I am really impressed with the TT120 locomotives and rollingstock that I have so far. It's a great scale to work in. Looking forward to what Hornby announce in April.
to be honest, n guage seems more appealing to me than tt120. today i went to a model exhibition and there was not 1 tt120 layout and there were at least 5 n guage.
TT is too new is the problem, you need to be part of that early adopter crowd to get into it, in time (assuming it doesn't flop) it should be fine. That said, looking at a train show I was planning on taking my kid to... until the little booger said he didn't want to go... there are 3 O layouts, 2 G, and 1 N, On30, Z, S and a Lego setup, now I know HO scale isn't dead but that's kind of what I'm into so for it to not have a layout kind of bums me out, although the reality is the clubs that usually do the HO setups have the same setups for every train show in the area so I've already seen them.
Gresley Pacifics and Mk1 coaches, and/or an 08 with tank wagons, really don't excite the imagination - and, in any case, Hornby's TT120 track is far too sharply curved. The A4 and two coaches remind me of the early Hornby-Dublo 3-rail system...
@B tt is the underloved child of the train model world - during it's inception it was only really used in GB and the Warsaw Pact countries thanks to manufacturers like Tillig. Before the Hornby relaunch last year the scale was only really alive in Russia and Eastern Germany.
I ran a second hand model train shop in Central London for 21 years and if I had a quid for every customer who said "I wish Hornby would produce TT gauge" I would be a very rich man. But saying this and actually buying the stuff when produced is another matter as seems to be the case. Hornby when attending exhibitions probably had the same comments from customers and believed it. But also the prices, I know I am a little out of touch now but the cost of one wagon is crazy, surely that must put people off. By the way Sam love your well presented videos, very clear, well done.
I was "Wheels of Steel" situated in Grays Antique Market just off Oxford Street and 1 minutes walk from Bond Street tube station. I was there for 21 years selling all makes and gauges of secondhand model trains. Could do no wrong, non stop buying and selling, a gold mine while it lasted. Then the last few years it just dwindled with old customers dying off, business guys not being sent to London (they would pop in to me on their way home and spend a few quid). Advertised regularly in Railway Modeller, etc., but just died off. Was there till end of 2016. Don't think there is a model shop now in Central London.
If they had provided a cheaper way into n scale, even if it meant a reduction in detail as with railroad, I would have shaken their collective hand off for it.
That would have been interesting! I wonder/assume if they picked TT because it wasn't already being tapped by their competition here in the UK though, Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@ianhudson2193 funny you say that: thats exactly why märklin never entered the N market and made Z instead. They didn't want to become just another manufacturer of N. And what would they make in N? More of the same naff? N in Britain is always on the periphery, realistically there's not much room there. A scale Hornby could possibly have looked at could've been S. Not so space consuming as 0. More mass and feel than 00: that more for your money feel. And if they'd made it as a process of larger 00 with its railway layout connotations, rather than a small 0 with its hyper detailed, expensive, and more adult enthusiast connotations
I tried N yonks back. Great if the scenery through which trains run floats your boat and OK for modern outline, but tbh, N gauge steam outline has never impressed me.
You're presenting a particular narrative with those poll results that doesn't feel entirely grounded. Yes, 88% are choosing to stick with their established scale. It would unthinkable to expect 20-30% of existing modellers to move entirely to a new scale in 12 months. So that isn't a meaningful metric. Likewise, "only 2% choosing to switch" - I'm surprised it's as high as that. Hornby were explicit about the commercial positioning for TT - they intend to attract new people to the hobby with it. On that, according to your poll, 11% of respondents are beginning to model in TT. Add in the 2% switchers, and 13% of your 2,000 or so polled respondents are claiming to be spending their money on TT. That's more than one in eight. Yes, it's a single sample set, but they surprisingly favourable figures for Hornby. I am a regular viewer, and I recognise/understand the recent general antipathy towards Hornby's commercial model and pricing strategy (although the emotive rhetoric about "holding customers in contempt" is unnecessary and beneath this channel's long established journalistic standards). But let's be careful not to fall into confirmation bias by selectively highlighting a handful of metrics in a set of results that is otherwise (surprisingly) favourable.
Yeah that’s fair to say - the results are definitely up for interpretation! They don’t look that positive to me, but maybe those stats are more impressive than I thought. What do you mean about holding customers in contempt? I don’t think I made that point in this video, unless I did?
I was also there, saw peco and hornby had a small selection, It can’t remember anything else … The wee layout at the Hornby stand was simple, but it looked a quality product
Agree there should be more introductions to maintain momentum . Clearly Hornby don’t have the manufacturing capacity for this , but I think it will come , I’ve just seen the HST and 50 which is imminent . I blame Simon Kohler for this . There should have been an 0-6-0 to accompany the A3 and A4 . For modern image I don’t understand the 50. It should have been a 37 47 and HST to get some mommentun going . However apparently sets are selling as soon as they are in stock, so I think that it’s quite successfully and has a good future . For me I’m contemplating a TT120 layout but I need a 37 47 and HST along with Blue Grey mk1s before I make the jump . I think it will happen though . I think the 66 will be later though . Again I’d question Kohlers choice of locos to establish the scal . I’d have gone HST Mk3s , 37 47 Mk1s A3 A4 tank engine , 08
I'm one of those who's decided to model TT alongside 00 and N. I quite like the scale, and if I was starting from scratch in my attic I'd definitely be considering TT instead of 00 (N is just a little too small for my eyes in the attic!) I agree that smaller locos (a Jinty, 45xx or J72 for example) etc would be a good idea, and definitely something that isn't LNER (I'd like a Black 5, but then I would...). If I was Hornby, I'd be targeting the train set market more heavily with TT. Homes are getting smaller, N isn't often available in toy shops or high street catalogues, many outside the hobby aren't really aware of anyone other than Hornby. I've overheard a few parents telling kids they haven't got room for a train set, and if Hornby pushed the idea that TT was a smaller but just as usable alternative, and concentrated on TT sets for Christmas presents rather than 00, they might kick start the scale. They could also make more of the fact that for those with smaller houses and older eyes TT would fit better and be more visible than N.
2 discussion videos in and I'm already keen for the next in this series! There's a hell of a lot you can say about this hobby and such videos help with awareness
Hornby also own Arnold they do TT120 too and some really good container wagons which could easily be a joint release .they also need some southern and great Western locos ASAP. I don't know why they didn't do a mk1 restaurant coach either.great vid Sam.
TT is big on the Continent and with modellers of 3'6" gauge railways, using N gauge track and mechanisms. There's also people using Hornby TT mechs and chassis and track for 00 scale 3'6" and metre gauge.
I am an 00 scale blue era diesel modeller. Space and money has forced me to either build micro layouts or go N gauge. I saw tt120 at Warley and was interested. If the range is cheaper than 00 and a Class 121/122 DMU and a Class 25 became available I am in. Think Hornby should do a deal with peco and have peco produce most of the wagons freeing up some investment cash for Hornby to concentrate on the loco's. I understand the reasoning behind the Mallard and Flying Scottsman models as my brother-in-law is a "train set" buyer and has 1 of the sets and will buy the other. I think Hornby are trying to get new poeple in on the hobby as well as the traditional modellers, but you need more variety to get existing modellers to part with their cash or like me change scale. I will watch out for new releases with interest.
I am from the continent and I think most us were quite excited when Hornby announced to join the TT community. It is not a big one ( in comparison to H0 or N) but we have few excellent manufacturers and the overall quality is quite high. I was amoung the first ones who purchased the wonderfull Pullman coaches. Here Hornby did an excellent job. Unfortunatelly on the steam locomotives they made a huge mistake. They simple copied their 00 scale model, what is far away from the quality standards in today’s TT world. In TT the manufacturers many decades ago solved the problem with a 4-6-2 wheel arrangement, Hornby did not ( wheater in 00 nor in TT). They should just study the TT models in their corporation (Arnold TT). This model for us is far away from the expected quality or model fidelity. I know for you the priority is mostly on painting and livery, on the continent for is also important the technical accuracy and also the internal construction like drive chain, flywheels, wheel arrangement etc. Here Hornby’s solutions are not up to date.😮 Also the selection of diesels is not very lucky. Those huge modern 6 axle locomotives do not fit exactly the age of the offered wonderfull small freigth wagons and probably not the first TT layouts in UK. Sam you are right, smaller steam and diesel locomotives would fit much better the market and create more business. I hope Hornby revises their TT plans for the future and will offer up to date models also for us, outside of UK.
I hope Hornby offers some up to date models for people IN the UK.... If you want to attract new younger modellers you need to offer the sort of trains you can see on the railways today. TT120 has space for big mainline modern image layouts - that's where the focus should be, not on replicating stuff that already exists in larger or smaller scales. Look at Pete Waterman's exhibition layouts - big modern prototypes. He might prefer 7mm Western steam era models for his own layout - so do I - but that's not what he presents for the public. If it's to survive TT120 has to be a modern image scale to separate itself from the other scales and find its own niche. If you're cramped for space and you haven't already made use of the superb N gauge models available maybe it's not just space you're short of , it's motivation and creativity. I can't think of anything more tedious than people scratching around wanting to build a TT120 branch line and whining about not being able to get a Pannier or a Jinty. What a waste of a scale. Finally I recall that in a Railway Modeller article a while ago Simon Kohler was reported as saying that there was no market research done prior to Hornby committing to TT120. The decision was based on instinct and years of model railway marketing experience. Really? I mean really!!!!????? Simon of course has now parted company with Hornby. Make of that what you will.
@@cathybrind2381 I fully agree with you. Problem is that the new trains are extremely long while our space is still the same. While on a real station a real high speed train from 7-9 coaches is still a short train, in TT it is more than 4 feet long just the train. Or if one wants to have a modern class 66 locomotive it is slowly longer as two modern container wagons , that means a big powerful machine will pull 3-4 wagons and will occupy the whole station.
Greetings from the US, I've noticed it's a bit of a struggle to find Hornby models here in the states. Even online the pickings are slim on Hornby's US website. TT scale would be out of the question as there is no equivalent here while HO and N scale tracks and models are mostly compatible with their Hornby counterparts. The biggest hurdle in me getting into the hobby is that my favorite railway location and time period is early and mid 20th century UK, when the most beautiful steam engines, like the Flying Scottsman, were in their prime. Models and scenery related to this period and location aren't typically in stock at the local hobby shop (of which there are too few).
I guess one year in, it's difficult to tell whether TT scale will work. I certainly hope so. It really does need more players in the game - competition - range - market development - promotion - kits - sel-build parts.
The TT market in Britain is currently minuscule but it is a major global scale. Hornby are selling UK TT trains abroad, apparently The Flying Scotsman is popular, and Arnold have been given a push. OO is at saturation…it will never be a global seller. I suspect TT is Hornby’s bid for a future.
I am not too into the hobby, I mostly watch your videos, but if I were to get into it fully, I think TT would be my preferred scale. Its not AS expensive, and its pretty small, perfect if you dont have too much space.
I think that going with TT was a mistake. It's just too niche. Not only does it have to compete with both OO and N, its niche of being "smaller than OO but less fiddly than N" is already partially filled by OO9, which is arguably better at filling that niche, as it allows a OO scale layout to be built in and N scale space. A better choice would have been N scale. Looking around at the retailers, there certainly room for another manufacturer. It has a slight benefit in space, as you can get more N scale in a given space than TT. I imagine if Hornby is trying to appeal to a new younger market, then the fiddlyness of N wouldn't be much of a problem. N has the advantage of having an established market, would still have the advantage of lower price.
