Understanding the difference between healthy shame and toxic shame. Interview with Seth Lyon
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- Опубліковано 2 сер 2024
- Shame can be a spicy topic to talk about and get to know. Especially if we were abused with a lot of toxic shame growing up.
I started to learn about the complexities of shame when I was in the higher levels of Somatic Experiencing (SE) training, and also through my studies with Kathy Kain and Steve Terrell. Then I got more direct experience around toxic shame and the by-products of it when I met my husband and colleague, Seth Lyon.
The thing with shame is that we only know what we grew up with, and this guest interview with my husband, Seth, outlines the polar opposites of our childhood and how one of us got the healthy kind and the other one got the toxic kind.
Have a watch.
Here are some Questions/Topics I discuss in this chat:
0:00 - Over functioning
4:20 - Healthy Shame example
6:55 - Toxic Shame example
9:48 - Healthy Shame with a baby (video)
14:47 - All shame is not bad
15:07 - Difference between shame and guilt
16:31 - Parenting when had toxic shame as a kid
17:57 - Over functioning as a parent
20:04 - Advice for working with your toxic shame before having kids
24:10 - Caregivers not in alignment & effect on children
25:39 - Doing too much for children
28:38 - Having teens and realizing you may have messed up when they were younger
30:26 - Difference between crying for connection and because of healthy shame
32:05 - Working on yourself as an adult can benefit your grown child(ren)
34:59 - How do I heal myself?
39:47 - Why don’t my children listen the first time?
41:12 - One tip to start
42:26 - Movement and healing trauma
Resources I mention during this video:
► Peter Levine and his work
www.somaticexperiencing.com/
► Kathy Kain and her work
somaticpractice.net/
► Power Pose - Amy Cuddy’s Ted Talk (how our somatic gestures can shift how we feel) • Your body language may...
► Disgust - The Gateway Emotion for Healing Toxic Shame
irenelyon.com/2019/10/25/disg...
► Special Topic Lecture on Shame - The toxic kind. The healthy kind.
• Special Topic Lecture:...
► How toxic shame creates the fallout we call depression
irenelyon.com/2017/09/14/toxi...
► How to find a good somatic practitioner
irenelyon.com/2019/11/14/how-...
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Thank you for being here!
1. Leave a comment and let me know how this video impacted you. Feel free to leave a question (my team answers them each week!)
2. To get more nervous system health resources, plus learn more about me and my credentials, plus the many ways you can work with me at the practical level, head to my website: irenelyon.com
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Facebook: / lyonirene
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4. GOT QUESTIONS? Send an email to: support@irenelyon.com
Please know that...
The statements on this UA-cam channel or in videos are simply opinion. Content presented or posted on this channel is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment or a professional therapeutic relationship. Content presented or posted is intended to provide general health information for educational purposes only and you should contact the appropriate healthcare professional before relying on any such information.
My website is a wealth of information, free resources, and information on how to start this work, so here it is one more time: irenelyon.com
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I love it when the babies have the cheeky smile & try again when you say no. It's hard to keep a serious face because their cheekiness amuses you. The joy before the shame.
What came up for me, it's not just how the parent says that no, it's also the childs inherent temperament. I would have cried in that grandfather example too, and I would have cried in Irene's example with the knife. The moment I heard any type of no I would have cried, probably because I was so sensitive and still am today, and perhaps it hits me deeper than other kids. There's a fine line here, but I'm theorizing if I was Irene's brother also cutting bread the wrong way, Irene seems like she had a fast and easy correction, it seems like she knew instinctively and immediately not to internalize and that it was just about her behavior, but I would have cried and I definitely would have needed a hug, I would have internalized any no as me being a bad person, I did that all the time when I was younger and even with the self-awareness I still catch myself sometimes today. I think the truth is some kids are just more sensitive than others, so some have a higher need for attunement than others. We didn't even finish seeing the end of the grandfather video, perhaps he did in the end did get up and hug her.
