The Backlash from Those Defending Purity Culture
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- Опубліковано 15 лип 2024
- It's Bare Marriage episode 233! With the release of so many books critiquing purity culture, what has the backlash been like? Well, let’s talk about it with Zachary Wagner, the author of Non-Toxic Masculinity as we celebrate the one-year anniversary of the launch of She Deserves Better.
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ABOUT ZACHARY WAGNER:
Find Zachary's book Non-Toxic Masculinity
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THINGS MENTIONED IN THE PODCAST:
Our book She Deserves Better!
amzn.to/3JpMUsa
Zachary's response to the review from Shane Morris on The Gospel Coalition
www.zacharycwagner.com/blog/a...
Bob and Dannah Gresh's appearance at Cedarville University
/ pfbid0wrjypmcrhke8r5sp...
Information about Dannah calling 8-year-old's bellies intoxicating
baremarriage.com/2023/03/secr...
Fred Stoeker's appearance on Focus on the Family
baremarriage.com/2023/03/secr...
Matthew West's podcast discussing Modest is Hottest
podcasters.spotify.com/pod/sh...
Abusers always DARVO when confronted by the damage they've done: Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender!. As predictable as the dawn follows the night. Sheila and her family have done a tremendous good in the world and helped a generation to heal. Also, to hear from Zachary is refreshing. We need men of good will to join with us in healing the terrible damage caused by Purity Culture. Bravo, Gregoires and Lindenbachs and all who are standing for love's triumph over evil❤
12:20 "Don't let your life be wrecked by a book. It's a book!"?
Funny how the double standard works: When they published it, they clearly wanted people to take it to heart, yet when taking it to heart caused damage, suddenly it's the fault of the readers for doing what the authors wanted.
Also, you have to wonder whether they would say the same thing about certain books in libraries, or whether they would suddenly be arguing that the books children read can permanently warp their thinking.
Bro, legit minimized what we had been through. Making fun of us for calling it trauma. Screw that guy.
It occurred to me today, given that Dannah Gresh was hitting modesty, hard while her husband was going through a porn addiction, they were putting his sin on us girls. God help us.
My son and I were just talking about this second complaint the other day. We cannot ignore our own sin in the church and preach against the sin in the world.
Agree. That's called hypocrisy.
The ferocity of the backlash is proof of the tremendous effect your work has had❤proof that you’ve made a huge difference in the lives of men and women wounded by those negative messages promoted by purity culture🎉God bless you in your work! 😊
Ugh. “Just a book” thing. It was so much more than that because the books outlined the guidelines for “Christian living” according to many leaders in my church! They were sending my mom websites where I was allowed to purchase a bathing suit because I wore a tankini at family camp! How is that “just a book” when control and authority which stemmed from the books were largely what “ruined” my happy girlhood!
Looking forward to this one. You’ve helped me & my marriage so much, you literally saved it. I’m so disappointed by the backlash by those that don’t understand what you are doing or that think you are against men. I’ve never gotten that message from you. Saying, “don’t let your life be wrecked by a book…” is infuriating. It’s not the books, I never read any of those books, but my mom did, my church leaders did, & their teachings ruined sex for me for years and years. It made me feel dirty for having feelings about sex. It taught me that any man I ran into from age 10 on was only thinking of one thing. It changed my relationship with my dad, my uncles, my pastor, my own husband…simply because I thought those good men, who had never done anything personally to hurt me & showed love always, where thinking of me in a way they were not. It was a horrible message to tell girls sex was all men thought about and that it wasn’t for us. The people against you should just be grateful they haven’t been hurt by that message the way the woman you’ve helped have.
Thank you for pointing out how these false teachings affect men. Growing up in church. We were taught this. Even as a man, I feel like it caused psychological damage. My niece's. Who weren't very well taken care of. What sometimes have to wear their brothers clothes to church? Their shirts were too big and would sometimes fall off their shoulders. My mom told them that I was getting sexually aroused. By how they were dressing. To scare them into covering up. I'm talking 8 7 and 5-year-olds. I was also told that if I had a daughter. I should never hug because I'm only a man. And it would make me want to have sex with her. After I get married. I had a lot of problems with intimacy. Because I felt like women Because I felt like women thought all men were perverts. I left the religion years ago. I thought these kind of things were only taught in that religion. I was so disappointed to find out other churches. Teach the same thing.
