Why the IFBB Judging System is a JOKE!!! (plus the #1 step to improve it)
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- Опубліковано 10 лип 2024
- In this video we take an in-depth look at the obscure IFBB judging process, which leaves a lot to be desired IMHO. I argue that the scoring system needs to be revamped to allow for greater transparency.
Featuring interview clips from Phil Heath, Big Ramy, Dorian Yates, Steve Weinberger, Ron Harris, Jose Raymond, Tony Freeman, plus a short clip from the 2004 Olympia Challenge Round, and even a brief cameo by the one and only Dr Evil :P
Original footage:
Jose Raymond: • Judging bodybuilding c...
Tony Freeman: • Toney Freeman Intervie...
Phil Heath: • Phil Heath Interview (...
Ron Harris: • Did Phil Heath Deserve...
Steve Weinberger: • Kai vs Cedric: Head Ju...
Big Ramy: • Video
Dorian Yates: • DORIAN YATES | JOHN HO...
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The interview with big Ramy in Arabic was accurately translated.
Thanks for confirming this.
Yes i am also egyptian
some can speculate why they maybe told him that
ramy was actually very big but lacked a bit of forms
@@aasserelzoghby6781 Hello
This is like a beauty contest, no one knows the judging criteria...
Because it is
That’s exactly what bodybuilding is. Why else would ALL of these guys be injecting SEO’s?
They should ask the contestants to share a bit about themselves and discuss how they can fight global warming or advocate for children's rights around the world.
For real. Bodybuilding is great and all but I never understood how we could regard it as a "sport"?
@@stephenbrand5661 they dont😂. Yes, PEDs but not SEOs
Excellent editing and framing of the argument. It really builds well and analyzes the issue from several angles.
+1
Wow tom you nailed this vid spot on i bet youl get people copying this
Thanks I hope they do! It needs to be addressed
@@Tomn8er defo pal this vid youve done is mint the ifbb is courupt the favourate wins basicly this needs to be adresed hope this goes viral chris howell phd
Dave from RX Muscle spoke with Steve and Phil lost the front and side poses. Phil’s midsection throws off his physique. Pretty simple actually. Your almost as butt hurt as Phil lol. It’s a conspiracy!!!😂😂😂
@@roblockhart8410 i like you already 😂😂😂😂😋
Awesome work Tom
Toney freeman nailed it. If the judges were to say "we're looking for this", then it would be easier. I can understand phils confusion. His stomach is better than last year and everything else is identical yet he doesnt win. Unless the 2nd place guy last year wasnt even close to phil - i just dont understand the judges. Shawn had a couple parts better than phil - but i agree with phil - most of his parts were better than shawns. I think the judges new they screwed up last year and didnt want to do it again.
Love your views and this channel. I'm always screaming at the screen when Wineburger is being interviewed because it seems like these commentators are scared to ask him the important questions
Great video! Well researched, well argued, and full of passion for the sport!
By far the most intelligent commentator on bodybuilding!
Excellent analysis, each and every of your statements is so insightful it’s not even funny
Phil lost ONLY because they all of sudden decided they were going to put a TON more emphasis on the mid-section.
Anyway, you make some excellent points Tom.
Great video Tom. You made some good points here and it would be better if there was more clarification/transparency within the judging... Great clip from the Boston Mass. I love watching his videos.
Btw, I still remember how awesome I thought the "challenge" round was after ordering that Olympia on ppv. Triple H being apart of it made it even more interesting and then the backstage footage with Jay, Ronnie, and everyone else was priceless. I also think it was a step in the right direction, but I also understand why they stopped doing it. However, I wish they would at least try more new ideas and see how it goes with the fans instead of the same thing year after year.
Send it to Phil, this is great.
Greetings from Polnad
Great video, you deserve 100k subs, this video has quality editing, and very interesting interviews excerpts, very good assembled with a reasoned order.
Really good video dude, you can tell you invested a lot of time making it. Your channel deserves much more recognition in my opinion, but im sure it will blow up at some point if you just keep making great content like this.