I just wanted to write this because for a while I hated my mom because I felt like she wasn't as attuned to me as I needed. But I realized her attunement level was actually perfect for a less sensitive kid, she really wasn't abusive, just slightly misatuned, on the grand scale of parenting she did quite good, it's just that for my connection needs as a kid I needed her to not be just good, I needed her to be spotless in the area of attunement and she wasn't so I feel hurt. It's easy to blame her and I did for a while but trying to see it from a third person's view I understand what happened, I don't fault her anymore even if I'm still hurt.
It makes me wonder what other needs kids have where they need their parents to be spotless in this area but the parent was just good, but that wasn't good enough for them so they internalize it and are now walking around wounded. It could be something none of us ever thought about, or even they recognize consciously.
I totally relate to your experience as being very sensitive to any kinds of "no''s". I think I am the same. This is why I have been so scared to say no to my daughter. I just didn't want to traumatize her. Now I make sure that I connect to her with a hug or any kind of gentle reassurance after I have been firm. And I agree that some children are I able to tolerate the firmness differently. Atunment is definitely very important. Thank you for sharing your experience! I feel heard and seen.🙂
Best thing I ever heard...a therapy fund vs a college fund. But with the right therapists. The world needs more like you both and Gabor and Bessel and Paul Chek and the like. ❤️
overfunctioning: in my experience it´s not about doing everything for the kid (although it might look like that from the outside and from a rational perspective) but it´s more about keeping up a certain kind of identity of the caregiver as "the good one", an image to be projected on the outside and as a protective wall towards oneself.
As for me, I relate to Seth in that trying to discipline and teach my kids feels like moving a boulder uphill, so it’s so much easier to just do things for them.
@@Eclectifying Easier in the short term, sure... I get that. Long term.....this is a debilitating strategy for all involved.
I was very intrigued when I read your email and saw that there is such a thing as healthy shame. Thank you so much for clarifying this for me. I myself have been dealing with toxic shame and the same as Seth I wanted to do everything to avoid being firm and set boundaries. I wanted to be the gentle parent. It was driving my husband crazy, because he could not understand why I was so afraid to be firm. For me the lightbulb moment came when I understood that I can be firm and stay connected to my daughter at the same time. This for me was the missing piece. So I started setting boundaries without fear of losing connection with my daughter. Now I know that I can empathise with her when she doesn't want to do something and still remain firm that it has to be done. We now feel more peaceful and connected as a family.
I can't wait to watch this video. I was raised with toxic shame. The long-term effects have been devastating.
😘.
And thanks for yoga explaining because it caused panic in my case. I thought that something is wrong with me because I dont work it good or something along, but then I searched internet and found one of Irenes video and it all made clear to me.
I so appreciate how you both use the stories of your childhood to help teach others about the differences that shame can manifest in family of origin. I'm grateful for how transparent you both are. ❤
What a great conversation! I grew up in a toxic shame kinda "old school" paradigm in the South, and now am teaching k-5 on the West coast where I see a lot of kids whose parents opt for no-shame. This gives me so much more context for the extremes of the spectrum I've witnessed, both ineffective. Thank you!
Thank you for that video! I always love Seths Notes on his personal experiences. It helps me so much to understand my family dynamics which can be so difficult. I would love to see more know-how around handling family members und toxic systems.
I truly wish I had known these before having a child but it was having the child that brought up a lot of unresolved things to the surface so I started working on it.
Yay, an interview with Seth! 😊🧡
This is great. Thank you to Seth too especially for the men that this isn't just women's work.
There’s so much good information, thank you for sharing!
I can SO relate to Seth as a parent! I experienced toxic shame from my father and my mother lacked the ability to discipline us, so it is a huge struggle to discipline my children with healthy discipline.
Thank you both ❤
Thank u so much for telling people to do the nervous system work before they get kids 💜 I grew up with my sister suffering of a very tyrannical monster mom (she probably could had been classified as a true narcissist). I ve been a complete mess all my life. So has my sister. Im so grateful i never even thought of having kids (because of many many reasons), but i was always terrified when my sis talked about wanting to have kids. I always thought she was PHYSICALLY too sick to make a healthy baby.. but now i understand the bigger part of the problem is the traumatised nervous system.
