TT:120 - The Perfect Scale? | ml2.
Вставка
- Опубліковано 8 лип 2024
- FREE TT Membership (till 31.01.22) - uk.hornby.com/community/hornb...
15/20%+ Discounts for TT:120 members
DC or DCC/Sound Possibilities/Other Gauges Explained & Compared/A History of TT/Where to buy/Thoughts. Is this a flash in the pan or, the biggest thing to hit UK Modelling since DCC?
buymeacoffee Donation Link - www.buymeacoffee.com/modeloco
You can now support the channel by purchasing the NEW Remastered Modeloco intro track Casey Jones - Link - andymacc.bandcamp.com/track/c...
Chapters
00:00 Intro
01:21 UK Manufacturers on board Oct' 2022
03:19 Hornby TT:120 Free Membership & Discounts!
06:28 Scotsman Set - Not Flying Scotsman!
09:52 What exactly is TT:120 Scale?
11:16 Who's it aimed at?
12:27 How does it measure up to other scales?
23:13 Back to the LocoLift
In a decade where retailers have attempted entering into manufacturing & manufacturers have attempted entering more into retail...
We go into The Mac Cave to investigate @modeloco
Great break down of the different Gauges/Scales.
So as the OO Scale was accepted as 1:76, the Tri-ang TT Scale of 1:101 was accepted for the same reason.
With Tri-ang TT coming out in 1957, this meant that the technology for small electric motors/chassis to fit English locos was not there yet.
The 1:101 scale was adopted in order to make everything fit together in exactly the same way that the 1:76 OO scale was.
I have a 1958 era, Type A track loyout of Tri-ang TT and although the scale is a bit larger the 1st radius curves are 10", so tighter than the new Hornby TT120 1st radius.
This means that the Tri-ang TT track fits on a Table Top making it the true TT.
My layout with an external loop is on an 1800 x 600 MDF sheet for example.
The Hornby TT120 1st radius is the same radius as the OO Gauge 1st radius. Meaning that it doesn't take up much less space than OO Gauge. Which seems odd.
Thanks for the history and break done.
Very interesting. 👍
Thanks too for this information on the original Tri-ang track geometry. TT:120 is now bringing us in line with the US and continental Europe. In the past it seems, as with OO and British N, we did it our own way. As you mention and as with OO, at that time, to enable the mechanics enough space to fit into our smaller locomotives, compared to US ones when scaled down. TT:120 is a brave move to finally, clear the decks, address all the past hybrid scales, to the disdain of some naturally, here in the UK. Adding 120 after TT finally sets the scale in stone and in a shrinking world, now not only matches both track to model more accurately than any other mass produced UK scale production run has ever achieved but, also embraces the already established TT:120 scale abroad because all will now run together and look right. To ignore this again would have been very naive. Also, attempting to bring OO back to the more accurately matched HO would have been too painful, even for Hornby, as this scale is still very much in production of course. Maybe one day, who knows. Any change causes upset and TT3 or, other 3mm scale hybrids have been, I guess, officially let go of, due to this by the big players.
@@modeloco yeah.
They don't look too bad together though.
I have the Tri-ang TT Britannia engine beside a Corgi Static 1:120 Britannia and the difference is acceptable to me.
I've seen other channels run TT120 trains on Tri-ang TT track.
The new coaches are the ones that can't do the tight turns apparrntly.
Have a look at my videos if you are interested in seeing 65 year old brittish engineering at work. 👍
I love the old engineering that you could fix and maintain. No DCC but that doesn't bother some of us.
Stay safe.
Mon
@@monsvillerailways5736 I’ll have a look 👍
Saw their little booth at Kings Cross this weekend, they truly are a wonderful size, the details better than some of hornbys OO locomotives funnily enough, it seems they've done their fair share of work to make these locos as good as possible for the price and size
Encouraging news Bob.
I'm an odd bod - unashamedly. I use TT 12 mm gauge track for both OO and HO narrow gauge modelling.
First, as a member I'd seriously recommend anyone considering taking up the new system to join the 3mm Association, as this will give you access to advice, experience and a fair range of society products which might come in useful. It isn't the same linear scale as the new system, slightly larger, but I feel the advantages of belonging outweight the difference in scale.
British TT from the 60's used 3mm, rather than 2.5mm for a very practical reason, getting the then practical smallest motors into British model locomotives. Modern miniature motors aren't so restricted. OK, yes, the old Triang and Berlinnerbahn/Tillig models are crude by modern standards, but they will take the kind of abuse I inflict on them, rebuilding the mechanisms in various ways and still work reliably afterwards. The more sophisticated modern models can't - and usually cost too much to risk it!
Personally speaking I don't like Hornby's 'only from the factory' sales policy. Hornby don't sell glue, paint, strip or sheet wood, embossed plasticard or other builders essentials. For that you need a local model shop, and they are disappearing fast in this second city of ours. Some of us still love building for its own pleasure; rare, perhaps, these days, but it is stil a valid viewpoint.
I understand that an 08 diesel is projected? Well, I'd like to see how the mechanism is laid out. Why? Because an outside framed 0-6-0 rtr mech would be very useful for an awful lot of Irish and European 3 foot prototypes.........(and save me a lot of fiddling with fly cranks.)
Let's see how things progress before forming judgements. The old TT sold reasonably well for about 8 years, but was then overtaken by N, particularly due to the latter's space saving potential. The models look good. Accessories and other items will come in time - in the meantime do what model railwaymen have always done - adapt and improvise. And above all, enjoy the hobby.
Well said & for respectfully laying down the differences in a clear, concise way!
Btw. the Scotsman starter set will not include the "Flying Scotsman" locomotive. The name of the package represents the "Flying Scotsman" train service. The loco name will be "Blink Bonny".
I've pinned this & added a subtitle to the video, so as to inform other unsuspecting modellers like myself, who spotted the 'Blink Bonny' but, thought it was a picture error, as i quickly scanned the Scotsman pack! BUYERS BEWARE, it a Scotsman set not a Flying Scotsman! Thank You!
@@modeloco there will be tears.
But hornby will sell a little dish to collect them which has its place on the track mat acting as a pond
If it is true it probably has some link to the tie in with the NRM to sell oo gauge flying scotsman sets with the loco of that name with part of the money going to the museum.
@@HamStrains Not at all. The Flying Scotsman loco is available as a separate TT model. Product No. TT3004M.
They want you to buy the Flying Scotsman as a stand alone loco instead of in a cheap starter set. I can kind of understand that.
@@stormbowman7148 ...not much of any of this makes sense tbh. 😅someone in margate has had one too many and decided they can't lose face at a meeting by backing out and here we are pushing forward in hope it sorts its self out
This is a breath of fresh air as I model TT in North American models. I welcome the new accessories, buildings and details as well as mechanisms to kit bash. Thanks for the video! Cheers.
Thanking you 🙏 Very much appreciated. New video TT:120 The Perfect Scale 2024 (A Year On) out tonight with a lot in it having modelled TT and OO 👍
This has been in development for about 6 years, a company like Hornby doesn't just invest money without a lot of thinking. Other companies are in the TT120 market too, Gaugemaster, Peco, Oxford, Heljan, DCC Concepts, Proses, Tillig and Golden Valley Hobbies. I'm sure there have been many confidential meetings and Bachmann, Dapol etc will shortly announce items. I've already pre ordered about £2000 in stuff. I think this is genius and going to be a gold mine for the companies involved.
Yes indeed David... wonder if Faller will jump on board now too?
Kinda how they ended up where they are is exactly doing things with money without much thinking.
You can scratch Heljan off that list now though... ☹
Hornby and oxford should be counted as one and same... they are just brands of the same owner 😆
@@LittleWicketRailway Yes. it's a shame. I think there could be enough market for both versions. After all, I've just bought a Hattons class 66 even though its twice the price of a Hornby one because I want the 'better' version.
TT:120, the perfect way to maximise profits and get traction in the US market for Hornby. From what i'm seeing this new line isn't really affordable
Thank you for your take on this. Hornby, certainly had to do something before 2020 or, would have found it increasingly difficult to stay with us. Since this time, there has been a substantial improvement due, to the unexpected restrictions so, interesting to see what the future holds. The ongoing Worldwide chip shortages is having a massive impact on the hobby, especially DCC, wherever you look, hence a release in DC to begin with, no doubt. A brave move, some do say, at this time. As for affordability, it does look better from my perspective but, love sound and would want this and DCC, on any new models so, this limits my creative imagination as profit, no doubt, limits Hornby’s
@@modeloco I live in Australia, over the years I have covered Model Railway shows. I have noticed over the past 8 plus years a big downturn in interest in Model Railways with younger folk. In the area of Sydney where I live there use to be 3 model railway shows, today there are none and the last one stopped in 2019 just prior to 'the virus'. Just about every small hobby shop and reseller has closed. Again this all happened prior to 2019. Sure DCC has brought new levels of control and realism but the younger children find far more excitement in a iPad free game or train simulator, and that's what the very expensive model railways are up against. How can you compete with a 'free' game?
