Wood burning stoves, and Particulates in the home?
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- Опубліковано 25 лют 2024
- This video is obviously in response to lots of things in the media at the moment. Of course I will seek to defend my industry, I love it and I know it has good to do in the world. When or if it doesn't I'll say, but for now there seems to be a lot of stuff out there that doesn't necessarily have any basis.
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The "Gosforth Handyman" installed a stove last year I think it was [house renovation] he tried a PM 2.5 meter inside and out, the only time he got bad readings was when he lit a joss stck
That makes sense 😳 👍
Hi I have a log burner and was concerned it about 2.5 particles. I purchased a meter like yours and began testing in the home. I light my stove by the top down method, doing it this way means you do not have to open the door for at a minimum 30 minutes. It depends on how thick your logs are. I use a gas lighter not a match and get zero extra 2.5 particles in the room. If you wait until the logs burn down to just glowing embers (no flames) you will find the particle count does not go up.I agree with you about the kitchen and cooking. Frying and grilling the meter goes off the scale. A good cooker hood extractor does help plus cracking open a window but you still get a high particle count
The particle count from cooking is an overestimation because the cheap light scattering monitor you use counts water droplets as a particle. This means much of the particle count in the kitchen is just steam. Wood burning fires produce soot. These particles are extremely dangerous and even cross into the brain through the olfactory nerves.
Very useful information, thank you 😊 PS: Love the socks 😃
Glad you like them!
I’m a nightmare 😬
@@TheTortoise 😅
Love the socks. I split my pairs just to wind up my wife!
I have done similar tests with a PM2.5 monitor, perhaps not as accurate as yours but entirely repeatable. I found the same effect demonstrated here though with a Clearview 400 I was able to refuel the stove and not see the values change at all sometimes as the flue pulled all particulates away as long as the door was open.
It also showed me the value of having a wood burning cooker (where the oven vents into the flue) as kitchen levels of PM2.5 were much faster to recover and often lower compared with just using the electric oven.
What was really scary was seeing how high PM2.5 levels got with candles burning over an evening. Thank goodness the stove was lit to clear the air!
I've since gone right off the idea of installing an outside air kit on the stove...
The candles were a shock to me. I’ve stopped using the scented ones entirely as a result.
All this info, explainations etc seem to shine a bright light on these forms of home heating , however if you had a neighbour such as I do then you might think differently, we can’t hang out washing , we can’t open windows without the fumes affecting us . We open our door on the opposite side of our neighbour and the smell of the fumes hit us. Needless considering the neighbour already has conventional ways of home heating. His log burner is just for effect, and if I had to guess then some of the wood used doesn’t meet the safety standards.
Very interesting.
I have a big Jotul and been thinking bout this and didn't know,
but you make it clear.
Clearing tha house with the stove, nice.
Doesn’t it depend on the nature of particulates? Anything from skin cells to cooking by-products to smoke can form a particulate, surely? They aren’t all going to have the same effect. The effects of cleaning are going to disturb the particulates that have settled on surfaces… especially those that are ‘trapped’ in soft furnishings…so it stands to reason the readings are going to be higher. I’m wondering if the meters are going to be rather useless unless they can separate harmful ones from more benign ones.
It’s unlikely in these examples that any of them were benign, as cooking steak for example will cause some burning to the outer meat as will bread becoming toast, a stove involves burning and then those particles settle in the room and then get kicked up again.
The point is that we have all existed with these particles forever.
@@TheTortoise You used a light scattering monitor so a large part of the high reading when you were cooking was caused by water droplets. Try the same experiment in the shower. You'll have an higher reading than in the kitchen. These are just water droplets that confuse your monitor. Wood burning fires create soot which is extremely harmful for your health even at very low levels. Recent studies even find there is no safe level. The water droplets created in the kitchen are giving you a high reading but they aren't dangerous. The soot particulates created by the wood burning fire are causing harm at any detectable level.
