I ran a second hand model train shop in Central London for 21 years and if I had a quid for every customer who said "I wish Hornby would produce TT gauge" I would be a very rich man. But saying this and actually buying the stuff when produced is another matter as seems to be the case. Hornby when attending exhibitions probably had the same comments from customers and believed it. But also the prices, I know I am a little out of touch now but the cost of one wagon is crazy, surely that must put people off. By the way Sam love your well presented videos, very clear, well done.
I was "Wheels of Steel" situated in Grays Antique Market just off Oxford Street and 1 minutes walk from Bond Street tube station. I was there for 21 years selling all makes and gauges of secondhand model trains. Could do no wrong, non stop buying and selling, a gold mine while it lasted. Then the last few years it just dwindled with old customers dying off, business guys not being sent to London (they would pop in to me on their way home and spend a few quid). Advertised regularly in Railway Modeller, etc., but just died off. Was there till end of 2016. Don't think there is a model shop now in Central London.
trouble is they probably lost the license in the first place because they wouldn't update the models. One thing I have heard is that the reason they keep changing Thomas models brands (Take and Play etc) was to keep the faces looking more like the new style. Hornby never really changed the Thomas models up until the last release where Thomas got his footplate painted. So if Hornby acquired the TT license for Thomas, they would have to make the models essentially exclusive for Thomas characters or have some bizarre models as "industrial tank engine of obscure origin". And Bachman have N Scale Thomas anyway.
@@rodimussupreme2329 They don’t need a license for TT, it’s nothing exclusive to Hornby, the question is one of if it’d sell well, HO/OO and N are both big markets, G not so much, but they still sell G scale Thomas stuff, so it must sell well, with TT only recently making a comeback Bachmann would need to develop all new toolings, not to mention it might not be what people want, most Thomas modellers I’ve seen model OO/HO, N, G or O, all markets which have had T&F ready-to-run models for donkey’s years (OO/HO by Hornby and Bachmann, N by Bachmann and Tomix, O by Lionel, and G by Bachmann), so would they want to make the move to TT?
As person from Germany i will kindly mention that TT is on the go especially in eastern Germany ( and eastern Europe also). Hornby is promoting their TT program in German Internet shops.
@@jonathanwebb8307Indeed. I ended up practically having to apologise for being English because of the looks I got regarding Hornby whenever I took my nephews to model shops in Hamburg. From as soon as they could crawl (2004ish) and every one of the following two decades. Verdammte Hornby!
I am really impressed with the TT120 locomotives and rollingstock that I have so far. It's a great scale to work in. Looking forward to what Hornby announce in April.
I have come into model railways because of TT120, buying the Easterner set in October 2022. The size is right and I am happy to wait as the range develops. I have the Duchess class and HST on pre-order . I have spent hundreds of pounds on base boards, NCE Powercab DCC controller, track, buildings, signals, scenery. I can run a loco and five/six coaches in a simialr length Running a loco and three coaches in 00 and have a longer run of track. if Hornby doesn't keep the British models going, I will buy european models and run a continental model railway. As someone new to the hobby, I have been amazed at how may people are so anti-TT120. what does it matter to them?? I would not expect many, if any one who invested lots of money in N or OO to swap over to what is untried scale launch. I have other hobbies and I want a low key model railway to enjoy. A few locos that I like, running at the same time. steam and diesel together. with UA-cam videos bemoaning the death of model railwaying, patience and support for a new endeavour is what is needed. In my humble opinion (but then, I am only a 50 something, looking start a pleasurable hobby).
I suspect that few people are 'anti TT:120', rather you are correct that few people wants to start from scratch in a new scale, whether TT:120 can sustain itself on new entrants to the hobby is the crux of the matter.
The problem is, that we can't all afford "hundreds of pounds" for our hobby? Especially with the added cost of DCC? A "basic" set is what most children want?
I wonder if this was an idea of Simon Kohler’s which he managed to persuade Hornby management to invest in? Now he and Montana have left, the PlayTrains range has since been dropped. Will TT:120 go the same way, despite the investment by both Hornby and those who bought it?
I just happened to think of something. You currently have a VERY unique opportunity here. As TT:120 is still in its infancy, you have a chance to collect EVERY MODEL produced in this scale and be able to also REVIEW every TT:120 scale model. With as much of a following as your channel has, it could help to boost the exposure this scale gets and perhaps even HELP Hornby in this venture!
Good point. But only possible from Hornby. It would be very difficult and expensive to track down and purchase all the HP products TT 120 range they made from about 1946 to 1964, to give just one other maker of TT120.
Hi Sam. It’s not uncommon for you to take some heat for your views, and usually I find I tend to agree. However here, I hope you don’t mind, but some of the analysis is questionable. From your own survey 6% of your viewers are brand new to the hobby because of TT120. Is there anything you can think of in the last 25 years that has INCREASED the hobby base in that way? In addition, at the start there wa as huge fuss over TT120 cannibalising sales of 00. But Hornby felt that unlikely, and only 2% have switched. Further the Peco and Hornby wagons are not actually the same - very similar I grant you, but a different length of wheelbase entirely. The aim of TT120 needs to be seen in its broadest perspective - to grow the hobby. It is not so much about establishing another new scale, nor about tearing down the hybrid of British 00 or even N. It is about widening the hobby for new blood. It is doing that. Even the move to retailers - they were hammered at the start for not doing that. And now they are criticised for doing it? Whereas they maintained that it was unsuitable to bring to retailers and expect them to invest in an unproven scale, so Hornby did that part. Now that they can show it sells, retailers are happier to take a selection. It’s NOT meant to take over the hobby, or replace OO. It is meant to grow the hobby. Having said all that - thanks for continuing to cover it. Also I agree the models themselves are largely very good. And I also agree that I’d love it if they could have somehow had a mega launch of a dozen locos and stock!
@gregmacdonald927 - well said! I agree with everything you've put there! Sam is concentrating on the 88% of respondents that aren't interested in TT:120 while ignoring the 11% that are actually modelling in the scale - 11% is a much higher than I would have expected. Alao, another thing about Sam's criticism of opening up TT:120 to retailers is that this was always in Hornby's plans - there is a early TT Talk video where Simon Kohler actually states that once the scale is established then Hornby would begin to sell TT:120 via retailers.
to be honest, n guage seems more appealing to me than tt120. today i went to a model exhibition and there was not 1 tt120 layout and there were at least 5 n guage.
TT is too new is the problem, you need to be part of that early adopter crowd to get into it, in time (assuming it doesn't flop) it should be fine. That said, looking at a train show I was planning on taking my kid to... until the little booger said he didn't want to go... there are 3 O layouts, 2 G, and 1 N, On30, Z, S and a Lego setup, now I know HO scale isn't dead but that's kind of what I'm into so for it to not have a layout kind of bums me out, although the reality is the clubs that usually do the HO setups have the same setups for every train show in the area so I've already seen them.
Gresley Pacifics and Mk1 coaches, and/or an 08 with tank wagons, really don't excite the imagination - and, in any case, Hornby's TT120 track is far too sharply curved. The A4 and two coaches remind me of the early Hornby-Dublo 3-rail system...
@B tt is the underloved child of the train model world - during it's inception it was only really used in GB and the Warsaw Pact countries thanks to manufacturers like Tillig. Before the Hornby relaunch last year the scale was only really alive in Russia and Eastern Germany.
The Hornby TT layout at Model Rail Scotland today had a Scotsman and a Valenta HST. The sound fitted Valenta HST sounded superb. I was really impressed. It would be a shame if TT failed.
If they had provided a cheaper way into n scale, even if it meant a reduction in detail as with railroad, I would have shaken their collective hand off for it.
That would have been interesting! I wonder/assume if they picked TT because it wasn't already being tapped by their competition here in the UK though, Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@ianhudson2193 funny you say that: thats exactly why märklin never entered the N market and made Z instead. They didn't want to become just another manufacturer of N. And what would they make in N? More of the same naff? N in Britain is always on the periphery, realistically there's not much room there. A scale Hornby could possibly have looked at could've been S. Not so space consuming as 0. More mass and feel than 00: that more for your money feel. And if they'd made it as a process of larger 00 with its railway layout connotations, rather than a small 0 with its hyper detailed, expensive, and more adult enthusiast connotations
I tried N yonks back. Great if the scenery through which trains run floats your boat and OK for modern outline, but tbh, N gauge steam outline has never impressed me.
That's it, they seem to still think it's the 70's. It doesn't matter so much that they're from just one manufacturer, but you need a decent range so you can build a representative collection to run a layout with. Having an just express loco and a shunter doesn't cut it. That's a train set, not a model railway.
A great example is 009, there are several manufacturers making great narrow gauge models, which are many times sold out within weeks or even before launch.
same as Hornby's TT range, then, that's one reason for the delays in more locos, the fact that demand exceeded production and they had to use some of the pre booked slots to make more of the original range.@@darreno9874
I've moved to TT 120 and am really pleased as the reduction in space required has transformed what I can now achieve with my new layout. Now I no longer have to climb under baseboards which is great at 78 years old. Also TT 120 is very popular here on the continent, a fact or I think you omitted from your review. The locos, rolling stock and trackwork available are superb..e.g. the Roco electric turntable and items such as the ICE, although this latter item has been blown away in my view with the delivery in the past few days of the truly magnificent Hornby TT 125 in Intercity livery. I should also add that Hornby TT 120 locos and rolling stock prices compare favourably with Continental counterparts.
Good topic. I don’t think this is as big a gamble as it may seem. Hornby owns Arnold, and I think that if things were to go south for Hornby, they can get Arnold to continue production in TT 120. I think the key here is the scale. I have recently purchased a few of Arnold’s container wagons in TT scale, and they match perfectly with my Hornby TT. Now that Roco and Piko are starting to produce TT120, along side established companies like Tillig, this scale will grow. Just think, it will now be possible to run British locomotives and rolling stock along side those from Europe. Looking forward to one day being able to run my model train from Beijing to London. Cheers!
I was at a large West Riding model shop the other week where I saw some TT:120 models in the flesh for the first time, and was very impressed by the detail and the general feel of the scale. Chatting to the fella behind the counter he said the range had been an excellent seller. Once they bring out a grouping era 0-6-0 tank or small goods tender engine I'll buy a bit and set up an inglenook.
New to the hobby thanks to Hornby introducing TT. Loving the hobby and especially this gauge - I was never surveyed by Sam about this. Perhaps his youth prevents him being able to see the bigger picture. But as always we're all entitled to our subjective opinions. Sam just beware you influence others, so try to be a little more balanced when offering your thoughts.
I really want TT to succeed, it’s always been my dream to build a layout but space is one of the biggest issues. TT makes the hobby more accessible to someone like me
You make some interesting points Sam. I agree about the quality of the models, and the mistake, in my view, about Hornby's attitude to other manufacturers. However I think your reading of your survey is flawed. To me, for 12% of Sam's Trains viewers to be now modelling TT, after just one year, is a great achievement. Will you still think it a mistake by Hornby, if 18-20% of your viewers are TT modellers this time next year. For me it is TT or nothing in my hobby.
The quality seems to be there with the small handful of TT models Hornby have produced so far. If these new models that are in the pipework are released on time, the same, if not higher quality needs to be there, unlike Hornby's 00 scale which can be hit and miss at times. Let's hope that TT remains that bit cheaper than 00 in order to encourage more to the hobby. Great video as always, Sam.
A couple of times over the years I’ve collected oo gauge items to start a layout. Both times I’ve been rueing the space I needed. I moved to the USA and this house has a 40ft basement. Plenty big enough for that oo gauge. But yet I’m going to do a TT120 which will give me more of a space for prototypical length trains. I applaud Hornby for trying to invigorate the hobby. I believe they can’t collude with companies to offer a broader range for competition purposes. I’m sure they are doing the best they can given the economic landscape. If you want to start in tt120 then there’s not many that can buy all the rolling stock all at once anyway. So get building your layout and buy when you can afford. That’s what I’m doing.
You're presenting a particular narrative with those poll results that doesn't feel entirely grounded. Yes, 88% are choosing to stick with their established scale. It would unthinkable to expect 20-30% of existing modellers to move entirely to a new scale in 12 months. So that isn't a meaningful metric. Likewise, "only 2% choosing to switch" - I'm surprised it's as high as that. Hornby were explicit about the commercial positioning for TT - they intend to attract new people to the hobby with it. On that, according to your poll, 11% of respondents are beginning to model in TT. Add in the 2% switchers, and 13% of your 2,000 or so polled respondents are claiming to be spending their money on TT. That's more than one in eight. Yes, it's a single sample set, but they surprisingly favourable figures for Hornby. I am a regular viewer, and I recognise/understand the recent general antipathy towards Hornby's commercial model and pricing strategy (although the emotive rhetoric about "holding customers in contempt" is unnecessary and beneath this channel's long established journalistic standards). But let's be careful not to fall into confirmation bias by selectively highlighting a handful of metrics in a set of results that is otherwise (surprisingly) favourable.
Yeah that’s fair to say - the results are definitely up for interpretation! They don’t look that positive to me, but maybe those stats are more impressive than I thought. What do you mean about holding customers in contempt? I don’t think I made that point in this video, unless I did?
For quite a while, the train sets at around £170 were always out of stock but you could still buy the contents of the sets separately from Hornby but that cost around £300 so that would have put many people off.
@thekingdomofostroviainhoe3299 they ment what they wrote that the lack of available sets has resulted in a slower up take of tt, youtube is not twitter haters are less welcome in the comments maybe re read comments before you make an x (twitter) style comment have a nice day😊
I purchased the very first set at launch and although it had some teething issues, overall I was impressed. As a OO collector/modeller the TT went into a box and not used UNTIL last week. Something was very appealing about being able to sit at the dining room table and watch some trains go round. Will I invest heavily into it? Probably not. But I will certainly get a few locos for nights where I just want to sit in the main room.
