Thanks for all the comments so far. Some assumptions/approximations for the dynamic model: 1. The 'tibia' or shin length of the link is assumed to be the hypotenuse between the actual tibia length and ankle to cleat measurement. This is an approximation to make it work in the four bar analysis. Ankle flexion assumed constant. 2. Crank angular velocity assumed constant. This is imperfect as the crank vel varies with load in 1 rotation.
Eduardo Bueno What’s interesting is if you repeated that mathematical process with 10 different riders (or even the left hand side of the same rider) you’d more than likely get a different result. Again, it’s pretty easy with the right tools to measure the angles your study has extracted. Studies have shown that more elite riders have a tendency to drop the heel less in the first phase of the stroke. The pedal stroke dynamics of individual riders is learnt (by huge amounts of repetition) and is very individual in itself. The real world challenge for bike fitters is to allow for individual movement patterns and more often than not, asymmetries in those patterns.
@@JerrysScenicCycling I would imagine this to be the case indeed. Cleats position affects muscle recruitment. Far too forward requires more calf to stabilize the foot for pedaling. Another issue is the shoe. Sometimes, larger-size shoes are purchased to deal with wide feet. unfortunately further moving the cleat screw-in position forward (as opposed to buying actual wide-style shoes).
Lyan Villacorta Such an important point. I see so many bike fit clients who turn up with big shoes because they have wide feet. There are some great wide fit shoes on the market now, so if you have wide feet it’s really worth taking the time to get the right shoe. Different brands have different hole positioning relative to their last too. The first Fizik shoes that were released 10 years or so ago had holes REALLY far forward. Bont have them pretty far back. Do your homework before buying.
4 years later, the short crank hype is in full swing (I fully subscribe to it), and this is still the best youtube video on the topic. Have revisited it for the 4th time now, great work!
As I aged, I noticed that my warm-up for rides to the point where I could accelerate with the group was taking longer and longer. I am 6'4" tall and have used 175 cranks forever. I decided to try 172.5's, and that warm-up period more or less disappeared. Also, my pedal stroke up very steep hills smoothed out. Since I am about to turn 79 (tomorrow) and over the last two years, my power has almost disappeared, so every little bit helps. Over the past 12 months I've ridden 5,000 miles and climbed 80,000 feet which is about one third my normal climbing (last winter destroyed many of the hill roads) I have been unable to easily find the climbs best suited to me. Plus, with my degradation of power, I am too slow to ride with the group and so have to ride solo much of the time. But the improvement in power with the shorter cranks. I am able to continue even on the worst sections, though I am crawling over the steep sections.
2 key problems I have with this analysis are failure to adjust seat height with crank length and the acceleration analysis assuming consistent velocity. When crank length is reduced by any measure, if saddle height is adjusted such that the bottom of the pedal stroke remains consistent, the effective change at the top of the pedal stroke is doubled. Also, there are several studies that show that reducing crank length results in increased preferred cadence. This would mitigate some if not all of the acceleration difference we see in your graphs. I also suspect that most cyclist's have a preferred/threshold of force per pedal stroke, and this is why we see higher preferred cadence for higher wattage.
I was thinking the same thing regarding the lever x velocity; that the increased cadance to compensate for the shorter arm would mitigate (part of) the acceleration difference. Curious how much it actually is.
far from you I know but I got 155mm short cranks for my...eMTB cough...anyway I had to raise saddle and handlebar or there was no way I could pedal in OFF mode properly and I try to do all flat and slight uphills in OFF as much as I can, I'm not a road cyclist but most of my muscular XC rides are on roads lots of cat1/HC climbs alongside road cyclists I know what pedaling up Mont Ventoux is and how important proper pedaling is especially when you do 8hrs on a saddle
Being a shorter rider (173cm) I changed from 170 cranks to 165 a few years ago, it changed my life on the bike. It isn't just about the 4 bar. Shorter cranks allow the saddle to be moved up and back a few millimeters, for the same closed hip angle as the longer cranks, which unloads the weight on the hands, in my case it stopped numbness in my hands.
Worst thing about this video was that it ended! Really informative and thoughtful analysis of something I’m currently trying to get my head around. Thanks 👍
Been riding for 30+ years. Always had 170s, am 5' 7", and noticed that I always had trouble accelerating from a dead stop, or ever, as compared to my taller compadres. Switched to 165s about 10 years ago and, man, what difference! Changed everything. And now I know why. Thanks so much for this.
its because when your thigh or femur is slightly lower it will produce way more force compared to get femur being at 90 degrees relative to upper body. Its like doing half deadlifts. Also whenever I watch taller rider their knees never go up the same amount as it does on shorter riders. Not fair.