I see Hornby trying to market cheap entry level 'toy model trains' but honestly they are very expensive considering whats delivered which is a train set thats all plastic with cardboard props. I was indicating back in 2017 I could see the train shows were looking very quiet, and the hobby was showing signs of a very slow and awkward death. Personally I feel the hobby needs more focus, not more bloat as TT120 will bring. With Hornby now not doing the Thomas & Friends train sets thats just more nails in the coffin. If Hornby somehow connected with Thomas & Friends (Mattel owned now) and brought out a TT120 version it would be popular. But then it's up against the very beautiful TOMIX Japanese N scale models which are near faultless on many levels.
@@leokimvideo Don't forget that both N and Z had the same expensive and teetering start. It took years before modellers saw the benefits. I still vividly remember an N layout that had the world record for the longest goods train ever pulled by just one loco. Somewhere between 2011 and 2013. Can't find the catalogue, the Borrowers have likely got it and using the pictures to decorate their little homes.
TOMIX may be a Japanese company, but, every single Japanese modelling company have all their product range made in China. So, the success is down to the skilled workers in China. This is happening in T, as well, at the moment. Eishindo is a Japanese company that created T-Gauge, but they stopped making the range in Japan, and now it is all Chinese made.
@Demun1649 Remember a crane when I was an engineer. It’s owner was dropping one off and collecting the one that had broken down. He said the one that looks worn out and oily is the British one at 4 years and this one here is Japanese at twice that age and it looks newer and never gives up. He quoted that the brits are great inventors but, that the Japanese would take our designs, strip them down totally and rebuild them from scratch. All the oil seals were double lipped and everything was double plated where necessary. All this no doubt before they too looked elsewhere, like us, for cost cutting. Tokai Stratocaster guitars are now much sought after. I had one, wished I’d kept it. Many say, better than any Fender. Every culture has gifts to offer the collective 🙏
@@Demun1649 Its not about modellers seeing the benefits, bottom line is the model making company needs to profit, no profit no model company.
Sadly hornby's share price is headed lower, from what was 300GBX in 2007 to now 16GBX (remember GBX is 1/100th of 1 Pound). Many railway modelers said Covid would save Hornby, this did not happen.
Hornby's overall numbers are looking very sketchy. They need to completely rethink what they bring to the marketplace. Making little expensive trains obviously hasn't worked.
As we have just moved to a bungalow and am not wanting to go in the loft space anymore this is perfect. I've had a large 00 gauge loft layout for years, that's all gone now. She's let me have a bedroom 9' x 7'6" ish so a bit too small for 00 and N gauge is too small for my peepers. Bought the Easterner very pleased with it, although the controller is pants. Baseboards ordered Peco flextrack ordered and a few locos, coaches & wagons pre-ordered. I'm really looking forward to starting the layout and wish Hornby all the best with tt120.
Good to hear you've got this set, didn't know it was being shipped out yet.
It may be for people with restricted space, but not restricted wallets! And you need the time as well.
Well said. Every action has a consequence!
Looking forward to restarting my hobby in TT as I sold my OO sets years ago because of space issues, I can see this doing well.
Hope my next video inspires you 👍
I recall that in the late '70s, both Rivarossi and Fleischmann ventured into British outline HO (the Rivarossi un-rebuilt 'Scot' and Fleischmann Warship with Bulleid coaches) for a short time.
Regarding scales; to make things more confusing, continental 'N' is 1:160, British 'N' is 1:148, and Japanese 'N' is 1:150.
Holy Guacamole! I've now subtitled the Japanese scale to my last pic' on gauges. Thank You!
@hornbytrainzz It's going off the scales now. What a can of gauges! Let's hope TT:120 is going to be the first, mass produced gauge, that's actually all to scale, with all manufacturers conforming to a globally recognised standard?
@@modeloco Can get even worse - in Britain you also have EM (18mm track) and P4 (18.83 track) - proponents of both claim to be the 'true' OO gauge. There is also OOn9 which is OO narrow gauge using N gauge track. The equivalent in Europe is either HOe (HO using gauge N track) and HOm (HO using TT gauge track). Re narrow gauge in N scale 'ready to run', you find Nm which is 1:160 using Z gauge track or in the case of Kato, they model RhB trains to 1:150 running on N gauge track. The subject of scales and gauges is a minefield and this only scratches the surface. My personal preference is European N gauge at 1:160 and Kato's RHB narrow gauge because they are the only producers I have found of scale couplings that work reliably (Scharfenberg, Buckeye, and the couplings found on Swiss narrow gauge rolling stock).
N is actually correct to scale in 1:160 for 4ft 8 1/2" standard gauge track. The code of the rail is too fat/tall with code 80 but is about correct when in code 55 or code 40. Other countries use the same rail but bigger locomotives to represent the more narrow gauge of the track in those areas. Much like how N scale track is used with HO locomotives for HOn3 narrow gauge.
@hornbytrainzz Am I right in saying, would you say, HO, never really being mass produced in the UK? Can’t investigate, I’m drilling lol
I choose TT scale in the beginning of my hobby. One of the major producers in TT in europe is Tillig Bahn and I have most of stuff from them, because they have the best TT track system in quality because I have tried other ones and they are just week try from competitors. And I think it is the best scale because it is now too small and not big and the main factor is that you can fit much more stuff in the same space with TT than HO or other scales because I find N adorable but it is too small for practical playing if you want to have children to play with it.
Yes, think I’d have gone with it too, seeing stuff in my local 2nd hand model shop, back in the day. Scales were all very confusing to me as a child, especially, with some being so close and, others a mix of two different scales. I was put off it, due to it, not being, as readily available in the UK. Somehow, anything European, still seems far away. Guess it’s the language barrier.
Tillig track is very expensive but looks perfect. The points I had years ago did not have over-centre springs so were a pain to keep against the rail when manually operated.
This is very interesting times for Hornby TT120. I switched to N gauge and I will be staying put on that scale as I have a range of models that I am happy with at this time. Mehano and Piko do/did TT120 as well with some German model trains like the Blue Tiger diesel engine. So there is potential to run both UK and European TT scale trains together if desired.
Yes, finally some UK standardisation. Be interesting to see where this all takes us, say in 5 years.
Thanks for putting this video up. TT scale (1:120) has a large and growing following in the continent, especially Eastern Europe. In this respect, the choice of the 08 and 66 as models is very interesting, as it opens the possibility of these being released in the Continent under the Arnold banner - the 66 would be most welcome by modern modellers and the 08 could be dressed in Dutch, Swedish and Danish guises (OK technically these locos were class 11s but..).
Yes, did hear it has now overtaken N Scale in Europe, as whole so, proving, very popular, if rumours and figures are correct.
as a Multi-Scaler i have found TT to be perfect for me ... but alas , Tilligs return to The States in the '90s was a saga of disaster ! It's Great to hear this resurging interst in TT 👌
Not much a "resurging interest" as a "companies trying to find new ways to fleece people but most customers are satisfied with what they have".
@@MrJoeyWheeler You , sir , are a cynic . You are entitled to your opinion , but you're wrong .
Yes, all things considered. It’s interesting how my thoughts ebb and flow as the Hornby Scotsman sets begin to roll out
Nicely done video 👍
Thank you 👍 Hoping the process gets quicker!
Thank you for this upload. Like many, I'm too invested in 00 to consider switching. Even if successful, it will be many years before we see the range of spares and detailing products currently available to the OO modeller.
The offer of a year's free membership is one I will probably take up, if only to monitor the format's progression over the coming twelve months.
Good points indeed!
I think you misread the box, it sail The Scotsman, you could it the Flying Scotsman. I think a couple of years time TT might start to replace N gauge mainly due space but it works for eye sight, I for one have tired N but glasses & a magnifier were not enough!
Hi Vinny, Yes, added this Scotsman fact, in a subtitle a couple of days back & now have warned others who may make the same mistake too. Just thought the picture was wrong but, no, you do get a 'Blink Bonny'. Thanks for your thoughts too!
Great video, and very informative, it must have taken you a while to assemble this information in a short time. Other observers have also added some very informative information in the comments below. Supporting each other and encouragement is what we need to promote and encourage new modellers, no matter what scale is chosen, there's never a stupid question..
I am a modeller in both OO and N scales and have invested significant amounts of money in both scales, N gauge being my more recent venture (at 58 this might not have been such a wise decision, space and rented accommodation dictated). I find that having consistently useable loco's and rolling stock is a significant factor in my personal enjoyment of the hobby. Increasing the use of standard `stay alives' on or connected to the decoder PCB's to overcome dirty track or smaller wheel base pickup areas is an absolute must. I enjoy trouble shooting when issues arrive but not every time I use my layouts.
