very very few players share. As you watch him play, he will complain about pretty much every defense mission ever made, unless it features attacks so frequent that the player can not do anything other than to scramble to defend. I consider myself a decent RTS player, nothing amazing, but I do enjoy breaking a challenge or two in half, but there is pretty much nothing the genre has to offer that I would enjoy less than what Grant considered a good defense mission ^^
A defense mission is difficult to make because you have to consider that an average RTS player tries to amass an army with one production facility and tries to build up static defense with a single half-saturated base. And I very well remember from my childhood, when I was terrible at RTS that the very missions that Grant complains about being missions where "the enemy forgets to attack" were absolutely deadly challenges to kid me. Most would require multiple retries, and when I did win it would be thanks to the timer running out before my last building was destroyed. So time crunch is very difficult to deal with for the player who doesn't have good macro basics.
As I grew up and learned to actually play, realized that the economy is important, that you need to have multiple production buildings and that you must spend your money, of course defending the base got a lot easier. But not any less boring, to me the most fun thing about the defense mission is to try to kill the enemy before the timer runs out - this is a great challenge. I absolutely hate it when my agency is taken away from me. So when the nightmare difficulty WoL got released with Grants' consultation and blessing, he was so happy about the Zero Hour remade to make the enemy keep un constant aggression pinning the player inside their base. But for me - this is boring. It takes away the player agency, all you can do is sit there and defend, you can't explore, you can't attack, you can't do anything fun, you just have to sit there and defend - and that's not fun to me at all. I'm not sure you would consider that the same as death waves, but from my point of view - these are difficult for less experienced players and boring to experienced players. But it's a special kind of boring, it's the kind of boring where the mission may actually be very difficult, but makes you not enjoy playing it.
TL:DR
A defense mission strikes a very difficult balance, where it has to take into consideration that the mission should be challenging and fun for both beginner and expert players. and at least in my opinion players usually react more positively to missions presenting them with extra challenges they may partake in, rather than being forced to just sit there and try to survive
Edit :
I've decided to do an edit to clarify, that because defense missions require the player to spend a certain amount of time to beat them, and that time can't be reduced, barring from destroying the enemy - if the developers remembered that is a possibility - losing and having to restart the mission from the start is more punishing than pretty much anything else in the RTS genre, aka - not very fun. If the challenge is self-imposed by the player, even if they fail the challenge, they still win the mission and can proceed. If the challenge is actually about staying alive, and you died 25 minutes in - you will have to re-do the 25 minutes that didn't cause you problems.
Well, yes. I never beat the last Zerg mission in brood wars because of the time crunch.
Death waves and nukes. The AI cant beat us in a stand up fight unless they use invisible red dots on us and our ally
@@RancorSnp The edit is spot on. Unless it's some weird gotcha and the game has a well-timed autosave the final "death wave" should be a punishment for failing to play proactively not a natural feature of a timed mission. Regardless of how objectively challenging dealing with the wave itself is it just feels awful to lose right at the end of a comparatively long and boring timer. Gets even worse when they throw masses of cheesy crap such as corsairs, defilers or banelings at you.
That said it looks as if a single arbiter casting stasis on the ramp should be able to halt this particular wave until the timer runs out, 2-3 and the ground units will never make it up the ramp.
As someone who grew up playing RTS and has played pretty much every single one out there, there are two types of missions that I just can't enjoy: defense missions where the enemy attacks nonstop; timed attack missions. While I generally can win those, I hate it when the game asks me to rush or die. Half of the fun of an RTS mission is building up your base/army before attacking, and not having your attention diverted by doing stuff all over the map at once in a pressured enviroment. Might be one of the reasons why old, old RTS' did so well. Look how many truly challenging missions they had, be they timed or hard and see how map design changed in the last decade or so. Hell, compare SC 1 missions to SC2.
Tassadar: "En taro Adun Executor! Don't give up the fight!"