BEAUTIFULLY SAID! 😭😭😭 This was my experience too. It's so upsetting 😢
To not admit that *HARM WAS DONE* is not only irresponsible....it's callous and unfeeling. This is the trope of abusers! They don't care, they don't take any time to empathize with those who've been harmed by their words, actions or teachings, and any harm THEY caused, they claim it's _your fault_ for _taking it that way._
No accountability, no empathy, no apology....nothing. They just double down.
@BareMarriage ...every single time I watch your videos here, I cry or get majorly choked up. So many people, including myself, have felt so incredibly alone in our hurt for a LONG time....and these open conversations are a healing balm to our gaping spiritual wounds.
No matter what the naysayers say, you ARE doing the work of Jesus!! You are speaking out for the hurting, the outcasts, the anxious, the downtrodden, those who don't have a voice, platform or reach like you do!😭
THANK YOU!!!! 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻💯
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: C.S. Lewis had the perfect take on modesty.
This is taken from Mere Christianity, the chapter on Sexual Morality.
“The Christian rule of chastity must not be confused with the social rule of ‘modesty’ (in one sense of that word); i.e. propriety, or decency. The social rule of propriety lays down how much of the human body should be displayed and what subjects can be referred to, and in what words, according to the customs of a given social circle. Thus, while the rule of chastity is the same for all Christians at all times, the rule of propriety changes. A girl in the Pacific islands wearing hardly any clothes and a Victorian lady completely covered in clothes might both be equally ‘modest’, proper, or decent, according to the standards of their own societies: and both, for all we could tell by their dress, might be equally chaste (or equally unchaste). Some of the language which chaste women used in Shakespeare’s time would have been used in the nineteenth century only by a woman completely abandoned.”
Lewis also points out that someone who breaks these social standards is not always being immodest:
“When people break the rule of propriety current in their own time and place, if they do so in order to excite lust in themselves or others, then they are offending against chastity. But if they break it through ignorance or carelessness they are guilty only of bad manners. When, as often happens, they break it defiantly in order to shock or embarrass others, they are not necessarily being unchaste, but they are being uncharitable: for it is uncharitable to take pleasure in making other people uncomfortable.”
Lewis is also very realistic about the differing standards in society. Having grown up in the conservative Christian culture, I’ve seen what a stumbling block the issue of modesty is for many people - and I don’t mean men who struggle with lust.
Men and women alike too often judge others based on the way they dress. Conservative women take pride in their own standard and look down on women who are “less modest.” And on the other hand, women who come from more relaxed backgrounds sometimes judge their conservative counterparts as being legalistic.
Lewis’ solution?
“I do not think that a very strict or fussy standard of propriety is any proof of chastity or any help to it, and I therefore regard the great relaxation and simplifying of the rule which has taken place in my own lifetime as a good thing. At its present stage, however, it has this inconvenience, that people of different ages and different types do not all acknowledge the same standard, and we hardly know where we are. While this confusion lasts I think that old, old-fashioned, people should be very careful not to assume that young or ’emancipated’ people are corrupt whenever they are (by the old standard) improper; and, in return, that young people should not call their elders prudes or puritans because they do not easily adopt the new standard. A real desire to believe all the good you can of others and to make others as comfortable as you can will solve most of the problems.”
Brilliant.
Beautiful! Thank you for sharing this!
@@starlingswallow You’re welcome. The modesty issue is worse than ever thanks to the pornographic culture we currently live in. Now we have women wearing skimpy out fits on purpose when going out in public. As a consequence all this rampant pornography and general sexual sin has created a wave of sex negativity that will have drastic repercussions. It’s basically going to be purity culture on steroids, and that’s NOT what we need. What we need is balance. What we need is to teach young girls (and boys) the value of chastity, without dumping loads of sexual shame on them. We need to teach them the true Biblical sex ethic and dress code and not the bastardized, heretical version of it that the purity movement taught.
Ladies, take heart. When we look at the damage "just a book" can do....YOUR book, she deserves better, has been out a YEAR, and the healing ripple affect it will have will be healing and life/world changing! I believe it!! Praise Gid! ❤
A typical narcissist’s response and gaslighting: “it’s just a book”. Just like a cruel joke that hurts someone “it was just a joke”. Like Bob, don’t pretend you didn’t treat your book like it was God’s gift to mankind.
