Special Topic Lecture: Shame. The Healthy Kind. The Toxic Kind.
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- Опубліковано 2 сер 2024
- Hi Folks. Today was another one of my Special Topic Lectures (did this live on my Facebook Page). The topic today revolves around shame and all its intricacies. I share some vignettes, I read some pieces from John Bradshaw's book, Healing The Shame That Binds You, I talk about the emotion disgust, postural elements on shame, and much more. ENJOY!
Here are some Questions/Topics I discuss in this chat:
8:25 - Example of Healthy Shame
13:52 - Why is Healthy Shame important?
14:50 - Toxic Shame
22:13 - Being raised in a toxic shame environment
24:54 - Example of healthy/toxic shame as a child
28:47 - How do I help my children heal through the trauma?
29:48 - Attachment bond and toxic shame (and affect on parenting)
34:00 - Is Toxic Shame related to Abuse?
35:41 - Unresolved Issues (shame, anger, sadness, etc…) and the effect of it
37:10 - Does SE (somatic experiencing) heal toxic trauma or only shock traumas?
37:42 - Overly ‘needy’ behaviour
41:01 - Connection of shame to disgust
42:41 - Guilt (Moral Shame) and Toxic Shame
46:38 - How to heal from early toxicity, effect on the body (chronic illness).
49:29 - Not expressing emotions can lead to toxic shame
53:24 - Syndromes of toxic shame; introverts, showing no sign of weakness, doing everything yourself, not able to set boundaries, people-pleasers.
57:48 - Disgust, and how we start to work with it
1:01:25 - Emotional deprivation
1:03:51 - Disgust for what happened to you vs. disgust about yourself
1:05:16 - Anger that comes out with toxic shame
1:07:21 - Shame and the Physical Body
1:09:55 - Review of Lecture
1:11:20 - Doing it all on your own (how it can come from toxic shame)
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Resources I mention during this video:
► Drop In Class
irenelyon.com/drop-in-class-1
► 21-Day Nervous System Tune Up
irenelyon.com/tuneup/
► SmartBody SmartMind
www.smartbodysmartmind.com/
►Healing the Shame that Binds You by John Bradshaw
www.amazon.ca/Healing-Shame-t...
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Thank you for being here!
1. Leave a comment and let me know how this video impacted you. Feel free to leave a question (my team answers them each week!)
2. To get more nervous system health resources, plus learn more about me and my credentials, plus the many ways you can work with me at the practical level, head to my website: irenelyon.com
3. Follow me on social here:
Instagram: / irenelyon
Facebook: / lyonirene
LinkedIn: / irenelyon
SoundCloud: / irenelyon
4. GOT QUESTIONS? Send an email to: support@irenelyon.com
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Please know that…
The statements on this UA-cam channel or in videos are simply opinion. Content presented or posted on this channel is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment or a professional therapeutic relationship. Content presented or posted is intended to provide general health information for educational purposes only and you should contact the appropriate healthcare professional before relying on any such information.
My website is a wealth of free resources and information on how to start this work, so here it is one more time: irenelyon.com
When I was doing something my father was always yelled at me - you don't know anything, your mother teached you nothing. And it took me years to stop hearing his voice in my head.
Wow this helped me to understand that my shame isn’t personal, and i didn’t create it. It’s from a lack of healthy connection in childhood, most likely generational…
The modern concept we refer to as “professionalism” contains within it (as well as some really healthy standards of interaction) some incredibly inhumane and unhealthy standards of self-shaming, self-repression, ignoring one’s bodily and emotional needs, etc.. And, of course, it’s not just self-directed; it’s how humans who successfully function within most sectors of the business/industry world are conditioned to treat each other. Our whole system of work and “professionalism” (showing up without your feelings, problems, general human messiness) is profoundly traumatizing, I think. On a mostly subtle, baseline level, anyone who earns a living is constantly operating under the fear of rejection, disconnection from community and support. It’s an existential threat that never subsides. If you bring your full humanity to work in most jobs, you’re in trouble. The message is toxic to us all.
What a great and mind-boggling reflection..it sends chills down my spine...an overwhelming reality you speak of here.