Thanks Sam for your look at the recent Hornby TT scale line & your reviews of the actual models. Very informative video you made. BTW, I like your videos, always enjoyable & well done. Best regards from a UK model railway fan in British Columbia, Canada.
In Australia, some states operate narrow gauge 3 feet 6 inch gauge railways and TT is perfect scaled down for track and mechanisms. I know of a number of modellers here in my State of Queensland who have bought locos and used them to power models of Queensland trains. I know that would not be a massive amount of people but it is a possible marketing area for Hornby, selling mechanisms for scratchbuilders.
I'm about to embark on a new serious layout after not having anything since I was a teen. I have some very random bits of OO bit not enough to make that sway a decision but there's zero chance I'd go for TT when starting from scratch. N or OO would be the only option for me...
Good points,well presented! I thoroughly agree with you that Hornby, whilst planning to bring out a variety of eras must produce a wider variety of sizes of loco (as you say,the only small engine being the 08).Not everyone wants or can afford to buy bigger engines every time. I'd like to be able to kitbash chassis for 5.5mm scale and modern, reliable mechanisms would be ideal!
It is too early to be running down Hornby for this new to the U.K. scale. OO is & always has been just wrong, even our N gauge doesn't quite get it right - at last a true scale to gauge which matches the European standard. The couplings also match & TT has a large following in Europe. The class 66 is not made by anyone else & the Europeans are waiting for the euro versions to be announced. I accept that some of the direction has been poor, not helped by the departure of it's champion Simon Kholer. They have released locos but not the same era rolling stock so making a genuine goods train is difficult. I have today received my first HST set but not the coaches! Please give this accurate scale a chance & I look forward to running a full HST set in a modern sized house which I couldn't have done with 00.
i have not had a train set since i was a kid in the 80s, (BR Intercity 125) im thinking of starting again with TT, its a nice balance, to me, between OO and N scale. and i dont mind the lack of options at the moment, makes it easier, again, to me, to get into the hobby without there being so many choices i would just get confused and not know what to get first. A slow build up of choices is nicer to begin with i think. My only wish is that they do the Hogwarts Express in TT!!
I had a good look at TT at MRS a few days back. An I must say I was impressed. If I was starting again, and the available models were more readily available I’d go for it. BUT, I am far far too far down the line with N gauge … And if I’m going for a second layout it would be O gauge , in the garden …
The same has been said of N scale by Chris Leigh of Model Rail a few years ago when he wanted to model a Southern location. I got into TT to model Polish railways and there is a lot more available than in N. For me, I think it will be preferable to both N and 00 due to the size factor.
I was at Model Rail Scotland today, and the only TT120 layouts I can remember seeing, were the ones on the Hornby Stand, Hornby magazine stand and the Peco stand!
Yip I was there too. The little layout at the Hornby stand was pretty simple, but from what I saw the models looked to be of very good quality. But for serous modellers, who need a range of locos / stock to ti their region / epoch TT is gonna be really difficult
I'm not sure that your 12% is as bad as you think it is. It's certainly a self selecting group of people that voted but from the comments on here I'm quite sure there are plenty of commenters and voters happy to see TT fail and Hornby go out of business! You have a subscriber base of nearly 150k and some estimates put modellers or model layouts in the UK upwards of 250k so 12% of that would make it around 30k customers which makes a very decent size market. The current situation reminds of when I got into N gauge in the early 2000s. There was very little modern image stock that I could count as worth owning in terms of quality and the first few years were buying cheaper older stuff and then selling it on as better stock slowly came from Farish and Dapol. It was not until Dapol produced the Voyager in 2007 four or five years later that I felt that modern N gauge had aririved and even then had to wait for Revolution to deliver the Pendolino 10 years after that before I had all of the stock I really needed.
Currently model in HOe, HOm and 7/8ths....wanted to give TT british theme a go with compact layout....can't be done when the steam locos require R2...Hornby, give me an 0-4-0 or 0-6-0 and I am all in.
I think it was a mistake because I don’t think a lot are just going to drop everything they have in oo probably years of collecting and building to start a new scale with not a lot of stuff
Great video! How about 3D printed 'own-build'? - would it be possible and/or practicable to re-size your own wonderful 'Problem' loco for TT? Would the wheels/moter issues be insuperable?
I was honestly very surprised that Hornby came out with TT, considering that British TT has been pretty much dead since Triang stopped its’ range in the 1960s. The models really do look lovely, but I do feel it’s a very niche scale in the U.K, squished in between 00 & N…. At least being a fresh start, it doesn’t have the scale/gauge discrepancies of “legacy” 00 & N! It seems their releases so far haven’t much of a common theme, so that may also be an issue. For example, you could mix Hornby TT with European TT…. I think Hornby could have taken advantage of that with a Eurostar, Le Shuttle & Channel Tunnel freights!
Interesting views on this subject. TT120 is a scale I would like to try but the problem for me is its availability. Here in Australia there are only a handful of shops which stock Hornby TT120 so getting my hands on it is a bit tricky. But even with that it is something I would still have a go at but it probs wont be a scale I'll stick to in the long run.
Looks like a great gamble. Seems like they wanted something that would make them practically the only supplier in a certain scale since there aren''t too many manufacturers in this scale, particularly when it comes to British models. For that to succeed you can't just bring out only different schemes but you need to do a comprehensive line. Seems quite tricky.
I'm an American. The TT-scale trains sound, to my ears, like a nice entry for foreign modelers to get into a British outline diorama layout. A diesel shunter, some wagons, and a DMU, could make for a sweet end of line layout in a compact space. What I'm not hearing, however, is what the availability of track components and structures are. Hornby could have a 100 locomotives and thousands of coaches and wagons to pick from, but if the only track options are straight, one radius of curves, and #4 switches, there ain't much play value in that. And the same goes for structures - albeit, it's way easier to make a building out of paper than it is to lay your own track. The last "new" scales I can recall were T (1:450) still very much a novelty, and On30 which made use of existing HO (1:87.1) track and O (1:48) structures. I think that TT:120 could have had a more inspiring launch if Hornby - or the trio of their wannabe competitors, had launched with a theme not readily available in other scales. How about British broad-gauge? Could that have used HO/OO track??? What about modeling the London Underground? A TT Underground could be added to an OO layout without the scale difference being a problem. Just as On30" tends to focus on American narrow gauge in a less fiddly form than finescale HOn3, ect, British TT could become the scale of rapid transit and tram modelers. It could always expand to mainline stock, but carving a niche is always more productive than trying to be everything to everyone in a gap between two strong competitors. At that, Hornby would have better odds going up to S (1:64) than down to TT.
Hornby's track range is expanding, but it's also not the only option out there. Roco, Tillig, and Peco each offer TT track systems with flex track. There's lots of variety.
The manufacturers need to get with the times. I think kids these days don't see/know a lot of the locos/rolling stock. The newer stuff is what they see, I really think they need to add more modern items.
Sam your wrong about the set at the retailer, a few days ago I try to buy the eastern set and Rails of Sheffield and TMC didn't have any in stock it was only on pre order,All they had was the flying Scotsman sets which I don't want, I wanted the eastern set but no where has got it.
@@SamsTrains one other thing, I phone rails of Sheffield and TMC and they told me that the eastern set was pre order only and they didn't have any in stock, that was about a week and a half ago
That makes sense, as this video was filmed and written over 2 weeks ago, when both sets were available at Hornby and Rails, so have only gone out of stock just recently.
To me, I think Hornby had a great opportunity to bring in Kadee style couplers to the British model railway scene and it would have made a massive improvement on the tradtional sytle of British couplers that are in use today. Uncoupling locos or wagons with Kadee couplers is a breeze compared to the existing British ones.
I find it astonishing Hornby wanted to try and introduce TT scale to the UK! Especially since 3mm 1/100 scale has gained somewhat of a following, based on Tri-Ang TT. Although all 3mm scale models are kit builds or scratchbuilt. TT saw success mostly in Germany and Eastern Europe with Berliner TT Bahnen, now owned by Tillig. Piko and Kuehn. TT scale in America is limited to scratchbuilt models and older models produced prior to the emergence on N scale. I am surprised Hornby made a TT class 66 but no wagons to go with it, as the TTA tankers and HAA hoppers rarely worked with 66s before retirement. They did choose to make era 3/4 rolling stock, but no goods loco to pull them aside from the 08 shunter. They probably should've developed a goods steam loco like an 8F for range launch instead of a 66. The 66 should've been a year 2 announcement with more modern era rolling stock like container flatbeds and bogie hoppers.
History is full of companies which have spent so much on a new product it has caused the company to fail. I hope this does not prove to be the case with Hornby and they are right to be cautious. Its a long term project to secure a new generation in the hobby. Kids start with a train set for Christmas and stay at the same scale. Other scales have huge competition, not least from secondhand stock. For some time TT can only be bought new from Hornby which secures a revenue stream. I hope Hornby secures enough sales to stay in profit and continue to develop our hobbies.
To make a new standard you need 2 things: 1) It must be free and open to be used by anyone, particularly other competitor manufacturers. 2) You need to make a conscious effort to get those other manufacturers onboard. Without those you'll never get the market penetration needed.
This is not a criticism merely a thought you might want to consider. The original concept of TT i.e Table top was first mooted in Triang days. One of the Locomotives that Triang released was the Princess range I have the old and modern version- I suggest you actually look at both and measure them against each other and the reason that Hornby Triang did not pursue that scale is belied by N gauge. Now I can't manage N gauge and the OO gauge is my preferred albeit somewhat inaccurate by scale.
British outline in scale with the rails. I'M IN. OO from a front view has always been a mess - familiar shapes (A4s, Castles Duchesses etc apparently running on 3'6" narrow gauge was never an appealing part of OO modelling).in scale. This is just superb. PS - as an Eastern Region modeller, I see nothing wrong whatsoever with the first two steam choices ;-)
Sorry, but you are exaggerating. If you just look at the details, you got different typs of A1 and A4, so six different forms of steam engines and one Class08 shunter. Not to mention the different colors and epochs. So three locos is far understated. Also you really forgot to mention the large TT market in middle Europe. These ar no UK Models but fully compatible to the Hornby TT, even the coupling is the same in Austria, Germany, Chez Republic and in the Netherlands. If you do not like the track system of Hornby (which is quite good), you can also choose the track system of Peco (UK), three different kinds of track systems of Tillig (Germany), or the track system of Roco ( Austria , former Kuehn- Germany ). Those systems are compatible to each other. Supply supporting companies in TT-Scale are Tillig, Piko, Peco, Roco, Kres, Arnold (also Hornby), PSK Modelbouw, MTB, Hädl, Igra Model, Schirmer, Busch, Noch, Sommerfeldt, Viessmann, Auhagen, MKB Modelle, Artitec, and a lot of small companies like Karsei, ModelScene, JM Detail, etc.. This market is anything but small. For me it seems, that you didn't do any research for the video. Sorry, but good journalism looks different.
No, they’re the same models with variations - if someone isn’t interested in the LNER Gresley Pacifics, then the A1/3 and livery variations won’t help them… that was the point, sorry you missed it. Having European models available will not help someone looking to model a British railway - so what does the European market have to do with it? I’m sorry you think the video wasn’t researched, but I’m afraid it was, carefully! You are entitled to your opinions.
