Does PALPATINE'S Return Ruin DARTH VADER'S Redemption? Star Wars Analysis
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- Опубліковано 14 жов 2024
- With Palpatine returning in The Rise Of Skywalker it brings up an interesting question as to whether that undermines Darth Vaders redemption in Return of the Jedi. I think there are plenty of good arguments on either side of this, but here is what I think about Anakin Skywalker's turn to the dark side and eventual rise back to the light, and if his redemption even had anything to do with Darth Sidious at all. I also talk briefly about the Chosen One Prophecy.
#DarthVader, #Redemption, #TheRiseOfSkywalker,
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Enjoy todays video! This was fun to think about.
-ATAT
AT-AT Chat Thanks for hearting my comment it means a lot I’m happy to be a subscriber! Also great video
@@puddingwars- I try to treat the subs right! haha
It's cool if you don't too. 👍👍. I just enjoy talking about Star Wars and seeing what y'all think too!
That's my goal!
It certainly was 👌
It's almost like Vader's redemption arc was achieved, and hear me out on this, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love!
Kiss me!
Yessss!
Who would you want to kill Palpatine instead then?
@@ericsantucci6934 Mace Windu?
Its more almost like ONLY the Post 2008 hardcore fandom view Star Wars' plot as ANYTHING but the Story of Darth Vader not Anakin and how Luke REDEEMED HIM not Anakin: redeeming himself. The confusion lies: in Post 2008 Anakin fanboys thinking SW is better served as a narrative about ANAKIN: even though that line of thought: FLAT-LINED SALES FINALLY: from 08-2012. And the brand was SOLD: when it was under the assumption: "It's Anakin's story".
And not a historical re-telling of two galactic conflicts. That JUST HAPPENED: to have magical based father son story: at it's core"
Trouble is: Lucas didn't know that from 1999-2012. Disney doesn't kow it fully aside from "There's SOME REASON: PT era everything: doesnt SELL HALF WHAT OT MERC DOES." Now...had they realized...
Maybe cause the IP hasnt aged movie wise since 1983...there's THAT.
And also: not realizing: the reason the Mainstream rejected PT lore in general: is because it wasn't about the creation of Darth Vader.
It's the story of a whiny kid: who even in ROTS: hasn't aged a day since the war started. Who in 11 minutes of screen time: goes from Loyal Kight and Friend: to Sith Lord: due to having no proof: palpatine MIGHT be able to save padme from a POSSIBLE DEATH.
THAT: TO THE MAINSTREAM: IS CALLED A MORON. And as of 2005: unintentionally Lucas retconned Darth VADER: into a moronic kid. And lol: were we see zero development as him as Vader...
It's easy for the mainstream...to pretend the PT: wasnt canon. Especially Gen 1 fans.
As if the PT is canon: all the OT was: was the end of a "balance" cycle: all involved were enslaved to. Vs a massive war: for Liberty and Freedom: not FATE.
It funny or sad...now SW Hardcore fans are SO unaware...they 1) either dont know or intentionally ignore this reality lol. 2) have no idea the lore their cheering...the lore they'll accept being retconned to hell in TCW2008...
Will NEVER SELL ENOUGH: to keep Star Wars...alive.
The proof: is the companies decline: from 1999-2012. And if that doesn't point out what no one wants to tell you kids...shrug:
Go back to living the lie: Star Wars being Anakin's story: will sell. One thing I guarantee tho: Disney KNOWING it wont sell as such:
Will NEVER let lore go back: to being Anakin centered: ever again. As perhaps the ONE good thing...
They dont know WHY...but they know...it wont SELL enough...
Lets hope the mandalorian grows up a bit more before the end. But if its coming from anywhere (maturity): look to the TV.
As the movies...are a joke Post 2005 lol.
"The Chosen One" becoming "The Chosen Bloodline."
That's an idea that I could get behind. Man I hope that Anakin and Luke both appear as Force Ghosts during an important scene.
Having a scene with every generation of the Skywalkers standing together might rival the portals scene in Endgame for me.
Also, the reason why Dark Empire was not good and undermined Anakin's Redemption is because not only was Palpatine resurrected (in a really dumb way, the clones of himself rub me the wrong way) it was because Luke fell to the Dark Side and became Palpatine's apprentice, and to add insult to injury he also started wearing Vader's charred armor. That's what undermined Anakin's Redemption.
While I personally don't care for Dark Empire all that much aside from some cool ship/vehicle designs, I feel like going Devil's Advocate here...
It's debatable whether or not Luke fell to the dark side completely in Dark Empire. He initially intended to feign it in an attempt to undermine and dismantle Palpatine's plan from within, and he did eventually succeed. That said, he was clearly starting to lose control by the time Leia reached out to him. The experience definitely cast a shadow on Luke in the ensuing years, causing him to adopt a more haunted and somber demeanor for quite some time. I like to think his relationship with Mara Jade helped him recover, as she of all people would know what it's like to struggle with a dark past. Also, Dark Empire was written before the prequels with its "Chosen One" prophesy, and Lucas himself was apparently okay with Palpatine returning as clones (some sources even claim he was the one who initially suggested the idea).
Unless the story is about Luke redeeming Vader not Anakin redeeming himself...as everyone outside the hardcore fandom: sees it as such. Then the redemption arc: falls on Luke vs Vader: and we remove the balance aspect because: *it doesn't sell. Hasn't sold. And won't sell going forward.*
The proof is the companies decline from 1999-2012 ending in its sale to Disney: as Star Wars being "Anakin's Story" had flat-out (over TIME: 13 years to be exact): FAILED: to sell at HALF the level OT merc did...
DURING THE PT ERA: but once OT merc basically flatlines in 2008 post that..."movie". Four years later: *Lucasfilm: is dead.* But.. *Lucas couldn't help it: applied the sunk cost fallacy and kept pushing Anakin more and MORE and MORE lol: until he Finally had a Post 2008 Anakin fanboy base: to defend it. Even if long term: it slowed then over a decade halted sales of any relevance leading Lucas to realize: that's checkmate.*
Hence = he sold. I always feel bad for those who see it as "Anakin's Redemption" and not Luke's Redemption...of Darth Vader.