Fascinating study you’ve done here. I’m very interested in following your progress. My academic background was in Human Factors Engineering and Ergonomics many years ago before I started cycling. I have been searching for an analysis just like yours. I like that you also mentioned leg mass as well. I am about 185 cm tall with large feet (size 47), and big legs. I also have fairly long tibias. I do not use a power meter but I do get the feeling that I cycle better with shorter cranks. The joint angle I am concerned with is the knee. There is a very powerful fulcrum there as well and I want to continue to preserve my 65 year old knees. I haven’t measure power but is seems to me I am able to generate more power at the pedal with the more open knee angle a shorter crank provides. Knee angle and hip angle are related but I haven’t paid attention to hip angle. I look forward to seeing your next video on the subject. Thanks!
Best quantitative explanation I have come across. My background is on robotics and controls. I’ve analyzed the Puma (swing, shoulder, elbow, spherical wrist) geometries “many years ago”. I have not come across a proper linkage/geometric analysis like you did here. Thanks for creating intelligent, analytical content!
I touched on dynamics at high school, remember fluid dynamics in physics class. I remember we had to calculate the torque and kilowatts required for an oil pump to deliver X amount of litres per hour at a given RPM. The fluid viscosity was set and the pump volume per cycle was also set. Pretty simple with given data much harder to engineer.
I was a competitive skier and blew my ACL 40 years ago - back when surgical techniques were a little different than today. Anyway, now in my 60's - with minimal cartilage and arthritis in my right knee, shorter cranks make one difference that no other bike adjustment can make. Smaller circles means that your knee is less flexed at the top of the pedal stroke - this is a huge difference for anybody suffering from knee problems. For me, moving from 175 to 170 cranks means not just more comfort when cycling - it means I can walk normally the day after a long ride.
FFT!!! Could you add a video for all us fast-tempo long distance for-fun-pleasure riders. Less so than this video for explosive-power-racing types !!!! I'd love to think I'm fast and unlike Alehandro I was still fast at 40 and now 43 I've lost power and now just enjoy zone 4 no zone 5's
Good analysis. I ride long cranks (old school 185 and 180mm). Recently I have a bike with shorter (175mm) cranks. The feeling is very different. My second ride with the bike resulted in "exploded" legs after 75km. You really need to adjust to it timing wise. My cadence did not change (94rpm average). In several studies they changed crank length and tested in a short period of time. That would never give a good result.
The time spent reading or watching how to improve my performance normally yields a negative return on investment vs spending the time actually training. This video is an exception. It inspires informed experimentation which may indeed uncover flaws in my current setup. Being able to present significant ME theory to the point of almost sounding sexy is quite a testament to your overall skill set. 😊
Subjective comment: I’m 5’9” / 175 cm and in my late 50’s. I live on a small mountain range where my climbs average 5 to 9% with gradients of 14 to 18% common. I’ve had several road bikes in size 56 cm and they all came with 172.5 mm cranks. After reading and watching about crank length I went with 170 mm on my last bike purchase. I couldn’t be happier. The difference when climbing was immediately noticeable. I wasn’t straining as much, but I was spinning faster. My times going up remained about the same, but I feel better at the top. Thanks for the informative video.
Hi James I've always thought getting the right riding position is an art, but the science is all new to me. I would have immediately guessed that a longer lever / crank would make spinning easier, but I suppose that's where ergonomics comes in! Found your comment very interesting 👍🏾
I rotated my handlebars to have the drops closer to horizontal like you suggested in another video and I am now more confident and comfortable in the drops and use them far more often. Thanks, dude!
Great video ! With the reduction of crank length, should your model not also increase the seat height since the maximum extension of the leg is correspondingly shortened when the shorter crank is a the bottom of the rotation? That would open up the hips even more.
It does but you must consider that as one raises the saddle the setback incrementally increases too if the axis point is fixed so if you bring the saddle forward your hip angle is the same.
Very interesting. One idea I’ve got about the limitations of short cranks is that you spend less time in the down stroke of the pedal (due to shorter range and higher RPM). This gives less time for RFD (rate of force development). RFD is basically how quickly and simultaneously your neuromuscular system can recruit high threshold motor units. To demonstrate this, flick your hand with your finger. Supporting the finger at the nail with your thumb gives time for RFD. If you try flick by just extending the finger un supported, you can’t generate as much force.
Secondly, overly long cranks would put you out of the range of motion where you have maximum Actin and myosin cross bridging. This would also limit your force production. Example, flex your wrist (bringing palm towards your forearm) and then try to clench your fist. You have less strength than wrist in a neutral position because you’ve pre shortened the muscle and put it out of the range of maximal cross bridges
So would shorter cranks be better as your legs would be closer to resting neutral position? I think of long cranks as having to do a deeper squat. I could squat way more weight if I didn't have to go down as far.
Alexander Hardy yeah, if you had unlimited time to generate force you can achieve the maximum force in a narrow range of Motion (like the top of a squat). But, because the pedal stroke is high velocity, a shorter range of motion reduces the time you have available to generate force (it takes time for your CNS to send the signals and activate all your motor units). Realistically though, I don’t know how much difference it makes between 165mm crank and 170. I think track riders tend to use shorter cranks and they achieve very high peak power output? However, they are very explosive athletes and do a lot of weight training so they would be very good at quickly generating high forces. It’s possible that as you decrease your explosive strength deficit (the difference between your maximum force to the max force you can generate in the time limits of a particular movement), shorter cranks would become more useful to you? If you have low RFD maybe you need a Lower cadence and longer pedal stroke? Sorry not very helpful there, just thinking out loud.
