DCS AH-64: How I deal with the Trimmer
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Check out RedKites great trimmer video for the nuts and bolts but for those who have asked, here is how I use the trimmer.
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Hardware:
OMEN by HP Obelisk Gaming Desktop Computer, 9th Generation Intel Core i9-9900K Processor, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER 8 GB, HyperX 64 GB RAM, 2x 1 TB NVMe SSD, Windows 10 Home
Joystick: VKB Gunfighter III with 20cm extension
Pedals: VKB MkIV
Throttle: Virpil Mongoose 3
Thanks for the shout out Casmo!
The MS Sidewinder 2 is such a great stick for helicopters, but also for fixed wing trim, it can simulate variable resistance, in a warbird, low speed = near no resistance, high speed = high resistance (simulating physical connection to your controls), Along with the typical vibration/bobbing effects for releasing weapons! Such a tragedy we lost force feedback from the consumer market.
Sure is.
My logi g940 wore out or I'd still be using it. Sorry that they didn't make a 2nd generation version...
we do have modern ffb peripherals. sure its a little pricier than a second hand sidewinder or g940. but be sure to check out brunner in switserland. i have the brunner cls-e ffb joystick base with a virpil mongoost50cm2 stick on it. also virpils 200mm s curve extension. mainly bought it for helo force trim. been flying the ka-50 since 2009 and never could get used to any of the dcs trim simulated ways with a spring stick. yeah it costs 1250 euros just for the ffb base but for my hobby completely worth it. now i want brunners ffb pedals though.
@@CasmoTV check out my reply to redkite in this thread. brunner really is worth looking into for rotorheads ;}
@@kingpinda2 Yeah I'm aware of that one, but far too poor to be buying one sadly.
Great video Casmo. Your thing about a light touch on the cyclic reminded me of the first time I took the controls on a real whirlygig. I was left seat in a Gazelle doing a track and vibe run over southern england and once I'd got all the data I needed the QHI gave me control. For a about 2 seconds all was good then I started porpoising and weaving and it started to get a bit divergent. I could hear some weird snorting noise in my headset as I fought to keep the damn thing in a straight line and glanced across to see the QHI in fits of laughter. He eventually composed himself, took the controls and said "it's a cyclic not your penis, there's no need to choke the damn thing!" Handing back control to me and this time with just 2 fingers on the stick, low and behold, the thing actually wants to fly straight. Track and Vibe was always fun in Gazelles. Sadly never got to fly "Ugly" in my time on Apache. Keep up the great work!
Yeah my brother, less is more when driving a helo
Came for the trim, stayed for the crashes.
I've enjoyed the default trim settings. It took a bit to get used to trimming my anti-torque pedals because I've never done it in other modules. Push cyclic and pedals, trim, immediately release cyclic and pedals, Apache stays like a good girl and my controls are relaxed. Feels just like how I've flown all other rotary modules. Thanks for the video!
Just change the settings in the “Special” manu to “Stick with centering and no FFB”, you won’t have to do any immediate releases, it’ll trim to current position, they you can let go off the stick gently.
Eureka. Thanks so much Cas. My winwing works so much better with instant. After watching your video I was able to fly an actual instant action and put rockets on target. Thank you I was at wits end.
I use the same settings (instant ffb) and it seems to work best. Trim is easy when in normal flight like in your video. The problems surface when you are in hover engaging targets and suddenly have to make an escape manuever. I think the upcoming reset trim "cheat" will be very helpful in the aforementioned scenario.
Damped Crosswinds with the spring removed are a godsend.
Redkite's video is great, but your video is what brought it together for me. Thanks Casmo.
I have trouble holding a zero ascend/descend hover. If I start to descend I will give it just a touch of positive collective to top the descend. Then it will slowly start to climb and go back into a positive rate of climb. When I try to stop it, it will go back into negative decent and I start it all over again. I have a thrustmaster warthog and the throttle(collective) shows no signs of bad sensor.
Yeah same problem, collective is super sensitive in the Apache.
Thank you Casmo! I've been struggling with the AH-64 - to say the least. Your comment regarding 'Central Position Trimmer Mode' being the devil...was very helpful as I had not heard other YT-bers mention it...quite that honestly. I was able to fly the bird much more effectively after watching your video, as well as @RedKiteRender's video. As another person stated, I have noticed the need release inputs on stick and rudders in both modes, for a moment. Once I started actually doing that, I'm able to fly w/o looking like a drunkard. ;)
It's seriously a beautiful thing watching you fly this.
