This could have been Emperor of Man part 5, but I thought better a single stand alone - have some more creative ideas on just what the EMPS is all about, tell me below Also Malice : ua-cam.com/video/TXwMUjqH7mA/v-deo.html
The inquisition is coming for you You have outdone yourself We have forgiven you for your “hypothetical” thought in your other videos But that was the last straw You Are Done
You know most of UA-cams videos are subtle about their heresy. Luetin makes sure its right their in the title. Really makes the Inquisitors jobs easier.
I've fully embraced it myself at this point. The "heresy! Inquisitor, right here!" joke has gotten really, REALLY old at this point. It really does kill the vibe for anyone that's not an Imp Simp.
It seems logistically unsound to go through all that time and effort to turn a young boy into a Space marine (and that assuming he doesn’t die in the process) only for him to be quickly used up by the golden throne when the imperium can stick to the method it already uses unless of course space Marines burn out slower then normal humans.
@@thesmilinggun-knight9646 So magnus would have sat in the chair, bolstered by his legion keeping the web way going. By that logic, gray knights could power the emperor in there without killing that many people a day. Why not do it that way? Gray knights needed elsewhere?
@@0datdude0 That is such a waste. A Grey Knight is a focal point of the Emperors power, training, and equipment. Simply feeding their energy, maybe 10 other pycers, would do the same.
My favorite part of 'the master of mankind' is when the Emperor is questioned how he didnt forsee the betrayal. He says that forsight is like seeing an island off the coast and saying that you could get there by boat or swimming or even flying, but you cant see the currents or waves, or the wind, or whether there may be storms, or the islanders attack your ship before you can make it to shore. He says he can see the target, the possible future that he wants, but cannot see how to get there. And if that is true, then he got absolutely rekt.
The only problem is that, what if it’s a lie. If he wanted to portray being wrong and down play his ability, to further the mystery and lies he’s already spun
@@BigTylt could be. I find the amount the emperor got wrong is downright intentional. Sure maybe it’s obvious to most, but it doesn’t get said enough. At this point the amount, the emperor did incorrectly is intentionally written that way, which means it Hass to prove a point in a narrative, Most things are intentional. sometimes there’s fluff, but even then fluff is usually building character in some capacity. I know we look at things through the lens of the universe, but why did the writers continually write the emperor doing the wrong thing?
I always assumed it was a “two birds one stone” thing for the Imperium to feed psykers to the Golden Throne - gets rid of potential daemon-fodder, and keeps the Emperor going. Three birds, if you count keeping the portal shut.
@@DAAllan82 isn’t that covered by “keeping the emperor alive”? The psykers used by the astronomican aren’t the ones fed to the golden throne - they’re specially selected for the task rather than just “any and all human psykers who aren’t lucky enough to be recruited for something else”.
This heresy shall be investigated by the inquisition, blessed be he who vowed to saved humanity from all the dangers in the universe. Once again, thank you sir for your dedication to this lore. Your work is outstanding!
The real Primordial Truth of Warhammer 40K is ultimately being War in Heaven, as it's being the origin of every species and factions including Chaos factions within Warhammer 40K settings
If you bring temporary pockets of order into chaos, it's just more chaos to the status quo of chaos. All that effort, just to make more intricate offerings to the gods of change.
@@maintaint3003 You're wrong, Chaos in Warhammer 40K has origin in Realm of Souls after being fucked beyond recognition after War in Heaven periods, even Necron, T'au to even Leagues of Votann and other dim souls doesn't care about Chaos or anything in Immaterium Let alone Tyrannids that's just there to consume every being, including any temporal thought-forms of Chaos Pantheon in The Warp
I remember reading the shaman origin in the 4th ed rulebook. I always liked that version because it made the imperium an entirely human story. Having the emperor being a weird alien thing kinda robs the story of it's humanity.
I remember that shaman origin. I remember seeing the original illustration of the emperor in the first Rogue Trader 40k book my dad had. Now a copy goes for $300+ but can still read it online, it’s an old picture for sure.
@Peniley Majorey Yeqh, the meme stuff is funny I even chuckle qt the whole Emperor is a dark age creation Its been confirmed he wasnt Erda and other perpetuals like Pius confirm him before the golden age, all the way back to medieval times
@Peniley Majorey How is "the Ork believing the Emperor is still alive was the reason the Emperor is still living." filled with BS to the brim? That's Great! That's hilarious! xD How is it BS though when that's *exactly* how the Warp works though?
@@mikejonesnoreally Hm interesting theory here, if the Orks believe red is more faster, if they believe the emperor is alive, would that make him alive? :D
When I went through the history of Emperor and how he tried to do everything he did, I always had a feeling that ever since he revealed himself, he had to rush. Even though it was taking decades or centuries, I always had a feeling that the Emperor is fighting against time. That's why he had to cut corners and resolve to violence and slaughter. Because he had no time for pleasantries, things had to be done as fast as possible, otherwise it will be too late. Of course I'm talking about galactic scale so it's not a matter of minutes but thousands of years. Which in galactic scales... is basically a matter of seconds. :D
Probably because he felt that time was limited for the galaxy, and it is when you look at the threats, mainly the Tyranids who have wiped out more stronger galaxies in the past. (though i'm just assuming)
@@shcdemolisher Tyranid Invasion, Necron awakening, Ork Empires like at Ullanor, he had a lot of problems to deal with and not a whole lot of time to due so.
he was the only one whose mind could encompass the scale of reality ...and see the cost of failure , always alone no matter how big the crowd and with the fate of his species for the rest of time on his mind forever ....
@Thisis Gettinboring I think that during Age of Technology the Emperor felt like proud father, seeing his humanity standing strong without being held by hand all the time. He only decided to act when absolutely necessary, when it was obvious that humanity wont be able to get themselves out of this one by themselves. There was no great leader or new emerging society to be seen. He had to act openly.
My 2 cents: The Emperor has known all along he would become interred upon the golden throne, the rise of the dark powers, the slow decay of the Imperium and his unwilling ascendency to false godhood through the ecclesiarchy. He's also set in place a master plan to use the warp against itself and to mimic the fall of the Eldar towards a just cause. The warp manifests every soul's thought and emotion. The Emperor is now worshipped as a god by uncounted billions and has been for some time. The throne keeps him anchored to this life by a very tenuous thread, but alive all the same. Millenia of worship has been coalescing in the warp and his powers sustained by the diligent efforts of the black ships. What if his long term plan all this time was to emulate the birth of Slaanesh with himself as the focus? If, after all hope is lost and the Terminus Decree is enacted, the Emperor's living body is terminated allowing his soul to finally break free of his mortal prison and birth himself in the warp as a new god of man, just as Slaanesh was for the eldar in eons past? With the powers of a god at his command he could shut the gates of hell and forever deny chaos the material plane, saving humanity from the ruinous powers for all eternity
This theory makes sense and is one I personally subscribe to, but even if the Emperor became a legitimate God wouldn't the others just jump him like they always do when one of them grows too powerful
This could also be true without him having benevolent intentions. Making him another tyrant god if he succeeds. He could also become a god this way without this being his intention at all, it doesn't need to be planned.
I like the theory that the Golden Throne was made to kind of "repair" the Emperor, like a battery. Designed only to be "charged" for a set amount of time and then stopped so that the Emperor could return and lean man forward again...but then they never stopped. So if they ever do, by this theory, he would be filled with so much psychic power who knows what it could possibly do.
I liked the inverse of that theory. Namely that the Golden Throne was a device capable of taking the nearly-dead Emperor and amplifying his Warp energies for the Astronomican. Big E is the battery for this ostensibly-heretek device, the wire plugged into a Golden Throne router!
The golden throne was in ORIGNAL fluff a life support system, later when GW wanted to make more novles (of various quality) it became part of the web way. The ORIGINAL golden path was to make all mankind imune and invisable to the warp.
50:20 Another theory to note is that Malcador the Sigillite exists, and the Emperor - never did! He was a golem, a psychic projection of Malcador. The one sitting on the golden throne IS the Sigillite.
Note about Magnus sitting on the golden throne: at 13:10 you say that possibility was only shown to us by Chaos BUT in The Path of Heaven ***Spoiler warning*** the White Scars find a prototype golden throne facility (Darkglass) containing communications saying only the proposed Primarch could maintain a stable connection. This is a non-chaos source suggesting Magnus sitting on the Throne was the plan (though he is not named specifically)
Also it needs to be stated more that the golden throne wasn't finished and I somehow doubt the Emperor would be as short sighted as to make Magnus as a really big temporary battery. It would make more sense then that the Emperor was working to perfect the design so that someone (such as Magnus) could sit on the golden throne and use it without burning themselves away.
My own head cannon is that the Golden Throne was completed as you describe but was damaged by Magnus when he was trying to warn the Emperor which has lead to the level of strain the Throne puts on users now. I agree that the Emporer would not have planned for the Throne to burn through Magnus (or himself for that matter)
Headcanon but could it be that the shamans actual goal in mass suicide was to create a entity in the warp that was the first and only human God created in the warp and force it to be born in reality? Believing that humanity needed a god like entity capable of combating the terrors both in the warp and in real space. The emperor for his part, knew what he was but he didn’t want to be the human god. Actively rejecting his true purpose in hopes of achieving the same goal in another way, not as a human made warp god made real but as a man.
Just a theory but consider the idea that psychic power across humanity is neither created nor destroyed much like matter. So when all the ancient psycher/ shaman were in a nice small population on 1 planet, their powers were outrageous being that it was it that all gathered in one point. Then follow the story as it is known. Sensing changes in the warp and problems with reincarnation they gather and combine their already outrageous powers in an attempt to hold it all in one vessel. Perhaps it worked but not perfectly and now psychic energy randomly appears across the galaxy in humans randomly. In that case, the golden throne and imperium itself could be seen as a tool to reclaim those lost psychic energies by bringing them once again back to the emperor to be added back into the collective.
@@harrietr.5073 "And his religion oppresses innocent Human and non-Human minorities, even it's own believers." yeah, it doesn't really even stand out that much
I am a real fan of the suggested lore that the emperor was a techno barbarian warlord in one of his many lives, and that the eagle aquilla was his jolly roger flag in those times.
Hey Leutin, I believe this is your finest video ever made. It’s not a crazy deep dive, you show restraint and in that restraint there is elegant storytelling. It’s perfect length with a perfect subject. As a years long listener I decided to share my opinion with you. You’ve come a long way. Well done.
Oi! I live for that manotinous level of detail most days! Then again, I'm a jeweler...so I am biased on this subject... Luetin! If you made a long form video going into extreme detail every day, I'd be there without exception that does not involve me being dead or without internet! Come on everyone, no matter your favoured level of detail, let's give Papa/Inquisitor Luetin a round of applause. Indefinitely. "I will shoot the first of you who [stops clapping]!" - my/his/our/every commissar.
Kind of loved the twist in the Cawl book where he's had this memory of the emperor talking with him, and its actually from one of the people he was merged with but the emperor was addressing him by name knowing that individual would eventually become part of Cawl, even then he couldn't look upon the emperor
"When discussing the throne device, he speaks to it as some culmination of human knowledge, and he somewhat can't take _all_ the praise for its achievement." It was purchased from Nagash during one of his garage sales.
Edit: Remember The Emperor sacking the Tower of Babel with his first Warmaster in lost prehistory. They were utilizing that forerunner language to encode the secrets of the material universe. The Emperor wanted to use it, Oll Persson thought it was too dangerous and brought the tower crashing down. The Emperor is a friend to humanity. At one point Malchador or someone else remarks that the EoM could have totally disgarded the human form for his new race, but said he was something of a sentimentalist, and if he started off from scratch, what would be the point. This can also be seen in the disparity of his treatment of baseline humans and astartes - he respected Men, he used Astartes.
Thats a good point, he always seems to have at-least a slight care for humanity, even if he treats them more like animals than equals. But astartes and even the primarchs were used more like equipment in his armoury than actual living beings
@@zXPeterz14 It's not what I've seen/read. It's more like he has a capacity for the things he has created. For the rest it's more like he's caring more for what they may become, a sort of "for our children" situation. The Emperor is behaving a lot like an Old One. Remember how the Old Ones refused to grant the Necrontyr the secrets to sunscreen, without further elaboration? It was too small for them, is my guess. A LOT of what the Old Ones did is eeringly echoed in The Emperor, and it's sort of Tolkienesque. Morgoth+Sauron -> Sauron+Saruman. Silmarils -> One Rings. Beren+Tinuviel -> Aragorn+Arwen. You get the picture. Conclusion: The Emperor is in actuality an Old One, maybe the last one, and hellbent on revenge. His compassion for humanity is no more than that of an admiration of something someone else has created, and his love for his creations is because it's what drives the Old Ones to create living things, like daughters embracing their dolls.
Exactly. I don't think the emperor is a "false" god. I don't think he's a god at all. He didn't want to be worshipped and forbid it originally. I didn't know what was going to happen with him being "dead" but now it seems kind of clear. With everyone worshipping him, and him absorbing millions of psykers, he is about to become a being capable of challenging the chaos gods to save humanity once and for all.
I always liked the concept of the Emperor being a "Weapon of last resort" made by Dark Age of Technology humans. I.e.: He's a bio-engineered contingency plan in the event of humanity's downfall. This would explain why he kinda does not show up until the final hour. He was not 'born' until things got bad. His memories and the shaman story either a lie or a fabrication. His mission would be to serve humanity at all costs, an almost AI level of thinking that he takes up explaining the coldness he shows everyone. He's not a man nor a god, he's a weapon.
I agree he is a weapon made by man kind in the golden age or the dark age. I have been attacked on this on a few other channels. Not a STC, a weapon that is a man.
@@wanderingwonder111 no I’m kidding. Search STC 40k lore on UA-cam you’ll get an idea where I’m coming from. This guy Luetin has a good vid on it. It’s all dumb af but it’s kinda fun and basically I’m proposing that the universe was kinda run by the AI still as man said- but in a weird weird way. Like you feel bad for the simulation type isht
I’ve always imagined him as being one of those fabled, mythic Sumerian kings who were reported to living thousands of years-dude couldn’t keep up the façade so he peace’d out leaving them to collapse.
that's how long people used to live (not necessarily that king though). Our lives were being extended as God was residing with us, at which point He set our lives to roughly 120 years, which is entirely reasonable given proper health and not eating a processed garbage diet. Neanderthals are actually the skeletons of these ancient people; bone development continues and leads to a bigger brow, whereas the rest of the body is indistinguishable. Even scripture says these older people look someone strange compared to a younger person; there are young humans who were able to meet some of the last remaining long lifespan people before they died.
@@AR15andGODbro that’s a wildest take on Neanderthals I’ve ever seen. By this theory, why are they genetically distinct and why is a prominent brow seen in all other great apes like gorillas?
@@thesincereone2886it’s science we have these things called telomeres and at birth we are supposed to live 120 yrs but the more we eat bad foods and put other unhealthy things in our bodies it shortens our telomeres length which shortens our lifespan as well lol he doesn’t need any medicine that’s just science do some research on it it’s really interesting
Well half of us are only getting into 40k because of your amazing videos. I was sick for 2 weeks and had never really touched 40k, I only knew of it’s existence. I couldn’t do anything but play your videos while i suffered in bed. Not only did your videos ease my suffering, they made me into a hardcore 40k lore master. A universe I hadn’t even known anything about only 2 months ago.
I was always fond of the idea of the Emperor just being a human. An exceptionally aberrant human certainly, but still a human. It could also be that the reason why people are unnerved by his true face is that he's just hideously deformed behind the image he projects. If he was the result of extreme natural mutation, he probably wouldn't be beautiful on top of everything else. Ultimately, I prefer the idea that the Emperor ultimately meant well. A deeply flawed person who dedicated himself to his species and ultimately paved the road to literal hell with his good intentions. It really emphasizes the tragedy of the Imperium if it was founded in good faith and spiraled horribly out of control, instead of being an intentionally doomed project from the start.
I always liked this theory best as well. A very uptight arrogant man with good intentions and the patience of a toddler. In the M41 I do think he's become a God though. Over 10000 years of constant worship has elevated him. Same kind of way Slaanesh appeared
I always found his claim of being "just a man" entirely laughable. He's immortal. To be human is to die. He ain't human. All these so-called perpetuals are just daemons - only thing that makes sense to me.
A very minor thing I noticed in the Malice / Emperor connection.... the skull iconography. Malice's symbol is a skull stylized to be white/black much like Yin and Yang. And the symbol of the skull is prominent on almost everything the Imperium touches. Who knows if that leads credence to the theory, and whether or not that was intentional on Luetin's part, but it stood out to me very clearly during that segment of the video.
One thing that always made me think the emp is just acting, the way he forces people to see him as human. It always describes him as this giant golden being impossible to even look at, and yet then the next thought forced into their minds is he is “unquestionably human”, even though there is no reason to think that. The only reason anyone ever thinks he is a real human is because he forces them.
I always viewed it as the emperor telling them subtlely "I am human, my astartes are human, my custodes are human...you too are human." Essentially saying that all humans can and should aspire to be as powerful as gods. After all the emperor was born from human souls.
Or our lore is intentionally vague and not entirely accurate about the origins of the imperium and his appearance was highly dramatized over the millenia. Also I think the thought that he was actually a human is much better
I really like the connection mad between E and Malice. Whether Malice is literally the same being or if they're just connected in some way is really interesting. It adds a little more spice to his potential dealings with the chaos gods too.
To me this all sounds like a consequence of having a bunch of different writers/authors with their different views and opinions of 40K not coordinating very well. This is mostly apparent in the Horus Heresy book series, where the same characters will have vastly different personalities depending on the author that happens to be writing the novel in question. I also cant help but to consider the potential motives of certain authors, as some like to portray Chaos or the Imperium in a positive or negative light based on their own personal opinions in regards to morality or any other number of things.
Breaking the fourth wall is not the point of this speculation. The point is to use said different motives, different styles and create a cohesive picture out of them. Most of the novels are written in the point of view of someone which is a useful tool in building the narrative. My 6 year old son made the same point as you, now do better.
@@castor3020 "My 6 year old son made the same point as you, now do better." For someone who just made such an illogical implication.. You know what, never mind. I'd have a more productive time reactivating my Twitter. For any future readers, DaBestEmporer is doing a thing called "speculation." Same as Leutin. His speculation, however, just happens to sit on the other side of that fourth wall. Maybe speculating the implications of authors and how they effect the portrayal of character motivations and agendas isn't what you want to do, but the conclusions drawn from widening the scope of consideration are no less valid. If I start spending twice as much every month on gasoline, and you wished to study and speculate on what caused this change in my life, you may have a hard time finding a valid conclusion if you arbitrarily limit your scope to excluding the fact that "gas prices doubled" because it exists "outside the scope of my own motives." The people who are writing the story are every bit as much involved in the hows and whys of characters and who are they are at different points in time as the story events themselves. And sometimes, you may find understanding of a character's motives by understanding the author's motives. Not that it's mandatory: It isn't. But it isn't harmful, either. You can ignore this train of thought if it interferes with your immersion, but pretending this train of thought is stupid or illogical is just backwards. No, you're just extremely easily offended and tend to portray anger as "righteousness." In otherwords, you'd fit right in with the Imperium.
I agree 100%. This was a well known problem with all of the old Star Trek Series. They had some episodes that were phantastically well written and imagined SCiFi Moral and Ethical drama and they had utter garbage Episodes that should have never been considered. Basically, if you binge watch the whole Run you get a horrendously bad impression of some of the shows vs. what you woudl experience if someone who had done so before made you a watch list that excludes all the stupidity and inconsistency. In multi writer settings it IS necessary to filter.....