A simple(ish) way to improve things would be to have full rankings for each mandatory pose. Right now with straight comparisons you are only judged according to the callout you’re in. So when someone with glaring weaknesses, i.e. Dorian Yates, loses the front double biceps he’s only 3rd in his callout. In reality he may not be in the top 10 in that pose. So if you rank every pose you still keep the same point system while punishing large weaknesses.
I've also noticed they haven't crowned an non English speaking winner since 1983, And a non American since 1997.
Your comment didn’t age very well I guess
@@carlossubero1687 it was an observation made two years ago, not a prediction.
@@captain0159 an observation with a not-so-hidden meaning that was proven false
Samir spoke perfect English. Wtf u talking about?
Whineburger is part of the issue. He knows his stuff but it is subjective and he likes what he likes and ignores other things. If you kiss up to him you get favorable placings. Look at Arash in classic physique this year. He is the head judge and he likes it that way so guys go up to him personally and pose and ask his advice to make him feel like a god.
Thank you so much for this video. The bodybuilding federations should watch this and think a lot about this
Nothing to add here. We've always agreed on this. PREACH!
I teach so you can only imagine how much the system bugs me.
Great video.
If you look at more bodybuilder interviews, you will realise that each of them approach judges and ask what they need to work on to improve their rankings. Winklar gets told a tigter waist, Rhoden gets told a wider back, Rammy Less size more conditioning, etc.
If they improve in their problem areas year on year, their placing improves - so look at it in a way that is similar to an annual performance assessment at work.
To set criteria is difficult when everyone is facing different issues.
4:27 "Since when have they cared" - Size has been something they wanted to cut back on for a while. It started with the womens Ms Olympia division where they told all the huge girls to lose 10-15lbs of muscle. The public was shocked at ultra-muscular women and it gained too much negative attention for the IFBB, so after they ripped apart Ms. Olympia women competitors, they went after Mr Olympia.
A Classic Physique division was created (For more appeal to their organisation), and the biggest guys on stage have been told to cut down their weight.
Is it a bad thing? Yes and No.
Yes because the idea behind the Olympia competitors is that everyone brings a "different" package to the stage to try to beat the others - this standardization is killing the competition.
No because for those that chase insane size, face big consequences. The amount of chemicals (insulin, GH, Tren, etc.) they have to ingest can prove fatal to a competitor, and they want to cut down the mortality rate.
When Jay Cutler discovered Phil he was his true self however that changed in 2011. It went to his head like a 12 gauge & he lost himself( meteoric success can do that to do). He may have fooled Jay in beginning by playing the role of a humble stundent/friend while sitting back secretly resenting the teacher & waiting for his time. Jay can see right through him now I bet. Unfortunaely the only way Phil can win is by losing it all, not wishing that on him but those that are being controlled by their ego needs their world to fall apart in order to contiplate change. I wouldn’t be surprised if he threw away his sliver medals. He thinks he’s better than everyone & needs a reality check....ASAP
What a comprehensive and well made video, showing sides without hiding any information. Thanks so much!
Good insight on all the unknown variables... Great job man.
You should make another best body parts video, like best Legs or midsection. I feel a best Legs video would be interesting
I appreciate your hard work man , your are amazing
you're welcome for using my 93 rear symmetry round pic. great vids tom
My god your videos are much better then most other
Where has your channel been my whole life?!?!? 🙌👍
Come on maaaan...it wasn't long it was interesting and fun to watch .....i agree with you about this discussion and i really want them to bring the challenge round back
Thanks, actually thought it was gonna be closer to 30min cuz had to do it piecemeal what with all the clips interspersed. Was surprised to see the final product ended up as short as it did otherwise I would've thrown in even more shit like why does the head judge telegraph who he has in front by placing them in the centre of the stage? (This is nice as a fan but potentially bad as it could influence the other judges)
That was a great video! very nicely done.
At 19:02, it looks like Rhoden was just repeating Dexter's history lol.
Dunno is Shawn Ray had a moment on stage like that with Yates...
When I rank who I think should win the Olympia based on everything I see.. the result is different compared to when I tally up each pose. I much prefer the outcome when I don't only tally up poses. Giving each pose equal weight is problematic, among other things. But this also goes against the idea that shows are won from the back.. because really that is only 2 poses...