Thanks Sam, your hype "eating" video definitely helping the scale. I guess views are really good on such videos... I am glad that Peco is not as scared as Heljan and have released their TT products, they are great.
I wish Hornby would also produce H0 rolling stock. OO-models seem rather oversized on my H0-layout. Lima had a few British models in H0-scale, I have a few of them, and their size is great.
@@valentinsn-ostalgiemodellbahnCause at the time HO for British meant certain details couldn't produce well at that scale so they made the model scaled slightly bigger making OO gauge. The evidence that they to keep it at simliar scales is that most 00 gauge locomotive nowadays can use HO scale tracks with almost no issues. Edit Motors couldn't be sized down enough for British models was the main reason for the change of scale.
All the attempts to sell British outline HO models failed and soon stopped production. Lima had massive success once they went OO for UK outline instead of HO. Fleischman was another unsuccessful UK HO range with just their Warship locomotive and Bullied coaches before they gave up. The Marklin HO Warship was even more of a disaster. So much wrong with their current A3.
But how much of what's out there is compatible with what Hornby is making or for trains in the UK exclusively? Also, he mentioned that Peco makes track and cars for TT.
@@AlcoLoco251 Maybe they should talk to TT manufactures on the continent to build up the TT market in UK. There were always such plans, including US market, but all failed exactly because the major modelrailway manufactures blocked the initiatives everywhere. Hornby purchased dozens of continental manufacturers with knowledge with experience, why they did not discuss these facts internally? Nobody knows in the Hornby corporation the history of the last 2-3 decades, not to mention the technical solutions what is today common, a standard in model production? Even in TT! Look at the latest PIKO TT models. Different world. Roco also turned back to TT when they purchased the whole product line of Kühn.
As a long term OO modeller, TT:120 has zero attraction. Still it only matters that there are enough other modellers who like TT:120. If so my opinion doesn't matter.
I think that you have missed one aspect in your TT review, and that is that it's not a totally new scale starting at 0 customer or support base. Well, it is new in England, but it's already a well estabilished scale around central Europe (Germany, Poland, Czechia, etc.). In this area the king scale is H0 (1:87), but TT is the second (at least in my country), beating even the N scale. So there is a lot of modellers that are already hooked to the TT. They are just not from Britain. Of couse, because they are not british, they would less likely buy the models of british trains, but still it's at least some initial base that can be helping on the beginning. This foreign base can be attracted by the famous and well known locos like the Flying Scotsman, Mallard, HST, and couple more, that are famous and recognizable abroad. I by myself am a TT modeller collecting TT trains for about 15-20 years or so. And I can tell you that the locos and coaches that Hornby is releasing now were missing in my collection for long, and there was no chance to get them at all, because nobody was ever making them (except few from Triang which is ... very outdated). I have bought the A1, A3, A4, have preordered the Coronation, HST, and I am thinking also about the Class 50 (as it's the only classical diesel in range at the moment), and I'd definitely go also into Deltic and Peak if Hornby would make them. Just because they are such world-known icons (or at least good enough representatives). And that's the boost and support the Hornby can be building on at the beginning before the TT market in Britain itself is established properly. I think, that Hornby is getting a lot of orders from abroad because they just filled the gap on the already existing TT market in global. But this support boost from abroad will be only temporary until it gets saturated. We will buy some iconic locos, because they are so iconic and famous, but the British Railways is not our main interest in the end. This may still give Hornby some time to expand the range to become more attractive also for the british customers as well. It's a question though, whether it will give time long enough.
@@thekingdomofostroviainhoe3299 I don't think Sam has some "agenda". It was probably just an overlook. Sam is british and its natural he sees the scale from his local perspective. It's easy to forget there is a world outside where things may be different ;-)
This is a CLASS post. Great explanation, lots of details. I model in T-gauge, but I have noticed a good deal of TT on Shapeways. Is that not a source of locos, and passenger/freight, for you?
@@Demun1649 Sure, 3D prints can be an option. You just get the chassis, and its up to you to finish the surface, paint it, get somehow the decals, and most importantly deal somehow with the drive for a loco. Some prefer to just buy a finished model from a manufacturer instead :-)
I mean TT has been around for a long long time but there's a reason it was never really popular back in the day and it's the same reason it isn't working now, it's trying to fill a gap in the market that didn't really exist.
Outside Eastern Europe, TT had gone down in the 1970s when you can have the same quality with N scale, with smaller models. And people who wants to build and fiddle with their models have already OO/HO to do that, with more convenience due to the larger size. TT is interesting if you want to model a GDR layout set in the 1950s to the 1980s. I seriously doubt it will catch on UK market.
@@OlivierGabin I'm sorry you are wrong, if you think, that today you can built in TT only an Eastern German Layout Today there is a big range in TT in Germany including models of Western Germany and todays modern locos and wagons. A lot of us model railway fans from Germany still waiting for the class 77 from Hornby in TT : 120. But we also have models from Arnold, Piko, Roco (including Kühn), Tillig and smaller firms like Beckmann, Hädl, Kunze, Saxonia, Schirmer and not to forget manufacturer in Czeck Republik like MTB and Igra. I share absolutely Sam's opinion that it had be better if other manufacturers had also startet with TT in Great Britain. All problems in the 1960s with TT in Western Europe (ROKAL) and Great Britain (Tri-ang) had the same reason: only one firm never can fulfill the dreams of the model railroad fans. After falling the Wall 1989 in Germany we had the same problem again. Tillig has been the only manufacturer. And long, long time the survival of TT in Germany hung by a thread. But luckily Kühn, Piko and Roco started some years later with TT. Today we have a relatively constant TT-Marked, while H0 and N having a lot of problems concerning the aging of model railroaders. TT model railroader are on average 10 years younger.
we sell used European and Japanese models on ebay, and there has been a notable increase in demand for TT120 stuff from Europe (where its a much more active scale)
I really think that Hornby missed a trick by not investing in an oo9 range. There is already a massive interest in that scale, without having to worry too much about track development. The scale already has a lot of options in terms of locomotives and livery, from the festineog locos to Ravensglass and eskdale. Plus they would have the opportunity to go for a few more custom and random designs and not have to fret too much about the backlash like the Beatles locomotive
Agreed, i think oo9 is great but i would like to see some proper competition because the prices are ridiculously high. Even the old kits are silly prices because there isnt anyone else making them.
While 009, my prefered scale, would be nice, some 016.5 locos and rolling stock would make more sense as they could use existing track and even chassis. Imagine the number of Festiniog sets, Prince, two Bug Boxes and an oval of track you could sell in Portmadog?
Love TT 120, if I was starting out , I would go TT 120. I use it on my OO layout as a backdrop in the hills, a bit of forced perspective. It’s quite big in Europe, and as High fell has done, the continental locos look good on a UK layout. I think Hornby are on a winner.
Hornby's biggest mistake was launching TT as something new, ignoring that they already make a whole TT range of models under their Arnold label, and ignoring that there is a lot of support from a whole range of other manufacturers on the continent. This allowed commentators like you to talk down the range and to talk down the scale. Hornby could also have made more of the point that the gauge was correct for the scale, but that would have been to point out what an ugly chimera OO is.
Although its only ever going to be niche, there is enough demand for European outline TT for 7 companies to make it: Kres, MTB, Tillig, Piko, Roco, and Hornby Arnold. Piko traditionally have a significant amount of east European locos in their range some of which sell in small volumes. They do it because they can helped by having their own large factory in China. Owner Dr. René F. Wilfer would certainly be interested in making British outline TT if the market was already established. As far as I can tell Hornby have sold more TT120 than expected so commissioned extra production of the already launched stuff. This and other factors outside of Hornby's control have slowed down new releases although Hornby already had the HST in their warehouse as Sam was making this video! The forthcoming 9F looks good.
No, great decision. The train sets have done really well. I still want to get one when funds allow! There needs to be more rolling stock like coaches/wagons for the locos being made thus far.
@@mytinplaterailway They've sold out repeatedly. Currently, the Easterner train set (DC and DCC) is sold out. The Scotsman set has also sold out multiple times. Hornby was left scrambling to create starter bundles in order to keep TT on the shelves. And those bundles subsequently sold out too.
I’m getting into British modeling for the first time and I considered starting with TT. The reason I didn’t go with it is exactly what you listed: too little variety. Maybe I should go with it though. It’s going to be a long time before I can amass a collection of trains, so I could keep pace with Hornby’s release of new things.😂
17:25 - Starting with the A4 and A3 meant they only needed to develope 1 chassis and tender, then just plonk a different body on the loco': 2 new models (albeit ones that are too similar) for the price of about 1.3!😉
I'm one of those who's decided to model TT alongside 00 and N. I quite like the scale, and if I was starting from scratch in my attic I'd definitely be considering TT instead of 00 (N is just a little too small for my eyes in the attic!) I agree that smaller locos (a Jinty, 45xx or J72 for example) etc would be a good idea, and definitely something that isn't LNER (I'd like a Black 5, but then I would...). If I was Hornby, I'd be targeting the train set market more heavily with TT. Homes are getting smaller, N isn't often available in toy shops or high street catalogues, many outside the hobby aren't really aware of anyone other than Hornby. I've overheard a few parents telling kids they haven't got room for a train set, and if Hornby pushed the idea that TT was a smaller but just as usable alternative, and concentrated on TT sets for Christmas presents rather than 00, they might kick start the scale. They could also make more of the fact that for those with smaller houses and older eyes TT would fit better and be more visible than N.
TT120 was a massive company killing mistake. The product was rushed to market and there were lots of videos on UA-cam showing it struggling to run smoothly unless it was set up as DCC or better said like this 'D$$'. The biggest problem apart from lack of variety is the cost of TT120. Honestly you would be far better off getting into N Scale. Yes Sam Hornby is in real trouble, their share price is looking more like The Big Short. Who's going to buy in before it hits $0. Just on the idea of 'direct to consumer' ideas, back in 2014 Mattle attempted to do this with Thomas Wooden Railway, as history tells it failed, then came a dumbed down TWR called Thomas wood. It failed and now we have a reworking of TWR thats set at a maxxed out price. Anyway well done explaining all the failings of Hornby, you can never keep your eyes off a train wreck.
TO THIS DAY: there is no supplier of genuine N SCALE trackwork, which is why I quit that size some 50+ years ago. From back in 1968, I still have several 3 foot lengths of code 40 True N SCALE Kemtrack amde by Kemtron, but switches etc. were never produced. I met Levon Kemalyon in 1971 and worked at Kemtron in tooling for a bit in the mid 1970's. Simply put, N scale are toys. Aside from "Microtrains" everything is bulky and oversized.
I have to say I think your reviews are brilliant Sam. One thing I would say that wasn’t known when you posted this video is that the HST is now available and should be hitting buyers homes tomorrow (me included 😬) I also believe the Duchess and Class 50 are very close to arrival. If that happens then the loco stock will have doubled in a couple of months. The 66 will arrive in Summer taking the number of locos to 7. Ok that’s not an amazing number but not bad and probably more than Triang made in the same timeframe in the 60s. If we get a couple of nice surprises in the April unveiling- Castle Class, Small steam 0-6-0 etc then we could be at 10 locos quite soon. I’ll consider that not too bad in say two yrs
I would say this....anyone thinking of going in to TT, don't let Sam put you off. It really is a fantastic scale of great quality, with a dozen loco's available at present and more on the way. TT brought me back in to the hobby after years of OO neglect. Just loving it ! :)
TT is a very small market in a world dominated by N, O, and HO/OO. I get it fills that gap between HO and N, but it's been slow to catch on in the states.
They do say it's pretty popular in Europe - but there needs to be a lot more product before it's appealing to the UK market! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Do you really not know about Tillig offer? They alone have 28 steam, 25+ diesel (excluding beginner sets), and 55 electric locos in their shop. There is nothing for the UK modeller, but I thought it would be at least fair to mention that this scale is doing just fine in Europe.
@@brutusduran8592 Americans typically have larger homes than those in the UK. Larger than what they actually need in my opinion. HO gauge is very popular here and it's not likely that TT will make a dent in the market.
Some of us Sam do not have an extra room or floor to set up a train set layout. Or for that matter choose to buy a hundred toy locomotives for their collection. Most of us can barely provide enough space for a 4'x 6' table layout and choose to buy less than six toy locomotives. Frankly I am surprised Hornby has never adopted N scale toy trains before, and wonder why it took so long to produce TT-120 scale trains. And no we didn't expect a smaller train model to cost less, usually smaller scales costs MORE...
I would have liked something GWR. I bet Southern and Midland people feel the same. I'm currently in OO The Bachmann GWR set in N you recently reviewed looks tempting. I'm not holding my breath for future models. I've had a pre order with them since dinosaurs roamed the earth. Cheers Paul.
Love TT 120. It is a fabulous scale and it has restarted my interest in making a model railway after several decades. I've already ordered a lot of stock and planning to start on that layout this year. Really looking forward to some more steam releases especially GWR/WR and some green 1960s era diesels. Fingers crossed Hornby makes a success of this. You're right about Hornby announcing the exact same locos as Heljan; really stupid and presumably designed to put Heljan off. Hornby achieved their aim, but at what cost?
Don’t forget that TT 120 is compatible with European TT, same scale. Hornby already have a common parts bucket and track system from their Arnold Range, and opportunities exist to make ferry and Eurostar models for both ranges. A TT 120 USA tank as well, and several other models ran in Europe, and indeed, in some cases, still do, Class 20, 56, 86, 87, 08, 77, 76.