I LOVE John Bradshaw's work. While we have many new, contemporary speakers and teachers, his work was the reason I advanced in my own self-exploration work. In fact, watching John Bradshaw on Oprah, years ago, while launching his 'new' (at that time) book, "Homercoming", I experienced a mind-blowing epiphany about my own life and upbringing. Who says you always need a therapist if you are open to learning? It was amazing. I also loved learning that "Guilt says you made a mistake" and SHAME says, "You ARE a mistake". It never separates your behavior from who you are. So important to understand for true healing! So happy to see Irene sharing this material.
It clicks. I have been sensing it since about 3 months straight. Can’t eat. This helpful video puts up where it comes from. We are disciplined with it. Grow from humiliation and try to escape it. Belittling is daily and our parents feel so so good after doing this to me and my brothers. Its impressive.
Hard to grow without a positive line mark. So we are mentally late and driven to alcohol too much religion or insanity / wrong sexual habit.
All feels wrong.
That’s my gift and heritage. I seat with it. I feel the dead rat in my throat.
Can’t wait for it to pass. I’m not blocking it.
I read Bradshaw's books so many years ago, used the videos for clients back then, have been through so much 'work' with my own self, the last many years on somatic experiencing, thank goodness! And now...all this time later, facing the very foundation where the nervous system resides, and even before that. So many layers to get through. So once again, so many years later....yes, feeling the shame in a much more RAW state....right in the basement of the soul, where the hidden treasures live, that appear as demons...as Irene mentioned. When we're ready, we arrive there....at the beginning "And know it for the first time" T.S. Eliot. Oh my gosh, what a school, this life! Sometimes too weary for words, other times knowing i am on track. I wake up in the night hearing "The wheels are turning into the Divine". and "Walk THROUGH anything that keeps you from being connected to that Divine place within yourself." Between my devotion to my spiritual work and all we have to learn and PRACTICE with...that Irene is teaching.....i have all i need .
I watched so many videos of Irene so far, many! Am on the 21 day course as well.. but this one really really touches me deep. I was shamed so much by my mother but my dad was very loving. But I am thinking of the trauma my middle sister went through. My granma told me how mum never really cared but my dad ( who worked away during the week and was home the WE)loved me so much. But they all neglected my little sister. She would cry for milk at night nobody would wake up,, she would just cry.. my grandma told me,, it was not her job to intervene in my patents parenting.. one day my uncle was so tired of hearing her crying that he took her to soothe her in the middle of the night.. She s such a difficult person to get on with today, so broken. We are in our 40s. In fact she was so toxic to me and she saw my helping hand as another thread that in the end the least painful way to get on with life was to cut ties. I think of her with tears in my eyes and a big heavy heart. But she wants to heal on her own. I just pray and hope she s ok. 😢 I am not ready yet to consider reconnecting as I have my own sh*t to deal with so I may be a bit more approachable to her...
48:00 chronic illness as a result of high levels of cortisol stress
And why psychotherapy isn’t enough
Thank You Irene, I hear my thoughts in your reasonings, it strengthens me. May God continue to bless your ministry, so be it. 🙏
Incredible discussion👏
Only now am I aware of & figuring out, that me being raised in a broken home (poorly) has had more negative affects at 57 yrs old. I shoved it all down deep. I was guilty of raising my twin boys (now 28), with my overly protective parent traits (my 1 yr older & 4 yrs younger sisters also raised their 3 children as I did). They're responsible, kind & loving. My husband's progressive alcoholism, did me in about 5 yrs ago. With that, a number of trauma issues surfaced in me. Still married (31 yrs ago), but feel he's more of a close friend/brother. Too many scares & holes in my heart. I'm too tearful so quickly & don't deal well with harsh individuals as I did in the past.
Yes, thank you, harsh individuals becomes more and more toxic, not understanding how subtle energies are and how to talk to a sensitised awareness. May love bless you in all things.
Epic talk, always. SOOOO much gratitude for teachers like you!!!
Wow I’m only halfway through listening to this and it is so validating! Thank you Irene!
