The finish woodworkers have been waiting for?
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- Опубліковано 11 гру 2023
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Are ceramic nanocoats UA-cam hype or the future of wood finishes. Lets find out!
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Carbon Method - carbonmethod.com/ceramic-nano...
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-Black Forest - blackforestwood.com/products/...
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Hey everyone - a lot of questions about automotive ceramics in the comments section. I stumbled across the below video prior to filming mine and he did not have good luck, hence me not considering them. My hunch is - this isnt a product you want to cheap out on - but I could be wrong. I would be interested in hearing feedback from you all and it could warrant a follow up. ua-cam.com/video/CzgENC529Ds/v-deo.html
Worked for me, I used Cerakote, your results may vary,
Would love to see a follow up video testing all kinds of ceramic coatings. Even the failures would be very interesting.
@@hugalugaTotally; ESPECIALLY the failures.
Would also love to See some Testing with different automative products
That guy didn't actually test real automotive ceramic finishes. He tested the spray on 'ceramic' detail stuff, which isn't a true polymer coating. I'd be shocked if there is any difference between the wood stuff and the automotive stuff. Stuff like cerakote is literally designed to be applied over a hard wax finish like carnauba, and is proven in the harsh conditions cars experience. It's definitely worth doing that experiment with the real thing on wood.
The Mark Rober of wood working. Great video!
The fact that you are free to say "It sucks" about Blacktail Studio products (I adore the guy!) is already a good thing. Thank you for ALL your videos and dry humor (Canadian-Frenchie here loves it)
(Small part of me wished it sucked just so I could say so 😂) Thanks for watching
It would be interesting to try the actual automotive ceramic coating buffed into wood.
COMPLETELY AGREE!
Yup, would like to see. It’s 20% of the price and would make it cheap enough.
Ehhh not the good stuff. I put CQuartz SiC on my vehicle and it was essentially the same price, and it's considered a one year coating (which is on the lower end of the spectrum).@@FabienHuetz
I have tried it. didnt notice any difference.
100%
I'm with you on the finish. Thank you for making it clear. I hope you are willing to go deeper on this issue. It is so informative. What a great video.
Thanks for another thoughtful video. A note on needing a respirator for products stating they contain no VOCs. All a statement of 0 VOC means is that a product contains no Volatile Organic Compounds, or no volatile compounds that contain carbon and are regulated as a VOC. What you are experiencing, and what some VOC meters are probably detecting, are volatiles that do not contain carbon. Ammonia for instance isn't something you want to breath in a lot of but isn't a VOC.
YEOW, I just looked at the price. You can buy a couple of tools for the price of a bottle or two.
Your reviews are ALWAYS spot on and non-biased. Thanks! !! !!!
Thanks for all the work you put into this Jon!
Thx! And very nice that finally someone did it! A comparison and review of ceramics for wood.
I love this channel. Entertaining, informative and trustworthy. One of my favorites.
I am not a woodworker. I'm a casual dude who has recently gotten into making desks, shelves, and other practical items around the house. I really enjoy videos like this and others to get to the bottom of all of the competing narratives with explanations and examples that are approachable.
For what it's worth, I just finished a desk for my kids with Natura Onecoat and Rustic Lumber Hydrocoat. It's definitely the hobbyist budget package. I got the introductory price on the hydrocoat so together it was $110. That's certainly more expensive than other finishes, but it felt approachable as a hobbyist looking for ease of application and protection. It ended up having a satin (semi-gloss) sheen that I think is a nice happy medium.
I would not be surprised to see a pricing war happen in this space. All of the companies making this for the automotive market might start tweaking their formula (or branding) for wood if this catches on. Not only that, but I could see that makers of Natura Onecoat getting involved. The company behind it is called MCT Chem. If I recall correctly, they once sent out a representative to a machine shop I was working at and asked to look at all of our most used chemicals. They offered to match or CREATE a formula for anything we used a lot of. It seems that breaking into existing markets is kind of their thing... One way or another, I think there will be a lot of competition here.
This is definitely the most detailed video on testing nano coatings. Makes me want to try the n3 nano. Thanks!