My opinion too. There is zero technical reasons nowadays to not go this way. And that would have solve the problem of the discrepancies in the Hornby OO range, plus getting an occasion to to a budget range of models.
@@OlivierGabinPeople would be able to use their existing track and layout and Hornby would have an international market with HO ferry vans and channel tunnel stock. Not to mention all the British locos exported to Europe in recent decades. No brainer if you ask me.
British HO should have been mainstream over 40 years ago, 00 should have died out with Dublo. Triang now current Hornby should have started HO as by the time they got going there was no excuse not too.
I am happy to model in TT. The space demands of OO are too great. I recognise a new scale has to start somewhere. But as Hornby advertised the benefit of a shelf top layout the biggest missing model is a steam tank engine for end to end running and shunting. For new modellers TT is a project so we are prepared to wait for the range to develop. The real question is the future of OO. If the space requirement deters new entrants then TT has to be a long term project. But over commit to TT might risk Hornby's viability to supply other scales. New entrants such as Accurascale also threaten the dominance of Hornby in OO, which is now a very competitive market. So Hornby's future in OO could depend on the success of TT120. Thanks for your positive reviews of the TT project so far. I think there has been a sceptical response to TT from the established community and some retailers. I think your survey reflects this. The TT community is strong and growing in my view. And reflects the quality of the product.
I went into TT because when it was coming out I was planning a new N-gauge & I loved the new potential of the scale. I'm not worried with so little product been out as more is coming like the class 43 HST's , 66's , 50 's & the Coronation's.
@@jamescollins3647 The Class 43s are literally in England, being prepared for shipment. The Class 50s are confirmed to be in production. There's no risk.
This hobby is full of the most miserable defeatist bastards. Don't let them grind you down! Reviews on a brand new scale after 12 months by someone who's never run so much as a burger van and works out of his attic aren't credible beyond the pub-bore logic of those who watch life go by and have all the answers.
Well for what it's worth I have put my money where my mouth is & have a good deal of stuff coming from Hornby TT. This is a brand new scale coming to the british outline models market , it is going to take time for it to establish itself. My only complaint so far is not with Hornby but with Heljan who pulled out of the TT market when they saw Hornby coming out with models they were going to make as well, imo Heljan should have gone with with the lesser known prototype & other diesels that got them started in the OO market as well .But what do I know .@@chairmakerPete
As a nooby noobster I was struggling to decide whether to go N gauge or OO so for me TT120 seems to be the ideal compromise. OO gauge has almost unlimited choice of everything and for most people that would be fantastic but I actually find it a bit mind boggling, overwhelming and confusing. There is also the awkward OO/HO scale variation and the chunky oddscale bits of N gauge that can't physically be made to correct scale because it is so small. TT120 is a standard scale all over. Also, for me the limitations of what is available TT120 is actually a benefit in a strange way and I feel I can get into this at ground level and grow with it. I daresay that when I get deeper into it I will find that what is available is very limited but for now it's ideal.
Very interesting commentary. I don't currently have a layout, but I had lots of Hornby OO when I was a kid. I never really had enough space for it, and if I build a layout in future, TT really does look perfect. The killer feature for me is the accurate scale:gauge ratio, as well as the ideal size of the models, making the most of space without being as fiddly as N. I think in all honesty you'd be brave to be an early adopter - it could still go pear-shaped, and the whole thing feels like it was the vision of a man who has now left the company. That said, I think there's exciting things to come. I was at Model Rail Scotland at the weekend, and there was a TT demo layout on the Hornby stand. There was a blue and grey HST running on it, and it looked superb. I'd certainly fancy one of those.
Hi Sam, Interesting video but I also think there are a few things you haven't considered. 1) TT120 isn't just a British scale like OO or N gauge it has world wide appeal opening up potentially a much bigger market as it's already popular in the US, Europe and Japan. I would expect the class 66 in particular to be popular in Europe as it's a locomotive that operates there in the real world. 2) Currently Hornby have pretty much a monopoly here of TT, unlike with OO and N gauge where they're competing with both other manufacturers and a flourishing secondhand market and thus missing out on a lot of sales. For instance I buy the majority of my OO models secondhand, so whilst the TT market maybe relatively small at present Hornby have almost all of it rather than only a piece. 3) The release of a good range of locos in TT IS an issue I agree. However Hornby have been unfortunate there in that production in China has been severely hit by covid shut downs and also shortages of some crucial materials - which is outside Horby's control and delayed new models being released. There is also a limited number of factories producing models and Hornby have to compete with other manufacturers to place their orders. This limits how many different models can be produced. 4) I think TT was mainly aimed at getting more people into the hobby by making it both more practical and cheaper than OO. The reality is the majority of OO modellers are getting on and won't be around too much longer and there aren't enough young modellers coming into the hobby to replace them. What happens to Hornby then? This means sticking just with OO isn't a viable option. Hornby needed to try something to firstly make the hobby more attractive to new comers to the hobby and secondly tap into the international market not just the GB one. Whether it will be a success is the question and I'm not sure how much Hornby have tried to market it outside the UK or to people outside the hobby. They really need to start marketing in places like the US, Europe and Japan where TT is already popular, especially the Flying Scotsman and Mallard which are famous throughout the world. To bring it to the attention of potential new comers it needs to be marketed in places where those not already in the hobby will see it. e.g Christmas ads on TV and social media, have it stocked in Supermarkets and toyshops, etc.
I am from the continent and I think most us were quite excited when Hornby announced to join the TT community. It is not a big one ( in comparison to H0 or N) but we have few excellent manufacturers and the overall quality is quite high. I was amoung the first ones who purchased the wonderfull Pullman coaches. Here Hornby did an excellent job. Unfortunatelly on the steam locomotives they made a huge mistake. They simple copied their 00 scale model, what is far away from the quality standards in today’s TT world. In TT the manufacturers many decades ago solved the problem with a 4-6-2 wheel arrangement, Hornby did not ( wheater in 00 nor in TT). They should just study the TT models in their corporation (Arnold TT). This model for us is far away from the expected quality or model fidelity. I know for you the priority is mostly on painting and livery, on the continent for is also important the technical accuracy and also the internal construction like drive chain, flywheels, wheel arrangement etc. Here Hornby’s solutions are not up to date.😮 Also the selection of diesels is not very lucky. Those huge modern 6 axle locomotives do not fit exactly the age of the offered wonderfull small freigth wagons and probably not the first TT layouts in UK. Sam you are right, smaller steam and diesel locomotives would fit much better the market and create more business. I hope Hornby revises their TT plans for the future and will offer up to date models also for us, outside of UK.
I hope Hornby offers some up to date models for people IN the UK.... If you want to attract new younger modellers you need to offer the sort of trains you can see on the railways today. TT120 has space for big mainline modern image layouts - that's where the focus should be, not on replicating stuff that already exists in larger or smaller scales. Look at Pete Waterman's exhibition layouts - big modern prototypes. He might prefer 7mm Western steam era models for his own layout - so do I - but that's not what he presents for the public. If it's to survive TT120 has to be a modern image scale to separate itself from the other scales and find its own niche. If you're cramped for space and you haven't already made use of the superb N gauge models available maybe it's not just space you're short of , it's motivation and creativity. I can't think of anything more tedious than people scratching around wanting to build a TT120 branch line and whining about not being able to get a Pannier or a Jinty. What a waste of a scale. Finally I recall that in a Railway Modeller article a while ago Simon Kohler was reported as saying that there was no market research done prior to Hornby committing to TT120. The decision was based on instinct and years of model railway marketing experience. Really? I mean really!!!!????? Simon of course has now parted company with Hornby. Make of that what you will.
@@cathybrind2381 I fully agree with you. Problem is that the new trains are extremely long while our space is still the same. While on a real station a real high speed train from 7-9 coaches is still a short train, in TT it is more than 4 feet long just the train. Or if one wants to have a modern class 66 locomotive it is slowly longer as two modern container wagons , that means a big powerful machine will pull 3-4 wagons and will occupy the whole station.
I'm fairly sure Sam will have to make another video in April, after Hornby's tt120 announcement which is due then. I'm looking forward to my Duchess of Atholl before the end March, it's my favorite engine of all time. If the quality is up to Flying Scotsman level, I won't be disappointed.
I have a Triang TT Brittania along with six others in Four different gauges, so I’m a fan of that Class 7F as with many other modellers. I would have thought Hornby should have produced them in the TT range first ! Keep up the good work Sam.
I tend to think that TT120 is being offered as an alternative train set to other scales for newbies. A way to enter the hobby with a decent size layout in a small space. Hornby obviously does not want to compete in the N gauge market so went down the TT route. I assume the hope is that people buying the sets will develop a love of the hobby, hone their modelling skills & grow with the range. Looking on the Hornby forum they have had the added bonus of returning modellers adopting the range due to the space saving issues. I do not believe the intention was to attract droves of people from established scales. Those with established layouts will stick with them as it is costly to change & they love the detailed offerings if they have the funds or like the huge second hand market. I would envisage the TT range to be a ten year project creating a new revenue source which will help secure Hornby's future for the benefit of all modellers. Sorry for the long winded response, always check your channel & enjoy your views & reviews.
I suppose one advantage of tt120 is that we actually have a scale and gauge that harmonises with continental tt. A fantasy of mine is running uk and continental stock together, like the night sleeper
One of the reasons that TT was priced cheaper than OO was the direct sales route. This also hung Heljan out to dry. It is hard to see how this can be sustained now retailers are back in the mix. However, it is still early days as a new scale is going to need 5-10 years of sustained development to promote customer confidence in the scale. Getting the Class 66 out would help as this would also be perfect for an existing European market where Class 66 and Class 77 are commonly used. With everyone expecting it to be a flash in the pan then TT will be in an awkward place - I like the scale but I also need to maintain other scales.
There is legacy TT used stock, but it's Continental outline! But as both are to the same scale and gauge it is perfectly in order to run them together. Several Heritage railways in the UK have Continental prototypes so there's your reason!
Peco can ditch the scenery and the rolling stock, and sell their tracks to German modellers already doing continental TT if things goes bad. their real competitor here is Tillig.
Agree there should be more introductions to maintain momentum . Clearly Hornby don’t have the manufacturing capacity for this , but I think it will come , I’ve just seen the HST and 50 which is imminent . I blame Simon Kohler for this . There should have been an 0-6-0 to accompany the A3 and A4 . For modern image I don’t understand the 50. It should have been a 37 47 and HST to get some mommentun going . However apparently sets are selling as soon as they are in stock, so I think that it’s quite successfully and has a good future . For me I’m contemplating a TT120 layout but I need a 37 47 and HST along with Blue Grey mk1s before I make the jump . I think it will happen though . I think the 66 will be later though . Again I’d question Kohlers choice of locos to establish the scal . I’d have gone HST Mk3s , 37 47 Mk1s A3 A4 tank engine , 08
Hornby scuppering Heljan's attempts was when I realised I'll be waiting it out a lot longer than I imagined. Perhaps the scale will survive (yes, I'm sure it will, it exists now), but I'm yet to be convinced Hornby will stay the distance on it.
I have OO, Tri-ang TT and N Gauge layouts. TT is great for saving space and easier to handle than N Gauge. Prices for Hornby TT:120 are too high I feel. The world is still struggling post Covid. It will be interesting to see if Hornby can make TT work financially.
I was also there, saw peco and hornby had a small selection, It can’t remember anything else … The wee layout at the Hornby stand was simple, but it looked a quality product
I'm mainly O gauge coming from OO, 40 odd years ago. Bit of On30 in between (basically as expensive as O gauge). I have recently started dabbling in N. N had always been toy railways to me, the offerings now especially on the second market are really very impressive. Older locos can be easily re motored into smooth beasts, lots of spares available. Very impressed with the tender powered offerings from Grafar like the Scott, Black 5 and Jube. I have an N gauge Peak, not as impressive as my O gauge one granted ... but it doesn't need a 400 ft track to run on :-) I admire Hornbys confidence and investment in the hobby, it has attracted many new comers, but I don't see the point of a completely new scale, and the people I know who are religiously the original TT and 3mm don't seem too either (although like many O gaugers, most are in the late winter years now).
Hey Sammy you forgot to mention Peco has 8 versions of the planked wagons, now a good range of track and buildings kits. Also West Hill Wagon Works and other manufacturers. So of just grew up with clock work trains, whats available today in OO/HO and all the other scale did happen over night it all took a lot of for site.
I actually think the drip feed approach of models is a great idea. It builds anticipation and discussion. A sense of high value. To have all at once would cheapen the brand and glut the appetite. A model railway is a lifelong hobby. I for one are happy to wait a couple of years before the smaller steam trains come out as it will probably take me that long to build the track layout. And if I was feeling impatient, I might buy an 08 as a stop gap. A smart move by Hornby.
Sam, the problem with your survey is this 2,000 responses will have been pretty much from folk who are already engaged in model railways. A vast majority of newbies won't have heard of you. Hornby here is targeting absokute beginners with high quality sets at a decent price point. Also they are clever with the progressive track packs thst make it easy to expand step at a time. The lack of scenic is a bit worrying, but overall we are very happy with our "Scotsman" set and add on rail packs. We have been broem away with thd detail at this scale. It's just a pity they seem intent on making enemies with competitors rather than seeking out collaboration. I'm just glad they are running a model railway empire and not a foreign country.
The short answer is, No. The product is exemplary, the size is really likeable and speaking personally I love it. Ok the initial range is small and perhaps a tad incoherent, but then it’s a totally new range. To quote a former Hornby employee, “Rome wasn’t built in a day!” Having driven the Inter-City 125, I am looking forward to owning one in TT:120 and for once I can run a complete train instead of the compromise I put up with in OO.