I know it was more of fun speculation, but I really like that idea of Malice and the Emperor being connected. Not exactly being the same entity, but being connected in more passive ways, like ignoring each other as they pass by in the warp or perhaps Malice telling his followers to do something that helps out the Emperor in some way, or vice versa. Almost like the Eldar death god in a way, helping out the Emperor in some way could help empower Malice. Both might be Chaos and Order in their most extreme form, so this Yin and Yang might be able to work together to wipe out anything in between before finally turning on one another. A cool plot a few decades down the line might be, once all the other Chaos Gods are out of the way, the galaxy vs. Malice. One last battle as the galaxy burns in one enormous exterminatus-like conflict.
Me too. I think it makes the most sense for the emperor to be his post-malak title, and that he became a sort of reluctant ally or champion to Malal, and that it was Malcador who proposed this, as neither could see any other way to effectively oppose the other chaos gods. (it also kinda explains why 'alcador' so strangely altered his name at some point and why 'Malak' was so signficant from a symbolic perspective, given the literary similarity to the original name of the renegade god.) It could also quite conveniently explain how and why the emperor of mankind seems to so rapidly alternate between sincere benevolence and care for humanity and ruthless tyrannical arrogance and cruelty, as he desperately tries to maintain his sanity and humanity while Malal slowly but irrevocably eats away at the emperor's soul. I could go on speculating but yeah, really cool idea.
@@zacherytobin6434 Could also explain why the Emperor has failed to regenerate. It's not only the astronomicon burning up his soul, but a far darker entity slowly gnawing away at it. Like Oryx and his worm, the Emperor will always be guttering down towards his death, unless he finds some way out of it. Perhaps the reason the Great Crusader needed to be done so quickly was because the Emperor needed to find some way to combat Malal, and he couldn't do that while having two coordinate a galaxy wide war. To be honest, Malal gnawing on his soul would recontextualize or otherwise reframe everything the Emperor did, does, or will ever do. Which is why it will be years until anything like that gets revealed, because that revelation alone shakes the entire setting to its core, speculate but it is fun to speculate and dream. Perhaps if Games Workshop doesn't end up doing that, it would be something of a missed opportunity.
@@irishspartanstudios I thought the Emperor couldn't regenerate his body because it required a lot of psychic energy and focus to perform, and he can't take his focus off of sealing the webway for even a second.
I still think that one of the most grimdark interpretations of the Emperor is that he was just a man trying his best. With all the faults that come with being human but being so far from it.
I like this too, there’s a line in some book that says the emperor overestimated the Zenos threat and it’s implied that distracted him a bit from chaos. It’s also said somewhere else that the other perpetuals viewed him as impatient, a very human trait
Well, it's almost self evident that he is just a man, he didn't necessarily deny that, he could never have conceived of something as stupid and terrible as the imperium if he was truly above humanity.
This is what I believe the most. Used his thousands of years of research and experience to guide the human race out of extinction. Being immortal he understands that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Thats why he's so brutal in his ways. Although now I believe he's about to become a "chaos god" and take the fight to them.
I have a theory that the Emperor is and always was a being of the Warp, humanity’s desire for a savior that has been given enough ‘belief’ to become ‘real’. King Arthur, Jesus, Moses, and many more have fed him to a point where he was able to become a physical being.
that would be a mind fuck, BUT if he shows up in 8000bc with the first agricultural cites as civilization and religion is evolving, he might end up being all of them
And Hitler, Napoleon, Julius Caesar, Hong Xiuquan, George Washington, Richard the Lionheart, Muhammed... Yeah, the Emperor is basically just all of them wrapped into one guy.
@@soccerandtrack10 It's actually deeper than that. Tzeencth might be the only chaos god who understands that sentient beings have to survive in order for them to survive. When it talks about the Emperor foreseeing the extinction of humanity and stepping in to prevent it, Tzeentch would've have also stepped in to keep the "great game" going.
"I’m honoured, really. I had no idea that the High Lords of Terra had taken such an interest in my work. Pity that recognition did not come earlier. So like the Imperium to only acknowledge talent once it goes to the opposition." - Quavarian, Makov. Heretek.
If the Emperor was interred on the Golden Throne at the culmination of the Heresy in 014.31 that's 10,985 years to the present setting, that 4,012,266 days (accounting for leap years), so that's over 4 BILLION souls he's nommed on so far
I'm personally of the opinion that the Emperor is the spirit of order made incarnate. It's what made him anathema to the chaos entities. This order might not be benevolent, but there's at least some sort of sense that thinghs are as they should be. All that matters is the order of things and all dissidents must be silenced permanently. All will obey.
I've only played Warhammer 40k - Dawn of War on PC and was never really interested in the tabletop and especially not the Lore, but i stumbled across your videos here on youtube a while ago and you made me buy my first Book of Warhammer 40k and trying to make the first steps into the world of 40k, so thank you.
At the moment, I think AoS have the coolest miniatures. I like AoS miniatures. But the goody goody gundam faction are pretty cool too, so there’s that.
Honestly, at this point, the lore of the universe - which is so vast and so much of a deep dark abyss that it might take a lifetime to read up everything - is more interesting than the games. ...Except a game where I can play as an Imperial Guardsman. That's the main reason I am so psyched for Darktide. Finally... a lasgun.
What if it goes something like this: The Emperor genuinely is a freak of nature psyker/perpetual, but the shaman's also did recognise what the future held with the warp and Chaos. The managed to seal a deal with Malice who's goal is to oppose the chaos gods. They used a ritual to bring about Malice into the Emperor's body, where both reside. It may sound like a bad idea until you realise how Malice would, through ruthlessness, maintain a status quo and survivable species in the face of the chaos god's assault. This might also be why the chaos god's were SO upset whenthe emperor entered the warp to speak with them. The chaos god's would never be intereste din what a man had to say, but Malice might have scared them into action. Now Malice/emperor sits on the golden throne gaining power as thousands of psychers pour their energy into his being, making him stronger and stronger.
If Perpetuals sprung up as freaks of nature in prehistoric times, why aren't perpetuals born in the current setting? Prehistoric times had maybe millions of people born every century, that could have turned out like that. In 40k, there's billions born every day across thousands of worlds.
OOOOOOH i like! I'm running a game of Wrath and Glory with Malice as the big bad, I'm gonna wind this theory into it. So far, I've revealed that the Ruinous Powers are four faces of a single entity, and that Ynnead is Slaanesh, using Wraithbone to accumulate forces, and that Gork and Mork are Orkish understandings of Khorne and Tzeentch. Malal ALSO being Big E is brilliant.
I sure do love the sound of Luetin's voice. It's so serene, enthralling, and seductive...one would swear he was Slaanesh himself. Trying to coax us into doubting our glorious God-Emperor's divinity. All joking aside though, great vid Luetin. I enjoy these deeply speculative investigations into the lore because most of the community is either swallowed in meme culture or they refuse to acknowledge uncomfortable possibilities as "canon". Short of GW blatantly declaring something canon or not, I'd say anything is possible in the framework of absent information. Malice being the Emperor is a radical and interesting theory that I've never heard of or considered before.
The Emperor's either a Chaos God of Tyranny or the Golden Throne is a mechanism to turn him into one, and the force that seems to guide him is simply his future self. Humans are mirroring what the Eldar did when they accidentally popped Slaanesh into existence, just with mindless oppression instead of mindless debauchery, and all of that with the Emperor at its focus.
How can something be "a Chaos God of Tyranny"? Chaos and Tyranny are mutually exclusive. In my eyes the order of the humans are the last resisting force to the evil of chaos. This is probably the main point of 40k. And it's a true point. Even a corrupt order is better than no order.
@@willhelmi2095 Except Tyranny and Chaos are not mutually exclusive. Order and Chaos are, but Tyranny is simply a cruel and oppressive rule, and all of the Chaos Gods are tyrants of their own domains. What creates Chaos Gods is the volume and intensity of emotions generated by the psychically sensitive, with the cause of those emotions being what defines their final nature; by that logic, if the cause of those emotions is intense worship (and suffering from punishment for not worshiping hard enough) of the Emperor, then the resulting Chaos God should be one of Tyranny/Zealotry/Ideology. The question that raises is would the Emperor himself become the Chaos God, or would the Chaos God simply be based on the Emperor? *Edit:* that said, the Chaos Gods are named that because they're born from the Realm of Chaos, not because they reject order (well, except Malice). Their very existence contradicts chaos, because they have their own internal hierarchies, methodologies, and goals that are constrained by what defines them; Slaanesh isn't going to go on a murder rampage, Nurgle isn't going to host beauty pageants, Khorne isn't going to calm the fuck down and create elaborate schemes, and Tzeentch isn't just going to drop viruses everywhere for the simple sake of spreading disease. In reality this is because Games Workshop needs to sell figures and thus need to make clean definitions between the armies, but from a lore perspective this means it isn't an Order vs. Chaos thing, but a Corrupt Order vs. Corrupt Order thing. Nobody's the good guy in WH40k.
@@blarghmcblarghson1903 Interesting take. Yes, all Chaos Gods are tyrants, but does this mean that every tyrant is on the path to Chaos? Seems to be totally dependent on the character of the tyrant. You could be a tyrant who wants to restore order, is loyal to his people and sees his tyranny more as an emergency (which is absolutely the case in 40k).
@@willhelmi2095 Well, yes, by definition a tyrant is a "cruel and oppressive ruler". If they're just oppressive, they'd be a dictator or autocrat, if they oppressive yet loyal/kind, they're a benevolent dictator. In fact, history's villains are at their cruelest when they believe their actions are for the "greater good", so it's actually worse if the tyrant is justifying their actions. Of course, you'd be right to say that not all _dictators_ are on the path of Chaos, but those labeled as tyrants have already taken the steps toward Chaos. I can see an argument that the Emperor might not have _intended_ to be a tyrant; however the problem is the current state of the Imperium is undoubtedly cruel, all of the people worshiping the Emperor, the psykers dying in battle or being sacrificed to him, are indoctrinated in the Imperial Creed rather than the Imperial Truth. The Emperor may be the most powerful human psyker ever, but it's hard to believe a single mind (or even the collective reincarnation of thousands of minds) can stay true after being force-fed the emotional energy of trillions of raving religious lunatics raised to normalize cruelty and oppression.
I would have thought that Luetin would have touched upon the "Malcaldor creat the Emperor" theory in the "wanderer" section of the video. The theory goes that the Emperor was not born, but created, sometime in the 27th century, by the Sigilites, in an attempt the create the perfect Human. Humanity was just coming out of the Dark Times, and the destruction caused by the Men of Iron - the Sigilites tried to recapture the power of Humanity, not through AI or mechanical means like before, but through biological excellence. Taking all they knew of perpetuals and the various "mutations" of Humanity (future-seeing, great strength, psychic powers, massive intellect etc), they attempted to forge the perfect Human. Malcaldor lead the project, along with other perpetuals, and while they failed time and time again, they learnt from each mistake - information would go on to help create the astarties and others. It was only through the use of an alien device, gathered before the Dark Times, and the consumption of said device, that the Emperor's came to be (and would explain why only one being like this was created). However, much like Frankenstein before him, Malcador was blinded by his hubris- he had created a perfect being, but what perfect man would allow it/himself to be controlled or lead by lesser men? When Malcador beheld his creation, he was crushed, psychically, by the force of this new Creation. The Emperor was a Perfect Being, and he knew it - He saw a Golden path, where all of humanity were on his level, and He would make that future come into being - even if it must be by force. That's why all the perpetals, save Malcador, abandon or plot against the Emperor later on. They see the monster they helped create, and fear what Future He would deem acceptable - it's also why anyone who has seen the Emperor's "true face" are always disturbed by him - because for all his golden aura and "benelevance" the Emperor is as Alien to humanity as humans are to other species - he is an Artifical Being whose humanity was burnt up in his own birth/creation.
@@Echo1Vyr not necessarily- while wh40k books and lore have spoken about Ollie's and the Emperor have had past interactions throughout human history, those "recollections" have been as rememberances by Ollie - it's not impossible that the Emperor could force false memories or give off a feeling of familiarity, especially to Perpetials and various others, to reinforce the idea that He had always been around. What I like about this theory is that it explains why the Emperor did nothing before appearing in the 30th century. It makes more sense (to me) that he didn't exist yet, rather then he was waiting for people to evolve to become more like him. I know there are a few holes in the theory, such as how could the Emperor have defeated the void dragon if he wasn't around, or how does he know so much if he didn't exist yet - what I think fills those gaps is part of Luetins head cannon theory about the last Old One. What if the final ingredient to create the Emperor was the Old One merging, or encompassing the physical form Malcador was creating - if that was true, the actions accredited to the Emperor in the early days could have been done by the same Old One, which makes a little sense - an Old.One would have more knowledge of the universe then even the Golden Age human empire, and sole C'Tan would more likely have been defeated by an Old One then by a powerful human psychic.
@@CountingStars333 Good Point - but truth in the 40K universe is very subjective. There are no flashbacks or paintings that I know of shown by the 40K lore to prove this - only the word of others that they knew the Emperor in the past. It's not impossible that the Emperor has implanted the idea that the perpetual knew Him, so as to create distance and obfuscate his actual creation (it is certainly within his power). There is also the possibility that the Emperor's presence in the Warp is so powerful that he can bend the perception of time around him - like the fact that Slaanesh seemed to exist long before he/she actually came into being. The Emperor might be so powerful that perpetuals perceived that he was indeed with them all along, even when he was born much later.
I always interpreted the Emperor as some kind of psychic vampire who started by consuming the willing shamans to achieve their goal and time and propaganda turned it into a combining. It would explain his ability to consume psychers to live longer and why he waited to take charge until after psychers boomed because he had no external source of power until then.
@@twintrbo92 Yeah and why his “soul” can be distributed among others like the primarchs at all without leaving him as a husk. He’s got plenty to spare.
I prefer the idea that the Emperor was actually engineered by a surviving Old One and that the shamans were killed, by that Old One, and their souls were harvested and used to create the Emperor's soul. This would explain his advanced biology compared to other naturally occurring human perpetuals, who have pretty much regular human bodies. This would fit the grim dark nature of 40K and the theme of history being covered up with propeganda; the shamans willingly coming together and sacrificing themselves for the greater good of humanity makes a more inspiring origin story than a bitter xeno from a dead race made him in a lab and murdered all of humanities early psykers, sucked out their souls, stuck them all into a blender for a while, and then shoved the mixture into his genetically engineered WMD. This would also lend credence to the theory that the Emperor used lesser gods/entities to make the souls of the Primarchs as that would basically be him recreating the process by which he himself was created, just using a different source for their souls.
@@PeachDragon_ I mean orcs get smarter the bigger the population is and their vicinity to it. Along with them literally making physics defying weapons and structures do to them just believing in it so hard. So if they can make rockets explode more just by believing if it's painted yellow, who knows what humanity could do.
@@Kspice9000 i am sorry to disappoint but that's not how this works. Orks have the specific ability of belief, humans Don't, humans can't make a mountain of scrap into a tank by just believing that it works, orks can. Humans affect the warp with their faith, not real space like the orks
I always liked the idea most that the emperor used to be just a normal military leader who got hyped and then augmented into Messiah and God status by his troops and religious fanatics throughout history. This fallacy of turning a mere man into a God through fanaticism speaks to me more than him being basically god-like from the beginning.
@@benjaminghazi787 he is a normal guy who gained extraordinary psychic powers over the millennia. But I always assumed he was a normal man at the start who slowly became stronger and fed off the warp to live forever.
Personally, I enjoy the idea of the Emperor being a product of a lone Old One perhaps pouring its essence (and even some latent consciousness or 'intent') into one immensely powerful being, in recognizing the unavoidable downfall of the Eldar in their close relation to the Warp amidst its rising turbulence. All as a sort of 'final gamble' to create one being to take the reins of a race with a latent psychic potential; a being with an ingrained NEED to neutralize chaos and foster order. But like the Eldar, this creation wasn't perfect. I believe the Emperor is an ally to humanity in essence, but one with a very nihilistic view of human nature, while also seeing promise in human potential. The way he sees the future seems to imply that he can glimpse potential outcomes, like short 'clips' in time, but not the direct path from point A to B, leading him in a position where all he can do is play the cards he has the best way he knows, to get Humanity where he wants it to be at. The Horus Heresy could well have been a play to create his own 'bad guys' to defeat and create a mythology around, perhaps expecting that the Imperial Truth wouldn't be sufficient to cut human reliance on the Warp and religion in the long run; he would instead create a legend for posterity, a cautionary tale about the dangers of religion and how selfish ambition nearly led the whole human race into dark, chaotic oblivion. It might certainly strike a chord more so, than an imperial crier or teacher simply saying, "Religion is bad". A great gamble to be sure, an even greater atrocity, where a few miscalculations and outside influences led Malcador and the EoM to come up just short of success. Edit: Though this is also more of a stray thought, but it could be that Malcador and the EoM were aware of the rising psychic ability between each generation of humans, and didn't trust other human civilizations - no matter how prosperous they might seem - to have sufficient knowledge to handle that evolution without collapsing or functioning as a catalyst for Chaos/Warp influence.
My Theory: The Emperor was just another perpetual that was born naturally, and was a gifted psyker. Think Malcador level of strength. It wasn't until he went to Molech that he became the Emperor that we see in the lore. There he made some kind of deal with Chaos in exchange for a massive power boost. But then he went back on his end of the deal which pissed off the Chaos gods. Also, I think the Emperor planned the Horus Heresy, but it got out of hand. I think he intended for Horus, Mortarion, Fulgrim and Angron (the four Primarchs at Isstvan III) to turn. The plan was for them to then be crushed by seven Loyalist legions at Isstvan V. This would remove one of the most broken Primarchs, Angron, as well Horus, who stands the greatest chance at challenging the Emperor for rulership of Mankind. It would also cement the loyalty of the remaining primarchs. Remember that the Emperor already had to delete two Primarchs before any of this happened. It was clear at that point that the Primarchs were a problem, and some of the remaining Primarchs (e.g. Angron, Curze) were pretty messed up. Proactive steps had to be taken to keep them under control. But things went badly wrong. There were two things that the Emperor didn't anticipate. First, that Magnus would go to Terra and do absolutely nothing wrong, thus destroying the Webway project. Second, that four of the seven legions sent to Isstvan were actually on Horus's side. Instead of wiping out a few threatening primarchs and solidifying the loyalty of the rest, he ended up with three loyalist legions effectively destroyed, nine legions turned traitor, and the Webway project ruined, all while being stuck on the golden throne holding a hell portal in the Imperial Dungeons closed, meaning that he couldn't fight. All that combined destroyed his grand plan, and he's been pretty much improvising ever since.
pretty much what im thinking. considering his relationship with the other perpetuals being explained in the books. his psychic abilities allowed him to unlock some cheat codes.
This is the conclusion I came to myself after reading the Horus Heresy books. Emp Daddy played with his hand so close to his chest because he is totally convinced of his own ability to puppeteer the events and this turned on him hard. I can't help but wonder how the future of Magnus would've been if only Empz would've acknowledged him when he burst through the webway. Like, I get it, he ruined your toys but you didn't need to sic the dogs on him.
