Disagreeing With Peak Torque On Titanium Bikes.
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- Опубліковано 17 жов 2024
- I just watched PTs Video on his (New-ish) Titanium MTB and he said “it’s currently my favourite bike…” so he doesn’t hate Titanium bikes as some people seem to think?
I want no war with PT, he has been consistently informative and honest in the vast majority of his videos.
I only made this video because people keep sending it to me thinking it’s a refutation of what I say about Ti bikes… and it’s not.
His video is confusing for many people and sadly, it’s probably done tremendous damage to the reputation of Ti bikes. 🫣
Thank you for watching my video.
If you have any questions just ask in the comments and I will get back to you.
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Safe riding,
Reg. - Авто та транспорт
My titanium framed hardtail is probably my favourite bike. Its flexy as hell, is durable, likely will not corrode. But it does not have any damping! Like all metallic structures, the ride stiffness is determined by E*I (Young’s Modulus x Second moment of area). Only CF/epoxy composites have a modicum of damping.
Flexural stiffness is not what people refer to when they talk about 'dampening'. As carbon composites usually have a higher modulus of elasticity & similar frame geometry. As such they should have higher stiffness.
People are usually more concerned about noise vibration and harshness (NVH) and use that as a proxy for dampness.
Shock Absorption (compliance) vs. Damping is really poorly understood by the general public (count me in that group). I think it could justify a video on your channel
Hello Sir, It looks like a lovely bike, I’m glad you like it and it sounds like you got a good deal on the frame. (I only just found your review, for some odd reason it didn’t shop up in suggested videos?)
What’s funny to me is I have ridden super stiff Ti bikes (described in reviews as being as stiff as carbon) and super flexible Ti bikes and they all seem to kill road buzz?
Vibration dampening is definitely something I need to read more about. I tried to find you figures of 0.2% for metal but I couldn’t yet. You now say that metal has no dampening at all? 🫣Like I say, it’s a gap in my knowledge as to why I don’t understand this. I also have questions about the relationship between vibration and flex. What I experience on bikes does not match what I’m being told. I will see what I can find.
Thank you kindly for the comment. I look forward to your next informative videos. All the best and safe riding! 🙂🙏🏻
@@stpOwner in the UK engineering syllabus there’s no such thing as dampening. Its damping if we are being correct 😜
@@PeakTorque I studied engineering not English/literacy for a reason 😅
I really want a ti bike but I would have to get it painted the same colour as the steel bike that I told my wife was a bike for life.
Ha ha That’s definitely possible. 😁👍🏻
@@reginaldscot165 well they do make a Ti version and she’s not the most observant…
Truth 😂
rustoleum is like eight bucks a can and comes in a wide variety of colors. you got this. 😅
or take a can of silver spray paint to your current steel bike, claim it's titanium and watch for the reaction.
What makes me very sad is that if you read the Litespeed warranty they specifically say the warranty doesn't cover fatigue failure, which is what's killed every single frame I've ever broken. They also say that unless the frame is built up by a Litespeed approved mechanic, the warranty is void anyway. Not exactly giving customers the impression they have a whole lot of confidence in their products... 😞
Good reason not to buy a Litespeed. Plenty of other ti builders to choose from.
Titanium has a fatigue limit, which means if it is not stressed beyond this limit, or damaged, it will never fatigue. This means when riding a titanium frame it will not fatigue, whilst an aluminium frame (under similar stress) will eventually fatigue given enough time (which may well be longer than one's remaining life). I think what litespeed might have tried to do is cover cases where the material is (ab)used in ways it shouldn't be. It's quite normal not to cover abuse in a warranty. You can read it here as well: ua-cam.com/video/hKlZ-Hn9yC4/v-deo.html
Yes Litespeed aren’t brilliant when it comes to their warrantees, which doesn’t reflect the quality of the bikes. There are plenty of Litespeed bikes that are over 20 years old still being ridden. I believe the average is about 15 years, however if you want to be really disappointed go read the warranty for Specialized. 😂 to be honest most warrantees are like insurance, everything is great until you want somebody to pay up and then they will find any excuse not to. 🤷🏻♂️
@@Xantippee MIGHT and THINK are not facts, that is your OPINION. The person said it fatigued, so that's what it is,not what YOU say. How many frames that YOU personally built have been used in the Tours, as in Giro/France/ Italy??? Unless YOU are in the game directly, then it's just talk...
@michaels8607 tours as in giro/france/italy? I didn’t realize there were two giros...
Everyone is ignoring the elephants in the room. The deflection of a frame being steel, CF, Al, Ti Is around an order of magnitude lower than that of the tyres. Hense tyre size & pressure if far more important than frame type!
If you want to talk the advantages of metalic frames, the big one would be the modulus of toughness (due to higher plastic deformation) which is a huge advantage in failure situations such as crashes or having a bad landing on a MTB.
100% agree with your second statement but I personally think that the frame is way more important than the tyres. But it’s an opinion based on a specific set of circumstances and I need to explain it further in another video. 😁
All the best! ❤️
@@reginaldscot165 looking forward to your video
@stpOwner depends if you are talking about deflections due to the surface you are riding on or deflection, say ,around the BB under pedaling loads.
@@reginaldscot165 After learning about tires from people who raced motorcycles back in the day, everything from the rims to the shape of the inflated tires made a discernable difference in how a given motorcycle rode, cornered, accelerated and even felt upon braking. It all mattered. Now if you were to run the exact same profile solid tires on two as-near-to-identical frames as you could muster, you'd still have the opinion of the rider to go by. Too many variables. On a Tuesday. Wednesday might be different though, so maybe try the experiment again.
I ride an Allez Sprint. Stiff alu frame with aero seatpost. That bike should be horrible to ride but it's not. With 28mm in the front and 30mm in the rear it's comfy.
Hi and thanks for an excellent video. In your experience what is titanium like to chase and face bottom brackets, head races. Its a hard material so are the standard park tools up to it or do titanium unpainted frames come with a higher level of finishing. I am thinking or getting a titanium bike and would be grateful for your opinion.
