The Great TT:120 Debate - Reviewing Hornby's recent announcement and it's implications.
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- Опубліковано 21 лип 2024
- The recent TT:120 announcements from Peco and Hornby may have gone unnoticed by many modelers who have no interest in switching to a different scale in the immediate future.
The launch is not without consequence however for any Hornby customer. Does the introduction of this scale make sense right now and what are the consequences of this move by Hornby in particular? It's time to take a closer look.
00:00 - Introduction and Agenda
01:41 - Opinions on TT:120
08:31 - Relative Space Requirements
10:38 - My own thoughts on TT:120
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/ euvirail - Розваги
As a very occasional modeller, TT120 looks interesting to me, not least because it avoids the 1:76/1:87 difference. I like the idea of displaying foreign and UK hardware together on the same track. I’ll try out a TT120 train set when available.
Thanks David. If I was in your shoes I would probably look to try it out as well.
It looks interesting to me. I haven't modelled for years, but coming back into it, this scale would work well. As for product support, as long as track is available, scratch building is always an option. Frankly, outside of locomotives, I prefer scratch/kit built anyway.
but it HAS created a brand new dilemma/ difference - between 1:100 [actually 101.6] the original TT scale IN BRITAIN and 1:120 [the foreigners' 'Imperial' not metric scale!] - between 3mm:ft [1mm representing 4"] and 2.54mm:ft [er, um 1mm representing 3.3867"!?!] - stupid really
I think it is a fantastic development in general. I am too far down the road with my HO/OO layout to change now. But If I was starting a new layout a fresh I would be on this double quick time. The compatibility with European TT would be a huge factor for me too. I think what Hornby and Peco are doing is genius in fact. I saw some TT layouts in Germany years ago and I can clearly recall thinking to myself at the time 'this is the perfect scale'.
Thanks for that. I haven't seen it "in the flesh" yet but it does look like a good compromise scale between 00 and N.
@@EuviRail I got some more interesting info on this from someone on the inside and this is going to be a whole new approach to marketing model railways outside that of the traditional hobby scene. Games Workshop style. The idea is to sell model trains to the general public as a 'take the layout of of the box and then pack it away when finished' - like GW Fantasy or 40K games. There will be highly detailed scenic modules to conform to the radius of the track for people who do not want to make scenery. Everything plug and play but to a very high quality. Traditional modellers will still build their classic layouts so there is something for both markets. Before Games Workshop wargaming was a very small hobby. Now look at it. So potentially this is something of a watershed in the history of model trains.
I'm actually quite excited about the TT 120 announcement from Hornby. That doesn't mean I'll be walking away from 00 though. I have a large 00 steam era layout which is still very much work in progress. I've been wanting to build a separate more modern image layout too though but don't have the space for it. Not having very good eyesight N scale would be a bit small and fiddly for me but TT looks a good compromise. I've actually pre ordered one of the starter sets and am eyeing up the TT HST and Class 50! I wish Hornby well in their new venture and really hope it's a success.
Thanks Rob. Looks like a few people on here are going to do the same thing for similar reasons. Sounds good to me.
As someone looking at downsizing from OO to N due to house size constraints the announcement of TT:120 has caught my attention as the perfect middle ground of OO's details and performance and N gauge's size. Here's hoping Bachmann and Dapol invest into it as well.
Thanks for your comments. I suspect Bachmann and Dapol are struggling with this one given their market position in N gauge. Agree though that multiple vendors are needed to increase the range of models more rapidly and help keep everyone honest. Yours sounds like the one of the classic use cases for TT:120.
TT:120 is for many a good idea, simply because it’s a compromise which fits modern homes and life styles, but the problem is Hornby have effectively strangled the market by trying to control all sales direct to them, most people who they are trying to appeal to will look in the shops , toy shops , model shops and places like Amazon. As a result sales will be low and then they will offload the stock saying it is a loss maker, as such the idea is probably dead on arrival.
I agree with this
Agree on both points. You can't create a new standard (for the UK) on your own and you need your channel partners to help push adoption. Hornby looking to go it alone on both fronts. Thanks for commenting.
Is this just another case of bad British business decisions like the post WW 2 car industry failures? Steve Robinson
I am really interested in TT120, to me it seems the ideal answer to a smaller space house. I would like to see them on sale in model shops though.
That's what N Gauge has been doing since the 1960s. The difference between British N Gsuge and TT is 0.48mm/ft, so there is no benefit for TT over N Gsuge.
@Nigel UK56 not being a spring chicken either, I'm not finding it a problem. My father, in his 80s is modelling in 0 and having to put onto his models all the fiddly little details that I can omit. His layout is not much larger than mine in area.
@Nigel UK56 whilst what you say is true the difference is a mean 3mm in track gauge. You might as well go to 00 as that is 4.5mm wider than TT. You aren't be the only one with poor eyesight.
Any way it's funny that Hornby is now pushing a new scale for the UK when they were instrumental in the stopping of accurate track in the 1940s.
As a diehard N'Gauge modeller I would probably be sticking with N'Gauge as there are many nice stuff in N'Gauge these days it will take years for TT to catch up to the same level as N'Gauge
100% understandable and it will take a long time to achieve equivalence. Thanks for sharing.
I think it has the potential to explode in popularity overnight.
@@EuviRail Btitidh N Gauge is half a mm per foot smaller than N Gauge, and to the same level of detailing, making TT pointless.
I’m excited for TT. Not had a set since I was a kid.
TT is a great size for my house. I’d looked at other scales in the past but always found it too confusing and unclear as to what manufacturers supported others.
TT is that safety net of knowing there is a decent range of locos available at launch, with hopefully more on their way.
If I find my confidence with TT1:120, it might even be my gateway into other small scales.
I do feel for the model shop owners, but having said that, since the announcement of Hornby TT, I’ve already visited more model shops in the last month than I had in the previous 10 years, and have spend money on modelling books, scenery and some die cast 1:120 models. And I think that’s a really important part of what was missed in the video; brining new people and a new audience into the model community.
I’m not saying the other scales are probably better for existing modellers, but for me it’s a nice way to ease into model railways and have my hand held a bit.
Surely TT can’t be a bad thing if it bring more people into the model community? I really don’t see it as Hornby forcing any existing modellers to switch over. I think it’s a great way for new people to join the community. For me, the biggest risk associated with it is the worry that TT modellers May not feel welcomed by the community.
Many Thanks for your comments Chris and I can assure you that TT:120 modelers (and any new modelers) are more than welcome to the community. I would hope that TT:120 can be a vehicle for new people to enter the hobby who wouldn't have had the opportunity otherwise. We're all in this together. I 100% agree with you in terms of the impact of the model shops and they provide a service to the industry that I fear is undervalued. Not bringing them to the party is a mistake which I hope will be rectified over time. If Hornby can deliver good quality models that look and run well, then TT:120 will be both an excellent starting point for modelers like yourself and a potential transition option for established modelers down the road. There is marketing and reality of course. So one thing I try to do on this channel is to cut to the reality - which can be painful at times. The proof of the pudding is in the eating so we look forward to seeing what Hornby serve up in December!
@@EuviRail Thanks for your reply. Just to clarify, reading back over my previous comment, when I spoke about potentially not being welcomed by the community I should have probably said “some corners of the community” rather than generalising …but I don’t include you in that!
I think you seem to have a very fair and balanced view of TT. But I do hope TT doesn’t flop and brings some new people into the community, but I also hope that they let other retailers stock it. I do wonder how successful it will be at attracting new people if they hide it away on their website. Will need either a big marketing push so people know it’s out there, or they’ll need to allow others to sell and to allow people to see it on shelves in stores
I might have gone for TT:120 a few years back when my OO collection was much smaller, but it's not really worth it for me now, I do like compact micro layouts, I'm just too invested in OO at this point to switch, the lack of competition throwing in their hats and aggressive get it through us direct or nothing is alarming to say the least.
Thanks for sharing Richard. I think it's the same for a lot of other folks who are too heavily invested in a different scale to make the move now.