I love how no nonsense your videos are, and your knack for subtle yet great humor. You are the Tommy Lee jones of wood working UA-camrs
Very helpful, good discussion! Thanks, Jon.
I’ve been super curious about Cam’s N3 finish. The man seemed to be honest about it through the whole process and I believed him but I appreciate a non biased review from someone like you. I think I’m going to give his a shot.
Fantastic overview of these! Nice work
Thank you for the fair and honest review! All the brands you reviewed here are great products, and you can't go wrong with either one.
Great video! Thanks for making it!
I like the higher contrast but I am also a weirdo and prefer a matte satin finish over gloss. Cool video always a pleasure to hear your point of view.
As always, great and unbiased review. Thank you!
Really cool review, I hadn't even realized these kinds of coatings had made their way to the woodworking world. I got semi into car detailing over the pandemic and have used a couple of the ceramic products on cars for myself and couple of people and they do work very well. The only caveat I would recommend is be very wary of the claims about UV protection unless they have numbers to back it up. Many, many automotive products claim to have "UV protection" but most do not last any usable length of time. Great YT channel called Dmitri's Garage that does really great testing on all kind of auto stuff did tests on a ton of products that touted a high level of protection and he compared them against each other, and very very few provided any sort of usable protection. Short of rubbing your furniture with sunscreen, there's not a ton you can do about anything that's near a window or lives outside.
Anyway great stuff as usual man, really looking forward to how these ceramics progress in terms of their woodworking application.
I have used the Carbon Method on my table saw top and it is amazing. I have not tried it on wood but I am waiting on applicators to apply it to my band saw.
It honestly looks like one of the best applications may be for highly figured pieces - the contrast behind door #2 is incredible.
The secret is that you can get that already by just sanding up to the ~1000 grit range and using an oil or hardwax.
Thanks for the great tutorial. Have a great Christmas
Another great video. Very interesting. Thank you, from the UK.
Very well presented! Definitely worthwhile
Those samples at the beginning got me hooked fast. Good video.
Thanks!
Another informative, well put together, comprehensive video. Great job! Looks like some great products, with great results. Hopefully they will continue innovating, and bringing down the price. Great content brother…however, I do miss the comedy of the older videos!
They do and have done this in woodworking finishing and other products for years. People always figure it out but there will always be people who just have to over pay to feel good. The only other realm that is worse is "Marine" grade stuff.
Cool info. I've got a big set of dressers to finish coming up (and a set of side tables to refinish the top coat after 2 years of use) and gonna go with this instead of spraying poly. I was already using shellac as a sort of sanding sealer first coat.
Seems like this has some of the same ease of use (and caveats) as wipe on poly, but with less hassle and a much thinner lighter feel/sheen
As a professional certified detailer that was coming up during the transition from traditional waxes to ceramic/polymer-based products. As I have been getting into woodworking, I have really been thinking about how they would work in this application. Your explanation of how light bounces off of surfaces is right out of my detail training years ago. I am excited you are diving into this process.
I was wondering if there are some automotive ceramic products that are much more affordable? Has anybody tried it?
There are many different types of polymer-based sealants. These ones he is showing are a bit pricey, but they do go a long way. One of those bottles can typically cover a standard 3 door sedan. However, there are some spray on products but the reapplication rate is much higher. The type of ceramic he is using here has a lifespan of several years. The lower the cost, the shorter the protection time if that make sense.
I use auto ceramics on my tools as a base coat, with spray re-applicators to maintain.
$110 for a 2 oz bottle?? That's ridiculous. I don't think so!
@@shaboo2 Well he said 4 to 5 table tops? Which is nearly 100 sq ', if accurate.
Great video John keep up the great work
As always, great review Jon. I need to begin using one of these ceramics.
There is a product I believe that is the exact same stuff for cell phone screens. When I applied it to an older phone I did some testing. It took a massive amount of effort to scratch the side of the screen with it applied. Once I did get it to scratch It was super shallow and reapplying the coating filled in the scratch and it was no longer visible.
The stuff works... if its the same stuff then im 100% in. Id been watching his videos where he had been using this stuff and have been considering testing it.
said it before, and I'll say it agian, so glad i stumbled on to your channel. Thank you!