When I was racing off road in the 90s, everyone was using 175+mm cranks, but being under 5.5 ft tall with short legs, I found 175 cranks just too long. I switched to 170s and never looked back.
I would love to see how an oval chainring plays into this equation and also the other interest would be how cadence speed would it should change to create the same output. Great clip.
Earlier this year, after watching this video, I went and changed the crackset on the cheap on one of my bikes from 172.5 to 165 mm (for about $40). I tried this out for a few weeks and it felt less fatiguing overall and enabled pedaling at about 10 rpm faster. It also alleviated saddle discomfort for me, especially at higher cadences.
Watched this video and would like to comment on your CAD model/dynamic simulation. In that model the angle between your ankle and lower leg is held constant, which you do mention at approximately 12:25. For your CAD model what you should do is constrain the angle of the foot to the ground, not to the lower leg. If you watch riders from a side view you will see that through a full pedal rotation, the foot is held at 20-30 degrees to the road surface. This varies throughout the stroke, and if you could model this correctly in your CAD skeleton, you would see different results in hip angle especially at the top of the stroke (330°-60°). See if you can find videos of experienced cyclists on trainers from a side view and you will see what I mean.
I switched from 172.5 to 165 cranks a few years back for the reasons you so ably have shown in your presentation. Your presentation is the best I have encountered so far on this topic and validates my decision to switch to shorter cranks. Good to know that moving seat forward also helps to open hip angle. Maybe you could have a look at oval chainrings too, another controversial topic. Cheers
Thanks Norman. There are lots of assumptions and its a simplified model. Mixing engineering and biological/chemcia/neurologicall functions will never truly align.
The analysis of the bottom of the pedal stroke affirms what I've wondered. After making all other adjustments to seat position, my hunch was shorter cranks would make my hips happier by smoothing my extension. Data says yes. Thanks so much for this in depth explanation.
16:33 Did you account for the lower cadence longer cranks would permit at the same power output? The primary advantage of a longer crank is the ability to apply less force to achieve the same moment. Put another way: In order to average 200W with 180mm cranks, I would have to apply an average force of 177N at 60 RPM With 165mm cranks, I would either have to apply 193N or more likely increase my cadence to 65.5 RPM by selecting an easier gear. How much would that increase in cadence reduce the difference femurral angular acceleration?
I commissioned a custom-built frame with 80° STA and paired it with a 152mm crank. It took a little getting used to, but found no downside other than it forced my seat a bit higher, which made the seat-to-grip height difference a bit worse. I also had to switch from using RPM to using "foot velocity" instead. Thought cornering would be worse, but instead it actually felt like I got more consistent at them. In my head, I thought my legs were doing more of a rapid "piston-like" movement, like stair climbing, and speculated that this kind of position would benefit my fitness on foot (running), which made me wonder if triathletes were going after the same thing. Made me question the whole idea of going for different positions to rest overused muscles was even wise, compared to just giving the most used muscles even more training.
Great video! I would like to add a few comments and thoughts though. With the shorter crank installed, the saddle should be raised at least the equivalent amount of difference. This would open up the hip and knee angle further. Additionally, the angles can be opened up with a more rearward cleat position. The other factor to consider, on a road bike, is depending how far the saddle is moved forward, this can result in pressure and discomfort in the hands, wrists, shoulders and neck and effect breathing. There of course many other changes to be made, as a result of what I have listed above - "knock on effects" Enjoying the videos, keep them coming!
Id like to see you do a force vs. Femur/Tibia angle at the pedals. That coupled with the crank length should give you the best idea of optimal crank length to run.
When you said inertia, my ears pricked up. I am only 6'2" but my legs are massive (and long). I have gone from 175 to 172.5 cranks and have my seat slammed forward. I feel I get a more integrated comfortable feel. The problem is when im at battle speed, im often at 105 - 110rpm for long periods. This has got to take a tole on my huge legs. Interestingly the only time Iv been able to finish with the chain gang at the end, after 40 minute averaging 27mph, I was running 170 cranks on a single speed with a bigish gear.
@Alien On a Bike lol poor thing. It's people like you who get sheltered all the way across France, being dragged along by decent sized men up front. Only kidding I'm just jealous 🤣
I have a question regarding the the change to crank arm length: Why did you not change the seat height by the same amount? It is recommended to change the seat height by the same amount you change the crank length to reach the same effective seat height again. I see the value of isolating a variable in analysis, but in this case it does not seem correct to isolate this change when you will always change seat height at the same time. Further more so as in the next step you talked about the benefit of raising the saddle and setting it further forward. This would be the next logical step after reducing crank length anyway. Seeing bikefit as a system, where one parameter changes others at the same time, it seems to me, that it is not advisable to isolate changes for analysis.