Good information, nicely done! One of the keys to using trim is to coordinate depressing the trim button with relaxing pressure on the cyclic, allowing it to reset to the "new" center.
Man that music at the end get me dancing .. what is it?
O by the way yet another valuable video .. Thank you so much Casmo :)
Used to maintain these, really want to dig out my old tech documents etc... And geek up again after seeing all this on DCS. Awesome
Very helpful, thank you. Hoping we get altitude hold sometime soon because there are a few cases where I've yearned for those controls I have in the Ka-50 that allow me to move or hover without me having to be so hands on the entire time.
Redkite did do a great job. I really miss my Sidewinder FFB stick. I got use to the center position trimming. To me it is easier, I just set it and don't have to worry about it moving on me. I then just recenter everything, because you actually have to re-center both ways anyway.
I tried your settings and used your advice from this video. I would have to say it was a lot smoother to handle. I need to go back and check some axis tuning. Other than that, the changes were so worth it.
Up to now I haven't dealt with it at all. I just flew without and helt my hands in the correct position and adapted where needed (while moving through the stages of flight) I do appreciate the video's though! I may look into it for longer missions
Same
In my opinion one of the biggest problems with helicopter trim in DCS is that you lose part of your joysticks control authority. It doesn't have to be that way. For instance the F-14 you can trim fully and still have the full control authority. I think this is the biggest Fix ED could make. And I have no idea why they choose to make helicopter trim the way they do.
Volk also mentions in his vid under the Misc Tab that there is a FFB option that could be enabled by default (it was for me and for a few other vpilots that I know).
Great vid, again, thanks for your help to all with learning this wonderful module, which even in beta is fcukin brilliant fun.
After you mentioned in stream earlier, I changed back to the default Instant Trim from the Center Trim, and whilst you get those small 'jerks' in some circumstances, getting into a controlled transition into hover is WAY easier now. I'll still experiment, but I may be converted over. Maybe there's a middle ground? A delayed trim setting? Or a slider that could be added between when hitting trim and how long you need to get things centred.
I like the central trim mode, you just have to release the controls for a split second before you do anything again, but you kind of have to do the same for the default trimmer mode as well. I died once while using central trim mode before I realized what it did, then I haven't forgotten since. Works well for me, but tbh I think it's more of a preference thing.
Center trimming mode for those who do large steady movements holding trim, and then when flying as wanted, release it and center joystick.
Instant is for those who do continued trim clicking, tiny movement from joystick center to direction you need to go and press, press, press... as long your flight attitude is as you like, and then center the joystick.
And of course at first better to separate pedals trimmer to avoid working with two, just hold pedals at first as needed, concentrate to learn joystick. Then later add pedals if needed.
I agree. How is this different than the black shark? Do people have a problem with that too? For me personally I also find the center stick mode to work perfectly as you dont have to react immediately and can take your time to center the controls and make control adjustments from there. Stablize, trim, center controls, profit. This is better than this mode imo which is similar to how the black shark worked which I still didnt really have a problem with.
It’s not a question of “which is better”. I don’t cate who uses what. As long as it works for you it’s perfect.
I used this method too and found it reliable. The method in the video seems unrealistic, a huge constrai n and a waste of time. Ain´t nobody got time for that during combat :D
Same here. Used to it from Black Shark. It just depends, on what ppl like more.
One thing I have noticed with this whole release and people lost by trimmer are typically people not used to it. Center trimmer mode is not necessarily the devil but is if you are not used to centering all your axis after trimming. As the game will stop recording inputs until all control axis are recenterd. That style of trimming has been ground into me from many hours of ka50 as the way that trimmer works is you are seguesting where you want your auto piolets to fly to and the chopper does the rest.
Thanks so much Casmo - It helps sooooo much to be able to see how to do it properly instead of guessing where and how! That has helped me a real lot! Thanks mate.
Gotta admit, the trim switch was my favorite button in the back seat
ED have announced that there will be a trim reset added to the controls.
Y E S! makes things easier ... for me. 😁
Smart. I did the same thing as you when I'm building speed, but when I'm transitioning from flight to hover, I'm so nervous and focused on compensating the upcoming change in dynamics that I always just forget to retrim as I go, which makes for a really wild ride. I need to get gud.