I understand, and using that word idiot towards anyone is toxic in every sense. Will think twice next, and will avoid that negative situation with something positive. Thank you Irene.
This is incredibly talk Irene, thank you so much 🙏
Needed this today!
This was awesome! Thank you so much.
So So grateful for your teachings.
This whole section 31:40 💓
Do your own work 28:48
(Note to self up to 34:33)
Thank you 🙏🏻 ❤
I started to cry when youve read about intarverted. Everything is so truth
Thank you Irene !!
Very helpful !
great stuff. Thanks Irene!
Very interested as to how athletes such as gymnasts, martial artists and dancers are affected by dealing great amounts of physical stress and are often told to show no emotion to push past it.
Thank you Irene
Thank you for all your wonderful work, it helped me enormously to get a lot of clarity within myself, to wade through some of my more intricate defenses etc. Yet, I believe, like many mental health professionals, even you inevitably have some blind spots, one of which is possibly demonstrated in this very video.
I believe with this kind of framing ("some shame is healthy") there is a missed opportunity to explore deeper. ("a door is closed shut" by making such a phenomenological statement in your mind)
Consider this:
* Your mind is a product of 4 billion years of evolution / natural selection, of which the prime imperative is maximizing your chances of survival, including preferably not cutting yourself with sharp objects, which were always in abundance in the environment, during those billions of years of *training*.
* Considering the above basic, undeniable fact (in my opinion), the real issue is why the 7 year old you (really, in a way, 4 billion years old in terms of honing survival skills) *chose* to potentially endanger your own life by holding a sharp object close to your face. (or rather create and display a potentially dangerous-looking situation, to a nearby observer)
* From an evolutionary perspective, the only viable perspective for a child is to frame *whatever* parents do in regards to the child, as *care*. The alternative is unbearable and is perceived as roughly equal as (in the direction of) "I am as good as dead." In other words, from an evolutionary perspective, it is very much preferable to perceive parents as an
*authority* in the sense that *whatever* they do "*must* be for our own good / survival." Therefore, given that childhood experience you described, the perspective "some shame is healthy" is possible and is natural, it reflects natural erring towards the side of interpreting whatever parents do as caring for us.
* But there is another possibility.
* Perhaps, that state of mind you were in had a *purpose* in the first place, and is a consequence/symptom of repeating pattern of behaviors of a parent(s): e.g. to test if your father upon seeing this would resort to shaming you (again, and again) rather than, say be more non-shamingly authoritative, caring (expressing and asserting his authority in terms of being your protector) and trusting (trusting your survival instincts), in other words it had a *purpose* of figuring out the nature of your fathers *authority* to you.
* Shame is a form of fear, and we do not want (can't prefer) to be in a state of fear, also from the perspective of maximizing chances of survival, since the state of fear generally speaking is not conducive to making good decisions.
* Therefore, a notion of "wanting" to experience fear = "some shame is healthy" contradicts the nature of evolution, natural selection, and the above hypothesis of "testing" the parent makes much more sense in my opinion.
* Moreover, another way to look at the above hypothesis (and your empirical experience in that situation) is this: "I have this gnawing feeling that *I can't trust 100%* that my father's behavior is aligned with my prime imperative of survival, since he tends to *shame* me presumably *for my own good*, because it contradicts the wisdom/experience of the 4 billion years of my predecessors, therefore I need to create situations where I can test his reliability/authority in terms of how much his behavior/motivation is really aligned with my personal survival interests, where do I stand with him as an authority, how much I can trust him as an authority in this regard. Well, he shamed me again. Therefore, I have to form a notion that "some shame is healthy" despite its contradiction to my lizard brain's experience and nature, because the notion that my parent might endanger my life, even inadvertently, by inducing a state of fear/shame in me for whatever reason (really, likely, motivated by his deficit of connection with himself fundamentally) is even worse, and although it is confusing that he induced this unnecessary state of fear in me he still clearly does not want me to be hurt nevertheless."
* Given all of the above, the only conclusion that makes sense to me is that NO form of shaming is healthy.