I have pre-ordered the Easterner Set from Hornby, more out of curiosity than anything else! I had earlier obtained some Triang TT gauge, but came to the conclusion that it was to primitive by modern standards. I am glad that Hornby is introducing TT:120. I think it is good because it will enable modellers to make a better representation of a real station. In OO gauge, you are hard pushed even if you have an 8 x 4 baseboard! I think the reference to TT3 modellers and OO gauge model shop owners being upset is not relevant. There are hardly any TT3 layouts in the entire universe. Striking out to create a new scale is the right thing for Hornby to have done. Thanks for uploading.
Take a look at the quality of the German stuff from Tillig, Piko and Arnold. If Hornby are going to match that then they've set the bar high from the outset.
@@marcosborne6540 Don't Hornby own Arnold?
@@andrewstevenson5449 yep, and Rivarossi, Jouef, Lima and Electrotren. They acquired them all when they bought the Rivarossi group
Thanks Allen. The space/size compromise aspect is coming through a lot in the feedback for sure. If you've gone with N and are happy with it then no discussion but some folks aren't happy with N and see TT as the sweetspot.
@@EuviRail I created a Facebook group for Hornby OO Gauge. Afrer II added "and the new TT:120" to the byline, a lot more people joined! From this I conclude there is a large pent-up demand for TT:120, and that Hornby has made the right decision to introduce British outline in this scale. I recommend you order the Easterner Set, as the the Pullmans in the other "Scotsman" set do not have lights, but the non-train set Pullmans will be lit, in true Hornby, tradition! Please post a link to your uploads, and contribute to the discussion as this will get you more views! Thanks.
I am very interested in TT120 and have pre-ordered the two starter sets and may order more once I map out a design. I look forward to seeing the scale enter into the US market.
Thanks for commenting Ivan.
It may be strange to say, but Hornby have just released a gauge that appears to be waining on the continent. Before the Covid epademic, I travelled to Germany at least twice a year. New leaflets from the manufacturers such as Faller, Kibri & Vollmer alwas seem to have some TT gauge models listed. Today, there appears to be nothing. Unless someone steps in to provide the back-up for the scale, it will be very hard to market. Having spend a lot of time and money on producing the scale, this could be the make or break for the company.
Interesting point. The depth of European support for TT is touted by some though how many people would bring in European TT models is open to question. I can see lots of people tapping into buildings etc. from the likes of Kibri and Vollmer alright - assuming they're still available. Thanks for posting.
Being a TT scale modeller in Hungary for 40 plus years, I have to admit that TT was close to disappear in the early ‘90s -after the German unification and the economic downturn.
However after 2000 the scale not only revived, but grew rapidly - mainly as a result of TILLIG production. Some other smaller companies entered the market soon, while ROCO has twice entered and abandoned it. However PIKO is also active. Still not comparable to H0.
For Germans primarily there is a wide variety of rolling stock for all Era. Czech Republic, Poland and Slovakia is also active.
I am not really aware of anything major in the US.
@@raffica26 Thanks for that. Yes, Tillig seem to be the main player at the moment with a pretty good range and good value.
Thank you for making this video. I cannot see OO scale modellers changing Scale. They have already invested their money. As for the new generation, TT might meet their requirements but, I think if you were to ask the average child in the street I think their main answer would be "What is TT? Is that a new game I can play on my mobile Phone? This could be the end of Hornby unless someone buys them out. They never listen to what the customer is saying. and never own up to their own mistake. Martin. (Thailand)
Hi Martin, thanks for commenting. The point on TT awareness is a concern in light of the lack of retail channel support. The likes of Smyths Toys or Hattons can do a lot for stimulating of brand awareness with the buying public - more than a website and some UA-cam or Tik-Tok videos. Simon doesn't do admission of mistakes!
This range really appeals to me, I have limited space and I'm a complete novice. Ideally I'd like to build a 6ft layout and TT120 would allow me to hopefully have a decent sized layout.i must agree though that there needs to be access to the range in model shops etc
Thanks Nigel
I like the concept and the wide range of models Hornby has announced for TT; however I already have a large amount of HO ( Roco,Piko, Amintiri Feroviare ) and OO (Hornby, Triang, Airfix, Dapol) rolling stock and track, plus I have invested a lot of money into them already, so unfortunately I would not go for the new Hornby TT range
Thanks for commenting Vladimir. 100% understandable.
Been waiting for your take on this...
Good to see the usual gang back
Yeah, it's been like a monkey on my back since the Hornby announcement.
@@EuviRail probably the biggest issue is the fuzzy idea of an international market. Theres basically hornby, a wagon from peco, and thats it. Otherwise its all European prototype, yet they didn't mention this while pumping up an American market in a way to suggest there is an american prototype range out there, which there is really not. You can get some box car kits not much else. This whole international market business is pretty much predicated on selling it to the niche community of german tt modellers who probably arent interested en masse
@@EuviRail you can also add in the silly costs of doing business with the EU as a British company. If you main and biggest TT:120 market is Europe, it doesn't make much sense at all to offer british TT:120 and use the international market as a reason for having done it. The people you're already asking to take a leap into foreign models are also asked to take a leap into dealing with huge import delays and additional costs that I don't see hornby being keen on shouldering.
This is possibly already an issue for them in the office with the european brands they own and trying to negotiate it all to come up with a good profit so this just seems even more bizarre.
Another good video, really like your debate videos as you take a step back and look at the big picture of the hobby in general and give valid and nuanced points. This is quite rare for hobbies to have but its fantastic when you get it!
Also will you be attending The Warley Model Railway Show in November?
Many Thanks for that. I have some more mundane commitments that clash I'm afraid but it's great to see the shows running again and I look forward to getting to a few when I put some of my other commitments behind me.
@@EuviRail understandable, but a shame. I and others in my club were hoping to get to see you there, maybe another time!
I'll be sticking with OO, but I've got nothing against TT:120 in principle. I admire the 'big bang' approach from Hornby with the magnitude of the range announced, but I'm not sure the distribution, marketing or timing is quite right. But then I thought that iPads, vaping and TikTok were terrible ideas destined to fail, so we'll probably all be on TT:120 by 2025. My recent experience of Hornby is that their models aren't as good as other manufacturers, yet they're prices are higher. I would have preferred that Hornby put their investment into innovation and technology to improve model quality and production. Apart from my 2020 range orders (that still haven't materialised), I'm avoiding buying from them and trying to support the likes of Accruscale, Rapido and Dapol who seems to be pushing the hobby forward.
Thanks for that. I'm with you on all your points (apart from iPads which I've always loved). TT has me torn, my head is full of concerns including Hornby's existing 00 range - which I believe has suffered already as a result of their TT investments. I like the scale and it could be that sweetspot between N and 00 that wins people over. The execution is another matter and the promotion/route to market. I'm not sure a single vendor can make this successful going it alone. There is a massive diversity of views in the comments and I think in most cases people are making valid points either way. The first sets are due in Dec so we'll know more when they arrive....
I think that the likes of Accurascale, Cavalex and Rapido etc are showing Hornby up somewhat with far better products at much more sensible prices. Hornby were a Toy company to start with and although they have pulled up their socks up somewhat over the years, the elastic used in their socks is starting to slacken off and their falling back to their Toy roots and Toy quality. I have always been happy with Bachmann products in both OO and N gauge and recently Heljan have caught my eye. I have a Scotsman TT:120 set up for sale currently.
I started a project series using my Hornby OO but it was taking up too much space, When I spotted the TT:120 scale I thought I would shift but the range from Pico/Hornby is just to small and has noting that fits my project need yet.
Yeah Adam, it's early days for UK TT I'm afraid. Thanks for commenting.