This is a very interesting analysis thats is very well done, I understand the constant angle flection assumption as adding more DOF can drastically change the complexity of the analysis. One thing I was thinking whist watching is that muscles have different force production profiles depending on the amount of flection at the joint (amount of stretch on the muscle), and although such impediments as hip impingement is a first priority, to maximise performance with a force analysis, consideration to each muscles force production profile is needed for an accurate depiction. I have an inkling that the ratio of force production between the glutes and quads at their respective angles would contribute towards a total picture. Again great work, and thanks for the video.
Hi, thanks for the comment. You're completely correct I think. It just highlights how complicated an optimisation problem it is, there are sooo many variables.
it's neat to see the benefits of shorter crank lengths and I'd be interested to see how this could be adapted for MTB use where shorter cranks have inherent value anyways- fewer pedal strikes/lower BB for cornering aggressively. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if this is the next portion of geometry that gets pushed to the practical limit (like head angle, bar length, top tube length and stem length already have).
Well present video, thank you. As a touring unicycle rider the subject of crank length is always interesting. Road unicycles always use much shorter cranks than bicycles, mostly as being fixed gear it gives the best compromise of torque and speed. Gearing can't be changed but crank length allows for at least a change of leverage for different riding conditions, styles and rider's strength/skill. I run 110 mm cranks on a 29" unicycle and 127 mm on a 36" unicycle, others go much shorter down to 89 mm. It makes hills harder but cruising far less taxing and even a little faster, perhaps because the angular velocity allows for an easier passing of the dead spot at the bottom on the crank stoke. The issue I find hard to compare is rider position. There are no "bike fits" for unicycle riders! The basic position is much more directly over the crank hub with little room to vary seat position fore or aft and a very open "hip angle". I believe it's still be same 4-bar linkage so perhaps the mechanics are the same as on a bicycle. Maybe you can comment on that? Again, thanks for interesting video.
I don't think short cranks make unicycling any easer/faster due to the dead spots, I think it's simply that you are limited more by cadence and how fast you can move your feet, than you are by the amount of force you can apply to the cranks. to do 20km/h on a 29" unicycle you're going to need to do around 145rpm. You don't need much more power to do it than you would on a bicycle. If you try and ride your bicycle at 20km/h with a 1:1 gear ratio and the same 145rpm, you would be happy to have tiny cranks there too.
Noice! Have you considered or already done the 5 linkage version, adding in the ankle-to-cleat link? The whole "cleat under ball of foot" rule of thumb has also been subjected to actually doing the science and thinking about it from a biomechanical POV, with cleats being closer to the midfoot showing some real benefits, such as increased foot stability and reduced calf loads/fatigue.
I went for 220mm cranks, from 200 originally then 215mm, reason being, for me they feel comfortable. Like having a nice stretch or walking with a longer stride. I do have a 39 inch inside leg length though.
Amazing video! Interesting point about the self selection on gearing, which is something that I’ve had in the back of my mind when considering shorter cranks. It would be nice to know how much of an effect the shorter crank length has on the overall leverage provided, perhaps as a percentage. This could be of interest because it could inform whether or not different chain rings or cassettes, should also be considered, when going to a shorter crank length. I think most people are over geared as it is, but that’s a separate discussion. Thank you for diving so deep into this!
I suspect: What the acceleration peak allows is for you to drop the toe a bit through ankle flex. The toe drop absorbs the acceleration which works perfectly to begin the pull up cycle. If so, that could be an advantage.
5' 7" (30" inseam) and I find 170mm cranks too long. I've been experimenting with shorter kids bike cranks, 152mm to 130mm, and find that 1mm ends up equaling about 1RPM of perceived cadence. (85RPM @170mm feels like 103RPM @152mm) The cadence where I can hold my FTP at the lowest heart rate is about 95RPM. That seems to line up with the dynamic model that I should probably use 160mm cranks. Too bad they're such a PIA to find.
@@PeakTorque I managed to get some 160mm 105 Cranks. Instantly increased my average cadence by 8 rpm. Power is down a little because I'm not conditioned to the faster cadence. (Fast twitch fibers in the quads are on fire). Way more comfort, and simpler to find a good fit.
Thanks,I shall follow with interest. Another aspect: what if you have different leg length's and/or variances in tibea/ femur? E.G: my right femur is 22 mm longer than left,while the right tibea is shorter. Overall my right leg is 37mm shorter. To complicate matters my right ankle has a fusion and alignment issues,making for complicated bio-mechanics.
I'm 5'6 / 165cm with 29" inseam. I modified by machining two new positions on Shimano arms from 172.5 to 155mm. I also lifted my seat by about 15mm. The difference was compelling. For me, MUCH smoother and I stopped rocking on my seat. My Zwift output appears to have gained 5-10w at same heart rate. Too many geometry factors here for me to consider (or understand). My 'seat of the pants' mods tell me I'm OK with the new geometry.