You just have contradicted yourself in a single sentence. So you are agreeing there is a larger palette to choose from than you spoke of in the video. And about the European market, Arnold just release container waggons which travel on both sides of the English Channel. Also you are missing the ferry boat carriages of Arnold. But I was refering mainly to the tracks and to the accesories. There you can find a lot useful things like bridges, street lamps, turntables, buildings, which can also be used in a UK scenery. So you have to admit, your research was and is poor.
How many TT 120 users did you speak to Sam? I'm not having a go, but you did make statements that someone from the TT community would have corrected you on.
I don't understand why they didn't go for HO. There is obviously a HUGE market for that across the world. Look at the cost of the Malklin Flying Scotsman. They could have produced the first two models and marketed them across the world and that would have financed the rest of the range.
I think with Hornby's TT-Scale the issue is what era are they trying to launch with? An A3 and A4 plus a Gronk? Wouldn't it of made more sense to produce an era such as 80's BR Blue where multiple engines could of been produced and then modellers could then produce their own railway layouts with all new scenary buildings etc that's been made available with the TT range? Seems like someone at Hornby has a favourite loco A3/4 and put that before actually any common sense.
Talking about locomotives, they should have a goods locomotive to go along with the goods wagons that they are already selling. An 0-6-0 might be a solid choice
I really like concept of something between OO/HO and N, for the most the reasons you list, but like many on this channel I’ve already invested thousands in my current layout. If I was completely starting all over again maybe.
Sam, The big reason for TT is that there are plenty of European TT Models from companies like Arnold, ROCO, Tillig and Piko. The big advantage of this is that they are all the same scale and use the same coupling, so they can be mix and match without drama. Having said that, I am in agreeance with what you said. Hornby just got greedy, and it may end them.
I was very keen when TT was first announced I model U.S. N scale and was looking at building a 1940s U.K. 00 shunting layout (I didn't have space for a big layout) so TT was the answer!. A year on and no steam tank engine for the proposed layout and nothing looking hopeful in the near future, so it looks like 009 will be filling the void for me some gorgeous models being released and plenty of choice. I find it strange that the guy who launched TT120 with great gusto and energy then left Hornby.
My background in computing leads me to ask if this is Hornby's "MSX moment". In the late 80s, several BIG Japanese manufacturers (and they didn't come much bigger than Sony, for example - R&D budget in 10 figures at the time) collaborated to produce a home computer specification called MSX. The idea was simple and SHOULD have worked - instead of lots of incompatible home computers, make a batch of machines that can ALL run the same software, so that different software developers could release titles developed on one machine, and have them run without modification on ALL the MSX machines. Even with vast mountains of Japanese corporate cash behind it, MSX was a marketplace flop. Because even more mountains of corporate cash was being piled into PC compatibles, with faster processors and LOTS more memory than could be attached to a Z80. And, the same pitfall befell MSX that strangled some other notable 80s computer launches - the hardware was ready, but no software to speak of. I suspect Hornby is trying to "do an MSX" with the TT120 scale, but without the multi-company collaboration and the mountains of cash. This does NOT bode well for the future if so. As big as the Japanese companies involved in MSX were, they were up against two massive financial Imperial Star Destroyers of the era - Microsoft and Intel. Who were in a position to sway the market to their whims. Hornby doesn't appear to have that problem to worry about, unless someone here knows of a mega-competitor I haven't heard of. But they DO have the other problems. Think of the track as the hardware, and the models as the software. The analogy fits to a possibly dangerous extent. I hope they DO pull this off, because no one wants to see Hornby go under, it's a trans-generational institution that delivered for a lot of people over many years, but I'm worried that too much pinstripe thinking is hobbling the company.
I'd hate to see Hornby go down because it is a major player and there are good people who work there. However, I can't help but wonder if they really thought things through with how this was rolled out. Steam locos are great for those of us who can remember steam being on the railways every day but that was over half a century ago! Model railways are not cheap and they compete head on with computer games for peoples hobby time. There are 3 billion people around the world who routinely game on - line. To win a new following, manufacturers have got to make their products directly relevant to people who don't know about the hobby.. That surely means modelling what they see everyday? So start with Era 11, market it properly with social media and Tv advertising, get exhibition layouts in public access spaces such as shopping malls and sports centres (where parents and kids go together) with info on "How can I get into this?" readily and freely available. TT could work, but the manufacturers must co-operate and get high profile ambassadors for the hobby who are far more relevant and attractive to a wider audience involved. I wish them luck!!
An insightful and well put-together video, here, as always. When I first found out that Hornby were bringing out a range in TT I must admit that I started to grind my teeth! Yes, the quality of the models is there and I fully understand their caution because of the costs of developing this range, but I couldn't help wondering that if Hornby were going to be sticking their neck out in this way then why not have a crack at producing HO scale instead? After all, HO scale has a massive following around the world, and could perhaps get international modellers interested instead of being confused about OO? Personally I have nothing against OO modellers at all, but I'm and avid British-outline HO modeller and I also make other HO scale models besides the trains, and in HO this is far better catered for (Like cars and trucks, which are not treated as a railway accessory but a branch of modelling in their own right), but let's face it, OO is a "Mongrel" scale and the problems that led to it's creation have long since been solved. It would be interesting to see what happens with TT in the coming years...
I think it has the potential to replace N gauge for newcomers to the hobby but they do need to focus on expanding the range, maybe when there are 15-20 locomotives you could say it had critical mass to survive but its a question of it reaches it before the plug is pulled.
I'm getting back into railway modeling and was thinking of going TT120 as I don't really have room for 00. But having looked at the loco stock available I've decided against it and gone for N scale where there are plenty of diesel locos and stock to choose from.
Thanks for an interesting video. I expect Hornby did a lot of market research and I'm sure I'm not a member of their main target demographic. I can see how starting with a Flying Scotsman set would appeal to some. But then adding an A4 is a marginal expansion of customer choice. The 08 is then a good expansion of customer choice. but away from preserved lines, they're only used for shunting. After the A3, I would have gone for a steam era mixed traffic loco and a modern(ish) era mixed traffic main line diesel. I would also be tempted to stick to prototypes that can easily be seen running today.
@@SamsTrainsNo. Until Hornby goes on it, TT was a scale ideal if you want to model GDR prototypes from 1950 to 1990 (and some East European ones too). Or get the chassis to to HO metre gauge rolling stock, great sport in France in the 1970s and the 1980s. That is one of the reasons why I have serious doubts about the future of UK TT scale.
I will be more upbeat, 13% of your poll are modelling in TT is what I saw with your numbers versus 88% not (ignoring your rounding errors). Give it a few years yet. Very difficult and unpredictable times for all. But yes great shame Hornby did not coordinate products with others to establish and benefit manufacturers, shops and modellers alike….All the best Stephen
TT is a great idea but I think we all smelt a failure to launch a mile way. There is so much avaliable in N and OO including a vibrant secondhand market. I don't see it kicking off against the realities of the situation despite it being a good idea. Especially if other manufacturers don't get deeply involved.
I hear the Fraser Group have bought more shares in Hornby? They currently sell some Hornby products in their GAME shops. Could this further investment mean more funds for further development of the TT range?
I think that Hornby should look at how popular their 'Old' and far less detailed models from the 1960s are still? If these were still available, but with a slower gearing on the old faithful XO 4 motors (or a 5 pole version) It may be an answer? The public want models that will last a lifetime, not ones that get broken unpacking them? It's a terrible pity that the old molds were scrapped by some genius between then and now? The management should look at Oscar Paisley's or Mr. Snooze's channels to see what many modellers actually prefer to enjoy.. Fine scale collectors do a great job ,with fantastic (and very expensive) layouts, but they are not "everyone"? Most of us, just can't afford it....
You hit the nail on the head... The range simply isn't big enough to entice people in. For example, my interests are primarily GWR/SR/LMS Steam and modern image. The Hornby TT range has effectively only 2 models that fit my interests, the 08 in DB and GBRf liveries. Rolling stock wise, the TTA tankers are technically right, but they don't actually match with the two liveries of the 08s! Why would I bother getting into TT when I could get in to N or OO which have a myriad of models that fit my interests. Hornby needed to release everything they had announced right at the start, and had a 2nd wave waiting in the wings... Or they should have just entered the N Gauge market.
As another thought, a longtime modeler did a video a while ago that hit a poignant note on how the hobby is strong and there is a market, but the solution should be contemporary offerings-get kids in by giving them what they would see nowadays with Azumas, Class 90s, etc. They might enjoy historic stuff in time, but that would might be an interesting way to grow TT rather than the same era steam as OO, just in another scale.
I genuinely believe TT is the perfect scale for the pros listed at the start of the video. I think Hornby and peco need to make 20 locos. 5 locos per region during the big four. 1 in those 5 being pre grouping locos, and all 20 available in a vast array of liveries, similar to the current rapido approach. I think just this will expand the range enough to get a lot more people interested.
Something I'd love to see is another new scale. Sort of. I personally think that even with the detail that O gauge is so big it looses a bit of the charm of oo gauge so, I'd love to see 5.5mm scale fleshed out for standard gauge.
I like the idea of the TT, can create a fairly big layout but not take up as much room... but as Sam has said, the lack of loco's, rolling stock etc just doesn't give enough interest imo
I'm sticking with OO and OO9; branching into another scale would be too expensive and it's smaller size would strain my aging eyesight! Hornby's anti-competitive practices are crazy, it is the large range of different products that are available for OO that attracts me to it and keeps me buying Hornby items to use with those of other manufacturers.
If they had launched it for families like Simon originally suggested in the intro maybe it would have sold well initially? Confess they do look fantastic. They were better off making a simpler and 'cheaper' railroad style group of models first and foremost. This i think shows the issue, they couldn't actually decide who these were actually for. Families or serious modellers. My guess was this may have led to the two employees doing a runner.
Nah that can’t be done unfortunately - the details and detail parts would all have to be adjusted and redesigned, and all new tooling would have to be developed and tested etc. The cads from the OO models would be a good starting point, but still tonnes of work involved!
When will Hornby learn? I just watched your 14XX railroad plus model review and then this. If I was a majority shareholder I’d be making some strong changes in their management team around (or before) now.
@@dj_efk I’m only addressing the claim of the 14XX and the TT-range. The management has been changed. Shareholders want products that sell, both do, so the problem must be elsewhere.
in this day and age, I've have thought Hornby would have followed 'lean start up' to test customer desirability - and validate all the killer assumptions such as some of your points - including switching costs.. i'd put money on Hornby killing it. It will never be business viable - just because you can doesn't mean you should
I think TT will run put of steam (pardon the pun). I don't think many people currently modelling in any scale will be prepared to jump over to this scale and then wait patiently for 10 years to finally have the models they want in the scale. TT was a solution to a problem that had already been solved, ie N gauge offering a smaller scale for a downsize from OO.
I think TT is a great scale, because as you said you can fit more in, keep the detail and not as fiddly as N. BUT, I feel Hornby killed it themselves by A - Releasing "trainset" locos, B - Announcing everything and scaring off other potential manufacturers (i.e. Heljan). I know its easier to say now, but Hornby should have select a few common locos (say Class 37, 47, 08, Black 5, A3 (for trainsets) and a Pannier tank), along with "common" wagons and coaches. This way they could have kept a lot more people catered for, in more eras and this would have probably kick started the gauge more. I was going to go into it, but then when Hornby basically turned it into flogging trainsets and aren't releasing anything meaningful modern image for a long time, this put me off..... for now.