I'm not looking at changing to TT120 at the moment, I am on the fence and waiting to see how the general modelling community react to this latest venture and how manufacturers deal with the cost/quality/availability/range of models in the current UK/EU financial dip.🤫
ThankYou! Nearly deleted the whole thing at the 11th hour! Started this video & it just opens up, like writing a novel. So much overlaps. You really have to set boundaries. An unexpected part of this process, which can take many hours/days, when you're just getting going, doing everything from scratch, is how many of my own lifelong questions have been answered along the way &, how comments have helped so much to iron out some misunderstood or, overlooked bits, as you attempt to take it all in.
TT seems like an ideal scale for LMS/LNER modellers, where larger passenger trains and big engines can be more easily accommodated. Where before one might be able to fit a Black 5 and 3 or 4 coaches, now you can have a proper express. I wonder if there will be bits (wheels, axleguards, etc) available for those of us who like to scratchbuild?
However, for those of us who don't model LNER... not much to write home about yet.
Even for those who model the LNER it's not much to write home about. The LNER and later eastern region was hugely diverse in motive power(probably the most diverse of the big by the time of nationalisation) and pretty diverse in rolling stock beyond gresley coaches.
Time will tell. Thanks for your thoughts!
Here in Ireland, there are some people who model Irish broad gauge track in OO, which works out about 22mm gauge.
Thanks for adding this information 👍
For those that found the OO/track anomaly an irritation and EM too much of a faff this could be a great success - especially those starting out or returning to modelling....
I'd dearly love to visit Pendon Museum & believe this uses the EM scale you mention. It's been great to cast a light, doing this video, as to why we've ended up with the mismatching we find today in mass production, due to decisions taken in the past over cost, manufacturing limitations then &, not daring to change that as techniques evolved... until now.
Personally I really don’t get why people get so hung up on the oo gauge anomaly. It’s almost one of those things that’s not noticeable, unless you know it’s there. It’s never bothered me in the slightest.
@@tjfSIM It’s 7%. OO has a 2.24mm narrower wheel spacing, than it really should have. I’d say, it’s much more noticeable if, you put correctly scaled OO gauge track, side by side, with the track we all use, which is basically HO gauge track. Unless, modelling, in the almost accurate EM scale, because it’s how many decimal points, you want to go, to call something accurate, like they do at The Pendon Railway Museum, you don’t really begin to notice the difference. A bit like putting M8 and M10 bolts or nuts next to each other. Once you see it, it’s there I guess. I didn’t know for decades but, did always feel something wasn’t quite right. Like the gaps we have to put between tracks running side by side so, that rolling stock can negotiate the much tighter bends, without clashing against each other. We nearly all use 2nd Radius and, that in real life, are never this sharp.
@@modeloco 7%, wow - I actually didn't realise the difference was that much. As you say I guess once you know about it, it's harder to ignore it. There are lots of compromises with the hobby unless you're an absolute stickler for realism. I can understand Pendon or other large scale layouts going to the trouble, because they have the space for scale length distances. Most of us however have to make do with some artistic licence and lots of compression, which means tighter curves. Indeed all of the set track curves, even 4th radius, are far tighter than any bend you'd ever see in reality. And it's particularly painful to watch trains negotiating set track points! 😂
I got my first TT scale set right 40 years ago for Christmas, made by Berliner TT Bahnen, living in an "Iron curtain" country. The funniest thing about it is, being the 2nd most popular scale behind the curtain, its origin is in the USA, as commonly used civil engineering drawing & modelling scale 1"/10'.
Sadly, due to technical reasons, the vehicles were slightly distorted, the functionality above the exact scaling, most visible on the locos, the motor has to fit in and the models of new East-German (or Hungarian) made UIC-Y type coaches, they were 195 mm long and 26 mm wide, instead the computed 204 mm and 24 mm. The buffers mounted on the bogies (except freight cars) and the unnecessary big gap between the coupled vehicles. But, they were cheap and available anytime (until 1988 - 89... You know...), best fit into the city block "bunny breeders cage" apartments.
Nowadays the scale has its reneassance, because not only Tillig, Piko, Roco and Kuehn are filling the market gap, but local manufacturers producing typical local vehicles and scenery. Thanks to Austrian-Hungarian monarchy and idolizing Germany, the railway architecture is not that much different, but nowadays the concrete poured everywhere... just forget it, the progress.
I have seen videos about the new sets, I like those "Pullman coaches". Now, those are my new "must have" items, but I don't know, if available in the continental part of Europe.
Enjoyed reading this. I'm getting a few bits and pieces coming through now and so, planning in my head where to put this and what to go for. Just been looking at the lit Pullmans too.
@@modeloco
I don't know why, but I like luxurious coaches - maybe one of my previous lives (I am kidding).
The older I am, the older stock I like. As a children modern electric (spending the childhood trainspotting the mainline Baltic Sea - Poland / Germany - Czechoslovakia - Hungary - Romania / Yugoslavia -Black Sea / Mediterrain Sea), in my 30 diesel units and curvy "big diesels", nowadays steam locos and luxurious coaches (Venice - Simplon, Orient Express, Rheingold, etc).
Btw, the Tillig's TT scale "Rheingold" coaches from 1930's are available, however "freelance" (the exact livery on alike-class coaches), but I rather got myself exČSD class M286.0 diesel motor car and class Balm / Bmx trailer.
For the Hornby Folks: I understand this model doe not have traction tires. In your future steamer releases, think about adding traction tires, and if you do, please put them on a geared driver; not on an axel set propelled by side-rods. The traction tire axle set could be an optional item in the box-leaving it up to the modeler to install them. Just my two cents, as-it-were.
Thanks for your thoughts, even though mine are a direct opposite and, definitely would oppose any traction type of tyre at all. Had they done this, It would have certainly stopped me in my tracks to, looking further in to running a TT:120 layout. I am in favour of more engine weight which, I here they added after prototypes were tested.
I can see that tt:120 has a lot of potential if people will like it and buy it, but for me 00 has just been my thing always
Love the physical size of OO & layout potential of TT. Thanks for your thoughts!
This is insane!!!1!!
Needless to say, I've subscribed :-)
Welcome aboard! Thank You!
The couplings are standard Tillig TT, with NEM pockets (same pocket design as N gauge). Same as used on Hornby/Arnold TT models. Different to the European style hook and loop used on older Continental TT and of course different to the old Triang TT3 tension lock coupling.
Yes, have seen a few Arnold models about. Let's hope couplings & at least coupling heights & tolerances, are universally agreed upon, going forward.
@@modeloco They are. It is the international TT standard. Finally, a UK model that is not "off" from everybody else. 👍
@@stormbowman7148 Indeed!
I am sure there is no connection but we had TTR locos and rolling stock in the 1940'. A similar scale to Hornby Dublo. TTR was Trix Twin Railways toy trains.
Thank You!
Good video. Potentially lots to like about TT, especially for people like me.
Like many peopleI got back into the hobby during lockdown. Two things have put me off a bit though.
1) It's not a cheap hobby, but the recent price hikes have been astronomical. Consequently nearly all my purchases have been second hand, except for a few heavily discounted items from model shops.
2) I only have a small terrace house. I've made a small basic layout in my spare room which I regard as a practice layout to get my hand in. Long term the plan was to build a more extensive layout in the loft, however it needs a fair bit of time and money spent on it before it will be ready.
TT has two big advantages for me. I can build a more extensive layout in the same space and prices whilst still not cheap are a fair bit less than OO, at least for new stuff. e.g.
- Hornby's TT A4s are £124 (with the 15% discount). OO is about the same for a secondhand DCC ready model, or about £200 new. Similar with coaches. Wagons are less than new OO but more than second-hand.
My initial impression is the track looks good. I note Hornby's curves go from 2nd up to 6th radius and express points are on the way. Peco already have flexi track and medium points, with small points and diamond crossings on the way.
The couplings look an improvement on standard OO gauge too, though I'll suspend final judgement until I've seen them in action.
Disadvantages:
1) Lack of products and acessories compared to OO at present, though it sounds like Hornby will be making regular releases and they're offering a decent selection for a start up layout.
2) No established second hand market yet.
If I had a big established OO layout, or the space to make one I'd stick with it. But for me personally it's tempting to switch. I'll probably get one of the sets, to see what I think before making a final decision.
Fortunately I've become a pretty good bargain hunter when buying my OO stuff, so I'm confident I can resell it for at least what I paid and probably make a small profit on the majority. In fact after doing some calculations it would probably be enough to pay for the work needed on attic if I don't stay in the spare room and/or a 3D printer to make some of my own accessories.
N.B. A few things I'd like to see soon in TT120.
- Track laying tools.
- Track accessories like tunnel mouths, bridges, level crossings, etc.
- Stuff for scratch building. I think a few model shops stock some TT scale plasti-card sheets from Europe, but more of that kind of thing would be great.
I've seen Gaugemaster too, are on to it with Tunnel Portals, etc. Great thoughts. Thank You!
@@modeloco I hadn't seen the Gaugemaster items. They seem to be made by European manufacturers for their market, so not always prototypical for a GB layout, but a lot of items are universal and could be used without looking out of place.