Also, Steve said Phil lost because of his "waistline" (that's what Steve told Polumbo).. which is very interesting. Seems to be a new criteria. A good one. Since it throws off his whole physique apart from the back. Also his stage presence was just so problematic.. do they really want the champ to have that stage presence?
What Ramy said was super interesting! seems they're finally slowly moving towards a smaller more aesthetic direction (at least to a degree.. but still bigger than CP of course. Just enough to not have the guys look horrible, I'd wager).
And I think that is a very smart and obvious business move to make. The Classic Physique division seemed to test that water.. and the water sure is nice and warm.
i will try to say this in a simple way: "THANK YOU!"
Such an underrated bodybuilding channel.
Good work man.Many people was curious about the judging system where in the end you know everything about nothing
Just make the stomach vacuum a mandatory pose.
This was the best video about this that nobody has made or talked about.
They REALLY need to bring back the challenge round or make that part of scoring altogether. It really puts in prospective the audience’s view on who is winning
Could Eddie Brock from Spider Man tas have been a bodybu--
Wait, wrong channel. My bad. Also, dope vid as always!
play me a riff, Glenn
Franco's title win was maybe the biggest travesty in Olympia history. There are others I know but that one was an insult to everyone
14:40 - love your "jack-of-all-trades" description, and your example, Chris Dickerson...LOL. You could argue that Rhoden is the modern analog of Dickerson.. Really, no "wow-factor" either from Rhoden but actually, brought the best "overall package". My personal preference is the best overall package INSTEAD of scoring the best poses. One can argue that Arnold in 1980 brought the best overall package despite glaring weaknesses. Just look at any "relaxed pose" picture of the 1980 Mr. O, and there is no question, Arnold looks best.
They should put the challenge again!!! It would be sick to see the new bodybuilders do this with the social media beef they build up between themselves!
There’s more than “meats” the eye, Tommy.
You can’t eliminate those subjective bias tendencies, although I like your proposal to try and minimize them. But, the competitor needs to project an image of most worthy... to the very end...
For example: after posing, what is the composure of the contestant once they pose, then go back stage? Most guys drop and rest in front of the other competitors and staff because the guy’s exhausted. If I was part of a competitor’s training team, I’d be telling him, “Visualize how you’ll be back stage once the posing’s done. That’s what you’re training for! See yourself as a champion in that reality.” Whether we like it or not, the guy who looks great on stage, then has the gas to stand tall behind the scenes as “the best”, is a HUGE factor. Plus, it all connects back to the public image of the competitor leading into the competition. I could name names of guys that deserved higher placement in the criteria you present, but I won’t. Yet, I know why they never got that recognition.
great links man, really great.
the judging procedure is way too obscure and "simple". Maybe the IFBB assumes all bodybuilding fans are meatheads who wouldn't understand a more complex system, which wouldn't surprise me at all.
They should definetely tell us which bodybuilder won a certain pose in all call-outs, even though most of us already suspect that.But its not always possible to know what they are thinking. Judges probably have their preferences too, in regards to what they view as the ideal body type, or if they favour mass over conditioning or symmetry.
Also they have to clearly define what they consider ideal proportions. Technically a guy like Dorian Yates had great proportions, because his thigh was roughly 50 % larger than his calves, and his calves are more or less the same size as his arms.But to many bodybuilding fans he has lagging arms because most lifters favour the arm-dominant look, and throughout history guys with stand-out arms have gotten the nod more than often.
They also have to implement very strict ways of hitting the pose.The competitors in a certain call-out should all hit the pose at the same time, and be required to hold it for several seconds.Look how much times Kai Greene takes before he properly hits that back double biceps...that's silly.
Also they must not be allowed to twist, tilt or exaggerate certain positions.