May I comment as an ex-modeller? My first model railway when I was a child was a Triang TT - Tintagel Castle, some coaches and wagons - all put together on a modestly sized board by the local shop my father bought it from. The TT vanished and the thing just got discarded. I revisited railways in the early 80s, with 00, and it lasted until a change of house meant that was that. I didn't realise the issue with dealers and Hornby, but over the years, so many things I have bought into have faded away and changed - Phillips VCRs, then beta, VHS, H-8 and S-VHS, then of course DVD and Blu-ray. Why are trains different? N was too small, and 00 perhaps just a little too big. The strange track to scale size error didn't;t bother me. TT:120 seems a hole in the market. The 3mm old scale I had assumed was long gone. I think all the video comments just seemed unbalanced. Anything that encourages a hobby to newcomers can't be bad, can it? The people complaining want no change - that is rarely how hobbies work nowadays? If I invested in trains again, from scratch, I think TT:120 could actually work for me? PS I worked for video dealers and spares support from Sony, Toshiba and Sanyo was extremely good. It failed because of numbers. Radio rentals and others ONLY rented VHS, the Baird clone of the Ferguson/JVC
Thanks for that. Could see your ancestry alright from the comments - I've lived through and participated in all of your examples (apart from Triang TT)!
I'm looking alot at TT120 as a very good compromise between OO and N gauge but I won't make any purchases until more trains are released and hopefully more manufactures will be on board to support it (I'm looking at you Murphy rail)
It's going to be a bit of a wait and see I guess by the others. Thanks for commenting.
I am a total newcomer to the UK modelling scene, and am devouring as much data and general information as possible before commiting to a particular scale. Much of my information is derived from popular sites such as yours and already I have pared my viewing preference to about 3 channels, one of which is yours. I would like to thank you for presenting your content in a calm, temperate and balanced manner. I live on a fixed income so value for money and start up costs are very important to me. Another of my favourite channels devotes considerable time and effort in exposing the exorbitant costs demanded by some British manufacturers (ie Hornby) for poor or inferior products. Your comments on the reasons behind this strategy resonated with me, and may be a major factor when I ultimately decide which scale path to follow
Untill then, thankyou for sharing your experience with us 'new boys' and I look forward to continuing my voyage of discovery with the help of you and a couple of alternative presenters. Mike P-J
Thanks for that and I'm glad you're finding the channel of use. Getting a decent model at a fair price is something close to my heart and it can be challenging at times. I think one of my upcoming videos might be of particular interest so watch this space....
I'm target market. Always wanted trains, never had space or money. TT is a little more affordable and a lot smaller. I have preordered the set and have 900£ in wishlist. My son is v excited too. I think that's the point, grow the market, not canabalise.
Thanks for that. Yeah, for greenfield layouts, TT ticks a lot of boxes.
This video seems unduly biased against TT:120. The vast majority of comments I have seen are positive about the new scale. Personally I would have loved to see the old TT sized models running on 14.2mm track (the old Triang TT being the most ascetically pleasing size to view in my opinion), but realisticly that was never going to happen. I will wait and see what their class 47 looks like before I decide whether to venture into any modelling in this scale. Hornby have said that the models may be available via retailers in the future, but I guess that will mean adding their cut on top of the existing prices, something I'm guessing Hornby wanted to avoid in the launch, keeping it as cheap as possible.
I don't have a particular issue with TT:120 as a scale and state this in the video. It could be an optimum scale for new adopters or people downsizing. I have concerns in not having at least one other manufacturer to help push it as a standard for UK models, accelerate the delivery of a broader range and also to help keep Hornby honest. Also, not having the push you would get from the retail channels for a new product like this could inhibit take up. Having a better margin on product that isn't selling isn't a recipe for success. Hornby should know their business better than the rest of us so I hope they've fully considered all the consequences for their approach. Thanks for commenting.
I am a 00 modeller at the moment with plans to build a large layout in my 20ft shed. I will however build myself a TT120 layout for use indoors as it requires less space. I think if successful Hornby will set up a dealer network for the scale, but they have to start somewhere, on-line only for a few years will help. My biggest concern is that production of the new scale will detract from production of 00 in China as I suspect that priority will now be given to TT120.
Thanks for your comments. Would share your concern. Unless the factories in China are increasing capacity to compensate then there will have to be an impact somewhere.
i am still confused about what n scale is
because tracks are 9mm but there is 1:160 version and 1:148 version and where i live n models were always 1:160 scale for a long time and this is what i make my models in
but hornby makes n scale 1:148 only? is this a british thing?
UK use 1:148, and Japan 3'6" 1:150, effectively the same scale, and both use the standard 9mm track.
But Japan standard gauge trains use 1:160, as does the rest of the world.
There are also a tiny number of [non powered] models of UK locos made in 1:160.
I think that UK went to the larger scale, to fit the then available motors into their smaller sized loco bodies and thus screwed everything up for the future. Now there are high speed trains that run between England and the continent,
which scale?
There are also models in 1:144, mainly covering WWII, but include boats & planes, that are close enough to fit in with 1:150, but visually too big for 1:160.
I was very interested initially, however, I live in Australia, which means I'd be at the mercy of the AUD/GPB exchange rate for anything I want to buy for TT120. Without model shop support, I think Hornby have made a grave mistake.
Thanks Richard. Agree on the model shop front. They could have really helped push TT for Hornby. A high margin product with poor adoption doesn't make sense at the end of the day.
Digital voice-overs should be mentioned as such.... regardless, I think there is room for another scale...!
As a American who typically models HO, I got into TT for modeling 42” gauge equipment used in Newfoundland, i have some agreement of needing the hornby equipment as peco’s flex track could be annoying and there is a need for segments and wide curves for running the larger equipment. In addition i see use in the 6 axel diesels and atleast 2 of the 4-6-2’s for making specific locomotives used on the line.
As for regular TT, i see it as another parts source, unfortunately my track currently held is berliner (curves are so tight only the trolleys can make it around) thus leaving it up to what i can find. Berliners are good but parts are scarse, following it is the HP Products which the cars are great (all kits tho) the locos have there quirks but most now are well over 60 years of age, parts have to be custom made.
Thanks for sharing another perspective on this. Hornby's introduction will certainly enhance the broader TT space.
DEATH OF MODEL RAILWAYS ???
I think what is far more important are the reasons behind Hornby's decision to dive into TT 1:120, and whether this is a bit of a panic or kneejerk reaction to major problems in the marketplace. There is rapidly growing evidence across the whole of Europe that the model railway market is taking a nosedive.
The Internet is rapidly killing off Newspapers, books, & magazine sales. 50% of all Model Railway magazine titles across Europe have disappeared in just the last 10 years!
Organisations like Amazon are effectively killing town centres, as even cities like Bristol are visibly dying with boarded up shops everywhere. This "lack of need" to go shopping, just buy it on the internet, means hobby shops being specialized niche markets are suffering badly.
Many specialised expert model railway shops have vanished, in the last twenty years. Replaced in a limited degree by back street "internet" shops, solely interested in the "financial throughput" not the expertise end of the hobby. But even these now also seem to be vanishing. A clear indication the market is now shrinking.
Indeed probably the best example is Nurnberg the Toy & Hobby City of Europe since 1645. Germany has always been the biggest Model Railway market place in Europe. Which 30 years ago had in excess of 20 large model railway shops. But as of 2023 only two are left.
In Spain the problem is far worse, as there appears to have been around a 75% shrinkage in just 5 years. With 28 model railway shops, now down to just 6 or 7 in the whole of Spain.
Hornby's CEO was saying just a year ago, that Hornby had to increase customer numbers, or the future was bleak ! Indeed Hornby have only themselves to blame in opening the door near 30 years ago to a rapid rise in competitors. Thanks to Hornby's then move to the Sandakan plant in Hong Kong. Which showed virtually every model railway manufacturer in Europe that production costs could be massively reduced if you moved to China. Opening the door to many newcomers as well.