I think you are on to something here! This is the most convincing theory I have seen, because I am sure it is stated in The Vengeful Spirit that the Emperor arrived at Molech in a space craft but then left without the need for it. So this would suggest he got a massive power boost on this planet and gained the ability to travel the galaxy without the need for a ship, which could also explain all the other abilities he now has.
The problem with 40k is too many cooks spoil the soup. To give you an example in DC comics, Jack Kirby created the New Gods fairly early on in his career. It was a genius move with these beings that were the living concepts of good, evil, heroism, selfishness and all that other stuff. They existed outside the universe and had all kinds of major plot points about them. Then a new writer comes along and he is nowhere near as talented as Jack, but he puts pen to paper and writes a story where Darkseid is just another alien bad guy living on just another planet somewhere inside the universe. You’ve got good writers with tons of imagination…and then you get guys who are just there to make money for themselves and the brand. I know it’s not as interesting as maybe everything tying together in the end, but that’s what it’s like with these long running series. However, all hope is not lost. There are still plenty of good writers out there, and perhaps someone who loves the story and knows the lore will walk into the 40k offices one day and go. “Okay guys, here’s how we fix this shit, fill in all the plot holes, and have 40k go out with a bang…you know, before we reset everything because we still want to make money.”
I like the idea of the Golden Throne being something from the Golden Age, because it feeds into My Head Canon that the Emperor is himself a Psychic Construct/Weapon from the humanity's past. Correct me if I'm Wrong, but the way I understand it is the Eldar Gods were created by the Old Ones and Eldar are unable to reproduce the technology required to even Repair the damaged parts of Webway, which is a sort of Psychic, require a certain level of psychic prowess to work with. The Emperor was able to create a whole new section of the webway, something the Eldar have not been able to do, or at least haven't been able to do within the last couple millennia. It wouldn't surprise me if Golden Age Humanity was able to outdo the Eldar in this aspect. being able to construct their own "Deity" like the Old One's did. This would explain, IMO, why the Emp. is so physically powerful, why he's so fervent in the doctrine of the "Imperial Truth", why he can take pieces of himself and put them in others. These aspects, in there respective forms, are all present in the other "deities" of 40K and in regards to the Eldar gods, they are constructs. And if Emps. is a Psychic construct/weapon for humanity in the same way that say Kane is to the Eldar, many of his actions can be understood and explained in this frame, and also why he's humble enough to state that it will be baseline humanity that inherit the galaxy, because he knows and states constantly that he is no god, he no more man that any other, in fact he was MADE by them. (Maybe as a response to the Men of Iron/ fall of the STCs, a being that is human who retains the knowledge and power to unite and keep Humanity going; a tool)
@@TitusCastiglione1503 It is well known that the Emperor can dominate the minds of others. Every "memory" of the ancient past, isn't his own memories. But rather the memories of the minds he dominated through the warp, where time is non-fluid.
A few comments about the shaman theory: 1. If we follow the history of man, neolithic man came from Africa and then migrated over the world - if this event was pre-migration then the distances are not as meaningful. As at this time, humanity is so small that the distances are manageable by walking (perhaps over a long period of time, but given that this meeting lasted for centuries... not as big a burden.) 2. If we assume they are all at the same place and died at the same time - via poison, well they just "drink the kool aid" in a cult like finale. 3. The power of that huge physic link between them, and their souls combining into Big E - the fact he is a perpetual is easily a outcome. The shamans themselves were subject to such reincarnation. 4. The idea of the throne being powered via all those psychers is well in line with this story of his creation - it is to keep the system he is made of going. It is the actions of the first creation repeating.
Malice is a warp entity that gains its strength from the great game between the other chaos gods. He only has a very small following in the material plane. But I think it is important to note here that he is actively benefiting from the other chaos gods fighting. He doesn't need a strong presence in reality. And if all the chaos gods are truly gods that would make Malice stronger then them and higher on the hierarchy. This is a single point that really needs to be expanded on. The other chaos gods fuel him. Not the other way around. He is most likely the creator of the great game.
My question is what of the Starchild and what about the sensei does that factor into what the emperor actually is who we might be what is motives might be? Are the sensei perpetuals? Is the Starchild the ultimate culmination of the perpetuals of being even more powerful than a perpetual? Perhaps the sensei are the perpetuals in another form? Is the Starchild just a manifestation of power say like the chaos gods are a manifestation of certain aspects of humanities darker aspects. Could not the emperor be a god but not a god of benevolence and Goodwill but perhaps a god as the chaos gods are god of wrath or death or vengeance and then that would supplement your views that he could be the chaos God of malice that seems likely to me but he could also be considered a virtue in that he seems like a god of knowledge of curiosity there are Greek and Roman mythologies surrounding individuals in mythology that sought knowledge and wisdom that was forbidden and led to their downfall or demise the tragedy of knowing something you shouldn't know
@@Cursed0rDamned from my reading, the sensai can be perpetuals, but they're not always. The Starchild storyline seems to have shifted to it being related to the Tyranids, in the literature genestealer cultists refer to the Star children or the birth of a Star Child, so perhaps its in reference to thier 'god' or gestalt consciousness. If I'm being totally honest the sensai haven't been mentioned in over a decade, thier essence is used as ammunition so perhaps they've all been wiped out. Whereas the Star Child lore has been a plot point in the last couple of years so perhaps thats an indication.
If anyone has seen an old sci-fi called Lexx, the Devine Shadow secretly had mankind on the dinner plate. 20 thousand planets. He had been corrupted by the insectiod essence Once for the Lexx ship then for the GigaShadow. This vid has got me thinking after the Malice mention
Fabius Bile, Lieutenant Commander of the Emperor's Children: "Unlike you, whelp, I once walked the same ground as your idol. I breathed the same air as him. And I tell you this, without lie or artifice. He never wanted to become what you have made him! He did not wish to be your god-thing. He abhorred such ideals! The slavery of your crippled, blind Imperium would sicken him, if he had eyes to see it."
My theory is that the age of the Emperor is a lie; in truth, he is, or was, a preserved specimen of the Men of Gold, who was held in the vaults of the Sigilites, and it was Malcador who decided to unleash the being, thinking it the best - or only - way of saving humanity.
This, so many people skip over the Men of Gold and go to the Men of Iron, but the Men of Gold was ment to be the ultimate of humanity, the Big E could have been a Man of Gold that hid/ or was imprisoned till he was needed
@@seekingabsolution1907 it’s deliberately vague. During the dark age of technology there were three groups of note, the men of stone (probably robots), the men of iron (probably AI) and the men of gold (probably ubermensch). Note that the parentheses are purely my speculation. All know is the men of iron went to war with the rest of mankind and caused the whole civilization to collapse. Consequently people infer that that was basically a Skynet machine rebellion. The details of what these factions were and did are deliberately fuzzy to provoke thought and debate
Theres an interesting idea in that whole thing with horus and malcador. Malcador is a lot like the wandering advisor in warhammer total war, who is usually somewhat chaos inclined. Horus talks of great attrocities, this may be the sacrifices used to create the emperor and maybe even other perpetuals. Is the golden throne a machine to create perpetuals? When you create enough perpetuals, could you not likewise sacrifice them to create beings like the emperor, and then what is the next level? Had mankind not just made the webway and the astronomicon but also a sort of god machine. (I suspect the whole slaneesh thing wasnt just the sheer psychic will of the eldar but that coupled with a ritual, this may mirror what the emperor was doing. He did afterall live through the birth of slaneesh right before revealing himself) Mayhaps macador lived to see the emperor created
I’ve always enjoyed the idea that the Emperor was true to his intentions in the beginning. That he wasn’t a God, and detested the idea of religion. But as we know, things didn’t go according to plan. And now, 10,000 years after he was entombed on the Golden Throne of Terra, he’s becoming the very thing he swore to destroy. A god. A figurehead for blind religious zealots. Assuming that’s what’s happening, I’m left with a different question. WAS he being truthful? Did he really “become a god” in a sort of twisted fate and mistake? Or was this his plan all along?
I am 100% with you on this. The REAL heresy was committed by those that made him a god. However, apparently prayer to him somehow does have some kind of warp effect and maybe having an Emperor cult was the only/easiest route to get the warp effect and protect the galaxy (or at least delay the forces of chaos).
*MUCHO TEXTO INBOUND* The problem is that it’s implied in the lore (to my memory) he inspired or took on the guise of various religious figures in the early days of Earth (Atleast in WH40k). It’s implied he inspired or took the guise of Moses, Christ, and/Buddha during his time guiding humanity. Plus it makes sense, because for all the faults and zealots many of the main religions had, they taught values not just of order but ideals that run contra to the Chaos Gods. Temperance, compassion, honesty, etc. Plus, humans are not purely materialistic creatures, there is a sense of yearning for a higher purpose. A need for such things. If the Emperor was the original inspiration or founder of many of not all mankind’s major religions…he likely knew this. Yet he saw this issue with the zealotry, but instead of sorting them out, I think he completely overcorrected. He went the opposite direction and in doing so also tried creating a system that was based on a bigger lie. As Jaghatai noted, the Imperial Truth is an outright lie. The supernatural in the 40k universe is an objective fact. The Emperor’s Great Crusade to install an atheistic, “rational” worldview killed even more people than the religious zealots before him. Not only that but it was ultimately his and his “perfect” Imperium’s downfall. The Emperor wanted to play god and use his godly powers to shape Mankind’s future. He also borrowed heavily the concepts and designs from past religions, that he claimed have despised. This is not to say the Emperor Of Mankind is stupid, incompetent, and/or weak. Quite the opposite, otherwise the Imperium never would’ve been built. Rather, in a sense of irony, like many of the most intelligent and accomplished of mankind…they can become victims to their ego. Thinking they have everything figured out, when in reality, they don’t. Thus when they make a mistake, it strikes that much harder. Which is no doubt why so many turned traitor. Personally? I think the Emperor would’ve been better of embracing the idea that he was a guardian god of mankind. Instead of destroying and denouncing religion, creating a new one and refining it’s tenets. Also, actually warning people about The Warp and the dark powers, instead of denying their existence. I get the idea of why he did it, but it seems to have backfired spectacularly. Plus, if people don’t know what a thing is, how can they properly defend against it? *tl;dr* I think the Emperor and Imperium would‘be been if the Emperor just accepted the role of a god. That, or not deny the existence of the supernatural.
@@cosmictreason2242 shit didn’t go according to plan for him we know as much. But the question is long term, was he hoping to eventually become a god? Or is this all against his wishes like the imperial truth would have you believe?
Okay so it always baffled me that on many occasions it has been indicated that emperor never truly cared for his sons and treated them merely as his tools. So why would he ever let Horus injur him like that? The theory that the emperor may have planned Horus heresy seems pretty likely. On the other hand I don't think it was his plan to be benched on the golden throne for so long. Now bear with me, Chaos needs souls and emotions to fuel the Ruinous Powers. They wouldn't want the Horus or Emperor to win. This perpetual state of war is actually more beneficial to the dark gods. Maybe when the emperor made a pact on Molech he was played when he thought he was playing chaos. Maybe that is why traitors made so little progress in 10k years.
Except the Chaos gods don't really think like that. They aren't capable of questioning or altering their own goals, even though fulfilling those goals would destroy them in the end. They are very intelligent, but they are not fully sentient as they are completely incapable of introspection.
@@screamingcactus1753 i guess that could make sense, they are chaos incarnate after-all i guess, but how did you come to that conclusion? what makes something sentient as opposed to intelligent? they are aware of themselves, they have their own specific palaces and realms in which they reside. they are physically there in the warp. for example, khorn was attacked by skarbrand, and slaanesh physically awaits those that can get through its 6 circles of seduction etc. they decide who they raise to be their daemon princes so clearly they are capable of deciding who can serve them to the greatest extent. that would imply to me that they are capable of thought and introspection and any other complex thoughts and even emotions.
@@screamingcactus1753 I cannot think how beings like Tzeentch would be able to manipulate and prepare these elaborate plans spanning sometimes thousands of years if they weren't capable of such things. We do not really know what their goals are except that they are not as interested in physical plane as they are in their machinations in the warp. In that regard physical realm is more like a source of resources for their constant wars in the warp. Well at least that is my head cannon I wanted to share. Half of the WH40k lore doesn't make sense anyway and contradicts itself and it's old. I do not think that at the time of first conceptualization of this part of lore anyone at GW was thinking about it any more than this is grimdark imperium with God emperor and these are space devils with their satanic cults now lets sell some mini figures. It's still an open book that will be retconned a lot.
"Emperor is Malice" might make some amount of sense if you theorize that Malice represented Chaos in its most basic and self-destructing sense, and to that end, the goal of Malice was entropy through total annihilation of the Warp. Malice realized that this was, more or less, impossible given its current state and essentially remade itself into Emperor to then be reborn as the God of Order, now possessing the means to snuff the warp. The big shtick about Malice was that, the more cultists it had, the weaker it would become due to its nihilistic nature. But posing as Emperor could, technically, dance around that: while, also, fucking with Malice in the process given that Malice is a warp being and, thus, collective belief of humanity would affect it: aka, just as people saw the Emperor as different things, so did the Emperor felt as many things, which probably isn't nice. Hell, might even assume that Malcador was one of the few, true cultists of Malice, explaining his powers. Hell, if you want to push it even further, that explains why Malcador wanted Horus to not trust him (so that Heresy would play out) and would explain why Emperor and Malcador are obsessed with control and go full rage mode when someone discovers, even if a bit, just what they really were (effects of Malice trying to become Order) I mean, I don't think that this will be the case, but GW could do something historic if that will end up being the case and humans will just become the bad guys once Emperor is reborn as God of Order.
Chaos gods manifesting in physical form as such is not really something I've ever come across so the Emperor *literally* being malice is a bit of a long shot. He could well be a *Daemon prince of Malice* (the most powerful daemon in the warp possibly) and that would in fact make a *lot* of sense. It explains the need for Mankind to dominate the galaxy, because Mankind is the chosen tool of the Emperor's, a psychically capable race that could have enough temperance and endurance to literally starve the chaos gods of emotional energy, by spreading across the galaxy and annihilating all other warp-sensitive races. It would also make sense of the Burning Legion and the Saints as daemons of Malal. It also would explain why the Emperor did NOT want to be worshipped as a God as it would feed emotions of faith into the warp that would congeal into Malal's daemons, possibly somehow entrapping Malal into the warp or making him dependent on humanity's faith, increasingly so over time, subverting Malal's plan to use humanity as his chosen instrument for the destruction of the other chaos gods (that is, assuming Malal didn't want to become Order). And although the Chaos gods succeeded in derailing Malice's designs, they didn't totally defeat them and through a great twist of irony humanity's faith has sent mankind and Malice down a path of symbiotic evolution, where Malal has to some degree changed from simply being the anti-Chaos god into an "Order God". I quite like this idea of humanity this forgotten toy or failed experiment that the Old Ones simply abandoned after having far greater initial success for their own goals with the Eldar, and Malice being the underdog of Chaos selecting humanity, the underdog of the 40k verse, as his chosen instrument.
@@dionbridger5944 That was a beautiful response, damn! I mean, the whole "Malal will become dependent on humanity's faith" is actually a really good counterargument. As a thought, Malcador still could've been worshipper of Malal, and he could've been the one to approach Emperor with the idea; if we are going along with that idea. Also, the "humans are forgotten, poorly made toys of Old Ones" sounds like something that you would expect from warhammer universe.
Only problem with that was the emperor literally fed the warp. The expansion of the imperium is what fed more souls and powered the warp more than anything else since the eldar and the fall. The warp would actually be much weaker.
I believe that the emperor allowed himself to become one with Malice while on Molech, and that's why he came back through the portal significantly more powerful than when he entered.
Hmmmm order and *true chaos* do balance each other out but would also make thoughts, fleeing, views, and ideas very conflicting and seem bipolar. Your theory is outlandish but I must admit it makes sense in a few key areas. I like it! Also I love Malice he’s my favorite chaos god!
@@justadogobeingdogo5766 I believe that the emperor chose to stall when battling horus. Because in a panic, Malice may have tried to "eject" the emperor from his own body. In an effort to take over and fight back against Horus. Which the emperor allowed to happen because it was his plan.. I don't think it was his plan the whole time. More like an audible being called once he learned about the future in the outcast dead novel. I think it was what allowed him to enter the warp as a new being, the star child. He also would have known what his custodies would do when they found his body broken by the fight with Horus. The act of placing him back upon the throne would trap malice. the separation would allow him to be the one that received power from the faith and prayers of humanity. While the Imperium feeds the throne daily so that it doesn't fully break down and release a very angry and vengeful god of chaos. Which would shed some real light on the terminus decree as well
11:03 Cyrene is a Perpetual that was “created” by a daemonic ritual performed by Erebus. So I see Perpetuals as a classification, not as a common heritage. Any human psychically powerful enough to reincarnate itself is a Perpetual. This can be achieved by literally any means. For example, a human cursed to relive the same fatal mistake that caused their first death (maybe by Tzeentch trickery or some other outside force) is a Perpetual just as Vulkan is by sheer psychic will.
I know I’m in the minority but I have always chosen to look at the Emperor in an idealistic light. I think he’s was simply the most powerful perpetual who is just trying to ensure the continuation of the human race. I don’t know why but I just can’t imagine him having seen all of the suffering like the Horus Heresy and be apathetic. My bet has always been he just seems detached due to him being so very old, while everyone finds him so disturbing because of his sheer astronomical psychic ability. Then again, I also subscribe to the idea that one’s fate is not set in stone, so I guess me and Luetin might not agree on much.
He tries very hard to talk a priest of the old faith into accepting, that there is no such thing as a god. Only to reveal himself to him which of course has the opposite effect. 10 foot golden halo boi tends to do that. The point is he wants to persuade and engage wirh the Priest as a human. If Malice and big E are connected, then maybe they were intended to be one being but were separated by some force. E might have never really been human, but he certainly seems to want to be one and has an interest in preserving humanity.
I don’t think it’s a minoritarian outlook, the emperor has always been kind of a sympathetic figure because he is mortally wounded on the throne, and yet still uses his lingering physic strength to protect humanity from the many threats throughout the galaxy.
I agree. I believe and hope that the emperor is inherently good, and wants what’s best for humanity. Even if the means to the end seem bad at the interim. The emperor protects!
@@Machiavelli2pc Read "Mortis" that is totally confirmed Back in Medieval Earth, he makes some frankly scary choices and uses some knowledge and power that created the lliteral universe, when it should have been destroyed.
Could play into this by having his 40k self manipulate himself(~30k) into creating this reality. This being the "safest" and ultimates best outcome is a good bit of grimdark imo.
On that bit about the old ones tampering, I've always wondered if humans where designed to be the middleground between orcs and Eldar. Since humans seem to have a strong connection to the warp compared to other species, but also seem to have a psy waaaagh effect of their own. Especially when you consider the abilities revealed recently that the sororitas have
This whole idea of shamans is curious. In one Novel Magos Cawl with prototype primaris Primus meet and speak with C'tan shard powering pharos beacon remains. Shard told them he sees Old Ones hand in them as Emperor was theire creation.
@@nickcarroll8565 yeah thats what I mean, but also specifically how sororitas seem to carry that ability even when the warp is sealed off by the necrons black pylons. Which is why I thought calling it a human waaagh was fitting, the grey knights have a similar effect come to think of it.
On a meta level I always find it interesting to look at literary and philosophical parallels within 40k. When it comes to the Emperor and Malchador a favorite of mine is looking at them in the light of Merlin and Arthur.