Narrator: "... But 23 minutes later he gave up against the superior competence of the Conclave and Chadicator Aldaris."
English is not my first language. When I was playing SC as a kid, when Fenix says to raynor "Then you shall bold human" I thought he meant "bald" xD
As a kid I thought Raynor was bald so that makes sense
32:57 Grant: "I want to point out how one dragoon there was better than everything they possibly could have fielded. All those marines got annihilated, but one dragoon took half an hour to take down to half health."
Game: "Fenix has been killed"
Grant: "Huh, there goes Fenix. Wonder when that happened."
XD Grant please. You even clicked on Fenix and saw that he had 700 HP left.
Tassadar, a strong but still just a high templar: 4000 hp
Hyperion, a literal capital ship: 2500 hp
22:09 - "And luckily we have that observer that's doing a great job of keeping tabs on what's coming for us."
Having just missed the big group of yellow moving through that area... 32 seconds later: "WOAH!"
Revenge is a dish best served with cheese
I was soo happy to see the AI target his robos at the bridge. He put them somewhere completely exposed, and the AI went for it, even targeting the Artosis pylon. It felt like justice.
The ensuing Scarab-Storm against the Teal Three was very satisfying though.
"You dare use my own spells against me?" - GiantGrantGames probably
"Defence missions in SC1 are easy" - flashbacks to BW Deathless and how much the enemy AI struggled to field an army against the xel'naga temple ...oh wait.
Starcraft 1 defense missions are easy... until you start putting major handicaps on yourself.
8:52 AI tries to build a nexus there because that is their starting location in the editor. AI will try to build a town hall building at that exact spot if possible. This is normally not an issue, as the starting location is usually placed under their main townhall building.
Honestly a major highlight of my morning when a new vid drops :) loving the new mods coming out lately ❤
You fools, there are no "reversed" campaigns, you are just playing a VS game against the devs!
MindHawk has trolled me once again!
2:22 Grant: **Gets rushed**
Also Grant: That's cute.
28:24 The StarCraft equivalent of using a spray bottle to shoo away the cats.
33:50 Not SC, but you could play They are Billions for that.
The canon spam reminds me of a few years back, when my brother and I decided to play a few rounds in SC 2. I've never been great at RTS, but I still love them, and as he was explaining some concepts of the game, I made a joke that all I'll do is make canons. He kept on explaining about certain units, but I was kind of wanting to figure things out on the fly (goes to show why im not good at RTS XD) so I just interrupted him and asked
"Is B still build?"
"-...yeah?"
"Is C still cannons?"
"Yep"
We then proceeded to laugh, and start playing.
The AI pulled the boys at the end. True Terran gameplay for going against Grant Does Games.
Fun Fact: Protoss and Terran lack a counter to Mass scouts before Broodwar. Thanks to their speed even Storm is pretty uneffective at dealing with a mass of them. People assume that was one of the reasons why they are so expensive. In Broodwar the Valkyries and Corsairs deal very well with a big blob of scouts.. and Zerg had the scourge already but the Devourers also shred through scouts.
Most of the time their cost in any ground thing that shoots up beats Scouts. Cost for Cost the Scout is probably one of the worst units in the entire game so if you just send like 2 Goliaths per Scout or 3 Dragoons per Scout or 6 Marines per Scout the Scout will lose every time. The Scout in greater numbers is always better because at the end of the day Starcraft is a numbers game and more stuff beats less stuff but of everything that can hit air, given they are equivalent cost the Scout probably loses every matchup.
For air units though, yea of course the Scout is the air superiority fighter for a reason and probably beats every other equivalent of air unit sans the Scourge
The scout also has aerial maneuverability that a lot of other starcraft 1 units just didn't have. Same reason why mutas and on occasion wraith were so scary when massed. You could just... go over there to fight your enemy, and turtle up with your army otherwise.