I wonder why did you not call Hornby and get some answers to your questions? They deserve a right of reply (although I suspect your analysis is right). I reckon Scotsman and Mallard use the same chassis, so are relatively cheap to produce.
Releases have been slow, but the scale just has a great feel to it. Getting away from the most basic problem with OO - the track is the wrong scale - is a joy. It'll remain a niche until a critical mass of rolling stock comes along, but that doesn't make it a failure - especially as they sell out everything they produce.
I personally feel that Hornby should’ve just stayed focused on their 00 range. I know it’s normal for a business to venture out to quote ‘unknown territory’ but the thing is that Hornby have an extremely stronghold in the 00 gauge market, therefore it’s extremely hard to convince existing model railway enthusiasts to buy a whole new range of models which are incompatible with their existing ones. Alot of enthusiasts nowadays don’t have the space to build a whole new layout for a whole new scale, neither do they have the budget to venture away from 00 gauge when you can get plentiful secondhand 00 gauge models which can already run on existing layouts that one might have.
Hornby should have concentrated on their 00 stuff with a focus on reducing the prices while producing better quality. Example been Hornby class 56. Great model, in my opinion and probably their best diesel loco. However, I received my Cavalex class 56 a couple of weeks ago and sorry to say that blows the socks off the Hornby model for detail. Maybe controversial, but I think the Hornby model runs better. Maybe I have not run the Cavalex model in enough yet.
Good video. I got back into the model railway in January this year for the first time since late 80s. I went TT for a few reasons, I can get more track on my layout than OO. I have 3rd & 4th radius circuits with multiple sidings, if I used OO it would be a single loop and fewer sidings. Even though TT is expensive it’s still not as much as OO. Starting again from scratch on either TT or OO I still didn’t have locos and coaches for the set I wanted. OO has a few LMS locos but not any coaches (they have blue but not the LMS red), I also wanted to do an era 8 set but again I was limited to what was available. With TT LMS was due out in next few months along with coaches and era 8 coaches and the HST. The biggest problem I have with Hornby is they do a run then let the line go, they need to keep bread and butter items in stock like popular locos and coaches and rotate less popular items. They also need to allow pre ordering of out of stock items. As for the poll, Sir Humphrey Appleby from Yes Minister springs to mind. You can make any poll go in your favour depending on how or who you ask the question. Not saying your poll was biased at all far from it. Just bear in mind your audience, 2000+ people who are primarily OO owners who have spend many years and thousands in cash on their models. Of course majority will not want to invest in a new scale or abandon OO for TT. Maybe if the question was “if you were starting out for the first time as new modeller…”. There seems to be a good few models being released this year with coaches and hopefully this will continue with new announcements in April. I personally love the TT as being space restricted a 6 x 4 board, it gives me the ability to do a layout that would take up a large amount of space or a smaller available layout in OO. Really like your videos and can’t wait to see more!
I’ve got a few of Hornby TT120 locomotives 2 A4 classes, 2 A3 Classes and 1 08 class and nearly all current rolling stock, building a 1500 by 1200mm layout got track laid only can run 2 big trains but the 08 still doesn’t have its Bluetooth decoder released. I have a backup plan of ripping it out and making a bigger N gauge layout if Hornby pull out of TT120. I just feel there still not enough items not now how it was originally suggested it would be coming out.
I would quite like to see TT do well even though i model in N scale but one thing i really found over the years is I really dislike Hornby as a company. Its like they actively do things on purpose to make the hobby as well as themselves struggle at times. Like Sam said they had opportunities to work with others to grow TT but their greed and to get money for the shareholders trumps actually any sane logic or good competition so everyone loses
The title is slightly click baity. I am one of the 9% beginners with TT. The problem is the endless stock issues and the creeping prices. I honestly dont think your poll is representative. Until we get numbers or Hornby pulls the whole thing, who knows how well its really done. I hope it does well. I cant do OO its too big.
You mean titles should be designed to deter clicks rather than attract them? That's not how the internet works xD The poll is representative - it wasn't faked! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
It isn't. You don't need to read polls just look at the bigger picture of what other hobbyists are doing. There is a reason no one was clamoring for TT. The demand is already satisfied by OO and N. In your case, you should have went to N if space was a factor. You will get even more room than TT and it is cheaper!
I enjoy your channel but I think your conclusions here are a little premature. I saw the HST and Class 66 samples (I have one on pre-order) at Model Rail Scotland and they are really high quality. And seeing them running makes me realise how compromised the scale/gauge relationship is in 00. There was a lot of interest in TT120 - especially among younger enthusiasts. Any range takes a while to develop, and I think most will understand this.
I don't think it's really fair to call TT:120 a failure yet. You mention the lack of models released. There's a very distinct possibility that they're suffering the same delays that the OO scale range has had from Hornby. I only just got my GWR 14xx a few weeks ago, despite ordering it last January. My J36 still hasn't arrived. And the 2MT was announced in 2022, and only just made it out at the tail end of last year. It's why Hornby scaled back their launch range for 2024, and said that there will be a separate announcement for TT:120. Which I think is due in April. It's also probably not best to use your audience as a measuring stick on the appeal of the range. Your audience are largely OO scale model fans. And it was made clear that TT:120 is not designed to convert those of us who already spent years investing in OO. It's to encourage newer people to enter the hobby who maybe view lack of space as an issue, but still find N scale too daunting because of how small it is. I get Hornby selling a limited range to start with. As much as everyone in the hobby might be fed up of yet more A1s and A4s, those outwith might find them appealing to start with. Having always wanted a Flying Scotsman, but never having the space. They've probably looked at testing the waters to start with, and then decided on this and pre-orders whether to go fully forward into the project. As they've had plenty of failures in the past. The Steampunk range comes to mind, as they went heavy on the marketing only for it to have no future after the first wave. And that stock selling for peanuts due to lack of interest by customers. As does to a lesser extent the PlayTrains range, which looks like it's going to be phased out. It was always going to be much harder to get a very young child interested in something like that, compared to say a Thomas the Tank Engine trackmaster set. Which had more variety, accessories, and most importantly play factor. PlayTrains didn't even have a steam engine in their range. Putting models into retailers is possibly down to the online sales not being as high as expected. Or it's potentially Hornby realising that people still want to see models up close and personal before they buy. I don't see an issue with Hornby sacrificing a percentage of the profit they would have made selling directly, to increase their overall profit through selling vastly more units through the shops. Especially when another thing to consider, is that a lot of these sets will be sold to older people who don't shop online. Either for themselves, as I find a lot of people joining beginners groups pages on social media are retired or older people wanting to start for the first time since they were a child running their old Tri-Ang sets. Or they bought them for their children or grandchildren to get into the hobby with them, or by themselves. I was at Model Rail Scotland yesterday. And although there wasn't much regarding TT:120, that's primarily because it's such a new scale. But what was encouraging was manufacturers making announcements for TT:120. Everything from track and wagons in the case of Peco, to buildings and other scenery products from several other companies. So there is a market there if other companies are coming in to release items as well. Even if they aren't locos. Like I've previously said, it will take around 5 years to judge whether the scale has been a success or not. I'm still predicting that within a couple of years, Bachmann will be making their own announcements of TT:120 sets if they see the market starting to flourish. It wouldn't surprise me if they even tested the waters with a regular train set, and a Thomas themed set as well. So it's maybe a bit too early for the discussions on whether TT:120 has flopped just yet.
I guess one year in, it's difficult to tell whether TT scale will work. I certainly hope so. It really does need more players in the game - competition - range - market development - promotion - kits - sel-build parts.
The scattergun approach to eras arguably makes the range even less viable for anyone who actually wants to focus on a particular era. An alternative approach might to have been to pick a single era and prototype and focus on that - in which case, LNER / Eastern Region 1930s-1960s would be a good shout (though of course I'd have gone for GWR branch line :p ) But two express locos speaks to really only the train set market. Arguably given the greater degree of standardisation and coverage, a better start would be the LMS: a Coronation perhaps, a Black Five, and a Jinty.
To be fair, it takes time for any locos & rolling stock will be released at some time in the near future and I have patience for future products. I really like TT120 and it got potential. I have really enjoyed the train set from one of the two as I really enjoy the A4 plus three coaches in action and I got a board that I used to run it on. And I love it.
5:40 I would like to disagree here, the statistics can definitely be seen differently....... Over half of the people chose TT, the beginners...... If you can take the survey seriously at all. If you look at the market shares of N or Z in Germany, very low. In my opinion, comparing this with existing huge H0/00 marketshare is basically total nonsense.... The expectation could hardly have been that everyone would switch to TT in a few months. Of course you don't just switch to TT and "throw away" all your rolling stock -_- Nearly nobody does that, that shouldn't surprise anyone. Objectively speaking, 00/H0 is the safe choice A few years ago I thought about beginning with TT, but then decided against it. Also because the track gauge was practically only used in (eastern) Germany and was in third place there in terms of market share. Hornby TT didn't exist back then. If there had been Hornby TT then the decision might have been different. Hornby TT's main target should probably be less existing customers and more beginners, for obvious reasons. In Germany, TT was also referred to as "the ideal gauge" by a former manufacturer. I would also like to see more support for Hornby here. H0/00 also has massive disadvantages, which kept me and many friends away from the hobby for a long time. HO/00 really needs space and N is too small. Hornby is currently trying to bring an alternative gauge onto the market, which can attract new people to the hobby.
I like 3D printing. I like electronics. I don’t have much of an interest in model trains. Yet here I am, watching yet another video, newly subscribed and wanting in. This guy is like the Brian Cox of trains.
There are more than 3 locomotives, numerous liveries and variants on the 3 you mentioned mentioned , as for rolling stock, 3 different types of coaches and liveries, also rolling stock, lots of stuff for different era’s. We have the hst coming very soon. They have the scenic items to get you going as well. I do agree with you in regards heljan, Hornby really messed that up, so many prototypes to do, losing the 31 really would make no difference.
I ran a second hand model train shop in Central London for 21 years and if I had a quid for every customer who said "I wish Hornby would produce TT gauge" I would be a very rich man. But saying this and actually buying the stuff when produced is another matter as seems to be the case. Hornby when attending exhibitions probably had the same comments from customers and believed it. But also the prices, I know I am a little out of touch now but the cost of one wagon is crazy, surely that must put people off. By the way Sam love your well presented videos, very clear, well done.
People lie but money doesn't.
Yes, hardly cheap!
Where was your Shop… Tony.
I was "Wheels of Steel" situated in Grays Antique Market just off Oxford Street and 1 minutes walk from Bond Street tube station. I was there for 21 years selling all makes and gauges of secondhand model trains. Could do no wrong, non stop buying and selling, a gold mine while it lasted. Then the last few years it just dwindled with old customers dying off, business guys not being sent to London (they would pop in to me on their way home and spend a few quid). Advertised regularly in Railway Modeller, etc., but just died off. Was there till end of 2016. Don't think there is a model shop now in Central London.
@@railracerI was one of your customers many years ago
If Hornby wanted to make a really good go at TT they should have kept the Thomas license and lauched it in TT
i don’t think they had a choice 💀
Watch Bachmann pick up a TT license for Thomas and Friends.
trouble is they probably lost the license in the first place because they wouldn't update the models.
One thing I have heard is that the reason they keep changing Thomas models brands (Take and Play etc) was to keep the faces looking more like the new style. Hornby never really changed the Thomas models up until the last release where Thomas got his footplate painted.
So if Hornby acquired the TT license for Thomas, they would have to make the models essentially exclusive for Thomas characters or have some bizarre models as "industrial tank engine of obscure origin".
And Bachman have N Scale Thomas anyway.
Bachmann got Thomas licence after ending with Hornby.
@@rodimussupreme2329 They don’t need a license for TT, it’s nothing exclusive to Hornby, the question is one of if it’d sell well, HO/OO and N are both big markets, G not so much, but they still sell G scale Thomas stuff, so it must sell well, with TT only recently making a comeback Bachmann would need to develop all new toolings, not to mention it might not be what people want, most Thomas modellers I’ve seen model OO/HO, N, G or O, all markets which have had T&F ready-to-run models for donkey’s years (OO/HO by Hornby and Bachmann, N by Bachmann and Tomix, O by Lionel, and G by Bachmann), so would they want to make the move to TT?
As person from Germany i will kindly mention that TT is on the go especially in eastern Germany ( and eastern Europe also). Hornby is promoting their TT program in German Internet shops.
TT seems to be doing well in the DACH/Eastern Europe regions, with PIKO alone having close to 100 locos in their lineup.
Wie viel Deutsche Sammler will Britisch TT kaufen? Kann mir nicht viel vorstellen. Ich habe Hornby TT nie in deutschen Modellbahn Laden gesehen.
@@jonathanwebb8307Indeed. I ended up practically having to apologise for being English because of the looks I got regarding Hornby whenever I took my nephews to model shops in Hamburg. From as soon as they could crawl (2004ish) and every one of the following two decades.
Verdammte Hornby!
@@jonathanwebb8307 modellbahnshop-lippe, modellbahn-voigt etc.
I am really impressed with the TT120 locomotives and rollingstock that I have so far. It's a great scale to work in. Looking forward to what Hornby announce in April.
Bankruptcy?
Yeah absolutely - the models themselves have been excellent - I hope they continue too!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains looking forward to the next review! Will you do the HST?