* You DON'T *NEED* anyone shaming you as a child to prevent you from performing actions which can lead to you killing yourself with sharp objects. A reptile wouldn't do it, but an apex predator called homo sapiens "needs" to be shamed into saving themselves? Absurd, isn't it? The causality which lead to the childhood experience you described must be something else rather than inability to not put yourself in such obviously dangerous situations unless you are "helped" by external shaming. I offered one hypothesis, which, or something like it is more plausible in my opinion. Prior shaming is more probably *what lead* to that situation, not the other way around, in other words, all forms of shaming is likely to create problems, no way it can be beneficial.
* To reiterate, it seems to me illogical that shaming children can be a beneficial tool to *prevent* situations like the one you described, it is much more plausible that such situations are rather a consequence of *prior and repeated shaming* - you were 7, remember, how much of the same kind of "help" in terms of shaming did your father had an opportunity to provide at that point? You are not asking a vital question that needs to be asked: why was I in that situation when I was 7. You rather assume that you were "bad" ("needed" correction by shaming), that your lizard brain (+7 years of personal experience) "were not enough." Isn't this the very definition of already *being* in a state of shame. (being sufficiently *shamed* into it during the prior 7 years)
ADDED:
* An even more "radical", "dark" but vivid, illustrative variation of the above hypothethis, another way to look at it: "My *experience* of 7 years tells me that one of the two things or a variation of them is true: (1) my father as an authoritative/protective figure is *NOT very reliable* in terms of protecting me, since he shames me regularly among other things and that contradicts my preferences/"innate/evolutionary wisdom" in terms of my survival instincts. Or: (2) Since he does quite a bit of that, he probably deems me an unfit ("bad") specimen of the species, not worthy of survival. All of this is confusing and scary in itself, and I need to keep testing. So let me create a situation, where I can potentialy guage his reaction and potentially also either way do what's best for the species. Will he help me survive? Will he let me hurt myself? Either way I'll get clarity and move closer to my primary evolutionary/biological imperative. Well, he helped me but also hurt (shamed) me at the same time. Conclusion: he did it for my own good. Shame is good. (there are good forms of same) I am good but not good enough not to be shamed."
* The two notable kinds of outcomes of any kind of shaming seem to be that the child/mind eventually settles (unless work is done later in life to review these "locked" notions) more or less on some sort of "shamefulness spectrum" between: (1) I am deemed good enough to be worthy of living. (2) I do not deserve to be alive.
You seem to call what leads to variations of (1) "healthy" and what leads more to (2) "toxic."
I'd say this distinction is rather arbitrary. It's arbitrary in terms of utility. (maximization of chances of survival, quality of life) It's not arbitrary in terms of its genesis. Its genesis (of this notion, not the supposed "necessity" of shame itself) makes sense from evolutionary perspective as something as preferable to have such a notion to survive sub-optimal childhood environment. Therefore the only possible conclusion seems to be the same. Ultimately, NO forms of shaming are "healthy" or "necessary."
* This leads to another interesting related insight: What is *ANXIETY* really? Yes, the common notion is "fear of what might happen." But it's not very detailed. I venture to hypothesize that the core of the phenomenon of anxiety is formed in childhood (and then like a snowball the process often builds up during the rest of the life) and builds up every time our empirical life experience contradicts our innate/instinctive/evolutionary wisdom ("lizard brain's wisdom"), especially through acts of shaming by caretakers and others as described above, this "ball of anxiety" grows. And one of the things this "ball of anxiety" prods us to do is to keep testing the real state our relationships with parents and others. And since people in general tend not to change much unless they do work on themselves, anxiety keeps many of us in what feels like going in circles (on a hamster wheel). In other words, what I've just described is the description of deficit of emotional separation with parents (and others).
* The more our empirical experience aligns with our evolutionary/innate/instinctive "knowledge"/wisdom, in our own actions, our experiences with other people and how we interpret those experiences and actions of ourselves and others, the more at peace, less anxious, serene and happy we are. Because, literally, any dissonance between the two is perceived by lizard brain as a sign of reducing chances of survival (moving "closer to death"). And all kinds of shaming are essentially "you are bad" ("you got something wrong") to the lizard brain. Which is extremely unlikely to be true: the lizard brain etc. carries the knowledge of its predecessors who managed to survive through billions of years of the extremely brutal process of natural selection, and the other ("new" in terms of evolution) forms of cognition, from which the shaming forms of communication originate or through which they reach the lizard brain, simply can't be more than a fine-tuning mechanism in terms of adding to the imperative of survival, but shaming is something which *contradicts* (tries to contradict) the knowledge of the lizard brain!