I have come into model railways because of TT120, buying the Easterner set in October 2022. The size is right and I am happy to wait as the range develops. I have the Duchess class and HST on pre-order . I have spent hundreds of pounds on base boards, NCE Powercab DCC controller, track, buildings, signals, scenery. I can run a loco and five/six coaches in a simialr length Running a loco and three coaches in 00 and have a longer run of track. if Hornby doesn't keep the British models going, I will buy european models and run a continental model railway. As someone new to the hobby, I have been amazed at how may people are so anti-TT120. what does it matter to them?? I would not expect many, if any one who invested lots of money in N or OO to swap over to what is untried scale launch. I have other hobbies and I want a low key model railway to enjoy. A few locos that I like, running at the same time. steam and diesel together. with UA-cam videos bemoaning the death of model railwaying, patience and support for a new endeavour is what is needed. In my humble opinion (but then, I am only a 50 something, looking start a pleasurable hobby).
I suspect that few people are 'anti TT:120', rather you are correct that few people wants to start from scratch in a new scale, whether TT:120 can sustain itself on new entrants to the hobby is the crux of the matter.
The problem is, that we can't all afford "hundreds of pounds" for our hobby? Especially with the added cost of DCC? A "basic" set is what most children want?
Hi Sam. It’s not uncommon for you to take some heat for your views, and usually I find I tend to agree. However here, I hope you don’t mind, but some of the analysis is questionable. From your own survey 6% of your viewers are brand new to the hobby because of TT120. Is there anything you can think of in the last 25 years that has INCREASED the hobby base in that way? In addition, at the start there wa as huge fuss over TT120 cannibalising sales of 00. But Hornby felt that unlikely, and only 2% have switched. Further the Peco and Hornby wagons are not actually the same - very similar I grant you, but a different length of wheelbase entirely. The aim of TT120 needs to be seen in its broadest perspective - to grow the hobby. It is not so much about establishing another new scale, nor about tearing down the hybrid of British 00 or even N. It is about widening the hobby for new blood. It is doing that. Even the move to retailers - they were hammered at the start for not doing that. And now they are criticised for doing it? Whereas they maintained that it was unsuitable to bring to retailers and expect them to invest in an unproven scale, so Hornby did that part. Now that they can show it sells, retailers are happier to take a selection. It’s NOT meant to take over the hobby, or replace OO. It is meant to grow the hobby. Having said all that - thanks for continuing to cover it. Also I agree the models themselves are largely very good. And I also agree that I’d love it if they could have somehow had a mega launch of a dozen locos and stock!
@gregmacdonald927 - well said! I agree with everything you've put there! Sam is concentrating on the 88% of respondents that aren't interested in TT:120 while ignoring the 11% that are actually modelling in the scale - 11% is a much higher than I would have expected. Alao, another thing about Sam's criticism of opening up TT:120 to retailers is that this was always in Hornby's plans - there is a early TT Talk video where Simon Kohler actually states that once the scale is established then Hornby would begin to sell TT:120 via retailers.
As person from Germany i will kindly mention that TT is on the go especially in eastern Germany ( and eastern Europe also). Hornby is promoting their TT program in German Internet shops.
@@jonathanwebb8307Indeed. I ended up practically having to apologise for being English because of the looks I got regarding Hornby whenever I took my nephews to model shops in Hamburg. From as soon as they could crawl (2004ish) and every one of the following two decades. Verdammte Hornby!
That's it, they seem to still think it's the 70's. It doesn't matter so much that they're from just one manufacturer, but you need a decent range so you can build a representative collection to run a layout with. Having an just express loco and a shunter doesn't cut it. That's a train set, not a model railway.
A great example is 009, there are several manufacturers making great narrow gauge models, which are many times sold out within weeks or even before launch.
same as Hornby's TT range, then, that's one reason for the delays in more locos, the fact that demand exceeded production and they had to use some of the pre booked slots to make more of the original range.@@darreno9874
The Hornby TT layout at Model Rail Scotland today had a Scotsman and a Valenta HST. The sound fitted Valenta HST sounded superb. I was really impressed. It would be a shame if TT failed.
trouble is they probably lost the license in the first place because they wouldn't update the models. One thing I have heard is that the reason they keep changing Thomas models brands (Take and Play etc) was to keep the faces looking more like the new style. Hornby never really changed the Thomas models up until the last release where Thomas got his footplate painted. So if Hornby acquired the TT license for Thomas, they would have to make the models essentially exclusive for Thomas characters or have some bizarre models as "industrial tank engine of obscure origin". And Bachman have N Scale Thomas anyway.
@@rodimussupreme2329 They don’t need a license for TT, it’s nothing exclusive to Hornby, the question is one of if it’d sell well, HO/OO and N are both big markets, G not so much, but they still sell G scale Thomas stuff, so it must sell well, with TT only recently making a comeback Bachmann would need to develop all new toolings, not to mention it might not be what people want, most Thomas modellers I’ve seen model OO/HO, N, G or O, all markets which have had T&F ready-to-run models for donkey’s years (OO/HO by Hornby and Bachmann, N by Bachmann and Tomix, O by Lionel, and G by Bachmann), so would they want to make the move to TT?
I wonder if this was an idea of Simon Kohler’s which he managed to persuade Hornby management to invest in? Now he and Montana have left, the PlayTrains range has since been dropped. Will TT:120 go the same way, despite the investment by both Hornby and those who bought it?
Good topic. I don’t think this is as big a gamble as it may seem. Hornby owns Arnold, and I think that if things were to go south for Hornby, they can get Arnold to continue production in TT 120. I think the key here is the scale. I have recently purchased a few of Arnold’s container wagons in TT scale, and they match perfectly with my Hornby TT. Now that Roco and Piko are starting to produce TT120, along side established companies like Tillig, this scale will grow. Just think, it will now be possible to run British locomotives and rolling stock along side those from Europe. Looking forward to one day being able to run my model train from Beijing to London. Cheers!
For quite a while, the train sets at around £170 were always out of stock but you could still buy the contents of the sets separately from Hornby but that cost around £300 so that would have put many people off.
@thekingdomofostroviainhoe3299 they ment what they wrote that the lack of available sets has resulted in a slower up take of tt, youtube is not twitter haters are less welcome in the comments maybe re read comments before you make an x (twitter) style comment have a nice day😊
I wish Hornby would also produce H0 rolling stock. OO-models seem rather oversized on my H0-layout. Lima had a few British models in H0-scale, I have a few of them, and their size is great.
@@valentinsn-ostalgiemodellbahnCause at the time HO for British meant certain details couldn't produce well at that scale so they made the model scaled slightly bigger making OO gauge. The evidence that they to keep it at simliar scales is that most 00 gauge locomotive nowadays can use HO scale tracks with almost no issues. Edit Motors couldn't be sized down enough for British models was the main reason for the change of scale.
All the attempts to sell British outline HO models failed and soon stopped production. Lima had massive success once they went OO for UK outline instead of HO. Fleischman was another unsuccessful UK HO range with just their Warship locomotive and Bullied coaches before they gave up. The Marklin HO Warship was even more of a disaster. So much wrong with their current A3.
I just happened to think of something. You currently have a VERY unique opportunity here. As TT:120 is still in its infancy, you have a chance to collect EVERY MODEL produced in this scale and be able to also REVIEW every TT:120 scale model. With as much of a following as your channel has, it could help to boost the exposure this scale gets and perhaps even HELP Hornby in this venture!
Good point. But only possible from Hornby. It would be very difficult and expensive to track down and purchase all the HP products TT 120 range they made from about 1946 to 1964, to give just one other maker of TT120.
I was at a large West Riding model shop the other week where I saw some TT:120 models in the flesh for the first time, and was very impressed by the detail and the general feel of the scale. Chatting to the fella behind the counter he said the range had been an excellent seller. Once they bring out a grouping era 0-6-0 tank or small goods tender engine I'll buy a bit and set up an inglenook.
But how much of what's out there is compatible with what Hornby is making or for trains in the UK exclusively? Also, he mentioned that Peco makes track and cars for TT.
@@AlcoLoco251 Maybe they should talk to TT manufactures on the continent to build up the TT market in UK. There were always such plans, including US market, but all failed exactly because the major modelrailway manufactures blocked the initiatives everywhere. Hornby purchased dozens of continental manufacturers with knowledge with experience, why they did not discuss these facts internally? Nobody knows in the Hornby corporation the history of the last 2-3 decades, not to mention the technical solutions what is today common, a standard in model production? Even in TT! Look at the latest PIKO TT models. Different world. Roco also turned back to TT when they purchased the whole product line of Kühn.
I am really impressed with the TT120 locomotives and rollingstock that I have so far. It's a great scale to work in. Looking forward to what Hornby announce in April.
Bankruptcy?
Yeah absolutely - the models themselves have been excellent - I hope they continue too!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains looking forward to the next review! Will you do the HST?
to be honest, n guage seems more appealing to me than tt120. today i went to a model exhibition and there was not 1 tt120 layout and there were at least 5 n guage.
TT is too new is the problem, you need to be part of that early adopter crowd to get into it, in time (assuming it doesn't flop) it should be fine. That said, looking at a train show I was planning on taking my kid to... until the little booger said he didn't want to go... there are 3 O layouts, 2 G, and 1 N, On30, Z, S and a Lego setup, now I know HO scale isn't dead but that's kind of what I'm into so for it to not have a layout kind of bums me out, although the reality is the clubs that usually do the HO setups have the same setups for every train show in the area so I've already seen them.
Gresley Pacifics and Mk1 coaches, and/or an 08 with tank wagons, really don't excite the imagination - and, in any case, Hornby's TT120 track is far too sharply curved. The A4 and two coaches remind me of the early Hornby-Dublo 3-rail system...
For me at least, tabletop scale appears too big. N scale seems much better at avoiding goofy tail-chasing trains on a confined layout.
@@ianjeffery6744 Peco offers TT flex-track for those interested in creating different geometry.
@B tt is the underloved child of the train model world - during it's inception it was only really used in GB and the Warsaw Pact countries thanks to manufacturers like Tillig. Before the Hornby relaunch last year the scale was only really alive in Russia and Eastern Germany.
I ran a second hand model train shop in Central London for 21 years and if I had a quid for every customer who said "I wish Hornby would produce TT gauge" I would be a very rich man. But saying this and actually buying the stuff when produced is another matter as seems to be the case. Hornby when attending exhibitions probably had the same comments from customers and believed it. But also the prices, I know I am a little out of touch now but the cost of one wagon is crazy, surely that must put people off. By the way Sam love your well presented videos, very clear, well done.
People lie but money doesn't.
Yes, hardly cheap!
Where was your Shop… Tony.
I was "Wheels of Steel" situated in Grays Antique Market just off Oxford Street and 1 minutes walk from Bond Street tube station. I was there for 21 years selling all makes and gauges of secondhand model trains. Could do no wrong, non stop buying and selling, a gold mine while it lasted. Then the last few years it just dwindled with old customers dying off, business guys not being sent to London (they would pop in to me on their way home and spend a few quid). Advertised regularly in Railway Modeller, etc., but just died off. Was there till end of 2016. Don't think there is a model shop now in Central London.
@@railracerI was one of your customers many years ago
Honestly, they should have done N scale and competed with Graham Farish.