Great video! Thanks!
Great video and information Jon. Thank you. I used the carbon method of my table saw. Can definitely tell a difference. I dont want scratchy the elephant in my house, but think he should make future cameos in your videos. 👍🏻
Excellent video as always. Too expensive for me for every day stuff but makes sense for a tabletop. Plus I still prefer the matte look over any sort of gloss.
Great video as usual.
Good video. Thanks!
I like your honesty, seems a bit rare on UA-cam
Awesome video man! Thanks for testing our products.
One feature about our product we’re very proud of is that it is water based, which eliminates any harmful solvents. I’d be curious to know if you saw a difference in VOCs!
We also see that you had used one of our older formulas, we’ve improved the product and have even more durable coatings available. We’d be happy to send you some for testing!
As always very profesional and still fun video.
Good video and interesting topic. I’ve been interested and impressed with the effects on car paint. I’ve been skeptical about all the manufactures claims of major differences between brands. My point, id be really curious to see you experiment with basic car ceramic coatings for instance the turtle wax hybrid solutions spray, ceramic coating. I’ve personally used that product and think it’s very decent.
Thanks for the solid testing! I would like to see it compared to dewaxed shellac as a top coat.
Jon, you are always on the lookout for product challenges which is one of the things that draws me to some of your videos. I have been using a carnauba wax / tung oil infusion that I make in my shop for going on 2 years now. The protection and sheen rival those of the ceramics as well as the UV protection. It is my go-to finish as a general. The recipe is a 5 parts tung oil to 1 part carnauba wax brought to melting point mixed and then cooled. I also use a variation of microcrystalline wax in place of the carnauba wax for lighter woods to reduce the ambering that the carnauba wax produces on blonder woods. It applies smoothly, and buffs in beautifully and in most situations is easily corrected. The reason I am saying all of this is that just maybe this could be more content to create. True hard waxes VS ceramics.🤔
Thanks I check it out
Was waiting for a good ceramics shootout! So torn about these products because I too have fallen in love with hard wax oils (osmo neutral in particular) for ease of application, adequate durability for most things aside from table tops, and reasonable price. Once you add the extra steps, expensive cost , and nuance of properly applying the ceramics, you are sort missing out on all the benefits that originally made me switch to hard wax oils from poly. So maybe these are nice for high traffic items ie tables, I can’t say I’m sold or see the benefit vs traditional water or oil based poly.
Been watching I think since you launched your channel. Keep the good work coming!
Thanks! Will do!
I grew up in an era where a gloss finish was highly desirable. I can remember the old Pledge Furniture Wax commercials showing the can reflecting on a table top like it was on a mirror. Despite the current trend towards matte I still love a gloss finish.
I currently apply 3 coats of gloss poly to my projects to get that deep shine effect, so these products are right up my alley.
Right. I always build coats with gloss because it is the most clear. Then if someone wants less gloss then put something on top. The clearer gloss base coats make it look better than applying a bunch of satin coats.
Very well explained. Thank you.
When are you and your neighbor gonna have another competition?? Can't wait
How about longevity? I'm not sure why this never gets pointed out with all these ceramic top coats. It's an ultra thin layer of glass that has to be reapplied regularly on automobiles where it has a chance to bond to painted metal. How often will it need to be reapplied to something like a wooden table that has a surface that expands and contracts and gets wiped down regularly with cleaning products? Also, it seemed like all your stain tests were acidic products. If you dig deeper on this front, incorporate something alkaline; that cuts through ceramic coatings faster than acid. Take that into consideration when cleaning your nano-coated table too (I wouldn't use something like Simple Green for example)
So do you suggest epoxy resin for a dining table coating instead ?
Thank for this. I just finished a table for a customer and they are asking for a little extra protection so I have been looking at these and will likely apply one.
I applied the coats of the Black Tail Studios N3 Nano coating on an outdoor table, and the arm rests of an outdoor sofa and 2 chairs. It was really easy to apply. It looks and feels GREAT. This table and chairs are under a covered porch so won't get direct rain, but they will get the occasional spray when it pours. They will also get a lot of sun... I can't speak for the longevity (since it's only been a few days), but so far, they look/feel great. I would certainly use it again.