Now the China "bubble" appears to be bursting, & certainly Hornby has been looking to relocate production back to Britain. But much of its current "OO" range tooling is NOT owned by Hornby. And the opportunity to introduce TT scale is based on a long term & growing problem that the average "Home" size, has been shrinking steadily all across Europe for 30+ years. Meaning the traditional 8 x 4 layout is now not an option. So a smaller scale is the only way out of the dilemna, but may prove financially fatal, (huge investment is needed in tooling) if the market is shrinking as suddenly & rapidly as it is beginning to appear. If Hornby fails, most of its current competitors are likely to fall with it, as they rely on Hornby providing the track & other peripherals to get started !!!
Challenging times for sure and the China shift will be seizmic but it needs to happen. The deniers will say that no one else can produce cost effective models. What about Kato in Japan? Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
TT would be a clean sheet - Manufacturers would not be competing with 25 years of decent secondhand (+older) so I can see the attraction from a commercial point of view. I am surprised that Hornby have ignored Sound (DCC running on analog is an option ) in their marketing as this has a power to draw people in (The price argument may have trumped this).
TT 2.5mm is established and has been ticking away in Eastern Europe for decades Piko, Tillig, Arnold and Roco are some of the manufacturers - The scale is nice but hardly mainstream after all these years.
I am glad Hornby are operating a closed shop on TT - For a shop, the pressure to stock more is huge. For example I import some German O Gauge - the models are as brilliant as they are niche (In the UK at least) Just 2 manufacturers (Lenz and KM-1) have announced over 200 Loco models this year (If you count livery variations) They will trickle in over the next 5 years, but if I do not order immediately I will not get the stock. That is a huge stock decision to make. In HO it is more extreme, French manufacturer REE have 1,500 models in this years price list. And I deal with 6 other large manufacturers... So no rush to TT from me Cheers for the films. Chris
Thanks for your comments Chris. I don't envy you with having to order for a 5 year horizon like that and dealing with REEs 1500 models. I can see that stocking a TT range on top of that would less than desirable! You're the first to mention sound. It would have been on my wishlist alright.
I have been thinking about starting a model railway for some time, but 00 gauge is too large and N too small. For me this new TT gauge fits right in the middle and won't take up too much room. I can't see how it is going to affect current modelers in 00 or N as they will just carry on along the path (or rail) they have chosen.
Thanks Colin. A lot of folks thinking along the same lines.
Having built oo & n gauge layouts was just about to start a new n-gauge layout when Hornby announced TT 120. I decided to get the 2 starter train sets along with extra track to test the waters but I not worried about TT taking off as Hornby have a minimum 5 year commitment alongside Gaugemaster & Peco who are doing their thing .Also Arthur should know that Hornby's choice is compatible with U.S & European TT models.
I was told guagemaster, dapol and heljan had all pulled out of uk tt
What US TT models you thinking of getting?
@@rollergrill Just heljan pulled out for no good reason, as far as I know only gaugemaster & peco are making tt 120 stuff , I heard nothing about dapol .
Thanks for commenting Jason. I think for folks who are either dabbling or building a second layout to their main one, the longevity issue is less of a factor for sure. I've ordered a set myself out of curiosity. If you were intending to pump in £3K-£5K it would be a different story of course and I'd certainly want another UK manufacturer onboard.
TT 1:120 scale has lots of possibility. 12mm track is standard gauge, 9mm track is 3'6", 6.5mm track is 2'6". So those that do Narrow gauge or even mainline 3'6". The future products has a huge number of prototypes that could be modeled. Small makers can take advantage of this new scale before the big guys ramp up.
It would definitely be good to see some other vendors supporting TT:120, driving innovation and keeping Hornby honest from a competitive perspective.
@@EuviRail Tillig is making TT120 track, so that is a big help. We don't need a Lionel track or equivalent to a third rail system taking over a market. It will be interesting to see if the big makers can tap into those 3D resin DIYers who can do designs the big guys can license. 3D to injection molding or Die casting?
Simon Kohler killed it when they went after Heljan, no other manufacturer is going to support TT-120.
@@ironfbody It does not matter who was actually at fault, Hornby will get the blame because of their track record.
Thanks for sharing. I was surprised Heljan backed down so quickly. I'm not pleased with Heljan right now for coming out with duplicate locos we already have enough of - Class 47s and 57s are a case in point. What about taking on the HSTs or Class 800s and give Hornby something different to think about!
As a 3mm modeller im interested in the new product and for the diesel era a great challenge. building a model of Acton Wells in this scale to test it out.
I began with TT in 1959 and only went to 00 when Triang stopped production. I have tried gauge o but its too big for my space, so I've ordered a TT set. With computer design its easy to modify scales and 3d printing will make a large choice available relatively easily.
Thanks Simon
TT is prefect for me in terms of the scale to space ratio. Also I like that I can get it direct. I was never a fan of local model shops.
As someone who is eyesight is not what it used to be, laying the 9 mm gauge track on my current 009 layout proved to be a pain - literally! If the slightly larger tt track proves to be easier to work with I could be tempted to give it a try in future.
how do i turn the music off?
No way to turn it off I'm afraid Steve. There're be no music in the follow-up which will look at the poll results and the feedback from the comments.
The new tt120 scale is a massive mistake on hornbys part. I really don't see it catching on personally if I was going to a smaller scale I would choose N gauge as it's better supported.
Thanks Gordon. I'm just collating all the feedback and it seems TT has traction with folks who aren't happy with N which is fair enough. There's no debate on the space front for sure - it's more a question of TT giving folks enough leeway and that's the attraction. TT still needs to deliver with quality if it is to be considered a runner at all.
What is Hornby going to do with its price will probably be really expensive and darn Hornby quality issues
hornbyb was OK when it was cheap chinese shit , now it is expensive chinese shit i have stopped buying it
The European TT is roughly 30% more so hornby tt120 is very competitively priced
@@muir8009 not really when both camps are doing their own version of TT but besides which when hornby own most of the european model railway production companies and knowing hornbys rob dog mentality you have to ask how long for
@@shakeyhandsshedmodelrailwa2494 it's more a comparison to what the German tt items cost relative to the UK tt120, and generally the German items in any scale are in that price difference, so size for size it's on par with the market pricing of the euro stuff, although hornby- arnold tt is phenomenally good quality, from the technical that is available about the UK 120 the arnold tt is in a whole different league.
Tbh, I think Hornby could've revisited S, it wouldn't have had two scales to compete with (00 and N) as 00 yep, but 0 is just too limited and too pricey: a reasonably priced S could give that 'mass' of 0, and still with space saving... maybe next time. Theres been so many try with S, none unfortunately staying the distance.
@@muir8009 german models have always been more expensive if you think the trains are expensive you should try building graupner R/C vehicles they sell a boat kit at an horrendous price and it isn't even a complete kit you have to buy deck fittings kits , motors , servos etc etc at additional horrendous expense
Im new to the Hobby and im very interested, for someone with limited space and eyesight, this seems perfect. Im looking forward to buying my 1st set and beginning my journey.
Thanks for commenting Andrew and welcome to the hobby. TT:120 is probably an ideal option for you and as it matures even more so.
Britain needs a scale with correct rail gauge, but this choice baffles me. There are so many old TT models around, surely the right choice was 3mm on 14mm track? Bring lots of old stuff on board, with a wheel change - eg a market for new chassis for old models, meaning a much wider range of models on day one.
Oh, and also: seriously concerned by Hornby's web site only policy. MAYBE for a short time while they iron out bugs, but if they think they can cut out hobby shops etc for good, that is unprincipled and, for me, is a reason to stop buying Hornby altogether- including OO.
Hi, thanks for commenting. I was expecting to see more comments in support of 3mm adoption given there is a community already in place. You make an interesting point re. taking a direct sales model initially - "to iron out the bugs". They need to trial the first models with some respected modelers who will give them a thorough shakedown before inflicting them on the general public. I hope they are doing this.
Personally, I'm intrigued enough to potentially buy one of the train sets whenever they're released and at least see how I feel about the scale with my own hands and eyes. It might be a nice compromise between OO and N, though I've always thought N was too smaller scale for myself. The having more space to do things with a layout is a big selling point for me.