Thank you kindly! I have only built up quality Ti frames and have never needed to face or chase any of the headsets or BB shells. It’s not like working on a Carbon frame that need cleaning up before you and build them. 😉
Out of the last 16 Litespeed frames I’ve built up only one of them had some metal burrs inside one of the tubes. But it’s was not even anything serious. 🙂
But yes, it’s very difficult to cut, I did fit some head tube adapters from LS to a frame one time and they were slightly oversized and had an obvious step in the transition between the joints. So I sanded it and polished it to make it smooth for the customer so they wouldn’t see it. It took me about 4 hours of sanding and polishing to reduce it by 0.25mm! 😂
@@reginaldscot165 thanks for the information. I have only ever built up steel and aluminium frames and on all occasions they needed considerable work to get everything aligned and square. Thanks again keep up the good work.
I have Lynskey Helix now for three months and it is the smoothest riding bike I have ever ridden. I have carbon, aluminum and steel frame bikes also. When I put power down it goes down versus the others flexing! Glad I purchased the Ti frame!
Excellent. I’m glad you did. 🙂👍🏻
Like the video, thanks. :-) All good qualities of titanium aside, my biggest reason for titanium is quit simply just how pretty it looks and no need for painting and no rust. I absolutely hate dealing with (scratched) paint, not to mention rust. And if one thinks going for looks is silly then ask yourself why you shave your legs, the only benefit is improved looks, in my opinion it is a big benefit. The positive effects of feeling better and even performing better due to things looking better shouldn't be underestimated. :-)
The worst thing about shaving is leg stubble! 😢 I tried waxing but that comes with its own problems… 😂
@@reginaldscot165 😀Hm for some reason I don't have that anymore. Not sure why, maybe years of using razors made my skin used to it. Yeah I wouldn't try waxing either...
To perform well, any frame has to be engineered for the material and purpose. A poorly designed ti bike can be bad like any other material. The 'magic' of titanium alloys is their extremely long fatigue life- many times longer than any other material used in bikes. The side benefit of long fatigue life is that it returns nearly 100% of any energy put into it from flexing. What is perceived as damping is not, it's actually the least damping material, but can flex more than aluminum, carbon or steel with less fatigue, resulting in lower felt impacts- any damping comes from tires, saddle, bars and fork.
Aluminum and carbon embrittle and crack with age, steel and titanium do not (unless overstressed), but steel softens- it gets 'whipped', noticeable is a whipping action with excessive flex in the rest triangle when sprinting. None of these happen to a properly engineered and manufactured ti frame in a lifetime.
So yeah, in the hands of the right designer/builder ti is pretty magical, and if you don't chase bike fashion your ti bike can be an heirloom.
I'm very curious about your description of a whipped frame. I've never heard of this before. What is going on in the material in material science terms to cause this? Steel and Titanium have a fatigue limit, which is a stress level below which stress cycle do not contribute to fatigue failure. Aluminium does not have this, so every stress the frame sees contributes to it's eventual failure (Keep in mind that halving the peak stress requires around 10 times as many stress cycles before failure, so well designed Al frames can last a very long time). The description of a whipped frame is what I'd expect to see in a carbon fiber frame that's delaminating over time, so no external indication anything is wrong, but the frame is less stiff than before. The only thing that I can think of that would cause this in steel is fatigue cracking, which usually results in failure pretty quickly once the frame is less rigid.
Incidentally good carbon fiber is more or less completely immune to fatigue failure in the first place - the bike industry, even where they're using very good fiber grades, is probably not getting the best out of it because it costs a hell of a lot more than most of them are willing to pay to make really good carbon fiber structures.
@@peglor You're correct that steel doesn't have a fatigue life, but it's because its fatigue mode is to soften, not embrittle like Al and carbon, so doesn't fail, but does lose rigidity over time. If you're not a sprinter you're not likely to notice if a frame is 'whipped'. It's much the same as where old steel car springs sag a titanium spring won't for much longer. I don't know what's going on at the molecular level, but it's caused by heat due to flexing.
With carbon the fibers are too thin to fatigue, but it's the binding resin that fatigues to embrittlement, which weakens the matrix regardless of the fiber quality, leading to delamination and failure.
I've personally retired several steel racing frames that were whipped after 2-3 years, still perfectly rideable, just get a little squirrelly in a sprint... But I switched to titanium in 2001, and that bike is as lively as ever. I just built a ti gravel bike, and have a fantastic carbon road racing bike, but for crits my 23 year old ti bike is still my go-to. I won't touch aluminum frames because of some teammates' catastrophic failures.
I should mention the first ti bike I demoed was a Serotta, and I hated it. It felt like it was sucking the life out of my legs. I was so disappointed... took it back thinking ti wasn't for me, but the guy let me try a Litespeed, and OMG what a difference! I now have 3 Litespeeds and my new gravel is a Lynskey (the guy that founded Litespeed), all bought with my money. The moral of this story is not all ti bikes are made the same.
Wonderful comment and very informative! ❤️
Excellent comment, this is also my understanding, however this might be the first time I’ve heard of a steel frame getting softer with age. I will look into that. I love informative comments like this! Thank you. ❤️👍🏻
@@reginaldscot165 Thanks for your kind response. You probably haven't heard of whipped frames because hardly anyone raced on steel frames after the 90's so you're probably too young you have heard of it. When I started racing in the early 80's there was no option to steel, so there was a lot more awareness of its limitations.
After giving it some thought, the reason steel frames fatigue soften might have something to do with heat treatment of the steel tubes. The best steel frames were brazed with silver because it's melting temp is lower than brass, so less likely to soften the tubes' heat treatment- so it's possible heat generated by flexing could gradually soften the metal at the molecular level.
I have a road and a gravel bike from Moots, made of titanium. I love them both. A friend asked me to outline what I liked about the bikes and was it linked to titanium. I told him I thought it was, but that a bicycle is a combination of geometry, components, of which wheels and tires are such an influential part in ride comfort, that I didn't know for sure. I also told him that I thought it was entirely possible for someone to make a terrible bicycle from titanium if they didn't have the requisite understanding of bicycle design and manufacturing. Whatever the causes, I love my Moots Vamoots CRD and my Routt45. And I have owned carbon bikes from Cervelo, Specialized and Pinarello. These were not bad bikes, but I love my Moots. And by the way, the reason for the decision for titanium has to do with the fact that I have had problems with cracked/damaged carbon in my other bikes. Getting tired of that.