Spoken like a man after my own heart, sir. Track laying tools are really no different to those you may already have - a light hammer, archimeadian pin vice and fine drills, fine piercing saw or razor saw, needle nosed pliers, miniature soldering iron. I use the same tools for both OO and 12 mm Peco track - I imagine Tracksetta or someone will soon produce 12mm gauges for use with flexi track.
@@speleokeir TT has never gone away in Germany; there is a big range of items. A lot of modellers choose practicality over prototype fidelity, and use German building kits for convenience already - indeed a lot of non - railway related building models are already made to European TT scale.
@@johndavies1090 Very kind John. Thank You so much!
I see Heljan has dropped plans to do a class 31 in TT. It looks like Hornby are going to do one in the future. Thanks for a great video.
Very kind Thank You! Cheers for the interesting update too.
It's a shame because I feel that, like in 'OO' there is a market for more than 1 manufacturer to produce the same model. The class 66 is a great example, cheap (Hornby), good but expensive (Bachmann) and great at a good price (Hattons).
Didn't know this. I had one reserved..
The motors in the locos are 3 pole - which could mean crawl speed is not good, with cogging. I model SR mostly, nothing yet available, apart perhaps for Pullmans. I have original TT from childhood, with 2 Merchants and 2 Jintys, and yes they are crude, but was not expecting this! Have so much OO, which of course is a compromise, but this scale will be good in smaller places, and in time, the range will expand. Would love to see a real test of a loco, to see what they can pull, and how detailed they really are, not just the advertising hype, which although exciting, does not put these items to any real test.
Yes, I don't get that: I've got a substantial amount of Euro TT with very, very nice running characteristics, obviously having decent motors. My Japanese N, 5 pole skew wound or coreless, these are the mainstream, so I'm a little concerned. I've preordered the easterner set (how do you incorporate an BR A4 with a DR E77?!?) So it'll be interesting. Tbh the footage of the A4 doesn't look bad, again a little concerning about things like the side rods which superficially look reminiscent of Poole GF N, which compared with, for example, a Kato D51 looks a bit crude... I'm hoping and hoping it's not going to disappoint: although reasonably priced and I'm not too fussy, I still want it to look good :)
We all wait with bated breath!
I love N-Gauge
Nothing wrong with that. Thanks, Christopher 👍 ps do you model 1:148 N Scale?
I might be tempted by a GWR train set.
Am sure, it’s causing a rumble, for every Model Railway enthusiast in the UK, to some degree.
Always a fun watch I try to make Intrasting vids on both my railway and my hi-fi channel and am more than happy with just editing it in IMovie it’s quick it’s simple which leaves more time for trains lol. Stay safe.
Same here. iMovie & thanks for watching
Great Video 👍
I really like the TT size.
Greetings from Germany TiMu
Greetings from UK. We are all here, awaiting it's reintroduction! There's a lot of steam building!
I don't have alot of space so I went to N gauge but TT does look good and would be usefull for people who may not be able to model such a small scale like N
Well said. Thank You!
There is only 0.48mm/ft difference TT and N. So TT has no real advantages over N gauge.
I actually really like the idea of TT120 but right now its too expensive (at least Hornby stuff is), I know its new tooling but theres another great barrier to entry to model railways and thats price. TT120 eliminates the need for space, but there needs to be lower detail models that are affordable too, not everyone thats into the hobby wants maximum detail and apparently Hornby are marketing TT at newcomers, does a newcomer want to spend £200 on a starter set? probably not, I know I don't.
Hopefully down the line other manufacturers can get into this scale and hopefully create some nice competition because a smaller scale like this is so much more accessible and I'm actually quite excited about the future of model railways, I haven't used my 00 for years but this announcement by Hornby has gotten me interested again.
Great video, loved all the history lessons and diagrams.
That means a lot. Thank You! Maybe a Railroad type series will come into the mix eventually!
It's going to be interesting to watch how this scale works out.
60 years ago both Triang 00 and TT were crude,we now have great models in 00due to modern production techniques and no doubt TT 120will allow the same fidelity.
Most modellers complain of lack of space even if you do have a large space.
This new gauge is going to allow people to produce more prototypical railways inthe same space so I do see not only new modellers going for it but possibly die hard 00 modellers who like the idea of what n gauge offers for scenic opportunity where the models seem subservient to the scenic possibilities.
Perhaps TT is the best possible compromise??
Agreed. The only real drawback, providing detail, reliability, quality & running are all matched, etc, is the lack of stock items available on the UK market to construct a good sized layout. Plus there's not going to be any real second hand market for a few years. Resisting at present because of this & until we see the stock models actually running & 'now in stock' on lots of items.
Interesting times, the clock of expectation is ticking. Already see frustration regarding the TT:120 members blog on the Hornby website. Fingers crossed.
@@modeloco time will tell, of course you can't expect any company to roll out every model straight away.
I think Hornby are right to produce iconic locos to start with but think perhaps they need to produce contemporary models for today's younger generation.
Show me a model railway man who says he has enough space, regardless of scale, and I'll show you someone who is a very rare bird indeed!
@@modeloco Good points. 3mm to a foot is easier mathematically than 2.5mm - particularly for a numeracy duffer like me! That's about the only problem I can see.
@@johndavies1090 you really need to read what I wrote.
I never said modellers have enough space, space is something we all want more of even if you have a decent area.
This is definitely the perfect scale for me, I went n scale for a while but it still just too small to get the details I wanted. Oo would be good, but only in the ideal world of a big spare room that your wife has given you permission to play with toy trains in….. so this is the ideal scale and ticks so many boxes for me. Also that new coupling system is great! I can see that sneaking it’s way into the other scales eventually too.
Good points. Understanding partners are as essential as decent rail joiners. Hornby TT:120 Coupling system is looking very promising, agreed.
I still have a box of the original TT that was given to me second hand as a child (a very long time ago!). The old brown solid base track which was easy to set up and pack away again. It was frustrating not to be able to add to it apart from occasional lucky junk shop finds. Over the years it became increasingly difficult to keep serviceable as parts were not available, electrical continuity through points was particularly troublesome. Lots of fun though and plenty of room for it in my bedroom.
Could you elaborate on the name and set. Not to be mixed up with Triang TT of course, which isn’t 1:120
@@modeloco I described it as 'original' so yes I am referring to Triang TT. It isn't a 'set' as such, it had belonged to an adult and came to me as a Christmas present when it was no longer wanted so is a collection of individual items. I was quite excited to come upon the new 120 release, less so when I realised that the new series is not compatible with the old. I would be interested to know why Hornby have chosen a slightly different scale to attach to the old name, does anyone know the logic behind that?
@@jamesiwcooper TT:120 sets the record straight with regards to being, almost correctly scaled, depending on where you set the decimal point, as there’s always a bit of difference, unlike British N, British OO. The original British TT unfortunately, was just a, nobody else adopted it over the years. TT:120 is overtaking N scale sales, on the continent so, it had to happen or, someone else would grab the opportunity and, think two other companies did have UK plans, now dropped.
Interesting, thank you.
Blimey, Bob Denney ran a railway model shop at Long Eaton opposite the railway station which was small but not as small as the shed you mention. Interesting post, I'm not sure this launch by Hornby will catch on as fewer youngsters appear to be attracted to the modelling hobby but I wish them well and hope it doesn't see Hornby off. It's all down to price in this crazy world with less available spare cash available nowadays for hobbies for many, especially younger people.
Yes, this one was tiny but, certainly sparked off my imagination. It doesn’t take much and, as my Parents were always working so, before this it was a large children’s book which had a plan view of a railway track spread across the centre pages. Somehow, I had a little model train that almost seemed to fit the printed track so, pushed it round as I had the story read to me before bed. My kids do take a little interest but, never want to be related to me when I’m going on about trains. Took them to exhibitions, York RM, on the Whitby NYMR twice and camped at Dent but, it’s only the camping my Son loves. Daughter admires what I do but, both find it, ‘a bit weird Dad’. Strange how sitting slumped on a bed for hours, in front of a screen with headphones on, destroying everything in sight, in pursuit of whatever, in a dystopian type scenario is more or less accepted as gaming and, even carries into Adulthood for some, Yeah, that’s weird. My Daughter never got into that either, she loved her Dolls, both like books and, my Son only uses his Xbox, for movies now and the odd Boxing bout with an online opponent. It started with Minecraft and Lego which connects to the Lego games and even their own currency so, creating in the box, rather than physically, out of it. Both have there limitations but, the console offers a quick route into the world you wish to create so, grabs most first I guess and, as kids, are drawn into that ‘want it now’ impatient drive so, opt for the multi use gadget rather than the models, the layout learning curve and modelling.
@@modeloco Couldn't agree with your observations more. Your site subscribed and liked.
If this takes off, I am sure PIKO (the German manufacturer) will consider UK models. They are really into German and Eastern Europe TT scale. Amazing models.
Also remember RoCo (aka Fleischmann) make TT models.