Irene, I have been binge watching your videos daily. Of what I personally also call getting trauma informed. It's SO interesting that I have reached a point in my life that I felt I have do a lot of work over the last several yrs very intentional & consistent. Because I truly believe I can heal and change and I deserve it, like we all do. But it takes time and work. I hope this finds you because I simply want to express the gift and appreciation of you and your work! As I mentioned I reached a point where I not only felt I've done so much and something was missing but also there have been things showing up for me that made no sense. I could write a whole book. Anyway's....through my search for answers and just now getting into Polyvagal theory that I recently had started to really tap into, I came across you and your work. I have downloaded some of you free content and look to your 12 step and also SMSM. I have learned SO much from you that blows my mind. I also find it very neat that I have a background in CPT exercise science and nutrition. I still very much live for that. And because of that background I absolutely 100% see the way you express and teach about this process of the nervous system makes total sense. I went from 0 in the health and fitness world and started off very small to make improvements. it didn't make sense that I needed to make lifestyle changes and the approach would be that of what society walks. Thank you SO much! I see you as my mentor. I would love to one day be able to educate and help others the same way I am doing the work already even before I jump into your courses. I have a lot of pre verbal, early trauma as well as a mix of other complex trauma that's basically left my nervous system fried, high anxiety that I have alway's had that I didn't understand the intensity increase in a time of my life that made no sense. But you really have a gift for teaching! Can't thank you enough! ❤
Vanessa Delgado, it's great to hear that Irene's teaching resonates do deeply with you and has been so helpful! It sound like it's a great fit for you given your background and experience. - Jen from Team Lyon
Great topic and a wonderful dialogue between you.
Many people don't know this.
I'd like to add: It is important for the kid to be able to reflect on the situation. To be given the space to do that good thing by their own choice. Not being controlled like a robot. Not doing it reactive to avoid shaming or punishment. And to be able to think "i did this, and my parents see me doing it, and they are happy. I am good".
Thank you 🙏🏻 ❤
Hello, I loved to see you both together. I like seeing Irene's cheekier side 😛
I wonder if... Let me rephrase, I would have found it judgemental if, with my husband or anyone, we were always talking about how your parents got it all right and mine got it all wrong. Like I'm the broken one and you're just all right...
I wouldn't have found it judgmental myself if i was with a person whose parents got it (mostly) all right and had needed validation of how wrong my parents got it and how it's not my fault at all it's all harder for me and i would just feel so lucky to have the influence of the person with such a solid foundation.
Hey Steffy, Seth here. Nope, didn't find it judgmental at all, as I already knew how much my parents screwed me up! Also, Irene's parents did not get it all right. They didn't do the toxic shame thing at all, but here were some other issues. All in all though, it's just a fact that Irene received WAY better parenting than me.
lovely people real and healthy looking for spirit and healing that works !
The playout of toxic shame is so devastating in my life because it drives me to a lot of descision when I will be shamed again. A visious cycle. And I dont need to have any parent it is all imprinted in my inner critic voice. And also my posture is so bad. Im a single parent and I affevt my child so much. I attend SBSM, and I have resistance to all of it. I try to find my center and identity. I suffer BPD, and I dont know where to start to find my center. Like the question Who I am is without answer. Can you explain a little where to start from somatic work perspective? Thank you Irene and Seth.
Hi bebaaskaful, Jen here from Team Lyon. Toxic shame can be quite powerful, and it's also changeable. Taking steps to grow an inner sense of safety and connection are important steps in this change process, as is accessing healthy aggression when it's available.
SBSM offers learning and practices to help with these areas. I heard you when you said that you have resistance to all of it. Have you thought about starting with the 21 Day Nervous System Tune Up? As an SBSM member, you have access to it and as it's much shorter than SBSM, it can sometimes be more accessible as a way to start. There are also Team Lyon members in there answering questions year round.