Having said that, I'm far too invested with OO to wholesale switch scales and it would take many years/a decade (if it takes off) before you'd be able to at least even vaguely have the variety of locomotives/stock currently avaliable in OO.
Cheers
Thanks Paul. I'd echo your sentiments and I'll bet there will be plenty of established 00 modelers in the same boat.
As a 75 years old recently moved into a small 2 bedroom bungalow, TT ie the perfect solution for me. My eyesight and non nimble fingers found that N gauge was to fiddly and small and so reluctantly had to sell up. Having watched the Hornby's model world on TV I was thrilled to see the creation of TT and have ordered a set almost straight away. Meanwhile a baseboard is under construction and some track purchased (to give me a good idea of measurements etc.) The complaints by some don't realise the competion out there and the need to be the first in order to pick up the custom, I'm absolutely thrilled and eagerly await the delivery (summer) of my set.
Thanks for sharing Ian. My Eastern set is arriving next week so we'll see how that turns out.
I have been working on 00 for years but now moving to TT 120 show display. Fitting better in my van
The TT range is building out now and also available from Rails so your timing is good.
Does the Hornby track geometry match PECO and can you join them together?
I'm waiting for my pre-order so can't comment I'm afraid. In the meantime I would put the question into Hornby and see what they come back with.
I model OO9 for the space savings of N and secondhand availabilities of OO/HO that are scaled the same. Bachmann and Peco has increased their ranges for scale specific products in the last few years already. Hornby is just splintering the already niche space.
As a former TT3 guy I loved the scale but hated that it ran on 4ft gauge track, the front view was awful. I have similar views about the front end views on both N and 00. TT120 is a much finer match and thus appeals. I think given time this great new scale could be a 00 killer, but Hornby really need to get their act together and make their Webb site less clunky. TT120 is the way for me if I decide to do another layout in the loft rather than the G scale one in it at present. My Garden G line will continue to be fine for that scale. Long live TT120 and I look forwards to Bachmann and others getting in on the bandwagon, but please please please if you do, do not duplicate existing Hornby products or their new announced ones.
Thanks for commenting John and I thoroughly echo your last point for when the other players come onboard!
Hornby are hitting the market from both ends. They are targeting the entry level consumer (family / kids) with something that can be stored under the bed or in a plastic container for the family to use on the dining room table. On the other end, you have older folks who cannot easily make it up to the loft anymore, or have moved into apartments. N gauge is a bit fiddly for seniors. TT:120 offers the proper scaling too, so less effort for the same look. Hornby have been pricing up OO, probably less about funding and more about competitively placing OO. As for selling direct from Hornby, they can keep the pricing low without having to offer the 40-50% wholesale discounts. It also has the added benefit that any new customers they bring will be kept in the dark about other scales and other manufacturers. There are only so many Flying Scotsman and HSTs they can sell in OO. It will be interesting to see how Bachmann and others react in 2023.
Yeah, sounds like Keegan and William from the video. Hornby do tend to own the entry level so they will have a better ability to lock new entrants into their universe as you say. Over pricing their 00 scale will make their TT range look a lot more cost effective for sure. It will be interesting to see the competitors response for sure. Thanks for sharing.
Having moved to a smaller house many years ago and struggled to find space for my OO I can see the benefit in this scale. A lot of people are likely to find this scale ideal as homes are getting smaller. A scale between OO and N might be what many people have been looking for. A GWR set might tempt me.
Hi Paul, I would agree with you. I've always felt N scale was too much of a compromise. If Hornby can deliver good TT:120 models then it could be the answer for people who are space challenged and could even be the difference between someone taking up the hobby or not because they can now accommodate it. Thanks for commenting.
Couldn't agree more. I csn't see new houses getting any bigger, any time soon.
Interesting the clip concentrates on existing modellers, when the launch itself had an eye to developing a market to take the hobby into the future.
You've also got to suspect that if everything in 00 was rosy, Hornby wouldn't have gone to such lengths in the first place.
I'm coming up to retirement age and the last Train set I built was around 20 years ago for my kids, OO with Thomas and Percy etc.
The spare room I used is now my office and will be used once again for the new Train set but this time in TT120. I thought about N gauge and really wanted to go that way but always in the back of my mind thinking it was too small. I have pre ordered several Hornby TT items and will be buying the Peco track to suit once the Hornby items arrive.
In my eyes this is a perfect scale. Reading the comments on here it also seems that most other people are thinking the same and they are the Customer. Also with the Hornby Bluetooth control system it seems Hornby have a new vision in comparison to the others?
Maybe they should put Peco track in the Sets and concentrate on the actual models?👍😎
Thanks for that and best of luck with your new TT layout. I don't think too many people would complain if Hornby followed your suggestion!
I am someone for whom the scale/gauge discrepancies of both 00 and N (and TT3) are unacceptable. I dabble with 2mm finescale, but that (like 3mm) requires too much do-it-yourself to suit me - plus, it is really too small. All models are compromises; TT120 looks to me lie a very attractive compromise, but it needs a big enough range: no realistic model railway can be populated only by the biggest passenger express locomotives.
As a sign of Hornby's willingness to engage, I e-mailed Simon Kohler this morning with some thoughts about the direction I thought TT120 should take: he responded within the hour - how does he find the time? These are early days; I look forward to the further releases from Hornby in the coming months - whether they entirely meet my personal preferences or not.
One scale that I'm actually surprised never was used. Or took hold if it was would be 1/100. To me it seems as though that would have been a very logical "metric" scale size.
3mm is effectively 1/100 and I agree with you in terms of it's relatively low level of traction. I suspect the level of European TT:120 adoption was one of the deciding factors and we can only speculate on the others. The 3mm community are effectively in no mans land now as existing 3mm providers will look to follow the money.
I’ve wanted this for years - as I head towards state pension age I’ll be taking a close look. I’d like to see a BR diesel multiple unit available. That would really help keeping it all cosy and realistic in the smaller space.
100%. Thanks for commenting.
As some one who was looking at getting in to modelling, i was initially looking at 00 gauge, now that tt120 has come out, i am thinking i could have quite a bit more in the amount of space i will have available to me. The only thing is product range is limited at the moment so i will probably sit back and see what happens. N gauge is another option but for me its a little to small, i am a little clumsy and dont want something so small that i cant see a lot of detail. I certainly dont wish to offended anyone who has invested into 00 or N gauge but i do wonder why people are so triggered by the introduction of another gauge, surely there is room for all three, had i a room i could take over then 00 would be my choice as i dont have a spare room then tt120 is looking more attractive to me and there must be lots of people in my position who want to get into this but dont have room and who dont want N gauge as its just too small.
Thanks for sharing. I can see a lot of people in the same boat as yourself. TT120 could be a sweet spot for a lot of modelers.
I think TT (1:120) is a great scale. Finally, we have a scale and gauge that match for British railway modelling. This means we can use products from overseas manufacturers (whether buildings, people, rolling stock or whatever) on a British layout without them looking too small. I wonder if there might be a long game for Hornby to introduce more TT in its other - continental - brands. It's a scale that always remained moderately popular in Germany (particularly the former DDR), so there is market for them there. Though it's still niche compared to HO.
3mm scale has - in my view - always been a very niche scale, used by people who had a TT train set in the 1960s, and to me it made little sense. For 3mm, so much has to be scratch built, so why not build it to the "correct" scale? EM/P4 is similarly niche to 3mm, but at least is correcting the OO compromise. I've never modelled British outline, as I couldn't live with the narrow gauge, and regauging all rolling stock is not something I'd want to get into: it is easier (and for a non-xenophobic Englishman really interesting) to model European prototypes.
I wonder what all the critics of TT120 would have said if Hornby had instead decided to introduce EM gauged versions of its 1:76 offerings?
But it does need more than Hornby and Peco on board, and Hornby need to sell it through model shops.
In the past, when there were simply more model shops, many sold OO, HO, N alongside other scales for e.g. military modelling. Even Beatties sold HO, OO and N. It wasn't stocking three scales/gauges that led to the closure of so many model shops in the 90s and 00s. It was that there were fewer people doing railway modelling, and particularly fewer young people starting the hobby.