Interesting. My log burner is upstairs on the first floor. I 've got an air intake pipe in the back of my appliance routed to the room below downstairs so it draws air from that room at floor level rather than cold air from the outside. Judging by this i'd say it would be a better idea to draw the air from the kitchen ceiling which is also downstairs. I think there's a lot to consider in house design regarding fresh air flow particularly with other factors such as convection and inside/outside temps.
Very interesting I would presume central heating would make particulates sky high with the radiators just swirling the dusts around and not removing this. I would say I'll be sticking with the stove if that removes the nasties or have we just become obsessed with figures nowadays. Would certainly like to see this tested with central heating and open fire's I think it would be eye opening. 🔥
Best sock collection on UA-cam!
I can breath softwood dust all day no problem, Hardwood dust can make my nose and lungs hurt. Which type of particulates is important. Wood ash and smoke are natural and our bodies can deal with a normal amount.
However when I was working near a gas boiler recently which was pushing out a horrible smoke at head level, it made me feel very sick for the rest of the day. I then returned the following week and the same thing happened.
We need to return to the old ways, which turns out to be better for us and the environment.
Why is it the humble log fire is being labelled as a likker! Burn dry burn clean! Sticking with my log burners because I control all matters relating to it, is this the real issue who controls what?
I think smoking into the room when reloading is caused by the stove efficiency rating. The baffle plates seem to come to the front of the stove leaving less room for smoke extraction.Older stoves ive had or used never had this problem but maybe were less efficient. Ide probably take the drop in efficiency over the smoking issue.
Thing is you only use a log burner in winter, but all the normal things we do all year are so so much harmful. It's just a scare system the government use to try to ban log burners... perhaps we should just stop moving.😅
Agree. They want us dependent on them and not thriving independently, using the regenerative resources of nature. It’s all about control.
That's a bit like saying "smoking is fine because other things are also bad", isn't it?
It's a fire we been using this thing since two sticks were rubbed together stone age shit keep warm its natural to us all
We're would be without it fire that is come on get a grip wasn't arsed in industrial revolution was we all digging coal out the earth burning the shit out of everything turning the city black causing all kinds of problems in health let's face it we all just trying to survive and that means pollution pollution pollution. POLLUTION we've dug our own graves I'm more worried about the wildlife than the human life never seen a whale light a fire keep warm
Love the videos I would be very interested in one about advantages/disadvantages of an external air feed. I can’t find anyone to give informed information on this stove feature.
Yes, when you consider particulates, having a deep text feed definitely poses a disadvantage.
I did the same thing and measured the pm 2.5 of cooking and its so much worse. Though mostly I stew food now and that has no pm 2.5. Frying and using the grill or oven produces the worst pm 2.5.
Using an air filter - coway, dyson, pillips etc clears the pm 2.5 in 5 - 15 minutes. So worth investing in them.
That is because you used a light scattering monitor. It measures water droplets as particulates. Take it into the bathroom and have a shower. The level will be even higher than the kitchen. Those are water droplets and they aren't harmful. Wood burning stoves create harmful soot.
Great video. Your conclusions make perfect sense. One could also draw the conclusion that our government do not want us to be healthy.
I think it's more the self sufficient that they don't like or want as there is no money for them.
Yea the lack of tax dollars is a pretty possible motivator 😬
Hey Gabriel, awesome video! you are spot on! I am curious of your opinion of your meter you purchased. we are in the stove and fireplace business in the United States and deal with people's misconception of PM 2.5 on a daily basis. My company and my customers love your videos. keep doing what you're doing.
Thanks a lot for the support! Glad they’re useful!