I really enjoy your content. Some other similar channels out there are way too spiritual
Agree!! I lost myself in other channels...
This really hits home for me, on so many levels. I've done some somatic work and had some disgust come up. I've made a lot of mistakes with my child. The biggest being not knowing the extent of the trauma I carry. I personally believe my deepest trauma was loosing twins in the womb, I believe it is not uncommon for it to be a pattern that has roots even earlier than infancy.
53:29: Cover up isolation/Plea to be allowed to live
Yes I have a lot of toxic shame to heal.
Thankyou 🙂 I have just been starting to look into shame for my own healing! Do you have any information on hypnosis for complex trauma or what are your thoughts on it?
Hi Oak Tree 2222, Jen here from Team Lyon. In general Irene teaches people to follow their impulses when it comes to different healing modalities. Hypnosis can be a piece of the healing picture if it calls to you and you're working with a practitioner you feel safe with, and it doesn't typically grow nervous system regulation on it's own. If you haven't yet watched Irene's free Healing Trauma video series, I'd recommend checking it out as you'll likely learn more there.
I really love how you touched on the subject of doing your own work. This is such a helpful topic for so many!
Oh boy my childhood was so full of toxic shame 24/7 🤮🤮🤮 now studying SBSM.. looking forward to the day when i can actually feel something else than being so incredibly ashamed all of the time 😱🤯🤢
Note to self up to 1:00:24
I am confused. I love your videos and thank you for bringing this up. Is the idea then that if someone feels pain because of “healthy shame” their pain is not legitimate and should not be attended to? This is where these distinctions become dangerous for me. “Masters” of the trade throw concepts out there, failing to be present with an individual’s experience in the present moment. Isn’t the work about being here in the body with what arises? Isn’t this distinction a way to distract from attending to the pain of a human?
50:35 feeding infants to a schedule is really bad for their entire nervous system. Feed on demand, people! 💖
Basic human emotions mammalian emotions 40:08
Joy fear sadness surprise disgust and anger
Will you do a video discussing structural dissociation?
A question: 🙏🏼
42:00 ish Irene says we feel disgust at what occurred rather than at ourselves. This seems to contradict what Irene says in the video on disgust as a gateway emotion where she quotes from Kathy Kain iirc about smelling and tasting the dead rat and feeling like we are rotten meat. Where the disgust is indeed felt about ourselves as a direct result of being toxically shamed. Can anyone on the Team clarify! TY! 🙏🏼💖
Will you do a video discovering ‘gaslighting’ in broader extent?
I have been through psychopathic gaslighting, very severe example.
Imogene Reeve, I'm sorry to hear about your the sever experience you've had with gaslighting. I'll pass along your request for a video specifically on the topic of gaslighting. - Jen from Team Lyon
The thing with being quiet and not a bother is a double edged sword for me. Because then I’m hurt when I try and not be a bother yet the others do not. I can become infuriated.
I hate it.
"A plea to be allowed to live" 😨!!!!
It totally makes sense.
Yes, I was in a constant pledge to be allowed to live. I tried so hard to be a 'good girl'.
And in my 40's now, I'm still struggling to feel safe.
I live in chronic stress, chronic fear of not being a good person/professional/mother/wife and being... Killed ! Or shamed to death.
I started the 21 day NSTU. Is this going to help concerning safety and/or shame?
Hi Steffy Justin, Jen here from Team Lyon. Great to hear you started the 21 Day Nervous System Tune Up! You'll learn things for sure that help with safety. Irene doesn't go much into shame in the 'Tune Up' though as you do the practices the nervous system often brings up experiences that are ready for healing. Irene goes more deeply into how to create foundational safety (especially when we didn't have this experience when we were young) in her comprehensive program, SmartBody SmartMind.