Ah yeah center trim. You have to center your stick again before you can adjust it. The benefit of center trim is that it will allow you to enter trim at current stick position, without re-stacking your after-trim input on top of the new trim setting.
With instant trim, you can trim again without centering, but your stick inputs will be immediately be added on top of your new trim, giving you a 2x input. For instance, if you set your stick to Y+.50 and hit trim and leave your stick, the trim will go to Y+.50 but the game will instantly add whatever value your stick is at on top of it. If your stick is still pressed at Y+.50 when you do this, you will be at Y+1.00. This is why with instant you MUST use small inputs.
Instant trim will ignore re-centering, center trim requires you to center the stick.
iinstant Trim for Cyclick and central position trimnmer for the pedals works best for me.
So glad they have the option separately for each input.
I do it with Central trimmer on the cyclic and No FFB on Torque pedals
With central trimming on The pedals it just feels weird ..And I like The manual control
Good vid 👍👍
Got me with the title, man.
Good job.
Thank you very much for this very insightful video. That was just what I was looking for.
Glad it helps.
You can trim in a hover no problem. It's actually easier to hover with trim if you know how.
Well he is a real apache pilot...sooooo I think he has a grasp
@@Lucifer-qt9gh he has, but I can do it . Everybody has different styles. If you know when and where to trim you can get a very stable hover almost no wobbling.
I still want my “auto hovering” button :)
Thank you for this. I had the trim setup to central mode and it gets outa control so fast. I am having way more success with the FFB term setting.
Curious why you didn't turn off the Rudder Trim in settings (option 3 the "no spring" option)? With rudder trim turned off, it's a much nicer compromise, and you can trim for hover or at any time really. The older helicopter modules all had a rudder trim tickbox in special settings and most people had it turned off, only in the apache it's not there but option 3 seems to be close enough.
did the same and works perfect for me. I also removed the spring on my rudderpedals. Now it's so easy to fly
Nice video! Might give the FFB trim mode a try but what works for me best is central trim on the cyclic and no trim for the rudder pedals since I'm used to fly that way in the Mi-8 and Mi-24 anyway. Rudder trim is what killed me most because when I trim I don't think about the rudder input (Mi-8/24) and then crazy things happen oO
Center trim isn’t the devil. It keeps the control input from instantly being doubled when you hit force trim. Instead, they are set to current position and your inputs are inactive until you go to center. It works really well one you get in the habit of letting the stick settle back after trimming.
I honestly don’t care what anyone does. As long as it works for you, do it.
@@CasmoTV enjoyed your vids immensely and appreciate the effort you’ve put in to this module and know the effort that goes in to these vids. I didn’t mean to criticize this one in any way, central trimming just seems to be very misunderstood. That’s all I was trying to say.
Its ok, until u try do very little trim adjustments and it wont apply those correction until u kick pedals... I hate this.
@@TylerPL Yeah, it may vary based on the resolution or quality of the pedals and other gear. Mine center really well so haven’t really had an issue like that. And some remove the springs altogether which would make it less convenient.
So what exactly is the difference between the default setting and the ffb? This (like so many other things) is not explained well enough in-game..
With the hydrolic mod on the MFG crosswind and ffb mode on both this is a joy to fly, rudder is basicaly never trimmed since my pedal physicaly stay where I put them so I just have to worry about the collective. If you guys have the chance to get pedals with some hydrolics you should go for it, it is amazing for helicopters
Can say that also. Love flying with the damper.
And thx cas for sharing your knowlage with us. Very good instructor 😁
First off: Thank you for all your videos! And a question: What are your curve settings for the Gunfighter/MCG Ultimate combo? (if any) I'm still struggling to find the sweet spot and I don't know if I am fighting my glaring incompetence flying choppers or the the overly sensitive controls.
I will be glad if there will be option for not trimm pedals at all.
Completely off subject, but does anyone ever use the glare shield extension and side curtains?
Umm.. I will now!
They are replicated in the sim, but I don’t think they are operational. I’m curious whether they are being used in the actual aircraft.
I dunno... If you ask me, I think the trim system is quite easy to understand.
Could you do a video on the attitude hold autopilot? Wags talked briefly about what it does, but I can't get it to do anything useful for me. A video on how to use it properly and in which situations it is actually usefull would be nice.