Hi Gabriel! I have a question I hope you can answer! We bought a house with a Heta fireplace insert back in September. I as a child we had a stove but I never got to use it myself. Anyways we have really enjoyed the heart it produces over winter, but now we are slowly getting towards summer. Our chimney sweep told us not to let the stove go inactive for a long period of time, since it's bad for the chimney. But when summer comes I think lighting the stove would be too much. I'm not sure if it's safe to not light it over summer, basicly having it hibernate. Or if I should light it once in a while just not too much? What's you take on this? What do I do with the stove during the summer months! Love the videos, they've been so helpful and thank you for all you do~
Using a stove occasionally in the summer is like using a sports car occasionally during the winter. Doing both is important because unused things corrode, seals go bad and damp sets in. Generally what is done is on the odd chilly or very wet days, the stove will get lit just to keep things dry etc. This has a hugely positive affect in buildings and chimneys as well as for the stove, so often stoves get lit a few times over summer anyway, just to keep things dry.
If you don’t light it at all, then in some (particularly dry) houses, you’ll get away with it. In others you’ll find rust, glass breaks (due to moisture expanding the ropes and clamping the glass too tight), smell of old tar/soot from air and moisture bringing things down the chimney, and worst of all, damp appearing on the walls. Having said this, if you would like to maximise disuse then the best thing to do is leave the stove door open to allow natural air flow.
@TheTortoise amazing response! Thank you so much~ I'll make sure to light it once in a while over the summer. Always trying to be very careful as a new stove owner and I don't want to harm my house or the stove~
Thanks a million for your super usefull reply and videos~
No problem at all, it’s pointless without purpose!
Very useful thanks. The question I guess is, are some particulates more dangerous than others. I'm guessing so.
A few years ago we were all worried about carbon and global warming. Now it’s all particulates, and again I don’t doubt there’s a lot more learning left to do.
Yes the type of particulates is extremely important, but the light scattering monitors are just reading water droplets as particulates in this example from the kitchen. The negative health effects depend on the type of particulate. Some particulates like light salt spray near the ocean are even healthy for us and provide Iodine. Unfortunately, the particulates created by wood burning stoves are very unhealthy. Car exhaust and brake particulates could potentially be even worse as they contain metal fragments, which a a famous study by the University of Manchester believes enter the brain through the olfactory nerves.
I'm about to get a stove and was a little concerned with this pm2.5 business. I notice that a lot of stoves now have a new rating by clearskies? They are supposed to go above and beyond the ecodesign legislation, so what are your thoughts on that? Is it worth getting a new stove that is only clearskies approved?
How much price new
You also test a lot of brand new stoves with new coatings on them which will likely give off more PM2.5 than one that has been "seasoned" for many years.
Yes. Though things are improving with modern “non smoker” paints.
Take you meter for a trip around London Underground station, it will be off the scale, bit TFL and their king will never do anything about that as it would cost a lot and achieve nothing in the way of revenue for them. Unlike ULEZ????????😊
Very interesting indeed! Thank you for sharing your results.
I was aware that cooking raised PM2.5 levels in the house, such as grilling or burning toast, but not quite to that extent!
Glad to see that indoors, wood burners put out very little.... I wonder how they compare to an open fire? ... 🤔
I’ll have to try the open fire at some point.
Wood burning stoves release extremely harmful soot. Cooking is mainly creating water droplets that confuse the light scattering monitor.
Absolutely fascinating guys, who would have funk it!! 😂
If it’s a choice between cooking and my log burner it looks like I’ll be living off protein shakes! 😂
Great episode guys.
Kind regards
Tony
I grew up in a large Canadian city. The term "wood stove" meant nothing to me. 40+ years later, I live in the country. We use a wood stove in our home and at our cottage. Both units are recent designs, and professionally installed. We maintain them. Any damage "PM2.5" will do to "you" will be soothed by gathering around your stove, and enjoying its warmth with your family, I assure you. We get one life, live in fear, or enjoy the risks associated it. Put a particulate meter up to a brand new electric unit if you want to be really scared.
What reason would the ministry of health and social care have for banning them if it is not for health and well-being.