As it shows a lack of awareness for 80% of the cash these films need...ad the people: who control that 80%: are "normies".
And normies: don't see the PT: the same way the Post 2008 hardcore Fandom do...it's only sad:
*The new fandom: will never figure that out. As if they accept it: it means every thing they cheered for the last 13 years...lead to the End...of the very thing:*
*They cheered.*
Benjamin Keith I find your use of colons... disturbing
@@reecehickman5573 Con...gratulations for being disturbed...via text. I'm sure you weren't alone.
*Here's a cookie: it's raisin. Good job.*
Benjamin Keith I wasn’t really disturbed I was quoting the movie you moron. Your writing is horrible either way though.
"There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for one’s friends."
Yeah but tell that to the Post 2008 Anakin fanboys...you'll get a TREAT lol.
Vader's redemption, in my eyes, was always him saving his son, not so much him killing Sidious. Saving what we love, not fighting what we hate
Yes. But there are some people who thinks there is no difference between Holdo's sacrifice and Finn's "not letting them win".
@@davidv4018 Those people are correct. Holdo took a massive risk that may or may not work to give her friends time to escape. This was somehow heroic. Finn tried to do something risky that may or may not work to give his friends time to escape. Now he's a schmuck. The movie can't decide which is which.
Who should kill him instead though?
OT - Luke Redeemed his father.
PT - Retconned Anakin "saved himself" and completed the Chosen One Prophecy.
St: Who cares? Because Balance and Chosen One lore doesn't sell enough: to keep this brand afloat.
Disney's proof? Lucasfilm's/arts decline: from 1999-2012: while pushing and failing to get mainstream and Gen 1 hardcore fans on BOARD: with:
Star Wars is about Anakin: vs Star Wars is about Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker.
One out sells the other: *just over two point five to one. Dinsey knows this. It's why they're dismantling the Chosen One Arc.* They dont know WHY it doesnt sell lol:
They just know it doesnt sell enough.
And as to why: Normie and Gen 1 Fans see Star Wars as Luke's story to redeem his father. The trouble form everything Post 1999 is:
that sells FAR better: then "Oh yeah "balance" so its all fate...the OT is just the End of a Prophecy that has zero bearing in the OT and is mentioned ZERO times."
Because in 1983:
*It didnt exist.*
But in 2019 lol: DECADES after the loss of the Gen 1 Eu and sales dropping originally (2008-2012)...
Only the sale gave this brand hope...once the public saw we'd stayed at PT levels of story telling...it began to bottom out:
As it did: from 2008-2012: already.
@@mbeacom21 No, you don't know how to watch a movie. Holdo had a big ass ship with brand new shield technology whereas Finn's vehicle was so flimsy it was melting and falling apart around him. Poe called off the attack because he could see that it was pointless, so why can't you? You actually believe throwing a human body with a few pieces of scrap metal into a miniature Death Star canon is going to do anything? Rose cared too much about Finn to watch him throw away his life like that, that's why she intercepted him.
Also dude honestly your head cannon makes more sense than everything else I've heard. 👍
I just realised Vader’s force-ghost would be younger than his son’s
ardaraith This is so weird 😂
If you take the special editions.
No they were the same age Anakin was 23 when he became Vader and At the Time of ANH Luke was 19 years old. At the Time of ESB Luke was 22 years old. At the Time of ROTJ he was 23 years old.
When Anakin redeemed himself, the Sith that was darth Vader was destroyed.
So the prophecy was true, from a certain point of view
Love this answer!!
@@ATATChat Thanks!
I find their lack of faith disturbing...
It’s ok one day they’ll see the light
I just recently found your channel and love your videos! Keep it up! 👍
Welcome
Glad you could make it 😊👍
Thanks so much Ryan!
-Maybe Palpatine wrote the Prophecy (he did everything anyways).
-Maybe the prophecy is just wrong (like the jedi were wrong)
-Maybe Anakin brought balance when he killed the jedi (At the end of 3 there were like two jedi and two siths)
David V ... damn
Its more almost like ONLY the Post 2008 hardcore fandom view Star Wars' plot as ANYTHING but the Story of Darth Vader not Anakin and how Luke REDEEMED HIM not Anakin: redeeming himself. The confusion lies: in Post 2008 Anakin fanboys thinking SW is better served as a narrative about ANAKIN: even though that line of thought: FLAT-LINED SALES FINALLY: from 08-2012. And the brand was SOLD: when it was under the assumption: "It's Anakin's story".
And not a historical re-telling of two galactic conflicts. That JUST HAPPENED: to have magical based father son story: at it's core"
Trouble is: Lucas didn't know that from 1999-2012. Disney doesn't kow it fully aside from "There's SOME REASON: PT era everything: doesnt SELL HALF WHAT OT MERC DOES." Now...had they realized...
Maybe cause the IP hasnt aged movie wise since 1983...there's THAT.
And also: not realizing: the reason the Mainstream rejected PT lore in general: is because it wasn't about the creation of Darth Vader.
It's the story of a whiny kid: who even in ROTS: hasn't aged a day since the war started. Who in 11 minutes of screen time: goes from Loyal Kight and Friend: to Sith Lord: due to having no proof: palpatine MIGHT be able to save padme from a POSSIBLE DEATH.
THAT: TO THE MAINSTREAM: IS CALLED A MORON. And as of 2005: unintentionally Lucas retconned Darth VADER: into a moronic kid. And lol: were we see zero development as him as Vader...
It's easy for the mainstream...to pretend the PT: wasnt canon. Especially Gen 1 fans.
As if the PT is canon: all the OT was: was the end of a "balance" cycle: all involved were enslaved to. Vs a massive war: for Liberty and Freedom: not FATE.
It funny or sad...now SW Hardcore fans are SO unaware...they 1) either dont know or intentionally ignore this reality lol. 2) have no idea the lore their cheering...the lore they'll accept being retconned to hell in TCW2008...
Will NEVER SELL ENOUGH: to keep Star Wars...alive.