Another option is to pick one practice - such as the kidney/adrenal practices from SBSM - and see what happens if you do that one practice (or part of it) as a daily practice. The steps you take - even the smallest one - can often add up over time. And sometimes doing a few sessions with a trained nervous system practitioner can be a helpful complement to these programs.
I'll also link to a related video of Irene's in case you'd like to check it out.
On Healing Toxic Shame - irenelyon.com/2019/07/15/on-healing-toxic-shame/
Hm just a thought as that resonated deeply with me from before -you might want to watch the youtube channel how to adhd as well as look up Tony Attwood on youtube for autism ( which btw is a spektrum) and see what resonates . It’s not uncommon for BPD to either be misdiagnosed or be I guess the word would be something like triggered by underlying neuropsychiatric stuff which also means a diffrent approach is needed to get to stuff because of that some of it is how you are ie diffrently functioning ( a car and a bike is not the same) not needed shame or incentive / pressure to become other - needed good coping strategies , acceptance and realising strengths. ( Have both and would have easily been diagnosed with bpd if I’d ever told my psychiatrist at the time which I didn’t realise I had about my hyperfocus from both asd/ adhd, which can easily be interpreted as mania, if you don’t know the right questions to ask and almost always leads to very treatment resistent depression / lows because of lack of tools until you know what is going on .
Something I didnt hear you address- how can you be sure that the healthy shame you are somatically imprinting on the child doesn't get attached to their curiosity, their desire to learn, their desire to have something or do something? How do you teach a child "you are good, your curiosity is good, your instincts are good, but this ONE SPECIFIC behavior you are doing is not ok." A child doesnt have the capacity to understand that. I had an upbringing like Seth and I'm still skeptical about the "healthy shame" idea obviously. Thanks for the conversation, it was somwhat hard to hear but also helpful.
Hi Jen Niebla-Love, Jen here from Team Lyon. My sense is that the essence of the answer to your question has to do with whether the child has a good dose of nervous system regulation on board. If they do, then the way they experience themselves and the world is unlikely to be significantly altered by hearing a clear, kind "no" in response to a given behavior.
In other words, they feel in their cells and take it as a given that their curiosity and instincts are solid, welcome and needed, and the no is an independent event, a learning experience. I understand that this can be hard to grasp for those of us who have an underlying experience of "I'm bad" where the slightest no may have quite an impact!
@@teamlyon3109 I guess I really disagree with what you're saying here. Do you have experience with small children? In the scenario you are speaking of, if the child has a very regulated nervous system, I dont believe the child would even experience shame and wouldnt be crying at all. There is no way for a parent to forcefully tell a child "this is bad" without them experiencing it as "I am bad." The only way to communicate these limits and boundaries to children is without shaming language and with explanations of consequences. With babies and toddlers, it's appropriate to accommodate the environment to limit their access until they can understand. The fact that you advocate this style of parenting is concerning to me.
24:13 this was my childhood. So interesting how they say it takes a village, but the village needs to be aligned! I’m now a very anxious attached adult in my relationships
Okay so I love the background rain
Ha ha ha - I was and am one of those people who just doesn't resonate with the words "healthy shame". :-) I do understand the visceral body experience of shame, and the body posture of shame... I just don't associate the word "healthy" with my sense of those, eh. My experiences of being shamed by others rarely felt "healthy" :-) Perhaps it is "healthy" shame when I can simply sense and recognize I have done something not good... without the additional baggage of sensing along with that "and that makes me a bad person." (As you talked about, Seth.) I too think there's gotta be a better word for it, but I too have not been able to land on what that might be!! I'll keep you posted if one springs to mind....
Today's further insight that I had into this: "Healthy" is used in the term "healthy shame" to describe the result after the shame experience. It's about the end result of the event, not about the moment of shame itself. Shame itself, "in the moment" feels bad (which helps us learn "best that I don't do that again!"). If afterwards the shame passes, and it is linked simply to a particular action and some necessary boundaries related to that action, it can be "healthy". However, if there is a residual barb in me about "I did something wrong ... and now I am a bad person because of that", that is when it is NOT healthy.