Without a doubt using a local carbon neutral fuel to heat single spaces rather than a whole home (particularly with a modern clean burning stove) is as clean as you can get.
It seems very disingenuous to ship in gas and oil from overseas and French electric to power your country very uncleanly and expensively just so your country can look good on a stat sheet. Wood has the lowest carbon factor of every source of home heating fuel by a huge proportion so the reality is quite different to current perception (but to be fair that’s true with nearly all things out there at the moment).
Perhaps tax dollars and control motivate some legislative ideas, but who knows.
Saw a video a while ago showing toast made readings go sky high
If u had to choose an could only have one. Would u have a clock blithfield or heta ambition 5
Well if I was burning wood then the Ambition has to win. It's also beautifully finished and refined. The clock however is also very clean and smart, has fuel fuel flexibility and a more traditional style. Truth is price and look are important factors here, because you're picking between the best.
Think I’m going for the clock… it’s built like a land rover defender 💪🏼
Sounds good, you’ll love it.
My Mila air filter shows particulate levels. I get far higher particulate levels cooking bacon or pancakes than opening the stove to refuel.
I've had much the same results while burning wood and cooking, cooking is by far the worst for poor air quality in my home.
That's because you were using a light scattering monitor. It reads water droplets as particulates. A lot of the reading created by cooking is just water droplets which are not harmful to your health. Measure in the shower to the get the highest reading. Burning wood creates soot which is highly harmful.
Why is the SIA not being more vocal about this. Your findings are spot on. I don’t understand what all the fuss is about. A modern efficient stove runs on a carbon neutral and renewable fuel source. It is on three possibly four months of the year. In my opinion the government should be championing them rather than continuing to burn fossil fuels etc. great video - look forward to seeing some more!
Wood burning stoves release soot as particulates. These are extremely dangerous. Most of the particulates he measuring in cooking will be a confusion in the light scattering monitor, he was actually mostly measuring water droplets which are harmless, unlike wood burning fire emissions which are harmful.
I was disappoointed you did not measure PM when taking ashes out. That to me is the worst. I bet you have another pair of socks just like that somewhere.
Socks ... but possibly laterally inverted ?
I did do it and then forgot to piece it all together. The ash removal did essentially raise it a touch but not a lot (certainly no where near cooking levels). Of course this is heavily dependent on how your stove is designed. This one you can only empty when the stove is out, so it kicks up very little disturbance, but I’ve no doubt if you did it when the stove was lit, the draw may kick up more.
@@TheTortoise I am new to owning a wood stove but I see a ton of ashes come out when I empty ashes. I do it while lite.
Definitely possible to experiment in order to minimise this affect. Things like opening the door more slowly, taking fewer and slower movements can help, but the main thing is avoiding removing ashes whilst the stove is lit.
@@TheTortoise Not sure I know how to do that. The stove was installed in late November of last year. I built the first fire then , it has not gone out yet.
Thanks for the insight. Love the odd socks 😊
You are so welcome! 😆
I think the issue surrounding the pm2.5 will probably disappear once a yearly tax is introduced on our stoves.
That’s providing that the authorities are aware that a stove has been installed.
@@Peter-oz8ec all registered installers register you to the governing body along with installation certificate, data plate and a follow up letter from the governing body.
@@garethchaplin3780 But what if the appliance is self installed Gareth ? I’m sure that’s the case with the situation that I’m mentioning .
@@JackieKay11 thanks for reading
I’m off to do some research myself. I know that the World Health Organisation released a report on air quality a few years ago. What I don’t know is whether “ all particulates are created equal”. Is the type of particulate generated by a stove intrinsically more dangerous (gases for instance coming alongside harmful particulate matter), than the particulates generated by cooking. For instance, if you have artex ceilings in the UK, applied pre-1996, then it may well contain some asbestos (it was made illegal in the UK in 1996). If you have it sanded down prior to plastering over it, then (if asbestos was used as an additive to the artex mix), you will be releasing asbestos into the air. You’re supposed to get multiple random samples taken for analysis before you disturb the artex. Back to the issue: I wonder if a particulate generated from toasting bread are more harmful than those generated by improperly disturbing asbestos fibres in artex? It’s easy to say “of course not”, because of our knowledge around mesothelioma. But burning food creates carcinogenic material on the surface of food. If I find anything to clarify this issue, I will post another comment.