@@Evan-mt7bcYou do realize that Dragoons and Goliaths are the worst thing to ever try to mass, right? In a 1v1 a ground unit does beat a scout, but in 20v20 fight the thing you can deathball into a tiny clump is the one to watch out for (even if it is a scout).
Admittedly, mutas serve the same role, have the same deathball potential, and are way cheaper, so those are known across the entire universe as the clump unit, but scout can do things, sometimes, too.
@@fare-5174 yea you're kinda spitting there when you get to like 30 scouts but honestly if you let your opponent get to 30 Scouts you kinda deserve to lose, ahhh GG, shake my hand bozo
@@Evan-mt7bcEh, it happened a couple times in super-late game, when both sides try to remax after a large engagement and then a surprise scout clump wreak havoc sooner than the other side has capped on their units.
"carriers are not good against anything" I finished the regular version of this mission, the following one, the ending one and the end of the protoss campaign of overrated ASF Brood War by using mass carriers, twelve carriers fully upgraded alone shred anything they touch in seconds. Even ground anti-air like cannons and the zerg spore colony. They're almost indestructible.
Modded AIs might do things such as target them down with scourge, storm/plague them, spam lockdown, or potentially even scan your observers and kill everything with cloaked wraiths. Against vanilla, yes. If you get to that point there's little they can do especially since most units are dumb enough to target the interceptors (which unlike SC2 actually return to the carrier and get fully repaired for free when low on health).
Someone I knew about 20 years ago claimed this, so I challenged him on it. I went random, got protoss, so I made 4 arbitors and held them back with a bunch of land units. Sure enough, he came knocking on my door with I think 20 carriers which I froze solid with 2 arbitors and then used the other arbitors and land forces to decimate him.
@@NOTNOTJONnothing to claim, everybody does it apparently. I don't care of the multiplayer, I never have for strategy games TBH.
God these videos really do make my night, so much love for these videos, thank you so much
I should really be asleep right now but insomnia is a bitch. At least I get to watch these videos when they come out.
Aiur burns to he touch to the zerg, and you come all this way to ARREST ME?
Aldaris: yes.
15:22 I can't belive Aldaris WOULD send reinforcements, not to Tassadar and Raynor, but to his own Boys.
"And how many Shuttles can a man need?"
Well, apparently as many as a man needs his Probes, Grant!
It definitely feels like the Executor Nral version would have it be "You have come all this way to... arrest me?" "Yes." *gigachad music blares*
fun fact: You can type "zoom zoom" and a cheat is enabled that lets you zoom out.
Tassadar surrenders himself to the Conclave, Fenix and Raynor fail to save him, Overmind triumphs over the Protoss.
They even sent the SCVs and Probes to support, lol.
A cheese for a cheese. If you get cheese'd, you can only cheese them back. It's the only fair way xD
Finally, someone appreciates the true heroes of the SC and SCBW era!
This actually makes for an interesting what-if story. If Tassadar gets executed by the Conclave, the Overmind stays alive and in control of the swarm. The remaining Protoss on Auir are most likely hunted down and killed or evacuate via ship instead of the warp portal to Shakuras unless Zeratul still decides to help them if he is alive. Either way, the Protoss will be reduced even more than they were in canon and many of their leaders that kept them alive like Artanis might not be around in this timeline. I don't know if the Overmind particularly cares about the Terrans once he found the Protoss so it could go either way if the Dominion would be assaulted next or just left alone for now.
That would mean that the UED invasion would be up against the original Overmind rather than a new and weak one making their efforts to subjugate the Zerg most likely a futile effort. However, the UED might actually encounter people much more willing to aid them like possibly Raynor or the remnants of the Protoss recognizing the Overmind as the bigger threat so its possible they would actually pose a credible threat to the Overmind.
I guess a lot of what would happen would depend on how much of Starcraft 2 canon this what-if uses to determine what happens and if Duran and Amon would want the UED or the Overmind to win the fight causing them to tilt the odds in favor of their preferred victor.