The Emperor of Man reminds me of the vampires from the Vampire Hunter D books - holding back superior knowledge and technology until they had a prime opportunity to strike (the end of the world) and then, and only then, stepping onto the world stage to take the reigns and direct history.
I freakin LOVE this channel! I had no idea the 40k lore was so awesome and involved. I think I got the bug guys... don't let any miniatures get near me!
I’ve long since considered and accepted that the emperor is actually closer to a collective consciousness that had, for the most part, reached a form of harmony with themselves, but not entirely. The minute aspects of the previous souls either slowly recombined, or never did. The ones the never did ended up expanding as he was on the golden thrown until he had dozens of different selves. Potentially the glue that was holding everything together has withered to differing extents, but never truly able to separate, with both body and soul having been shared for so long that it may not even be able to be identified as a single person, but neither multiple people. Ironically he’s closer to a chaos god now as he’s more of a collection of selves then a singular self.
Maybe the Emperor is a true AI from the Age of Technology, and Malcador was the human (perpetual) that he bonded with. That would explain a great deal: why the Emperor is so powerful and knowledgeable, why anyone who confronts his true face is terrified, why Malcador had an inexplicable influence over him, why the Emperor is committed to mankind despite seemingly not being human himself.
While interesting, this theory has a major flaw. The Emperor is a psyker, which requires a connection to the warp, and I don't know of any AI with such a connection
@@NicholasKratzer There's no reason why an AI couldn't simply grow a custom organic brain capable of generating a soul. In fact, an AI as intelligent as the emperor could even optimize it to generate the most powerful psychic abilities possible.
Based on ADB's description of the Hollow Mountain, in Echoes of Eternity, I determined that the Astronomicon is built into Tianmen Mountain in China. It's about 4-5k miles from Kathmandu, so this helps explain why Sanguinius determined that Corswain was too far away to try and help defend the Delphic Battlements.
I find the Emperor to be an incredibly close parallel to Griffith from Beserk. A man driven entirely by unbreakable ambition, whose greatest strength is his intoxicating allure that seems outright othewordly. They straddle the lines of morality, their ends and methods outright diabolical at times, while at others altruistic in nature. While clearly beyond the reaches of normal men, the emperor's inconsistantcies and murky character end up making him one of the most human characters of 40k.
I always felt Griffith's long term goal was to sacrifice the entire "perfect" civilization that he was protecting and creating. I don't think he had any real altruism. Just pure ambition.
I thought that too. Falconia reminded me of the early imperium : an island of civilisation in a world filled with monsters, an army of savage but superhuman soldiers (thunder warriors/apostles), a desire to unite all humanity, a device that facilitate travel (the world tree/astronomicon), a leader with an unknown agenda, its former allies turning away from him (guts and rickert/the perpetuals), a bird-like imagery, even the chaos gods and god hand, the warp and the astral realm. Maybe we could see in 40k the way berserk will end
I've always thought the Emperor was the peak of humanities efforts to harness the warp during the Dark Age of Technology. With his abilities he could have seen the sheer horror of what lay in wait there and deemed humanities efforts to further their grasp of it to be cataclysmic in nature. On he goes to destabilise the regime, corrupting their men of iron and rebuilding from the ashes with him at the helm, steering humanity away from the immaterium as much as possible. Knowing a clash is inevitable with the chaos gods he builds himself an army. Yes he is said to have been around before then but a psychic nudge to those few who could deny it isn't out of the question and admitting it would show that their only hope is from the age he is striving to avoid replicating. Could be a dumb explanation but who knows.
If he really existed before the end of the daot then it doesn’t make any sense why he didn’t try to unite humanity at an earlier date and get more work done before slaanesh was born
I love your series, and your vast knowledge of this subject. It is phenomenal, and almost frightening. If I might make one small humble request... stray from talking about people who bring you misquotes, or knowledge that isn't so factual and consider it so. You have such a great tenor, and this talk, especially when it comes up repeatedly just brings the episode down for me. I won't pretend to know why you do so, or what it does, or even how frustrated it may make you feel. I speak only from the single view of one listener who truly adores your work and supports you in any way you have allowed. You, singularly you, are a fantastic online personality that provides a level of entertainment about this subject that I feel is unmatched. Never stop!
Wild speculations... The Cathan gave the Necrontir the knowlege of the soulforge. That burned their flesh and fed their souls the Cathan. Now considder the story that The emperor fought a dragon, was unavle to slay it. But imorissoned it on mars. And that this is a cathan chard. So, perhaps the emperor learned of the soulforge technology from that shard. And integrated it into the Golden throne, for some reason. They say its to fuel the Astronomicon, the throne... or bouth? The eldar dont go burning souks as far as I know. So makes sense to me that the chamber where they burn spykers is a machine a kin to the soulforge.
Is't the Emperor plan to draw on the life of thousand of life's each day while sitting on the throne suspiciously similar to what the C'tan were doing to the Necrontyr millions of years before?
@@grolash6219 the words of Iskander Khayon just rang to my ears: Gods are abominations: vampiric entities who draw their nourishment from our existence.
My opinion: I always liked the idea that the Emperor was an Old One, perhaps the very same that initially created humanity and watched over it (Hence why the Emperor knows so much about human history yet was never seen or heard of). Then when the Dark Age happened, the Old One decided he had to do something and took the form of an ultimately powerful human, the Emperor. Malcador could've been a normal human (Or a Perpetual) that the Old One (Now the Emperor) had recruited to help him better understand humanity and to help him make decisions that would seem like they came from a human, and not some million years old alien. Hence why Malcador says that the Emperor wasn't the Emperor until he met Malcador, because it was Malcador that taught him how to rule over humanity the way a human would. So while the Emperor would be making all the final decisions, he would heavily relay on Malcador to guide him so his decisions and actions seemed more ''Human'' and less alien to the masses. Also would explain why Malcador created the Council of Terra - The Old One never intended to lead humanity forever and would slowly give them back control through the Council of Terra. I would assume that where things went awry, was when the Old One had to be put on the Golden Throne, he basically had to sacrifice himself in order to keep humanity alive. Then over time, the Imperial Creed took over the Imperium and an actual God Emperor came to life in the Immaterium, hence why we now have Saints and the Legion of the Damned, which are basically Daemons in their own rights - which we didn't have in WH30K, back when the Emperor ''Still existed''.
@@nixonsprguy3629 I guess they'd fall into the category of demon princes, with Celestine being the top ranking one - Or maybe that'd be Sanguinius (Since hes been venerated for a longer period of time & even has his own Holiday, which would increase the likelihood of a Sanguinius Daemon taking form in the Warp)
The Emperor appears quite ignorant of human history in the last church, stating blatant falsehoods (witch hunts, etc). One could assume that the Emperor is not as old as he claims. Or that the author had just a massive religious hate boner. I'd like the first explanation better since it would prove the author to be somewhat capable but the book was written quite poorly imho so its probably not worldbuilding but an author not bothering to do research.
I always listen before I want to sleep or just rest for a bit. The intro is always making me feel so sleepy and your voice is just comfortable to listen to.
From what I read, he is cautious with them, and they have enough common sense to see that they have bigger problems than Bobby G. But, they still think that _they_ are the Emperor's voice, and certainly not Guilliman.
"Everything is darkest, before the dawn." EoM being a Malice explains a lot o things and put certain events in new light. I would like to hear more about that.
52:25 Let's not forget that the Emperor destroyed most of those very advanced civilizations and stole their technology. Often causing great damage when conquering them. Other civilizations such as Dorn's or Guilimans were more advanced by the time the Emperor found them, than most of the Imperium. So it's a good question what was the Imperium doing actually?
Assuming big e had humanity’s best interests at heart, I’d say he was wiping out tech that would lead to a similar repeat of what happened with the fall of daot humanity.
@@nickcarroll8565 Hm. Interesting POV. Those people lived better than most in the Imperium. Also survived, also hated chaos, and yeah, manufactorums and the like are not nice. But I understand the pov.
I wonder if the golden thrown is basically a "xp-farm" but for warp energy, maybe he is trying to become comparable to chaos gods (maybe the space mariens that appear out of thin air, i think they were called legion of the damned) So basically the chaos god of humans, but the process is not fast enough as servants of the other chaos gods are more efficent than the throne
Their servants aren't as efficient as the Emperor's. It's just that the Chaos gods feed off *everyone's* emotions, they don't need their cultists as much as the Emperor does.
Two things that I've found weird about the Emperor and Malcador being around during the Dark Age of Technology and having some idea the Age of Strife was coming: 1. How did they manage to preserve so little technology? Why not just preserve a fully functioning STC? Why not memorize technologies with what I assume is super human memory that they have? 2. Why not prevent it? Did they even try? If not, was it perhaps opportunism on their part in order to take power?
@@halloweener3754 big e might have thought daot humanity was on the right path. May not have foreseen the fall of men of iron. I also don’t recall if the men of iron fell before the eldar did.
It could be like the Foundation series, where characters, like Seldon/emps find out to late to stop the fall but can mitigate it and better plan for the future
Perhaps they destroyed them or allowed them to be forgotten in anticipation of the heresy. Had chaos wielded DAoT weapons, that would be the end for humanity
This is the most insightful video on the emporor and malcador i have ever seen. It makes horus’ fall seem way more plausible and justified. Great stuff!
I do like the idea of The Emperor being in some ways tied to Malice, maybe unintentionally so. The idea of him being Malice in the flesh isn't that far fetched either - in The Labyrinth, the 11 Sons of Malice do end up summoning something from the warp, with the only real indication as to what it is being the pov marine's belief that it actually is Malice. While the other 4 chaos gods can't be summoned to the materium due to how many souls would have to be sacrificed, Malice is a much weaker entity, and would therefore require much less sacrifice - maybe only those 11 devotees. Like maybe the reason why Malice materialises as a black and white flaming skeleton is because he's in the middle of materialising a fleshy casing and not because that's his regular form Even though is like 99% not the case, it's still fun to think about. Also, Malice gets summoned in the Eye of Terror - what if in order to "revive" the Emperor, the empire would have to go into the Eye of Terror to pull him out of the Warp? Also disguising himself as a superhuman in order to destroy the other chaos gods is definitely something Malice would do
One thing I like about the combined-reincarnation / shaman story is that it provides an additional reason the Emperor won’t let himself die and be reborn: the different souls that make up his own, given the opportunity of his death, might decide “wow, that didn’t go well” and refuse to rejoin and reform him.
I am unreasonably excited for new Leutin material. I wasn't even a 40k fan prior to this channel. Now I can't slate the thirst. Lovely video -- as always, tremendously narrated.
I like the Malice theory as it nicely explains why the Emperor didn't help mankind in the golden age, and why he didn't save some STCs to help humanity grow again after the AI rebelled
That's stupid though. If he favored victory of chaos above mankind he'd have no qualms with using STCs and men of iron to further his ends. Just cuz some MoI can be corrupted by chaos doesnt mean they all are.
It would explain so much. It explains his relationship with the other chaos gods, it explains why humanity is where it is. It explains why even many of the loyalist marines are downright evil.
@@inthefade ‘These planets were hells. For generations we have recruited the strong over the weak, in the belief it makes our warriors better. I do not think this is so. Cruel men make cruel warriors make cruel lords. We need to be better. We need to rise over the need for violence and recognize other human qualities in our recruits. //Guilliman
@@georgerafa5041 Malices main goal being to defeat the other gods though would make it make sense though, as he knows that he also needs to either make all of humanity worship only him to give him power, while wiping out the rest of the sentient races. This is basically what the Imperium is doing, it has goal of wipe out all intelligent life that isn't human, while humanity is taught to worship only the Emperor. I mean ye it probably isn't going to be right, but it would be a cool twist, and honestly does make a bit of sense.
What is a god anyway? Without the Emperor there is no Astronomican. So there will be no warp-travel. Hence without the Emperor there is no Imperium of Man. That's god enough.
You should definitely read God Emperor of Dune. The concept of a long living precient tyrant guiding humanity on a single path to survival is central to it. And the books before might help with the idea that the only path could be something your trapped into, you can’t avoid
If my memory serves, In dune Leto was trying to free humanity from this trap by somehow making humans Who are free from his own ability to see the future... Like by creating a world so harsh and Dumb that those kind of genes would emerge to adapt to it and finally kill him. Is there something similar in 40k?
In "the outcast dead" it seems that emperor staying on a throne forever was expected, it was in the prophecy one of the astropath masters could decipher. And emperor talking to another bearer of prophecy stated that "sometimes the only way to no to lose is not to let your enemy win" or similar. Emperor was aware of how the plan would result in stagnation but accepted it as alternative to Chaos winning. So if its canon ethernal stagnation on the throne was known and part of plan.
@@citizenkhan4696 Right, but they weren’t supposed to be able to go as far as question their loyalty to the emporer. Just question him of if it is the right decision to do something like that and if he says yes they just go along with it no more questions asked.
@@xKinjax you can be considered a renegade or a heretic without serving chaos. Look at Lomentav (can’t remember spelling) in Carrion Throne. He was just organizing underhivers to fight against dark elder creations, but was executed as a heretic.
![40K - THE EMPEROR OF MANKIND A FALSE GOD [2] Warhammer 40,000 Lore/Speculation](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/2GVc1n-iDy4/mqdefault.jpg)
![40K - THE EMPEROR OF MANKIND A FALSE GOD [2] Warhammer 40,000 Lore/Speculation](/img/tr.png)
![40K - THE EMPEROR OF MAN [5] ABANDON HIM IN M41? | WARHAMMER 40,000 Lore/History](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SrniBr3QPqM/mqdefault.jpg)
This could have been Emperor of Man part 5, but I thought better a single stand alone - have some more creative ideas on just what the EMPS is all about, tell me below
Also Malice : ua-cam.com/video/TXwMUjqH7mA/v-deo.html
HERESY
Not a god
Yet
this title smells of heresy
The inquisition is coming for you
You have outdone yourself
We have forgiven you for your “hypothetical” thought in your other videos
But that was the last straw
You
Are
Done
He is a man, the greatest of men, he is everything and more that a human could, would or should become.
You know most of UA-cams videos are subtle about their heresy. Luetin makes sure its right their in the title. Really makes the Inquisitors jobs easier.
leutin is a professional blasphemer
I've fully embraced it myself at this point. The "heresy! Inquisitor, right here!" joke has gotten really, REALLY old at this point. It really does kill the vibe for anyone that's not an Imp Simp.
I swear I did not watch this till the end
@@Jumptownwore Sure.
*there in
Warning! Detecting extreme levels of heresy.
Yeah yeah tell it to the stunties so they can write about it in their diary
Lol
Adeptus Astartes Deployment Approved
@@ShiftJay08 ... suffer not the Heretic, brothers...
Agreed. Termination Authorized.
makes a lot of sense with the legion "thousand sons" being actually "thousand suns" powering the chair, with magnus at the center.
It seems logistically unsound to go through all that time and effort to turn a young boy into a Space marine (and that assuming he doesn’t die in the process) only for him to be quickly used up by the golden throne when the imperium can stick to the method it already uses unless of course space Marines burn out slower then normal humans.
@@thesmilinggun-knight9646 of course they burn slower the more powerful the psyker the more time the throne is powered
@@classvitreehouse3796 do we have any examples of this because as far as I am aware no space marine has ever been feed to the golden throne.
@@thesmilinggun-knight9646 So magnus would have sat in the chair, bolstered by his legion keeping the web way going. By that logic, gray knights could power the emperor in there without killing that many people a day. Why not do it that way? Gray knights needed elsewhere?
@@0datdude0 That is such a waste. A Grey Knight is a focal point of the Emperors power, training, and equipment. Simply feeding their energy, maybe 10 other pycers, would do the same.
My favorite part of 'the master of mankind' is when the Emperor is questioned how he didnt forsee the betrayal. He says that forsight is like seeing an island off the coast and saying that you could get there by boat or swimming or even flying, but you cant see the currents or waves, or the wind, or whether there may be storms, or the islanders attack your ship before you can make it to shore. He says he can see the target, the possible future that he wants, but cannot see how to get there. And if that is true, then he got absolutely rekt.
But it’s interesting because he’ll eventually reach the end he foresaw. I think he’ll be reborn as a true god.
The only problem is that, what if it’s a lie. If he wanted to portray being wrong and down play his ability, to further the mystery and lies he’s already spun
Guy just had a vivid imagination and tricked people into thinking he could see the future lol
@@BigTylt could be. I find the amount the emperor got wrong is downright intentional. Sure maybe it’s obvious to most, but it doesn’t get said enough. At this point the amount, the emperor did incorrectly is intentionally written that way, which means it Hass to prove a point in a narrative, Most things are intentional. sometimes there’s fluff, but even then fluff is usually building character in some capacity. I know we look at things through the lens of the universe, but why did the writers continually write the emperor doing the wrong thing?
@@dontworry3763 The Emperor doesn't want to become a god though.
I always assumed it was a “two birds one stone” thing for the Imperium to feed psykers to the Golden Throne - gets rid of potential daemon-fodder, and keeps the Emperor going. Three birds, if you count keeping the portal shut.
4, since it enables relatively safe warp travel
@@DAAllan82 isn’t that covered by “keeping the emperor alive”? The psykers used by the astronomican aren’t the ones fed to the golden throne - they’re specially selected for the task rather than just “any and all human psykers who aren’t lucky enough to be recruited for something else”.
5, since it gives blood to the blood god and skulls for the skull throne
6 birds since it also gives the custodes an excuse to never leave the house
A limitless amount of birds, since it's clearly part of one of the Great Schemers twisted plots!
This heresy shall be investigated by the inquisition, blessed be he who vowed to saved humanity from all the dangers in the universe. Once again, thank you sir for your dedication to this lore. Your work is outstanding!
You didn't capitalise He. Why don't you step into this corral, did I mention you'll get to see the Golden Throne?
Shall i fix my bayonet ?
Your little inquisition will only bring demise to your dying "empire"
Heresy is answered with an assassins bullet.
Burn the heretics!
*Me, seeing Luetin take one step closer to the Primordial Truth, nodding and grinning*
“Yes, that’s it… Keep going…”
*Jack Nicholson Nodding GIF*
The real Primordial Truth of Warhammer 40K is ultimately being War in Heaven, as it's being the origin of every species and factions including Chaos factions within Warhammer 40K settings
If you bring temporary pockets of order into chaos, it's just more chaos to the status quo of chaos.
All that effort, just to make more intricate offerings to the gods of change.
"Son of Angron" sounds pretty heretical to me. Begone, Chaos filth!
@@maintaint3003 You're wrong, Chaos in Warhammer 40K has origin in Realm of Souls after being fucked beyond recognition after War in Heaven periods, even Necron, T'au to even Leagues of Votann and other dim souls doesn't care about Chaos or anything in Immaterium
Let alone Tyrannids that's just there to consume every being, including any temporal thought-forms of Chaos Pantheon in The Warp
I remember reading the shaman origin in the 4th ed rulebook. I always liked that version because it made the imperium an entirely human story. Having the emperor being a weird alien thing kinda robs the story of it's humanity.
I remember that shaman origin. I remember seeing the original illustration of the emperor in the first Rogue Trader 40k book my dad had. Now a copy goes for $300+ but can still read it online, it’s an old picture for sure.
@Peniley Majorey honestly thats what good writing is
@Peniley Majorey Yeqh, the meme stuff is funny
I even chuckle qt the whole Emperor is a dark age creation
Its been confirmed he wasnt
Erda and other perpetuals like Pius confirm him before the golden age, all the way back to medieval times
@Peniley Majorey How is "the Ork believing the Emperor is still alive was the reason the Emperor is still living." filled with BS to the brim? That's Great! That's hilarious! xD How is it BS though when that's *exactly* how the Warp works though?