Compare Dorian's way of hitting the back double biceps( upright with the legs close together showcasing his calves) with Phil Heaths for example( leaning way back and opening the legs to show off the glutes and quad sweep). Or compare Yates' back lat spread to Ronnie's, i mean i have been following bodybuilding since 2010 and honestly can't say who was better in that pose, Chris Aceto said on Rx muscle that Yates was better, but many would say Coleman, so what gives.Are all body parts equally important in a given pose?are the calves more important than glutes in a back pose?we don't know and they don't tell us.Technically the glutes are a larger more functional body part but as a straight male i dont think they should matter much.
Another major issue is that most online bodybuilding fans do not properly understand the conditioning terms.They have no idea what flat versus full means, or dryness, hardness, separation,grainy, muscularity etc really mean.The stupid stage backgrounds in the past decade or so with all the flashy lights, ads , screens make it worse.Compare that to the 90's backgrounds, or the lighting, it's night and day.Even a difference in the angles can alter how the fan at home understands anything.
The way posing routines are scored has to be explained also.What in their minds makes a great posing routine.A guy like Arnold was way better poser than say Sergio but didn't look as impressive in as many shots.How does that affect who ultimately wins the rounds...
Bodybuilding writers like Peter McGough have justified Dorian winning in 1997 and Cutler edging out Martinez in 07, yet the same McGough thinks Cutler should have beaten Coleman in 01 and 05, something most of us dont agree with.
The judges, the writers , no one really explains and breakds down this flawed judging system.
Is separation in certain body parts more important than other areas?Ronnie had striated glutes/hams/erectors that Flex never had but he didn't have striated latissimus , or feathered quads like Flex.And they deemed Flex to be not in shape because of such arguments....
And I could go on if i wanted...
Thx dude, I owe you actually for that Dorian one!
@NIKOS maybe his back wasnt the most detailed but his hams/glutes were always ripped
I don't undestand why you inverted everything about Dorian ! Thighs larger than calves 😨
Great Work it needs to change.watching a show is like NFL or NBA without a scoreboard lol
Interview Greg Douchette. He is a judge and his girlfriend is a judge. Would be a good collaboration
so accurate with your comment, the judges need show the score card of how they voted and for who & why
Great video. I also think that we want a simple answer on who is the champion and that's not possible. Plus, even in gymnastics or boxing (where you see the card of the judge each round) at the end of the day many disagree with the result.
Top vid Tom...right on point!!! watched it again. 15:38 Dorians v taper here is bad,not arching his lower back to bring the upper back closer to the cam and no biceps whatsoever,how on earth could he win this pose? smh.
It needs to stop being subjective, and give them objective standards to work for. These judges don't know anything, because they don't need to know anything.
The first night should be individual grading for each person. No side by side at all for anything. the judges should make a whole list of requirements and grade each person on a scale of 1 to 10. 10 being perfect. They judge on Conditioning, Symmetry, confidence, control, mandatory poses, quarter turns and so on. It should be a long and specific list. This night will only be about the technicality of bodybuilding. Those scores should be posted that night for everyone to see. There should be no secrecy.
The contestants, based on their score, are then separated into 3 groups: 1) places 1 to 6, 2) places 7 to 12, 3) places 13 to last. Once your in those groups you can only win those places in the finals. I think that is fair. Anyone worthy to be the champ will be in the first group.
The next night should be the only side by side comparisons with no set scoring scale. It's just simplely who do you think looks better. The point system is not necessary at this time because you already proved you are eligible for your placing so people in the first group are all possible champs, it's now just to see who's the best of the best.
The judging panel should be all former bodybuilders who have gained at least a pro card or they have been in the business a substantial amount of time.
I feel like the event should be recorded, and after the first showing.. the judges watch the tape and can make scoring-adjustments with all the tools available and with time to think about it for longer. Instead of being on the spot and needing to take in way more than is realistic...
I feel like in the finals they should get time to analyse the tapes too.
Nice video, well done!!
Tom you really speak the truth brother keep up the videos man I really enjoy them!!!!
I absolutely agree with your main argument about the need for clarity and transparency. I don't think Manion, Weinberger and the powers that be in IFBB and NPC really want that. So competitors lose out, but commercial interests and individual judges stand to gain. I've been a bodybuilding fan since early 1980's.