I have come into model railways because of TT120, buying the Easterner set in October 2022. The size is right and I am happy to wait as the range develops. I have the Duchess class and HST on pre-order . I have spent hundreds of pounds on base boards, NCE Powercab DCC controller, track, buildings, signals, scenery. I can run a loco and five/six coaches in a simialr length Running a loco and three coaches in 00 and have a longer run of track. if Hornby doesn't keep the British models going, I will buy european models and run a continental model railway. As someone new to the hobby, I have been amazed at how may people are so anti-TT120. what does it matter to them?? I would not expect many, if any one who invested lots of money in N or OO to swap over to what is untried scale launch. I have other hobbies and I want a low key model railway to enjoy. A few locos that I like, running at the same time. steam and diesel together. with UA-cam videos bemoaning the death of model railwaying, patience and support for a new endeavour is what is needed. In my humble opinion (but then, I am only a 50 something, looking start a pleasurable hobby).
I suspect that few people are 'anti TT:120', rather you are correct that few people wants to start from scratch in a new scale, whether TT:120 can sustain itself on new entrants to the hobby is the crux of the matter.
The problem is, that we can't all afford "hundreds of pounds" for our hobby? Especially with the added cost of DCC? A "basic" set is what most children want?
TT:120 has brought me back in to the hobby. Absolutely love the scale !
I wonder if this was an idea of Simon Kohler’s which he managed to persuade Hornby management to invest in? Now he and Montana have left, the PlayTrains range has since been dropped. Will TT:120 go the same way, despite the investment by both Hornby and those who bought it?
From Roger
They should have invested in better supporting N gauge, which is very badly served by the producers.
I just happened to think of something. You currently have a VERY unique opportunity here. As TT:120 is still in its infancy, you have a chance to collect EVERY MODEL produced in this scale and be able to also REVIEW every TT:120 scale model. With as much of a following as your channel has, it could help to boost the exposure this scale gets and perhaps even HELP Hornby in this venture!
Good point. But only possible from Hornby.
It would be very difficult and expensive to track down and purchase all the HP products TT 120 range they made from about 1946 to 1964, to give just one other maker of TT120.
true, though I didn't know they made TT120 that long ago. I just meant the newer ones. But thanks for pointing that out!@@johnd8892
Hi Sam. It’s not uncommon for you to take some heat for your views, and usually I find I tend to agree. However here, I hope you don’t mind, but some of the analysis is questionable. From your own survey 6% of your viewers are brand new to the hobby because of TT120. Is there anything you can think of in the last 25 years that has INCREASED the hobby base in that way? In addition, at the start there wa as huge fuss over TT120 cannibalising sales of 00. But Hornby felt that unlikely, and only 2% have switched. Further the Peco and Hornby wagons are not actually the same - very similar I grant you, but a different length of wheelbase entirely. The aim of TT120 needs to be seen in its broadest perspective - to grow the hobby. It is not so much about establishing another new scale, nor about tearing down the hybrid of British 00 or even N. It is about widening the hobby for new blood. It is doing that. Even the move to retailers - they were hammered at the start for not doing that. And now they are criticised for doing it? Whereas they maintained that it was unsuitable to bring to retailers and expect them to invest in an unproven scale, so Hornby did that part. Now that they can show it sells, retailers are happier to take a selection. It’s NOT meant to take over the hobby, or replace OO. It is meant to grow the hobby. Having said all that - thanks for continuing to cover it. Also I agree the models themselves are largely very good. And I also agree that I’d love it if they could have somehow had a mega launch of a dozen locos and stock!
@gregmacdonald927 - well said! I agree with everything you've put there! Sam is concentrating on the 88% of respondents that aren't interested in TT:120 while ignoring the 11% that are actually modelling in the scale - 11% is a much higher than I would have expected. Alao, another thing about Sam's criticism of opening up TT:120 to retailers is that this was always in Hornby's plans - there is a early TT Talk video where Simon Kohler actually states that once the scale is established then Hornby would begin to sell TT:120 via retailers.
to be honest, n guage seems more appealing to me than tt120. today i went to a model exhibition and there was not 1 tt120 layout and there were at least 5 n guage.
TT is too new is the problem, you need to be part of that early adopter crowd to get into it, in time (assuming it doesn't flop) it should be fine. That said, looking at a train show I was planning on taking my kid to... until the little booger said he didn't want to go... there are 3 O layouts, 2 G, and 1 N, On30, Z, S and a Lego setup, now I know HO scale isn't dead but that's kind of what I'm into so for it to not have a layout kind of bums me out, although the reality is the clubs that usually do the HO setups have the same setups for every train show in the area so I've already seen them.
Gresley Pacifics and Mk1 coaches, and/or an 08 with tank wagons, really don't excite the imagination - and, in any case, Hornby's TT120 track is far too sharply curved. The A4 and two coaches remind me of the early Hornby-Dublo 3-rail system...
For me at least, tabletop scale appears too big. N scale seems much better at avoiding goofy tail-chasing trains on a confined layout.
@@ianjeffery6744 Peco offers TT flex-track for those interested in creating different geometry.
@B tt is the underloved child of the train model world - during it's inception it was only really used in GB and the Warsaw Pact countries thanks to manufacturers like Tillig. Before the Hornby relaunch last year the scale was only really alive in Russia and Eastern Germany.
The Hornby TT layout at Model Rail Scotland today had a Scotsman and a Valenta HST. The sound fitted Valenta HST sounded superb. I was really impressed. It would be a shame if TT failed.
These HSTs are imminent . But I really want a 37 and 47 before I consider it - a Met Camm 101 would be good too
Honestly, they should have done N scale and competed with Graham Farish.
If they had provided a cheaper way into n scale, even if it meant a reduction in detail as with railroad, I would have shaken their collective hand off for it.
Pretty pointless given Farish and Bachmann have it pretty sown up with much bigger resources.
That would have been interesting! I wonder/assume if they picked TT because it wasn't already being tapped by their competition here in the UK though,
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@ianhudson2193 funny you say that: thats exactly why märklin never entered the N market and made Z instead. They didn't want to become just another manufacturer of N.
And what would they make in N? More of the same naff? N in Britain is always on the periphery, realistically there's not much room there.
A scale Hornby could possibly have looked at could've been S. Not so space consuming as 0. More mass and feel than 00: that more for your money feel. And if they'd made it as a process of larger 00 with its railway layout connotations, rather than a small 0 with its hyper detailed, expensive, and more adult enthusiast connotations
I tried N yonks back. Great if the scenery through which trains run floats your boat and OK for modern outline, but tbh, N gauge steam outline has never impressed me.
Its a case of go big or go home, you have to have a large range to start off or not bother unless you have other manufacturers adding to it.
That's it, they seem to still think it's the 70's. It doesn't matter so much that they're from just one manufacturer, but you need a decent range so you can build a representative collection to run a layout with. Having an just express loco and a shunter doesn't cut it. That's a train set, not a model railway.
So - don't model duplicates as spoilers, you mean?
@@blatherskite9601 That too, yes.
A great example is 009, there are several manufacturers making great narrow gauge models, which are many times sold out within weeks or even before launch.
same as Hornby's TT range, then, that's one reason for the delays in more locos, the fact that demand exceeded production and they had to use some of the pre booked slots to make more of the original range.@@darreno9874
I've moved to TT 120 and am really pleased as the reduction in space required has transformed what I can now achieve with my new layout. Now I no longer have to climb under baseboards which is great at 78 years old. Also TT 120 is very popular here on the continent, a fact
or I think you omitted from your review. The locos, rolling stock and trackwork available are superb..e.g. the Roco electric turntable and items such as the ICE, although this latter item has been blown away in my view with the delivery in the past few days of the truly magnificent Hornby TT 125 in Intercity livery. I should also add that Hornby TT 120 locos and rolling stock prices compare favourably with Continental counterparts.
Good topic. I don’t think this is as big a gamble as it may seem. Hornby owns Arnold, and I think that if things were to go south for Hornby, they can get Arnold to continue production in TT 120. I think the key here is the scale. I have recently purchased a few of Arnold’s container wagons in TT scale, and they match perfectly with my Hornby TT. Now that Roco and Piko are starting to produce TT120, along side established companies like Tillig, this scale will grow. Just think, it will now be possible to run British locomotives and rolling stock along side those from Europe. Looking forward to one day being able to run my model train from Beijing to London. Cheers!
I was at a large West Riding model shop the other week where I saw some TT:120 models in the flesh for the first time, and was very impressed by the detail and the general feel of the scale. Chatting to the fella behind the counter he said the range had been an excellent seller.
Once they bring out a grouping era 0-6-0 tank or small goods tender engine I'll buy a bit and set up an inglenook.
New to the hobby thanks to Hornby introducing TT. Loving the hobby and especially this gauge - I was never surveyed by Sam about this. Perhaps his youth prevents him being able to see the bigger picture. But as always we're all entitled to our subjective opinions. Sam just beware you influence others, so try to be a little more balanced when offering your thoughts.
I feel like you are not being impartial and have already made up your mind about TT. I love TT and it will only grow!
30 years ago everyone said that TT would die in Germany. We only had one major manufacturer left. Today TT is doing better here than ever before.
I think that its a good middle of the road for people who just want a table top oval layout without having to forkout a 6x4 board for a 00 layout.
I really want TT to succeed, it’s always been my dream to build a layout but space is one of the biggest issues. TT makes the hobby more accessible to someone like me
You make some interesting points Sam. I agree about the quality of the models, and the mistake, in my view, about Hornby's attitude to other manufacturers. However I think your reading of your survey is flawed. To me, for 12% of Sam's Trains viewers to be now modelling TT, after just one year, is a great achievement. Will you still think it a mistake by Hornby, if 18-20% of your viewers are TT modellers this time next year. For me it is TT or nothing in my hobby.
The quality seems to be there with the small handful of TT models Hornby have produced so far. If these new models that are in the pipework are released on time, the same, if not higher quality needs to be there, unlike Hornby's 00 scale which can be hit and miss at times. Let's hope that TT remains that bit cheaper than 00 in order to encourage more to the hobby.
Great video as always, Sam.
A couple of times over the years I’ve collected oo gauge items to start a layout. Both times I’ve been rueing the space I needed.
I moved to the USA and this house has a 40ft basement. Plenty big enough for that oo gauge. But yet I’m going to do a TT120 which will give me more
of a space for prototypical
length trains.
I applaud Hornby for trying to invigorate the hobby. I believe they can’t collude with
companies to offer a broader range for competition purposes. I’m sure they are doing the best they can given the economic landscape.
If you want to start in tt120 then there’s not many that can buy all the rolling stock all at once anyway. So get building your layout and buy when you can afford. That’s what I’m doing.
You're presenting a particular narrative with those poll results that doesn't feel entirely grounded. Yes, 88% are choosing to stick with their established scale. It would unthinkable to expect 20-30% of existing modellers to move entirely to a new scale in 12 months. So that isn't a meaningful metric. Likewise, "only 2% choosing to switch" - I'm surprised it's as high as that. Hornby were explicit about the commercial positioning for TT - they intend to attract new people to the hobby with it. On that, according to your poll, 11% of respondents are beginning to model in TT. Add in the 2% switchers, and 13% of your 2,000 or so polled respondents are claiming to be spending their money on TT. That's more than one in eight. Yes, it's a single sample set, but they surprisingly favourable figures for Hornby. I am a regular viewer, and I recognise/understand the recent general antipathy towards Hornby's commercial model and pricing strategy (although the emotive rhetoric about "holding customers in contempt" is unnecessary and beneath this channel's long established journalistic standards). But let's be careful not to fall into confirmation bias by selectively highlighting a handful of metrics in a set of results that is otherwise (surprisingly) favourable.
Yeah that’s fair to say - the results are definitely up for interpretation! They don’t look that positive to me, but maybe those stats are more impressive than I thought. What do you mean about holding customers in contempt? I don’t think I made that point in this video, unless I did?
For quite a while, the train sets at around £170 were always out of stock but you could still buy the contents of the sets separately from Hornby but that cost around £300 so that would have put many people off.
Yeah - that's why they made those bundles, to tide them over until the sets came back into stock!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
sets have always been cheaper than buying separately in whatever scale, it's the way things have always been. So your point is?
@thekingdomofostroviainhoe3299 they ment what they wrote that the lack of available sets has resulted in a slower up take of tt, youtube is not twitter haters are less welcome in the comments maybe re read comments before you make an x (twitter) style comment have a nice day😊
I purchased the very first set at launch and although it had some teething issues, overall I was impressed. As a OO collector/modeller the TT went into a box and not used UNTIL last week. Something was very appealing about being able to sit at the dining room table and watch some trains go round. Will I invest heavily into it? Probably not. But I will certainly get a few locos for nights where I just want to sit in the main room.
I am going to build my first lay out ever and it will be in TT120, with HM7000 and sound !
Thanks Sam, your hype "eating" video definitely helping the scale. I guess views are really good on such videos...
I am glad that Peco is not as scared as Heljan and have released their TT products, they are great.
Oxford models joined in as well.
I wish Hornby would also produce H0 rolling stock. OO-models seem rather oversized on my H0-layout. Lima had a few British models in H0-scale, I have a few of them, and their size is great.
Yes, this is right, Erik! OO is strange for us continental guys somehow! 😉
And don't forget Jouef used to produce British outline in HO.
@@valentinsn-ostalgiemodellbahnCause at the time HO for British meant certain details couldn't produce well at that scale so they made the model scaled slightly bigger making OO gauge. The evidence that they to keep it at simliar scales is that most 00 gauge locomotive nowadays can use HO scale tracks with almost no issues. Edit Motors couldn't be sized down enough for British models was the main reason for the change of scale.
Sorry wrong info. Hornby owns Rivarossi.
All the attempts to sell British outline HO models failed and soon stopped production.