Don't know you thoughts casmo; I have taken the springs out of my pedals and removed pedal trim; it's much better; but for cyclic; I wish we had the 4 way attitude trim switch going kinda like fixed wing trim. I fly 212/412s so I'm used to 'real' force trim and I just don't think there's a way DCS can ever get this 'right'. I much prefer a very loose spring and being able to 'beep' the cyclic forward to unload in the cruise would be much better than any sudden cyclic moves because in VR it's really hard to keep track of where your at and for me; it's the one thing that just just breaks the realism/feel for me. And hitting the cyclic stops still messes up my seat almost everytime. If we can do 'real' I would much rather control. I think being able to hold fwd on the hat and just bring it back on the spring keeping it all smooth would be a much neater compromise.
You still have springs in your pedals? Why not disable trimmer yaw?
I'm thinking of chucking the hydraulic cart on the 412 and demo-ing the real system to help people understand if you want.
With your gunfighter, which spring/cams are you running, I have the 10cm extension and it doesn't like sitting centered with the stock springs.
At first the instant trim was horrible but just like anything with DCS, if you play with it enough you get used to it. I've seen a lot of people saying that someone should make an apache collective (that isn't 900 bucks lmao) but I want a Force Feed Back stick with an extension. I know that's a big ticket to fill because of the torque and all that, but god that would be awesome.
i have the brunner cls_e ffb base with virpils 200mm s curve extension and a virpil mongoost50cm2 stick on top just for force trimming choppers. the ffb effects in like the f-14 are mearly a bonus for me. its more than 900 dollars though but for me completely worth it.
Trimming is not my big problem. My big problem is that dcs lost some buttons on the throttle stick on my x55 i dont know why.in mfs 2020 works all fine. Other question how reset the trimming?
I’ve never flown a helicopter with pedal trim. This looks like it’s going to take some new muscle memory.
The Mi-8, Mi-24 and KA-50 has pedal trims.
Those doesn't work with trim button, but separately. The pedals has solenoid to detect pressure to pedal and that triggers mechanical pedal movement. You can disable the pedals trim functions, but at that moment they become completely loose.
So having pedals trimmer linked to trimmer button in cyclic is counter productive in those helicopters.
Here is how those trimmer works. ua-cam.com/video/2kC3tWzwD_A/v-deo.html
When you have trimmed to heading, altitude and speed/roll angle, the autopilot channel gets Xx percentage authority to move your controls from trimmed position to maintain those values.
Example in KA-50 it is 20% from trimmed position, if autopilot requires to move controls more than that, it can't as it is limited. And you can see how much autopilot has authority in each channel by looking those small windows with white line aligned with two white strips. When aligned, there is full authority to all directions. When edge of the window, the autopilot can't move controls further to maintain that channel.
A question: I am a fixed wing guy, currently using a Virpil Ace Pedal. Should I remove the spring from the pedal because if I understand well in helis the rudder pedals do not want to return to zero position all the time unlike the fixed wing aircrafts.
Personally I over control in Hover Mode Symbology. It’s very sensitive. People on DCS might be doing that. Maybe try keeping it on Transition Mode.
It's just a symbology. If you're overcorrecting you're doing something wrong. Pro tip, focus on putting the circle in the middle, and don't stress the velocity vector itself.
He actually flies apaches, doe…
@@CasmoTV gotta admire his attempt to help tho
I much prefer central mode!
I brand thee heretic!
So in the real deal, do the torque pedals get trimmed as well or do they just automatically stay in position? I've never swung anti torque pedals in an actual helicopter before so I don't know.
There is an automatic heading hold so you don’t have to use the pedals as much.
@@CasmoTV Do you know if this is this planned for the in game module Casmo ??
So under control options you have trim UP/DOWN/LEFT/RIGHT but it seems that DOWN is the only one that sets the trim, the other directions don't do anything, is this normal?
Those are hold modes and hold release.
@@CasmoTV looks like I'm gonna have to get my head in the manual and see what those modes are. Thank you
@@CasmoTV btw, do you think modifying the trimmer to mimic a regular trimming system (like the Huey one for example) is a viable option for ED? Or would that just be wrong?
@@boggy8557 the huey only has force trim doesnt it? the apache has it also but some autoassists to go with it just like for instance the black shark.
Any ideas why my FPS is horribly low when flying the apache?