Your path to titanium is very similar to mine, I had a painful journey with some very expensive carbon bikes cracking on me and I had always dreamed of owning a titanium bike. Unfortunately I allowed peer pressure and marketing to get the better of me. I won’t make that mistake again and I will do what I can to inform people of the advantages of titanium. I think your answer to your friend was just about perfect. 👍🏻🙂
@@reginaldscot165 thank you for the fine complement. After two expensive carbon repair/replacements from o er torquing, I don’t plan to revisit carbon frames any time soon. In spite of their beauty, aerodynamics and general marketing appeal.
I don’t know if it falls in the same category, but I ride carbon wheels and carbon forks, so there’s some apparent hypocrisy on my part.
Props to Peak Torque to keeping on topic and not spilling nonsense about others, unless it's a mega corporation trying to rip people off of course! And props to you for meeting that tone, it's rare that people can stay civilised and agree to disagree.
On frame materials, for me and my budget there's no contest - steel.
Thank you for the nice comment. 🙏🏻
In photography they make tripods out of carbon fiber tubes for the weight savings and vibration damping. It could be the relevant frequencies for camera shutters are different from what you might get from road buzz. But then tires would be the biggest influence with any bike.
Marketing, firstly
@PeakTorque The retro grouch material is wood in the tripod world. Is anyone here to talk up wooden frame bikes? :)
It's probably more about target market, but every aluminum tripod I've used is a sloppy loose affair. A similar thing goes on with bikes, I suppose.
@@donbarnard82 Try the proper Manfrotto tripods - they're Al and absolutely solid. The ones I've used wouldn't be lightweight enough for carrying around all day though, but they'll quite happily support 10 kg of gear.
I have a cheap Chinese aluminium tripod I bought eight years ago, still works for my UA-cam videos well. 😁👍🏻
@reginaldscot165 maybe for video
The range of Young's modulus values you found for Ti are likely for the same material before and after cold working. Drawing the material into its final tubing dimensions and butting the tubing can all be done as a cold work process, depending on how much deformation is required (If too much deformation is required it has to be done at higher temperatures where the material is recrystallising as it is deformed). Cold working affects hardness (Which is the same as yield strength) but doesn't affect stiffness (Which is Young's Modulus).
The Young's Modulus is a property of the base material you're using, iron in the case of everything from cast iron and high tensile steel to stupidly expensive grades of tool steel, so they will all have similar stiffness, but vastly varying overall strength and failure behaviour.
Incidentally, magnesium is supposed to have a much better molecular damping than most other metals (Including steel and Ti) too. There's a lot of talk about thixtropic moulding of magnesium (Similar to injection moulding/pressure die casting, but at a temperature below the melting point of the material) being the next big thing in automotive mass production, with the inherent damping being a noise, vibration and harshness benefit built into the part. The material properties in thixomoulding can match forged components, so considerably better than castings in strength to weight terms too. Making a bike frame using this technique would be very challenging, though I suspect extruding tubes using this technique could yield most of the benefits. The other option would be to make the main frame in 2 halves and glue/weld them together, which Pole bikes has done for MTB frames, but at prices for an Al frame that make competitor's carbon fiber options look reasonable.
My knowledge of the specific modules doesn’t extend far enough to confirm or deny your premise. I can see the logic in it but I will need to do more reading. Vibration dampening is definitely something I would like to investigate further. 🙂
Steel bike curmudgeon here. I am perfectly happy with steel frames I have. But I've never experienced a titanium frame. Need to try one just to get a reference point.
Or more than 1. 😁
I want to personally thank you for all the information you provide for us who listen i got my first titanium bike and got about 200miles on it now a blackheart road ti and all i can say is WOW its a stable fast bike that as you have stated many times beats you up alot less than a carbon bike best decision i have ever made all thanks to you💪💪i will never go back to carbon ever✌️
Lovely comment. ❤️ A heartfelt welcome to the club my friend. 🙏🏻😁 May you have many happy years of riding on that Ti bike. 💪🏼
Had a Moots RCS that I sold for carbon bike. Most would say I was crazy but it was a pig, didn't particularly track well in turns (and this is Moot's racy bike), and felt soft. Having said that, it was buttery smooth but had no get up and go and lacked stiffness. Different strokes for different folks.
Yes that crazy. 😁 I would keep it for a different job than racing. Training or endurance. Different models and different brands will feel different just like any bike material. Nice to know it had a certain smoothness Ti bikes are known for. Had a customer who had a Moots bike he used for racing, he was very successful on it. Would often get within top 10 of any race and sometimes would get on the podium. 🙂
Although you clearly pointed out the lack of beef with Peak Torque, this was as good a dissection as the Hambini roasts. Wonderful, and absolutely fascinating. Now, can somebody please let me have a session on a f***ing Ti bike please 🙏 😂
Thank you, If you are ever in my area I will lend you one to try. 😁🙏🏻
So what company today makes good rim brake titanium bikes?
Good question. Video idea. 😁
Tyres, tyre pressure, contact points and geometry make far more difference to ride and comfort than frame material.
The way to really prove how a frame feels would be to strain gauge it and place accelerometers on various points to measure flex and vibration. Doing that on the same type of bike with the same components and geometry but only changing frame material would give measured proof of suppleness.
All those things make a lot of difference, but frame material/design also make a difference. 🙂
If I could do that test I definitely would. However I’m thinking of trying to test it some other way. 😁👍🏻
which does not explain the completely different ride feel when you take all the parts off a aluminium frame and put them on a steel frame. Completely different ride feel but same components.
@@kevvjj2629 but most likely not exactly the same geometry.
Great information Reginald, well done.
Thank you, hopefully. 😅
I normally do not agree with some of your videos but I do agree with this one. It all comes down to how the bike was built and the selected tubes. My Vamoots CRD is a dream to ride! So smooth . Is like I am riding in the air.
Great. You don’t agree because of an opinion or because I got something factually wrong? 🙂
Brilliant Video. I have a planet X Spitfire Ti which rides superb. I wonder who made those frames for them? The welds are on point. I think the geometry is suited to short crit racing though. Even though the material is comfortable I'm not sure it would be over 100 miles due to the aggressive geometry. Should I take it on a 10 hour ride or leave it for chain-gangs? Let me know in the comments.