You can already buy continental freight cars with UK profile, like the Ferry approved Transthermos fish vans
Interestingly, my local model shop here in Australia has announced that TT will be available from them (and indirectly, that others will too) despite Hornby's online-only announcement, with my friendly proprietor stating that it is an 'entirely different situation' down here in Aus, and unlike UK retailers will be able to sell it directly to customers. This is quite handy for us down here, as without putting it out there and having that awful international postage rates there's no way it would've taken off.
In the UK, as a consumer, you really get the feeling, theres been an incredible amount of tension, between both the producers & retailers alike for some years now. Both sides, having plausible reasons as to why they've become thus so, I guess. Lines have blurred somewhat between the two. As a consumer myself, it's become increasingly difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff in regards to both review integrity vs silent partner bias & new products coming at us from all angles. Is this an attempt to paint a decisive demarcation line back on the road ahead & secure their products are given a fair share, at least, in the on line display cabinet once again? Can understand why Austrailia may be different due to your location.
Yeah but I imagine it'll face the same issues all hornby stuff does here. Sure it may be notionally in a shop, but where exactly is the stock? Can sit waiting for months on end for stock to come in if it comes in at all.
@@HamStrains If that's what's going on there, it couldn't be more different here. Hornby has a presence in every model shop; even if they're the only model railway manufacturer present, there's always a couple Hornby sets and some track or buildings. The only delays here are to do with international shipping and Covid-related delays, and model shops never have a problem with empty shelves.
@@captaincool3329 know a couple in melbourne that have pretty much said "we ask for stock, you get your model if hornby grants permission" it's very much a get what you can where you can deal.
If there is anything modeled for NSWR I will be extremely interested. Especially from 1960s to 1990s.
Being very old, my first train set was triang TT I still have a !good it but nowhere to run it.
I had big plans to build an N gauge layout when I retired but five years on overall has not happen.
Sure we all suffer from this at times. As they say, don't put off for tomorrow, what can be done today. I just have to literally tear myself off a mundane task & get modelling at times, mostly. Once I begin, can't stop then!
As a curiosity the company TT-Berliner Bahn of East Germany had a huge inventory and they were super cheap. The Quality was not very high. The tracks had the same u profile on pressed paper sleepers as the early Fleischmann and Piko, the points looked terrible. The locos had an interesting can motor with a worm gear drive. I believe they had a 20-30 locos, perhaps even more, all East German and Russian. Some of their steam locos are pre war Reichsbahn . For those who like to model continental Europe a lot of very cheap stuff can still be found. In 1985 a starter set with two locos, two electric points, transformer, coaches, wagons and tracks for double ovals sold for less than 20- twenty pounds. Three quite nice old German coaches (1890-1900) sold for £3. They could were well be used on a modern layout if the couplings are changed.
Thanks for that Stein. I wonder if the new TT:120 range, will be embraced more, by continental modellers in future, once scale, track and coupling heights match.
A few companies like Lima made some UK models in HO scale.
Thanks for clarifying this James
My local model shop owners hated children in their shop.
When I got back into modeling, felt the same sort of disdain and, lack of social skills, directed toward myself, even as an adult, needing guidance again, at the time, either in person or, over the phone.
@@modeloco it was the same with RC planes. Generally, I never go into local model shops for advice. 'lack of social skills' exactly, on the spectrum even.
Here's how me and my mate got our revenge on one such shop:
About 25 years ago me and my mate had an RC helicopter that me got secondhand and were getting flightworthy. anyway, one Saturday I sent my mate to a model shop at Fairoaks airfield to get a part, Well, the guy in the shop said no such parts existed and my mate came back empty handed.
We checked the manual and sure enough the part number was correct and they were stockists. I phoned them and the guy located the part but tried to say it was our fault for not giving him the right part number and I said 'whatever, we will pick it up during the week. Basically the guy was a rude arsehole.
As luck would have my mate got asked to retuned to Fairoaks in the middle of the next week, in his RAF Puma, which he was taking there for a new paint job. On arrival, and after a couple of noisy circuits that brought many people out of various building to see who was beating up the runway, he handed over the aircraft to the contractor, then trotted over to the model shop in full flight gear with flying helmet under his arm. On entering the shop he was greeted by the aforementioned A-hole and said ‘I've come to collect a part for my helicopter’. The guy said ‘Err, sorry sir, we don’t do Puma parts, RC only.’ My mate said ‘Not for the Puma! For my Concept 30. I was here at the weekend, remember?’. Sheepishly, and very politely, the twat went and got the part. We never used them again and they’ve gone bust long ago.
Will the new track be a British sleeper spacing one or the more continental one?
In PECO TT:120 the visible height of the rail correctly represents 113lb flat bottom rail. The flexible sleeper base is detailed with fine wood grain and spikes through British Railways’ BR1 baseplates under the rails, a combination that continues to be widely used on Britain’s railways. So I presume British, at least with this great company! I've pinned your comment for more views & thoughts.
It’s an ok scale if you have good eyes! Still think 1/64th scale is the superior scale!
Fair comment. Never tried this myself! Thank You!
Heljan has also signed up with a loco!
Steam is building!
They jumped ship
Greetings from Germany
Greetings, fellow modeller!
oxford models already out. west hill wagon works also prpduce 41 items too.
Thank you and yes, was looking yesterday at these. Exciting times.
Love the potential of TT 120. Heljan have now withdrawn their proposed locomotives from the market as Hornby have copied/produced the same models. Surely there can be dialogue to prevent this. Hornby did the same with the Titfield Thunderbolt range, but had to withdraw their product due to product licensing issues.
Yes, did hear all this. It's been an odd few years as retailers became off-shoot manufacturers & manufacturers are now engaging more with online retailing. Do believe there were more from Heljan, in the pipeline, than just the ones Hornby are doing but, yeah, dropped the lot? Thank You!
I hope we will be able to shunt properly. N scale is terrible for that, hence at exhibitions it is rarely seen. My N scale layout is a shed scene, so no shunting needed.
Sounds good
British N is also not to scale its 1:148 whereas the track at 9mm is too 1:160
Yes, doing this video, has helped me realise this very fact. Thank You! Have already added a comment to last gauge pic!
@@modeloco I think the out of scale issues for British railway models is the big attraction of this new TT:120 venture. There is O of course but that’s pretty big for most people’s home layout.
@@marka87 Have now added a subtitle on the video 16:24 , thanks again!
All I've seen are Pacifics/Atlantics. I prefer smaller locos. I would also like to know if a manufacturer would be making plastic building kits.
As a child, loved the TT:120 scale too but, alas it wasn't easy to get in UK. Good thoughts, presume so. All early days!
How interesting, in this video n scale is referenced as 1:160, which although correct for the US and Europe is not universal the track width of 9mm, in the UK it is !:148 and in Japan it is 1:150.. 1:120 TT seems to be a universal scale, so it seems logical for UK companies to adopt it, especially as there are no major manufacturers in the UK making Triang's TT scale products. It is interesting that other Hornby owned model train companies apart from Arnold are currently making 1:120 products, one wonders it they might add TT to their ranges as well.
When you begin to look, it appears that we finally, either embrace the growing, continental markets, or continue manufacturing, in our own British scales, that sit on, the more universally, accepted track gauges. At first, it reminded me of competing kitchen companies, who would not only work to their own standards but, slightly alter them, as new ranges came out, over time. This meant trying to match one carcass, hinge or, door with another, meant a varied set of power tools and skills, were needed or, you just buy the whole lot again. I then began to understand why rolling stock, doesn’t always couple together and that this, isn’t just due to the slight scale differences. It’s also due to the fact, coupling height, which has never really been standardised either. Also the sockets they nowadays, clip into, can be very different, tolerance wise too, even if the same design and, even depending on the batch of say, coach bought. As it’s many years, since modelling in N gauge, and just wanted to see scales side by side but, just naturally assumed it wasn’t like British OO and, the more accurately scaled HO when, in fact, it’s even more of a mixed bag.
Ps Arnold already produce in TT:120 scale
I can’t wait until these are released so that I can buy them 😂
Indeed, who foots that bill!
I have a question, wrt the TT:120 club. I understand the UK membership, but what does ROW mean? (Rest of the World?) It's not clear if one can join from the US. I have an old collection of TT I was given and later added to, before I moved back to the US, and it would be fun to add to my collection, but am unsure about the membership... TIA
The only exclusion is Australia who I'm told, will have models supplied through a 3rd party outlets (see below), it's now official. UK & yes, the Rest Of the World, can get a free 12 month membership until 01.02..23, from the date you apply. A Membership fee applies from 01/02/23. £30 UK. £35 Rest of World. So apply before then to get the deal.
Southern Model Supplies, Adelaide will be distributing Hornby TT:120 in Australia and to this end, they will be making an announcement shortly.
@@modeloco Thanks!
I always thought that TT looked about the best compromise, and it had some logic when it was the smallest working size model railway that worked, and architectural modeling was already at 1:100 [or 1:200].
Why have they added, yet another variation by having a second TT now at 1:120.
But there's been N gauge for a long time now, and there are plenty of building kits in card, and the Japanese make engine kits in brass or plastic. With smaller coreless motors, better molding they've improved the quality a lot.