Thanks Andrew. I'm currently consolidating the feedback and the lack of a second manufacturer and retail support are coming though as genuine concerns. Having a 2nd manufacturer also allows the Hornby factor to be taken out to a large extent which is another major negative that I'm seeing. More anon.
As a 3mm modeller most of my life (I am nearly 70), I just ask one question - why? 3mm scale already exists so why did Peco and Hornby decide on another scale and not support the 3mm community which is already there? Total insanity in my humble opinion.
I've been asking the same question. I guess the main argument has been alignment with the large range of European TT models. 3mm would have had an existing base of consumers and suppliers in the UK. To be honest, I only got visibility to the scope of the 3mm world when researching for this video. I fear I'm not alone which is why it isn't getting the level of support here I thought it might do. Thanks for commenting.
Went to see Hornby's TT:120 display at the Gaydon model show today.
Looks great! It's just that bit bigger than N but clearly significantly smaller than OO. Early sanple coaches and wagons were very good, with the close coupling looking really nice on the coaches. Correct gauge for scale is a nice side-benefit, too.
I prefer the Peco track, but will certainly leave my pre-orders active with Hornby.
The OO and N folks may not fancy it, but nothing here affects them as those scales will rumble on for many years yet. This is new and won't be everyone's cup of tea; that's quite OK!
For me, it blows N into the weeds, but don't see it affecting OO at all.
I was delighted to see that the coaches had close coupling mechanisms, something that is not universal amongst British models in 00 and N scales but taken for granted from European manufacturers. Now, if they can sort the counterbalance error on the steam loco wheels...
@@marcosborne6540 I gather from the Hornby staff I met at Gaydon that these couplings are the international standard for TT:120. I guess the Chinese factories are set up to use them, and for once a UK company had the sense to adopt the international standard, not come up with some half-arsed version of its own!
The counterbalance issue on the wheels was a human error in the tooling phase, apparently. Was assured someone has been shot as an example to the CAD department, and it will be put right! I'd quite like one of the "wrong" ones as a quirky collector's item - would be interesting to see how many people noticed.
This does look promising. I was never going to N, but this scale does open up an interesting opportunity for a compact layout to build over the winter when my garden O gauge isn't so appealing.
@@chairmakerPete re the couplings, yes I recognised them as the standard used on European stock and was glad to see they’d adopted it. Great news that they’d understood the counterbalance issue and I appreciated that these were not full production models on show. The affirmation that this will be addressed should quieten various detractors comments.
The European stock by the likes of Tillig etc. is rather good. I model N gauge European out of preference but appreciate good British modelling. It’s fantastic to see Hornby adopting good scale standards and innovations in this range.
Go for it. Cross to the dark side and enjoy 😄😄😄
Thanks for sharing that and good to hear the models looked the business in reality.
I feel that my concerns have already been said by other commenters and don’t need repeating: lack of widespread scale support, the availability of N gauge, current economic pressure on households, lack of involvement with our retailers. I have been a OO gauge modeller all my life and see no reason why I should change. Hornby, you have set yourselves up for a big fall; it will be a sad day should your name be added to other names consigned to history. Alan 10:58
I'll be checking out the Eastern set in the New Year. Going it alone on a new scale like this is a massive endeavor and a massive risk. I hope for their sakes they've done their homework. Many Thanks for commenting.
Looks more appealing than N guage. I can defiently see this scale having fans. Selling directly at first may seem like they are locking out retailers but I think it is more about balancing stock levels vs investment, it's a reasonable step to protect the company andf guage demand over time. Over time they may exoand to retailers. it also avoid confusion for the huge customer base for existing product and retailers dont need to reduce shelve space for existing product.
Hi Freya, thanks for commenting. Your point did come out in the follow up video based from others who had mentioned it like yourself. There definitely seems to be interest in UK TT models being sold in other geographies and of course UK modelers can take in European and North American TT models.
I can see the benefits for Hornby if it succeeds - higher margins due to a direct sales model and little to no competition. I'm less clear on the benefit to the consumer unless they insist on buying Hornby and are happy to accept a very limited range of models compared to both 00 and N. It will be interesting to see if the proposed new models appear when promised since it looks to be an ambitious ramping up of the range.
I would have the same thoughts. The first proof is due in Dec.
I don't get why Arthur is so mad. Hornby is only adding a new scale to their range of scales, I never heared them say it is going to replace 3mm. It is all in Arthurs head ...
Yep, Arthur needs to get over it and move on as TT:120 is with us now.
I use HO scale, but I want to set up a small Z or N or TT scale loop to portray a "garden railway" behind someone's house.
Cool. Nice excuse to get another scale on the layout. Thanks for sharing.
Hopefully history will not repeat itself with Hornby's TT-120 venture. Tri-ang Railways' 1957 TT-3 introduction came with great fanfare but was all but dead as an R-T-R line within a decade.
I guess they've had TT:120 based traction (pun intended) with their Arnold range and that's been around for a while. The enthusiasm is there for it based on the comments on this stream but there's still a ways to go however for TT to secure itself a long term future in the UK. There's no guarantee that Hornby don't mess it up by their own actions.
Great video with some interesting points, for me TT120 is the way to go due to space constraints and ageing eyes, I have jumped on and have placed a preorder as i can see that this will be a long time project and over time there will be more items available whether its from Hornby or other manufacturers. 3D printing is also a viable option for buildings/people etc and this is something i have ventured into this year so the prospects are quite exciting.Working in retail my whole adult life i can understand the frustration of the shop owner but a new platform needs to be started somewhere and a lot of established retailers would probably turn it down if Hornbys rep walked through the door to offer this new scale saying that they are already invested in the 2 current main gauges and they have a healthy client base for both so going the online only route does make sense and it puts Hornby in direct contact with their buyers and create a new community that can help shape the future of the scale, personally i hope it is a success for both Hornby and the people that take it up, only time will tell.
Thanks Aaron. There appears to a definite grouping of people like yourself for whom TT would appear to be an optimal compromise. I do hope the retail channel and alternative manufacturer issues get addressed within the next 12 months to help give the service and security I think we'd all like to see. It's looking like a 3D printer is becoming the next essential tool for modelers!
From a commercial point of view I can't see this significantly expanding the market. We are likely to end up in a situation where more choices are chasing much the same number of customers as before. This can only bring a significant increase in Hornby's costs without a significant increase in turnover. I hope I'm wrong, but they've been here before (when they called themselves Tri-ang) and it didn't last very long.
Thanks Roger. This something I have been concerned about as well.
I am planning to start my first track this year and upto now I was planning to start in N-scale. But the TT120 gave me food for thought. It is more detailed, the figurines are more detailed only the lack of trains and accesoires for a while let me think for a bit more ....
From little acorns, mighty oaks grow. More than 50 years ago, I started an N scale venture. The choice of locos and rolling stock was very limited. Graham Farish had a range of two locos, a GWR pannier tank and Holden tank engines. The Hornby range looks quite an interesting prospect for the newcomer. Pricing seems OK. Would I consider a change? Perhaps, but I would not touch any Hornby items with a barge pole, so long as a person named Simon is in charge of the company.
Thanks for your comments Timothy. I can see you are agreeing with Arthur's assessment of a certain person! As per other comments on here, it's a real shame that some of Hornby's recent actions have inspired such a sour taste for so many.
Something went wrong with your vid, none of the audio from your guests could be heard even on full volume. I could only hear background music
Hi Robert, I just checked the video again and it was playing back ok. Now some people have complained that the music was too loud in the mix. If I play it back on my TV or PC it's fine (both with good speakers mind you). If you played it back on a phone or tablet without headphones then I think you could potentially have an issue, so I need to test it on these before loading my next vid. Thanks for flagging.
I think this is a balanced and well thought out analysis - the only minor thing I would add is the the performance of Japanese N scale models is often vastly superior to Western offerings. Kato etc make superb runners, and even the very cheap Tomytec locos are well designed and elegant, and run smoothly on old club layouts that brand new Western locos stutter and stall on. So the point you make about running performance is very good, it's an important factor.