The mullet joke made me chuckle. Touche, sir.
Kids allergic to napkins got me. I felt that in my soul. Thanks! Keep up the great videos!
Thank you. I have not tried any of these because they are so expensive.
I have friends who have used a couple of the products you tested, and was impressed but discovered a ceramic coating by Black Diamond (a popular epoxy and finish company sells their pigments) that sells for about 30 bucks for two 30ml bottles. At that price I decided to give it a try and, while I haven't done any long term tests or scientific studies, I can't tell the difference between that product and the others. There may be subtle differences, but I wouldn't call one better that the other and I'll continue to use the Black Diamond product unless I see a reason to spend multiple times that. No affiliation, just came across it when looking for a value option.
Ive been using a similar ceramic coating on our john deere farm tractors 🚜 it really helps the the paint from fading in the florida sun lol. It may be the same coating, its applied the exact same way. And yes you have to watch the lap lines with it lol
it will work or at least it did for me, Cerakote trim stuff.
I have a table supposedly coated in this stuff. Its hinestly not that great.
I had to stop using wood cleaner on it because it was coming off on the rag.
Great Video
Great video, thanks for all the clear, concise, video!
thanks
Still love the content man! Great video!
Excellent video with every attempt to be as fair and reasonable as possible. If you want greater protection and/or a higher sheen, then I would agree the currently available hard wax oils may not be sufficient. However, be patient for a few months because I think we will see developments on this.
I think, as you and others have said, that a more considered opinion about the cost/value of ceramic coatings on wood will have to wait until we see how they last under real conditions. I do know, from a major used car retailer, that their biggest profits don’t come from selling the car but selling ceramic coating protection - I would suggest that this is the snake oil sale effect.
In terms of hard wax oils, i have been using Natural Onecoat having seen it recommended by the Wood Whisperer. It is a 2 pack product that offers, to me, great advantages in terms of very fast cure - meaning I can move pieces around my workshop within an hour without ruining the finish and I don’t have to worry about dust contamination on top of curing finish. Looking at ease of use and sheen levels, I dont see a material difference between Natura and Osmo or Rubio. I can’t say how the Natura products will stand up to use after a year or more as I haven’t been using it long enough but I see no reason to believe that I will find any difference in that area also.
Where there is a major difference is cost. hard wax oils are expensive. They have been, in my view, very, almost unsustainably, expensive compared to other finishes. Even with all their advantages as a finish, cost has been an issue for me (having spent thousands of Rubio over the last couple of years whilst finishing oak in a barn conversion). However, along comes Natura and is significantly, very significantly, cheaper. If I had known about and bought Natura 2 years ago, I reckon they would be a thousand more in my pocket and a thousand less in the private investment company that owns Rubio (apologies but that’s a personal view about the role of private equity companies).
With hard wax oil now available much cheaper, plus agreeing that greater use and competition of ceramic coatings will reduce those prices, then I see the options and costs for furniture makers and wooden floor contractors getting better and better.
By the way, I have no commercial connection to any business - living on a pension, I would love sponsorship but would hate the compromises that it would bring.
A good WB conversion Varnish will cost about the same for equal coverage. So the ceramic coats are not unreasonable. But at the risk of sounding like a cranky old film finish guy, if your project is more than just a table top and has a lot of parts like say a mission dinning chair, I find spraying much faster and has better results. A note on feel. I don’t find a buffed out varnished table and a HWO table to be that much different. Sanding prep and using a raking light to “really make sure” makes more difference in feel than finishes in equivalent sheens.
Great video, the product does sound well worth it. IMHO. I need a new top on my kitchen table, do you have a video on that? Thanks
Appreciate the video's regarding finishes. I am preparing two walnut slabs for picnic table bench tops. Yes, many have stated walnut is not a great wood for outdoors, but "happy wife..." Therefore, I would appreciate your recommendations for how to treat the wood. Initially, I was considering an oil based finish with a paste wax top coat. My rational behind this approach, knowing it will require annual maintenance, oil/wax is easier to re-apply.