So there seems little purpose in splitting the railway market even further.
The diagramme of scales missed - 1:150 Japanese N, 1:148 British N, 1:144 & 1:72 both are mainly of war modelling [which do include some rail vehicles] but also is used for aircraft & marine models.
Great thoughts. Thank You!
Have included the scales you mention 1:148 & 1:150 at about 21:00 mins into the video, as a subtitle, after being brought to my attention but, thanks!
Haven't included the kit modelling scale 1:172 but, good to know. Do believe most of the production runs of locomotive kits are not actual running models but, may be mistaken.
I can imagine this "new-not new at all!" scale appealing to newcomers or returners but I can't imagine people with 00, N-gauge or even HO layouts junking all their stock to move into this scale. On the other hand, if lots of 00, N or HO stuff suddenly appears on the second-hand market the bottom will drop out of it, so that might be a perfect time to buy for those who choose not to change scale.🤨
Have just been toying, for want of a better word, with the same conundrum. It's one, probably best, to let, slowly, chuff by. Your point, regarding the influx, of models, if people jump down a scale, is an interesting one too. Still manage with an iPhone 6. I like wired headphones. I'm not a fan of Bluetooth. Ironically, I'm not alone, good, discontinued, wired, Mac keyboards & mice, initially flooded in, dipped, then grew in value. Thanks!
What is important? OO is toy-like because it is a large scale on a narrow guage track. O guage is okay and half O guage is HO which is fine on HO track. The problem for OO is that it runs on HO track so OO simply looks wrong -- it is toy-like. So, my question: have Hornby chosen the correct scale of 120 for the track guage? N guage has 148 and 160 -- 148 is toy-like and 160 seems about right, but is it? Manufacturers chose a system where they can fit an electric motor into whatever works for them. Does it work for model makers who require accuracy? We have been offered too many toys already. Is this TT120 a true guage/scale match or is it just more toys for boys?
It simply looks as if they have gone, this time, with an established scale, growing on the continent and, with big interests there, not just at home, had no choice. One of our great comments in this chat, got the maths down to within about 0.05mm accuracy. There is one other scale that is slightly more accurate, if the maths are correct, so down to 0.03mm. If, I recall correctly, this is HO. It’s below somewhere but, can I find it. That said, far better than a 2.3mm out wheel spacing on OO, which is more prominent, when you see it. Despite all this. Really feel, play is so important at any age whether it’s music, acting or, model railways. In a world where we take the roles we choose so seriously, it’s also very important to have all the benefits linked to fun and, create something, where we set can the bar, work towards, at our own pace, make mistakes, without hurting others and, give our minds a break, do something for nothing, in that way, yet learn so much, at the same time and, yes, ironically, if we can afford, to spare the time, space and investment, which links to quality and accuracy that you rightly point out. To me it’s not about the ultimate perfection at all but, doing the best we can with the tools we have, realistically, at any given time. They have to make a return, on top, sadly, that’s how it’s run. Our best selling UK scales can be done far better nowadays but, it’s hard to change, as we all want that compatibility. TT:120 dangles that carrot, let’s see? Thanks for invoking Drew 👍
I've collected 00 for years but it mostly just sits in its box. As I don't have a space for a railway and I have been trying for years to make it work (I don't like end to end layouts as my main layout). I don't like N gauge it's too small for me.
So is this the perfect gauge? I don't know I need to see it running but they are not releasing this to model shops so how am I going to do this easily ? On your comparison pictures I liked TT the best so I'm hopeful!
To see these running, It'll have to be on a Hornby exhibition stand or on line & I'm working at weekends when they're on! Hopefully I can review something in TT, at some point.
@@modeloco it will be interesting to see how the second hand market grows too :)
@@mrbenn180 Quite a long way down the line... me naturally hopes! Do we give up the allure of flickering fireboxes & steam generators for TT. Watch this space!
The picture at the 16:00 minute mark is also wrong for N gauge. Across the world there are 3 main scales for N gauge. We have 1:148 in the UK, 1:150 in Japan and 1:160 for most of the rest of tbe world.
Hi Neil, Thank you, yes. What started out as a quick comparison doing this video, opened and, still opens the floodgates, when you begin to really look. I do move on to, a more inclusive, diagrammatical image, also adding subtitles, just after publishing, at the 21:00 min mark, to help clarify the facts, you kindly highlight, again here. Hope this helps, very much appreciated though. If you feel this subtitle needs lengthening to cover the earlier picture, let me know, as I’m only a one man band. Don’t always see the bigger picture, as it were but, thanks to this community 👍
@@modeloco the trouble with opening cans of worms like N gauge and other gauges is you often need a bigger can to put them back into. The 2 popular, 3 if you include TT, railway modelling sizes have been forced to go to larger scales because we couldn't fit motors made in the UK into our models. The funny thing is that the British Model Railways Standards Bureau tried to make EM the standard size for 4mm/ft modelling but the manufacturers, primarily Hornby at the time, refused to change once manufacturing of toys resumed after WW2.
@@modeloco The comparison between OO and HO at 20:00 looks wrong. The HO looks bigger but should be smaller
@@vincebagusauskas278 Hi Vince, I’m not sure if it’s an optical illusion but, yes can see what you’re saying now. I used various diagrams, at first to, simply establish where TT:120 sits, graphically, in the mix between our other scales, as it were and, used various diagrams to illustrate that. The other pictures, before and after, show the difference, with respect to HO & OO, that are very close, more so on screen, more clearly hopefully. The downside of being a one man outfit, not having a team to cross check but, an upside, having a community of passionate modellers to help. Thanks 🙏
Peco track is code 55 and Hornby is code 80. Will they match up and look good together?
There definitely seems to be a colour difference too, from what I can see. Not a fan of set track on visible runs, with OO, due to the bracing and, TT:120 track seems the same. Hornby points are self isolating for DC running, out of the box and have a plastic frog. For me, Peco would be the way to go from scratch.
I was looking at getting into the hobby now I'm retired but saw the prices and nearly had a heart attack, sorry Hornby lost another potential customer due to the extravagant costs.
It soon adds up, agreed. There are two discounts that can be applied on Hornby TT:120 which are reward points (for next order, once added after an initial period so, always check to see they’re on) and, the TT membership instant discount plus, free P&P over £50 on orders. This does make it far cheaper than prices shown but, even as a kid, this was always a lot more than expected to do it properly and run new, quality products.
OMG. That's half an hour of my life I'll not get back.
It was released before TT:120 came to market. The ‘one year on’ may give you more 🙏
Hi
I found this very interesting compared to Hornby s stream
I lost interest when dcc was introduced
It is not how modelrailway were intended
I still like using manual points and I run thre locos plus one on shunting yard where it have much joy on doing
That’s very kind Phil. A shunting yard can bring so much joy. Only yesterday I was trying to imagine the best simple shunting yard track plan for my own TT:120 layout that I’ve been on with?
Im not sure TT120 has so much a place in the UK, as it's so near the established N
On the slides, it appears midway- but something to remember is that british N is a different scale to US and Continental
We model at 1:148, wheras US/ Europe is 1:160
HO is 1:87
OO is 1:76
So the TT120 is not so near to being a mid-scale in the UK
Yes, found all this out whilst in the making of this video. Won’t let go of OO but, have embraced this too. Does sit well with me and, even after getting a model in hand now, does look a lot smaller than it’s OO counterparts but, just enough so. Always found N too big a leap but, it’s personal choice. Thanks for your thoughts and time will tell I guess
British N gauge is 1/148th not listed in the last picture
Thank You! Have now amended with subtitle when discussing that part of the last picture
British 3mm has track of 14.2mm gauge.
Thank You. I know there's about three scales under the N umbrella
This is just a suggestion, why don't TT use rechargeable batteries ( ballast is a advantage), with battery technology at high level, no need to clean tracks recharge can be picked up by the tracks, running of locomotives by remote control (also at high level technologically)
Very good point. A lot more room in an interchangeable Tender, than in a Faller Lorry!
@@modeloco I had a similar thought for OO in the garden, would solve a few of the issues presented by taking a model layout outside.
This is the scale for me I think.
I want a little train running around my work desk but N gauge is to delicate and you don't get to enjoy the little deails as much. OO gauge is just to big.
Yes, certainly see your point. Can’t wait to see one being put on a track by hand and put through its paces
Just saw this video I'm curious these tabletop on twenties isn't the same size as the Z scale model trains I don't see what's the difference do you?
@@georgeplagianos6487 TT:120 is a lot larger in size in comparison to Z scale which is very small of course.
@@modeloco thanks for correcting that for me I didn't see the whole video to actually see what the different sizes were then I realized the size you're talking about the tt120 is between ho and the N garage. Thanks for mentioning it
Thanks for the video upload, very interesting. I have a good amount of current tt production and have preordered the easterner set, it'll be very interesting to see how it compares with tillig, or even, dare I say it: berliner!
Btw the origin behind 00 scale actually had nothing to do with propulsion, it was due to the British loading gauge, and they kept the 16.5mm gauge not because of economy, but because it was correct for the scale Greenly chose.