@@mikejonesnoreally Hm interesting theory here, if the Orks believe red is more faster, if they believe the emperor is alive, would that make him alive? :D
When I went through the history of Emperor and how he tried to do everything he did, I always had a feeling that ever since he revealed himself, he had to rush. Even though it was taking decades or centuries, I always had a feeling that the Emperor is fighting against time. That's why he had to cut corners and resolve to violence and slaughter. Because he had no time for pleasantries, things had to be done as fast as possible, otherwise it will be too late. Of course I'm talking about galactic scale so it's not a matter of minutes but thousands of years. Which in galactic scales... is basically a matter of seconds. :D
Probably because he felt that time was limited for the galaxy, and it is when you look at the threats, mainly the Tyranids who have wiped out more stronger galaxies in the past. (though i'm just assuming)
@@shcdemolisher Tyranid Invasion, Necron awakening, Ork Empires like at Ullanor, he had a lot of problems to deal with and not a whole lot of time to due so.
he was the only one whose mind could encompass the scale of reality ...and see the cost of failure , always alone no matter how big the crowd and with the fate of his species for the rest of time on his mind forever ....
That would explains a lot.
@Thisis Gettinboring I think that during Age of Technology the Emperor felt like proud father, seeing his humanity standing strong without being held by hand all the time. He only decided to act when absolutely necessary, when it was obvious that humanity wont be able to get themselves out of this one by themselves. There was no great leader or new emerging society to be seen. He had to act openly.
My 2 cents: The Emperor has known all along he would become interred upon the golden throne, the rise of the dark powers, the slow decay of the Imperium and his unwilling ascendency to false godhood through the ecclesiarchy. He's also set in place a master plan to use the warp against itself and to mimic the fall of the Eldar towards a just cause.
The warp manifests every soul's thought and emotion. The Emperor is now worshipped as a god by uncounted billions and has been for some time. The throne keeps him anchored to this life by a very tenuous thread, but alive all the same. Millenia of worship has been coalescing in the warp and his powers sustained by the diligent efforts of the black ships. What if his long term plan all this time was to emulate the birth of Slaanesh with himself as the focus? If, after all hope is lost and the Terminus Decree is enacted, the Emperor's living body is terminated allowing his soul to finally break free of his mortal prison and birth himself in the warp as a new god of man, just as Slaanesh was for the eldar in eons past?
With the powers of a god at his command he could shut the gates of hell and forever deny chaos the material plane, saving humanity from the ruinous powers for all eternity
And the longer it takes for the Terminus Decree to be enacted, the more powerful He is in his new form.
Kunnin.
I mean, Clever, very clever!
Sadly, your theory rests on the belief that the Emperor is not now a God. This is heresy. The purging begins in...
This... actually does make sense
This theory makes sense and is one I personally subscribe to, but even if the Emperor became a legitimate God wouldn't the others just jump him like they always do when one of them grows too powerful
This could also be true without him having benevolent intentions. Making him another tyrant god if he succeeds.
He could also become a god this way without this being his intention at all, it doesn't need to be planned.
I like the theory that the Golden Throne was made to kind of "repair" the Emperor, like a battery. Designed only to be "charged" for a set amount of time and then stopped so that the Emperor could return and lean man forward again...but then they never stopped. So if they ever do, by this theory, he would be filled with so much psychic power who knows what it could possibly do.
Stop Praying For My Emperor He's Become Too Powerful
You know of the radiant worlds in the Eye of Terror? Yeah, just that but on a galactic scale.
I liked the inverse of that theory.
Namely that the Golden Throne was a device capable of taking the nearly-dead Emperor and amplifying his Warp energies for the Astronomican.
Big E is the battery for this ostensibly-heretek device, the wire plugged into a Golden Throne router!
The golden throne was in ORIGNAL fluff a life support system, later when GW wanted to make more novles (of various quality) it became part of the web way.
The ORIGINAL golden path was to make all mankind imune and invisable to the warp.
Sure, but fluff doesn't matter. Remember what GW said:
"Everything is canon, not everything is true."
50:20 Another theory to note is that Malcador the Sigillite exists, and the Emperor - never did! He was a golem, a psychic projection of Malcador. The one sitting on the golden throne IS the Sigillite.
That's interesting
That's dank as fuck, the implications.
Awesome take. I didn't read the source material so I can not attest to the legitimacy, but the alibis are definitely there.
Nice. My favourite theories about the Emperor are always the ones where he never really existed.
To be fair, it was recently confirmed that Malcador is younger than the Emperor and joined the Perpetuals group later tha Erda and Pius
One of the favorite things I’ve seen someone say about 40k lore is “everything is canon, not everything is true”
...or, as the Deff Orky warrior-poet Sunsucka once said, "Everything is cannon, Boom!"
For every truth a daemon tells, he also tells nine lies.
@@maintaint3003 he wrote that in his book ''the art of waaaaggghh'' right??
@@redsampler2017 I think he carves that stuff on bodies, and sometimes boyz cut them out and tarnish them... you could call it a book.
Note about Magnus sitting on the golden throne: at 13:10 you say that possibility was only shown to us by Chaos BUT in The Path of Heaven
***Spoiler warning***
the White Scars find a prototype golden throne facility (Darkglass) containing communications saying only the proposed Primarch could maintain a stable connection.
This is a non-chaos source suggesting Magnus sitting on the Throne was the plan (though he is not named specifically)
Damn, thx
I loved that scene.
Also it needs to be stated more that the golden throne wasn't finished and I somehow doubt the Emperor would be as short sighted as to make Magnus as a really big temporary battery. It would make more sense then that the Emperor was working to perfect the design so that someone (such as Magnus) could sit on the golden throne and use it without burning themselves away.
My own head cannon is that the Golden Throne was completed as you describe but was damaged by Magnus when he was trying to warn the Emperor which has lead to the level of strain the Throne puts on users now. I agree that the Emporer would not have planned for the Throne to burn through Magnus (or himself for that matter)
I wonder if Lorgar could power the Golden throne...
Headcanon but could it be that the shamans actual goal in mass suicide was to create a entity in the warp that was the first and only human God created in the warp and force it to be born in reality? Believing that humanity needed a god like entity capable of combating the terrors both in the warp and in real space.
The emperor for his part, knew what he was but he didn’t want to be the human god. Actively rejecting his true purpose in hopes of achieving the same goal in another way, not as a human made warp god made real but as a man.
Any human worship would create gods. Zeus was probably real once.
And his religion oppresses innocent Human and non-Human minorities, even it's own believers.
Just a theory but consider the idea that psychic power across humanity is neither created nor destroyed much like matter. So when all the ancient psycher/ shaman were in a nice small population on 1 planet, their powers were outrageous being that it was it that all gathered in one point. Then follow the story as it is known. Sensing changes in the warp and problems with reincarnation they gather and combine their already outrageous powers in an attempt to hold it all in one vessel. Perhaps it worked but not perfectly and now psychic energy randomly appears across the galaxy in humans randomly. In that case, the golden throne and imperium itself could be seen as a tool to reclaim those lost psychic energies by bringing them once again back to the emperor to be added back into the collective.
wow, that kinda makes that really suck for him, it means he was defying fate and lost, and that Lorgar won.
@@harrietr.5073 "And his religion oppresses innocent Human and non-Human minorities, even it's own believers."
yeah, it doesn't really even stand out that much
I am a real fan of the suggested lore that the emperor was a techno barbarian warlord in one of his many lives, and that the eagle aquilla was his jolly roger flag in those times.
Not even halfway through this heresy and I already feel the madness taking hold. Truly the Emperor punishes me for my impudence
"You were inadvertently creating a Chaos God of Unbelief and you were becoming it's champion, perhaps even it's avatar." Magnus the Red
Tts?
" Just because something is factually accurate does not mean it isn't also mind numbingly stupid"
The master of mankind
Hey Leutin, I believe this is your finest video ever made. It’s not a crazy deep dive, you show restraint and in that restraint there is elegant storytelling. It’s perfect length with a perfect subject.
As a years long listener I decided to share my opinion with you. You’ve come a long way. Well done.
Agree on the level of detail being exactly right
Oi! I live for that manotinous level of detail most days!
Then again, I'm a jeweler...so I am biased on this subject...
Luetin! If you made a long form video going into extreme detail every day, I'd be there without exception that does not involve me being dead or without internet!
Come on everyone, no matter your favoured level of detail, let's give Papa/Inquisitor Luetin a round of applause. Indefinitely.
"I will shoot the first of you who [stops clapping]!" - my/his/our/every commissar.
Kind of loved the twist in the Cawl book
where he's had this memory of the emperor talking with him, and its actually from one of the people he was merged with but the emperor was addressing him by name knowing that individual would eventually become part of Cawl, even then he couldn't look upon the emperor
"When discussing the throne device, he speaks to it as some culmination of human knowledge, and he somewhat can't take _all_ the praise for its achievement."
It was purchased from Nagash during one of his garage sales.
It is kinda pyramid shaped...
Nagash was weak
@@indrickboreale7381 Without a doubt, but for some reason everyone seems to like his second hand crap :P
@@indrickboreale7381 Didn't he create stuff like the black pyramid? He is weak, but his creations are not
@@indrickboreale7381 "Nagash was weak! We surpassed him!"
Me, after listening to Manfred in Total War 2 for 20 minutes:
Edit: Remember The Emperor sacking the Tower of Babel with his first Warmaster in lost prehistory. They were utilizing that forerunner language to encode the secrets of the material universe. The Emperor wanted to use it, Oll Persson thought it was too dangerous and brought the tower crashing down.
The Emperor is a friend to humanity. At one point Malchador or someone else remarks that the EoM could have totally disgarded the human form for his new race, but said he was something of a sentimentalist, and if he started off from scratch, what would be the point. This can also be seen in the disparity of his treatment of baseline humans and astartes - he respected Men, he used Astartes.
Thats a good point, he always seems to have at-least a slight care for humanity, even if he treats them more like animals than equals. But astartes and even the primarchs were used more like equipment in his armoury than actual living beings
@@zXPeterz14 It's not what I've seen/read. It's more like he has a capacity for the things he has created. For the rest it's more like he's caring more for what they may become, a sort of "for our children" situation. The Emperor is behaving a lot like an Old One. Remember how the Old Ones refused to grant the Necrontyr the secrets to sunscreen, without further elaboration? It was too small for them, is my guess. A LOT of what the Old Ones did is eeringly echoed in The Emperor, and it's sort of Tolkienesque. Morgoth+Sauron -> Sauron+Saruman. Silmarils -> One Rings. Beren+Tinuviel -> Aragorn+Arwen. You get the picture.
Conclusion: The Emperor is in actuality an Old One, maybe the last one, and hellbent on revenge. His compassion for humanity is no more than that of an admiration of something someone else has created, and his love for his creations is because it's what drives the Old Ones to create living things, like daughters embracing their dolls.
@@gandalf8216 Very interesting theory.
@@gandalf8216 "sunscreen" lol
Exactly. I don't think the emperor is a "false" god. I don't think he's a god at all. He didn't want to be worshipped and forbid it originally. I didn't know what was going to happen with him being "dead" but now it seems kind of clear. With everyone worshipping him, and him absorbing millions of psykers, he is about to become a being capable of challenging the chaos gods to save humanity once and for all.
I always liked the concept of the Emperor being a "Weapon of last resort" made by Dark Age of Technology humans. I.e.: He's a bio-engineered contingency plan in the event of humanity's downfall.
This would explain why he kinda does not show up until the final hour. He was not 'born' until things got bad. His memories and the shaman story either a lie or a fabrication. His mission would be to serve humanity at all costs, an almost AI level of thinking that he takes up explaining the coldness he shows everyone. He's not a man nor a god, he's a weapon.
‘He’s’ an STC
@@patrickbyrne5070 STC?
I agree he is a weapon made by man kind in the golden age or the dark age. I have been attacked on this on a few other channels. Not a STC, a weapon that is a man.
@@wanderingwonder111 sweaty toed commando
@@wanderingwonder111 no I’m kidding. Search STC 40k lore on UA-cam you’ll get an idea where I’m coming from. This guy Luetin has a good vid on it. It’s all dumb af but it’s kinda fun and basically I’m proposing that the universe was kinda run by the AI still as man said- but in a weird weird way. Like you feel bad for the simulation type isht
I’ve always imagined him as being one of those fabled, mythic Sumerian kings who were reported to living thousands of years-dude couldn’t keep up the façade so he peace’d out leaving them to collapse.
that's how long people used to live (not necessarily that king though). Our lives were being extended as God was residing with us, at which point He set our lives to roughly 120 years, which is entirely reasonable given proper health and not eating a processed garbage diet. Neanderthals are actually the skeletons of these ancient people; bone development continues and leads to a bigger brow, whereas the rest of the body is indistinguishable. Even scripture says these older people look someone strange compared to a younger person; there are young humans who were able to meet some of the last remaining long lifespan people before they died.
@@AR15andGODGo take your meds bro 😂
@@AR15andGODwe're not talking about Christianity
@@AR15andGODbro that’s a wildest take on Neanderthals I’ve ever seen. By this theory, why are they genetically distinct and why is a prominent brow seen in all other great apes like gorillas?
@@thesincereone2886it’s science we have these things called telomeres and at birth we are supposed to live 120 yrs but the more we eat bad foods and put other unhealthy things in our bodies it shortens our telomeres length which shortens our lifespan as well lol he doesn’t need any medicine that’s just science do some research on it it’s really interesting
Well half of us are only getting into 40k because of your amazing videos.
I was sick for 2 weeks and had never really touched 40k, I only knew of it’s existence.
I couldn’t do anything but play your videos while i suffered in bed. Not only did your videos ease my suffering, they made me into a hardcore 40k lore master.
A universe I hadn’t even known anything about only 2 months ago.
I was always fond of the idea of the Emperor just being a human. An exceptionally aberrant human certainly, but still a human. It could also be that the reason why people are unnerved by his true face is that he's just hideously deformed behind the image he projects. If he was the result of extreme natural mutation, he probably wouldn't be beautiful on top of everything else. Ultimately, I prefer the idea that the Emperor ultimately meant well. A deeply flawed person who dedicated himself to his species and ultimately paved the road to literal hell with his good intentions. It really emphasizes the tragedy of the Imperium if it was founded in good faith and spiraled horribly out of control, instead of being an intentionally doomed project from the start.
I always liked this theory best as well. A very uptight arrogant man with good intentions and the patience of a toddler. In the M41 I do think he's become a God though. Over 10000 years of constant worship has elevated him. Same kind of way Slaanesh appeared
I always found his claim of being "just a man" entirely laughable. He's immortal. To be human is to die. He ain't human. All these so-called perpetuals are just daemons - only thing that makes sense to me.
@@jackclark4598 Just about nothing in 40k makes inherent since though
ya he's just the highlander who survived literally everything thrown at him but his downfall was only brought by his own hand
@@jackclark4598 except John Grammaticus, his name is just too stupid to be a daemon
That title deserves a visit from the Inquisition!
Such heresy cannot continue!
I like the flavour of this heresy.
A very minor thing I noticed in the Malice / Emperor connection.... the skull iconography. Malice's symbol is a skull stylized to be white/black much like Yin and Yang. And the symbol of the skull is prominent on almost everything the Imperium touches. Who knows if that leads credence to the theory, and whether or not that was intentional on Luetin's part, but it stood out to me very clearly during that segment of the video.
One thing that always made me think the emp is just acting, the way he forces people to see him as human. It always describes him as this giant golden being impossible to even look at, and yet then the next thought forced into their minds is he is “unquestionably human”, even though there is no reason to think that. The only reason anyone ever thinks he is a real human is because he forces them.
Emperor is Malal
That supports the Emperor is Malice theory imho.
I always viewed it as the emperor telling them subtlely
"I am human, my astartes are human, my custodes are human...you too are human."
Essentially saying that all humans can and should aspire to be as powerful as gods. After all the emperor was born from human souls.
Or our lore is intentionally vague and not entirely accurate about the origins of the imperium and his appearance was highly dramatized over the millenia.
Also I think the thought that he was actually a human is much better
@@demonslayereren3970 😢😂❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤😂😢eeew😢😂
I really like the connection mad between E and Malice. Whether Malice is literally the same being or if they're just connected in some way is really interesting. It adds a little more spice to his potential dealings with the chaos gods too.
To me this all sounds like a consequence of having a bunch of different writers/authors with their different views and opinions of 40K not coordinating very well. This is mostly apparent in the Horus Heresy book series, where the same characters will have vastly different personalities depending on the author that happens to be writing the novel in question. I also cant help but to consider the potential motives of certain authors, as some like to portray Chaos or the Imperium in a positive or negative light based on their own personal opinions in regards to morality or any other number of things.
Breaking the fourth wall is not the point of this speculation. The point is to use said different motives, different styles and create a cohesive picture out of them. Most of the novels are written in the point of view of someone which is a useful tool in building the narrative. My 6 year old son made the same point as you, now do better.
@@castor3020 the fuck
@@castor3020 Well, that's a very intelligent 6 year old you have.
@@castor3020 "My 6 year old son made the same point as you, now do better." For someone who just made such an illogical implication.. You know what, never mind. I'd have a more productive time reactivating my Twitter.
For any future readers, DaBestEmporer is doing a thing called "speculation." Same as Leutin. His speculation, however, just happens to sit on the other side of that fourth wall. Maybe speculating the implications of authors and how they effect the portrayal of character motivations and agendas isn't what you want to do, but the conclusions drawn from widening the scope of consideration are no less valid.
If I start spending twice as much every month on gasoline, and you wished to study and speculate on what caused this change in my life, you may have a hard time finding a valid conclusion if you arbitrarily limit your scope to excluding the fact that "gas prices doubled" because it exists "outside the scope of my own motives."
The people who are writing the story are every bit as much involved in the hows and whys of characters and who are they are at different points in time as the story events themselves. And sometimes, you may find understanding of a character's motives by understanding the author's motives. Not that it's mandatory: It isn't. But it isn't harmful, either. You can ignore this train of thought if it interferes with your immersion, but pretending this train of thought is stupid or illogical is just backwards. No, you're just extremely easily offended and tend to portray anger as "righteousness." In otherwords, you'd fit right in with the Imperium.
I agree 100%. This was a well known problem with all of the old Star Trek Series. They had some episodes that were phantastically well written and imagined SCiFi Moral and Ethical drama and they had utter garbage Episodes that should have never been considered. Basically, if you binge watch the whole Run you get a horrendously bad impression of some of the shows vs. what you woudl experience if someone who had done so before made you a watch list that excludes all the stupidity and inconsistency. In multi writer settings it IS necessary to filter.....
I know it was more of fun speculation, but I really like that idea of Malice and the Emperor being connected. Not exactly being the same entity, but being connected in more passive ways, like ignoring each other as they pass by in the warp or perhaps Malice telling his followers to do something that helps out the Emperor in some way, or vice versa. Almost like the Eldar death god in a way, helping out the Emperor in some way could help empower Malice. Both might be Chaos and Order in their most extreme form, so this Yin and Yang might be able to work together to wipe out anything in between before finally turning on one another. A cool plot a few decades down the line might be, once all the other Chaos Gods are out of the way, the galaxy vs. Malice. One last battle as the galaxy burns in one enormous exterminatus-like conflict.