Would be very interested to see how these ceramic finishes impact the ability to do finish touch ups/repairs on finished furniture without needing to sand back to bare wood. Thats the biggest benefit of the hardwax oils for me. To refresh, all you need to do is clean the surface and wipe a fresh coat on. If i need to sand back to bare wood to refinish, im going back to the world of film finishes and skipping the ceramics.
Great video, thank you for that.
I really like this type of video since it gives us budding home hobbyists some critical information that will save us a lot of time and money. One critical piece of information that you didn't mention is what is the shelf-life of these products once they are opened.
Since my woodworking is a evening and weekend affair that has to fit around all of the other must do tasks, and as such projects can take a long time to finish with gaps between projects it might be several months between use of these products. An extra $20 per table top equivalent area is not a price barrier for me for the extra level of protection these give. But if these products go bad between using them on say the mid-century modern coffee table I plan to make first to gain experience on a smaller project and being able to finish building the same basic design scaled up for a dining room table, then $130 to coat just the coffee table is a problem.
Great video! I do worry however when coatings on wood seal them. I mean if you get water under polyurethane it starts to Bublé.
This is very interesting - I might put it on some outdoor table tops.
I live in a 4-season state. Brutal high desert sun and cold icey/snowy winters.
I wonder if I get better protection? 🤔
Thank you for bringing this up and doing the test. I'm glad that you also tested on finished like BLO which of course is not durable in any way.
I was wandering if putting the nano coat on the BLO have the same protection and look as putting the nano coating on Rubio monocoat? Thoughts?
I wonder if the UV protection is enough to help species, like padauk and purpleheart, maintain their vibrant colors. I feel like that would be a big value proposition
I also want to know if applying on top of dye stain that specifically says for indoor use only could make them viable for outdoor uses.
Great vid as always for us noobs, I always learn something.
Bought the blk studio nano, used over rubio. Beautiful. I don’t think it protects any better. Used on dining room table, cardboard box scratched finish and cats scratched finish. I used the table normally to see if its worth $100. I will use it again likely but over sold.
Id like to see the uv protection difference between these and spar urethane
Nice overview, had been wondering if Cerakote might be useful in some conditions.
God your videos are good, and not just well put together. I feel like I actually learn something from them. Your dedication to see an experiment through to completion is inspiring. Too many good things to say!
In Texas, we say p’CAHN. It’s kind of a big deal here.
On the other hand, PEE-can is what you use on the job site when the water is turned off.
Would like to hear your thoughts on using ceramic coatings on top of Waterlox for a wooden sink countertop.
I would be interested to see what happens with only 1 of either just the base or top coat of the 2 step process coatings
I just used the N3 on a walnut table I have at my vacation home. We rent the home out, and the table gets abused and was really looking worn. I sanded down to bare wood and went with a LED cured hard wax oil. I then went 5 coats of ceramic (2 hard and 3 top) and the table looks stunning. The last finish (hand rubbed poly) lasted 5 years. I’ll be sure to report back if this one lasts longer, but regardless I can tell you that I prefer the look of hard wax/ceramic to hand rubbed poly and it’s not even close. Way more depth of grain.
That was interesting stuff, especially on repairability, but my god! That mullet jump scare was horrifying!
I want to see how well it protects epoxy. Cam did a wonderful video on how STRONG epoxy is (as far as breaking) but I've never seen him or anybody else do a video on epoxy scratches/scuffs overtime with daily use…?
Really appreciate you sticking to the subject without all the comedy fluff BS
I wosh the natural maple in my home had the UV protection. Everything turns that yellow hue and you can see what it was originally when you open a cabinet door.
I’m always excited to see a new video as this is one of my favorite woodworking channels. I’d just like to say, since it wasn’t mentioned in the video, It’s worth noting that hydrophobic chemicals like this don’t ever break down. They are essentially forever chemicals. Their eerie ability to repel water is actually what makes them horrible. That’s not a great thing for the environment or the animals that inhabit it, including sapiens. I stopped using them on my car for that reason and won’t be covering my furniture in them either. Yes they look nice but I think the sheen of hard wax oils looks good too. And nobody is going to look at a beautiful piece you made and then think it’s not shiny enough. Only when you put samples side by side do we tease out arbitrary preferences like that. I don’t necessarily think this means we’re lying to ourselves about liking satin finishes, but I do get your point. It’s not really the sheen but what it does to the color that looks nice.