The proof: is the companies decline: from 1999-2012. And if that doesn't point out what no one wants to tell you kids...shrug:
Go back to living the lie: Star Wars being Anakin's story: will sell. One thing I guarantee tho: Disney KNOWING it wont sell as such:
Will NEVER let lore go back: to being Anakin centered: ever again. As perhaps the ONE good thing...
They dont know WHY...but they know...it wont SELL enough...
Lets hope the mandalorian grows up a bit more before the end. But if its coming from anywhere (maturity): look to the TV.
As the movies...are a joke Post 2005 lol.
Benjamin Keith goddamn you talk too much
This is the same as asking if yoda is on ketamine
Yes he is
"A choice to be better."
AYEEEE
Battlefront 2 reference?
@@ReySkywalker2 yup, but it pops up again in Resistance Reborn
I love this.
The idea of the Chosen “One” prophecy actually being that of the Chosen “Bloodline” has always made perfect sense to me. This continuity running through the one cursed/blessed family is possibly my favourite thing about this whole story.
I’ve always loved the thought that this legend, that existed long before even they themselves did, predicted ALL of this, but was misinterpreted for decades, finally coming into focus three generations down the line, when it becomes clear that it takes more than just the one individual to bring that elusive balance to the Force, to themselves, and to the galaxy itself.
Of course it takes more than the one to do that.
There a reason a weighing scale has two sides.
Thank you for putting this together, it was wonderful.
Dude. I just discovered your channel and THANK YOU FOR THIS. This is what I’ve been trying to tell people since this became an argument.
I have been waiting for a video like this for a while!
My dood
The prophecy "The Chosen One will bring about the end of the Sith" is wrong. It's "The Chosen WONG will bring about the end of the Sith" as in Wong, the true sorcerer supreme from the MCU.
Crossover confirmed.
Haha
Well said. I couldn't have said it better myself. I love your level headed thinking and it is on point.
I'll be following you with great interest.
I’m just gonna say if old Palps gets anywhere near Rey he’s dead.
[Hands Ben Solo a pocket knife] Get 'em Ben go save your girl.
lmao
Watching this videos getting ready for the rise of Skywalker, I share a lot of your views and wish more star wars fan were as open minded and level headed, specially on the whole chosen one aspect, finding your vids has been a blessing, you got yourself a new sub
I happen to believe in the reincarnation theory (Anakin=Ben), so no...Anakin's redemption isn't ruined because in my opinion his arc is not finished yet. But either way Lucas Films and GL have already said numerous times that Anakin is the chosen one. I'm pretty sure whatever happens in TROS is only going to make that even clearer.
Maaaaaybeee. You aren't wrong. But it was amended for rebels with Luke.
@@ATATChat Filoni said that is just Kenobi's pov. Just like it's Luke's pov that Ben Solo was the chosen one. But there was only one chosen one and that is Anakin.
I agree with you completely Palpatine may still be alive but it doesn’t destroy what Darth Vader did he saved Luke. Also I feel that Anikan will talk to Ben and tell him to not fail Rey like he failed Padme and to finish what he started and destroy Palpatine once and for all.
It doesn't destroy what Vader did to save Luke, but it certainly reduces the impact of it.
And speaking of light and dark I got myself some Breyers Reylo ice cream. Mmm totally “satisfying “
Yummy 😋
Yes
Nope 🤷♀️
Dude, the way you think about Star Wars is a revelation to me every time! I love your content!
I used to have a problem with Palpatine returning in the flesh, until I realized a few things: I now look at Leia surviving TLJ as foreshadowing, introducing the possibility of someone as strong in the Force as Palpatine surviving the Death Star explosion. That, and each trilogy ends with the return of someone presumed dead: the Sith in the PT (as in Revenge of), Anakin in the OT (as in Return of), and now Palpatine in the ST (as in Rise of...well, him too in addition to Ben). Death, rebirth, & resurrection are huge in Star Wars. Also, "darkness rises, & light to meet it," so since this is the end we get both extremes resurfacing leading to lasting balance being finally achieved.
I look at the Chosen One prophecy as more for the audience to know who the story is mainly about. It's a common story trope used to point to the central character(s). In-universe, I see it as an ideological construct of the Jedi that they took too seriously out of an arrogant belief that they were infallible, which led to their downfall.
It’s not about fighting what we hate, it’s about saving what we love
Love your take and interpretation my friend. Gives me great pleasure watching and listening to your body of work. A true Star Wars Fan MTFBWYA from you Star Wars Family in the UK
I don’t think it diminishes Vader’s redemption. I think it makes a very interesting close to the saga to defeat that evil that created Vader. I want Ben Solo to straight mess the emperor up beyond all recognition for all the manipulation and B.S. he pulled that was the cause for all the pain the Skywalkers have suffered. It makes the end of the story super intense and dramatic, and his return connects all of these stories together. Plus he’s a cool villain one you really love to hate!
Also, people can argue as much as they want that this doesn't "destroy" Vader's redemption. I don't even disagree with that. But I would argue that it absolutely reduces it.
Definitely a fair argument
Nicely put, Nick! 😊 For sure, the "one" could mean "one group" as opposed to "one individual". That's the thing about prophecies... they're notoriously vague. LOL
Great video!
Pablo Hidalgo said that "characters can be wrong" when asked if Obi-Wan was in correct in saying Luke was the chosen one. But perhaps Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were both correct, and it really is more of a chosen bloodline.
What if they explained, Anakin DID bring balance to the force, but this doesn't mean defeating the Sith. What if it means every generation there will be a perfect balace with a light side user and a dark side user? No sith, no jedi. Just the force. Anakin did what he was destined to do. But hey, that's just a theory, a film theory
Video-“read this book, great redemption story, check it out”
Me-“I’m okay, you probably have a video on that too”
MY HEADCANON
After being extremely weakened and wounded by Anakin’s sacrifice on the DSII he escapes in his personal ship. He doesn’t continue ruling the Empire again because 1. He was nearly dead, he couldn’t breath or walk and most importantly 2. He lost his apprentice, Vader, because he both turned to the light and died and therefore Palpatine would be vulnerable to Luke as Luke is one of the only people who could pose a threat to Palpatine. Because of this realisation that now he lost Vader and can’t risk fighting Luke he went into hiding and allowed the Galaxy to believe he’s dead.