Me too. I think it makes the most sense for the emperor to be his post-malak title, and that he became a sort of reluctant ally or champion to Malal, and that it was Malcador who proposed this, as neither could see any other way to effectively oppose the other chaos gods. (it also kinda explains why 'alcador' so strangely altered his name at some point and why 'Malak' was so signficant from a symbolic perspective, given the literary similarity to the original name of the renegade god.) It could also quite conveniently explain how and why the emperor of mankind seems to so rapidly alternate between sincere benevolence and care for humanity and ruthless tyrannical arrogance and cruelty, as he desperately tries to maintain his sanity and humanity while Malal slowly but irrevocably eats away at the emperor's soul. I could go on speculating but yeah, really cool idea.
@@zacherytobin6434 Could also explain why the Emperor has failed to regenerate. It's not only the astronomicon burning up his soul, but a far darker entity slowly gnawing away at it. Like Oryx and his worm, the Emperor will always be guttering down towards his death, unless he finds some way out of it. Perhaps the reason the Great Crusader needed to be done so quickly was because the Emperor needed to find some way to combat Malal, and he couldn't do that while having two coordinate a galaxy wide war. To be honest, Malal gnawing on his soul would recontextualize or otherwise reframe everything the Emperor did, does, or will ever do. Which is why it will be years until anything like that gets revealed, because that revelation alone shakes the entire setting to its core, speculate but it is fun to speculate and dream. Perhaps if Games Workshop doesn't end up doing that, it would be something of a missed opportunity.
I like this alot.
@@irishspartanstudios I thought the Emperor couldn't regenerate his body because it required a lot of psychic energy and focus to perform, and he can't take his focus off of sealing the webway for even a second.
@@KarpetBurn Yes, what I was saying was a theory.
I still think that one of the most grimdark interpretations of the Emperor is that he was just a man trying his best. With all the faults that come with being human but being so far from it.
I like this too, there’s a line in some book that says the emperor overestimated the Zenos threat and it’s implied that distracted him a bit from chaos. It’s also said somewhere else that the other perpetuals viewed him as impatient, a very human trait
Well, it's almost self evident that he is just a man, he didn't necessarily deny that, he could never have conceived of something as stupid and terrible as the imperium if he was truly above humanity.
Exactly
This is what I believe the most. Used his thousands of years of research and experience to guide the human race out of extinction. Being immortal he understands that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Thats why he's so brutal in his ways. Although now I believe he's about to become a "chaos god" and take the fight to them.
I have a theory that the Emperor is and always was a being of the Warp, humanity’s desire for a savior that has been given enough ‘belief’ to become ‘real’.
King Arthur, Jesus, Moses, and many more have fed him to a point where he was able to become a physical being.
that would be a mind fuck, BUT if he shows up in 8000bc with the first agricultural cites as civilization and religion is evolving, he might end up being all of them
Cool
What if he was actually Tzeentch trolling the entire galaxy?
And Hitler, Napoleon, Julius Caesar, Hong Xiuquan, George Washington, Richard the Lionheart, Muhammed...
Yeah, the Emperor is basically just all of them wrapped into one guy.
@@soccerandtrack10 It's actually deeper than that. Tzeencth might be the only chaos god who understands that sentient beings have to survive in order for them to survive.
When it talks about the Emperor foreseeing the extinction of humanity and stepping in to prevent it, Tzeentch would've have also stepped in to keep the "great game" going.
"I’m honoured, really. I had no idea that the High Lords of Terra had taken such an interest in
my work. Pity that recognition did not come earlier. So like the Imperium to
only acknowledge talent once it goes to the opposition."
- Quavarian, Makov. Heretek.
If the Emperor was interred on the Golden Throne at the culmination of the Heresy in 014.31 that's 10,985 years to the present setting, that 4,012,266 days (accounting for leap years), so that's over 4 BILLION souls he's nommed on so far
Only 4 Billion? Big guy must be on a diet.
I'm personally of the opinion that the Emperor is the spirit of order made incarnate. It's what made him anathema to the chaos entities. This order might not be benevolent, but there's at least some sort of sense that thinghs are as they should be. All that matters is the order of things and all dissidents must be silenced permanently. All will obey.
Lawful neutral can be just as scary as evil. More so in the right circumstances
This is a valid position. Fascism is an excess of order, consolidating power with the government instead of having it distributed
Acab
@@kritsdja mpab
@@kritsdja ywnbaw
I've only played Warhammer 40k - Dawn of War on PC and was never really interested in the tabletop and especially not the Lore, but i stumbled across your videos here on youtube a while ago and you made me buy my first Book of Warhammer 40k and trying to make the first steps into the world of 40k, so thank you.
At the moment, I think AoS have the coolest miniatures.
I like AoS miniatures.
But the goody goody gundam faction are pretty cool too, so there’s that.
Oh no, youre one of us now
Honestly, at this point, the lore of the universe - which is so vast and so much of a deep dark abyss that it might take a lifetime to read up everything - is more interesting than the games.
...Except a game where I can play as an Imperial Guardsman. That's the main reason I am so psyched for Darktide. Finally... a lasgun.
What if it goes something like this: The Emperor genuinely is a freak of nature psyker/perpetual, but the shaman's also did recognise what the future held with the warp and Chaos. The managed to seal a deal with Malice who's goal is to oppose the chaos gods. They used a ritual to bring about Malice into the Emperor's body, where both reside. It may sound like a bad idea until you realise how Malice would, through ruthlessness, maintain a status quo and survivable species in the face of the chaos god's assault. This might also be why the chaos god's were SO upset whenthe emperor entered the warp to speak with them. The chaos god's would never be intereste din what a man had to say, but Malice might have scared them into action. Now Malice/emperor sits on the golden throne gaining power as thousands of psychers pour their energy into his being, making him stronger and stronger.
Nice. First time I’ve seen this theory.
If Perpetuals sprung up as freaks of nature in prehistoric times, why aren't perpetuals born in the current setting? Prehistoric times had maybe millions of people born every century, that could have turned out like that. In 40k, there's billions born every day across thousands of worlds.
@@davidgretzschelcommunicati1630 The salamander dude is a recent perpetual but i dno, they all seem to come from prehistoric times.
Thanks, you just saved me 1h of valuable free time. 😎
OOOOOOH i like!
I'm running a game of Wrath and Glory with Malice as the big bad, I'm gonna wind this theory into it.
So far, I've revealed that the Ruinous Powers are four faces of a single entity, and that Ynnead is Slaanesh, using Wraithbone to accumulate forces, and that Gork and Mork are Orkish understandings of Khorne and Tzeentch.
Malal ALSO being Big E is brilliant.
I sure do love the sound of Luetin's voice. It's so serene, enthralling, and seductive...one would swear he was Slaanesh himself. Trying to coax us into doubting our glorious God-Emperor's divinity. All joking aside though, great vid Luetin. I enjoy these deeply speculative investigations into the lore because most of the community is either swallowed in meme culture or they refuse to acknowledge uncomfortable possibilities as "canon". Short of GW blatantly declaring something canon or not, I'd say anything is possible in the framework of absent information. Malice being the Emperor is a radical and interesting theory that I've never heard of or considered before.
The Emperor's either a Chaos God of Tyranny or the Golden Throne is a mechanism to turn him into one, and the force that seems to guide him is simply his future self. Humans are mirroring what the Eldar did when they accidentally popped Slaanesh into existence, just with mindless oppression instead of mindless debauchery, and all of that with the Emperor at its focus.
How can something be "a Chaos God of Tyranny"? Chaos and Tyranny are mutually exclusive. In my eyes the order of the humans are the last resisting force to the evil of chaos. This is probably the main point of 40k. And it's a true point. Even a corrupt order is better than no order.
@@willhelmi2095 Except Tyranny and Chaos are not mutually exclusive. Order and Chaos are, but Tyranny is simply a cruel and oppressive rule, and all of the Chaos Gods are tyrants of their own domains.
What creates Chaos Gods is the volume and intensity of emotions generated by the psychically sensitive, with the cause of those emotions being what defines their final nature; by that logic, if the cause of those emotions is intense worship (and suffering from punishment for not worshiping hard enough) of the Emperor, then the resulting Chaos God should be one of Tyranny/Zealotry/Ideology. The question that raises is would the Emperor himself become the Chaos God, or would the Chaos God simply be based on the Emperor?
*Edit:* that said, the Chaos Gods are named that because they're born from the Realm of Chaos, not because they reject order (well, except Malice). Their very existence contradicts chaos, because they have their own internal hierarchies, methodologies, and goals that are constrained by what defines them; Slaanesh isn't going to go on a murder rampage, Nurgle isn't going to host beauty pageants, Khorne isn't going to calm the fuck down and create elaborate schemes, and Tzeentch isn't just going to drop viruses everywhere for the simple sake of spreading disease. In reality this is because Games Workshop needs to sell figures and thus need to make clean definitions between the armies, but from a lore perspective this means it isn't an Order vs. Chaos thing, but a Corrupt Order vs. Corrupt Order thing.
Nobody's the good guy in WH40k.
@@blarghmcblarghson1903 Interesting take. Yes, all Chaos Gods are tyrants, but does this mean that every tyrant is on the path to Chaos?
Seems to be totally dependent on the character of the tyrant. You could be a tyrant who wants to restore order, is loyal to his people and sees his tyranny more as an emergency (which is absolutely the case in 40k).
@@willhelmi2095 Well, yes, by definition a tyrant is a "cruel and oppressive ruler". If they're just oppressive, they'd be a dictator or autocrat, if they oppressive yet loyal/kind, they're a benevolent dictator. In fact, history's villains are at their cruelest when they believe their actions are for the "greater good", so it's actually worse if the tyrant is justifying their actions.
Of course, you'd be right to say that not all _dictators_ are on the path of Chaos, but those labeled as tyrants have already taken the steps toward Chaos.
I can see an argument that the Emperor might not have _intended_ to be a tyrant; however the problem is the current state of the Imperium is undoubtedly cruel, all of the people worshiping the Emperor, the psykers dying in battle or being sacrificed to him, are indoctrinated in the Imperial Creed rather than the Imperial Truth. The Emperor may be the most powerful human psyker ever, but it's hard to believe a single mind (or even the collective reincarnation of thousands of minds) can stay true after being force-fed the emotional energy of trillions of raving religious lunatics raised to normalize cruelty and oppression.
That's an interesting hypothesis.
You come up with that?
If not, where did you hear from it?
I would have thought that Luetin would have touched upon the "Malcaldor creat the Emperor" theory in the "wanderer" section of the video.
The theory goes that the Emperor was not born, but created, sometime in the 27th century, by the Sigilites, in an attempt the create the perfect Human. Humanity was just coming out of the Dark Times, and the destruction caused by the Men of Iron - the Sigilites tried to recapture the power of Humanity, not through AI or mechanical means like before, but through biological excellence. Taking all they knew of perpetuals and the various "mutations" of Humanity (future-seeing, great strength, psychic powers, massive intellect etc), they attempted to forge the perfect Human.
Malcaldor lead the project, along with other perpetuals, and while they failed time and time again, they learnt from each mistake - information would go on to help create the astarties and others. It was only through the use of an alien device, gathered before the Dark Times, and the consumption of said device, that the Emperor's came to be (and would explain why only one being like this was created).
However, much like Frankenstein before him, Malcador was blinded by his hubris- he had created a perfect being, but what perfect man would allow it/himself to be controlled or lead by lesser men? When Malcador beheld his creation, he was crushed, psychically, by the force of this new Creation. The Emperor was a Perfect Being, and he knew it - He saw a Golden path, where all of humanity were on his level, and He would make that future come into being - even if it must be by force.
That's why all the perpetals, save Malcador, abandon or plot against the Emperor later on. They see the monster they helped create, and fear what Future He would deem acceptable - it's also why anyone who has seen the Emperor's "true face" are always disturbed by him - because for all his golden aura and "benelevance" the Emperor is as Alien to humanity as humans are to other species - he is an Artifical Being whose humanity was burnt up in his own birth/creation.
Just wow! This is my head cannon now on!
Sounds fun, but the Emperor's relationship with Ollanius kinda dismisses this theory entirely.
@@Echo1Vyr not necessarily- while wh40k books and lore have spoken about Ollie's and the Emperor have had past interactions throughout human history, those "recollections" have been as rememberances by Ollie - it's not impossible that the Emperor could force false memories or give off a feeling of familiarity, especially to Perpetials and various others, to reinforce the idea that He had always been around.
What I like about this theory is that it explains why the Emperor did nothing before appearing in the 30th century. It makes more sense (to me) that he didn't exist yet, rather then he was waiting for people to evolve to become more like him.
I know there are a few holes in the theory, such as how could the Emperor have defeated the void dragon if he wasn't around, or how does he know so much if he didn't exist yet - what I think fills those gaps is part of Luetins head cannon theory about the last Old One. What if the final ingredient to create the Emperor was the Old One merging, or encompassing the physical form Malcador was creating - if that was true, the actions accredited to the Emperor in the early days could have been done by the same Old One, which makes a little sense - an Old.One would have more knowledge of the universe then even the Golden Age human empire, and sole C'Tan would more likely have been defeated by an Old One then by a powerful human psychic.
Nah. Other perpetuals knew him since way back.
@@CountingStars333 Good Point - but truth in the 40K universe is very subjective. There are no flashbacks or paintings that I know of shown by the 40K lore to prove this - only the word of others that they knew the Emperor in the past. It's not impossible that the Emperor has implanted the idea that the perpetual knew Him, so as to create distance and obfuscate his actual creation (it is certainly within his power).
There is also the possibility that the Emperor's presence in the Warp is so powerful that he can bend the perception of time around him - like the fact that Slaanesh seemed to exist long before he/she actually came into being. The Emperor might be so powerful that perpetuals perceived that he was indeed with them all along, even when he was born much later.
I always interpreted the Emperor as some kind of psychic vampire who started by consuming the willing shamans to achieve their goal and time and propaganda turned it into a combining. It would explain his ability to consume psychers to live longer and why he waited to take charge until after psychers boomed because he had no external source of power until then.
It would also explain Sanguineous
Oh fugg
@@twintrbo92 Yeah and why his “soul” can be distributed among others like the primarchs at all without leaving him as a husk. He’s got plenty to spare.
Also, the Emperor being Duncan McCloud is fucking badass.
I prefer the idea that the Emperor was actually engineered by a surviving Old One and that the shamans were killed, by that Old One, and their souls were harvested and used to create the Emperor's soul. This would explain his advanced biology compared to other naturally occurring human perpetuals, who have pretty much regular human bodies. This would fit the grim dark nature of 40K and the theme of history being covered up with propeganda; the shamans willingly coming together and sacrificing themselves for the greater good of humanity makes a more inspiring origin story than a bitter xeno from a dead race made him in a lab and murdered all of humanities early psykers, sucked out their souls, stuck them all into a blender for a while, and then shoved the mixture into his genetically engineered WMD.
This would also lend credence to the theory that the Emperor used lesser gods/entities to make the souls of the Primarchs as that would basically be him recreating the process by which he himself was created, just using a different source for their souls.
I think the collective belief of all of humanity mixed with warp shenanigans literally did turn him into a God
That is pretty much confirmed, he's stronger than nurgle now so I'd be surprised if he wasn't
@@PeachDragon_ I mean orcs get smarter the bigger the population is and their vicinity to it.
Along with them literally making physics defying weapons and structures do to them just believing in it so hard.
So if they can make rockets explode more just by believing if it's painted yellow, who knows what humanity could do.
@@Kspice9000 i am sorry to disappoint but that's not how this works.
Orks have the specific ability of belief, humans Don't, humans can't make a mountain of scrap into a tank by just believing that it works, orks can.
Humans affect the warp with their faith, not real space like the orks
I always liked the idea most that the emperor used to be just a normal military leader who got hyped and then augmented into Messiah and God status by his troops and religious fanatics throughout history. This fallacy of turning a mere man into a God through fanaticism speaks to me more than him being basically god-like from the beginning.
If Captain America became a god.
@@allengilbert7463 Or Napoleon.
Except he has to walk the walk if the chaos gods amped up horus, big e can’t just be a normal guy
@@benjaminghazi787 he is a normal guy who gained extraordinary psychic powers over the millennia. But I always assumed he was a normal man at the start who slowly became stronger and fed off the warp to live forever.
@@casedistortedthe emperor is the final form evolution he’s the complete being, he was never normal from the beginning
Personally, I enjoy the idea of the Emperor being a product of a lone Old One perhaps pouring its essence (and even some latent consciousness or 'intent') into one immensely powerful being, in recognizing the unavoidable downfall of the Eldar in their close relation to the Warp amidst its rising turbulence. All as a sort of 'final gamble' to create one being to take the reins of a race with a latent psychic potential; a being with an ingrained NEED to neutralize chaos and foster order. But like the Eldar, this creation wasn't perfect. I believe the Emperor is an ally to humanity in essence, but one with a very nihilistic view of human nature, while also seeing promise in human potential. The way he sees the future seems to imply that he can glimpse potential outcomes, like short 'clips' in time, but not the direct path from point A to B, leading him in a position where all he can do is play the cards he has the best way he knows, to get Humanity where he wants it to be at. The Horus Heresy could well have been a play to create his own 'bad guys' to defeat and create a mythology around, perhaps expecting that the Imperial Truth wouldn't be sufficient to cut human reliance on the Warp and religion in the long run; he would instead create a legend for posterity, a cautionary tale about the dangers of religion and how selfish ambition nearly led the whole human race into dark, chaotic oblivion. It might certainly strike a chord more so, than an imperial crier or teacher simply saying, "Religion is bad". A great gamble to be sure, an even greater atrocity, where a few miscalculations and outside influences led Malcador and the EoM to come up just short of success.
Edit: Though this is also more of a stray thought, but it could be that Malcador and the EoM were aware of the rising psychic ability between each generation of humans, and didn't trust other human civilizations - no matter how prosperous they might seem - to have sufficient knowledge to handle that evolution without collapsing or functioning as a catalyst for Chaos/Warp influence.
Fun fact. Religion explodes after a wave of quashing. Especially if you have martyrs. And in this case you have both.
My Theory: The Emperor was just another perpetual that was born naturally, and was a gifted psyker. Think Malcador level of strength. It wasn't until he went to Molech that he became the Emperor that we see in the lore. There he made some kind of deal with Chaos in exchange for a massive power boost. But then he went back on his end of the deal which pissed off the Chaos gods.
Also, I think the Emperor planned the Horus Heresy, but it got out of hand. I think he intended for Horus, Mortarion, Fulgrim and Angron (the four Primarchs at Isstvan III) to turn. The plan was for them to then be crushed by seven Loyalist legions at Isstvan V. This would remove one of the most broken Primarchs, Angron, as well Horus, who stands the greatest chance at challenging the Emperor for rulership of Mankind. It would also cement the loyalty of the remaining primarchs.
Remember that the Emperor already had to delete two Primarchs before any of this happened. It was clear at that point that the Primarchs were a problem, and some of the remaining Primarchs (e.g. Angron, Curze) were pretty messed up. Proactive steps had to be taken to keep them under control. But things went badly wrong. There were two things that the Emperor didn't anticipate. First, that Magnus would go to Terra and do absolutely nothing wrong, thus destroying the Webway project. Second, that four of the seven legions sent to Isstvan were actually on Horus's side. Instead of wiping out a few threatening primarchs and solidifying the loyalty of the rest, he ended up with three loyalist legions effectively destroyed, nine legions turned traitor, and the Webway project ruined, all while being stuck on the golden throne holding a hell portal in the Imperial Dungeons closed, meaning that he couldn't fight. All that combined destroyed his grand plan, and he's been pretty much improvising ever since.
that isn't a theory, it's just wrong. We know where he comes from: a bunch of shamans sacrificing themselves to merge their souls into one being.