By surveying some decent bike fitters… that fore aft seat position should not be used to open hip angle because moving seat forward means your torso can become unbalanced as it is more cantilevered over the bars.. this results in saddle sores and numb hands.. therefor fore aft position should be driven by balancing upper body weight.. I’ve experimented with this (and reach.. discovered that handlebar width increases reach!) and my numb hands and saddle sores are GONE!! Much better to use crank length since it doesn’t throw off everything else.
#PeakedTorque Did you account for the additional hip opening from a shorter crank because of having to lower the saddle because the foot will be higher at the bottom of the stroke?
Great analysis. I think the main problem is that road bikes are still way too conservative on their geometry. Crank length is one point - but the much larger problem is that road bikes seem archaic when it comes to findings on what is faster on mountainbikes, think Mondraker Forward Geometry or Pole bikes - mow more or less implemented in all bikes. Ideally we want much steeper seat tubes - maybe 76-77°, maybe even 78° as on Pole bikes (though then the more you use your bike for climbing - the steeper you like your seat angle), longer reach but shorter stems, and much slacker head angles (and yeah wheel base will rocket from the paltry 99cm to 110-115cm or so - notice enduro mountainbikes have arrived at 130cm already for a size large). The main problem is the handlebar width - going 10-20cm wider would likely be really beneficial fore most going uphill, but really inefficient in the wind. This would resolve a lot of too much weight on hands/shoulders problems. Someone really needs to think forward, forget UCI norms, and look at things that made mountainbikes fast. Then get people to train on a new geometry for some months and compare speed and comfort. Some things from the mountainbike side may not work on roadbikes (for sure no 75-80cm wide handlebars) but a lot will. To counter the slacker head angle and weight distribution - the chainstay length will need to grow too - however road bikes likely need much less weight on the front wheel vs mountainbikes - so shorter CS = less weight on your arms = more comfortable. And yeah if crankarms reduce in size, the long needed evolution of chainring sizes going smaller needs to continue too. Average Joes tend to run way too big rings up front instead of spinning faster and trying to choose a small ring that allows them never to drop below 80RPM on their steepest common climbs. It's crazy how conservate and stupid a lot of the bikefitting is on roadbikes - trying to fit people onto frame geometries that are simply wrong from the start. And yeah it needs a radical departure from the status quo. Most of bike fitting is simply an reaction to wrong bike geometries.
Agree, frame geometry needs to be looked at, seat tube angles are far too relaxed. I've always thought we should be far more over the BB in order to sync the lower body. I always slam my seat as fwd as I can and never have pain
@PeakTorque Could You make a follow-up for this video, regarding how one should choose crank lenght? I'm 189 cm with 91 cm inseam (long limbs, shorter torso). I have both 172,5 mm and 175 mm, i "feel" that I can produce power more easily with shorter ones (even with such minor difference...).
But wouldnt this imply 17:00 and ongoing that if you want high acceleration such as a sprinter you have an advantage with larger cranks? Meaning you can control your smooth efforts till the sprint and then u can crank out more force more accelerations with less pedal strokes. And if your a climber or flat racing guy you want smaller cranks to smooth ur effort and keep good endurance?
You could model the next video on a selection of frames in one series. Then mark out the heatmap of where the effective seatpost could even be, given the extension of the fore-aft, and similar for reach given available stems, and the same for crank length. What does that look like with a different colour for each frame, if all frames are stationary at the BB? Not only do some bike models have the same geo across their range, they also sport the same seat, stem, cranks, and gears (and hopefully BB height for the comparison). That seems wanting.
Great video, very informative and I love the use of engineering to debunk cycling myths. Did you ever make the follow up video about force? I couldn't see it
I'm 69 years old, 180 cm tall. I have 2.5 cm longer legs and shorter torso than average for a male of my height. Usually ridden 172.5 mm as that's what the bikes came with. But my Specialized Steel Langster had shorter cranks (165mm?) and I absolutely loved it, rode it very hard up and down hills in traffic and in rural areas. I had a chance to get shorter cranks when my 2018 Ultegra cranks were recalled and replaced last year... but I forgot! Now about £250 to get shorter cranks and that is a long way my pension budget list of desirable items
This relates to the Steve Hogg bike fit method. He looks for a constant velocity at the knee and tries to limit high accelerations. Would be interested to see the plot with a seat height 10-15mm lower.
This was a very useful exercise - it would be great if you did a follow up or two I'm particularly interested to see a comparison with Greg Lemond's method of setting saddle height from the BB
I'm 186cm but prefer 170mm cranks to 175mm due to bad knee (yeah, most people say I should use 172.5 - 175mm). Never thought about angles, but a friend recommended that I try shorter cranks to see if it helps with knee pain. I was sceptical at first, because in my simple mind, shorter crank means more torque and worse pain... But it worked! Your video explains a lot why it is so. I might experiment with saddle position as well. Thanks!
How does ST angle or more importantly , starting with correct seat angle for geometry of frame and saddle set back and height effect correct crank length , here ?