The Grandfather was attuned?
This was a great discussion. I do think it's far too easy to theorize how these scenarios should play out versus how parenting actually is with high stress and constant issues and factors that can disregulate individuals in the family on any given occasion. Only parents who have had kids can fully understand that even the healthiest, least traumatized person has the capacity to screw this up a lot more often than they'd like. I still found the topic helpful. Would just like to hear/see a more realistic balance from a parent who's done this work on how often they can co-regulate with their child and probably, more importantly, what to do to repair when they inevitably screw up from time to time.
Hi Rachel, Jen here from Team Lyon. I hear you on the difference between theory and practice, especially when it comes to parenting. I haven't seen the video yet so don't know if Seth mentions the fact that he is a parent. I'll share your comment with him and see if he has anything to add here.
@@teamlyon3109 thanks so much for the reply! I appreciate that. Yes, Seth mentioned he was a parent, but it was more specifically several years ago before he did this work. I'm interested to know how a parent who is in the middle of the work or even well-practiced can/should handle the mess-ups inherent in the messy process of trial and error that parenting is. Thanks again!
Hello @ Irene how do I heal from toxic shame I am 46 I I realize I have this do you have a program for toxic shame
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
Great information. I recall another video with Seth discussing living in a community is that still available. Thank you.
Hi adriana parente, Jen here from Team Lyon. I can't remember offhand which video that is and will check with Seth and one of us will get back to you.
Hey Adriana, Seth here. It was this one.... ua-cam.com/video/zr9o3s_dBfw/v-deo.html
Thank you so much Jen. I appreciate you finding this one for me.
@@adrianaparente7452, you're most welcome! - Jen
Thank you so much for this video. Where/how can I learn about using posture to explore shame stored in my body? I know it’s there and I’ve been trying to correct my posture through all sorts of different strategies but to no avail. Thank you!
@carolafuertes, Jen here from Irene's Team. In this work, we learn to work with the underlying response and phsiolgies that influence posture.
Where trauma is in the picture, changing posture without working with the underlying response usually involves a lot of effort and the "new" posture is often not sustainable a the body has a strong tendency to more towards what feels safe and familiar.
If you're interested in engaging with this work, you might check out Irene's 21 Day Nervous System Tune Up course - 21daytuneup.com/
I'll also link to a Drop In class that relates to your question in case you want to check it out - irenelyon.com/drop-in-class/rolling-and-relaxing-the-spine/
@@IreneLyon thank you so much Jen for your response. I'm already in the 21 day NS tune up, and looking forward to applying to SBSM in September. I'll look into that drop in class you linked too. You're the best.
@@carolafuertes, you're welcome! And you might ask this on the 21 Day Tune Up course site too. That way we can point you to related practices in the course that you have access to.
Shame ruined my life really. I am working on Nervous system regulation.. But still stuck at home because of shame. And pushing myself with trauma work to the point I got exhausted.. Now i am working on calming myself but its not easy. In my mind is like :" till i will clear my traumas, and be perfect, i can do other things". Its crazy.
Hi Nastja Vovk, Jen here from Team Lyon. It takes time to transform these longstanding patterns, and it sounds like in the right place and are taking steps to create deep change. I'll link to another of Irene's resources about the link between disgust and toxic shame, and to one that talks about health aggression as learning to access and express underlying healthy aggression is often an important step in transforming patterns of toxic shame.
Disgust: The Gateway Emotion for Healing Toxic Shame - irenelyon.com/2019/10/25/disgust-the-gateway-emotion-for-healing-toxic-shame/
What is Healthy Aggression - irenelyon.com/2019/08/19/what-is-healthy-aggression/
Healthy Aggression - The Way to Un-frustrate Frustration - sethlyon.com/healthy-aggression-the-way-to-un-frustrate-frustration/
Then going by this video you need someone too shame you but self reflection to feel guilty .