If the geometry is a little aggressive then you can use a stem/steerer adapter to bring the front end up. 🙂👍🏻
Safe riding! ❤️
I have one titanium hip. I have one original human bone hip. I can't much tell the difference in how they perform. I have a custom Titanium bike (built in 2006) by a guy in Seattle. I won't identify the builder, but you can likely figure it out. I also have a pretty broad collection of carbon bikes from Italy, Belgium, and "made in Asia". And yes, I have also owned high end steel and aluminum bikes. The thing that all of the bikes have in common is Campy Super Record 11 or 12 speed mechanical and rim brakes. Each of the bikes is fun to ride and each has its own ride quality, but what sets the ti bike apart is a silky steady predictable ride and the frame itself seems to be indestructible. In and out of bike cases and all over the world, and still going strong after countless thousands of miles. It is always my first choice for consecutive high mileage days. There is no way that ti frame could have been mass produced like the carbon bikes. The measure that really sets the ti bike apart is that my prosthetic titanium hip never gets sore or tired after a long ride on it. I also, however, probably have to credit the designer/builder for that along with the frame material. I'm not an engineer, so I can't throw out a lot of technical jargon, but I am a committed cyclist, having started on a trike at three years old and now being seventy, and I can simply say: If you have a chance to get on a high quality well designed ti bike, do it. You will love it. BTW, Reginald is 100% correct in his video about why the peleton is not on ti bikes. Twenty some years ago many of them were but they were painted to match sponsor correct appearance.
Thank you, excellent advice and experience. 🙂🙏🏻
Hi Reginald, i'm Thomas from Denmark and thank you for some great videos. Have you seen Cade Media´s video where the bike fit guy talks about the difference between a 2-3000 pounds ti frame, perhaps made in the east, and a 6000 pounds ti frame, from Moots. He claims the cheap ones ride like aluminium, and often with a more harsher ride feel, and not really worth buying. He also talks about bad welds on the lower end ti frames - not all frames are made equal the guy says. I'm saving up for my first fitness road bike, but even entry level road bikes have become expensive I think, if you are also going for a descent pair of wheels. So I'm thinking of spending the little extra money and maybe go for a ti frame. Are the cheaper ti frames harsher to ride and worth to buy. Many thanks.
I think if it’s your first buy there are some great deals out there. The market has crashed completely so bikes shops like mine are selling off stock at Low price. Or check out my video on buying second hand!
ua-cam.com/video/2Tng6zDfX4U/v-deo.htmlsi=KjHdFbPVKYsA3Pvo
I’m sure cheap Ti isn’t as perfect as a Moots, but don’t forget that bike fit guy owns a shop that sells high end Ti frames. So he is probably going to be unhappy if people buy cheap bikes and not his expensive ones. 🤷🏻♂️
@@reginaldscot165 Ok thanks for your reply and the info, I was thinking the same, he probably thinks about the sale in his own shop. I have checked out the dutch bike company Van Nicholas , they have a broad selection of titanium bikes, and there is a dealer in Denmark. I have considered a steel bike also, but I think it is impossible to find a steel bike or frame in Denmark, it is all carbon. By the way have the soft paint on your Cinelli bike cured any harder.
I own an older 3/2.5 Litespeed titanium bike and it rides as smooth as butter. I also own a Cannondale CAAD10 aluminum bike, which also surprised me as it rides pretty smooth. Maybe it's the Cannondale SAVE anti-vibration design, but it surprised me. I will say though, my titanium bike looks brand new again with a little Scotch Brite, and no paint needed fot it to look great
Might be something as simple as the diameter or material of the seatpost? 🙂 I didn’t like my Nemo Tig that much until I put the carbon post on it and put latex tubes in the wheels. 😁
@reginaldscot165 you may be right, my aluminum has a carbon seat post. My titanium doesn't. It still rides great though.
@@reginaldscot165 💯
Hi,
I have a nemo tig too but I never could find a 26.6 or 26.8 carbon seatpost
Would be interesting to hear your take on magnesium because my two are steel and magnesium. I'm still debating which "feel" I like better.
My knowledge of magnesium ends in school science class. 😁
Ride quality is replaced by lightness and bling.
CARBON RULES
BUT STEEL IS REAL
Nice 👌🏻 🙂
That Litespeed frame has straight seat stays which, no matter which material it is made with, will be stiffer (less compliant) than seat stays made in an hourglass shape. I had an aluminium Cannondale R400 with hourglass seat stays and they definitely flexed over bumps. My new Merlin titanium 3/2.5 frame has the same hourglass shaped seat stays designed by for the same purpose.
I’m not sure I understand what an hourglass seat stay would look like? Are we talking cross section or do they literally get fatter in the middle? I think slightly curved tends to be more comfortable. But rounded and thin does help. 🙂
I actually prefer the stiffness and lack of comfort on shorter rides. So an aluminium frame plus carbon wheels, carbon seatpost and carbon forks works great.
Yes nothing wrong with a stiff bike for the right job. 🙂👍🏻
Very cool to see a fellow Brunei creator talking about bike. I’m new to the scene and saw a few of your video talking about Titanium bikes.
For someone who is new, what brand and model can I look at that you feel is value for money?
Hello, are you still in Brunei? If yes I have some Ti bikes for sale on a heavily discounted price. If not, I’d say buy second hand because not much in the bike industry is value for money nowadays. My main advice (my personal choice is) avoid carbon frames, but metal, go for smaller companies that have a good history and offer a more personal service or go custom if you can afford it. But I have a video on this:
ua-cam.com/video/2Tng6zDfX4U/v-deo.htmlsi=izup60ffMcXkSWmC
All the best!
Reg. 🙂
@@reginaldscot165 yup still in Brunei.
Ok, thanks for the heads up. I’ll check on the video later and see if there’s any question that pops up.
How is the overall experience as a cyclist in Brunei? As in the experience on highway or in the kampong? Will drivers give way or slow down?