It’s got a lot going on to render
Casmo, I use the second option in DCS and is easy for me with my joystick setup. The question I have is when you come in to land in the real ah-64 are you still slightly trimmed or do you zero it out beforehand in the approach? Kinda like in an airliner single engine you take out some rudder trim so when you decrease throttle on the good engine it doesn’t swing the other way on you in the flare. Also after you shutdown the helicopter does it automatically center the stick and rudder or is the previous inputs saved and you have to zero out the flight controls on the preflight? After landing the only thing nice in DCS would be a zero trim reset to get to a quick baseline without having to eyeball it in VR.
Good info thanks for the vid
Great vid as always! I noticed that the Apache develops a lot of roll instability at high speeds (130 kts or more). I was wondering if this is how the real bird performed or it’s just a bug. I know about retreating blade stall but that usually rolls you only to one side whereas the Apache seems to roll back and forth at high speeds.
Again Thank You for all your videos and help!!!
The roll to left at 120-130 knots is known bug. There is bug report that Bignewy closed, but confirmed to cause that rolling at high speed.
The D wasn’t a race horse either.
@@CasmoTV Haha very true…. I’ll try to keep it under 125 kts lol
@@paristo Thanks! Good to know that it’s a bug
Indeed the D is quite a cumbersome beast. Fly at 120kts, Army pilots do this because it makes the maths easier.....(finger counting is far better than whipping out your E6B flight computer 😂)
I'm curious if the Apache is really this prone to VRS in real life. Seems to have very weak power to weight ratio atm compared to say the Blackshark. But the real black shark has a gross Weight to Power ratio of 2.7, meanwhile the the Apache D has a gross Weight to Power ratio of 2.8. So the Apache should be just as easy to throw around as the blackshark, but it really isn't. The Apache can gimbal really quickly, but oddly the much more massive KA-50 can change direction and elevation much easier.
It doesn't get in the VRS as easily, because people often suffer from power automatic adjustment that takes few seconds to keep up with dropping rotor RPM. So quick adjustments cause loss of lift and there isn't enough time for engine to stabilize RPM.
Smooth, slow controls helps to avoid all that.
The KA-50 is capable for ridiculous 60 meters per second climb rate. This was presented 2003 in Chechenya at mountains when test pilot was required to make evasive maneuver and pulled collective and KA-50 instantly went full vertical climb saving the pilot life at that time (he was the general, leading the KA-50 helicopter project in Russian army side, most advocate promoter for Kamov).
@@paristo I agree adding a strong curve to the Apache collective helps avoid settling with power, but my point was that while both choppers can get into this state, the KA-50 can easily power out of it or move forward easily to get out of the column of descending air. This early version of the DCS Apache can do neither in a lot of cases and if it attempts to pull the collective, it gets even more unsettled, causing it to lose even more lift. Given the moves I’ve seen in Apache air shows, it seems to handle itself with a lot more authority, power, and stability in real life. Eagle Dynamics almost always gets the fight model pinned down to a precise level eventually. Helicopter physics is a lot more challenging than jets aerodynamics or even prop planes, since they are relatively 2 dimensional by comparison, so I can see this is definitely more of a challenge to nail down. The KA-50 flight model is a lot older, but that also means it’s a lot more mature, and tbf uses different physics than a single main rotor chopper which also has an under the hood FMC that complicates matters even further.
@@ziljanvega3879 In my first two flights in Apache I got caught with the power delays. In the first one I dipped half way in the water, but managed to get out.
My mistake was to fly it like Huey or like Black Shark. Huey just like so agile and light to react, and black shark as power and authority.
I realized after the two close calls that I was late few seconds what I wanted to do. And I was slightly dazzled that I had forgotten that how much you need to predict behavior before it really happens.
So I took it for wild ride to adapt to that. After few crashes in next hour, I got good handling to it. Flying at high speed over road both sides having trees and coming to 90 degree turns and all was possible. Jumping up and down over treelines like a bunny was easy. Going full Apache mode, flying under telephone lines and going between trees just getting rotor fitting between them, and going flying under trees became fun.
The key? Think 2-5 second ahead of your actions depending what you try to do, and trust that machine will perform.
I don't apply any curves to any helicopter controls. Because I have extension etc, so I can maintain great precision all the time.
But as long did I stare that display about torque and and question each time "Low RPM" warning, I didn't trust myself.
Apache doesn't have the performance that Black Shark has, but at low speeds you have great pedals authority to change turn directions quickly.