Superb. V interesting. Nice CAD idea, first thing I thought was surely it is a 5 bar linkage system ( to include foot link and ankle pivot) and glad you pointed this out at 12.22 that you assumed ankle flexion is constant and I think this is the biggest flaw in this model; would have been interesting to see the numbers where the foot is kept horizontal and ankle flexion allowed - think it would reduce the minimum hip angle differences. Also note how you have the ball of foot pivot is not perpendicularly below knee pivot at the 3 o' clock position of the stroke, as bike fitters often recommend. I will try your CAD idea however - think it is great. Would love to have seen the follow up about Forces investigation but couldn't find. My experience with shorter cranks were worse - you needed to go one bigger rear cog and therefore increase rpm to match the longer crank.
really interesting - also worth considering the positional change associated with shorter cranks, what i mean is; shorter cranks would mean saddle can go higher maintaining the same leg extension angles on the bottom of the pedal stroke - at 6 o'clock, and consequently compounded effect on hip angle of increase saddle high and shorter cranks as explained ?
I am retired and have ridden for over 50 years on the road. I still get 50 to 70 miles a week most of the year. But I am old school and know little about the reasons for crank length change. Old school was you don't want your knee in front of the axle when your peddle is at the 3 o'clock position. But I can see the advantage of moving the seat forward and up. When you get you knee in front do you loose any watts in your out put power? I would think as you move forward you affectedly in-gauge the peddle stroke a bit latter. Thanks for the video. I need all I can get ,it's tought keeping up with the young. LOL Rick D.
I had always wondered the effect of crank length for my neck! I'm fairly flexible but my neck has issues and wondered it crank length would help. And I'm a bit cheap on getting a proper bike fit.
Changing the crank length for neck issues is wishful thinking and expensive. First assuming that we're talking about road bikes if you have a visor on your helmet - remove it. Now. Visors are fine for mountain biking and such where you have a more upright posture but not for a road bike. After that I'd look into handlebar position. Usually this means that you want your handlebars to be moved higher and/or back.
How is your neck doing? I used to have more frequent neck aches than today. I find swimming really helps a lot to make it limber and any cycling helps the back overall if done for enough time.
@James Medina unfortunately I don't get on the bike as much as needed to properly adjust. The neck has gotten better as I adjust my fit. I've found that a zero setback sestpost and shorter stem are pretty much a must.
Ive got a shorter fenur to tibia to mist oeople which had ne trying shorter cranks but in the end i went to a longer crank. I positioned my saddle forward and raised my bars 10mm and my saddle 5mm. I have a linger longer extension but leverage has increased from 12 to 4 oclock. I find my out if saddle power is greater.
I have some sort of nerve problem possibly affecting the muscles in my right foot. It needs an orthotic for support. My ankles are the only hypermobile joint. The right hip is bothered for some reason, too. What would happen with a 73° seatpost ? I would go to 165 from 175. My femurs are 52cm long. I'm 189cm tall. Any thoughts? I went from racing cat 4 and 10000km/year to lots of intermittent pain this year.
+1 for the constraint based sketches! +1 for the consideration of acceleration! I’m cringing while thinking about my femur crashing into my tibia after the pedal upstroke. Perhaps the reduced acceleration profiles associated with shorter cranks could simply reduce knee strain?
Do you know if 'effective seat tube angle more important than crank length' is still true to the same degree on say a S(52cm) frame rather than L/XL(~58cm)? - In my mind it would be less impactful the smaller the frame, right?
very nice! have you looked at the premature wear of the tibia's meniscus wear and displacement of forces with different seat/seat angle/ fore-aft positioning?
Excellent video. Love hearing the workings of someone who knows his stuff. Had a quick look through the title of previous videos to see if there's interesting stuff there. Saw the name Hambini so instantly subscribed.
So longer crank means more torque, we can agree on that - it's physics. 4:53 shows "They do not increase power". Just because there's "no data, no proof", why would we conclude that? Maybe it's that I'm not looking at this from an aero TT perspective, but when you climb a long steep ascent, and you are running out of gears, don't tell me that an extra torque wouldn't help... I'm 6'4" with extra long legs (opposite ape index than people like Michael Phelps, so my wingspan is 4" shorter than my height, my torso is not XL just L, my legs are XXL long). I have trouble finding long enough crank arms and it just bogs my mind how can people even gravitate towards shorter... maybe it works for short people I guess?
Crank length is just part of the whole gear system that is: 1. Front chain wheel number of teeth 2. Rear cog number of teeth 3. Crank length 4. Rear wheel outer diameter of the tyre. Increasing crank length can help you in your bottom gear because you're changing the total gear ratio. Max torque thus power comes from the human. You can't magic it from nowhere!
@@PeakTorque For sure. I understand that the main focus of your current analysis was fit. I cannot wait to see power analysis. If we wouldn't focus on fit, then it'd be an interesting question what would be the power outcome once you have a given cog set and platters and your wheel size is given as well, only variable would be the crank length. Referring to the "They do not increase power" claim. I understand though that in the end the power comes from the human, and if someone has short legs, they won't be able to ergonomically apply the power to a long crank.