In older publications theres many letters from Henry Greenly regarding his decisions about creating 00 scale, he did mention about once that it was an additional benefit that it did allow larger motors to be fitted (you'll note larger motors, inferring that smaller ones were freely available, which makes sense as the bing motor from the twenties is absolutely tiny, as is the bing table railway loco :)
Also just fyi, in earlier times the moniker 00 was used to describe pretty much any size train below the size of 0 gauge, it was only Henry Greenly who actually gave a designated scale to British 00, which was a bit of a thing seeing as later the Germans labeled 1:87 16.5mm gauge as 00, and of course US 00 was 1:76 19mm gauge... everyone seeming to ignore HG and WJ B-L
Thank you! I was led to believe the British loading gauge couldn't house the original mechanisms, hence the slight hike in scale. An interesting history indeed.
@@modeloco now, this is from Henry Greenly in the early thirties (fyi my oldest model railway magazine is 1909): it was to do with wheels, axle boxes, and the casting technology available at the time. The bogies ended up x width due to wheel width, and of course the axle housings had to encompass them. With the narrow bodies of the BR loading gauge (many 3'6" railway systems having a wider loading gauge) the rolling stock ended up outside the width of the bodies, so in order to keep "the look" correct the bodies were enlarged to 4mm scale, the 16.5mm gauge being enough to offset the large bogie castings. You remember those older (e.g lima) n scale coaches from the seventies, how the bogies looked thick and chunky and fat etc, this was the same effect that Greenly recognized and wanted to alleviate to some degree.
One of the things that's regularly overlooked is the popular image of 00 (not withstanding the extremely early bing table railway) consisting of crude trix, or maybe dublo which had quite fine standards for the time.
The perception is why bother with any standards with that crude old stuff? There were handcrafted products available at the time which would stand with any product from today: but, as an indication, a prewar example is a 00 castle at 26 pounds, when the hornby 0 princess Elizabeth was considered expensive at 5 pounds. Greenly's standards were for this kind of market
@@muir8009 Great information. Thank You!
For anyone who is interested...
G = 1:32
O = 1:48
S = 1:64
OO = 1:76
HO = 1:87
TT = 1:120
N = 1:160
Z = 1:220
Before anyone flames me, I know these aren't 100% accurate. Scales vary slightly by manufacturer.
And track gauge doesn't always match with the scale, especially in OO scale (which uses HO gauge track) and G scale.
Fascinating subject, once you start looking.
Bear in mind that as 00 gauge in the rest of the world is HO (both run on same size track) , N gauge is also like this as N Scale in the rest of the world is 1:160, in the UK its 1:148 but both n scales run on the same size track
@@ThePleb Right. I'm American and my layout is HO, but I have a number of British trains like the APT-E in OO scale. My British OO trains run just fine on my HO track. And even if I park a British OO train right next to an American HO train, you have to look closely to see a slight difference in overall size.
@@ThePleb It's all very fascinating, yes!
N "scale" is mess as, unlike OO/HO, there is no differentioation.
UK: 1:148
Europe, USA, Japan (Shinkansen): 1:160
Japan Standard Gauge (3'6"): 1:150
O, then there is 2mm scale at 1:152!
Exactly Chris, thought, recognised standards in kitchens, bulbs & beds were bad enough.
I have heard of 009 scale,,,whats that?
If you imagine OO scale models running on N gauge track, rather than the usual HO gauge. This is done to represent our narrow gauge railways, that is roughly 009. Good comment.
On a separate note, EM gauge track, more accurately represents how wide apart, the track rails should actually be, for OO scale models. Obviously, these models have to have their wheel spacing widened accordingly. As seen at the fabulously, expansive, Pendon Museum
TT120 scale never left the UK market. TT 3 was on the UK market in the 1960s and that was 1:101.6, and failed to break in to the market unlike the N gauge thatbarruved in the k around the same time offering significant space savings. That picture of the Ivatt 2-6-2T is showing OO, TT3 and N gauge, not TT120 models. The TT locomotive is approximately halfway between the N gauge and OO gauge variants, whereas in reality the TT120 version should be about 20mm longer than N gauge variant. The full size Ivatt 2-6-2T was 38ft 9.5in long, which in OO is 155.167mm, TT3 (as shown 98.431mm (in TT120 its 116.375mm) and in N it is 79.911mm. As the photo shows a roughly uniform reduction in size the middle locomotive can't be to the new scale.
I can see some 00 gauge modellers swapping scale, but not so much for the N Gauge modellers as 2.54mm/ft is much of an advantage over 2.06mm/ft in space required. Whilst it is more accurate in track gauge over both OO and N, but N is only 0.7mm under gauge so hardly noticeable from a reasonable viewing distance.
Brilliantly put Neil. Your attention to detail is quite staggering and very much appreciated. I used to turn mild steel, on a lathe to about 0.01mm by hand when my eyes were at their peak, so really enjoyed your focus to detail here. On a side note too, once we get to the fine increments in these materials the coefficient of linear expansion comes into play and, has a cumulative effect, as we see in laying our track and needing to leave a small gap. Fascinating
@@modeloco talking of track laying have you been to York station and seen the badly staggered track joint on the line to Scarborough? It's just one example of many rrors I've seen in reality that modellers are told to avoid. Keep up the good work.
Not strictly true about TT:120 being back on the market after 60 years, the original Tri-Ang was 3mm/ft or 1:101.6 as opposed to this new iteration (following the continental version) which scales to 2.54mm/ft
Only mentioned it being out of production in the UK market. As you rightly say, Triang TT, wasn't really in the Euro/US 1:120 scale but, fizzled out by mid sixties. Back now, in scale...
Small world, BIG dollars. 😊
Think i prefer Kato .
Not really looked into this Japanese manufacturer, as I do like the UK Steam & Early Diesel eras but, thanks for the heads up. You seem to hint that these are better value, maybe incorporating less detail, which I feel isn’t my cup of tea, to keep costs down?
@modeloco kato and Tomix both have a good reputation, but kato is believed to be bit better. This is an example of Kato 225 100 ua-cam.com/video/L8Pxq-e7LE0/v-deo.htmlsi=rNe5PByGaaWQYSov
from my outsiders perspective
uk is the one that different for every scale. you have n gauge that 148 scale (even in hornby promotional materials) and everyone else uses 160 then goes that whole tt 152 vs 120 if they showed tt 3mm compared to that bigger n they would be actually smaller trains in tt than in n but going by continental n and tt 120 is bigger than 160 by quite a lot
i had alwaysa a problem with this i am continental european modeler of a sort and my scale on n gauge should be 160 but watching many british modelers just because your videos are more fun to watch i got my scales mixed up and made my first locomotive model scratch build in the wrong scale...
tt120 might anger someone but hornby have access to runing gears tested for ages by continental companies it now owns so just modeing the outside of those models to fit into british market was only a mater of time
Well said. Most of us in the UK, have had a tough time too, over the years, getting to the bottom of why we scale, slightly differently here but, hope my look into it all helped. Plus, there really have been some great comments made on here, too. TT:120 is said, to be putting the record straight now. Hornby shares have even gone up so, let’s see what transpires.
It looks far smsller than 00 than id imagined it would be
I'd like to have one in my hands to really se. Thanks!
My wife would be up on a murder charge if I decided to switch to TT now, Ive bought OO all my adult life, love the idea of TT but far too much invested in OO.
This made me smile. Sure many of us are rowing the same boats here. Rapids ahead but, better than saying, oh... get me some socks or a fleece to model, pardon the pun, when celebrating another year of modelling.... er... OO... TT... N....Ohhhhhhh!
Don't Hornby own Arnold which also produces a limited TT range?
Yes, Arnold being their N scale range 1:160 in Europe & US. In the UK it's 1:148 that is used & I feel it's probably this scale you may mean. Both sit on the same gauge track. UK N scale being ever so slightly larger, of course but, it's not TT:120
U.K. n scale is 1-148 and in USA it’s 1-150.
Yes indeed Phil, thanks!
US and continental n scale is 1/160
@@seawuff Thanks! We have it covered in the video
I will be curious if it is truly TT and compatible with the German product, or with the Usual Brit panache of making their product just a tad larger (OO is not H0, O 1/43 is not 1/48, N 1/150 is not 1/160)? 😅
They definitely say it will. No more shenanigans which, for whatever reason, marketing or, as stated manufacturing decisions taken years ago, has really only served to cause more ‘own goals’ over time.
@@modeloco A possible Alt history; during WWII, the Brits made their Model Railroads a tad larger, so if the Wehrmacht invaded, they could not run their model trains on British Layouts. Now that is "Cheeky"!🤣
@@lesparks126 Well Les… what’s the use in worrying, it never was worthwhile so, pack up your OO gauge in an old kit bag and smile boy, smile 😃
And if TT120 is still too small, you can always go for 3mm scale! 3mm to 1ft, it is NOT the same as TT120 (2.5mm to 1ft).
