When Submission "Cults" Groom for Abuse--One Woman's Story
Вставка
- Опубліковано 10 кві 2024
- We've got such a compelling interview with Lauren Rose from Called to Peace Ministries. She's telling her story--and it's a mesmerizing one--of what happened as her family got more and more into the Bill Gothard movement (and she was eventually one of the ones he allegedly abused, and was part of the lawsuit).
But when you grow up feeling like your main role is to submit, are you even able to recognize abuse?
(Also: at the beginning I quoted a Bible passage and said Matthew 18. I meant Matthew 15. Sorry!)
OUR SPONSOR:
The Kingdom Girls NIV Bible. Meet the women in God's story! Designed for girls, but honestly--it's awesome for every woman! And it makes a great Easter gift. The Bible includes beautiful photos and write-ups on every woman who is mentioned in Scripture. Finally, a Bible that highlights God's story for women.
www.zondervan.com/p/kingdom-g...
TO SUPPORT US:
Join our Patreon for as little as $5 a month to support our work
/ baremarriage
For tax deductible donations in the U.S., support Good Fruit Faith Initiative through the Bosko Foundation
secure.qgiv.com/for/goodfruits
And check out our Merch, or any of our courses!
sheilawraygregoire.com/shop/
ABOUT LAUREN AND CALLED TO PEACE:
Find Called to Peace Ministries
www.calledtopeace.org/
Find Called to Peace on Facebook, including my interview on how Sexual Coercion is Domestic Abuse
/ calledtopeace
/ 965738881197417
THINGS MENTIONED IN THE PODCAST
Our podcast with another Gothard Survivor, Emily Elizabeth
baremarriage.com/2022/04/out-...
Our interview with Alyssa Wakefield, who grew up in a Gothard home and was groomed for abuse (Part 1, and Part 2).
Part 1: baremarriage.com/2022/06/groo...
Part 2: baremarriage.com/2022/06/esca...
The podcast with Jay Stringer when we analyzed Josh Howerton's wedding night advice
baremarriage.com/2024/03/podc...
My Twitter thread about Josh Howerton's "apology"
/ 1777730633176846616
The original thread that went viral, as well as a viral follow-up dealing with Josh's comments
/ 1773363997770645696
/ 1773791757768999025
Thank you, Sheila, for your strong voice against messages like that of Josh that objectify and devalue woman in this way especially. I sat for decades under these types messages and am having to work daily to undo the extensive damage that they have done to me. I so appreciate your work and voice and standing up for us. God bless you mightily.
8:48 count me in as one who is offended for all the women and young girls and boys who felt they were supposed to LAUGH when their pastor said a new bride had to stand in place for her groom and obey his sexual orders like a prostitute.
Loved this podcast! Thank you Sheila. I can’t wait for pastors to stop preaching stuff like this. My husband and I sat through a service when the pastor stated that “Men NEED sex” and went on to say if a woman isn’t in the mood “by the power of the Holy Spirit, you GET in the mood.” (Um, spiritual abuse much??) When we brought our issue up with him and his sermon, he debated my husband, never admitted he was wrong and told us he didn’t agree with our thoughts on sex in marriage. He said he never got more positive responses on a sermon than he did on that one and that we were the only negative one so the problem is with US. Needless to say, we never went back to that church. And yes, of course he got positive feedback on that sermon because now men have more ammunition against their wife. They can use the “Pastor said this and that” and get more sex because of that toxic message. Sorry about the rant. Keep up the good work Sheila.
The emphasis is always on how woman must be in the moood. How God/holy spirit should get her into mood?! Why not about how to respect women and how men can get a female into mood...
They don't "get more sex". They just become r-----s instead.
The shame of the reaction to the Southern Baptist Howerton clip is that the outrage is not primarily inside the Southern Baptist. Even UNBELIEVERS can see this is wrong!!
It's probably one of those situations where unbelievers can see more clearly as they're outside and haven't been subject to the same brainwashing and destructive teachings. And yes, the shame on us in those situations. Thank God for Sheila.
What a well spoken, spirit filled woman Lauren is!
Narcissist always say "I was only joking"
And he kept on mentioning going “that was a joke” in the sermon whenever he would make a joke and he had that attitude.
“Jesus offended people”?! My dear brother in Christ … Jesus offended the Scribes, Pharisees, and teachers of the Law. You know who He wasn’t offending?… 🤨
Though brother in Christ he IS NOT.
Jesus offended people when he needed to not because he was being a jerk.
Who, angry people? Just kiddin 😅
Yay!! Your discussion about Josh was so clear and to the point! Excellent
It is finished with these bullies. We must stand up against idiots. Big support from Croatia Europe!
I'm reminded of the passage where Jesus refers to His sheep knowing His voice and fleeing the voices that aren't His. It's shameful that there are groups that convince Christians that they would be sinning to follow their God given intuition/promping from the Holy Spirit by deceiving them into thinking the group is speaking what is supposedly the will of God.
I love you, Sheila, and all your work. Just a suggestion, you might want to put a trigger warning for those who have been sexually abused. Thank you for providing all of this great content! ❤
The title includes 'grooming for abuse'.
The title includes 'groom for abuse'
I first heard about Howerton from Dean Lintenni. The fight will be long. I did not realize that you had taken this on. Good for you.
I had never heard of this Gother man, but I lived this same marriage. This is not the fringes. It is legalistic, misogynistic, Christian abuse.
Just watched the first few minutes of his sermon and that apology was a JOKE. He was NOT sorry.