8:40 When you see an AI build a base in a completely random and weird spot it's because that's where the player start is. I think campaign maps just use it to decide where the camera starts but the AI sees it and they think "oop that's a base"
That was really cool at the end!
I wish it went on longer, to see how hard it would get.
Thanks for the fun reversal. ^^
I like how they start you with all of the Tech EXCEPT the cybercore.
There is no greater terror than AI learning cheese. Esp with dark templar. "Come, smell a duck!"
I do feel like that defense mission looked pretty good especially, since it gave you enough time to build up and max out before doing the infinity wave, and as the defender you would have fallen back to a position that is easy to defend and where it would be build up for a defense. Meanwhile the enemy isn't necessarily build up already to send assaults in bigger blobs from the beginning.
Jimmy is basically Kenny from South Park at this point.
"Fenix has been killed" classic
Aldaris: "I HAVE COME"
Why didn’t you line the high ground with cannons at the start in the defense mission?
Is there a reverse Brood War, too? This series is great.
I photoned myself on a high ground, leaving some templars to handle the tanks. The cannons took most of the attacking waves from the cliff, but the final wave crushed them. The timer has shown 0:00 when their BCs started to crack the stasis cell. But they weren't on time, and the mission got defended in first attempt.
Good luck in the last mission of the campaign though :)
At first I was like, bro do you think you have enough cannons? But then Raynor and Fenix brought down literally every unit in the game
_They are learning:0_ ^^
Executor Aldaris, his voice sounds familiar because it's Max Tennyson from Ben 10 (Actor name is Paul Eiding). Got it. He also did Jonathan Kent in a few Superman Movies in the 2010s. But it's Max Tennyson I think that is ringing a bell.
That cheese was wild. I did play War 2 and War 3 as well, I wonder if this guy has also done other runs through campaigns, I just kind of want to watch more for nostalgia. It's SC2's 3 game/expansions that i actually remember a lot less. SC1/BW War 3 ROC/FT is what I played just absolute tons of hundreds upon hundreds of hours, war 3 probably has 1k hours just obscene amount. SC2 because Ghost didn't happen, just came so late. WOW was right on time I just didn't stick with it to even see the first expansion burning crusade.
So you continue to train the stasis field, but i don't know if i've yet to see you actually use it on any of these missions that you have arbiters.
The death wave of dragoons and battlercuisers was probably right (maybe add some reavers to help crack the cannons). But it took a little too long, and the timer ran out. What a good defense mission.
Wow, scouts are actually good defense unit!
this gave me a great idea, WOL campaign mods could have an enemy cheese the player during the opening with an optional objective to defeat the cheese (maybe with a tutorial how to counter it like how the game tries to teach you to counter zergling rushes & proxies in the bonus modes), and if you lose to the cheese the hyperion comes down, wipes the cheese out in a cutscene & drops another CC and SCVs to soft-reset the map
Can't wait for missions like True Colors or The Kel-Morian Combine
Omega is the ultimate bitch so far. The only mission I'm still unable to beat.
Thanks to Grant for making a hint on how to beat Zerg 8. Took me a lot of tries.
I don't know why, but the objective saying to literally "arrest tassadar" made me laugh so hard lmao do we gotta have an arbiter use stasis on him? *watches the next 2 minutes* AW HE ALMOST GOT CHEESED i mean whew you caught that cheese right on time, good work grant :)
Imagine if Tassadar could see while in the statis pod as a ton of stargates are built around him. The Golden Armada made before his eyes.
Loving this series.
What is the number next to the clock? APM?
yeah, APM
With that much minerals you could build cannons from your base to enemy one
I can't believe AI tried to cheese him only to give Grant easy thumbnail!!
So if anyone is curious, the campaign pretty much just uses the insane Ai in the editor. So it’s not really an “Uber AI” but rather a Blizzard made Ai
Impossible, AI on Aiur! It is they who have been cheesing the Conclave!