Really interesting. I'm trying to square it all with the fact that I just perform better on longer cranks (180mm). Anecdotal - I've got a better jump, I don't need to get out of the saddle coming out of tight corners, under effort I think more about muscle recruitment and ankle flexion, I'm thinking round the pedal stroke, ....and I really like the wider range of motion under light load for recovery. I'm going to try the CAD modelling, there might be something else going on if you remove the foot/tibia approximation and make it a 5 bar linkage. I think the ankle acts as a fluid coupling and damps that peak acceleration. Like you say, hip ROM is a red herring, there's lots of other stuff you can do to solve that.
How do Cyclists' hip angles compare (depending on condition) to Track & Field Sprinters???.... ie, can the Optimal peak power range of motion (excursion of max efficiency) help determine the best hip angles & thereby the crank length?
This a very interesting presentation. Have you considered expanding your analysis to include consideration of how changing the angular sweep of the thigh effects the ability of the associated muscles to output power? The analysis seems to assume that the leg muscles will be able to cope with all the resulting angular sweeps equally well.
That would be really interesting to do. Im trying to formulate some inverse kinematic model to deal with this but would also need some electro-gram medical grade equipment!
I went just recently over to 165mm cracks from 175mm cranks that I have used pretty much all my grown life. Well in the first two weeks if felt like the smaller circle you are pedaling in was so restrictive that I was about to change back. You got no power, and it feels like you are on a those tricycles if you remember those from your early childhood. But I noticed that I never ever had any pains or similar issues in the knees and the like, and even though I still am lacking in power it seems I am adapting to this as well. Oh yeah, I am 172 or 5,6 or 5,7 or something like that.
Isn’t there a knock-on problem or potential issue with moving the seat forward of changing the center of gravity and overloading the quads, as well as putting to much weight on the hands (potentially creating wrist or hand pain, and even neck pain)?
Great video and discussion thx. When you say you raised the saddle with the shorter cranks in Case 1, how much did you raise it and why? Are your normalizing for 'feel,' hip angle at the bottom of the stroke, or leg extension? If you were doing a similar kinematic analysis on a mechanical system, you wouldn't "raise the saddle." It's only when I started fitting using digital motion capture tools a decade ago that I realized the futility of this. I had spent the previous 20 years of my bike fitting career fixated (as many fitters are) on 'optimizing' leg extension for the pedal at the bottom of the stroke. There's not much power being generated there. Takes a bit of work but we can now test for different FTPs at different saddle heights, and most of the research finds that within a ~2cm band, power output doesn't change much (just as it doesn't change much for crank length). Raising the saddle also erases the significant aerodynamic advantage you'd get from the shorter crank (and resultant ability to lower the upper body while maintaining hip angle constant).
It is quite an expensive part to get wrong so I wondered if bime fitters could have adjustable cranks to fit to the client’s bike, rider doesna few test rides in different conditions and steepness of terrain and gets a feel for it, and perhaps power readings? How hard would that be to do?
for the accerelation and speed study, did you use a constant bicycle speed or constant crank rotational speed, meaning usually with a shorter crank, omega would go up
Great video. Another step to trying shorter cranks. Now 175mm for 170 cm rider. Amazing sound quality as well. Good sound quality not essential but adds to the authoritative impression!
Interesting. Never thought about it in terms of degrees/s of the femur. I have 175's and am considering 170's for less hip angle. But at age 60, I am more concerned about how raising the seat will then impact saddle to stem height and the changes I may have to make to the front end. One thing leads to another...... 😁😁
in my experience, it is all a matrix of bike geometry, body and adaption, and cycling environment ( eg. hilly, flats, urban, short circuits vs. endurance) - in other words, numbers (175, 170) are meaningless.
I know this vid is two years old... But on the subject of smooth or stochastic power requirements, would that have a very different response for climbing and for travelling at speed on the flat. When travelling at speed you are doing short spikes of power to keep the inertia high of the whole system. While when climbing you put power out though much more of the stroke. It's one of the big muscle differences between climbers and time trialists slash sprinters. How then would shorter cranks effect climber and fast finishers differently???
With regards to increasing the seat tube angle, the more forward your saddle is the more weight you offset towards the hoods (if we’re talking about the road bike position), there is still a limitation to this, so keep note everyone, sometimes a little bit of both reduction of crank length and proper saddle fore aft is key.