He hides on a distant planet in the unknown regions where he knew of a Sith temple. This would be his base of operations for the next 30 years. He first acquired Snoke as his puppet. He promised Snoke wealth and power in ruling an Empire along side him. Snoke accepts the offer and is given orders to travel to the imperial remnant and reforge and refine the empire out of those palpatine allowed to survive The Battle Of Jakku. He allowed Snoke to kill anyone who stood in his way and this allowed Snoke to rule the first order.
Meanwhile Palpatine is forging a Sith Fleet of Death Star Destroyers that can each destroy entire planets.
Years pass and Palpatine and Snoke continue to work together until after 6-7 years Palpatine senses the son of Leia and Han, Vaders grandson, Ben Solo. He commands Snoke to manipulate, turn and take on this boy to be Snokes enforcer. (Note thag Snoke and Kylo are never made sith) Snoke follows his order and tracks down Ben solo and begins manipulating him through the force. Ben has dreams about Snoke and slowly but surely Snoke lures Ben to turn to him. He is knighted, Kylo Ren.
Years later Palpatine senses another Force Child the same as Anakin was nearly half a century ago. A being born of the force itself from a virgin mother. This child is a girl and named Rey. Palpatine again Commands Snoke to find this girl and being her to him. When Snoke is told this he questions why and Palpatine explains that, in his exile, Palpatine has been researching more Sith Alchemy and learned of a way to siphon the life force of a being, however this being had to be a force child, like Anakin and now Rey. Ripping the life force from someone would rejuvenate Palpatine so that Luke or Ben Solo or Snoke would pose no threat to him and he will only then finally return to the Galaxy rule his refined Empire after nearly 30 years. Snoke accepts his masters task and begins tracking down a force sensitive girl.
Snoke’s intentions however were not the same as Palpatines. Being power hungry, Snoke didn’t want Palpatine to return and rule along side him or even worse kill him and steal what Snoke believes to be his Empire now. He thought about just not searching for the girl, Rey, but he knew Palpatine would just find her himself. No, he needed to find the girl and kill her so Palpatine cannot find her and use his knowledge of the force to bring himself back to power.
During the events of TFA Snoke wasn’t interested in the girl Kylo Ren found and kidnapped from Takodana, until Kylo Ren tells Snoke that she was unnaturally strong with the force with no training. She was able to resist Kylo Ren. When Snoke here’s this he seems angry and panicked. His attention becomes fully interested in having Rey brought to him. In The Last Jedi Snoke finally has the girl Palpatine spoke about years before infront of him. He would finally be able to kill her but first he had to force mind probe her to learn where Luke was hiding. Once he acquired the knowledge he seemed he attempted to have Kylo Ren kill her but due to the unforeseen connection Rey and Ben had, Ben instead Killed Snoke.
(This is my theory on how: Palpatine is the mastermind behind the Sequel trilogy as well as the Prequel trilogy and Original trilogy; Palptine and Snoke are connected and how Rey is so strong with the force (she’s a child of the force like Anakin) and how Palpatine is the main villain throughout the entire saga. I’m TRoS he would lure Rey to him and try to use the force to kill her whilst rejuvenating himself but perhaps Ben will save her and kill him
What if Palpatine got almost killed, went to a Hidden planet in the Unknown regions and pulls a Luke Skywalker "i only know one truth, it's time for the sith to end".
I'll attempt to answer before seeing the video. In essense, No. Palpatine's return does not ruin Vader's Redemption. Vader's redemption was in saving his son, Luke, not in killing the Emperor.
I like to think that the original direction for these movies would’ve been Rey (light) battling with her inner dark, and Kylo (dark) battling with his inner light.
I’m not a big fan of any of these sequels, but it begs the question of what could’ve been with one director and one mapped out plan. Shame..
I would like a follow up video or what you think since the movie is out
No, we didn’t read about the contingency plan because I shouldn’t have to read supplementary material to further understand the films. Something as critical as the emperors contingency plan shouldn’t have been left out of the force awakens but included in it.
Valid. Im the kinda guy that just flocks to books the second one comes out. Not everyones into that kinda thing. BUT, I do think palpatine coming back always comes up in some form whether the comics of in the the old legends novels.
They’re entitled to have their preference but they often (not all of them) but a number of them struggle to be reasonable about their dismay with the sequel trilogy and use it as a personality
And in addition they’re just very hard on themselves and take themselves too seriously
If you're a big enough fan that you need more answers, research those answers. You don't even need to buy the books. Look it up on Google or UA-cam.
Not everyone needs those answers to enjoy the movie. People who have never seen Star Wars loved the movies and watch the others.
But Palpatine isn't in TFA, so why spoil his return by telling people that stuff?
And this Sheev Palpatine we are talking about. The guy who orchestrated the fall of the Republic and the Jedi, do we really think he wouldn't have a plan?
The only redemption I ever think about is redeeming coupon codes...
To me it doesnt undo anything, it simply to me undermines the effort and celebration at the end of rotj, cause we now know that he survived and is still alive somewhere in space at that time, vader still turned good and they still won, but it just makes it now that at the end of rotj they won the battle but they still are going to fight the war when he returns in tros
As expected there’s a dislike ... that’s ok 👌 but you might want to watch this video all the way through you might learn something though it might be challenging to your own views deep down you know very well that redemption has and will always be to this day very critical to Star Wars because that’s what makes Star Wars but if you still are not convinced by the end of the video totally fine but don’t pretend redemption doesn’t exist in Star Wars . All right.
First off if this true way to go for Lucas Film and Star Wars Stuff Twitter going all out setting the record straight that Ben Solo is definitely a Skywalker and nothing more...just like his mother and uncle before him but yet has his Papas last name and his heart and that same heart that’s going to bring him back to the light. So if anything Return of the Jedi gave us hope because that’s what it’s supposed to do it’s called return of the Jedi for a reason just like how Rise of Skywalker is what it’s called for a REASON! Case closed now go tell it to the mountain
The problem comes down to this:
Anakin IS the chosen one, George Lucas eventually confirmed it. But you know, Disney doesn't give a shit
Well, tell that to Dave Filoni who adapted that theory and chose to make Luke the chosen one in Rebels. It keeps shifting depending on the generation. And thats perfectly find. TBH the chosen one prophecy has always been lame to me.