Indeed! Thanks for the clarifications too.
Heljan were planning a class 31 but, as it is in Hornby's list, they have dropped out.
Yes, this has been noted a few times. Others have said, there were plans for other models too, that Hornby weren’t planning but, that these have been let go of as well. The news, has been taken, in various ways over the weeks since.
I heard that Marklin is producing an HO scale Flying Scotsman. What do you think?
From what I’ve seen, it looks great, it’s not cheap but, has all the bells and whistles, apart from a steam generator and, in HO, is correctly scaled to the track but, would look out of place, with all my other models in OO and some say the pipe work looked a bit out of context with the rest of it. What are your thoughts, feelings?
@@modeloco I like the idea that Scotsman could go with American locomotives without looking odd. Also it was said that it will had a smoke unit?
@SteamLocoMania It does have a smoke Unit yes, of course it does. Mmm, not a fan of Traction tyres. It's gonna be over £525.00 so, has really pushed the price barrier beyond most, I'd say.
@@modeloco yes definitely not a fan of the price
The set does say "The Scotsman" not "The Flying Scotsman"
I'll pass on the initial release as I don't want either set.
This looks idea for what I need but its just too new for me to invest yet.
Yes, the Pullman coaches aren’t the lit ones and it’s ’The Blink Bonny’ steam train, from the Scotsman service and, not a ‘Flying Scotsman’
£18 for a point ouch… not much encouragement to join or most importantly for newcomers to the hobby, is it a missed opportunity?
Good info and although lived at Ben Rhydding for a short while never got into the Ilkley shop! Best regards Stephen
Hey, you missed a treat at Ilkley Model Shop. Peco points, they’re up online at £15.25 if you go less local 👍
PS I’ve done a Part Two on TT:120 showing the Peco points and track, with a hands on look at a OO and TT:120 Mallard, side by side
@@modeloco I will take a look, many thanks.
Not sure this is going to stick or last. High risk of obsolete models for early adopters
It has thrown up a lot of debate, oceanfroggie. Many stating the same. Will we be able to resist though?
@@modeloco Only time will tell, but I'm happy to sit back and see if it sticks first rather than risk being an early adopter. I'm heavily invested in 4mm. Resistance is not futile :)
@@modeloco Good luck to them though, it could replace N gauge perhaps. We need less fragmentation. Many pals have started to invest in 7mm 0 Gauge which has a certain lure due to the sheer size and presence of the models.
@@oceanfroggie A wise frog, not jumping too soon!
its just an odd scale to be doing, 1:120, at that point you might as well just go with 1:160 that is N scale (1:150 for EU due to the narrower gauge representation, same 9mm track).
Thanks John, it's been an interesting journey into our slightly differing scales
The problem with TT120 for me is that perfect scale or not, it’s just too small for my tastes.
On the up side, certainly makes OO seem more of a breeze when you go back to it again, after a few months on the TT scale.
well there's N at 2mm, OO at 4mm, so why TT120 at 2.5mm. Surely TT at 3mm would have been the correct thing to do.
Doing this would have, once again, put us out of sync with the rest of the continent which is well established.
@@modeloco don't they run HO
@@rdrhouse Yes, HO is in the correct scale to the track. Our OO being slightly larger but, running on, what is in effect, the smaller HO gauge track. This means that the two scales can run together but, don’t look right of course running side by side and, don’t couple up well. TT:120 finally sorts this issue out because this scale is now locked into a standard scale, due to the 120 bit. Even N scale suffers from differing scale sizes, depending on which part of the world you live in. In the past we were all locked into buying more of the scale we already owned. It confused me for years.
@@modeloco i didn't ask whether any track was correct for the scale, i commented on your statement, that using 3mm scale (TT) would put us "out of sync with the rest of the continent which is well established." Well i thought 3.5mm scale (HO) is the established scale in these areas, and is the correct gauge for the scale, am i wrong? Do you know the relevance of HO to the history of model railways.
@@rdrhouse You’re correct 👍 . What I didn’t understand was, your response of, ‘don’t they run HO’ . Yes they do but, I had to try figure out what that has to do with TT:120 and responded best way I could. I took this to mean that you were probably unaware of how big TT:120 is already on the continent.
the mistake everyone makes , the flying scotsman was a scheduled service and not just the locomotive
Thank You. To clarify, was it called this or, ‘The Scotsman’ service?
@@modeloco it was called the flying scotsman , the service started in 1862 long before before the loco was built.. the service runs between London and Edinburgh
regards HO 1/87th. don't forget lima's breif incursion into HO with the class 33 and MkII coaches
and to point out clearly, that TT.120 does not seem to be compatible with 3mm TT modelling, as done in the U.K. Time will tell.
Yes, indeed, very similar
Its disappointing that Hornby are looking to cut out third party shops. This puts me off.
Yes, I hear what you're saying, & two years ago, would have agreed. Having studied some rather odd goings on over the years from a few larger UK retailers & lately, from a few very biased, on line influencers, since hopping back on board this great hobby, over a decade ago, am now on the fence about it Tam. Certain retailers, have grown exponentially & done very well out of major manufacturers in the past. This observed, I'm not sure, it's all good news for consumers & not surprised Hornby have gone on line only. The Model Shops & expertise that came with a sale, is all going on line & this can be seen both ways & in all walks of retail. ie If you want a Mac, you go to Apple & it cuts out scouring for latest deals or a decent, reputable retailer. I like that. It works but, agree a good genuine Model Shop, I genuinely adore too. Not the automated, unhelpful types, though, with a shop front but, little else to offer a novice or someone lacking basic knowledge. These have been slowly pushing the genuine ones out for years, I've been told on many occasions, sadly &, once able to buy in bulk, could undercut a local business, by mastering on line techniques quicker, to do so, to maximise sales here in UK & abroad, before beginning to set their sights on manufacturing. Am pretty sure this began hurting too, their major UK suppliers as well. So has this made the move to on line only more inevitable? Many consumers as well, looked in their local Model Shop but, bought cheaper elsewhere or on line, in the past, you can't blame them, it's an expensive hobby. Heard all this, so many times from small retailers yelling all or, part of this from the rafters on my travels. I do really feel for the small local, UK model shop businesses. I miss the characters we've lost, or who we are losing as well, the ones who may not have had the best social skills or sales techniques but, knew this hobby inside out & were truly passionate about it day in day out, year in year out, for decades. The ones who deep down actually put this amazing hobby & your modelling needs first.
@@modeloco There are a dwindling number of model shops, there are none now in my city, Oxford. The scene is becoming dominated by just a few and that isn't healthy either, so one way or another, for most of us, online shopping will become the norm. So from that point of view, I don't think what Hornby is planning to do is so bad, especially as this would be yet another gauge for shops to have to stock, which might mean having to reduce either stock or the range available in other gauges. I expect that if the other major manufacturers see that Hornby is making a success of this, they will be quick to follow in producing TT:120. I rather hope that Peco will not be so slow in extending their track range as they were with 00 Bullhead (which is magnificent stuff BTW), but I understand that the Pandemic rather got in the way of development, testing and production. A crossing and single/double slips could really set the pace of TT adoption, with some large radius points too. This would really get the "serious" modellers interested in developing sophisticated, detailed and realistic layouts. Space is a real problem for me and the size of N is also a problem. Despite having bought some fabulous 1:76 locomotives these last few years, I'd make the switch if Hornby and the others brought out the classic pre and post TOPS diesels and some of the less glamorous steamers, specifically the BR standards. I don't get the hype about detail. When you think that in 1:76 every 1mm is 3 inches, even the handrails on most models are oversized. Granted this brings into question how detailed TT:120 can be, it surely must even more so with N.
All in all, I think this is probably the best and most exciting news in the hobby for years.
@@janeswift9961 Well said Jane. Did look at my layout developments and thought. This new scale would offer so much more space. Could even fit a helix in, without too much hassle, depending on pulling power. We all eagerly await these Loco’s, coming down the line.
should have stuck to UK 3 mm its not the way to go this scale
Thank you. Would be interesting to know why you feel this way?
Not to be "that guy," but... how can this be the 'perfect scale' when it's (from what I gather) proprietary?
Wouldn't 'perfect' include the ability to get parts/models/rolling stock/etc anywhere?
Just my 02¢
Hello, thanks for your response. The “?” afterwards, making this a question not, a statement. It’s why I asked and, you’ll be glad to hear, you’re not the only “that guy” and, that Hornby have clearly pointed out the reasoning, behind their decision, (after beginning this scale again in the UK) at this initial stage, being distributed in this way. As a consumer, knowing I’m not going to buy, then find it cheaper, after my purchase on a lesser known site is great, plus, after seeing products being hoarded in the past and resold for overly inflated prices, can fully understand this, as I too, can fully appreciate the smaller retailers feeling abandoned. That isn’t good either. Marketing is a fair throw from scale but, yes, fair point. Peco are selling too, in the usual way with others now coming on board. Hope this helps in whatever currency we use 🙂 2p or not 2p
@@modeloco Great reply. Thanks!