@@reginaldscot165 You have any 56cm rim brake bikes? Sounds like you don't want to ship though. (M/L for LS)
Recently got a Ti bike and can say with out any doubt it rides 100 % smoother than my ALU and that has a suspension! I thought the whole subject was Bollox, funny because it was instantly the First thing I noticed, the ride quality between the both
That’s why PTs video is soooo frustrating. Because at the end of the day “why” titanium bikes have a smooth ride quality is unimportant, they simply do. To then make 1000s of people believe they don’t is ludicrous. 🤷🏻♂️
This discussion seems a bit anachronistic-in 2024-especially for riders that now ride with higher volume/lower pressure tires. I think that that cyclingabout has a video with a more useful take on this-"Why its impossible for steel frames to be more comfortable than aluminum". Alee talks about the importance of rate of springs in a series. I personally think the frame is the last place I would look to get more damping or "comfort" in this series.
I have a stiff, light, and very inexpensive aluminum frame on my city bike. It is rather unpleasant on 25mm tires. On 32mm tires, it is a heavenly ride.😊
I have 50mm tires at low pressure on my all-road/ATB bikes, with multiple bags on those steel frames.
Now I have $$$ left over for more tires. 🤘
No comment 🤷🏻♂️
plastic bikes, carbon bikes 😄 I have to agree with you. With the world filled with plastic, i prefer metal. Maybe that's ther reason Rolex will never release product with carbon fiber case.
Interesting observation. 🙂
Another name-dropping for the views 😂💯
Oh yes because if I mention anything or anyone it’s name dropping for views! 😂 I shouldn’t mention any brand as well just in case!
I have had 2 titanium bikes fail on me (GT Lightning and Merlin Ti) in normal use no accident. I have 4 carbon bike none have failed despite more use. The problem with Ti it is difficult (nearly impossible) to repair. I am not an engineer so take a more layman´s approach. If the QC on carbon is OK it produces a cheaper frame than Ti and at least as good a ride quality. I live in Spain and if I see a Ti bike the owner is usually American or UK and over 50 !! I honestly believe carbon has made Ti obsolete.
Ok so let’s assume your story is true and you haven’t left out any important details. Your experience is like 1 in a million, maybe 1 in 20 million. Yes sometimes Ti bikes crack, but most come with lifetime warranty as standard because normally they don’t. People are riding around on Ti bikes that are 30+ years old. I had a high end carbon bike crack on me from normal riding after 6 months. Not repaired as it was impossible and the shop refused any return or refund. Is it the norm, no but it happens. The reason you might see older people riding Ti is: 1) They can afford it. 2) they prefer the ride quality as it’s significantly better than carbon. 3) older people have more life experience and as a result often make better decisions. 4) they bought it 20 years ago and are still riding it.
@@reginaldscot165 Litespeed specifically exclude fatigue failure from their 'lifetime' warranty coverage. Also if you buy the frame from them and build it up yourself the warranty is void because it wasn't assembled by a Litespeed certified tech. Every so often I go looking at what's out there in Ti frames and reading their warranties puts me right off throwing money at them again. Giant and Trek's lifetime frame warranties actually cover fatigue failure, which, apart from ending up under a truck, is what kills most bike frames - I know because I've claimed for fatigue failures from both.
@@reginaldscot165 5) they no longer care what others think of them and therefore peer pressure is no longer a factor in their lives...from experience. 😉
@@peglor "Litespeed specifically exclude fatigue failure from their 'lifetime' warranty coverage. " Laugh. Still not enough for the Reg though, no doubt.
I agree, carbon fiber is better！
I noticed that we require two rear view mirrors on motorcycles here in the US, yet most cyclists rarely find it useful to use mirrors. But they have rear looking RADAR with all of that cost, mounting and batteries. Maybe carbon fiber framed mirrors would sell. But they still wouldn't look cool would they, and that what it's all about.... sadly.
I look over my shoulder, but then again I do the same in the car because I can’t trust my mirror to show me what in the blind spot?
Nylon and steel strings sound extremely different. Steel is much denser than nylon. To get the exact same note involves a few variables - string thickness, string length and string tension. You can certainly tune both types of strings to the same pitch (frequency). However they will feel different under the fingers and the sound will be different, a product of how each string reproduces harmonics.
That's my amateur understanding of it. There's probably more to it.
Oh and I have a mid 90's Raleigh Mtrax ATB. Bonded, part titanium part steel. The glue is still holding out!
Your explanation sounds good to me. 😉
I have exact copy of Colnago C64/V2R geometry in titanium, same wheels, same tires, same handlebars, stem, saddle, they handle exactly the same, but titanium is far far more comfortable to ride and little more fun. Only 500 grams weight difference.
Sounds awesome, I’m thinking of doing something similar with a bike I have in steel. 🙂
0.2% damping, one says... then resonant frequency is important isn't it, rather than the frame size... Because a critically damped system will come to standstill within the cycle upon excitation, is that what one would call "100% damping", right? I don't know how much 0.2% is in terms of number of cycles, i don't really have the brain to think it through, and one way or another it's a simplification which doesn't need to be strictly correct in order to be useful (exponential decay never stops, it just reaches any given threshold), but let's say it takes 5000 cycles to settle, which means we're talking fractions of a second to a handful seconds of settling time, right? You're going to feel a difference. I wonder how it actually works out, i have no idea.
One could say, guitars sound more similar than they sound different because we tune them to produce the same notes but also to sound like a guitar, while there are any number of stringed instruments which don't sound like a guitar; but i would expect bikes to be tuned for their load bearing capacity rather than sound :D
Excellent thought provoking comment. 👍🏻🙂
Pitiful. He either misunderstands what Peak Torque says or deliberately chooses to distort and misrepresent it. Constantly putting words into Peak Torque's mouth that were never used. Only one of these two is a real engineer who actually understands the material properties and science. And it's not Reginald Scot. If Peak Torque really did say his video "was not my best work" (I've seen it), all I can say is that PT's worst work is still far, far better than anything I've seen by Reginald Scot.
I'm sure there are valid arguments in favour of titanium bike frames. This guy sadly is not the person to make them. It's all emotion and the sort of marketing puffery he accuses the bike industry of. In anotgher video, his comments about German WWII tanks are frankly ridiculous. As is the claim that he can somehow "feel" a 0.2% difference in a material property and that this in some unexplained way "scales up" when the material is put into a bike frame. It doesn't.