I'm curious thought. Does Snoke have something to do with Palpatin? I mean, I love what we get so far, but I would like to know his back story.
He used to be younger.
So my estimated guess, he was a pawn like dooku. Definitely more powerful for sure, but a pawn nonetheless. I'd even argue he could have been a former member of the church of the force or an old Darkside acolyte.
i felt the same n struggled with the same concept in Dark Empire's comic n other post RotJ EU. but i agree with u. n its not something everyone can understand.
Yea, at the end of the day some will still be bummed by the addition of Palpy
@@ATATChat They're called PT fanboys.
You gotta tell me the name of this ambient track. It has to be my favourite of all the ones you’ve used. It’s beautiful, and it fits this perfectly.
I know it's from the album galactic delivery by the artist Ulas.
THANK YOU!!!!!!!
No, thank you!
The main issue was that it retcons the chosen one prophecy. Anakin was created by the force in response to Darth Plagues attempt to create life and will a being of his design into being. Anakin was the defense mechanism to an act that went in direct violation of the nature of the force.
Antis: Wahhh! Wahhh! Disney's ruined Star Wars! It's ruined my childhood! Wahhh!"
Me: "Mom! The antis have gotten into the soy milk again."
Oh those poor darlings. Anyway on a positive note Miss Molly have you seen Marriage Story yet if you haven't you must it's highly recommended.
@@Rey20171 I'll have to do that 😊
It wasn’t about Vader destroying what he hated, but saving what he loved. I feel like I’ve heard that somewhere before...
very much agreed. The "defeat of evil" is someting that highly differs from someone's redemption. All Vader wanted was to save his son from evil, not just "kill the baddie"
I think many so-called "fans" of star wars are only interested in appearances and do not fully grasp the deeper messages the whole saga send us. I'm afraid much of this misconception is due to the prequels....I don't really hate them, but they over-simplified things and made SW more about about "cool fights" than anything else
Its more almost like ONLY the Post 2008 hardcore fandom view Star Wars' plot as ANYTHING but the Story of Darth Vader not Anakin and how Luke REDEEMED HIM not Anakin: redeeming himself. The confusion lies: in Post 2008 Anakin fanboys thinking SW is better served as a narrative about ANAKIN: even though that line of thought: FLAT-LINED SALES FINALLY: from 08-2012. And the brand was SOLD: when it was under the assumption: "It's Anakin's story".
And not a historical re-telling of two galactic conflicts. That JUST HAPPENED: to have magical based father son story: at it's core"
Trouble is: Lucas didn't know that from 1999-2012. Disney doesn't kow it fully aside from "There's SOME REASON: PT era everything: doesnt SELL HALF WHAT OT MERC DOES." Now...had they realized...
Maybe cause the IP hasnt aged movie wise since 1983...there's THAT.
And also: not realizing: the reason the Mainstream rejected PT lore in general: is because it wasn't about the creation of Darth Vader.
It's the story of a whiny kid: who even in ROTS: hasn't aged a day since the war started. Who in 11 minutes of screen time: goes from Loyal Kight and Friend: to Sith Lord: due to having no proof: palpatine MIGHT be able to save padme from a POSSIBLE DEATH.
THAT: TO THE MAINSTREAM: IS CALLED A MORON. And as of 2005: unintentionally Lucas retconned Darth VADER: into a moronic kid. And lol: were we see zero development as him as Vader...
It's easy for the mainstream...to pretend the PT: wasnt canon. Especially Gen 1 fans.
As if the PT is canon: all the OT was: was the end of a "balance" cycle: all involved were enslaved to. Vs a massive war: for Liberty and Freedom: not FATE.
It funny or sad...now SW Hardcore fans are SO unaware...they 1) either dont know or intentionally ignore this reality lol. 2) have no idea the lore their cheering...the lore they'll accept being retconned to hell in TCW2008...
Will NEVER SELL ENOUGH: to keep Star Wars...alive.
The proof: is the companies decline: from 1999-2012. And if that doesn't point out what no one wants to tell you kids...shrug:
Go back to living the lie: Star Wars being Anakin's story: will sell. One thing I guarantee tho: Disney KNOWING it wont sell as such:
Will NEVER let lore go back: to being Anakin centered: ever again. As perhaps the ONE good thing...
They dont know WHY...but they know...it wont SELL enough...
Lets hope the mandalorian grows up a bit more before the end. But if its coming from anywhere (maturity): look to the TV.
As the movies...are a joke Post 2005 lol.
Right-On
I don’t think so.
-He did restore balance, but it didn’t say he would bring balance forever. Plus Anakin broke a lot of rules, perhaps since he used his feelings and had a lineage it undid the prophesy to some extent. I think The Chosen One could mean the genealogy of Skywalker will destroy the Sith and being balance to the force. I could be wrong, but this is the approach I would use.
6 Months later, I'm still triggered at the thought the Video Title Suggests. Anakin Skywalker's redemption was not killing palpatine and himself to rid the galaxy of the sith. His redemption was killing palpatine to save his own son. Palpatine coming back means nothing to Anakin, because he saved his son from death. If it were option A, sith extinction and all that, then yeah it would undermine it. But that's not the story we're being told.
Exactly
Finally. Someone who gets it.