If they had provided a cheaper way into n scale, even if it meant a reduction in detail as with railroad, I would have shaken their collective hand off for it.
Pretty pointless given Farish and Bachmann have it pretty sown up with much bigger resources.
That would have been interesting! I wonder/assume if they picked TT because it wasn't already being tapped by their competition here in the UK though,
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@ianhudson2193 funny you say that: thats exactly why märklin never entered the N market and made Z instead. They didn't want to become just another manufacturer of N.
And what would they make in N? More of the same naff? N in Britain is always on the periphery, realistically there's not much room there.
A scale Hornby could possibly have looked at could've been S. Not so space consuming as 0. More mass and feel than 00: that more for your money feel. And if they'd made it as a process of larger 00 with its railway layout connotations, rather than a small 0 with its hyper detailed, expensive, and more adult enthusiast connotations
I tried N yonks back. Great if the scenery through which trains run floats your boat and OK for modern outline, but tbh, N gauge steam outline has never impressed me.
I feel like you are not being impartial and have already made up your mind about TT. I love TT and it will only grow!
You're presenting a particular narrative with those poll results that doesn't feel entirely grounded. Yes, 88% are choosing to stick with their established scale. It would unthinkable to expect 20-30% of existing modellers to move entirely to a new scale in 12 months. So that isn't a meaningful metric. Likewise, "only 2% choosing to switch" - I'm surprised it's as high as that. Hornby were explicit about the commercial positioning for TT - they intend to attract new people to the hobby with it. On that, according to your poll, 11% of respondents are beginning to model in TT. Add in the 2% switchers, and 13% of your 2,000 or so polled respondents are claiming to be spending their money on TT. That's more than one in eight. Yes, it's a single sample set, but they surprisingly favourable figures for Hornby. I am a regular viewer, and I recognise/understand the recent general antipathy towards Hornby's commercial model and pricing strategy (although the emotive rhetoric about "holding customers in contempt" is unnecessary and beneath this channel's long established journalistic standards). But let's be careful not to fall into confirmation bias by selectively highlighting a handful of metrics in a set of results that is otherwise (surprisingly) favourable.
Yeah that’s fair to say - the results are definitely up for interpretation! They don’t look that positive to me, but maybe those stats are more impressive than I thought. What do you mean about holding customers in contempt? I don’t think I made that point in this video, unless I did?
I hope it is a success. I haven't started in any guage yet, TT sounds just right. Hope they do collaborate.
Sam, you are incredibly awesome. Without you I would have never brought my accurascale locomotives.
Thank you so much! :D
Sam has never let me down with a recommendation. The hobby wouldn't be the same without him
@@pemboart I 100% agree. He is a bright light in a hobby of dying candles 🥸
I was at the Glasgow model railway show today which had a lot of TT gauge with much more variety than stated here
I was also there, saw peco and hornby had a small selection, It can’t remember anything else …
The wee layout at the Hornby stand was simple, but it looked a quality product
Agree there should be more introductions to maintain momentum . Clearly Hornby don’t have the manufacturing capacity for this , but I think it will come , I’ve just seen the HST and 50 which is imminent . I blame Simon Kohler for this . There should have been an 0-6-0 to accompany the A3 and A4 . For modern image I don’t understand the 50. It should have been a 37 47 and HST to get some mommentun going . However apparently sets are selling as soon as they are in stock, so I think that it’s quite successfully and has a good future . For me I’m contemplating a TT120 layout but I need a 37 47 and HST along with Blue Grey mk1s before I make the jump . I think it will happen though . I think the 66 will be later though . Again I’d question Kohlers choice of locos to establish the scal . I’d have gone HST Mk3s , 37 47 Mk1s A3 A4 tank engine , 08
Once again, Why don't you put up the money?
I'm one of those who's decided to model TT alongside 00 and N. I quite like the scale, and if I was starting from scratch in my attic I'd definitely be considering TT instead of 00 (N is just a little too small for my eyes in the attic!) I agree that smaller locos (a Jinty, 45xx or J72 for example) etc would be a good idea, and definitely something that isn't LNER (I'd like a Black 5, but then I would...). If I was Hornby, I'd be targeting the train set market more heavily with TT.
Homes are getting smaller, N isn't often available in toy shops or high street catalogues, many outside the hobby aren't really aware of anyone other than Hornby. I've overheard a few parents telling kids they haven't got room for a train set, and if Hornby pushed the idea that TT was a smaller but just as usable alternative, and concentrated on TT sets for Christmas presents rather than 00, they might kick start the scale.
They could also make more of the fact that for those with smaller houses and older eyes TT would fit better and be more visible than N.
2 discussion videos in and I'm already keen for the next in this series! There's a hell of a lot you can say about this hobby and such videos help with awareness
Hornby also own Arnold they do TT120 too and some really good container wagons which could easily be a joint release .they also need some southern and great Western locos ASAP. I don't know why they didn't do a mk1 restaurant coach either.great vid Sam.
Why don't you put up the money?
@paullubliner6221 couldn't afford it .
TT is big on the Continent and with modellers of 3'6" gauge railways, using N gauge track and mechanisms. There's also people using Hornby TT mechs and chassis and track for 00 scale 3'6" and metre gauge.
I am an 00 scale blue era diesel modeller. Space and money has forced me to either build micro layouts or go N gauge. I saw tt120 at Warley and was interested. If the range is cheaper than 00 and a Class 121/122 DMU and a Class 25 became available I am in. Think Hornby should do a deal with peco and have peco produce most of the wagons freeing up some investment cash for Hornby to concentrate on the loco's. I understand the reasoning behind the Mallard and Flying Scottsman models as my brother-in-law is a "train set" buyer and has 1 of the sets and will buy the other. I think Hornby are trying to get new poeple in on the hobby as well as the traditional modellers, but you need more variety to get existing modellers to part with their cash or like me change scale. I will watch out for new releases with interest.
I am from the continent and I think most us were quite excited when Hornby announced to join the TT community. It is not a big one ( in comparison to H0 or N) but we have few excellent manufacturers and the overall quality is quite high. I was amoung the first ones who purchased the wonderfull Pullman coaches. Here Hornby did an excellent job.
Unfortunatelly on the steam locomotives they made a huge mistake. They simple copied their 00 scale model, what is far away from the quality standards in today’s TT world. In TT the manufacturers many decades ago solved the problem with a 4-6-2 wheel arrangement, Hornby did not ( wheater in 00 nor in TT). They should just study the TT models in their corporation (Arnold TT). This model for us is far away from the expected quality or model fidelity. I know for you the priority is mostly on painting and livery, on the continent for is also important the technical accuracy and also the internal construction like drive chain, flywheels, wheel arrangement etc. Here Hornby’s solutions are not up to date.😮
Also the selection of diesels is not very lucky. Those huge modern 6 axle locomotives do not fit exactly the age of the offered wonderfull small freigth wagons and probably not the first TT layouts in UK. Sam you are right, smaller steam and diesel locomotives would fit much better the market and create more business. I hope Hornby revises their TT plans for the future and will offer up to date models also for us, outside of UK.
I hope Hornby offers some up to date models for people IN the UK.... If you want to attract new younger modellers you need to offer the sort of trains you can see on the railways today. TT120 has space for big mainline modern image layouts - that's where the focus should be, not on replicating stuff that already exists in larger or smaller scales.
Look at Pete Waterman's exhibition layouts - big modern prototypes. He might prefer 7mm Western steam era models for his own layout - so do I - but that's not what he presents for the public. If it's to survive TT120 has to be a modern image scale to separate itself from the other scales and find its own niche. If you're cramped for space and you haven't already made use of the superb N gauge models available maybe it's not just space you're short of , it's motivation and creativity. I can't think of anything more tedious than people scratching around wanting to build a TT120 branch line and whining about not being able to get a Pannier or a Jinty. What a waste of a scale.
Finally I recall that in a Railway Modeller article a while ago Simon Kohler was reported as saying that there was no market research done prior to Hornby committing to TT120. The decision was based on instinct and years of model railway marketing experience. Really? I mean really!!!!????? Simon of course has now parted company with Hornby. Make of that what you will.
@@cathybrind2381
I fully agree with you. Problem is that the new trains are extremely long while our space is still the same. While on a real station a real high speed train from 7-9 coaches is still a short train, in TT it is more than 4 feet long just the train. Or if one wants to have a modern class 66 locomotive it is slowly longer as two
modern container wagons , that means a big powerful machine will pull 3-4 wagons and will occupy the whole station.
Greetings from the US, I've noticed it's a bit of a struggle to find Hornby models here in the states. Even online the pickings are slim on Hornby's US website. TT scale would be out of the question as there is no equivalent here while HO and N scale tracks and models are mostly compatible with their Hornby counterparts. The biggest hurdle in me getting into the hobby is that my favorite railway location and time period is early and mid 20th century UK, when the most beautiful steam engines, like the Flying Scottsman, were in their prime. Models and scenery related to this period and location aren't typically in stock at the local hobby shop (of which there are too few).
I guess one year in, it's difficult to tell whether TT scale will work. I certainly hope so. It really does need more players in the game - competition - range - market development - promotion - kits - sel-build parts.
The TT market in Britain is currently minuscule but it is a major global scale. Hornby are selling UK TT trains abroad, apparently The Flying Scotsman is popular, and Arnold have been given a push. OO is at saturation…it will never be a global seller. I suspect TT is Hornby’s bid for a future.
I remember seeing this advertised for the first time back in the early 90’s, but I have yet to see an actual TT scale layout; at least here in the US.
I am not too into the hobby, I mostly watch your videos, but if I were to get into it fully, I think TT would be my preferred scale. Its not AS expensive, and its pretty small, perfect if you dont have too much space.
TT120 not all that far behind OO gauge in terms of price
Love that you made your attic into a useable room! Was considering the same with our attic. Pleasexplain the gauges for us unknowledgeable.
I think that going with TT was a mistake. It's just too niche. Not only does it have to compete with both OO and N, its niche of being "smaller than OO but less fiddly than N" is already partially filled by OO9, which is arguably better at filling that niche, as it allows a OO scale layout to be built in and N scale space.
A better choice would have been N scale. Looking around at the retailers, there certainly room for another manufacturer. It has a slight benefit in space, as you can get more N scale in a given space than TT. I imagine if Hornby is trying to appeal to a new younger market, then the fiddlyness of N wouldn't be much of a problem. N has the advantage of having an established market, would still have the advantage of lower price.
It was odd Hornby didn't want to do N gauge. Buchanan and Dapol showed how good N gauge modeling is yet Hornby didn't want to join them.
@@gerogyzurkov2259 it's probably because they wanted their own scale where they could be the sole manufacturer.
@@williambabcoke248 Hornby did the numbers I guess but I guess the numbers hasn't shown yet.
Honestly hornby should of done HO Guage for Europe and other countries execpt North America cause of their Lionel
They have it in their portfolio just under another brand name and that has produced some British outline classics.
Thanks Sam for your look at the recent Hornby TT scale line & your reviews of the actual models. Very informative video you made. BTW, I like your videos, always enjoyable & well done. Best regards from a UK model railway fan in British Columbia, Canada.
I like the idea of TT. Still may model it but not quite enough in the range to attract me yet.
In Australia, some states operate narrow gauge 3 feet 6 inch gauge railways and TT is perfect scaled down for track and mechanisms. I know of a number of modellers here in my State of Queensland who have bought locos and used them to power models of Queensland trains. I know that would not be a massive amount of people but it is a possible marketing area for Hornby, selling mechanisms for scratchbuilders.