And in none of the supposed analysis does he even stop to consider bike frame geometry or tube diameters, sectional shapes or butting. Or the quality of construction and tolerances.
For the record, I ride older steel road bikes. Some ride very, very well. Others are very stiff and harsh. Double butted, thin walled tubes seem to give a much better ride (as well as being much lighter). But things like wheels and tyres also matter.
I think you are the one who has misunderstood, it’s quite obvious from your comment that you don’t comprehend the issue with the PT video and you don’t understand where he went wrong. 🤷🏻♂️
Please calm down before you die from a brain aneurysm or heart attack. Because man do you get emotional about UA-cam videos. 😅
I think your overreaction is testament to quiet an unstable mental state. 😳
Also it’s fascinating to watch you misrepresent the content of the video in such an extreme manner?
In 1 paragraph you claim I didn’t even mention tube shapes? Did you not watch the video? I mentioned it several times. In fact it was 1 of the main points. This is why you sound unhinged to me. 😅 More like a Hambini catamite than a PT fan. 🤣
Your final paragraph is in many ways in total agreement with me, but you are still angry about it for some reason?
Get well soon. 👍🏻🙂
@@reginaldscot165 What a sad and deluded person you are making up all this nonsense. I think it's called projection.
You say in your video that you don't care what other people think. And yet you spend your time launching into all this personal abuse !
Huge thanks for titanium is that you can buy frames and that frames hasn't proprietary seat post and headset
Good point. Until they go aero? 😉
@@reginaldscot165 even then you can use common components instead of specialized/pinarello specific
Yes that is important, I have been able to fit modern Enve fork, stem, handlebars and seatpost to a Merlin frame that is at least 10 years old. No compatibility problems at all because nothing on the frame is proprietary.
Titanium frame can have much more flex than Alu frame due to yield strength (point of permanent deformation), this is value used for design calculations.
Yield strength for frame grade Titanium is ca 530 MPa vs Alu 6061 around 100 MPa vs Steel ca 800 Mpa, so Titanium can have small diameter tubes, with higher loads and more flexibility.
Alu frame would not return to original shape if would flex as much as Titanium or Steel frame, so flex is designed out of Alu frames.
Titanium and steel makes better springs than Alu and smaller diameter profiles have much more flex.
Good comment. 👍🏻
Internal damping matters. If you have a steel tuning fork and a titanium tuning fork tuned to the same pitch, and strike them equally hard, the titanium fork will ring about twice as long. Where does the energy in the steel fork go? It is converted into other frequencies, which is what is perceived as harshness. Aluminum has more internal damping than steel, and carbon fiber has the most of any common frame material.
This is a subject I definitely need to read more on. Especially vibration, I’m still not 100% sure my understanding on vibration is complete, I feel like it’s a big gap in knowledge that I need to improve. 🙂
@reginaldscot165 an experienced violinist can, blindly and with fairly good accuracy and repeatability, assess the value of a violin by playing it. It's 100% quantifiable magic. As a violinist who has taken up cycling, I have yet to convince a cyclist that a bike is anything more than a damped spring diagram.
I have aluminium, carbon and titanium bike aluminium is the less comfort and most stiffness ride feels. Titanium and carbon are quite different as due to materials and design from different bike manufacturer made them. From my experience different design of both carbon and titanium can be most comfortable and stiffness as each materials used. So it is all depend on individual prefrences on riding conditions.
Yes. 🙂
28mm tire should provides much more suspension travel than any road frame, making frame material much less important
This is like the argument people with heavy bikes make against my light bike.
“You are better saving weight off your body than dropping weight from your bike.”
My response is “why not do both?” Why not try to lose weight from your body and your bike? Why not save 2kg rather than just 1kg? 🤷🏻♂️
Same argument here. “You don’t need to worry about the frame, just put fat tyres on it.” My response is “why not consider both.” A comfortable frame and tyre will be better than just a tyre.
Also consider the weight and speed loss on road conditions of a fatter tyre. If the roads are roads then thinner tyres are faster. A more comfortable frame allows you to run thinner faster tyres and not suffer. I ride on 23mm tyres on my titanium bike, sometimes 200km in 1 day without any pain. I have another less comfortable bike with 28s on it and it still hurts to do that kind of distance. 🙂
@@reginaldscot165 Yes, titanium frame may have better characteristics, but has also significant cost. For average guy is most reasonable to upgrade tires first to eliminate road buzz. Rolling resistance of 25mm or 28mm tires should be same or better as 23mm on ''average, imperfect'' road, with added advantage in grip, safety, much less vibrations and possibility to go off-road since 25mm has 25% and 28mm has 50% more volume over 23mm. Weight difference of tire should be negligible, only negative I see is aero loss.
I have an Aluminum 2016 Specialized Allez E5 sport with 45mm Winspace rims. The bike is supposed to be a harsh ride, because it is Aluminum. It all bullshit just enjoy riding.
Ok 😁👍🏻
Any thoughts on forks?
I prefer them to chopsticks. 👍🏻🙂
@@reginaldscot165 plastic over bamboo? Raked steel forks seem to be easier on the front end in the long run.
02:07 mic drop moment 🤣🤣🤣
Sometimes I wish more of my bones were clad in titanium. 😅
I don’t like the derogatory term „plastic bike“ for carbon bikes. After all, most of your beloved titanium bikes have carbon forks, so why use those manufacturers them and why are people buying them if it is cheap crap? What the engineer makes out of the material decides wether a bike is good or bad; and especially carbon gives him the potential to make awesome or awful bikes… of course their are people loving steel, titanium, aluminum or carbon and nothing wrong with that, but imo the arguing about „the best material“ is pointless - quality is always about every specific bike
So you object to me calling Carbon fiber-reinforced polymers, AKA light fiber-reinforced plastics… “plastic.” Noted. 🙂👍🏻
Why are people buying them if they aren’t good? Marketing. Just because something is popular doesn’t mean it’s good. Some of the worst things in history have been extremely popular among the masses…
I'd like to get a Titanium Bicycle one day.
Me too! 😅
Anyone know of good Ti road-bike brands you can get in the UK?
With the power of the Internet you can get anything you want, or are you specifically looking for a British brand? 🙂
PlanetX offers their Titanium Titus range. Made by Waltly, although PlanetX will not state that publicly.