Yeah, I've heard good things about the Kato models alright. 00 gauge has some superb performing models now so that's what I'll be comparing to. Thanks for sharing.
Here in the states I haven't really started collecting domestic models because I have such a wide range of interests, including UK railways. I am also always torn between HO and N scale trains, HO offers more variety but N scale fits within the limited space I have. I would go all in with TT120 if Hornby USA started producing North American prototypes, then I could collect both my favorite UK and US models and they would be able to operate side by side without the differences you get with HO/OO and N scale and it would fit within the space I have.
Many thanks for your comments. This correlates with other comments I have seen on this topic so I hope you get the opportunity to get hold of these models on your side of the Atlantic in the not too distant future.
Great commentary and observations as always unbiased and fair. As for me I will stick to 00 and would N gauge as an alternative if I wanted to change. Even if it was the best thing I still would as with the opinion of others not because of Hornby and what they are doing to the industry and the retailers and I so hope that all the other Manufacturers especially with the great models that have come out this year (not from Hornby) will eventually put Hornby firmly back in its box and that the new scale becomes a harsh lesson to Hornby on how not to do business. We will loose our independent retailers and the choices and value they bring which I am sure no of us want to happen. Tim
Thanks Tim. There can be no doubt that Hornby feels the walls closing in for 00 gauge hence breaking into TT looks attractive to them.
They certainly take some teaching.
I’ve only been back to the hobby for about 5 years. I’m pretty astonished at what Hornby dishes out to its retailers, also it’s customers and the attitude to it’s competitors.
I’ve seen them swerve left to Steam Punk, right to Harry Potter. Attempt to print money with Coca Cola while simultaneously gifting Thomas The Tank Engine to their competitor. Saying retailers shouldn’t manufacture, while manufacturing and retailing???
The “kidz” they employ on their overly corporate looking exhibition stand are about as far away from modelling as you could get.
The PR for TT120 was ridiculous. “People in starter homes”. “ bringing in younger modellers “. What?
What sub 25 year old is buying a house? And how likely is he to be building physical models? I’ve never heard such patronising rubbish.
My Grandad lived all his life in a terraced house in B’ham. He comfortably ran a boarded OO gauge layout.
I saw a fair amount of OO shunting layouts at Warley and Milton Keynes. What house won’t they fit in?
I model in 'OO12' - 3 foot narrow gauge, using 12 mm gauge Peco track. On one hand (provided I can see inside the loco body before buying) the class O8 'Gronk' could be useful - an outside framed, outside crank 0-6-0 mechanism has a lot of conversion potential for classic narrow gauge steam. But as for changing from OO, no thanks, I'll stick with the scale I have, due to the reasonably ready availability of parts I can't make for myself. My local rtr train shop, having fallen out with Hornby, will not be stocking Peco track - too little demand. OK - so Hornby wish to sell direct from the factory, undercutting local shops? That's their prerogative. BUT they don't sell all the materials, paints, wood, solder etc on which I depend, and which even a TT120 modeller will need - and if in the process they drive real local model shops out of business, we're sunk.
The old Triang TT (1/100th or 3 mm per foot) was at the time an essential compromise - the age old problem of getting the then available smallest motors into British outline models. Our loading gauge is smaller than that of either European or American railways; we've always had to compromise between exact scale and practicality. Now they can use the same scale as the rest of the world do - and hope that overseas sales will help support their ideas. We need to wait and see - and wish them well.
Good points. Thanks John
I wish we could have TT120 in Australia! I currently use a Noch preformed layout call Heidelberg- which can also be used with TT scale. I use both H0 ( Australian) and British 00 scale but would be happy to settle on TT is Hornby released some of their old Lima Australian models in TT scale!
Cheers
Thanks for that Ken. Hopefully when Hornby start using retail channels you'll get to see these models down under.
When I first started railway modelling back in the late 1950s/early 1960s Tai-ang produced both OO and TT models, with the latter having a more interesting range of locos and rolling stock. I opted for OO as there were more model buildings etc available for OO than TT which always seemed to me to be something of a dead end, even though there was some support for the scale in the former East Germany (Piko) with models representing most of the nations behind the former Iron Curtain . That seemed to fade away after German reunificarion when Piko started to produce higher quality models but only in HO scale. I doubt if many serious modellers with change to this new TT scale, leaving it to the toy train market, with those children who become really interested in building a model railway moving on to a 'grown up' scale like OO or HO as adults.
As an O gauge kit builder but with insufficient room for a 7mm layout, I like TT120 as it doesn't have the glaring mismatch between track and loco body scales that OO has. For a small layout, TT120 sounds ideal.
Given their fairly massive investment in TT120 tooling, I can understand why Hornby have sensibly both maximised their income by direct selling as well as encouraged discounted sales via the TT120 club. With Dapol, Heljan and Bachmann all competing on the 00 side, it makes sense to diversify and encourage those who have never been previously involved in model railways to look at models designed for the smaller house.
I'm sold on it. already ordered some items
Having read most comments my impression is that there are a lot more people here taking this initiative positively then the video with just a few people suggests.
If there is a risk (there is, I believe) that is in general for model railway markets, as kids have many other modern hobbies to chose from nowadays.
My follow up video to this parsed all of the comments and grouped them in terms of their sentiment and combined that with the viewer poll. I wouldn't say there was a standout winner and unfortunately there was a level of negativity towards Hornby that scewed the negative sentiment. There were a lot of positive comments for sure and more since I cut the follow up video.
My father bought me a triang tt gauge train set. I played with it and the coupling rod screws fell out and were lost on the floor immediately.
He went back to the shoip and they chasnged the locomotive. A few weeks later the plastic centre wheel split. It was on 060 tank and two carriages.
Today Triang TT gauge is history.
Hornby Dublo tried two rail. The track was flimsy unlike Hornby Dublo 3 rail and nobody understood the wiring for points. Meccano failed and the Hornby brand was sold to line Bros.
Triang Trains became Triang Hornby.That was in 1964. Lines Bros failed in 1972 because of a new code 100 track and tender drive.
The lesson here is that if the quality is poor Hornby TT120 will go the way of Triang TT.
Thanks for sharing John. As you say, all bets are off if the quality is poor.
TT120. For people like me. I had as a child a 6' × 4' board. Now as I am older and in a small flat this new range is very appealing. It is something I set up on my tabletop. I am not a modeler. But would to play with my grandkids. Then when finished pack it away.
Thanks for your comments Steven and I think a key point is that for the usage you are looking for, whether TT succeeds or not in the long term isn't really relevant. Will it do what you need it to do for the next few years and is it reasonably priced is what's important. A lot of heavily invested modelers including myself tend to be driven by the long haul which is understandable if that's your end of the market.
I have yet to build a layout and live in a flat. Bachmann next quarter announcements are due, If there’s more support in addition to Hornby then I’m all in favour of it and I’ll preorder everything. Otherwise I’m going to divert to N.
Thanks for sharing Matt. Sounds like a prudent strategy to me. Let's see what comes from Bachmann.
The economics of introducing TT120 don’t make any sense in my view. It saddles Hornby with higher costs - these being unlikely to be fully covered by increased sales due to buyers switching out of OO. Also those modelling in OO have already seen an impact via lower investment. As for the poor old retailers…. As an N scale modeller I really hope Dapol, Farish et al don’t follow Hornbys lead. Hornby have missed a real trick here. I would have loved them to (re)enter the N gauge sector or even 3mm, maybe coming up with a new easier to lay track system a la Kato to address the issue that n is too fiddly.
Thanks for your comments. Simon was quite strident in the introductory video regarding the ongoing 00 investment. I have to say I'm struggling with this as well. There's both a major R&D effort - even if the CAD system can do 80-90% of the work in re-scaling but all the tooling is brand new and that won't be cheap for the number of models they show on the website so something has to be giving , they've borrowed to make this happen or they've been seriously ripping us off on the 00 pricing for a number of years now!