I'm about to embark on a new serious layout after not having anything since I was a teen. I have some very random bits of OO bit not enough to make that sway a decision but there's zero chance I'd go for TT when starting from scratch. N or OO would be the only option for me...
Good points,well presented! I thoroughly agree with you that Hornby, whilst planning to bring out a variety of eras must produce a wider variety of sizes of loco (as you say,the only small engine being the 08).Not everyone wants or can afford to buy bigger engines every time.
I'd like to be able to kitbash chassis for 5.5mm scale and modern, reliable mechanisms would be ideal!
It is too early to be running down Hornby for this new to the U.K. scale. OO is & always has been just wrong, even our N gauge doesn't quite get it right - at last a true scale to gauge which matches the European standard. The couplings also match & TT has a large following in Europe. The class 66 is not made by anyone else & the Europeans are waiting for the euro versions to be announced.
I accept that some of the direction has been poor, not helped by the departure of it's champion Simon Kholer. They have released locos but not the same era rolling stock so making a genuine goods train is difficult. I have today received my first HST set but not the coaches!
Please give this accurate scale a chance & I look forward to running a full HST set in a modern sized house which I couldn't have done with 00.
i have not had a train set since i was a kid in the 80s, (BR Intercity 125) im thinking of starting again with TT, its a nice balance, to me, between OO and N scale. and i dont mind the lack of options at the moment, makes it easier, again, to me, to get into the hobby without there being so many choices i would just get confused and not know what to get first. A slow build up of choices is nicer to begin with i think. My only wish is that they do the Hogwarts Express in TT!!
I had a good look at TT at MRS a few days back.
An I must say I was impressed.
If I was starting again, and the available models were more readily available I’d go for it.
BUT, I am far far too far down the line with N gauge …
And if I’m going for a second layout it would be O gauge , in the garden …
The same has been said of N scale by Chris Leigh of Model Rail a few years ago when he wanted to model a Southern location. I got into TT to model Polish railways and there is a lot more available than in N. For me, I think it will be preferable to both N and 00 due to the size factor.
I was at Model Rail Scotland today, and the only TT120 layouts I can remember seeing, were the ones on the Hornby Stand, Hornby magazine stand and the Peco stand!
Yeah but it’s still pretty new .it’s going to take a while to establish the range .😊
You missed Nove Mesto na nedostatku and the BR sidings one, then.
Yip I was there too.
The little layout at the Hornby stand was pretty simple, but from what I saw the models looked to be of very good quality. But for serous modellers, who need a range of locos / stock to ti their region / epoch TT is gonna be really difficult
I'm not sure that your 12% is as bad as you think it is. It's certainly a self selecting group of people that voted but from the comments on here I'm quite sure there are plenty of commenters and voters happy to see TT fail and Hornby go out of business! You have a subscriber base of nearly 150k and some estimates put modellers or model layouts in the UK upwards of 250k so 12% of that would make it around 30k customers which makes a very decent size market.
The current situation reminds of when I got into N gauge in the early 2000s. There was very little modern image stock that I could count as worth owning in terms of quality and the first few years were buying cheaper older stuff and then selling it on as better stock slowly came from Farish and Dapol. It was not until Dapol produced the Voyager in 2007 four or five years later that I felt that modern N gauge had aririved and even then had to wait for Revolution to deliver the Pendolino 10 years after that before I had all of the stock I really needed.
Currently model in HOe, HOm and 7/8ths....wanted to give TT british theme a go with compact layout....can't be done when the steam locos require R2...Hornby, give me an 0-4-0 or 0-6-0 and I am all in.
I think it was a mistake because I don’t think a lot are just going to drop everything they have in oo probably years of collecting and building to start a new scale with not a lot of stuff
Great video! How about 3D printed 'own-build'? - would it be possible and/or practicable to re-size your own wonderful 'Problem' loco for TT? Would the wheels/moter issues be insuperable?
I was honestly very surprised that Hornby came out with TT, considering that British TT has been pretty much dead since Triang stopped its’ range in the 1960s.
The models really do look lovely, but I do feel it’s a very niche scale in the U.K, squished in between 00 & N….
At least being a fresh start, it doesn’t have the scale/gauge discrepancies of “legacy” 00 & N!
It seems their releases so far haven’t much of a common theme, so that may also be an issue. For example, you could mix Hornby TT with European TT…. I think Hornby could have taken advantage of that with a Eurostar, Le Shuttle & Channel Tunnel freights!
Interesting views on this subject. TT120 is a scale I would like to try but the problem for me is its availability. Here in Australia there are only a handful of shops which stock Hornby TT120 so getting my hands on it is a bit tricky. But even with that it is something I would still have a go at but it probs wont be a scale I'll stick to in the long run.
Looks like a great gamble.
Seems like they wanted something that would make them practically the only supplier in a certain scale since there aren''t too many manufacturers in this scale, particularly when it comes to British models.
For that to succeed you can't just bring out only different schemes but you need to do a comprehensive line.
Seems quite tricky.
I'm an American. The TT-scale trains sound, to my ears, like a nice entry for foreign modelers to get into a British outline diorama layout. A diesel shunter, some wagons, and a DMU, could make for a sweet end of line layout in a compact space.
What I'm not hearing, however, is what the availability of track components and structures are. Hornby could have a 100 locomotives and thousands of coaches and wagons to pick from, but if the only track options are straight, one radius of curves, and #4 switches, there ain't much play value in that. And the same goes for structures - albeit, it's way easier to make a building out of paper than it is to lay your own track.
The last "new" scales I can recall were T (1:450) still very much a novelty, and On30 which made use of existing HO (1:87.1) track and O (1:48) structures.
I think that TT:120 could have had a more inspiring launch if Hornby - or the trio of their wannabe competitors, had launched with a theme not readily available in other scales. How about British broad-gauge? Could that have used HO/OO track??? What about modeling the London Underground? A TT Underground could be added to an OO layout without the scale difference being a problem. Just as On30" tends to focus on American narrow gauge in a less fiddly form than finescale HOn3, ect, British TT could become the scale of rapid transit and tram modelers. It could always expand to mainline stock, but carving a niche is always more productive than trying to be everything to everyone in a gap between two strong competitors. At that, Hornby would have better odds going up to S (1:64) than down to TT.
Hornby's track range is expanding, but it's also not the only option out there. Roco, Tillig, and Peco each offer TT track systems with flex track. There's lots of variety.
The manufacturers need to get with the times. I think kids these days don't see/know a lot of the locos/rolling stock. The newer stuff is what they see, I really think they need to add more modern items.
Sam your wrong about the set at the retailer, a few days ago I try to buy the eastern set and Rails of Sheffield and TMC didn't have any in stock it was only on pre order,All they had was the flying Scotsman sets which I don't want, I wanted the eastern set but no where has got it.
Ahh sorry for that - they were all in stock at the time of filming as you can see!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains one other thing, I phone rails of Sheffield and TMC and they told me that the eastern set was pre order only and they didn't have any in stock, that was about a week and a half ago
That makes sense, as this video was filmed and written over 2 weeks ago, when both sets were available at Hornby and Rails, so have only gone out of stock just recently.
I build gunpla as well as model railroading so tt scale fits better with my other hobbies. I'll be focusing on tt now that it's available.
To me, I think Hornby had a great opportunity to bring in Kadee style couplers to the British model railway scene and it would have made a massive improvement on the tradtional sytle of British couplers that are in use today.
Uncoupling locos or wagons with Kadee couplers is a breeze compared to the existing British ones.
I find it astonishing Hornby wanted to try and introduce TT scale to the UK! Especially since 3mm 1/100 scale has gained somewhat of a following, based on Tri-Ang TT. Although all 3mm scale models are kit builds or scratchbuilt.
TT saw success mostly in Germany and Eastern Europe with Berliner TT Bahnen, now owned by Tillig. Piko and Kuehn. TT scale in America is limited to scratchbuilt models and older models produced prior to the emergence on N scale.
I am surprised Hornby made a TT class 66 but no wagons to go with it, as the TTA tankers and HAA hoppers rarely worked with 66s before retirement. They did choose to make era 3/4 rolling stock, but no goods loco to pull them aside from the 08 shunter. They probably should've developed a goods steam loco like an 8F for range launch instead of a 66. The 66 should've been a year 2 announcement with more modern era rolling stock like container flatbeds and bogie hoppers.
History is full of companies which have spent so much on a new product it has caused the company to fail. I hope this does not prove to be the case with Hornby and they are right to be cautious. Its a long term project to secure a new generation in the hobby. Kids start with a train set for Christmas and stay at the same scale. Other scales have huge competition, not least from secondhand stock. For some time TT can only be bought new from Hornby which secures a revenue stream. I hope Hornby secures enough sales to stay in profit and continue to develop our hobbies.
To make a new standard you need 2 things:
1) It must be free and open to be used by anyone, particularly other competitor manufacturers.
2) You need to make a conscious effort to get those other manufacturers onboard.
Without those you'll never get the market penetration needed.
This is not a criticism merely a thought you might want to consider. The original concept of TT i.e Table top was first mooted in Triang days. One of the Locomotives that Triang released was the Princess range I have the old and modern version- I suggest you actually look at both and measure them against each other and the reason that Hornby Triang did not pursue that scale is belied by N gauge. Now I can't manage N gauge and the OO gauge is my preferred albeit somewhat inaccurate by scale.
British outline in scale with the rails. I'M IN. OO from a front view has always been a mess - familiar shapes (A4s, Castles Duchesses etc apparently running on 3'6" narrow gauge was never an appealing part of OO modelling).in scale. This is just superb. PS - as an Eastern Region modeller, I see nothing wrong whatsoever with the first two steam choices ;-)
Sorry, but you are exaggerating.
If you just look at the details, you got different typs of A1 and A4, so six different forms of steam engines and one Class08 shunter. Not to mention the different colors and epochs. So three locos is far understated.
Also you really forgot to mention the large TT market in middle Europe. These ar no UK Models but fully compatible to the Hornby TT, even the coupling is the same in Austria, Germany, Chez Republic and in the Netherlands.
If you do not like the track system of Hornby (which is quite good), you can also choose the track system of Peco (UK), three different kinds of track systems of Tillig (Germany), or the track system of Roco ( Austria , former Kuehn- Germany ). Those systems are compatible to each other.
Supply supporting companies in TT-Scale are Tillig, Piko, Peco, Roco, Kres, Arnold (also Hornby), PSK Modelbouw, MTB, Hädl, Igra Model, Schirmer, Busch, Noch, Sommerfeldt, Viessmann, Auhagen, MKB Modelle, Artitec, and a lot of small companies like Karsei, ModelScene, JM Detail, etc..
This market is anything but small.
For me it seems, that you didn't do any research for the video.
Sorry, but good journalism looks different.
No, they’re the same models with variations - if someone isn’t interested in the LNER Gresley Pacifics, then the A1/3 and livery variations won’t help them… that was the point, sorry you missed it. Having European models available will not help someone looking to model a British railway - so what does the European market have to do with it?
I’m sorry you think the video wasn’t researched, but I’m afraid it was, carefully! You are entitled to your opinions.
You just have contradicted yourself in a single sentence. So you are agreeing there is a larger palette to choose from than you spoke of in the video.