I appreciate you so much, Sheila! I'm in the process of reading "Powerful & Free" by Danny Silk and it's tearing down oppressive beliefs that I didn't realize I even had. God really does love women.
I remember my former "pastor" is saying and laughing like a jerk telling people to marry now because there is no marriage and sex in heaven. This is all about: sex/lust, power/control and $$$ almighty. This is their god
Welp, he's gonna hate it up there, cuz there's no gender in heaven.
6:50 totally this. As often, the difference is about where the power is in the situation, and when we deny people that analysis (as is often the case in US culture in particular) we cover up, perpetuate, and enable abuse.
See also the quote (widely attributed to Terry Pratchett) about how humour is supposed to punch up - punching down isn't humour it's bullying.
And yes yes, we are supposed to stand alongside the oppressed (and be offended on their behalf). To criticise people for doing that is also to grind the boot on the heads of the oppressed.
Tom, once again I applaud your posts which have given us all so much comfort. Please keep posting. Both men and women deserve love, protection, comfort and joy and being joined by men of good will like yourself is SO dearly appreciated! ❤ Your words have power and prove it's not just two lone Canadian women howling in the wilderness while these beliefs keep sexual abuse enshrined in Christian beliefs about marriage ❤❤🩹
Amen! ❤
Excellent thanks very much 😅
The most freeing thing I did as a woman was learning the bible is mythology and leaving the faith entirely. My hope is that all women would be freed from religion, but I do appreciate podcasts like this that attempt to make life better for women in christianity. It’s better than nothing.
I would have gotten up and walked out of the service! The next week I would have walked out of that "mock apology". Jesus didn't mock people. I would have gone to him with an elder to discuss the offensive Comment, proceeded with the elder board if he didn't listen, then to the body idf he still refused to listen. If I f 9:58 ould that the body approves this practice I would have sought to find a healthy church!
I hope Josh and his ilk leave the ministry to people that do actually understand and practice Jesus's words and behavior. Not the ancient cult of pater familias and its abusive views of humanity.
Well said!
I need to go look up 'pater familias.' Never heard of that.
. . . Go figure. It says it's from 'ancient Roman law.'
@@FireflowerDancer it's essentially the eldest male rules all and has the final word in a family group/society. Usually that's the dad or grandpa. Women were property in Roman and Greek culture. As several Greek philosophical schools were based on the idea that women were deformed/unfinished men and thus a lower order of humanity. That same crap permeated the church because Constantine co-oped Christianity and pasted its face onto parts of Roman culture to form the state religion of Catholicism. And here we are today with the usual stupid idea that God cares only about men's control.
As an actual Ace person, that's not how it works. Gotherd unsurprisingly is wrong.
I think you have done a great thing. With the great sex rescue because you point out the BS of other popular books like through a man's eyes and every man's battle. But I don't know why you say. Women are more affected by these teachings. Than men are. I'm a man and I don't go to church for this same reason. Because I don't like people being taught that all men are perverts. And God made women peer and innocent. I would much rather be on the woman's side of that than the man's. Men are taught that we're sexual and visual and our wives aren't. Men want to be desired and need emotional connection, just as much as women do. And what really bothers me. When I was a kid I was sexually abused by my mom. And I was told that I imagined it. Because women aren't sexual. Or visually attracted to men. And boys, even in toddlerhood, imagine perverted things about their mom's. I believed that I had imagined it for 20 years. Until other people started talking about it too. Boys aren't taken seriously when I get sexually abused by a woman. Because of these false teachings. So from my point of view. Men suffer from this far more than women do. That's why men are leaving the church more than women. Don't take it personal. I like what you do. I'm just asking you to broaden your perspective a little bit.
As the mother of a boy I totally get what you're saying and my heart hurts for you and all of the boys who were hurt this way. The difference is that the whole "purity" teaching thing and the "duty" and "obligation" sex in marriage actually hurt women physically, ruining what should be a blissful part of marriage for both. The physical damage to the woman's body is real and requires actual physical therapy by a Pelvic Floor Physical Therapist and the UTI's and chronic cystitis women get from being abused this way can actually kill them. My own mother died from a UTI after years of pain so that is the distinction but I do hear your pain and agree with you 100%!
Thank you. I understand a little more of where she's coming from now. I can understand how women get upset when they hear things like. Wife should give her husbands sex even when they don't feel like it or if a girl gets sexually abused, it's Her fault.for not dressing modest. These are terrible toxic teachings. That should have never made it into the church. But teaching that men are so visual and so sexual that they can't help what they do. Doesn't benefit men either. For one, it makes it too easy to falsely accuse men. Of sexual misconduct. If everyone has already been taught. That he gets Sexually aroused every time he sees a woman and he can't control his self. Which I know is not true but women hear this and it gives them a Bad impression of men from a Young age. And also when boys get sexually abused even in childhood. No one Cares because boys like sex so much. They must have liked anyways. These teachings are equally is sick. But thank you for your response. I have a son and a daughter, so I will try to keep a broader perspective from now on.
@@Daniel-jr2tc You've pointed out aspects of the damage to boys I hadn't even thought of! How awful that people would assume a boy wouldn't be hurt by sexual abuse and also it's terrible to make little girls afraid of little boys. When fear replaces love everyone is hurt. It is good that healing is finally happening!
@@luckystoller6171 It's.
Good to be able to have a productive conversation. Where everyone learns something.
re: Josh Howerton. Is he taking notes from Mark Driscoll? Pornifying women and then defending being offensive. We've seen this before and it doesn't go well. Yuck.