Lifetime guarantee on the frames. Build- & ride quality is excellent.
I ride the Roadrunner XL with triple butted main frame and double butted stays, since two years, 15k km.
Bought their gravel carbon fork for extra tire clearance.
The ride is plush. I use a 49mm fr. / 50mm rr. wheel set for gravel and underbiked mtb
and a 32 mm tire wheel set for long distance road trips.
Take a good look at the stack numbers, most of their bikes come rather low.
Also PX offers a great buying experience and offer regular discounts..
My SuperSix EVO Hi-Mod team edition is going up for sale.
Likewise my TCX Advanced 1.
~PeakTorque is not correct with this oversimplified equation! There are at least two more factors involved: damping and the shape of the frame. Unfortunately damping capacity is the worst with steel and the best (at least in theory…) with carbon composites (if the composition is made well…), with titanium and aluminum in between. But the manufacturer can ruin all the capabilities of the material by bad design - the early carbon frames (which where really horrible!) are good examples for this
I can see where you are coming from here. I agree there is more to it.
Legitimately-what’s up with those carbon wheels? Its the part that I have broken or bent the most, why run something that is well known for breakage? and in a place where a catastrophic failure could mean a crash.
That’s kind of my opinion about carbon gravel bikes? It make’s literally no sense. 🤷🏻♂️
As Richard Sachs says, the frame isn't the bike. The wheels aren't the bike. The material isn't the bike. The bike is the bike. You can't just substitute the same sized tubes of different material. Mostly though, the issue is how vague natural language can be if you aren't very careful with phrasing.
Good comment. 🙂👍🏻
When you go shopping at the usual places in the last 20 years you have to choose your bike amongst the carbon frames. Only the most budget variant is still an aluminum frame. To get any other frame material you have to look outside of the mainstream - which is unfortunate. Steel is still the best material. Rockets to Mars are built out of steel. So steel is the foremost aerospace material. Nothing beats the pliability and durability of steel. When you shear aluminum with (I assume) a steel bar it looks under the microscope like when you put butter on your knife. Everyone not using steel for the bike frame and fork needs to explain himself.
Agreed 👍🏻
so weird that this discussion is still going on; nothing beats steel for bicycle frames in almost every real-world scenario.
I believe metal bikes are better for 99.9% of the cycling population. 👍🏻
@@reginaldscot165 i think they're better for 100% of the population, for 90+% of their rides. Even the diehard racers would be better off owning a steel bike for training/commutes/etc... They can keep a CF for actual competition
This is some PETTY mess because ONLY someone extremely bored, lonely, and petty will take more than 10 seconds to debate this. MOST of the time, people buy bikes to ride places, group rides, solo training, and pure enjoyment. In other words, most of the time people are NOT racing, and even if they are, it's more the rider/training, than the bike. MOST people will NEVER race professionally, and even for the pros, the failure rates of bikes is minimal. MOST of the time, your bike WILL NOT break, will perform, and you will ride it for decades, except for crashes. So this 'debate' ends up being something other engineers and bike builders need to address, not the layman. MORE OFTEN than not, the comments about bikes are ONLY preference and opinions, and those are not facts. That means in reality, someone can win races with steels, carbon, titanium, or aluminum. If you really want the populace to know something you only bring the facts, and then hope they do their own research. All this hype about frame materials is simply propaganda and scamming to sell bikes that are overly expensive. Did you say you want no WAR with PT? How is there a WAR with another man online???That is hilarious. I would laugh my azz off if some man declared war with me typing on a computer/creating content. I had an old schoolmate who addressed me on FB, and I exposed him, because he is creating hype while doing NOTHING he complains about, and because he had NOTHING to say to me while we were in school, in person. The Internet is not the same as being out in the real world, and yes, I rode bikes for decades and still skate professionally..People used to try and make the same debates about what skates were 'better'', and the fake debate did not last long.......
That was an interesting comment with some good points, I disagree that frame material is irrelevant and that this debate is only to sell more expensive bikes however. Because I’d often tell people that aluminium is a good option for people on a budget and that titanium or steel is a good long term investment.
@@reginaldscot165
That is a FACT that it is not relevant to MOST people because ALL the bikes perform on a similar level for the Majority...Those small nuances like fit, comfort, feel and how it looks are subjective /preferences. If 60 people ride a specific $13k bike, they either are sponsored or just have a good amount of money, because it's NOT $5000 BETTER . I the racing world, you have 200 freaks in the peloton who ride the same races year after year. It's not Bill nor Sam who make $300k a year as software engineers racing, it's actual the same folks with genetic advantages.
I know this because I am one athlete over 55+years old and a professional skater, who only stopped riding to make sure my son was doing well in school/life.If you do not agree this debate is not OLD, dusty, ancient, and redundant, then how come this SAME ,SAME ,SAME , SAME pops up on UA-cam EVERY single year ,for the past 20+ years? This is NOTHING different than PC VS MAC, Android VS. Iphones, and the dumb 'format' wars with cameras...SELL MORE STUFF scams..
Steel and titanium are the best material for a bike frame and aluminium is second best, in my eyes!
I have to agree 🙂👍🏻
ti rides comfy like steel, what do they have in common? skinny tubes, aluminum usually has bigger tubes which means less comfort. its not ti its tube size and shape. again proves ti isnt worth the cost. ti is also very weak, aluminum has to be added or it would fail terribly.
I don’t think you paid enough attention to the points. 🙂 Also Ti is weak? The Ti in bikes and military equipment isn’t weak. That’s reality. 🤷🏻♂️
@@reginaldscot165 you need to do more research, ti is weak pure ti would break and fail if it were made into a bike frame, which is why they add other metals like aluminum to make it stronger.
Um, Alex wasn't saying that titanium is literally magical.
No he’s saying that people say it’s magic and he’s explaining why it isn’t. And I’m saying nobody actually thinks it’s Magic, it’s just a descriptive term to simplify more complex concepts.
@@reginaldscot165 I thought that's exactly what he meant, I don't believe that he thinks people think it's literally magic. I guess I'll watch it again, perhaps I'm mistaken.