And about the European market, Arnold just release container waggons which travel on both sides of the English Channel. Also you are missing the ferry boat carriages of Arnold. But I was refering mainly to the tracks and to the accesories. There you can find a lot useful things like bridges, street lamps, turntables, buildings, which can also be used in a UK scenery.
So you have to admit, your research was and is poor.
How many TT 120 users did you speak to Sam? I'm not having a go, but you did make statements that someone from the TT community would have corrected you on.
I don't understand why they didn't go for HO. There is obviously a HUGE market for that across the world. Look at the cost of the Malklin Flying Scotsman. They could have produced the first two models and marketed them across the world and that would have financed the rest of the range.
I think with Hornby's TT-Scale the issue is what era are they trying to launch with? An A3 and A4 plus a Gronk? Wouldn't it of made more sense to produce an era such as 80's BR Blue where multiple engines could of been produced and then modellers could then produce their own railway layouts with all new scenary buildings etc that's been made available with the TT range?
Seems like someone at Hornby has a favourite loco A3/4 and put that before actually any common sense.
Talking about locomotives, they should have a goods locomotive to go along with the goods wagons that they are already selling. An 0-6-0 might be a solid choice
I really like concept of something between OO/HO and N, for the most the reasons you list, but like many on this channel I’ve already invested thousands in my current layout.
If I was completely starting all over again maybe.
Sam, The big reason for TT is that there are plenty of European TT Models from companies like Arnold, ROCO, Tillig and Piko. The big advantage of this is that they are all the same scale and use the same coupling, so they can be mix and match without drama.
Having said that, I am in agreeance with what you said. Hornby just got greedy, and it may end them.
I was very keen when TT was first announced I model U.S. N scale and was looking at building a 1940s U.K. 00 shunting layout (I didn't have space for a big layout) so TT was the answer!.
A year on and no steam tank engine for the proposed layout and nothing looking hopeful in the near future, so it looks like 009 will be filling the void for me some gorgeous models being released and plenty of choice.
I find it strange that the guy who launched TT120 with great gusto and energy then left Hornby.
My background in computing leads me to ask if this is Hornby's "MSX moment".
In the late 80s, several BIG Japanese manufacturers (and they didn't come much bigger than Sony, for example - R&D budget in 10 figures at the time) collaborated to produce a home computer specification called MSX. The idea was simple and SHOULD have worked - instead of lots of incompatible home computers, make a batch of machines that can ALL run the same software, so that different software developers could release titles developed on one machine, and have them run without modification on ALL the MSX machines.
Even with vast mountains of Japanese corporate cash behind it, MSX was a marketplace flop. Because even more mountains of corporate cash was being piled into PC compatibles, with faster processors and LOTS more memory than could be attached to a Z80. And, the same pitfall befell MSX that strangled some other notable 80s computer launches - the hardware was ready, but no software to speak of.
I suspect Hornby is trying to "do an MSX" with the TT120 scale, but without the multi-company collaboration and the mountains of cash. This does NOT bode well for the future if so.
As big as the Japanese companies involved in MSX were, they were up against two massive financial Imperial Star Destroyers of the era - Microsoft and Intel. Who were in a position to sway the market to their whims.
Hornby doesn't appear to have that problem to worry about, unless someone here knows of a mega-competitor I haven't heard of. But they DO have the other problems. Think of the track as the hardware, and the models as the software. The analogy fits to a possibly dangerous extent.
I hope they DO pull this off, because no one wants to see Hornby go under, it's a trans-generational institution that delivered for a lot of people over many years, but I'm worried that too much pinstripe thinking is hobbling the company.
I'd hate to see Hornby go down because it is a major player and there are good people who work there. However, I can't help but wonder if they really thought things through with how this was rolled out. Steam locos are great for those of us who can remember steam being on the railways every day but that was over half a century ago! Model railways are not cheap and they compete head on with computer games for peoples hobby time. There are 3 billion people around the world who routinely game on - line.
To win a new following, manufacturers have got to make their products directly relevant to people who don't know about the hobby.. That surely means modelling what they see everyday? So start with Era 11, market it properly with social media and Tv advertising, get exhibition layouts in public access spaces such as shopping malls and sports centres (where parents and kids go together) with info on "How can I get into this?" readily and freely available.
TT could work, but the manufacturers must co-operate and get high profile ambassadors for the hobby who are far more relevant and attractive to a wider audience involved.
I wish them luck!!
An insightful and well put-together video, here, as always.
When I first found out that Hornby were bringing out a range in TT I must admit that I started to grind my teeth! Yes, the quality of the models is there and I fully understand their caution because of the costs of developing this range, but I couldn't help wondering that if Hornby were going to be sticking their neck out in this way then why not have a crack at producing HO scale instead? After all, HO scale has a massive following around the world, and could perhaps get international modellers interested instead of being confused about OO? Personally I have nothing against OO modellers at all, but I'm and avid British-outline HO modeller and I also make other HO scale models besides the trains, and in HO this is far better catered for (Like cars and trucks, which are not treated as a railway accessory but a branch of modelling in their own right), but let's face it, OO is a "Mongrel" scale and the problems that led to it's creation have long since been solved. It would be interesting to see what happens with TT in the coming years...
I think it has the potential to replace N gauge for newcomers to the hobby but they do need to focus on expanding the range, maybe when there are 15-20 locomotives you could say it had critical mass to survive but its a question of it reaches it before the plug is pulled.
I'm getting back into railway modeling and was thinking of going TT120 as I don't really have room for 00. But having looked at the loco stock available I've decided against it and gone for N scale where there are plenty of diesel locos and stock to choose from.
Also Continental models, off-the-shelf (or by post).
Thanks for an interesting video.
I expect Hornby did a lot of market research and I'm sure I'm not a member of their main target demographic.
I can see how starting with a Flying Scotsman set would appeal to some.
But then adding an A4 is a marginal expansion of customer choice.
The 08 is then a good expansion of customer choice. but away from preserved lines, they're only used for shunting.
After the A3, I would have gone for a steam era mixed traffic loco and a modern(ish) era mixed traffic main line diesel.
I would also be tempted to stick to prototypes that can easily be seen running today.
You didn't mention the Arnold TT range of locos many of which, despite a high price, are now down to the last few
Yeah true - do they make many British prototypes??
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrainsNo. Until Hornby goes on it, TT was a scale ideal if you want to model GDR prototypes from 1950 to 1990 (and some East European ones too). Or get the chassis to to HO metre gauge rolling stock, great sport in France in the 1970s and the 1980s. That is one of the reasons why I have serious doubts about the future of UK TT scale.
I will be more upbeat, 13% of your poll are modelling in TT is what I saw with your numbers versus 88% not (ignoring your rounding errors). Give it a few years yet. Very difficult and unpredictable times for all. But yes great shame Hornby did not coordinate products with others to establish and benefit manufacturers, shops and modellers alike….All the best Stephen
Fantastic video looking forward to the live stream tomorrow
TT is a great idea but I think we all smelt a failure to launch a mile way. There is so much avaliable in N and OO including a vibrant secondhand market. I don't see it kicking off against the realities of the situation despite it being a good idea. Especially if other manufacturers don't get deeply involved.
I hear the Fraser Group have bought more shares in Hornby? They currently sell some Hornby products in their GAME shops. Could this further investment mean more funds for further development of the TT range?
I think that Hornby should look at how popular their 'Old' and far less detailed models from the 1960s are still? If these were still available, but with a slower gearing on the old faithful XO 4 motors (or a 5 pole version) It may be an answer? The public want models that will last a lifetime, not ones that get broken unpacking them? It's a terrible pity that the old molds were scrapped by some genius between then and now? The management should look at Oscar Paisley's or Mr. Snooze's channels to see what many modellers actually prefer to enjoy.. Fine scale collectors do a great job ,with fantastic (and very expensive) layouts, but they are not "everyone"? Most of us, just can't afford it....
You hit the nail on the head... The range simply isn't big enough to entice people in.
For example, my interests are primarily GWR/SR/LMS Steam and modern image. The Hornby TT range has effectively only 2 models that fit my interests, the 08 in DB and GBRf liveries. Rolling stock wise, the TTA tankers are technically right, but they don't actually match with the two liveries of the 08s!
Why would I bother getting into TT when I could get in to N or OO which have a myriad of models that fit my interests.
Hornby needed to release everything they had announced right at the start, and had a 2nd wave waiting in the wings...
Or they should have just entered the N Gauge market.
As another thought, a longtime modeler did a video a while ago that hit a poignant note on how the hobby is strong and there is a market, but the solution should be contemporary offerings-get kids in by giving them what they would see nowadays with Azumas, Class 90s, etc. They might enjoy historic stuff in time, but that would might be an interesting way to grow TT rather than the same era steam as OO, just in another scale.
Excellent channel sam really enjoy your views on things.
Hornby N scale would have been the safer financial option surely
I genuinely believe TT is the perfect scale for the pros listed at the start of the video. I think Hornby and peco need to make 20 locos. 5 locos per region during the big four. 1 in those 5 being pre grouping locos, and all 20 available in a vast array of liveries, similar to the current rapido approach. I think just this will expand the range enough to get a lot more people interested.
Something I'd love to see is another new scale. Sort of. I personally think that even with the detail that O gauge is so big it looses a bit of the charm of oo gauge so, I'd love to see 5.5mm scale fleshed out for standard gauge.
I like the idea of the TT, can create a fairly big layout but not take up as much room... but as Sam has said, the lack of loco's, rolling stock etc just doesn't give enough interest imo
I'm sticking with OO and OO9; branching into another scale would be too expensive and it's smaller size would strain my aging eyesight! Hornby's anti-competitive practices are crazy, it is the large range of different products that are available for OO that attracts me to it and keeps me buying Hornby items to use with those of other manufacturers.
If they had launched it for families like Simon originally suggested in the intro maybe it would have sold well initially? Confess they do look fantastic. They were better off making a simpler and 'cheaper' railroad style group of models first and foremost. This i think shows the issue, they couldn't actually decide who these were actually for. Families or serious modellers. My guess was this may have led to the two employees doing a runner.
BUT.. No mention that TT has been around a long time and there is a strong TT gauge society.
There isnt just much range of trains and rolling stock, OO has literal tons of trains and rolling stock.
if they can just scale down the existing archived designs without additional work it may work for them. Just order and produce.
Nah that can’t be done unfortunately - the details and detail parts would all have to be adjusted and redesigned, and all new tooling would have to be developed and tested etc. The cads from the OO models would be a good starting point, but still tonnes of work involved!
Roco do tt which Hornby now own so should have loads of models to produce
When will Hornby learn? I just watched your 14XX railroad plus model review and then this.
If I was a majority shareholder I’d be making some strong changes in their management team around (or before) now.
Well, the 14xx sold out fast, as did a lot of the first TT sets and models, so shareholders won’t be too unhappy.
@@MrLoewietje take a look at their financial results before making that conclusion...
@@dj_efk I’m only addressing the claim of the 14XX and the TT-range. The management has been changed. Shareholders want products that sell, both do, so the problem must be elsewhere.
The a3 and a4 used the same chassis?
in this day and age, I've have thought Hornby would have followed 'lean start up' to test customer desirability - and validate all the killer assumptions such as some of your points - including switching costs.. i'd put money on Hornby killing it. It will never be business viable - just because you can doesn't mean you should
I think TT will run put of steam (pardon the pun). I don't think many people currently modelling in any scale will be prepared to jump over to this scale and then wait patiently for 10 years to finally have the models they want in the scale. TT was a solution to a problem that had already been solved, ie N gauge offering a smaller scale for a downsize from OO.