But your collective is limited and you are in trouble if you pump it too fast, too often, same with pedals.
Get ahead of yourself, and use the force to think where you are those few seconds ahead and go by the experience that Apache will follow you there.
The forums were mentioning a heading hold that, when the trim is hit below 40kts or so, it will work to hold the heading. Any insight into that?
It’s not implemented yet
@@CasmoTV thanks
@@CasmoTV What about the automatic turn coordination, is that working as intended?
The video is 5 seconds too short.
Having that old piece of kit rocks. And disabling the trim on pedals (that "without springs" mode) rolls.
I would be fun to fly with you casmo 🙂
Could you tell us what rudder pedals you use ?
VKB. my set up is in the video notes.
Didn’t see that, thanks
Nooo worries.
How do you auto hover
You don’t
@@CasmoTV o i though there was auto hover like the The gazelle
@@shawnholman1815 nah the hold modes will act that way but they aren’t implemented yet
How i deal with it: I don't use it
No, the purpose of trimming an aircraft is not "to keep that control surface where you want it". It is to keep the control stick and pedals centered, while the aircraft maintains coordinated flight. Flettner Tabs or servo tabs are used to do this.
EG
- You wish to fly heading 90° - ground track.
- There is wind coming from 0°.
To maintain flight along 90° ground track, you must push the right rudder pedal, constantly the same offset. This is strenuous on the pilot over time.
So the pilot moves the trim tab on the rudder into the wind-flow on the right side, which forces the rudder control surface toward the left. Now the neutral position of the rudder is slightly to the left while the rudder pedals are centered, which makes for a relaxed flight along the wished ground track.
The Apache emulates this same behavior, by letting the pilot reset where the neutral position of cyclic and pedals are (where there is no force required to hold them motionless). So the pilot puts the cyclic and pedals into the positions where the Apache is flying along the path wished, and in the attitude wished, and initiates force trim, which locks main and anti-torque rotors setting, allowing the pilot to return the stick and pedals to their centered positions, where main and anti-torque rotors are now locked to the cyclic and pedals in their now centered positions. This is visualized on the controls indicator through the red "X"es.
… which actually keeps the control surfaces where you want that. Don’t argue semantics with me.
@@CasmoTV It's not semantics. Its a question of focusing your viewers attention on the purpose of trimming, which IMHO makes it much easier for them to understand.
That is just my perspective. I know it's not your, and that's okay. I only wanted to maybe help out a little, not to make a an aggravating attack. I'm sorry if I've made you feel attacked. That was not my intention.
@@DerOrso you are mixing real behavior with simulated behavior because most people dont own ffb peripherals which mimic actual behavior. the simulated behavior is not depictive of the actual trimming but its the next best thing when you dont have ffb or a springless dryclutch stick.
@@kingpinda2 You're probably right. My point is, there is a purpose to trimming, and it is to make flying easier on the pilot.
@@DerOrso yes but you are using wrong examples. In most modern, fly by wire, planes, only the control surfaces or the tabs change their orientation. In choppers, the rudder and cyclic aren’t centered when trimmed but they are re-centered offset effectively changing the orientation of the control surfaces. You are switching from real life mechanics to simulated workings which really doesn’t help explain what you mean. Ofcourse they are meant to make the life of the pilot easier. It changes how the control surfaces are orientated while offloading force on the flight controls. In some more analog planes the stick moves when trimming. It doesn’t center. It has a new center yes. Off-center. State of the art planes which are usually very unstable by themselves trim automatically and even depending on the flight parameters will mix in elevator next to the airelon when just rolling. Anyway there are alot of different ways planes and choppers trim. But they are all there to make life easier no matter if the flight instruments stay centered like modern planes or are offset in choppers and older planes but they all change the way the control surfaces and or their tabs are orientated. Which is the most important bit.
I just don't see the point. I'd rather just hold the joystick where its at. Not alot of effort
To each there own.
it depends on how stiff your springs are i guess, i know with mine i have very heavy springs in so holding it forward for an hour or two plus flight would cause a mean cramp
True, I have a large extension so that might help
@@CasmoTV sorry, their
@@ericcraft9856… do you feel better now?
Thank you for another fantastic video. They’re absolutely invaluable and are helping me enjoy the Apache more and more with every flight. Am I right in thinking that a motion simulator would help a lot so you can feel the inertia and moment around the rotor mast? I have a jetseat and am sorting out a buttkicker to try and give some feedback through the seat so I hope that helps
Interesting method.. But we need a trim reset function above anything...