Thanks to God this despicable messaging is on its way out and the backlash is coming for them and I’m here for it.
That's the problem.
With people that give God the credit for everything they do say and think. Because what they're really saying is everything. I think is the gospel truth and to question me is to question God. I wrote a book and I'm so Thankful that God Led me every step of the way, so don't you dare even suggest that anything in my book is wrong? If that's the case, they're holding their book on the same level with the Bible. Books like thru a man's eyes and every man's battle R total b. S I'm glad people are starting to wake up.
DARVO expert= Bob Gresh
It’s crazy to me that people say “don’t let a book wreck you” but also the Bible says There’s life and death in the tongue. Sure the messages were written but sometimes (at least in my opinion) written words can be worse because people can go back and see what is said.
Keep fighting the good fight. Y’all are doing good work!
An amazing point and SO TRUE!! ❤
Them: “You’re not talking enough about sin.”
Okay, let’s talk about the fact that Jesus said that if you look at another person lustfully, it’s on YOU to correct YOUR thoughtlife, period.
Or that when Paul was speaking about “women’s modesty”, he was addressing outward displays of wealth presented as a “sign of God’s blessing her virtue”. Like all those Christian influencers crowing that “Jesus keeps blessing and blessing” with their perfect tradwife houses and luxury wardrobes…. Utterly obtuse to the fact that their followers are struggling to get milk and new shoes for their kids. (And to be frank, I’ve found the “purity” crowd to be the worst offenders in this blatant sin against holistic modesty.)
PS want to give a shout-out to The Bible Project Podcast. They’re tackling the Sermon on the Mount this year and just covered the lust and divorce topics in a manner that very much affirms Sheila, Rebecca, and Zach’s message. :)
Purity Culture and the male entitlement ethic in marriage is idolatry in it's worst most personal form.
I wish Zachary had spoken more during this episode
I bet they were thinking- well, you need to give clear B/W rules, and if you don't, you've given no solution. Unfortunately, their perspective (of needing B/W rules... and rules devote of context for that matter) is emotionally and psychologically immature... which therefore is spiritually immature. Our faith is complex. Grace and Justice. Providence and Free Will. Speaking Truth in Love. If our faith was just a set of rules, the Bible would not need to be as long as it is.
I came here to say what you've said here much better. That epidemic of arrested development in these spaces that makes it so hard to have good, honest conversation.
As a tween or teen girl, I would've found Bob scary. Scary dude. Reminds me of my dad.
Thank you for another great podcast! Christians, look to God’s calling for our lives! Love Sheila’s content ☺️👍⭐️
I was curious to hear your take on the topic of purity culture and often found myself agreeing with much of what was said. But I would like to offer feedback from a first-time listener. I can tell that you're very passionate about this topic and supporting those who have been harmed because of purity culture. And with all of the passion, you spoke over your guest and didn't allow him to complete his thoughts without multiple interruptions. And there were several moments of long monologs instead of dialog. After a while, I was like "Please respect your guest and give him the floor to speak, especially when you're asking him a question. Let him answer." Other than that, I appreciate your perspective.
I really appreciate how you shared your feelings here. THIS is how it's done! I think it's good for all of us to get feedback in order to help the cause, how we listen to people, how we navigate ALL of this...
We are all growing and changing and being able to accept constructive criticism, in love and respect, is huge ❤
I, too, have problems with speaking over people when we are talking about things I'm SO passionate about!! Im one of those people who has a thought that flies into my head but a lot of times I forget them quickly, so I interrupt or talk over just to get it out of my head before I forget it 😅 I literally will cross my fingers to remember (as the person is finishing their thought) or I jot down a note in order to remember. It works well!
@@starlingswallow I was really hoping for the best with my comment because I know that often times written feedback can seem more harsh than intended. So I really tried to be careful with my wording and show appreciation for this podcast.