Where is ARNOLD ? what does he have to say about this
Scoring should be raw score from 1 to 10 for A) Symmetry B) Proportion B) Mass C) Condition D) Overall presentation (tan, posing, etc). This raw should be combined with mandatory and relaxed posing based on ranking. This will make bodybuilder more complete and they have to be in shape to pose for that long.
There’s no point in needing to know how the judges score..any eye can see who the winner is, the harder you work the more it will show and if you worked the hardest you will look that way.
It’s so tough nowadays to pick a winner based on mass, symmetry, balance, proportion and pose rounds. They’re all so close these days. One thing I do notice is many of them today, don’t show extremely developed calves like Dorian displayed in the day. Maybe we can start measuring their calves to biceps ratio to see who wins
the proportion round :)
When you steal 100,000 dollar bracelet they don’t want you to be the ambassador maybe that’s why he lost?
Loooool ! I dont believe that was the case but definelly the way fans see him helped the outcome.
I cant remember a Olympia winner lass popular than Phil. Look at Jay man SOOOOOO FUCKING HUMBLE !
15:48 that physique is ......wow
Great video man
An argument that's not made too often is how the first and second night are scored. Prejudging is clearly more valued by the judges than the Saturday show. It seems like they should be 50-50 but it's more like 65% prejudging. Kai gets thrown out of the running early only to destroy most competitors Saturday night. But there's no transparency which is the primary issue.
First of all they should judge all 3 rounds! 2 comparison rounds and 1 individual posing round. The 2 comparison rounds should be judged transparently in terms of conditioning, symmetry and every mandatory pose and the 4 relaxed poses. So there would be hell of alot of points to be given. They should rank them in terms of each criteria! And the posing conditioning, symmetry would get certain a bonus factor that has to be determined.
Just as an example posing conditioning, symmetry with the factor x5.
Example for perfect score= 8 mandatory + 4 relaxed = 12 points in 2 rounds thats 24 points + posing conditioning, symmetry each factor x5 (just example) = another 15 points. So the perfect score would be 39 points that one judge could give. with 7 judges the lowest hand highest will be cut = 39 * 5 = total perfect score 195! and not 5.... all that should be reported transparently... maybe even after each round like they do in other sports.... but thats just my 2cts.... such a system would be great for both athletes and fans alike because everybody would know why a certain bb won and in which parts he exceeded.
very good commentary. nice editing. great points on how they should fix the judging system. over all a great video. and a very bad Arnold impression. like really bad. but i subscribed anyways. wondering how you have only 15k subs after 2 years. hope this improves!
lol thanks. The Arnold impression is deliberately bad because I'm copying a parody (watch the old Mad TV skits and you'll see what I'm going for). As for 15K subs... NSP didn't have many himself early on, probably less than that after 2 years. His channel only blew up in 2017 in like his 4th year. Not saying mine will do the same because it probably won't but just to give some perspective.
'Shawns biceps weren't as good as mine, his triceps weren't as good as mine, his back, his hamstrings, his calves....But I'm not gonna discredit the guy.." lol! Does Phil even see the humor here?
Agreed. The scoring needs to be refined. BUT in Phil's case, he wasn't asking for explanations when he was winning.
Tony freeman is actually one of my favorite bodybuilders. The size he brought with the waist!! Completely unreal and soooo cool
*Bro, you inspired me become a content creator💪👊*
Its really mind boggling. It's like playing a football game but you don't know if a touchdown is worth 6 or 1 point or a field goal is 3 or 10 or maybe just rushing 10 yards is 100 points.
Egyptian fan here confirms the translation
Amazing video !
Nice work. Respect.
Phil sounded so disappointed and baffled in his interview by he response or lack there of, from the Federation after the competition.
I hope this goes viral
Agree 100%, however I believe the dark secret here, which is no longer really a secret, is that it is way too political when it comes to judging and corrupt as well, transparency would shatter that but there is also probably too much money and power involved for that to happen. Perhaps partly, but full transparency and accountability? It may prove too difficult to achieve.
This type of thing is why me and a lot of bodybuilders don't compete. The judging system is a total joke, and the best guy usually doesn't win. Most fans know that 2nd or 3rd place actually won the show, but first place is just a friend of a friend.