How easy do they apply on more complicated pieces with corners and details?
Would that protect shellack from alcohol?
Hi. Love your show. Sharing some experience here, having been a woodworker for a while now, and having tried every traditional method and UA-camr preferred method, I have personally found one principle that has lasted the test of time. Stick with traditional ways of finishing your woodworked projects. Whenever one is trying to find a "One Method to Rule Them All" solution, there is none. But the tried and true method of Sanding carefully through all your grit layers, then wetting your wood to raise the grain, then gently hand sanding the raised grain and wetting once more, and sanding once more, then oil based finish, wait, and layer again, seven times, then wait, and wax, buff, and your done one week later. Sucks I know, but the quality of finish, and the durability of lasting beauty, far outweighs the Rabbit vs. the Turtle, approach. Take your time, work in your love, and bask in the quality of your effort. Or just keep chasing rainbows, and running in circles.... One day, maybe you will catch your tail.
Thanks for this presentation. I hadn't thought along these lines at all.
I doubt I will be able to purchase any of the kits so I will talk to my local Automotive finish suppliers and maybe coat my Kununurra Slate table top which I had to strip and refinish some years ago after perfume was spilt on it.
Yeah I know women willingly apply this stuff to their skin, can't fix that. Fixing the finish was a total pain.
Nice video. I definitely agree hard wax oils look better with another topcoat and functionally need it. Can’t imagine a kitchen table with just Rubio. That said I guess I’m not sure what these ceramics offer that would make them better than a wipe on top urethane top coat like GF arm-r-seal. Get it in semi gloss and you have a more vibrant sheen.
Yes. We already have plenty of things that work very well like A&S which is pretty impressive, imho.
Great video! How long do these products store? As a hobby woodworker, I only finish about 1 project every 2 months or so. Even if I put this on every project I make, it’d probably take me 2-3 years to use up a bottle. Do any of the products have a long shelf life once opened and does that change by product?
Great unbiased reviews. Question- what Raking light are you using? Thank you... J
Here’s another question to ask. I’ve varnish multimillion dollar boats. It’s a constant job like painting the Brooklyn Bridge or something. It never ends because just about no matter what you put out there the UV and the salt eat it up. I wonder if you would do a test sometimeon a boat that’s used strictly in saltwater and see how it holds up in real life not on test strips. Thanks for a great video I look forward to more.
Awesome. Been reading a lot on finishes and still wrapping my head around what to use for what applications.
Does the following sound like a good solution for wooden floors?
• 2-3 coats walnut oil
• 4-5 coats Waterlox (e.g. 3 high-gloss, 2 satin)
I’ve always heard that pecan the way you pronounce it is the bucket you keep underneath your bed for when you don’t feel like walking all the way to bathroom in the middle of the night
He said it correctly
when you refinish your dining room table, will you just do the top, or the base as well? do you think a whole project needs to have the ceramic coat or just the wear areas?
OK, I( am trying to pick a oil finish for my pine floor on the gallery of my house. WOuld you recommend rubio or ? I want it to be as VOC free as possible. and of course, as lasting as an oil finish can be..
Another great video, informative, kinda funny, no bullshit. Im so skeptical of these coats but i think im just way to hard on my furniture. All table tops are just step stools for changing light bulbs right? But that hydrophobic feature is super cool! Ill be curious to hear in future videos how it holds up to the kiddos!
For what its worth I put a ceramic on my table saw 16 months ago. I treat my tools like you treat your furniture sounds like. It did really well which is why I decided to give it a go on wood
@@Lincolnstww 🤯 I remember you saying that in your other videos! Now I really want to try it and maybe treat my old Delta to some high class fanciness!
"Don't think of it as a finish, think of it as..." an epilogue? 😜😂