My glasses are made out of Titanium
Aren’t they difficult to see through? 😎
ti is too expensive usually more expensive than carbon because its less available on the market, comes with a bigger price tag than carbon but none of the advantages like aero or comfort. also ti isnt worth repairing because of cost, carbon is easy to repair. a carbon bike is better in every aspect besides recycling, but a custom carbon bike can be made bullet proof - literally, and it would still be lighter than steel, maybe.
Show me a “bulletproof” carbon bike. I will wait.
@@reginaldscot165 why would i show you, you can wait all you want. i said a custom one can be made bullet proof just like steel, ti, or aluminium can be made bullet proof but the carbon one wouldnt be insanely heavy like all the others, it would be a cool gimmick bike much more useful than all the other gimmick bikes they make today that claim comfort compliance, aero, light, stiff, ect...
Still love my carbon!
Hopefully one day you will try steel or Ti. 🙂👍🏻
So, proponents of a one premium material (reserved for the upper classes) against the proponents of the another (use to be premium,but thanks to the incredible Asian efficiency and cheaper labor not any more) are debunking each other... Well
I'll go ride my poor Man aluminum bikes!
Btw... Steel is NOT more comfortable than aluminum
And thick aluminum tubes can NOT be of the same weight as the Titanium!
Thin yes, thick no!
Greetings from Croatia 😎
Aluminium is a good choice. But aluminium is lighter than titanium, so how can thin aluminium tubes be the same weight as a thicker thickener titanium tube? 🤔🙂
@@reginaldscot165 You misunderstood me! You said that thicker(not wider in diameter )aluminum tubes can be the same weight as the light titanium frame! I say no!That frame will be heavier! I own few light alu frames, they are older, but light...
The tubing is seriously thin!
In order for the aluminum frame to be light,the tubes need to have thin walls!
Wow. PeakTorque was wrong in some statements, but less wrong than you.
His first sentence doesn't mean that Ti frames are wrong, but it simply says, it's not such a miracle, as lot of people think. Because some people give Ti actualy magical properties.
The problematic parts were highlited in those comments. He talks about speficic stiffness - stiffness to weight ratio - which is mostly irelevant. You don't design the tubing to meet target weight. You design it to meet target stiffness and strength. Ok - you can design the frame so, that it's stiffer in some direction and compliant in other - but in limited way. Basicly - if you want a stiff frame, it won't be very compliant. Ok - who want a stiff bike, buys a carbon (or "plastic" one). Who wants comfortable, goes for metal. There comes the strength part. Strenght to stiffness ratio of Ti is higher than other metals. If you don't want stiffness and need target strength, Ti let you do it with the lowest stiffnes possible. That's the miracle. Enough strong Ti frame can be the most compliant one of the all metals. All other would be stiffer to meet target strength.
And the BS with inherent damping? For real? You will scale 0.2 % over the whole frame? Do you know how % work? No, even if you scale it over the whole airplane full of bikes, it will still be 0.2 %. You won't feel a sh...
So Ti let you design a softer frame thanks to its higher strength to stiffness ratio. Thats all. No dampening. No other magic. Just strength.
I didn’t bother reading your full comment. I think you are being disingenuous in your opening statement so I will skip this one. If you just want to hold water for PT that’s up to you. 👍🏻
@@reginaldscot165 If you actualy read it, maybe your reaction wouldn't be pointless. And maybe you would know, you are not right.
4:42 baby
Baby baby baby oooow! 🤔
So you’re subjective and Peak is objective. Quite obviously.
Explain how.
@@reginaldscot165 you talk “feel” and he talks material science
titanium bike have freugency of tuning fork
Is that so?
There's no such thing as science, it's all art. Every true scientist knows that.
Interesting
Reginald you are at least as biased against carbon as you say that Alex is biased against titanium. Everything you are critiquing Peak Torque and what he is saying about titanium is true about you critiquing carbon fiber. Open your mind!
Remember. Don't get an aero carbon bike because it's uncomfortable, but do use 23mm tires because they are more aero and weigh less. :)
Agreed I’m very biased against carbon bike frames. But what I say is different if you pay attention. Being against a material based on the facts is perfectly fine. The difference to me is obvious, PT said a lot of negative things about Ti and then bought a Ti bike. I haven’t done that. PT said Ti bikes don’t have a smooth ride quality, but they do. You don’t hear me denying similar facts about carbon bikes? I admit carbon bikes are light for example. What I say is aluminium bikes of the same price or less can be as light or lighter than some carbon bikes so why bother with carbon. You see the difference? 🙂
Only if you have a comfortable Ti or steel bike, if you bought carbon aero bikes then you are screwed. 😂
@@reginaldscot165 You have a very preconceived bias against carbon bikes and that affects your opinion of them. Nothing will convince you that a carbon bike can be a very comfortable ride.
@@doughorner5730 I have owned carbon bikes and I’ve probably ridden more than most people here as part of my job. Yes, as I have said, some aren’t bad. But they will never have all the advantages and comfort of a good Ti bike.
Great video calling out PT in this way. PT uses his math to blind us with science, but can not feel anything else in the process. I dont know if this is because he has a massive brain, or a very little brain. Does it take a massive 🧠 to understand equations or a tiny brain not to be able to feel anything.. I think PT likes to project he is a Nasa astronaut, but reality he would be one that has never flown in his life, let alone be able to fly a plane, but says he is qualified to fly a space shuttle 🚀 😅
In my opinion PT doesn’t deserve any hate. He mostly makes good content, I wish mine was half as good. 😅 We all make mistakes and we all have flaws and blind spots… save your hatred for someone who really deserves it… someone without any redeeming personality traits, like Hambini. 🤪😂
All the best and safe riding! ❤️
@@reginaldscot165 No hate here just my thoughts and opinions like PT, backed up with less math, hopefully some dry humour, a dash of sarcastic lunacy, and a truck load of absolute mentalism 🤪🤣🤣
@@reginaldscot165 and keep banging your hairdresser
@@hutchy_4297😂😂😂
💥 @peaktorque @hambini 💥
PT has seen it. The opinion of Hambini doesn’t matter. ☺️
PT is quite a tall fella I believe, riding a large frame. would be interesting to see some calcs on bending moments of 2 frames in different sizes of the same bike . Probably easier to engineer a bike for a smaller, lighter less powerful rider ?
For sure. 🙂👍🏻