Side note: left cntr + left shift + esc will remove that SRS message. sometimes you have to do it more then once.
I know. I’m just lazy.
Very good video that should definitely answer most questions. Thanks a lot, it's very much appreciated. Hoping they'll implement the hold modes soon™
Hope indeed. Would make things a lot easier at times.
Yeah, the trim setting in the special setting really depends on how the person prefers it. The Gazelle has a hard twist to it when taking off and hovering. But once you get it going, it will hold straight with no rudder or torque input. But, each of the DCS choppers all work a bit differently. Casmo, keep up with the great videos. It is great that you give credit to others for their work.
The gazelle has very odd flight modeling. It is like designed for centering joystick that your attitude doesn't move when you have joystick at center.
ua-cam.com/video/P3wlmsJgPR8/v-deo.html
That is flown just with a keyboard, only utilizing one control at the time, and only collective at first and after that just pedals when in air.
Cyclic is not touched at all at any given moment (if you do, you basically die because you can't center quickly the cyclic with keyboard arrow keys, and any input is constantly adding degree/second so you will quickly flip over.
In that video the trim system is disabled, and is that another a autopilot or something. So Gazelle should be completely on-hands without any assistance helping to fly.
Yeah, my issues were right at take-off and coming back to a hover. Once, I finally got a good set of axis tuning all my issues when away. I never spent much time in the past flying helicopters. But I got back into them several years ago. Once I found the video that was with a gazelle pilot , he went in detail about the axis tuning in DCS for the Gazelle. Then everything changed for me flying it. So, after some research and some settings adjustments. I was all good.
@@CueDriver You can get Gazelle easy to fly, but it still doesn't fly realistic manner at all. If the purpose is to just get Gazelle fly around battlefield and have fun, then it is possible even without any controls adjustments (far more challenging if you have short joystick and throttle as collective, easier if you have extended and collective with pedals). But again it doesn't fly like real Gazelle does.
The major problem with Gazelle is that you need to forget everything how real helicopters work to fly Gazelle. And then after flying Gazelle, you need to forget everything how Gazelle flies to fly other helicopters.
To fly gazelle zig-zagging between trees on the roads, under bridges, under trees even etc, you don't need to use pedals or collective, just cyclic is enough. Just get the mindset "I am flying a airplane" and you are golden.
That is why I don't fly Gazelle anymore because you die first when you try to fly it like a helicopter. And then you can't switch to other helos as you die in those as you try to fly them like Gazelle. The Viviane targeting system is as well unrealistic, it has magical INS and ground locking, while it should only have a weaker gyroscope, very low resolution FLIR and anyways behave less effectively but similarly as the Raduga sight in Mi-24P, so gunner needs to compensate for any Gazelle movement in pitch and yaw.
There is no weapons recoil at all, making Gazelle very easy to engage targets and accurately.
I ended up when I realized that I was flying constantly from left seat, and then I just used Viviane to target threats and shoot them from the move while flying around them. It was easy to do both simultanously.
@paristo yep, she is my fun flying chopper. When things are more serious I grab the heavier ones.
For those of us fortunate enough to have a force feedback stick, I recommend that you do not use any curves in the axis tuning. The stick will become more sensitive in the X and/or Y axis once trimmed out of the center position.
except if you use hardware trim. with brunner cls2sim software i set up force trim via the brunner software so i can recenter my stick even out of game. in dcs i just set it up as springless stick and change the pitch curve so it maxes out faster when pitching down. that way with my 200mm extension i dont have to hang forward. alot of planes also have less deflection in the pitch down range so now i use that as well in choppers.
I'm so glad I picked up the Huey half a year ago in preparation for the Apache :)
I've been doing this click the trim method to decelerate and transition to hover. This helped me a lot. Got a question. You mentioned that it's a bad idea to trim while in hover and that you're simply just fighting your trim to get into a stable hover. Now that att and alt holds are implemented. Will this technique still work ? I find that if I activate those two while doing the fighting. I still need to apply cyclic pressure to remain in place. Not the hands free that Wags showed when he featured the hold modes. How do I mix this technique with the application of att and alt holds ?