This idea has much merit.
pretty much what im thinking. considering his relationship with the other perpetuals being explained in the books. his psychic abilities allowed him to unlock some cheat codes.
This is the conclusion I came to myself after reading the Horus Heresy books. Emp Daddy played with his hand so close to his chest because he is totally convinced of his own ability to puppeteer the events and this turned on him hard. I can't help but wonder how the future of Magnus would've been if only Empz would've acknowledged him when he burst through the webway. Like, I get it, he ruined your toys but you didn't need to sic the dogs on him.
I think you are on to something here! This is the most convincing theory I have seen, because I am sure it is stated in The Vengeful Spirit that the Emperor arrived at Molech in a space craft but then left without the need for it. So this would suggest he got a massive power boost on this planet and gained the ability to travel the galaxy without the need for a ship, which could also explain all the other abilities he now has.
The problem with 40k is too many cooks spoil the soup.
To give you an example in DC comics, Jack Kirby created the New Gods fairly early on in his career. It was a genius move with these beings that were the living concepts of good, evil, heroism, selfishness and all that other stuff. They existed outside the universe and had all kinds of major plot points about them.
Then a new writer comes along and he is nowhere near as talented as Jack, but he puts pen to paper and writes a story where Darkseid is just another alien bad guy living on just another planet somewhere inside the universe.
You’ve got good writers with tons of imagination…and then you get guys who are just there to make money for themselves and the brand. I know it’s not as interesting as maybe everything tying together in the end, but that’s what it’s like with these long running series.
However, all hope is not lost. There are still plenty of good writers out there, and perhaps someone who loves the story and knows the lore will walk into the 40k offices one day and go. “Okay guys, here’s how we fix this shit, fill in all the plot holes, and have 40k go out with a bang…you know, before we reset everything because we still want to make money.”
I like the idea of the Golden Throne being something from the Golden Age, because it feeds into My Head Canon that the Emperor is himself a Psychic Construct/Weapon from the humanity's past. Correct me if I'm Wrong, but the way I understand it is the Eldar Gods were created by the Old Ones and Eldar are unable to reproduce the technology required to even Repair the damaged parts of Webway, which is a sort of Psychic, require a certain level of psychic prowess to work with. The Emperor was able to create a whole new section of the webway, something the Eldar have not been able to do, or at least haven't been able to do within the last couple millennia. It wouldn't surprise me if Golden Age Humanity was able to outdo the Eldar in this aspect. being able to construct their own "Deity" like the Old One's did. This would explain, IMO, why the Emp. is so physically powerful, why he's so fervent in the doctrine of the "Imperial Truth", why he can take pieces of himself and put them in others. These aspects, in there respective forms, are all present in the other "deities" of 40K and in regards to the Eldar gods, they are constructs. And if Emps. is a Psychic construct/weapon for humanity in the same way that say Kane is to the Eldar, many of his actions can be understood and explained in this frame, and also why he's humble enough to state that it will be baseline humanity that inherit the galaxy, because he knows and states constantly that he is no god, he no more man that any other, in fact he was MADE by them.
(Maybe as a response to the Men of Iron/ fall of the STCs, a being that is human who retains the knowledge and power to unite and keep Humanity going; a tool)
damn, they should be teaching 40K lore in school because I could definitely write a whole essay about it. Hell, I'm watching one right now!
I love this idea, but how do we explain the Emperors great age?
@@TitusCastiglione1503 I mean, he's still pretty old
@@TitusCastiglione1503 his memory could easily be fabricated by his makers or something, maybe even the sigillites created him.
@@TitusCastiglione1503 It is well known that the Emperor can dominate the minds of others. Every "memory" of the ancient past, isn't his own memories. But rather the memories of the minds he dominated through the warp, where time is non-fluid.
A few comments about the shaman theory:
1. If we follow the history of man, neolithic man came from Africa and then migrated over the world - if this event was pre-migration then the distances are not as meaningful. As at this time, humanity is so small that the distances are manageable by walking (perhaps over a long period of time, but given that this meeting lasted for centuries... not as big a burden.)
2. If we assume they are all at the same place and died at the same time - via poison, well they just "drink the kool aid" in a cult like finale.
3. The power of that huge physic link between them, and their souls combining into Big E - the fact he is a perpetual is easily a outcome. The shamans themselves were subject to such reincarnation.
4. The idea of the throne being powered via all those psychers is well in line with this story of his creation - it is to keep the system he is made of going. It is the actions of the first creation repeating.
The African origin has been disproven.
@@viktordickinson7844 What? When? And How? All of our fossils of early humans come entirely from Africa.
@@viktordickinson7844 Got a source my dude?
@@belthesheep3550 he made it the fk up
@@FateDarkess Psykers, son, they get sacrificed in response to trauma
Malice is a warp entity that gains its strength from the great game between the other chaos gods. He only has a very small following in the material plane. But I think it is important to note here that he is actively benefiting from the other chaos gods fighting. He doesn't need a strong presence in reality. And if all the chaos gods are truly gods that would make Malice stronger then them and higher on the hierarchy. This is a single point that really needs to be expanded on. The other chaos gods fuel him. Not the other way around. He is most likely the creator of the great game.
My question is what of the Starchild and what about the sensei does that factor into what the emperor actually is who we might be what is motives might be? Are the sensei perpetuals? Is the Starchild the ultimate culmination of the perpetuals of being even more powerful than a perpetual? Perhaps the sensei are the perpetuals in another form? Is the Starchild just a manifestation of power say like the chaos gods are a manifestation of certain aspects of humanities darker aspects. Could not the emperor be a god but not a god of benevolence and Goodwill but perhaps a god as the chaos gods are god of wrath or death or vengeance and then that would supplement your views that he could be the chaos God of malice that seems likely to me but he could also be considered a virtue in that he seems like a god of knowledge of curiosity there are Greek and Roman mythologies surrounding individuals in mythology that sought knowledge and wisdom that was forbidden and led to their downfall or demise the tragedy of knowing something you shouldn't know
@@Cursed0rDamned from my reading, the sensai can be perpetuals, but they're not always. The Starchild storyline seems to have shifted to it being related to the Tyranids, in the literature genestealer cultists refer to the Star children or the birth of a Star Child, so perhaps its in reference to thier 'god' or gestalt consciousness.
If I'm being totally honest the sensai haven't been mentioned in over a decade, thier essence is used as ammunition so perhaps they've all been wiped out. Whereas the Star Child lore has been a plot point in the last couple of years so perhaps thats an indication.
If anyone has seen an old sci-fi called Lexx, the Devine Shadow secretly had mankind on the dinner plate. 20 thousand planets. He had been corrupted by the insectiod essence Once for the Lexx ship then for the GigaShadow. This vid has got me thinking after the Malice mention
Fabius Bile, Lieutenant Commander of the Emperor's Children:
"Unlike you, whelp, I once walked the same ground as your idol. I breathed the same air as him. And I tell you this, without lie or artifice. He never wanted to become what you have made him! He did not wish to be your god-thing. He abhorred such ideals! The slavery of your crippled, blind Imperium would sicken him, if he had eyes to see it."
Darktide is good book
Fabius Bile, the Rick of the Warhammer 40k universe
@@chrisvinicombe9947 Do you mean Black Tide? I couldn't find a Dark Tide book. Sorry, just trying to make sure I have right book before I buy it.
@@ledzep215 ah yeah your right. Black tide it is
Damn that's based af
My theory is that the age of the Emperor is a lie; in truth, he is, or was, a preserved specimen of the Men of Gold, who was held in the vaults of the Sigilites, and it was Malcador who decided to unleash the being, thinking it the best - or only - way of saving humanity.
This, so many people skip over the Men of Gold and go to the Men of Iron, but the Men of Gold was ment to be the ultimate of humanity, the Big E could have been a Man of Gold that hid/ or was imprisoned till he was needed
This makes the most sense of the timeline. The fact that emps didn’t do anything until 30k is highly suspicious if he existed before the warp storms
@@cosmictreason2242 yep
Men of gold? I'm not familiar with that bit of lore.
@@seekingabsolution1907 it’s deliberately vague. During the dark age of technology there were three groups of note, the men of stone (probably robots), the men of iron (probably AI) and the men of gold (probably ubermensch). Note that the parentheses are purely my speculation. All know is the men of iron went to war with the rest of mankind and caused the whole civilization to collapse. Consequently people infer that that was basically a Skynet machine rebellion. The details of what these factions were and did are deliberately fuzzy to provoke thought and debate
Theres an interesting idea in that whole thing with horus and malcador. Malcador is a lot like the wandering advisor in warhammer total war, who is usually somewhat chaos inclined. Horus talks of great attrocities, this may be the sacrifices used to create the emperor and maybe even other perpetuals. Is the golden throne a machine to create perpetuals? When you create enough perpetuals, could you not likewise sacrifice them to create beings like the emperor, and then what is the next level? Had mankind not just made the webway and the astronomicon but also a sort of god machine. (I suspect the whole slaneesh thing wasnt just the sheer psychic will of the eldar but that coupled with a ritual, this may mirror what the emperor was doing. He did afterall live through the birth of slaneesh right before revealing himself)
Mayhaps macador lived to see the emperor created
Man I don’t have words to describe what a masterpiece this video is. Well done.
I’ve always enjoyed the idea that the Emperor was true to his intentions in the beginning. That he wasn’t a God, and detested the idea of religion. But as we know, things didn’t go according to plan. And now, 10,000 years after he was entombed on the Golden Throne of Terra, he’s becoming the very thing he swore to destroy. A god. A figurehead for blind religious zealots.
Assuming that’s what’s happening, I’m left with a different question. WAS he being truthful? Did he really “become a god” in a sort of twisted fate and mistake? Or was this his plan all along?
He’s an edge lord teenager in his maturity level, there’s no way he gamed this out
I am 100% with you on this. The REAL heresy was committed by those that made him a god. However, apparently prayer to him somehow does have some kind of warp effect and maybe having an Emperor cult was the only/easiest route to get the warp effect and protect the galaxy (or at least delay the forces of chaos).
*MUCHO TEXTO INBOUND*
The problem is that it’s implied in the lore (to my memory) he inspired or took on the guise of various religious figures in the early days of Earth (Atleast in WH40k).
It’s implied he inspired or took the guise of Moses, Christ, and/Buddha during his time guiding humanity. Plus it makes sense, because for all the faults and zealots many of the main religions had, they taught values not just of order but ideals that run contra to the Chaos Gods. Temperance, compassion, honesty, etc. Plus, humans are not purely materialistic creatures, there is a sense of yearning for a higher purpose. A need for such things.
If the Emperor was the original inspiration or founder of many of not all mankind’s major religions…he likely knew this. Yet he saw this issue with the zealotry, but instead of sorting them out, I think he completely overcorrected.
He went the opposite direction and in doing so also tried creating a system that was based on a bigger lie.
As Jaghatai noted, the Imperial Truth is an outright lie. The supernatural in the 40k universe is an objective fact. The Emperor’s Great Crusade to install an atheistic, “rational” worldview killed even more people than the religious zealots before him.
Not only that but it was ultimately his and his “perfect” Imperium’s downfall. The Emperor wanted to play god and use his godly powers to shape Mankind’s future. He also borrowed heavily the concepts and designs from past religions, that he claimed have despised.
This is not to say the Emperor Of Mankind is stupid, incompetent, and/or weak. Quite the opposite, otherwise the Imperium never would’ve been built. Rather, in a sense of irony, like many of the most intelligent and accomplished of mankind…they can become victims to their ego. Thinking they have everything figured out, when in reality, they don’t. Thus when they make a mistake, it strikes that much harder. Which is no doubt why so many turned traitor.
Personally? I think the Emperor would’ve been better of embracing the idea that he was a guardian god of mankind. Instead of destroying and denouncing religion, creating a new one and refining it’s tenets. Also, actually warning people about The Warp and the dark powers, instead of denying their existence.
I get the idea of why he did it, but it seems to have backfired spectacularly. Plus, if people don’t know what a thing is, how can they properly defend against it?
*tl;dr* I think the Emperor and Imperium would‘be been if the Emperor just accepted the role of a god. That, or not deny the existence of the supernatural.
And funny how that same thing he never wanted becoming a God or worshipped as such is what kept humanity going.
@@cosmictreason2242 shit didn’t go according to plan for him we know as much. But the question is long term, was he hoping to eventually become a god? Or is this all against his wishes like the imperial truth would have you believe?
Any lesser rank would not import the proper severity of such heresy.
SEND IN THE GRANDMASTER INQUISITOR
Okay so it always baffled me that on many occasions it has been indicated that emperor never truly cared for his sons and treated them merely as his tools. So why would he ever let Horus injur him like that? The theory that the emperor may have planned Horus heresy seems pretty likely. On the other hand I don't think it was his plan to be benched on the golden throne for so long.
Now bear with me, Chaos needs souls and emotions to fuel the Ruinous Powers. They wouldn't want the Horus or Emperor to win. This perpetual state of war is actually more beneficial to the dark gods. Maybe when the emperor made a pact on Molech he was played when he thought he was playing chaos. Maybe that is why traitors made so little progress in 10k years.
The "Emperor doesn't love his children" is a thing nerds love to bring up cause it's more grimdak i guess but it's kinda retarded tbh.
perhaps emps allowing horus to injure him was a lie to explain him being so critically hurt and in reality he only just won the fight
Except the Chaos gods don't really think like that. They aren't capable of questioning or altering their own goals, even though fulfilling those goals would destroy them in the end. They are very intelligent, but they are not fully sentient as they are completely incapable of introspection.
@@screamingcactus1753 i guess that could make sense, they are chaos incarnate after-all i guess, but how did you come to that conclusion? what makes something sentient as opposed to intelligent? they are aware of themselves, they have their own specific palaces and realms in which they reside. they are physically there in the warp. for example, khorn was attacked by skarbrand, and slaanesh physically awaits those that can get through its 6 circles of seduction etc. they decide who they raise to be their daemon princes so clearly they are capable of deciding who can serve them to the greatest extent. that would imply to me that they are capable of thought and introspection and any other complex thoughts and even emotions.
@@screamingcactus1753 I cannot think how beings like Tzeentch would be able to manipulate and prepare these elaborate plans spanning sometimes thousands of years if they weren't capable of such things. We do not really know what their goals are except that they are not as interested in physical plane as they are in their machinations in the warp. In that regard physical realm is more like a source of resources for their constant wars in the warp. Well at least that is my head cannon I wanted to share. Half of the WH40k lore doesn't make sense anyway and contradicts itself and it's old. I do not think that at the time of first conceptualization of this part of lore anyone at GW was thinking about it any more than this is grimdark imperium with God emperor and these are space devils with their satanic cults now lets sell some mini figures. It's still an open book that will be retconned a lot.
"Emperor is Malice" might make some amount of sense if you theorize that Malice represented Chaos in its most basic and self-destructing sense, and to that end, the goal of Malice was entropy through total annihilation of the Warp. Malice realized that this was, more or less, impossible given its current state and essentially remade itself into Emperor to then be reborn as the God of Order, now possessing the means to snuff the warp. The big shtick about Malice was that, the more cultists it had, the weaker it would become due to its nihilistic nature. But posing as Emperor could, technically, dance around that: while, also, fucking with Malice in the process given that Malice is a warp being and, thus, collective belief of humanity would affect it: aka, just as people saw the Emperor as different things, so did the Emperor felt as many things, which probably isn't nice. Hell, might even assume that Malcador was one of the few, true cultists of Malice, explaining his powers. Hell, if you want to push it even further, that explains why Malcador wanted Horus to not trust him (so that Heresy would play out) and would explain why Emperor and Malcador are obsessed with control and go full rage mode when someone discovers, even if a bit, just what they really were (effects of Malice trying to become Order)
I mean, I don't think that this will be the case, but GW could do something historic if that will end up being the case and humans will just become the bad guys once Emperor is reborn as God of Order.
Chaos gods manifesting in physical form as such is not really something I've ever come across so the Emperor *literally* being malice is a bit of a long shot. He could well be a *Daemon prince of Malice* (the most powerful daemon in the warp possibly) and that would in fact make a *lot* of sense. It explains the need for Mankind to dominate the galaxy, because Mankind is the chosen tool of the Emperor's, a psychically capable race that could have enough temperance and endurance to literally starve the chaos gods of emotional energy, by spreading across the galaxy and annihilating all other warp-sensitive races. It would also make sense of the Burning Legion and the Saints as daemons of Malal. It also would explain why the Emperor did NOT want to be worshipped as a God as it would feed emotions of faith into the warp that would congeal into Malal's daemons, possibly somehow entrapping Malal into the warp or making him dependent on humanity's faith, increasingly so over time, subverting Malal's plan to use humanity as his chosen instrument for the destruction of the other chaos gods (that is, assuming Malal didn't want to become Order). And although the Chaos gods succeeded in derailing Malice's designs, they didn't totally defeat them and through a great twist of irony humanity's faith has sent mankind and Malice down a path of symbiotic evolution, where Malal has to some degree changed from simply being the anti-Chaos god into an "Order God".
I quite like this idea of humanity this forgotten toy or failed experiment that the Old Ones simply abandoned after having far greater initial success for their own goals with the Eldar, and Malice being the underdog of Chaos selecting humanity, the underdog of the 40k verse, as his chosen instrument.
@@dionbridger5944 That was a beautiful response, damn! I mean, the whole "Malal will become dependent on humanity's faith" is actually a really good counterargument. As a thought, Malcador still could've been worshipper of Malal, and he could've been the one to approach Emperor with the idea; if we are going along with that idea. Also, the "humans are forgotten, poorly made toys of Old Ones" sounds like something that you would expect from warhammer universe.
Only problem with that was the emperor literally fed the warp. The expansion of the imperium is what fed more souls and powered the warp more than anything else since the eldar and the fall. The warp would actually be much weaker.
The Cawl book pretty heavily insinuates that the Big E is a weapon of the Old Ones and I dig that explanation.
Seems less silly than a mass suicide pact which is a pretty extreme thing to do no matter how much of a threat they believed chaos posed
I believe that the emperor allowed himself to become one with Malice while on Molech, and that's why he came back through the portal significantly more powerful than when he entered.
Hmmmm order and *true chaos* do balance each other out but would also make thoughts, fleeing, views, and ideas very conflicting and seem bipolar. Your theory is outlandish but I must admit it makes sense in a few key areas. I like it!
Also I love Malice he’s my favorite chaos god!
@@justadogobeingdogo5766 I believe that the emperor chose to stall when battling horus. Because in a panic, Malice may have tried to "eject" the emperor from his own body. In an effort to take over and fight back against Horus.
Which the emperor allowed to happen because it was his plan..
I don't think it was his plan the whole time. More like an audible being called once he learned about the future in the outcast dead novel.
I think it was what allowed him to enter the warp as a new being, the star child.