Yup, that sums it up!
Great discussion. I have a somewhat complex question.. What if you are (I am) connected to a little person who lives in an environment where there is toxic shame. And the little one is already so wired to feeling they are totally bad and wrong that when you (I) try to correct her in the right manner (well - it´s not like I have healed those parts either so I´m sure I´m not perfect in that but I think I can be a little better than the people who input the toxic shame most) - that only provokes so much toxic shame that you (I) cannot even get to connection with this little one, but they flee away from connection with their shame ;( ;( ;( And it´s so hard to get back to connection since they will feel they need to change into "a good little one" before they are able to return back to connection because they feel so ashamed. This is painful to watch and I would like to offer something healthy to this little one and I don´t know how those situations should be handled. Should the people around her be very mindful of actually not making her feel that shame, since her system cannot really take it and her system does not really have any safety...?
Hi Maria Ylönen, Jen here from Team Lyon. The biggest gift we can offer little ones who are living in challenging environments (assuming we can't remove them from their situations) is that of our own regulation. When we come from a regulated place, we communicate on a cellular and nervous system level that we see them, that they are whole, okay as they are.
And if we need to say "no" in a situation, it can come from a calm, kind, clear place where we can stay with them to help them differentiate between the no to the behavior and the no to them as a person (to the best of their ability at the time).
It was too late after the big "no" to change that situation.
I feel i was born w toxic shame. Both my parents had it and put the focus on me to deflect the shame. Deep hatred and resentment til this day but empathy for their pain. I felt my first guilt when I was 3 or 4. At that age i recognized the fragility of my downward spiraling to schizophrenic mom. Parentified at that age and still suffering the results Thanks for discussing this subject. I never understood how one could not recognize healthy shame, especially now living in a very shameless society
The babies are so sensitive to energies... Frowning disapproval at a baby as young as 3 months will cause them to cry. Is it inducing feelings of shame?
Haha, you should have just been sitting together in the same room :)
Seems simple but it’s lot harder to mic and frame that. With this set-up they’ve got everything already set the way they need it.
Lol. It’s been my goal/dream since I was a teenager to do the trauma work before I have kids. I’m 37 now and still have no partner and kids because I’m still doing the trauma work. I totally agree in doing the trauma work before you have kids but you can also wait too long until everything is perfect and then miss the boat.
Hi Bernadette, Seth here with Team Lyon. A good point!!
@@IreneLyon Wow. Thanks for saying hi. I just discovered your videos a few days ago on disgust as a gate way emotion. You are right. I looked for disgust and there I found the deepest traumas I have been trying to access for the longest time. When the time is right it's right to do the work. Your videos are so helpful and actually affective/accurate. Really spot on. Thankyou for your work.
Oh...😭 The little...💔
10:00 he should have been cuddled and explained to
Re: The Video. The thing that raised a response from me is that the Grandfather did not get up and come over to the little boy and maybe pick him up or walk him away from the plant. He used his voice because he didn't feel like getting up and addressing the situation properly. What a jerk! That child was crushed. What the Grandfather needed to do was rush over to the child and apologize profusely and reassure the child. The kid was reaching and didn't understand what the Grandfather was raising his voice about. Children are in wonder at that age. They're just discovering things. It just pisses me off the the Grandfather was so lazy. One has to be a custodian of a child that age. If the Grandfather wasn't willing to make the effort, he shouldn't be looking after a child, period.
Yeah I really like your take on the grandfather and the kid. I think i don't really see that as a great example of healthy shame... It's frustrating that's the main example they gave us when it seemed like an example of hurting a kid with shame...