@@teamlyon3109 Ok thank you.
Hi im 60 yrs old had a very traumatic childhood every type of abuse you can imagine from my father, i have a diagnosis of deppression cptsd and anxiety ive had my whole life this way i cant do it anymore im exhausted ive had no family aunts cousins grandparents ect ,ive spent my life alone ive had children but have lost them through being so unwell i have no one literally alone everyday i dont know how much more i can do this can you help
@@anna4lease587 Hello, I am sorry to hear what you went through. I hear your pain.
Please believe that you can heal, that you deserve to heal.
I finished the 21-day NSTU and I'm now doing sbsm. If that's something you can do, go ahead.
If not, reach out to someone who can be trusted in your community.
My best to you on this journey to healing.
@@steffyjustin5108 oh thank you steffy thats so beautiful and thoughtful of you godbless you hunee its people like you that can restore someones faith in humanity when it has been so broken much appreciation that you took the time bless you sweetheart
40:24: Disgust link
What about toxic guilt? For example, misplaced guilt that a child takes on after being abandoned by a parent or having a parent who uses guilt to control a child that leads the child/adult to feeling chronically unworthy/undeserving and like a terribly bad person? It also feels like toxicity absorbed at the cellular level but different from shame. Would you say that all falls under the same thing as shame?
Hi gonnabapro, Seth here from Team Lyon. Yes, basically the same thing, though guilt often comes along with a sense of having done something wrong and is often associated with a sense of our morality or ethics, whereas shame is a more primal, and often nonverbal experience that may not have a lot of context - they are certainly in the same wheelhouse though. There's a great book on shame called 'Healing the shame that binds you' by John Bradshaw, and in it he says, 'Guilt is moral shame'.
What can i do i want some of my life to be happy
Hi, Irene! You mentioned not forcing kids doing things they don't want doing. But what about school? If my kid doesn't want to go to school and for example he preferes to stay home or he wants to sleep more? What can I do then? I guess a lot of kids are in this situation especially the little ones. Thank you!
Hi. I'm Mara with Team Lyon. School is an interesting one because there are adult and societal expectations about attending, including laws in many places. For some kids who really struggle to attend traditional schooling, families may find homeschooling or alternative private arrangements work better. If it's a child who ordinarily attends school fine, but occasionally bumps into resistance or fatigue, it may be important to really listen to what is going on with the child. For example, my own upbringing was to go to school pretty much no matter what unless I had a fever or had just vomited. I remember going with bad colds to school. My own children generally go to school fine but sometimes need an extra day of rest. I try to honor that when I can so they learn to listen to themselves better.
@@IreneLyon I also try to honor the child's needs as much as I can. Thank you for your answer!
I don’t know how to feel or express anger. My parents never allowed it….
Hello, Sophia here with Team Lyon. Thank you for your comment and sorry to hear about what's going on for you. Regarding anger, here are some videos of Irene talking about the topic, which you might find interesting: ua-cam.com/video/ZKBy60Sh7b0/v-deo.html , ua-cam.com/video/3PyydXbP4tA/v-deo.html , ua-cam.com/video/RljnDLOJwd8/v-deo.html and ua-cam.com/video/66Wm_hQEs3o/v-deo.html
If you feel inclined to start learning about and working on your nervous system, you can check out Irene's free resources here: irenelyon.com/free-resources/
So those of us who used Dr. Spock's advice, pretty much THE baby book in the 70's, are enduring great shame today for scheduled feeding we were advised was best for baby.
Hi Chris Brown, Jen here from Team Lyon, Yep, you got it. I was born in the Dr. Spock "cry it out" era too. The effects can be devastating. Thankfully we are learning how to transform this experience so that those of us fortunate to have found this information can grow a new way and more expansive way of experiencing ourselves and the world.
Im 60 yrs old had a very traumatic childhood every type of abuse you can imagine from my father because of this i had no exstended family at all no aunts uncles cousins ectc and still dont ive had children but lost them as well due to being unwell all there lives i have deppression cptsd and anxiety im alone everyday and i feel sad deppressed suicidal every day im so tired of it this all describes me very well , this abuse was everyday and severe til age 13 when i left home its been a life of hell and just surviveing im on my own everyday have no family and friends i cant and dont want to do this anymore is there any help for me im tired of liveing
Hey Anna, how are things going for you these days?