He also would have known what his custodies would do when they found his body broken by the fight with Horus. The act of placing him back upon the throne would trap malice.
the separation would allow him to be the one that received power from the faith and prayers of humanity. While the Imperium feeds the throne daily so that it doesn't fully break down and release a very angry and vengeful god of chaos. Which would shed some real light on the terminus decree as well
11:03
Cyrene is a Perpetual that was “created” by a daemonic ritual performed by Erebus. So I see Perpetuals as a classification, not as a common heritage. Any human psychically powerful enough to reincarnate itself is a Perpetual. This can be achieved by literally any means. For example, a human cursed to relive the same fatal mistake that caused their first death (maybe by Tzeentch trickery or some other outside force) is a Perpetual just as Vulkan is by sheer psychic will.
It makes me wonder if only humans can be Perpetuals and not other sapient species in the galaxy.
If it only does manifest in humans, why is that?
As another example of an artificially created perpetual, John Grammaticus comes to mind. Wasn't he made a perpetual by the Cabal?
@@flan310 yes he was the main artificial one in the HH storyline and he eventually loses it though after he teams up with Eldanesh to save Vulkan.
I know I’m in the minority but I have always chosen to look at the Emperor in an idealistic light. I think he’s was simply the most powerful perpetual who is just trying to ensure the continuation of the human race. I don’t know why but I just can’t imagine him having seen all of the suffering like the Horus Heresy and be apathetic. My bet has always been he just seems detached due to him being so very old, while everyone finds him so disturbing because of his sheer astronomical psychic ability. Then again, I also subscribe to the idea that one’s fate is not set in stone, so I guess me and Luetin might not agree on much.
He tries very hard to talk a priest of the old faith into accepting, that there is no such thing as a god. Only to reveal himself to him which of course has the opposite effect. 10 foot golden halo boi tends to do that.
The point is he wants to persuade and engage wirh the Priest as a human.
If Malice and big E are connected, then maybe they were intended to be one being but were separated by some force.
E might have never really been human, but he certainly seems to want to be one and has an interest in preserving humanity.
I don’t think it’s a minoritarian outlook, the emperor has always been kind of a sympathetic figure because he is mortally wounded on the throne, and yet still uses his lingering physic strength to protect humanity from the many threats throughout the galaxy.
I agree. I believe and hope that the emperor is inherently good, and wants what’s best for humanity. Even if the means to the end seem bad at the interim. The emperor protects!
@@Machiavelli2pc Read "Mortis" that is totally confirmed
Back in Medieval Earth, he makes some frankly scary choices and uses some knowledge and power that created the lliteral universe, when it should have been destroyed.
Could play into this by having his 40k self manipulate himself(~30k) into creating this reality.
This being the "safest" and ultimates best outcome is a good bit of grimdark imo.
On that bit about the old ones tampering, I've always wondered if humans where designed to be the middleground between orcs and Eldar. Since humans seem to have a strong connection to the warp compared to other species, but also seem to have a psy waaaagh effect of their own. Especially when you consider the abilities revealed recently that the sororitas have
This whole idea of shamans is curious. In one Novel Magos Cawl with prototype primaris Primus meet and speak with C'tan shard powering pharos beacon remains.
Shard told them he sees Old Ones hand in them as Emperor was theire creation.
That’s a good name
I approve
What effects do the sororitas have? I’m unfamiliar, unless you are talking about the faith/waaaagh effect humans can have in general.
@@nickcarroll8565 yeah thats what I mean, but also specifically how sororitas seem to carry that ability even when the warp is sealed off by the necrons black pylons. Which is why I thought calling it a human waaagh was fitting, the grey knights have a similar effect come to think of it.
On a meta level I always find it interesting to look at literary and philosophical parallels within 40k. When it comes to the Emperor and Malchador a favorite of mine is looking at them in the light of Merlin and Arthur.
The Emperor of Man reminds me of the vampires from the Vampire Hunter D books - holding back superior knowledge and technology until they had a prime opportunity to strike (the end of the world) and then, and only then, stepping onto the world stage to take the reigns and direct history.
Man I would like them to finish that series in anime.
@@greyknighttexan3299 Why bother? we all are gonna have front row seats irl >.>
@@beardfistthegoldenone7273 true
I freakin LOVE this channel! I had no idea the 40k lore was so awesome and involved. I think I got the bug guys... don't let any miniatures get near me!
I’ve long since considered and accepted that the emperor is actually closer to a collective consciousness that had, for the most part, reached a form of harmony with themselves, but not entirely. The minute aspects of the previous souls either slowly recombined, or never did. The ones the never did ended up expanding as he was on the golden thrown until he had dozens of different selves. Potentially the glue that was holding everything together has withered to differing extents, but never truly able to separate, with both body and soul having been shared for so long that it may not even be able to be identified as a single person, but neither multiple people. Ironically he’s closer to a chaos god now as he’s more of a collection of selves then a singular self.
i love your idea of Malice/Malal literally BEING the warp-God the Emperor bacame.
Maybe the Emperor is a true AI from the Age of Technology, and Malcador was the human (perpetual) that he bonded with. That would explain a great deal: why the Emperor is so powerful and knowledgeable, why anyone who confronts his true face is terrified, why Malcador had an inexplicable influence over him, why the Emperor is committed to mankind despite seemingly not being human himself.
While interesting, this theory has a major flaw. The Emperor is a psyker, which requires a connection to the warp, and I don't know of any AI with such a connection
Emperor is an AI? Now that would be fun. Ad Mech ain't gonna have any of that!!!
@@NicholasKratzer There's no reason why an AI couldn't simply grow a custom organic brain capable of generating a soul. In fact, an AI as intelligent as the emperor could even optimize it to generate the most powerful psychic abilities possible.
@@NicholasKratzer Presumably an AI that was advanced enough to feel emotions could interact with the warp.
@@NicholasKratzer the Physic titans of the Ordo Sinister.
Based on ADB's description of the Hollow Mountain, in Echoes of Eternity, I determined that the Astronomicon is built into Tianmen Mountain in China. It's about 4-5k miles from Kathmandu, so this helps explain why Sanguinius determined that Corswain was too far away to try and help defend the Delphic Battlements.
I find the Emperor to be an incredibly close parallel to Griffith from Beserk. A man driven entirely by unbreakable ambition, whose greatest strength is his intoxicating allure that seems outright othewordly. They straddle the lines of morality, their ends and methods outright diabolical at times, while at others altruistic in nature. While clearly beyond the reaches of normal men, the emperor's inconsistantcies and murky character end up making him one of the most human characters of 40k.
I always felt Griffith's long term goal was to sacrifice the entire "perfect" civilization that he was protecting and creating. I don't think he had any real altruism. Just pure ambition.
I thought that too. Falconia reminded me of the early imperium : an island of civilisation in a world filled with monsters, an army of savage but superhuman soldiers (thunder warriors/apostles), a desire to unite all humanity, a device that facilitate travel (the world tree/astronomicon), a leader with an unknown agenda, its former allies turning away from him (guts and rickert/the perpetuals), a bird-like imagery, even the chaos gods and god hand, the warp and the astral realm. Maybe we could see in 40k the way berserk will end
I've always thought the Emperor was the peak of humanities efforts to harness the warp during the Dark Age of Technology. With his abilities he could have seen the sheer horror of what lay in wait there and deemed humanities efforts to further their grasp of it to be cataclysmic in nature. On he goes to destabilise the regime, corrupting their men of iron and rebuilding from the ashes with him at the helm, steering humanity away from the immaterium as much as possible. Knowing a clash is inevitable with the chaos gods he builds himself an army. Yes he is said to have been around before then but a psychic nudge to those few who could deny it isn't out of the question and admitting it would show that their only hope is from the age he is striving to avoid replicating. Could be a dumb explanation but who knows.
this is pretty good
We already know there are perpetuals older than the Emperor supposedly is, he could have just been a "normal" perpetual before getting super charged
If he really existed before the end of the daot then it doesn’t make any sense why he didn’t try to unite humanity at an earlier date and get more work done before slaanesh was born
I love your series, and your vast knowledge of this subject. It is phenomenal, and almost frightening. If I might make one small humble request... stray from talking about people who bring you misquotes, or knowledge that isn't so factual and consider it so. You have such a great tenor, and this talk, especially when it comes up repeatedly just brings the episode down for me. I won't pretend to know why you do so, or what it does, or even how frustrated it may make you feel. I speak only from the single view of one listener who truly adores your work and supports you in any way you have allowed. You, singularly you, are a fantastic online personality that provides a level of entertainment about this subject that I feel is unmatched. Never stop!
Wild speculations...
The Cathan gave the Necrontir the knowlege of the soulforge. That burned their flesh and fed their souls the Cathan.
Now considder the story that The emperor fought a dragon, was unavle to slay it. But imorissoned it on mars. And that this is a cathan chard.
So, perhaps the emperor learned of the soulforge technology from that shard. And integrated it into the Golden throne, for some reason. They say its to fuel the Astronomicon, the throne... or bouth?
The eldar dont go burning souks as far as I know. So makes sense to me that the chamber where they burn spykers is a machine a kin to the soulforge.
Yes Inquisitor, this man right here
“Thank you for your service, but you are tainted”
*BLAM*
Is't the Emperor plan to draw on the life of thousand of life's each day while sitting on the throne suspiciously similar to what the C'tan were doing to the Necrontyr millions of years before?
Yes, yes it is.
@@grolash6219 the words of Iskander Khayon just rang to my ears: Gods are abominations: vampiric entities who draw their nourishment from our existence.
@@Leptospirosi Even if that was the case if the Emperor ever falls then the whole of Humanity will follow with it.
I always thought that was a part of the literary tragedy of the Imperium.
@@iloveplayingpr Naw Trayzen the Pimpfinite will take his rightful throne as the Overlord of the lost and true Necrontyr.
My opinion:
I always liked the idea that the Emperor was an Old One, perhaps the very same that initially created humanity and watched over it (Hence why the Emperor knows so much about human history yet was never seen or heard of).
Then when the Dark Age happened, the Old One decided he had to do something and took the form of an ultimately powerful human, the Emperor.
Malcador could've been a normal human (Or a Perpetual) that the Old One (Now the Emperor) had recruited to help him better understand humanity and to help him make decisions that would seem like they came from a human, and not some million years old alien. Hence why Malcador says that the Emperor wasn't the Emperor until he met Malcador, because it was Malcador that taught him how to rule over humanity the way a human would.
So while the Emperor would be making all the final decisions, he would heavily relay on Malcador to guide him so his decisions and actions seemed more ''Human'' and less alien to the masses.
Also would explain why Malcador created the Council of Terra - The Old One never intended to lead humanity forever and would slowly give them back control through the Council of Terra.
I would assume that where things went awry, was when the Old One had to be put on the Golden Throne, he basically had to sacrifice himself in order to keep humanity alive. Then over time, the Imperial Creed took over the Imperium and an actual God Emperor came to life in the Immaterium, hence why we now have Saints and the Legion of the Damned, which are basically Daemons in their own rights - which we didn't have in WH30K, back when the Emperor ''Still existed''.
Saints would be the equivalent of demon princes, or the counterparts of possessed?
@@nixonsprguy3629 I guess they'd fall into the category of demon princes, with Celestine being the top ranking one - Or maybe that'd be Sanguinius (Since hes been venerated for a longer period of time & even has his own Holiday, which would increase the likelihood of a Sanguinius Daemon taking form in the Warp)
The Emperor appears quite ignorant of human history in the last church, stating blatant falsehoods (witch hunts, etc). One could assume that the Emperor is not as old as he claims. Or that the author had just a massive religious hate boner. I'd like the first explanation better since it would prove the author to be somewhat capable but the book was written quite poorly imho so its probably not worldbuilding but an author not bothering to do research.
@@chrismath149 yeah, or big E is not only powerful af but also borderline insane, a liar and, as you said, ignorant.
I always listen before I want to sleep or just rest for a bit. The intro is always making me feel so sleepy and your voice is just comfortable to listen to.
Wonder how Guilliman is sorting out the inquisition right now
We'll find out in 10 years.
my guess is with a very large bat
@@PopeMetallicus God I hope so
Exterminatus
From what I read, he is cautious with them, and they have enough common sense to see that they have bigger problems than Bobby G. But, they still think that _they_ are the Emperor's voice, and certainly not Guilliman.
When luetin uploads you have to drop everything and run
#facts
Exactly I was grinding in clash of clans but when the notification came I stopped everything I will first watch this
Agreed.
I just came from work and as i dropped my bag and took out my phone i saw the upload. Here we are and i know what i'll be doing now
Literally me rn
"Everything is darkest, before the dawn." EoM being a Malice explains a lot o things and put certain events in new light. I would like to hear more about that.
Malcadors statement hits close to home for us in reality. Such a great character.
52:25 Let's not forget that the Emperor destroyed most of those very advanced civilizations and stole their technology. Often causing great damage when conquering them. Other civilizations such as Dorn's or Guilimans were more advanced by the time the Emperor found them, than most of the Imperium. So it's a good question what was the Imperium doing actually?
Assuming big e had humanity’s best interests at heart, I’d say he was wiping out tech that would lead to a similar repeat of what happened with the fall of daot humanity.
@@nickcarroll8565 Hm. Interesting POV. Those people lived better than most in the Imperium. Also survived, also hated chaos, and yeah, manufactorums and the like are not nice. But I understand the pov.
I wonder if the golden thrown is basically a "xp-farm" but for warp energy, maybe he is trying to become comparable to chaos gods (maybe the space mariens that appear out of thin air, i think they were called legion of the damned)
So basically the chaos god of humans, but the process is not fast enough as servants of the other chaos gods are more efficent than the throne
Their servants aren't as efficient as the Emperor's. It's just that the Chaos gods feed off *everyone's* emotions, they don't need their cultists as much as the Emperor does.
Two things that I've found weird about the Emperor and Malcador being around during the Dark Age of Technology and having some idea the Age of Strife was coming:
1. How did they manage to preserve so little technology? Why not just preserve a fully functioning STC? Why not memorize technologies with what I assume is super human memory that they have?
2. Why not prevent it? Did they even try? If not, was it perhaps opportunism on their part in order to take power?
Probably because humanity had the tech to destroy the Emperor back then, humanity needed a massive downgrade before he could come into power.
@@halloweener3754 big e might have thought daot humanity was on the right path. May not have foreseen the fall of men of iron. I also don’t recall if the men of iron fell before the eldar did.
This is exactly why I don’t believe they were around before
It could be like the Foundation series, where characters, like Seldon/emps find out to late to stop the fall but can mitigate it and better plan for the future
Perhaps they destroyed them or allowed them to be forgotten in anticipation of the heresy. Had chaos wielded DAoT weapons, that would be the end for humanity
This is the most insightful video on the emporor and malcador i have ever seen. It makes horus’ fall seem way more plausible and justified. Great stuff!
I do like the idea of The Emperor being in some ways tied to Malice, maybe unintentionally so.
The idea of him being Malice in the flesh isn't that far fetched either - in The Labyrinth, the 11 Sons of Malice do end up summoning something from the warp, with the only real indication as to what it is being the pov marine's belief that it actually is Malice.
While the other 4 chaos gods can't be summoned to the materium due to how many souls would have to be sacrificed, Malice is a much weaker entity, and would therefore require much less sacrifice - maybe only those 11 devotees.
Like maybe the reason why Malice materialises as a black and white flaming skeleton is because he's in the middle of materialising a fleshy casing and not because that's his regular form
Even though is like 99% not the case, it's still fun to think about.
Also, Malice gets summoned in the Eye of Terror - what if in order to "revive" the Emperor, the empire would have to go into the Eye of Terror to pull him out of the Warp?
Also disguising himself as a superhuman in order to destroy the other chaos gods is definitely something Malice would do
One thing I like about the combined-reincarnation / shaman story is that it provides an additional reason the Emperor won’t let himself die and be reborn: the different souls that make up his own, given the opportunity of his death, might decide “wow, that didn’t go well” and refuse to rejoin and reform him.
They may not even be able to.
@@S3Cs4uN8 Well it was 4th Edition Canon
I dont specifically know where its been retconned
I am unreasonably excited for new Leutin material. I wasn't even a 40k fan prior to this channel. Now I can't slate the thirst. Lovely video -- as always, tremendously narrated.
You make some excellent points.
One small error though is that *you've failed to secure the perimeter and I am hidden mere feet from your position*
I like the Malice theory as it nicely explains why the Emperor didn't help mankind in the golden age, and why he didn't save some STCs to help humanity grow again after the AI rebelled
That's stupid though. If he favored victory of chaos above mankind he'd have no qualms with using STCs and men of iron to further his ends. Just cuz some MoI can be corrupted by chaos doesnt mean they all are.
It would explain so much. It explains his relationship with the other chaos gods, it explains why humanity is where it is. It explains why even many of the loyalist marines are downright evil.
@@inthefade
‘These planets were hells. For generations we have recruited the strong over the weak, in the belief it makes our warriors better. I do not think this is so. Cruel men make cruel warriors make cruel lords. We need to be better. We need to rise over the need for violence and recognize other human qualities in our recruits. //Guilliman
@@georgerafa5041 Malices main goal being to defeat the other gods though would make it make sense though, as he knows that he also needs to either make all of humanity worship only him to give him power, while wiping out the rest of the sentient races.
This is basically what the Imperium is doing, it has goal of wipe out all intelligent life that isn't human, while humanity is taught to worship only the Emperor.
I mean ye it probably isn't going to be right, but it would be a cool twist, and honestly does make a bit of sense.
@@silversurfer8818 Man this universe was so much better before Matt Ward's Ultramarines
What is a god anyway? Without the Emperor there is no Astronomican. So there will be no warp-travel. Hence without the Emperor there is no Imperium of Man. That's god enough.
Nice
That's no God that's a utility
Ah yes that sinking feeling I get in my stomach whenever lutin talks about how the emperor is actually malice
You should definitely read God Emperor of Dune. The concept of a long living precient tyrant guiding humanity on a single path to survival is central to it. And the books before might help with the idea that the only path could be something your trapped into, you can’t avoid
If my memory serves, In dune Leto was trying to free humanity from this trap by somehow making humans Who are free from his own ability to see the future... Like by creating a world so harsh and Dumb that those kind of genes would emerge to adapt to it and finally kill him. Is there something similar in 40k?
In "the outcast dead" it seems that emperor staying on a throne forever was expected, it was in the prophecy one of the astropath masters could decipher. And emperor talking to another bearer of prophecy stated that "sometimes the only way to no to lose is not to let your enemy win" or similar. Emperor was aware of how the plan would result in stagnation but accepted it as alternative to Chaos winning. So if its canon ethernal stagnation on the throne was known and part of plan.
The lore master has blessed us once again by sharing his knowledge. Thank you kind sir for all that you do for us fans
That's gae, you gae.
Too bad everybody who clicked on this video is going to be visited by the Inquisition...
@@nekozaemon3803 who's an edgy boi? You're an edgy boi.
@@DanielWW2 I'd like to see them try to find me.
@@brandongriffey9474 gae
If even the Custodes question the Emepror you know that maybe the renegades and heretics might have abit of reason
Weren´t the Custodes made and trained to speak to and debate with the Emperor?
Im prtty sure i've read that from somewhere.
@@citizenkhan4696 Right, but they weren’t supposed to be able to go as far as question their loyalty to the emporer.
Just question him of if it is the right decision to do something like that and if he says yes they just go along with it no more questions asked.
No, they don't. No matter what the emperor turns out to be it doesn't justify feeding the whole damn galaxy to the monstrosities of the Warp.
@@xKinjax you can be considered a renegade or a heretic without serving chaos. Look at Lomentav (can’t remember spelling) in Carrion Throne. He was just organizing underhivers to fight against dark elder creations, but was executed as a heretic.
@@xKinjax all humans end up in the warp upon death any way