I think TT is a great scale, because as you said you can fit more in, keep the detail and not as fiddly as N. BUT, I feel Hornby killed it themselves by A - Releasing "trainset" locos, B - Announcing everything and scaring off other potential manufacturers (i.e. Heljan).
I know its easier to say now, but Hornby should have select a few common locos (say Class 37, 47, 08, Black 5, A3 (for trainsets) and a Pannier tank), along with "common" wagons and coaches. This way they could have kept a lot more people catered for, in more eras and this would have probably kick started the gauge more.
I was going to go into it, but then when Hornby basically turned it into flogging trainsets and aren't releasing anything meaningful modern image for a long time, this put me off..... for now.
I have come into model railways because of TT120, buying the Easterner set in October 2022. The size is right and I am happy to wait as the range develops. I have the Duchess class and HST on pre-order . I have spent hundreds of pounds on base boards, NCE Powercab DCC controller, track, buildings, signals, scenery. I can run a loco and five/six coaches in a simialr length Running a loco and three coaches in 00 and have a longer run of track. if Hornby doesn't keep the British models going, I will buy european models and run a continental model railway. As someone new to the hobby, I have been amazed at how may people are so anti-TT120. what does it matter to them?? I would not expect many, if any one who invested lots of money in N or OO to swap over to what is untried scale launch. I have other hobbies and I want a low key model railway to enjoy. A few locos that I like, running at the same time. steam and diesel together. with UA-cam videos bemoaning the death of model railwaying, patience and support for a new endeavour is what is needed. In my humble opinion (but then, I am only a 50 something, looking start a pleasurable hobby).
I suspect that few people are 'anti TT:120', rather you are correct that few people wants to start from scratch in a new scale, whether TT:120 can sustain itself on new entrants to the hobby is the crux of the matter.
The problem is, that we can't all afford "hundreds of pounds" for our hobby? Especially with the added cost of DCC? A "basic" set is what most children want?
Hi Sam. It’s not uncommon for you to take some heat for your views, and usually I find I tend to agree. However here, I hope you don’t mind, but some of the analysis is questionable. From your own survey 6% of your viewers are brand new to the hobby because of TT120. Is there anything you can think of in the last 25 years that has INCREASED the hobby base in that way? In addition, at the start there wa as huge fuss over TT120 cannibalising sales of 00. But Hornby felt that unlikely, and only 2% have switched. Further the Peco and Hornby wagons are not actually the same - very similar I grant you, but a different length of wheelbase entirely. The aim of TT120 needs to be seen in its broadest perspective - to grow the hobby. It is not so much about establishing another new scale, nor about tearing down the hybrid of British 00 or even N. It is about widening the hobby for new blood. It is doing that. Even the move to retailers - they were hammered at the start for not doing that. And now they are criticised for doing it? Whereas they maintained that it was unsuitable to bring to retailers and expect them to invest in an unproven scale, so Hornby did that part. Now that they can show it sells, retailers are happier to take a selection. It’s NOT meant to take over the hobby, or replace OO. It is meant to grow the hobby. Having said all that - thanks for continuing to cover it. Also I agree the models themselves are largely very good. And I also agree that I’d love it if they could have somehow had a mega launch of a dozen locos and stock!
@gregmacdonald927 - well said! I agree with everything you've put there! Sam is concentrating on the 88% of respondents that aren't interested in TT:120 while ignoring the 11% that are actually modelling in the scale - 11% is a much higher than I would have expected. Alao, another thing about Sam's criticism of opening up TT:120 to retailers is that this was always in Hornby's plans - there is a early TT Talk video where Simon Kohler actually states that once the scale is established then Hornby would begin to sell TT:120 via retailers.
As person from Germany i will kindly mention that TT is on the go especially in eastern Germany ( and eastern Europe also). Hornby is promoting their TT program in German Internet shops.
TT seems to be doing well in the DACH/Eastern Europe regions, with PIKO alone having close to 100 locos in their lineup.
Wie viel Deutsche Sammler will Britisch TT kaufen? Kann mir nicht viel vorstellen. Ich habe Hornby TT nie in deutschen Modellbahn Laden gesehen.
@@jonathanwebb8307Indeed. I ended up practically having to apologise for being English because of the looks I got regarding Hornby whenever I took my nephews to model shops in Hamburg. From as soon as they could crawl (2004ish) and every one of the following two decades.
Verdammte Hornby!
@@jonathanwebb8307 modellbahnshop-lippe, modellbahn-voigt etc.
Its a case of go big or go home, you have to have a large range to start off or not bother unless you have other manufacturers adding to it.
That's it, they seem to still think it's the 70's. It doesn't matter so much that they're from just one manufacturer, but you need a decent range so you can build a representative collection to run a layout with. Having an just express loco and a shunter doesn't cut it. That's a train set, not a model railway.
So - don't model duplicates as spoilers, you mean?
@@blatherskite9601 That too, yes.
A great example is 009, there are several manufacturers making great narrow gauge models, which are many times sold out within weeks or even before launch.
same as Hornby's TT range, then, that's one reason for the delays in more locos, the fact that demand exceeded production and they had to use some of the pre booked slots to make more of the original range.@@darreno9874
The Hornby TT layout at Model Rail Scotland today had a Scotsman and a Valenta HST. The sound fitted Valenta HST sounded superb. I was really impressed. It would be a shame if TT failed.
These HSTs are imminent . But I really want a 37 and 47 before I consider it - a Met Camm 101 would be good too
If Hornby wanted to make a really good go at TT they should have kept the Thomas license and lauched it in TT
i don’t think they had a choice 💀
Watch Bachmann pick up a TT license for Thomas and Friends.
trouble is they probably lost the license in the first place because they wouldn't update the models.
One thing I have heard is that the reason they keep changing Thomas models brands (Take and Play etc) was to keep the faces looking more like the new style. Hornby never really changed the Thomas models up until the last release where Thomas got his footplate painted.
So if Hornby acquired the TT license for Thomas, they would have to make the models essentially exclusive for Thomas characters or have some bizarre models as "industrial tank engine of obscure origin".
And Bachman have N Scale Thomas anyway.
Bachmann got Thomas licence after ending with Hornby.
@@rodimussupreme2329 They don’t need a license for TT, it’s nothing exclusive to Hornby, the question is one of if it’d sell well, HO/OO and N are both big markets, G not so much, but they still sell G scale Thomas stuff, so it must sell well, with TT only recently making a comeback Bachmann would need to develop all new toolings, not to mention it might not be what people want, most Thomas modellers I’ve seen model OO/HO, N, G or O, all markets which have had T&F ready-to-run models for donkey’s years (OO/HO by Hornby and Bachmann, N by Bachmann and Tomix, O by Lionel, and G by Bachmann), so would they want to make the move to TT?
TT:120 has brought me back in to the hobby. Absolutely love the scale !
I wonder if this was an idea of Simon Kohler’s which he managed to persuade Hornby management to invest in? Now he and Montana have left, the PlayTrains range has since been dropped. Will TT:120 go the same way, despite the investment by both Hornby and those who bought it?
From Roger
They should have invested in better supporting N gauge, which is very badly served by the producers.
Good topic. I don’t think this is as big a gamble as it may seem. Hornby owns Arnold, and I think that if things were to go south for Hornby, they can get Arnold to continue production in TT 120. I think the key here is the scale. I have recently purchased a few of Arnold’s container wagons in TT scale, and they match perfectly with my Hornby TT. Now that Roco and Piko are starting to produce TT120, along side established companies like Tillig, this scale will grow. Just think, it will now be possible to run British locomotives and rolling stock along side those from Europe. Looking forward to one day being able to run my model train from Beijing to London. Cheers!
N and OO is already burning up my dad's cash, my family will kill me if I get into a new scale. 🤣
Modelrailroading is the best money pit!
haha...the holy trinity for train cash burn.....
For quite a while, the train sets at around £170 were always out of stock but you could still buy the contents of the sets separately from Hornby but that cost around £300 so that would have put many people off.
Yeah - that's why they made those bundles, to tide them over until the sets came back into stock!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
sets have always been cheaper than buying separately in whatever scale, it's the way things have always been. So your point is?
@thekingdomofostroviainhoe3299 they ment what they wrote that the lack of available sets has resulted in a slower up take of tt, youtube is not twitter haters are less welcome in the comments maybe re read comments before you make an x (twitter) style comment have a nice day😊
I wish Hornby would also produce H0 rolling stock. OO-models seem rather oversized on my H0-layout. Lima had a few British models in H0-scale, I have a few of them, and their size is great.
Yes, this is right, Erik! OO is strange for us continental guys somehow! 😉
And don't forget Jouef used to produce British outline in HO.
@@valentinsn-ostalgiemodellbahnCause at the time HO for British meant certain details couldn't produce well at that scale so they made the model scaled slightly bigger making OO gauge. The evidence that they to keep it at simliar scales is that most 00 gauge locomotive nowadays can use HO scale tracks with almost no issues. Edit Motors couldn't be sized down enough for British models was the main reason for the change of scale.
Sorry wrong info. Hornby owns Rivarossi.
All the attempts to sell British outline HO models failed and soon stopped production.
Lima had massive success once they went OO for UK outline instead of HO.
Fleischman was another unsuccessful UK HO range with just their Warship locomotive and Bullied coaches before they gave up.
The Marklin HO Warship was even more of a disaster. So much wrong with their current A3.
I just happened to think of something. You currently have a VERY unique opportunity here. As TT:120 is still in its infancy, you have a chance to collect EVERY MODEL produced in this scale and be able to also REVIEW every TT:120 scale model. With as much of a following as your channel has, it could help to boost the exposure this scale gets and perhaps even HELP Hornby in this venture!
Good point. But only possible from Hornby.
It would be very difficult and expensive to track down and purchase all the HP products TT 120 range they made from about 1946 to 1964, to give just one other maker of TT120.
true, though I didn't know they made TT120 that long ago. I just meant the newer ones. But thanks for pointing that out!@@johnd8892
I was at a large West Riding model shop the other week where I saw some TT:120 models in the flesh for the first time, and was very impressed by the detail and the general feel of the scale. Chatting to the fella behind the counter he said the range had been an excellent seller.
Once they bring out a grouping era 0-6-0 tank or small goods tender engine I'll buy a bit and set up an inglenook.
You're only looking at Hornby... Spread your wings further afield. Tillig and Piko make loads of TT scale stuff for the European market. 🇪🇺
But how much of what's out there is compatible with what Hornby is making or for trains in the UK exclusively? Also, he mentioned that Peco makes track and cars for TT.
@@AlcoLoco251 Maybe they should talk to TT manufactures on the continent to build up the TT market in UK. There were always such plans, including US market, but all failed exactly because the major modelrailway manufactures blocked the initiatives everywhere.
Hornby purchased dozens of continental manufacturers with knowledge with experience, why they did not discuss these facts internally?
Nobody knows in the Hornby corporation the history of the last 2-3 decades, not to mention the technical solutions what is today common, a standard in model production? Even in TT! Look at the latest PIKO TT models. Different world. Roco also turned back to TT when they purchased the whole product line of Kühn.
So what. British modellers are not going to flock to buy new Euro prototypes otherwise they would already be into HO or N.
Eastern European market mostly. (Uk is still a part of Europe just not the EU, don't make that mistake).
Big market especially in Eastern Germany