While i understand this point I also feel that sometimes one can’t always do exactly that and hop up to take care of the issue.. point in case if for example a child is reaching for a pot of boiling water or about to place a hand on a hot plate on the stove … a voice is simply the safest fastest way to convey the message vs waiting a few seconds longer to get up and try intervene which would likely be too late …. I would think of it as various levels of shame going from really unhealthy to healthy… and if one can trend more towards the healthy side then the impact is lessened… and afterwards yes absolutely console and explain what could have happened in a loving way
just a thought
The child was very sensitive in its response ,I don't think all children respond in the same way also the grandpa should have stepped in sooner to comfort and explain the child was not clear about what had gone wrong.And he was just watched when he crumbled I did not like that example.
Do you have kids? Sometimes we don’t realize our child is going to react that way. Crying isn’t bad & in the video they made the point that the child responded in a way that it was somatically in him
@@angelamargaretmary yeah I do understand, but too let a kid feel ashamed to stop him from doing something may not be the best way ,I think it is preferable to explain and co.gort soon if there is this much distress.
@@Sun.powder yeah i thought it was gonna be an example of not healthy shame because the kid was so hurt Ang upset. I was surprised they thought this was healthy but I was learning that tree way it was handled was good enough and with kindness and compassion I guess :) and noticing his hurt and caring about it. I'm not a parent yet and I grew up with toxic shame and I'm still taking all this in
@@VioletEmerald I am learning too but I believe it should always be coupled with your instincts I don't just accept what someone says if I feel otherwise,. And I still feel the same way about the example in the video.
Where do we find a good practitioners?
Bailey here from Team Lyon. Here's a directory of practitioners - coregulatingtouch.com/find-a-practitioner/
You can also search in the main SE directory by area, just look in the practitoners description for 'touch work training' or 'SRR', 'Kathy Kain training'. directory.traumahealing.org/. Hope this helps!
innnerpeaceforall, Jen here from Team Lyon. I see that Bailey already gave you some solid leads.
I'll also link to a few others places you might search for practitioners, along with a link to a video that Irene recommends people watch before working with a somatic practitioner.
Team Lyon (some team members are accepting new clients) - irenelyon.com/meet-the-team/
Feldenkrais Practitioner Directory (ask if they are trauma trained) - feldenkrais.com/practitioner-search/
How to Find a Good Somatic Practitioner - irenelyon.com/2019/11/14/how-to-find-a-good-practitioner/
What about the scenario where you are that adult child that never had to do anything for themselves? How do they over come that damage? I was the oldest of four and was basically a second mother to my siblings because my parents were so dysfunctional. My youngest brother never had to do anything because the older siblings did it. Shortly after I moved out to go to college my youngest brother moved out to live with my grandmother who enabled him even more, in every way possible. My father was also enabled in every way possible so we didn't see good role models growing up. We also didn't see healthy shame. My father only communicated in a toxic shaming way, always yelling that you didn't know how to do something but never actually teaching you how to do it. I can't think of a memory where my mother taught us anything at all, healthy or toxic. She was just trying to hold things together. With all that going on my brother grew up with no life skills and absolutely no idea how to do anything on his own. He also can't seem to take the initiative to teach himself what he doesn't know. He is now almost 30 and can't function well at all and without more enabling and constant help he ends up homeless. There's obviously more at play here. I believe he has ADHD and possible undiagnosed personality disorders. He can't handle any criticism and gets extreme defensive if you try to correct him or tell him symptoms you notice that he could treat using one therapy or another. How does someone get out of that cycle of needing constant help? And how do I as the only family member left that will have communication with him, help him without enabling him further? If we lived somewhere warmer I believe I would have walked away along time ago but I get sucked back in when winter hits because I feel so guilty if I don't help him. It's likely shame I'm feeling and not guilt but whatever it is it's a horrible horrible feeling.
Hi Amy, Seth here with Team Lyon. What a heart-wrenching story! I'm very sorry to hear this, and I can really feel how much empathy and compassion you have for your brother. I'm also sorry to tell you this - there is nothing at all you can do for him right now. HE has to be the one that wants to change and get better. If that shift ever happens, then yes, you can talk to him about different approaches to try (and I highly recommend the work we do should that happen!) and even contribute to that process financially if possible, or contribute in other ways. BUT - until he gets to that place within himself of wanting to heal and change, all of your efforts will be a waste of energy.