I had so much more trouble on the defense mission. Saw way more templar drops, my scouts kept getting stormed and siege tanks were blasting my high ground cannons. Don't know why the tanks kept transforming on this run but it would have been real nice for me.
Those high ground cannons were disgusting haha
They brought DA BOYS!
In Soviet Russia, AI cheeses YOU!
I agree that a cool defensive position with waaaves of enemies is much cooler, that's why I really like they are billions
Kinda wish you went on the offense in the defense mission, just to style
Commenting to point out he did in fact name it The AI Tried To Cheese Me (exclamation point). It checks out, folks.
Mass reavers looks pretty cool. Just a big slow doom carpet of slugs.
ARREST ME??
You are right, of course.
Don't know if anyone suggested it before but I would like to see you play the Brood War Alternate mod
I agree that AI and general level of challenge should be greater in Reversed. Even then, as late as the Death Wave is, without cheese that GGG does, I think it would be really difficult to defend. Regardless, that is approximately where the level of AI should be.
Who knew that Omega squadron belong to "unused" and not the fleet of the executor xD. Funny I thought Omega went to the dominion along with duke.
If grant would know how happy I am when he plays sc1 , he would do it every day 😂😂
Damn what a good trades, reaver for cannon XD
You mentioned wanting to try some other mods after finishing the Protoss campaign. Any interest in getting back into the UED AI Project you started a while ago?
pretty sure that big wave was about 800 supply of units XD
GGG Himself enjoyed a timed defense mission?!!?!?!
30:15 "Starcraft Aiis never bad on defense missions, they can never do much"
Grant, did you block out Countdown on a sheer PTSD induced-event?
For how easy defense missions are, it’s funny that blizzards hardest mission is a defense mission lol (final Terran SC2)
Can't wait for them yo cannon rush you in the last mission.
Good luck with the last mission. It took me a few miserable hours to complete
Might need a few changes lol
R.I.P. spine crawler family 🙏🙏😔😛
where can i dl this campaign¡? looks fun
I'm curious as to how Grant will beat the final "Protoss" mission. I've been stuck on it for a while. I'm guessing it will require a lot of good Dark Swarm control?
Why didn't you build cannons? :P
Pretty sure Artosis Pylons were from Brood War.
Hammtaro
A
Dune
!
"cannons are pretty good"
I mean yeah. What other static defense causes the AI to simply go "I quit"?
are you sure the trial of tassidar is not a tower defense mission?
"Artosis Pylons are actually from Starcraft 2. They haven't been invented yet." made me laugh so hard I couldn't breathe.
Is it just me or was there no mission 6? I guess it is because it is a micro map so would be difficult to get the AI working correctly.
No installation/no build missions at all, apart from escape from aiur in brood war I think. Probably because you could win by concentrating forces, so designing a challenge is tricky.
I'm just thinking for the second mission, you must actually be unkillable by ground right? Like it's Starcraft 1 AI trying to get 200 dragoons up one single ramp, that alone will probably take more than 30 minutes for them to get more than a handful into your base.
Oh boy 2am
30:00 so you are making the grant cannon?
Omega Squadron from the unused faction
6:10 I know what you mean Grant. I saw you laying down the pylons and was weirded out by the perspective
I got some hate last time I said this but I'll say it again. Reavers just aren't that good as a mono battle unit. They did decent work at 8:10 because they had something buffering for them and 18 of them weren't all spending 300 minerals overkilling one zealot 10 times over.
Sometimes it works out allright but GRANT stop making asumptions you can't possibly know the answer yet xD like the defense mission, 5 minutes in, only one protoss attack from the enemy "So apparently the terran doesn't attack" XD
Do you ever look at the minimap?
this defense mission was a bit dissapointing, fully expected mass bcs and carriers almost all the time, isntead they kept conga lining marines and vultures :(
atleast the last attack was fun