@@fierceduckling its still pretty hard doing life alone
What if the parent is using the strong, stern, not apparently toxic communication style to convey that the child is wrong in something the child can't change? For example, the child is dyslexic, or gay, or untalented at the parent's favored area of focus. And what if the parent never overtly abuses the child but never accepts or understands him or her either? I think that this can lead to heartbreaking toxic shame as well.
appletree, Jen her from Team Lyon. If you're asking if this suggesting that a child is wrong for being how they are could lead to feelings of toxic shame, then the answer is yes. Lack of understanding and acceptance could potentially have the same effect.
When I’m comprehending shame I’m feeling my own capability to experience shame. Comprehension requires drawing from what’s within. Virtual reality. I never had to believe the shamer. Shame registered so often, and in alarm where senses and intellect are ungated. Analogous to Irene’s Hoberman Sphere demonstration. It’s embedded experience and sensations.
And when shamed, disgust registered. Disgust of the shamer, and my view of the shamer’s expressed disgust. So, I would feel disgusting and shameful. Reflexively I revulsed against my own body, which was only registering the sensations to help me through this while helping me to learn to cope with my environment. It’s a shell game for us, with consequences.
Whenever we view beyond our window we’re minimally aware of our own background’s reflection from behind us, and we take in the whole view, which revises also our own view of our self.
Irene...keep sounding like a broken record. Each day and each video repetition is in a new context. When it sounds old it’s time to pay attention to it again. What you’re repeating we have to allow to connect in many ways because the nervous system connects any one thing in many ways, with many other things over a vast network, a few at a time, for establishment.
You’re accomplishing a difficult task-giving just enough at the right time.
Hi Timothy, Jen here from Irene's Team (as you know!). I really appreciate and admire the skillful, clear, poignant way you express your experience in relationship to these concepts and what they touch in to.
@@teamlyon3109 Jen, what I wrote would once have sounded, to me, as another rationalization or model. Your assertions that anyone has to do the work is extremely true, for an element of seeing into and for one’s self is needed on a neural/experiential level. Not just because of skepticism, but to keep your education synergistic and not a rote formula to apply on the surface.
Because of CPTSD, learning difficulties and distrust I was wary of standard research models and unconcerned /uninformed intentions. I worked on inner searching, observing patterns, searching them out, recording them. I need to know my clockworks.
I found Team Lyon echoing & greatly adding to what I found. You’ve lent your research and references credibility, fleshed it out, expressed and described it wonderfully and accurately.
Whether I could, as a student, weather the wonderful upcoming Science/SE event you’ve slated for 2021 I don’t know-I’d very much like to. I’m not being a casual subscriber/supporter. Nor do I pretend I can stand alone. Your context will be powerful and effective, the best available.
Also my experience with social media was also problematic, chaotic, and inundating. Most people seem to have no problem.
Do you have a link and course description? Several kinesiology and sports sciences students would-or should appreciate this package, and I’d like to recommend it.
Wonderful wise & intelligent Henry, a WWU dramatic arts student, asked me whether I would choose to be extremely wise or extremely intelligent.
“Wise”, I replied.
“Why”, he asked.
“Because intelligence alone can be dangerous”, I answered.
You people have the best combination of both.
@@timothybollenbaugh6111, thanks for your kind and thoughtful words. The program related to the research study is SmartBody SmartMind (SBSM), I'll link to the program information here. I'll also link to a Facebook post of Irene's with links to more detailed information.
As far as social media goes, it IS important that you have a comfort level with technology to participate in SBSM, it is not a requirement that you're well versed in social media. It can help if you're able to access facebook as Irene offers integration events via facebook live, and you can also interact with program moderators (Team Lyon members) and other program participants via the SBSM facebook group.
I hope this info is helpful in your decision process. If you have other questions, you can email support@irenelyon.com as Seth and I are only in here periodically.