PM2.5 from normal dust is less dangerous than particulates from the many forms of burning (stoves, cooking meat or toasting etc). However none of these come even close to the dangers from asbestos. The number of particulates we’re subject to now is vastly less than was normal in the past (air quality has essentially only reduced since records began). Open fires, industrial burning, less efficient machinery, less health and safety, no mask use etc etc etc all subjected normal people to vastly more of this “dangerous” PM2.5. So we know it is dangerous, but given how life has gone on even through huge changes (like Industrial Revolution), it appears only “so” dangerous. Asbestos on the other hand seems to be of a totally different ilk, the speed, effectiveness and reliability of its deadly properties have been very well documented and comparing that to particulates from toast seems at the very least, extreme.
I love a log burner and don't give a shitt what bad air I breathe you only live once so do what makes you happy and stop listening to negative people they have mental problems. 😊
The older you get the wiser you become, (some would say cynical but the two are actually very closely linked) the more you realise that there is ALWAYS an agenda. That's the easy part, working out the objective can sometimes be the tricky part, by which time they have usually achieved their goal.
If in doubt, it's nearly always worth following the money for your answer. In this instance it is probably safe to assume that Wood burners and the like are one of the many targets. The whole "green" movement is predominately about money.
So what is it about the likes of Wood burning stoves that the powerful few object to, when they are so obviously one of the cleanest, carbon friendly, efficient and cost effective appliances in existence (when utilised correctly)?
The quickest route to the answer is to simply imagine everyone waking up tomorrow morning owning and using a Wood burner in their homes and offices. Who would suffer financial loss.
Most people want the world to be free from pollution and breathe healthy air but this whole particulate obsession is just another agenda and as you quite rightly pointed out, cooking is right near the top of the scale. That thing we have done for thousands of years to help us survive, is so bad that it's a wonder we have a human race at all!
The best thing you can do with those particulate meters is not to buy one in the first place, much better for the planet ;-)
Should we ban cooking in homes?
Don't be giving them ideas
Well they are demonising farming at present………….
It's Really is Relentless isn't it!
Perhaps chefs and those working in restaurant kitchens should be wearing dust masks or some such thing and getting danger money
Cooking is releasing water droplets that causes a high reading on the light scattering air quality monitor, but doesn't have the same negative effect on your health.
You own a burner company butbit takes you so long to light your stove? It should be roaring in 5 minutes.
I don’t own a stove company. I did start one, but my family run that now.
If you are getting readings of 50 to 60 pm2.5 when lighting or re loading your stove you are doing something badly wrong! Why strike your match outside the fire rather than in to it? I'm guessing this was just for show. my pm2.5 is always under the safe level of 12 while the stove is on, unless I make an error and accidently let smoke in to the room, where it might go up to 20-30, in which case i'll open a window briefly. I also run an air filter in the same room which has a sensor and kicks on high if the particulates increase (goes nuts when we hoover!). I suggest never opening the door unless the fire is really hot, so the draw is excellent and reload while hot so you have no risk of smoke coming back in to the room.
Your test just goes to prove Gabe how much utter bulls@#t there is concerning woodburners!
Defra is a complete waste of public money in my opinion. Government fear mongering regarding non-issues! Cooking is a hundred times worse!
Yea it is frustrating!
I’m doing some tests with a new product soon which promises to essentially completely solve any particulate issues, which sounds quite exciting! But I can say more once I’ve seen and used it!