Just ordered both books. I grew up in the "I left dating behind" insanity culture with heavy purity culture, Focus on the Family and Brio influences. Those messages, combined with a codependent upbringing and dad that walked out when I was 13, completely messed up my ability to relate to or have any kind of real trust with men. Boundaries by Cloud & Townsend finally allowed me to feel capable of actually making a connection with a man, and GSR completely redeemed my view of and desire for sex. GSR has been so liberating and has allowed me to finally seek healing in areas that were just too painful for me to deal with. "Powerful and Free: Confronting the Glass Ceiling for Women in the Church" by Danny Silk is setting me free from the more generalized misogynistic messages I've gotten in church. Thank you for addressing these things.
Me too! I also found "The Making of Biblical Womenhood" by Dr. Beth Allison Barr, super helpful in revealing the horrors of that misogyny too. If you haven't read that yet, I highly recommend it. It's brilliant.
Such an excellent book! All Christians need to read and internalize it's Biblical based teachings.
I was a teen in the 90's at the beginning of purity culture. We changed youth pastors to one who very controlling. His wife would counsel us girls if we were struggling with anything. Then she would gossip about it around the church. It was so bad the pastor and deacons intervened. Later during our annual trip in girl talk time, she told us that a seminary student violated her in the worst way possible. Sadly, rather than getting any help. She used that to double down on purity culture teachings. The last event I attended she tried to make an example of me over the 1 piece swimsuit I was wearing, by shaming me because the neckline was black sheer material. Nothing else was exposed. I quit after that.
Something I realize now is that how many that are the harshest promoters of these toxic teachings are trying to hide shame. I imagine the number is quite high. Rather than getting them real help from licensed professionals religious institutions use them to peddle a message for money.
I whole heartedly agree with Your response on that second point, Zachary.
Sounds like Bob was talking to you lol maybe he knows he was wrong. 😉
I remember those articles. and YES! His views are SO CREEPY. And at 42, the harm has been deep and I'm still ripping out the effects.
I think Paul could have been prophetically writing of things like Purity Culture in 1 Timothy 4 and after 2000 years it's hard to separate healthy sexuality from the Gnostic traditions that were creeping into the Church even during the 1st century. So in 29:26 it's funny how you talk about how cheapening the Gospel by adding to it, yet still using concepts like Lust (very Catholic), or condemning masturbation, which is a huge HUGE problem with Every Young Man's Battle. It's correct that they've created their own god out of sex(uality), but that in itself is the problem: do we reject what God called Good because someone decided to turn it into an Idol?
Good job Zachary in bringing in the 10th Commandment that Jesus alludes to in Matthew 5, because people should know that Lust = Covetousness! Jason Staples has a great article on this. I think there are huge problems with porn but I have a hard time with the idea that being physically aroused by sexual imagery is coveting someone else's wife in your heart. I also have a huge problem with masturbation being equated with pornography and it all being condemned out of hand without looking at compulsive behavior or falling into addictions. An equal number of people fall away from Christianity because of attitudes like this, which is equally unhealthy. Colossians 2:20-23.
If all outlets are denied out of hand as unacceptable, then why not seek out (and force women into) sexual experiences that are just that much more intense? But if the commandments & doctrines of men set up such a rigid code of Sin that can't be followed by many, then it's not surprising at all that so many would quit trying and swing like a pendulum to the other extreme.
Great topics. These conversations are needed. It's awkward in the way that your guest wasn't doing most of the talking, though.
✅ good video
I would love to see you talk to Happy Wife School lady - because she is making 'duty relations' sound normal.
The comments on that channel... YIKES
The Matthew West podcast you all played a clip of.. just have to say, if someone says about probably most any harm that happens to someone "I get this and that, I truly do, BUT" yeah, no... If you can minimize it like that then you actually don't get it. You don't care about the harm and trauma of the other person and you are not loving your neighbor. I just have to say it! When you truly enter into someone's pain you really can't do the, "yeah yeah yeah, I get it, but minimize minimize minimize"-- how can you prove that you don't in fact get it. By doing that.
23:00 minutes in bro it that is called LUST - it is a sin.
Dannah Gresh also created those teachings while Bob was consuming porn. Anyone who speaks about porn being harmful while also excusing men for cheating on their wives via it because she denied him is a liar. Conversation over.
I found it odd that Matthew West is saying it’s not fair to say his song is lumped in with abusers and YET his song is lumping all women in to being a STUMBLING BLOCK for men. He dishes it but can’t take it