I have very mixed feelings on this because there's two things in question: Was Vader's redemption undermined and was the chosen one prophecy undermined? I think Vader's redemption is absolutely not undermined. Saving his son was his redemption, not killing Palpatine. Killing Palpatine was definitely important, but it wasn't what redeemed him. Saving is own flesh and blood was. But the chosen one prophecy is what I have a problem with. Palpatine's body died yes, but his spirit was always there, according to the novelization, which therefore never destroyed the Sith, and that was the whole point of the prophecy. And in Rebels when it's talked about if Luke is the chosen one, I just think it was a reference to who was chosen to face Vader and Sidious, not the actual prophecy. The prophecy states you are born of no father, and we know that doesn't apply to Luke. So, to me, it undermines the prophecy, but not Vader's redemption arc
Valid POV
No
The emperor’s plan was to undo the act of the chosen one of destroying the sith. His main goal was to bring back the sith. He evens says “Nothing will stop the RETURN of the Sith” telling us the sith were destroyed and were merely trying to return
*He is inevitable*
Yeah, well we are Reylo
I think something I see a lot of fans missing right now is the concept of redemption- especially surrounding Kylo Ren. The idea that redemption will somehow make him perfect and good and mean all is forgiven and he can do whatever... Is just wrong? Redemption doesn't mean forgiveness, redemption doesn't mean a sudden shift. Like Vader, he has to make the right choice.
ALSO I think Vader's redemption was kinda BS, just because I wanted MORE of it. He saves his son and then kicks it, and I would have liked to see, idk, more of that story. Which is what I hope we will get in Rise of Skywalker- a more complete story of redemption and those choices.
Well I guess that's an interesting way of looking at it. Sadly though Anakin didn't appear as anything more than a voice in ROTS. They could've gone much deeper with it all but instead it was a load of fanservice and the emperor just recited old dialogue and looked silly. I really wish they'd just left the past in the past and made it about some new threat. Also bloodlines is really dumb. The original trilogy it felt like anyone could be a Jedi, their family wasn't important, because the force was a part of everything. Then in the prequels they made it all about Midichlorians and power levels and it wasn't magical anymore. Then in the sequels they made it magical again only to turn around and say, well unless you're a Skywalker or a Palpatine you're not special. Except with Finn who they made force sensitive just to say, we'll look maybe you can be but you won't get to be the heroic Jedi.
Kylo Ren: I will finish what you started
And then fade away
I absolutely agree with you: Palpatine's continued existence doesn't diminish or negate Anakin's turn from darkness in Return of the Jedi. He still made the supreme sacrifice to save his son. In the moment he observed his son dying at Palpatine's hands, he made his fateful choice, and THAT was his moment of redemption. Whatever the outcome, he had chosen light over darkness, goodness over evil.
What troubles me now, with Ben Solo's arc is that if the leaked story details for TROS are true, his redemption - in whatever form it takes - may amount to nothing. I can't say more without dropping what may be a major spoiler for those who've done their best to avoid them, but all I CAN say is that I don't want his redemption to be in vain. He has been the rope in a tug of war between the Light and Dark Sides of the Force, and I want him to experience the same defining moment his grandfather did.
Yea that's my fear too. I don't like the idea of all this Kylo Ren abuse stories coming out, then they just kill him. Id be bummed.
@@ATATChat do you hold some value to the LEAKS?
My writing has gotten away from me, I need someone to have a look at it. 20k words. It's gone straight to Kylo having a conversation with Hux about the Sith Creed being at odds with the First Order's end Goal. Send help.
I agree that it doesn't minimize Vader's sacrifice
Pffff.... Who cares? He is in a cyborg suit! That's all you need to accept his return. Love your video BTW.
Maybe not the redemption, fucking obviously, but the prophecy. It’s pretty clear that they had the idea of Anakin being the chosen one when they made revenge of the Sith. Because it ties in with Return of the Jedi perfectly. So unless Anakin somehow comes back and kills him again in the new one, it’s nothing but a cash grab by JJ to get more people to see it. Actually it already is because he wasn’t originally planned to be in these movies anyway
I mean, did Anakin not bring balance to Mortis?
Really? Anyone in the Star Wars universe could be redeemed? Could Palpatine turn to the Light? :P
Hmm, yeah it is very sticky. As I understand it, people did have issues with Palpatine returning back then, but Dark Empire was apparently swept under the rug and barely referenced again in later stories.
Back when I first heard about Palpatine cloning himself I thought that is what the Clone Wars referred to. :D A young Palpatine with all the wisdom and knowledge of the Force of the old would be hard to beat, right?
After I understood what it actually was it seemed like a neat novelty at first. Palpatine comes back and turns Luke to the Dark Side and Leia has to kick his ass and turn him back! And boy, now that I think about it I can see the reaction of the usual suspects to this if this was the sequel trilogy. "Unoriginal rip off of the OT! Palpatine brought back due to desperation! Luke's character destroyed! Luke had to be rescued by a woman!!!!1"
Later on as I thought about it the story does seem pretty bad and seems to undermine the original trilogy and Vader's sacrifice. I mean the whole thing of him coming back with clones like that just seems cheesy itself. That said I never actually got around to reading Dark Empire so maybe it comes off better than it sounds. I know Alex of Star Wars Explained is not a fan, or of Palpatine coming back. I'm pretty skeptical myself.
I know Anakin acted to save Luke and not to kill Palpatine, but still, it's kinda eehhh for me. It seems to undermine and devalue a big moment. Of course you could say that about the Empire being defeated and then the First Order coming back too. I dunno. Something about Palpatine himself coming back just feels wrong.
The Chosen One prophecy is another Prequels invention/retcon and kind of annoying one. Like I've seen some people say, they liked it better when Anakin was just a guy who made some bad decisions. He wasn't the greatest Jedi ever or anything and it wasn't because of being conceived by the Force and being the Chosen One, but just a strong talented Jedi that Palpatine managed to turn to the Dark Side and against the other Jedi. Theres also little to no explanation for his turn besides "seduced by the Dark Side," "took the quick and easy path." Though Leia mentions her mother seeming sad seems like a clue... but then she somehow remembers this from the womb according to the prequels. Oops lol.
Still, it's a prequel invention/retcon we have to live with and it has to be dealt with. Anakin was supposed to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force, and at this he apparently failed. But like you said, even in-universe in the very same prequels, characters are questioning this prophecy, and this is seen more in other canon content. So this part can possibly be written off. Or like you said, Anakin somehow plays a role in defeating Palpatine in TROS. There is that quote by Leeland Chee that they changed Anakin's ghost to Hayden Christiensen for a very good reason.
It's possible this refers to Force Ghost Anakin appearing in George's 2000s plans for the sequels, and by this time, fans would be more familiar with Hayden as Anakin than as he appeared for a few minutes in Return of the Jedi. Making a CGI character wouldn't be the best either, and recasting old Anakin would just be confusing.