Lima had massive success once they went OO for UK outline instead of HO.
Fleischman was another unsuccessful UK HO range with just their Warship locomotive and Bullied coaches before they gave up.
The Marklin HO Warship was even more of a disaster. So much wrong with their current A3.
You're only looking at Hornby... Spread your wings further afield. Tillig and Piko make loads of TT scale stuff for the European market. 🇪🇺
But how much of what's out there is compatible with what Hornby is making or for trains in the UK exclusively? Also, he mentioned that Peco makes track and cars for TT.
@@AlcoLoco251 Maybe they should talk to TT manufactures on the continent to build up the TT market in UK. There were always such plans, including US market, but all failed exactly because the major modelrailway manufactures blocked the initiatives everywhere.
Hornby purchased dozens of continental manufacturers with knowledge with experience, why they did not discuss these facts internally?
Nobody knows in the Hornby corporation the history of the last 2-3 decades, not to mention the technical solutions what is today common, a standard in model production? Even in TT! Look at the latest PIKO TT models. Different world. Roco also turned back to TT when they purchased the whole product line of Kühn.
So what. British modellers are not going to flock to buy new Euro prototypes otherwise they would already be into HO or N.
Eastern European market mostly. (Uk is still a part of Europe just not the EU, don't make that mistake).
Big market especially in Eastern Germany
N and OO is already burning up my dad's cash, my family will kill me if I get into a new scale. 🤣
Modelrailroading is the best money pit!
haha...the holy trinity for train cash burn.....
If I were to start modelling UK, TT would be my first call. NN and 00 are a no-go for me due to scale-gauge discrepancy.
I would too.
As a long term OO modeller, TT:120 has zero attraction. Still it only matters that there are enough other modellers who like TT:120. If so my opinion doesn't matter.
I think that you have missed one aspect in your TT review, and that is that it's not a totally new scale starting at 0 customer or support base. Well, it is new in England, but it's already a well estabilished scale around central Europe (Germany, Poland, Czechia, etc.). In this area the king scale is H0 (1:87), but TT is the second (at least in my country), beating even the N scale. So there is a lot of modellers that are already hooked to the TT. They are just not from Britain. Of couse, because they are not british, they would less likely buy the models of british trains, but still it's at least some initial base that can be helping on the beginning. This foreign base can be attracted by the famous and well known locos like the Flying Scotsman, Mallard, HST, and couple more, that are famous and recognizable abroad. I by myself am a TT modeller collecting TT trains for about 15-20 years or so. And I can tell you that the locos and coaches that Hornby is releasing now were missing in my collection for long, and there was no chance to get them at all, because nobody was ever making them (except few from Triang which is ... very outdated). I have bought the A1, A3, A4, have preordered the Coronation, HST, and I am thinking also about the Class 50 (as it's the only classical diesel in range at the moment), and I'd definitely go also into Deltic and Peak if Hornby would make them. Just because they are such world-known icons (or at least good enough representatives). And that's the boost and support the Hornby can be building on at the beginning before the TT market in Britain itself is established properly. I think, that Hornby is getting a lot of orders from abroad because they just filled the gap on the already existing TT market in global. But this support boost from abroad will be only temporary until it gets saturated. We will buy some iconic locos, because they are so iconic and famous, but the British Railways is not our main interest in the end. This may still give Hornby some time to expand the range to become more attractive also for the british customers as well. It's a question though, whether it will give time long enough.
well said, I don't understand why Sam completely ignored that aspect in his video, unless it didn't suit his "agenda".
@@thekingdomofostroviainhoe3299 I don't think Sam has some "agenda". It was probably just an overlook. Sam is british and its natural he sees the scale from his local perspective. It's easy to forget there is a world outside where things may be different ;-)
@@karei2 Almost like an American, eh? 😃😃😃😃
This is a CLASS post. Great explanation, lots of details. I model in T-gauge, but I have noticed a good deal of TT on Shapeways. Is that not a source of locos, and passenger/freight, for you?
@@Demun1649 Sure, 3D prints can be an option. You just get the chassis, and its up to you to finish the surface, paint it, get somehow the decals, and most importantly deal somehow with the drive for a loco. Some prefer to just buy a finished model from a manufacturer instead :-)
I mean TT has been around for a long long time but there's a reason it was never really popular back in the day and it's the same reason it isn't working now, it's trying to fill a gap in the market that didn't really exist.
Especially as the old TT was 3mm scale, where this one is just 2.5mm, so isn't _really_ much bigger than N.😕
@@michael32A maybe for UK, I don't know. In the rest of the world TT has always been 1:120
Outside Eastern Europe, TT had gone down in the 1970s when you can have the same quality with N scale, with smaller models. And people who wants to build and fiddle with their models have already OO/HO to do that, with more convenience due to the larger size.
TT is interesting if you want to model a GDR layout set in the 1950s to the 1980s. I seriously doubt it will catch on UK market.
@@OlivierGabin I'm sorry you are wrong, if you think, that today you can built in TT only an Eastern German Layout Today there is a big range in TT in Germany including models of Western Germany and todays modern locos and wagons. A lot of us model railway fans from Germany still waiting for the class 77 from Hornby in TT : 120. But we also have models from Arnold, Piko, Roco (including Kühn), Tillig and smaller firms like Beckmann, Hädl, Kunze, Saxonia, Schirmer and not to forget manufacturer in Czeck Republik like MTB and Igra.
I share absolutely Sam's opinion that it had be better if other manufacturers had also startet with TT in Great Britain.
All problems in the 1960s with TT in Western Europe (ROKAL) and Great Britain (Tri-ang) had the same reason: only one firm never can fulfill the dreams of the model railroad fans. After falling the Wall 1989 in Germany we had the same problem again. Tillig has been the only manufacturer. And long, long time the survival of TT in Germany hung by a thread. But luckily Kühn, Piko and Roco started some years later with TT. Today we have a relatively constant TT-Marked, while H0 and N having a lot of problems concerning the aging of model railroaders. TT model railroader are on average 10 years younger.
I guess the logic was that TT is established in Eastern Europe so it was not a shot in the dark completely.
we sell used European and Japanese models on ebay, and there has been a notable increase in demand for TT120 stuff from Europe (where its a much more active scale)
I really think that Hornby missed a trick by not investing in an oo9 range. There is already a massive interest in that scale, without having to worry too much about track development. The scale already has a lot of options in terms of locomotives and livery, from the festineog locos to Ravensglass and eskdale. Plus they would have the opportunity to go for a few more custom and random designs and not have to fret too much about the backlash like the Beatles locomotive
Agreed, i think oo9 is great but i would like to see some proper competition because the prices are ridiculously high. Even the old kits are silly prices because there isnt anyone else making them.
Narrow gauge in TT would be awesome.Tywyn Wharf / Tallyllyn.
While 009, my prefered scale, would be nice, some 016.5 locos and rolling stock would make more sense as they could use existing track and even chassis. Imagine the number of Festiniog sets, Prince, two Bug Boxes and an oval of track you could sell in Portmadog?
Love TT 120, if I was starting out , I would go TT 120. I use it on my OO layout as a backdrop in the hills, a bit of forced perspective. It’s quite big in Europe, and as High fell has done, the continental locos look good on a UK layout. I think Hornby are on a winner.
Hornby's biggest mistake was launching TT as something new, ignoring that they already make a whole TT range of models under their Arnold label, and ignoring that there is a lot of support from a whole range of other manufacturers on the continent. This allowed commentators like you to talk down the range and to talk down the scale. Hornby could also have made more of the point that the gauge was correct for the scale, but that would have been to point out what an ugly chimera OO is.
Although its only ever going to be niche, there is enough demand for European outline TT for 7 companies to make it: Kres, MTB, Tillig, Piko, Roco, and Hornby Arnold.
Piko traditionally have a significant amount of east European locos in their range some of which sell in small volumes. They do it because they can helped by having their own large factory in China. Owner Dr. René F. Wilfer would certainly be interested in making British outline TT if the market was already established.
As far as I can tell Hornby have sold more TT120 than expected so commissioned extra production of the already launched stuff. This and other factors outside of Hornby's control have slowed down new releases although Hornby already had the HST in their warehouse as Sam was making this video! The forthcoming 9F looks good.
No, great decision. The train sets have done really well. I still want to get one when funds allow! There needs to be more rolling stock like coaches/wagons for the locos being made thus far.
Thanks for sharing! Hopefully it can survive long enough to grow!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
'The train sets have done really well' how do you know?
@@mytinplaterailway financial reports. Available on the internet. Go look it up.
@@mytinplaterailway They've sold out repeatedly. Currently, the Easterner train set (DC and DCC) is sold out. The Scotsman set has also sold out multiple times. Hornby was left scrambling to create starter bundles in order to keep TT on the shelves. And those bundles subsequently sold out too.
That Sir, is a good reply.@@genericyoutubeuser3828
I’m getting into British modeling for the first time and I considered starting with TT. The reason I didn’t go with it is exactly what you listed: too little variety. Maybe I should go with it though. It’s going to be a long time before I can amass a collection of trains, so I could keep pace with Hornby’s release of new things.😂
17:25 - Starting with the A4 and A3 meant they only needed to develope 1 chassis and tender, then just plonk a different body on the loco': 2 new models (albeit ones that are too similar) for the price of about 1.3!😉
I was surprised they didn't market half a dozen different liveried class 66's
I'm one of those who's decided to model TT alongside 00 and N. I quite like the scale, and if I was starting from scratch in my attic I'd definitely be considering TT instead of 00 (N is just a little too small for my eyes in the attic!) I agree that smaller locos (a Jinty, 45xx or J72 for example) etc would be a good idea, and definitely something that isn't LNER (I'd like a Black 5, but then I would...). If I was Hornby, I'd be targeting the train set market more heavily with TT.
Homes are getting smaller, N isn't often available in toy shops or high street catalogues, many outside the hobby aren't really aware of anyone other than Hornby. I've overheard a few parents telling kids they haven't got room for a train set, and if Hornby pushed the idea that TT was a smaller but just as usable alternative, and concentrated on TT sets for Christmas presents rather than 00, they might kick start the scale.
They could also make more of the fact that for those with smaller houses and older eyes TT would fit better and be more visible than N.
TT120 was a massive company killing mistake. The product was rushed to market and there were lots of videos on UA-cam showing it struggling to run smoothly unless it was set up as DCC or better said like this 'D$$'. The biggest problem apart from lack of variety is the cost of TT120. Honestly you would be far better off getting into N Scale. Yes Sam Hornby is in real trouble, their share price is looking more like The Big Short. Who's going to buy in before it hits $0. Just on the idea of 'direct to consumer' ideas, back in 2014 Mattle attempted to do this with Thomas Wooden Railway, as history tells it failed, then came a dumbed down TWR called Thomas wood. It failed and now we have a reworking of TWR thats set at a maxxed out price. Anyway well done explaining all the failings of Hornby, you can never keep your eyes off a train wreck.
TO THIS DAY: there is no supplier of genuine N SCALE trackwork, which is why I quit that size some 50+ years ago. From back in 1968, I still have several 3 foot lengths of code 40 True N SCALE Kemtrack amde by Kemtron, but switches etc. were never produced. I met Levon Kemalyon in 1971 and worked at Kemtron in tooling for a bit in the mid 1970's. Simply put, N scale are toys. Aside from "Microtrains" everything is bulky and oversized.
@@paullubliner6221 You need to look into Kato N scale stuff. Made in Japan and incredibly awesome.
I have to say I think your reviews are brilliant Sam.
One thing I would say that wasn’t known when you posted this video is that the HST is now available and should be hitting buyers homes tomorrow (me included 😬)
I also believe the Duchess and Class 50 are very close to arrival. If that happens then the loco stock will have doubled in a couple of months.
The 66 will arrive in Summer taking the number of locos to 7. Ok that’s not an amazing number but not bad and probably more than Triang made in the same timeframe in the 60s.
If we get a couple of nice surprises in the April unveiling- Castle Class, Small steam 0-6-0 etc then we could be at 10 locos quite soon.
I’ll consider that not too bad in say two yrs
I would say this....anyone thinking of going in to TT, don't let Sam put you off. It really is a fantastic scale of great quality, with a dozen loco's available at present and more on the way. TT brought me back in to the hobby after years of OO neglect. Just loving it ! :)
TT is a very small market in a world dominated by N, O, and HO/OO. I get it fills that gap between HO and N, but it's been slow to catch on in the states.
They do say it's pretty popular in Europe - but there needs to be a lot more product before it's appealing to the UK market!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Do you really not know about Tillig offer? They alone have 28 steam, 25+ diesel (excluding beginner sets), and 55 electric locos in their shop. There is nothing for the UK modeller, but I thought it would be at least fair to mention that this scale is doing just fine in Europe.
@@SamsTrains Hst and class 50 are due soon
@@brutusduran8592 Americans typically have larger homes than those in the UK. Larger than what they actually need in my opinion. HO gauge is very popular here and it's not likely that TT will make a dent in the market.
World domination by OO? Don’t you mean the UK?
I am disappointed that you seem to show your OO bias by not doing an equal comparison with available N gauge kit.
Some of us Sam do not have an extra room or floor to set up a train set layout. Or for that matter choose to buy a hundred toy locomotives for their collection. Most of us can barely provide enough space for a 4'x 6' table layout and choose to buy less than six toy locomotives. Frankly I am surprised Hornby has never adopted N scale toy trains before, and wonder why it took so long to produce TT-120 scale trains. And no we didn't expect a smaller train model to cost less, usually smaller scales costs MORE...
The problem is Hornby is a joke.