November 23 at 4:54 PM
The content related to the title of this video begins about 8mins in
10:11
And I suppose They’res healthy stupidity and toxic stupidity as well right lol??
So….let me see if I understand what you are saying…. If someone feels disgust, that means they are experiencing shame for the wrong that was done to them??
Mrs Tedrow, Jen here from Team Lyon. Let me see if I can clarity a bit. Shame and disgust are two different responses. If we've been abused or mistreated, its not uncommon to feel both.
For example, if I was told "you're a bad kid" over and over, I may internalize this and feel ashamed of myself (toxic shame). I may also feel disgust for taking in something that feels toxic to me. Developmentally it's common to internalize this disgust, to direct it towards oneself.
As we learn this work over time, we learn to externalize these feelings, and as we do, we often transform our sense of self and have more access to feelings of aliveness and connection. I'll link to a few related resources in case you'd like to learn more.
How toxic shame creates the fallout we call depression - irenelyon.com/2017/09/14/toxic-shame-creates-fallout-call-depression/
Disgust: The Gateway Emotion to Healing Toxic Shame - irenelyon.com/2019/10/25/disgust-the-gateway-emotion-for-healing-toxic-shame/
Shame is not healthy at all, you mean guilt is healthy sometimes, there is no shame in alarming about danger. Guilt is ehen i did somethong wrong, shame is i am wrong. The healthy way is to apologize when you do something wrong but never apologise about who you are.
@ismush8, Jen here from Irene's Team. In this work, we differentiate healthy shame from toxic shame, both of which are different from guilt. Many of us only have experience with toxic shame, so the idea of healthy shame can seem foreign for sure.
@@IreneLyon thanks for your reply, i watched the video, still cant understand how shame can be healthy. Shame is the most difficult amotiin to feel and process thats why many societies use that to controll and manipulate indeviduals to fit in, whats shameful in one group isnt in the other, it causes people to reject parts of themselvs and thus move further away from their athentisity. I cant see how this can be healthy, guilt on the other hand can make a person to relate on a deed he has made and regret and lern from it, and still dont blame himself, shaming even in the most jentile form is harmful for the ego, which is going to adapt in all kinds of coping mechanisms, you never can control how it will effect a persons psychee, when you teach that shaming is sometimes healthy you enable people to keep doing this and manipulating others. Im open minded to learn what can be healthy in that and for who.
I don't agree, i was a child in 60's and i knew that mother's or fathers were not supposed to shame and abuse you, so this statement you made about it being 70's is ridiculous, it was not dark ages, and we know things from having lived other lives too, i knew it was wrong in my gut, from school, t.v., i was 7!
I like a lot of Irene's content, but she often is a bit off when it comes to advice regarding children. Has she done any research specifically on children? How many children has she worked with on a regular basis? It's almost as if her research-based knowledge stops when it comes to young people, and conventional wisdom kicks in instead. Children need shame in order to learn right from wrong? More like children need healthy, loving limits in order to be contained and safe, and to feel connected to their caregivers. And when they are feeling connected, their natural, innate ability to know right from wrong is able to be expressed.
Hi Brooke Krovic, Jen here from Team Lyon. Reading your comment I was curious if you heard Irene talking about the difference between healthy shame and toxic shame? The former is quite different than what many of us think of when we think of shame.
@@teamlyon3109 I did hear what she had to say about healthy shame vs. toxic shame, and I disagree with the idea that children need any kind of shame in order to be good people. I think that little Irene needed more information at the time, when she was using the knife. Perhaps it was a dangerous situation, in which case coming over to her and gently putting a hand on hers to keep her from being unsafe, and giving her the information she needed to be safe, would have been just as effective.
There are plenty of times when my own children are behaving "badly", and "healthy shame" does nothing to change that. I use lots of different tones of voice to bring a limit. Sometimes it's serious, sometimes it's super sweet, and sometimes it's playful. As long as I am close and trying to connect to my children and listening to them in that moment, I never have a need to use any type of shame. (This is all Hand in Hand Parenting stuff, where shame never comes into the picture, but there are plenty of limits and connection.)