So maybe Lucasfilm is using this idea and Anakin may appear. Fingers crossed.
As it is, Palpatine was definitely meant to die there originally. Palpatine was going to the main villain of the original sequel trilogy as conceived by George in the 80s, and Luke would meet his twin sister who was trained from birth on the other side of the Galaxy, and has to drag Luke along for the adventure. He would be playing catchup to her obviously. Cue more complaining by the usual suspects at Luke being shown to be inferior to a woman!!!1
But then George decided to not make the sequels at that time due getting burned out and wanting to focus on raising his kids. So he killed off Palpatine and made Leia the sister to wrap everything up.
But then how was Leia able to hear Luke at Cloud City? Was it the whole "you only need one telepath to have a convo" idea? That person can hear and talk back to a telepath but that non-telepath wouldn't be able to do that on their own. I dunno. Unless Leia was going to have the Force too despite not being Luke's sister. x_x
I know some people don't care because they like Palpatine and are just excited that he's back.
Assuming we aren't getting a lot of misdirection so far - The cloaked person isn't Palpatine, the voiceover is recordings and Palpatine is getting revenge with plans set beyond the grave (talk about massive trolling lmao), or the Sith haunting theory is in fact still true. If it's none of that and Palpatine really DID somehow survive in his physical body, if Palpatine is still alive but is in such a weakened and pathetic state, he is only a threat in terms of the scheming and psychological aspects, then that might be okay. But we'll just have to see what the situation is and how TROS presents and executes it. I hope to be pleasantly surprised.
Whelp, I got on another tangent again. But it was fun and your videos are usually thought provoking. :)
I love your tangents
@@ATATChat Thanks. :D
The chosen one prophecy is to bring balance to the force, not to kill palpatine specifically
George Lucas has stated that Anakin is the "Chosen One", so I don't see there being any dispute.
George Lucas also stated that there was no story ever planned after ROTJ. George Lucas is the most contrary creative in the world. He also amended old quotes from currently existing Star Wars books to include him saying it was "always" a 9 part story.
Anyway, thanks for playing. 🙂
@@ATATChat Actually George did say way back during the OT days there would be 9 episodes. At one point I think I there was 12. But I think then it was a basic outline and we know there was no grand master plan, as the stories for each of the original trilogy movies changed as they were being made. The ideas for the sequels also changed from the 80s to the 2000s, though George gave up making them altogether due to fan backlash to the prequels.
BUT George is full of it and changed his story many times. :) Saying that "Darth Vader" alluded to "Dark Father," when that name originally referred to a random Imperial officer in early versions of the story, and in an early version of Empire Strikes Back, Anakin's Force Ghost would knight Luke as a Jedi, meaning he wasn't Vader. So that big reveal was always a retcon, which is why the "certain point of view" explanation comes about hahaha.
I think that if in ROTJ Vader had failed to kill the emperor and died in the process he would still be redeemed. He finally did the right thing
i dosn't matter how many claim that the new movies are ruining legacy characters. To me these movies respect more the legacy characters compare to the new terminator movies. Oh so you hate that they kill luke skywalker and han solo? well at least they didn't kill them off screen like sarah connor in terminator 3 or john connor in the first 5 minutes of dark fate. oh so you don't like luke skywalker beeing a cynical douche despite he had reasons why he choosse to be like that? well at least they didn't turn him into a stright out bad guy for no reason like they did with john connor in genesys. oh so don't like to see these characters in their old version to past the torch to a new generation? well at least they didn't recast them as steriotypical hollywood good looking actors like christian bale, emilia clarke and jai courtney in both salvation and genesys, and if you though all the fight these characters go through in the originals was for nothing ... you cleaaaarly never saw dark fate. I'll tell you if the new movies were like any of the terminator sequels then i will join your hate groop.
PD: plus dark fate was writting by cameron... so yeah fuck the rule of "the franchise always need to be controled by his creator" even the creator can fuck his own creation
If that really happened in Dark Fate then ooof. I would usually complain about spoilers, but ehh, you may have just saved the money and time of seeing it in the theater, not that I had high hopes anyway after 3, Salvation, and Genesys.
You cant excuse incompetence with even greater incompetence. That would be like saying in a court case, "yea....this murderer is evil and all but at least he isnt a serial killer so he isnt that bad." Both acts are terrible period.
@@elijahlee3610 movies and crimes are diferent things, one its ficitonal art and the the other its a fact. Even if you think your opinion is a "fact" that dosn't change that your are watching films wrong by comparing them with real life crimes, hey if you don't want these "crimes" to be commit, then why don't you take a gun a shoot both rian johnson and katheleen kennedy in the face to prevent more "crimes" like these to be commited... im sure you will praise by everyone including the morally thinking police...
Look i hate the new terminator movies like the guy next to me, but that dosn't turn them in crimes, just movies that i wish i could have loved, so insted of making stupid controversy over a film i just accept it for what it was and keep going with my life doing better stuff than complaing like a sjw bitch. You can do the same ... if at least you have dignity
@@motor4X4kombat you lack the comprehension skills needed to grasp my point. The point of the parable was to illustrate how something bad doesnt suddenly become good when something worse arrives. Both bad concepts are still bad period. Your original argument was the sequels were good because the terminator franchise was worse. They are both bad.
If we are really being technical, crimes are dictated by societal opinions. A few centuries ago murder was legal(in the form of duels), racism was legal and sexism was legal. Even today some parts of the world still have these problems.
Chosen One = Chosen Bloodline...Interesting...
Nobody said it ruined Vader’s REDEMPTION.
It ruined his legacy.
Nah
I knew from the beginning they would never have shown Anakin in the sequel trilogy because he would completely and I mean COMPLETELY take the spotlight away from Rey
BlueMind except you know FORCE GHOSTS!
BlueMind have you seen the end of return of the Jedi?!?!?
BlueMind they can still be there and say things
BlueMind if he was there and we could see him talking that would be awesome
Saving Luke was his redemption not killing the emperor
EDIT: Shit I wrote this before watching the video, now I look like an ass just repeating what you said.