When you disobey Gods Commandments you will have unpleasant emotions and they are for your Good. These are appropriate Guilt. 😊❤
I did NOT see connection and repair for that child. Just because grandpa said 'oh we shouldn't have left that there' the child does not comprehend that it's not his fault. Connection and repair and NOT ALONENESS would come from grandpa putting his arm around the child saying something absolutely clear like: 'it's not your fault, you're curious and that's a good thing, we shouldn't have left it there cuz it's dangerous for you' - while holding the child lovingly. This example looks very shaming to me... the child is not capable of putting together the 'we should set those things outside'' to mean 'it's not your fault'.
Yeh, even an innocuous phrase like ''that's unacceptable'' if it's uttered by a mother (or parent) who has gone in to MARTYR mode, it's awful.
even over praising parents have a crappy way of dealing with kids. what a trick
I don't understand the "healthy shame" example (that thing with the knife). It's just warning of a painful outcome, not shaming. It has nothing to do with your self-esteem, so where's the shame? If it doesn't make you feel like you're not OK or like you don't belong, can you call it shame?
@ColargoIPL, Jen here from Irene's team. The idea of healthy shame can be a challenging one to wrap one's mind around as many of us equate shame with experiences of toxic shame.
In this work we focus on the physiological response, and these responses are intended to arise in the moment and to pass through, to be time limited. In this vein, you might think of "healthy shame" as a momentary felt experience of discomfort that has the effect of teaching someone something about the impact of their actions (e.g., touching something sharp or hot could hurt me).
This is very different to toxic shame which can feel like it lands in the cells (as it well may) and around which we may construct the belief "I am bad". From this nervous system perspective, the answer to your question would be yes. Hope this helps clarify the intent.
I have to disagree with you. That child didn't know it was dangerous. His Grandfather just said "no" because he didn't want to get of his butt.
You don’t need to get off your butt to teach a lesson... that’s the point they are making here. Did you listen to the whole video? We shouldn’t be doing every little thing for our children.
@@angelamargaretmary The question is What lesson are you teaching? What is the goal? The child has to at least understand what a person is trying to teach them. Obviously, that child was hurt; he wasn't angry that he was restrained, he was just hurt by the tone of voice the man was using. She actually commented about the boy's caved in chest. Is that the result of a message that is constructive? If you just say something to someone you think they will understand; that is what you think, not necessarily what they comprehend.
Ok smth with calling "shame" healthy doesn't sit well with me. Perhaps it's just shame-natural response to life situations, and maybe shaming is abuse meaning continues process of making a person wrong
So you mean remorse. The internal cue to self-reflect, and have remorse proportional to the ‘crime’ as a way to learn - develop wisdom. I don’t like this term ‘healthy shame’. It’s seems quite sensationalist. But you didn’t invent it I see.
I think in some ways you're onto something here but it's not remorse when you don't want to hurt yourself writhe knife or pulling something heavy up high towards you. Remorse is about other people and being sorry you hurt them. You're not sorry you hurt yourself or almost might hurt yourself. It's not about being sorry. You're just aware that you made a mistake and potentially stopping mid-doing it and course-correcting in the course of accomplishing the task.
Hey Bel, Seth here. No this isn't about remorse really. It's about shame. Specifically the postural elements and sensations that occur IN the child - not a mental process at all. We need those somatic elements of shame to be delivered in a healthy, connected way where it's clear that the problem is the behaviour, not the child as a whole, and only in situations where this is warranted. This is what gives that little person an internal signal when they go to do the dangerous or harmful thing again - an internal somatic cue that says 'oh, yeah it doesn't feel good when I do this', which stops them from doing it.
" healthy shame" sounds like a total oxymoron . 🤔🤷♀️
Thanks, great video! I found another video on the subject that you may find interesting. It's on HealtyGamerGG channel called Why Shame is the Raid Boss of Emotions.