There seems to be a philosophical difference between sim-only pilots and pilots with IRL experience when it comes to trim. Sim-only pilots seem to be more tolerant of holding quite large stick deflections for moderate amounts of time and using trim as a "cruise control" only. For that use case, the center position trim is probably a bit more natural. IRL pilots, on the other hand, are constantly adjusting trim through nearly all phases of flight, so the instant trim approach here is going to be more natural for them.
Definitely helped out. Between your vid and Redkite’s, i think I got it.
Glad to hear it helped.
Thank you Casmo.
I personally fly with Central Trimmer mode and a VERY lightly sprung stick, only trimming really for cruise.
It's nice to see your points for FFB mode tho.
Great Video..... Rex
The FFB setting is absolutely the way to go for DCS regardless of the stick you have. I had a shit ton of issues with central position, especially with anti-torque pedals on there as well, I dont trim out the pedals anymore.
Non-Centering/springless mode user here. You don't use any other trimmer mode with it. Only difference to real thing, is lack of centering to trimmed position. But you use trim, because that trim button while can't move your joystick or require you to move it, will program the autopilot/ hold channels to have the authority virtually maintain the attitude you trimmed to.
FF isn't required, just remove the spring and get extension to have great free moving cyclic. It makes flying so easy. And then can be added by various means a method to hold joystick where wanted so you can take your hands off.
Great video. I also like, how this module sort of getting sim youTubers together into coop. Awesome.
Good Bad or whatever. I never use Trim. I use Auto Pilot Forward flight only. I only hoover manually
Why, Why is there NO trim reset button? We have center spring cyclic's for most players. (I believe it would save v-pilot lives being able to dump an exaggerated trim) I dont care if it is not in the Apache as the Apache also does not have my center spring'd virpil cyclic. I need the show controls because I dont an actual maglock'd cyclic to know it is not centered for decel and decent. I may try to play without having trim have effect on the anti-torq to see if that feels better. Half the issue is we are trimming out pedals and we dont do that in other helos. Well for myself, I dont trim rudders in MI8-MI24-Gaz or Huey pedals. Maybe this forces me to get the new virpil pedals :)
Without a trim reset a n d without trim-display you don't know about actual status of trimming, so i'm glad about we get a trim-reset-button with next patch....😊
So you can start trimming from ZERO ! if you want (without trim-display on)...
I'm looking at these trim videos, and wondering how is this different from the Huey? Trimming is very important for those abominations called helicopters, and the Huey is no different. I'd find the stick position that gave me what I wanted, click the trim and return my stick to neutral. Maybe refine it a bit and re-trim.
ED could fix the pain of central position trimmer mode if they put a timeout on the controls lockout. In other words, if you haven't managed to recenter your controls within 1.5 seconds (or some time of your choosing), the trim kicks in anyway and control is restored.
Or they could give us Default trim back, which is on other helicopters. It worked like "Instant" trim except it locked your controls out for a fraction of a second and gave you a chance to neutralize them before it kicked in. (This would not be very different in practice from putting a very short timeout on the central position trimmer mode.)
How did you get the female threat searching aural warning I wasn’t sure the RLWR system was fully implemented and I can’t find any control to enable it .. thanks for the informative video!
I use an Cyclic that stays were you put it (Komodo Kiowa system) that being said I don't see a trim button per-say. I only see the trim for a 4 way hat L/R/U/D so how do I trim
Whatchoo talkin bout Willis! Center mode trim 4lyfe! 😝
Do not "INSTAN TRIM" if you have cam/spring , just do "center trim" is right
so the real Apache has no trim reset 🤔
No reason to. Never heard of an aircraft that did.
@@CasmoTV 👌
Actually, I think that your video was easier to grasp than Redkite's
What to do with the torque pedals has bothered me for years lol
Brilliant explanation, thanks.
Thank you
What are you axis settings for the stick and pedals? Or do you not mess with those.
All UA-camrs making Apache videos must have at least one video about the force trim ;)
If there is a customer complaint about a topic; we will be there.
@@CasmoTV hehe thank you Casmo! I follow all your videos and value your expertise. I looked up the Brunner cls force feedback base. It looks fantastic but it’s like $2000 AUD :(
God damn.. I don't think ANYBODY can be as good at this as Casmo. Makes sense though, I mean... Y'know, it just makes sense :)
🤘🏻
Fix wing nerds... absolutely!!!! lol
That Navy work out music at the end tho.
doing this in MI 24 is death sentence lol