Its more almost like ONLY the Post 2008 hardcore fandom view Star Wars' plot as ANYTHING but the Story of Darth Vader not Anakin and how Luke REDEEMED HIM not Anakin: redeeming himself. The confusion lies: in Post 2008 Anakin fanboys thinking SW is better served as a narrative about ANAKIN: even though that line of thought: FLAT-LINED SALES FINALLY: from 08-2012. And the brand was SOLD: when it was under the assumption: "It's Anakin's story".
And not a historical re-telling of two galactic conflicts. That JUST HAPPENED: to have magical based father son story: at it's core"
Trouble is: Lucas didn't know that from 1999-2012. Disney doesn't kow it fully aside from "There's SOME REASON: PT era everything: doesnt SELL HALF WHAT OT MERC DOES." Now...had they realized...
Maybe cause the IP hasnt aged movie wise since 1983...there's THAT.
And also: not realizing: the reason the Mainstream rejected PT lore in general: is because it wasn't about the creation of Darth Vader.
It's the story of a whiny kid: who even in ROTS: hasn't aged a day since the war started. Who in 11 minutes of screen time: goes from Loyal Kight and Friend: to Sith Lord: due to having no proof: palpatine MIGHT be able to save padme from a POSSIBLE DEATH.
THAT: TO THE MAINSTREAM: IS CALLED A MORON. And as of 2005: unintentionally Lucas retconned Darth VADER: into a moronic kid. And lol: were we see zero development as him as Vader...
It's easy for the mainstream...to pretend the PT: wasnt canon. Especially Gen 1 fans.
As if the PT is canon: all the OT was: was the end of a "balance" cycle: all involved were enslaved to. Vs a massive war: for Liberty and Freedom: not FATE.
It funny or sad...now SW Hardcore fans are SO unaware...they 1) either dont know or intentionally ignore this reality lol. 2) have no idea the lore their cheering...the lore they'll accept being retconned to hell in TCW2008...
Will NEVER SELL ENOUGH: to keep Star Wars...alive.
The proof: is the companies decline: from 1999-2012. And if that doesn't point out what no one wants to tell you kids...shrug:
Go back to living the lie: Star Wars being Anakin's story: will sell. One thing I guarantee tho: Disney KNOWING it wont sell as such:
Will NEVER let lore go back: to being Anakin centered: ever again. As perhaps the ONE good thing...
They dont know WHY...but they know...it wont SELL enough...
Lets hope the mandalorian grows up a bit more before the end. But if its coming from anywhere (maturity): look to the TV.
As the movies...are a joke Post 2005 lol.
This ☝️
It absolutely and unequivocally DOES diminish Vaders redemption. Not in the sense that he saved his son in that moment. Of course that doesn't change. But in the sense that his act no longer completely eradicates, once and for all, the evil he had participated in. In RotJ, Vaders action literally and metaphorically frees himself, Luke, and the galaxy from the Emperor forever. Allowing Luke, Han, and Leia to live happily ever after. If the Emperor didn't actually die, then this success is not complete. It is fleeting. And taken in the context of the sequel trilogy, was ultimately for nothing. If Vader had succeeded as was presented in the OT, we would not have to worry about Sidious returning and manipulating the events that would ultimately kill Han, Leia and Luke. Because of Vaders failure (as presented in the sequel trilogy), now everyone dies and Sidious comes back with no one but a mary sue to stand in his way. However, even though, Luke, Leia, Han, Anakin, Yoda, and Obi-Wan were not enough to stop Sidious. Rey will be. SO it's all good I guess.
Hahahahaha
@@ATATChat Damn, I was kind of somewhat with him for a while there but then it just descended further as he kept writing. And again with the Mary Sue crap?!
@@Benjamin0119 I think theres a VERY solid argument to be made that it undermines GLs original intention with the character. But yea, what that turned into was Bro Turding. Thats what I call it now.
@@ATATChat Yeah, he had it, then he lost it, lol.
Bro Turding! :D I'll have to remember that one for the future! :)
@@ATATChat Bro-turding: Speaking the uncomfortable truth. Is it not true that as the sequels now tell us that Anakin, Obi-Wan, Luke, Yoda, Leia, Han, all of them, in concert over the course of years of training were unable to completely vanquish the Emperor, but now, we are to believe that Rey will do so having only been introduced to the force for what is probably a few months? Forget about her being a Mary Sue or not. Doesn't that feel odd to you?
Listen, I understand that Anakin's sacrifice was less about him killing Palpatine and more about him saving Luke. But there is something undeniably cathartic about Anakin finally ending the evil prick who ruined his life for decades. It is satisfying to see Anakin kill him in the process of saving Luke, because Anakin has a history with Palpatine.
No offense, but please explain to me what catharsis there is in a character like Rey being the one to end Palpatine. Rey being the one to do it because she is a new Chosen One isn't the issue. The issue is that she has no history with Palpatine, whereas Anakin did. No matter how they do it, Rey and even Kylo ending Palpatine is simply not as narratively satisfying as Anakin doing it. It just isn't, I'm sorry.
For everyone saying that Anakin's redemption wasn't about ending Palpatine - please simply give me a better alternative for which character should end him instead.
Not at all (Vader was an act of love, saving Luke). But i still don't care about Palpatine's return (i am getting repetitive i know, but so does Palpatine).
🤣
Yes it ruin anakins redemoption
Redemption is an inner choice. Nothing can undo it.
Great spoiling thumbnails now. Gg
Wat
@@ATATChat Palpatine's comeback, i haven't watched any trailer.
It didn’t exactly undermine his redemption, it just destroyed his prophecy.
Dude killed a ton of kids...he was never redeemed lol.
And George was worried about Han shooting first.
This is one of my biggest worries, that the whole chosen one prophecy story is ruined.
I love the idea of the prophecy being larger than one person.
Thank you for this, I’ll be way more chill when watching the movie now haha :D
You had some cool ideas. How do you feel now?
Very mixed overall. It will take some thinking for me to think through some of the final films strange choices, but still ultimately, not that bad. 🤷♀️
Great video!!!
no