The Sony comment hits the nail, I see it as Hornby internet only as cost to the model world. Both Bachmann have knocked retailers on the head for discounting or producing models which they are frightened off! As for Arthur his gauge is out of scale, die hard stick in the mud was Hornby going to sell to him anyway? Just hope Hornby DO NOT OVER PRICE THEMSELVES to make this scale work, also with PECO making TT track are they producing this for Hornby or is it the clumsy Hornby scaled down track?
Thanks Vinny. The pricing concerns me alright as does the Hornby track. We shall see .....
I am a 3mn TT modeller but I do own and run quite a few continental TT locos and stock on my TT layout, the new range from Hornby,hell yes about time,I have pre ordered quite a few items and can't wait for them to be released. As for my 3mm layout and large collection of stock,that's going no where ,the 2 can happily live side by side on my layout.
I did briefly model in 3mm scale but gave up due everything being in kits.I think Hornby have made a wise decision in adopting the continental TT scale of 1/120.This will allow some use of the the European ranges of TT scale. If I were starting a fresh now I would consider TT scale.You have more space compared to 00 and more detail compared to N gauge.
Thanks Garry. This is very much a common theme among responses.
Good video analysis. Seems a vanity project that's doomed before it starts. It will detract investment in keeping Hornby's own 00 product line refreshed with higher spec models in the future leaving the door wide open for Accurascale, Bachmann and Heljan, Betamax seems a good analogy. Hornby are going to hurt their own business and leave the door wide open for competitive 00 products. N is too well established, Hornby have missed the boat. Too much fragmentation. HO track with 00 scale models is something we've all got used to for the past 60 years. Personally I'm heavily invested in 00 so not going to risk investing in TT due to the likely obsolescence within a short time frame. Hornby perhaps irrationally feel at war with some of their own biggest retailers who do their own competitive commissions from time to time, but killing the goose that lays the golden egg comes to mind. Hope it doesn't bank rust Hornby. The company may fail but the brand name will never die and somebody may snap it up for a song if the current company fails, so there will always be a Hornby even if ultimately owned by bachmann's parent or Accurascale.
Thanks for that. Yeah, it wouldn't encourage you to invest in Hornby 00 models goings forward. I always feel it's not good when a manufacturer has an unhealthy relationship with retailers. If you don't look after them, those retailers will go elsewhere and will effectively be fueling your competition. It will be interesting to see how this all develops. As I mentioned in the video, I hope Hornby are prudent enough to reverse on certain decisions if that is required rather than push through regardless to avoid losing face and ultimately paying a heavy price financially.
TT failed years ago, it is really a clear choice of N if you have limited space or OO if you have larger space in mot situations. With housing these days being smaller, N is more likely for inside unless you have an outside purpose built shed, but again gardens are generally smaller now. TT120 is an interesting concept but I don't see it gaining a real foothold.
I'm not hopeful about the model fidelity. The wheel flanges look like old N gauge from the 80s and am I the only one to notice the crank pins on the A4 wheels are on the same quarter of the wheel as the counter weights.... basic mistake there Hornby. Also the running looks poor with it lurching and the loco seems to "drop" into the point as it passes. If this is what they are presenting to get interest from people then they aren't doing very well!
That said I think it may be a really good compromise in scale, and I believe its already popular in Europe, so does make sense!
Thanks for commenting John. I didn't want to bring this up in the video as I was cutting Hornby some slack in terms of it being a prototype. However, your valid observations are a source of concern and will be something to check when we see the first product units. As I've said in other response on here, their first TT:!20 models need to be good models and they shouldn't cut any fundamental corners to get them out.
@@EuviRail agree, they need to be top notch, if not its not going to fly!!
This is interesting❤, but my eyesight, cannot go T scale or N😢
As a long time O Gauge collector and modeller looking at a future downsizing of hobby space, the TT120 range offers a lot of possibilities. I haven’t operated small gauge since HD 3-rail in the 1950’s and 60’s, so have no vested interest in OO, or N Gauge. Plus living in Canada makes on line shopping particularly appealing.
Thanks for sharing that. There's definitely a cohort of people in similar circumstances who see TT:120 as an attractive (or possibly only) option for them to either re-enter or stay in the hobby. If Hornby are shipping direct to Canada then that's a plus too.
Hornby has current experience with TT120 and N via Arnold who they own. The range on their website of German outline is small though and TT120 has only ever been popular in central Europe.
My own view is Hornby has long been conscious that they only make one scale themselves so bought into Ho via Rivarossi and Jouef.
Other brands are multiscale:
Marklin-Trix (Z, N, Ho, 1)
Dapol (N, OO, O)
Piko (N, TT120, Ho, G)
Bachmann (N, Ho, OO)
Roco-Fleischmann (N, TT120, Ho)
Brawa (N, Ho)
Heljan (Ho, OO, O)
Rapido UK N, Ho
Tillig (TT120, Ho)
Thanks for sharing that breakdown.
Not one Southern model in the whole range. Way back I was very dissatisfied with British OO scale models railways running HO track, so for the last 30 or more years I have been building my own 18.83 mm gauge correct scale track to go with British OO scale models. If only British model railway manufactures had switched to HO scale when the smaller mechanism became available, it would have made my modelling a lot easier. So why introduce yet another model railway scale, when all Hornby had to do was to introduce an HO range of British rolling stock for modellers to run on their existing 16.5 mm HO track.
Thanks for that. I had noticed the point regarding Southern models. That does seem a gap. Yeah, it's surprising we've ended up where we are. I can remember when Lima did HO models for all of their UK and Irish models and I guess they bowed to the pressure at the time for UK 00. It didn't really help them in the end though. We can only speculate as to Hornby's rationale. I just hope their decision making is based on some sound rationale....
I think I will try it out. I find OO layouts too big to fit the modern home. N gauge is too small as I am in my 60’s and my eye sight is not as good. Even with a new prescription as the video presenter sarcastically suggested.
Hi Don, I think TT:120 is actually a very good compromise scale between N and 00. I've liked the space saving of N but have never been comfortable with it otherwise. My TT concerns are in other aspects and the poll results would appear to bear that out for others as well. The comment about William was about the rose tint on his glasses that wasn't allowing him to see some of the potential pitfalls of TT:120 given we're talking about something that no one outside Hornby and their close associates would have had a chance to put through it's paces. I don't want to dampen the enthusiasm, which there seems to be plenty of, but model manufacturers can promise a lot and not always deliver. While I'm not moving to TT:120 myself, I will be testing it, and I would want that anyone adopting it, would get the best experience possible and get good value for their money. We're all in this together regardless of scale. Thank you for your comments.
Thanks for the excellent reply.
I think a big problem for TT120 will be the fact that there is no cheap 2nd hand market , everything you need -loco's rolling stock, track and buildings will need to be bought brand new for full RRP, yeah good luck with that at hornby prices , if i want to model Midland region in mid sixties then how long do i have to wait for a royal scot to become available?, how long for a class 25? , i think TT120 is a tough sell and hornby are further limiting reach of the range by not selling via retailers , TT120 is the modern version of hornby's live steam ....
A few folks making the same point re. the lack of 2nd hand models which is an obstacle for any new scale, and building a full new range is going to time which is why more manufacturers are needed to instill buyer confidence and get them to hang in there. It's hard to go it alone (per live steam!) Thanks for commenting.
I think the reason they went for that scale of TT because it's compatiable with TT used elsewhere in Europe and North America. Makes no difference to me, sticking with OO as I have too much now to change, lol.
Thanks Andrew - a lot of us in the same boat.
Its fun that now UK prototypes will be able to sit side by side with 1945 HP products and be the same scale.
I’m afraid “Arthur’s” comments are rather childish. a public company like Hornby does not need to take into account every modeler’s opinion. He’s criticizing the decision to go 2.5 mm without knowing the decision making process behind it.
The background music is making it difficult to hear the comments,
Background music blurs the commentary.