One of your best videos
Great video Tom.
Judge desire give little test to Phil, "Phil no to easy 8x0, maybe next year"
This video needs to get viral
I'm 70 years old and I still don't know how to judge a bodybuilding contest, ..But, I didn't know there was a controversy! Shawn Rhoden simply looked the best. That is the about the best conditioning I've seen in almost 20 years.. but I also realize people will never take the Shawn Rhoden like they do those loudmouth controversial guys.. So he will always be dissed to a point. . But let's give him some credit.. He deserved that title.. and please remember this: In the real world 'IF" doesn't count. Professional bodybuilding, much like major league baseball has a real problem living in reality..For some weird and bizarre reason they are always stuck 40- 50 years ago.. really freaking weird
Nice pictures in the video :)
Nice vid bro
I think it's one of those things where the writing is on the wall. My hunch. One thing I'm sure of, they didn't like the whole bubble gut fiasco of last year. It was embarrassing. They never said anything. But, they felt it.
Anyways, don't see why Phil is sulking over this. So what? He's still 7 time Mr. O champ. And, he might come back and retain the title. Humility can go a long way. Kai has yet to win his.
Bingo, Great piece.
Victor vs Jay 2007 was all the evidence we EVER needed on top of all the other screw jobs leading up to and after that year.. I wonder if Jay Cutler "The great guy people say he is" ever mailed that Sandow to Victor? 🤔
Man, i have to say tho, put 5 guys next to each other and I'll still have a hard time judging them properly because they can't hold the pose for longer than 3 seconds, so how am i going to take my time to judge them well?
If you divide the judges to judge half and half instead of all at once, it might be more accurate to get a judgement by points, because they would have more time to focus on 2 or 3 guys and count how many flaws they have.
In this last Mr Olympia, people only focused on comparing Shawn and Phil, while Bonac and Roelly were there too, totally dismissed for 3rd and 4th place, heck, in some poses even Roelly looked better than Phil, but they focused too much on narrowing the competition.
Pretending to judge a lineup while they all flex at the same time for 2 or 3 seconds, is a hard task, so they have to rely on tricks and fame to choose one winner, that's why sometimes the placings don't make sense.
Ramy was crazy good on the last night, but he was systematically out of the top 5 the night prior, so his shape didn't matter on Saturday.
Colour of trunks 🤣🤣😂😂... That's lit
I don't want to see classic body it was good back but now we want to see freak forever
Speak for yourself.
A straight up perfect, on point video
The fact that they gave Coleman the Ab&Thigh pose over Dexter proves EVERYTHING that's wrong! LOL, ridiculous.
I understood every thing big ramy said because i am egyptian
The back is way overemphasized. Basically you can look like Big Lenny, but as long as your back looks like Dorian, they should give you a win?
big lenny is GOAT stfu
Isn't it weird that Steve Weinerberg was a competitive powerlifter but is still the head judge of the Olympia. ?
If you think bodybuilding is a sport. You should ask Santa for a new computer next year
Don't know why people get so hung up on this. It's a sport the same way golf or bowling or darts is a sport. I'm using the term loosely because it gets repetitive saying "bodybuilding" over and over, and to call it a pageant is disrespectful to all the work these guys put in.
@@Tomn8er naturally no disrespect to the competitors. I feel a sport means you are somehow in control of the outcome.
Quoting a Wikipedia article on the matter: "not rely on any "luck" element specifically designed into the sport." Here is where it fails, IE the judges like the shorts "color more"
The outcome seems to be perpetually predetermined. Olympia specifically is it's own organization with no need or desire for transparency. They have their own private club, and award their members as they see fit. Not a sport. I watch it because it's entertaining. Thanks for the reply
Great video
thanks for sharing this video
19:29 Dexter losing this pose was utter bullshit Ronnie was literally known for having a horrible midsection💀
Ramy is not telling the truth Coleman was way better than him and he should be close to a 100% no one can beat him
Phil heath is a thief stole 100,000 bracelet
This video makes so much sense....
LOL that head judge
13:10 isn't this basically the same as the electing system in europe vs the system in the US?