I would have liked something GWR. I bet Southern and Midland people feel the same. I'm currently in OO The Bachmann GWR set in N you recently reviewed looks tempting. I'm not holding my breath for future models. I've had a pre order with them since dinosaurs roamed the earth. Cheers Paul.
I started with TT about 50 years ago as a child, German makers. In my thirties I switched to OO and never looked back.
Love my TT layout, its a great scale. My local model shop say they are selling loads so not sure its as gloom and doom as you say
Agreed, a model shop near me has now started to stock TT.
Love TT 120. It is a fabulous scale and it has restarted my interest in making a model railway after several decades. I've already ordered a lot of stock and planning to start on that layout this year.
Really looking forward to some more steam releases especially GWR/WR and some green 1960s era diesels.
Fingers crossed Hornby makes a success of this. You're right about Hornby announcing the exact same locos as Heljan; really stupid and presumably designed to put Heljan off. Hornby achieved their aim, but at what cost?
Don’t forget that TT 120 is compatible with European TT, same scale. Hornby already have a common parts bucket and track system from their Arnold Range, and opportunities exist to make ferry and Eurostar models for both ranges. A TT 120 USA tank as well, and several other models ran in Europe, and indeed, in some cases, still do, Class 20, 56, 86, 87, 08, 77, 76.
This would have been the time to re-release British HO.
My opinion too. There is zero technical reasons nowadays to not go this way. And that would have solve the problem of the discrepancies in the Hornby OO range, plus getting an occasion to to a budget range of models.
@@OlivierGabinPeople would be able to use their existing track and layout and Hornby would have an international market with HO ferry vans and channel tunnel stock. Not to mention all the British locos exported to Europe in recent decades. No brainer if you ask me.
@@OlivierGabinHornby probably still have the Lima HO British moulds and maybe the Jouef ones too. These could be retooled to modern standards.
British HO should have been mainstream over 40 years ago, 00 should have died out with Dublo. Triang now current Hornby should have started HO as by the time they got going there was no excuse not too.
@@RobA500they even made their Series 6 track to HO specs making OO even more narrow gauge looking than it did with Super 4 track.
I am happy to model in TT. The space demands of OO are too great. I recognise a new scale has to start somewhere. But as Hornby advertised the benefit of a shelf top layout the biggest missing model is a steam tank engine for end to end running and shunting. For new modellers TT is a project so we are prepared to wait for the range to develop. The real question is the future of OO. If the space requirement deters new entrants then TT has to be a long term project. But over commit to TT might risk Hornby's viability to supply other scales. New entrants such as Accurascale also threaten the dominance of Hornby in OO, which is now a very competitive market. So Hornby's future in OO could depend on the success of TT120.
Thanks for your positive reviews of the TT project so far. I think there has been a sceptical response to TT from the established community and some retailers. I think your survey reflects this. The TT community is strong and growing in my view. And reflects the quality of the product.
I went into TT because when it was coming out I was planning a new N-gauge & I loved the new potential of the scale. I'm not worried with so little product been out as more is coming like the class 43 HST's , 66's , 50 's & the Coronation's.
Don't hold your breath. Nice optimism but....
@@jamescollins3647 The Class 43s are literally in England, being prepared for shipment. The Class 50s are confirmed to be in production. There's no risk.
This hobby is full of the most miserable defeatist bastards. Don't let them grind you down!
Reviews on a brand new scale after 12 months by someone who's never run so much as a burger van and works out of his attic aren't credible beyond the pub-bore logic of those who watch life go by and have all the answers.
Well for what it's worth I have put my money where my mouth is & have a good deal of stuff coming from Hornby TT. This is a brand new scale coming to the british outline models market , it is going to take time for it to establish itself. My only complaint so far is not with Hornby but with Heljan who pulled out of the TT market when they saw Hornby coming out with models they were going to make as well, imo Heljan should have gone with with the lesser known prototype & other diesels that got them started in the OO market as well .But what do I know .@@chairmakerPete
@@chairmakerPete Upset you has he? Arhh bless.
As a nooby noobster I was struggling to decide whether to go N gauge or OO so for me TT120 seems to be the ideal compromise. OO gauge has almost unlimited choice of everything and for most people that would be fantastic but I actually find it a bit mind boggling, overwhelming and confusing. There is also the awkward OO/HO scale variation and the chunky oddscale bits of N gauge that can't physically be made to correct scale because it is so small. TT120 is a standard scale all over. Also, for me the limitations of what is available TT120 is actually a benefit in a strange way and I feel I can get into this at ground level and grow with it. I daresay that when I get deeper into it I will find that what is available is very limited but for now it's ideal.
Very interesting commentary. I don't currently have a layout, but I had lots of Hornby OO when I was a kid. I never really had enough space for it, and if I build a layout in future, TT really does look perfect. The killer feature for me is the accurate scale:gauge ratio, as well as the ideal size of the models, making the most of space without being as fiddly as N.
I think in all honesty you'd be brave to be an early adopter - it could still go pear-shaped, and the whole thing feels like it was the vision of a man who has now left the company.
That said, I think there's exciting things to come. I was at Model Rail Scotland at the weekend, and there was a TT demo layout on the Hornby stand. There was a blue and grey HST running on it, and it looked superb. I'd certainly fancy one of those.
Hi Sam, Interesting video but I also think there are a few things you haven't considered.
1) TT120 isn't just a British scale like OO or N gauge it has world wide appeal opening up potentially a much bigger market as it's already popular in the US, Europe and Japan. I would expect the class 66 in particular to be popular in Europe as it's a locomotive that operates there in the real world.
2) Currently Hornby have pretty much a monopoly here of TT, unlike with OO and N gauge where they're competing with both other manufacturers and a flourishing secondhand market and thus missing out on a lot of sales. For instance I buy the majority of my OO models secondhand, so whilst the TT market maybe relatively small at present Hornby have almost all of it rather than only a piece.
3) The release of a good range of locos in TT IS an issue I agree. However Hornby have been unfortunate there in that production in China has been severely hit by covid shut downs and also shortages of some crucial materials - which is outside Horby's control and delayed new models being released. There is also a limited number of factories producing models and Hornby have to compete with other manufacturers to place their orders. This limits how many different models can be produced.
4) I think TT was mainly aimed at getting more people into the hobby by making it both more practical and cheaper than OO. The reality is the majority of OO modellers are getting on and won't be around too much longer and there aren't enough young modellers coming into the hobby to replace them. What happens to Hornby then?
This means sticking just with OO isn't a viable option. Hornby needed to try something to firstly make the hobby more attractive to new comers to the hobby and secondly tap into the international market not just the GB one.
Whether it will be a success is the question and I'm not sure how much Hornby have tried to market it outside the UK or to people outside the hobby.
They really need to start marketing in places like the US, Europe and Japan where TT is already popular, especially the Flying Scotsman and Mallard which are famous throughout the world.
To bring it to the attention of potential new comers it needs to be marketed in places where those not already in the hobby will see it. e.g Christmas ads on TV and social media, have it stocked in Supermarkets and toyshops, etc.
I am from the continent and I think most us were quite excited when Hornby announced to join the TT community. It is not a big one ( in comparison to H0 or N) but we have few excellent manufacturers and the overall quality is quite high. I was amoung the first ones who purchased the wonderfull Pullman coaches. Here Hornby did an excellent job.
Unfortunatelly on the steam locomotives they made a huge mistake. They simple copied their 00 scale model, what is far away from the quality standards in today’s TT world. In TT the manufacturers many decades ago solved the problem with a 4-6-2 wheel arrangement, Hornby did not ( wheater in 00 nor in TT). They should just study the TT models in their corporation (Arnold TT). This model for us is far away from the expected quality or model fidelity. I know for you the priority is mostly on painting and livery, on the continent for is also important the technical accuracy and also the internal construction like drive chain, flywheels, wheel arrangement etc. Here Hornby’s solutions are not up to date.😮
Also the selection of diesels is not very lucky. Those huge modern 6 axle locomotives do not fit exactly the age of the offered wonderfull small freigth wagons and probably not the first TT layouts in UK. Sam you are right, smaller steam and diesel locomotives would fit much better the market and create more business. I hope Hornby revises their TT plans for the future and will offer up to date models also for us, outside of UK.
I hope Hornby offers some up to date models for people IN the UK.... If you want to attract new younger modellers you need to offer the sort of trains you can see on the railways today. TT120 has space for big mainline modern image layouts - that's where the focus should be, not on replicating stuff that already exists in larger or smaller scales.
Look at Pete Waterman's exhibition layouts - big modern prototypes. He might prefer 7mm Western steam era models for his own layout - so do I - but that's not what he presents for the public. If it's to survive TT120 has to be a modern image scale to separate itself from the other scales and find its own niche. If you're cramped for space and you haven't already made use of the superb N gauge models available maybe it's not just space you're short of , it's motivation and creativity. I can't think of anything more tedious than people scratching around wanting to build a TT120 branch line and whining about not being able to get a Pannier or a Jinty. What a waste of a scale.
Finally I recall that in a Railway Modeller article a while ago Simon Kohler was reported as saying that there was no market research done prior to Hornby committing to TT120. The decision was based on instinct and years of model railway marketing experience. Really? I mean really!!!!????? Simon of course has now parted company with Hornby. Make of that what you will.
@@cathybrind2381
I fully agree with you. Problem is that the new trains are extremely long while our space is still the same. While on a real station a real high speed train from 7-9 coaches is still a short train, in TT it is more than 4 feet long just the train. Or if one wants to have a modern class 66 locomotive it is slowly longer as two
modern container wagons , that means a big powerful machine will pull 3-4 wagons and will occupy the whole station.
I hope it is a success. I haven't started in any guage yet, TT sounds just right. Hope they do collaborate.
I'm sticking with N gauge as it's my preferred gauge
Same. But for OO & 009
Me too, too much time and money invested …. And the perceived advantages of TT don’t merit a change for me ….
I'm fairly sure Sam will have to make another video in April, after Hornby's tt120 announcement which is due then. I'm looking forward to my Duchess of Atholl before the end March, it's my favorite engine of all time. If the quality is up to Flying Scotsman level, I won't be disappointed.
Yep absolutely - lots resting on the April announcements!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
I've got a feeling you're not going to want to hear Hornbys April statement...
I have a Triang TT Brittania along with six others in Four different gauges, so I’m a fan of that Class 7F as with many other modellers. I would have thought Hornby should have produced them in the TT range first ! Keep up the good work Sam.
I tend to think that TT120 is being offered as an alternative train set to other scales for newbies. A way to enter the hobby with a decent size layout in a small space. Hornby obviously does not want to compete in the N gauge market so went down the TT route. I assume the hope is that people buying the sets will develop a love of the hobby, hone their modelling skills & grow with the range. Looking on the Hornby forum they have had the added bonus of returning modellers adopting the range due to the space saving issues. I do not believe the intention was to attract droves of people from established scales. Those with established layouts will stick with them as it is costly to change & they love the detailed offerings if they have the funds or like the huge second hand market. I would envisage the TT range to be a ten year project creating a new revenue source which will help secure Hornby's future for the benefit of all modellers. Sorry for the long winded response, always check your channel & enjoy your views & reviews.
I suppose one advantage of tt120 is that we actually have a scale and gauge that harmonises with continental tt. A fantasy of mine is running uk and continental stock together, like the night sleeper
One of the reasons that TT was priced cheaper than OO was the direct sales route. This also hung Heljan out to dry. It is hard to see how this can be sustained now retailers are back in the mix. However, it is still early days as a new scale is going to need 5-10 years of sustained development to promote customer confidence in the scale. Getting the Class 66 out would help as this would also be perfect for an existing European market where Class 66 and Class 77 are commonly used. With everyone expecting it to be a flash in the pan then TT will be in an awkward place - I like the scale but I also need to maintain other scales.
Still expensive.
What isn't?@@mytinplaterailway
Biggest problem is there's no legacy TT used stock/locos on the market so you are forced to buy new all the time
Good point. You cannot start on a tight budget, because of the lack of a 2nd hand market.
The Easternblock and US has a TT market
@@meta6287I've never seen a TT model in the US.
I think that was Hornby's hope......
There is legacy TT used stock, but it's Continental outline! But as both are to the same scale and gauge it is perfectly in order to run them together. Several Heritage railways in the UK have Continental prototypes so there's your reason!
Not a mistake if it's selling well, Peco also producing track and rolling stock for 1/120, and also not having to compete with Dapol and Bachmann etc.
Peco can ditch the scenery and the rolling stock, and sell their tracks to German modellers already doing continental TT if things goes bad. their real competitor here is Tillig.
Agree there should be more introductions to maintain momentum . Clearly Hornby don’t have the manufacturing capacity for this , but I think it will come , I’ve just seen the HST and 50 which is imminent . I blame Simon Kohler for this . There should have been an 0-6-0 to accompany the A3 and A4 . For modern image I don’t understand the 50. It should have been a 37 47 and HST to get some mommentun going . However apparently sets are selling as soon as they are in stock, so I think that it’s quite successfully and has a good future . For me I’m contemplating a TT120 layout but I need a 37 47 and HST along with Blue Grey mk1s before I make the jump . I think it will happen though . I think the 66 will be later though . Again I’d question Kohlers choice of locos to establish the scal . I’d have gone HST Mk3s , 37 47 Mk1s A3 A4 tank engine , 08
Once again, Why don't you put up the money?
Hornby scuppering Heljan's attempts was when I realised I'll be waiting it out a lot longer than I imagined.
Perhaps the scale will survive (yes, I'm sure it will, it exists now), but I'm yet to be convinced Hornby will stay the distance on it.
I have OO, Tri-ang TT and N Gauge layouts.
TT is great for saving space and easier to handle than N Gauge.
Prices for Hornby TT:120 are too high I feel.
The world is still struggling post Covid. It will be interesting to see if Hornby can make TT work financially.
I was at the Glasgow model railway show today which had a lot of TT gauge with much more variety than stated here
I was also there, saw peco and hornby had a small selection, It can’t remember anything else …
The wee layout at the Hornby stand was simple, but it looked a quality product
Loved the analysis of the TT range. I wonder what caused the sudden departure of Mr Hornby and Montana?
I'm mainly O gauge coming from OO, 40 odd years ago. Bit of On30 in between (basically as expensive as O gauge). I have recently started dabbling in N. N had always been toy railways to me, the offerings now especially on the second market are really very impressive. Older locos can be easily re motored into smooth beasts, lots of spares available. Very impressed with the tender powered offerings from Grafar like the Scott, Black 5 and Jube. I have an N gauge Peak, not as impressive as my O gauge one granted ... but it doesn't need a 400 ft track to run on :-) I admire Hornbys confidence and investment in the hobby, it has attracted many new comers, but I don't see the point of a completely new scale, and the people I know who are religiously the original TT and 3mm don't seem too either (although like many O gaugers, most are in the late winter years now).
Hey Sammy you forgot to mention Peco has 8 versions of the planked wagons, now a good range of track and buildings kits. Also West Hill Wagon Works and other manufacturers. So of just grew up with clock work trains, whats available today in OO/HO and all the other scale did happen over night it all took a lot of for site.
I actually think the drip feed approach of models is a great idea. It builds anticipation and discussion. A sense of high value.
To have all at once would cheapen the brand and glut the appetite.
A model railway is a lifelong hobby. I for one are happy to wait a couple of years before the smaller steam trains come out as it will probably take me that long to build the track layout.
And if I was feeling impatient, I might buy an 08 as a stop gap. A smart move by Hornby.
Sam, the problem with your survey is this 2,000 responses will have been pretty much from folk who are already engaged in model railways. A vast majority of newbies won't have heard of you. Hornby here is targeting absokute beginners with high quality sets at a decent price point. Also they are clever with the progressive track packs thst make it easy to expand step at a time. The lack of scenic is a bit worrying, but overall we are very happy with our "Scotsman" set and add on rail packs. We have been broem away with thd detail at this scale. It's just a pity they seem intent on making enemies with competitors rather than seeking out collaboration. I'm just glad they are running a model railway empire and not a foreign country.
The short answer is, No.
The product is exemplary, the size is really likeable and speaking personally I love it.
Ok the initial range is small and perhaps a tad incoherent, but then it’s a totally new range. To quote a former Hornby employee, “Rome wasn’t built in a day!”
Having driven the Inter-City 125, I am looking forward to owning one in TT:120 and for once I can run a complete train instead of the compromise I put up with in OO.
I’m new to the hobby last year and went for TT. I love it Sam 👍
Me too, I was brought into the hobby because of TT, and am going nowhere else.
@@brutusduran8592 I agree with the above comment. Peachy TT 120s videos are great 👍
@@brutusduran8592 cheers dude
@@anthknill top man!
I wonder why did you not call Hornby and get some answers to your questions? They deserve a right of reply (although I suspect your analysis is right). I reckon Scotsman and Mallard use the same chassis, so are relatively cheap to produce.
I wonder why this gauge never took of when first introduced - then realised 00 was pushed too much. TT is an excellent size and needs more support.
Releases have been slow, but the scale just has a great feel to it.
Getting away from the most basic problem with OO - the track is the wrong scale - is a joy.
It'll remain a niche until a critical mass of rolling stock comes along, but that doesn't make it a failure - especially as they sell out everything they produce.
I personally feel that Hornby should’ve just stayed focused on their 00 range. I know it’s normal for a business to venture out to quote ‘unknown territory’ but the thing is that Hornby have an extremely stronghold in the 00 gauge market, therefore it’s extremely hard to convince existing model railway enthusiasts to buy a whole new range of models which are incompatible with their existing ones. Alot of enthusiasts nowadays don’t have the space to build a whole new layout for a whole new scale, neither do they have the budget to venture away from 00 gauge when you can get plentiful secondhand 00 gauge models which can already run on existing layouts that one might have.
Yeah I wonder if they should have done that too - I guess we'll have to see!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Hornby should have concentrated on their 00 stuff with a focus on reducing the prices while producing better quality. Example been Hornby class 56. Great model, in my opinion and probably their best diesel loco. However, I received my Cavalex class 56 a couple of weeks ago and sorry to say that blows the socks off the Hornby model for detail. Maybe controversial, but I think the Hornby model runs better. Maybe I have not run the Cavalex model in enough yet.
Good video. I got back into the model railway in January this year for the first time since late 80s. I went TT for a few reasons, I can get more track on my layout than OO. I have 3rd & 4th radius circuits with multiple sidings, if I used OO it would be a single loop and fewer sidings. Even though TT is expensive it’s still not as much as OO. Starting again from scratch on either TT or OO I still didn’t have locos and coaches for the set I wanted. OO has a few LMS locos but not any coaches (they have blue but not the LMS red), I also wanted to do an era 8 set but again I was limited to what was available. With TT LMS was due out in next few months along with coaches and era 8 coaches and the HST.
The biggest problem I have with Hornby is they do a run then let the line go, they need to keep bread and butter items in stock like popular locos and coaches and rotate less popular items. They also need to allow pre ordering of out of stock items.
As for the poll, Sir Humphrey Appleby from Yes Minister springs to mind. You can make any poll go in your favour depending on how or who you ask the question. Not saying your poll was biased at all far from it. Just bear in mind your audience, 2000+ people who are primarily OO owners who have spend many years and thousands in cash on their models. Of course majority will not want to invest in a new scale or abandon OO for TT. Maybe if the question was “if you were starting out for the first time as new modeller…”.
There seems to be a good few models being released this year with coaches and hopefully this will continue with new announcements in April. I personally love the TT as being space restricted a 6 x 4 board, it gives me the ability to do a layout that would take up a large amount of space or a smaller available layout in OO.
Really like your videos and can’t wait to see more!
I’ve got a few of Hornby TT120 locomotives 2 A4 classes, 2 A3 Classes and 1 08 class and nearly all current rolling stock, building a 1500 by 1200mm layout got track laid only can run 2 big trains but the 08 still doesn’t have its Bluetooth decoder released. I have a backup plan of ripping it out and making a bigger N gauge layout if Hornby pull out of TT120. I just feel there still not enough items not now how it was originally suggested it would be coming out.
I would quite like to see TT do well even though i model in N scale but one thing i really found over the years is I really dislike Hornby as a company. Its like they actively do things on purpose to make the hobby as well as themselves struggle at times. Like Sam said they had opportunities to work with others to grow TT but their greed and to get money for the shareholders trumps actually any sane logic or good competition so everyone loses
The title is slightly click baity. I am one of the 9% beginners with TT. The problem is the endless stock issues and the creeping prices. I honestly dont think your poll is representative. Until we get numbers or Hornby pulls the whole thing, who knows how well its really done. I hope it does well. I cant do OO its too big.
You mean titles should be designed to deter clicks rather than attract them? That's not how the internet works xD
The poll is representative - it wasn't faked!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains Yeah I know... Thanks for the vids.
It isn't. You don't need to read polls just look at the bigger picture of what other hobbyists are doing. There is a reason no one was clamoring for TT. The demand is already satisfied by OO and N. In your case, you should have went to N if space was a factor. You will get even more room than TT and it is cheaper!
@@OriginalBongoliathon what planet is N cheaper? Sure you can buy used but that’s now possible with TT as well.
I enjoy your channel but I think your conclusions here are a little premature. I saw the HST and Class 66 samples (I have one on pre-order) at Model Rail Scotland and they are really high quality. And seeing them running makes me realise how compromised the scale/gauge relationship is in 00. There was a lot of interest in TT120 - especially among younger enthusiasts. Any range takes a while to develop, and I think most will understand this.
I don't think it's really fair to call TT:120 a failure yet.
You mention the lack of models released. There's a very distinct possibility that they're suffering the same delays that the OO scale range has had from Hornby. I only just got my GWR 14xx a few weeks ago, despite ordering it last January. My J36 still hasn't arrived. And the 2MT was announced in 2022, and only just made it out at the tail end of last year.
It's why Hornby scaled back their launch range for 2024, and said that there will be a separate announcement for TT:120. Which I think is due in April.
It's also probably not best to use your audience as a measuring stick on the appeal of the range. Your audience are largely OO scale model fans. And it was made clear that TT:120 is not designed to convert those of us who already spent years investing in OO. It's to encourage newer people to enter the hobby who maybe view lack of space as an issue, but still find N scale too daunting because of how small it is.
I get Hornby selling a limited range to start with. As much as everyone in the hobby might be fed up of yet more A1s and A4s, those outwith might find them appealing to start with. Having always wanted a Flying Scotsman, but never having the space.
They've probably looked at testing the waters to start with, and then decided on this and pre-orders whether to go fully forward into the project. As they've had plenty of failures in the past. The Steampunk range comes to mind, as they went heavy on the marketing only for it to have no future after the first wave. And that stock selling for peanuts due to lack of interest by customers.
As does to a lesser extent the PlayTrains range, which looks like it's going to be phased out. It was always going to be much harder to get a very young child interested in something like that, compared to say a Thomas the Tank Engine trackmaster set. Which had more variety, accessories, and most importantly play factor. PlayTrains didn't even have a steam engine in their range.
Putting models into retailers is possibly down to the online sales not being as high as expected. Or it's potentially Hornby realising that people still want to see models up close and personal before they buy. I don't see an issue with Hornby sacrificing a percentage of the profit they would have made selling directly, to increase their overall profit through selling vastly more units through the shops.
Especially when another thing to consider, is that a lot of these sets will be sold to older people who don't shop online. Either for themselves, as I find a lot of people joining beginners groups pages on social media are retired or older people wanting to start for the first time since they were a child running their old Tri-Ang sets. Or they bought them for their children or grandchildren to get into the hobby with them, or by themselves.
I was at Model Rail Scotland yesterday. And although there wasn't much regarding TT:120, that's primarily because it's such a new scale. But what was encouraging was manufacturers making announcements for TT:120.
Everything from track and wagons in the case of Peco, to buildings and other scenery products from several other companies. So there is a market there if other companies are coming in to release items as well. Even if they aren't locos.
Like I've previously said, it will take around 5 years to judge whether the scale has been a success or not. I'm still predicting that within a couple of years, Bachmann will be making their own announcements of TT:120 sets if they see the market starting to flourish.
It wouldn't surprise me if they even tested the waters with a regular train set, and a Thomas themed set as well.
So it's maybe a bit too early for the discussions on whether TT:120 has flopped just yet.
I guess one year in, it's difficult to tell whether TT scale will work. I certainly hope so. It really does need more players in the game - competition - range - market development - promotion - kits - sel-build parts.
The scattergun approach to eras arguably makes the range even less viable for anyone who actually wants to focus on a particular era. An alternative approach might to have been to pick a single era and prototype and focus on that - in which case, LNER / Eastern Region 1930s-1960s would be a good shout (though of course I'd have gone for GWR branch line :p ) But two express locos speaks to really only the train set market. Arguably given the greater degree of standardisation and coverage, a better start would be the LMS: a Coronation perhaps, a Black Five, and a Jinty.
To be fair, it takes time for any locos & rolling stock will be released at some time in the near future and I have patience for future products. I really like TT120 and it got potential.
I have really enjoyed the train set from one of the two as I really enjoy the A4 plus three coaches in action and I got a board that I used to run it on. And I love it.
I'm loving TT so far. Just need to second hand market to catch up.
5:40 I would like to disagree here, the statistics can definitely be seen differently....... Over half of the people chose TT, the beginners...... If you can take the survey seriously at all. If you look at the market shares of N or Z in Germany, very low. In my opinion, comparing this with existing huge H0/00 marketshare is basically total nonsense.... The expectation could hardly have been that everyone would switch to TT in a few months.
Of course you don't just switch to TT and "throw away" all your rolling stock -_- Nearly nobody does that, that shouldn't surprise anyone. Objectively speaking, 00/H0 is the safe choice
A few years ago I thought about beginning with TT, but then decided against it. Also because the track gauge was practically only used in (eastern) Germany and was in third place there in terms of market share. Hornby TT didn't exist back then. If there had been Hornby TT then the decision might have been different.
Hornby TT's main target should probably be less existing customers and more beginners, for obvious reasons. In Germany, TT was also referred to as "the ideal gauge" by a former manufacturer. I would also like to see more support for Hornby here. H0/00 also has massive disadvantages, which kept me and many friends away from the hobby for a long time. HO/00 really needs space and N is too small. Hornby is currently trying to bring an alternative gauge onto the market, which can attract new people to the hobby.
I like 3D printing. I like electronics. I don’t have much of an interest in model trains. Yet here I am, watching yet another video, newly subscribed and wanting in.
This guy is like the Brian Cox of trains.
There are more than 3 locomotives, numerous liveries and variants on the 3 you mentioned mentioned , as for rolling stock, 3 different types of coaches and liveries, also rolling stock, lots of stuff for different era’s. We have the hst coming very soon. They have the scenic items to get you going as well.
I do agree with you in regards heljan, Hornby really messed that up, so many prototypes to do, losing the 31 really would make no difference.
Sam, you are incredibly awesome. Without you I would have never brought my accurascale locomotives.
Thank you so much! :D
Sam has never let me down with a recommendation. The hobby wouldn't be the same without him
@@pemboart I 100% agree. He is a bright light in a hobby of dying candles 🥸