Hi, PeTo. I have gone from 172.5 to 165 cranks. With a smaller radius, theoretically, less time to complete a full round stroke, so maybe it’s a small handful of extra RPM benefit to the rider. But, the lever is shorter compared to a longer crank for the same gear combo, so theoretically, a few more watts and O2 needed to maintain the speed. Does the industry of bike making or bike fitment, have a model, to assess crank length? Is there a model to project how many rpm gain / lost or change of watts, when changing crank length? Is this even a valid construct, is it usefully consumable? Anecdotally, with 165, I have felt to click up one gear, e.g. 19T to 17T, and I think the ‘ol engine is working a bit harder. Could also be the extra bear fat accrued from covid hibernation.....I feel the stroke has smoothed out, where as on 172.5, the feet are thrown farther NSEW as they transit a larger diameter, and the stroke develops a lope in response. Cheers from the San Francisco Bay Area.
Thanks for all the comments so far. Some assumptions/approximations for the dynamic model:
1. The 'tibia' or shin length of the link is assumed to be the hypotenuse between the actual tibia length and ankle to cleat measurement. This is an approximation to make it work in the four bar analysis. Ankle flexion assumed constant.
2. Crank angular velocity assumed constant. This is imperfect as the crank vel varies with load in 1 rotation.
See this for some information on the ankle rotation during the pedal stroke: cds-0.blogspot.com/2011/09/pedaling-model-i.html?m=1
Eduardo Bueno What’s interesting is if you repeated that mathematical process with 10 different riders (or even the left hand side of the same rider) you’d more than likely get a different result. Again, it’s pretty easy with the right tools to measure the angles your study has extracted. Studies have shown that more elite riders have a tendency to drop the heel less in the first phase of the stroke. The pedal stroke dynamics of individual riders is learnt (by huge amounts of repetition) and is very individual in itself. The real world challenge for bike fitters is to allow for individual movement patterns and more often than not, asymmetries in those patterns.
@@JerrysScenicCycling really interesting results, thanks for sharing.
@@JerrysScenicCycling I would imagine this to be the case indeed. Cleats position affects muscle recruitment. Far too forward requires more calf to stabilize the foot for pedaling. Another issue is the shoe. Sometimes, larger-size shoes are purchased to deal with wide feet. unfortunately further moving the cleat screw-in position forward (as opposed to buying actual wide-style shoes).
Lyan Villacorta Such an important point. I see so many bike fit clients who turn up with big shoes because they have wide feet. There are some great wide fit shoes on the market now, so if you have wide feet it’s really worth taking the time to get the right shoe. Different brands have different hole positioning relative to their last too. The first Fizik shoes that were released 10 years or so ago had holes REALLY far forward. Bont have them pretty far back. Do your homework before buying.
4 years later, the short crank hype is in full swing (I fully subscribe to it), and this is still the best youtube video on the topic. Have revisited it for the 4th time now, great work!
As I aged, I noticed that my warm-up for rides to the point where I could accelerate with the group was taking longer and longer. I am 6'4" tall and have used 175 cranks forever. I decided to try 172.5's, and that warm-up period more or less disappeared. Also, my pedal stroke up very steep hills smoothed out. Since I am about to turn 79 (tomorrow) and over the last two years, my power has almost disappeared, so every little bit helps. Over the past 12 months I've ridden 5,000 miles and climbed 80,000 feet which is about one third my normal climbing (last winter destroyed many of the hill roads) I have been unable to easily find the climbs best suited to me. Plus, with my degradation of power, I am too slow to ride with the group and so have to ride solo much of the time. But the improvement in power with the shorter cranks. I am able to continue even on the worst sections, though I am crawling over the steep sections.
2 key problems I have with this analysis are failure to adjust seat height with crank length and the acceleration analysis assuming consistent velocity.
When crank length is reduced by any measure, if saddle height is adjusted such that the bottom of the pedal stroke remains consistent, the effective change at the top of the pedal stroke is doubled.
Also, there are several studies that show that reducing crank length results in increased preferred cadence. This would mitigate some if not all of the acceleration difference we see in your graphs.
I also suspect that most cyclist's have a preferred/threshold of force per pedal stroke, and this is why we see higher preferred cadence for higher wattage.
I was thinking the same thing regarding the lever x velocity; that the increased cadance to compensate for the shorter arm would mitigate (part of) the acceleration difference. Curious how much it actually is.
far from you I know but I got 155mm short cranks for my...eMTB cough...anyway I had to raise saddle and handlebar or there was no way I could pedal in OFF mode properly and I try to do all flat and slight uphills in OFF as much as I can, I'm not a road cyclist but most of my muscular XC rides are on roads lots of cat1/HC climbs alongside road cyclists I know what pedaling up Mont Ventoux is and how important proper pedaling is especially when you do 8hrs on a saddle
Being a shorter rider (173cm) I changed from 170 cranks to 165 a few years ago, it changed my life on the bike.
It isn't just about the 4 bar.
Shorter cranks allow the saddle to be moved up and back a few millimeters, for the same closed hip angle as the longer cranks, which unloads the weight on the hands, in my case it stopped numbness in my hands.
Same here.
lol if you consider yourself short, idk what I am (165cm), even 51cm frames feel big to me
Worst thing about this video was that it ended! Really informative and thoughtful analysis of something I’m currently trying to get my head around. Thanks 👍
As soon as I heard PowerPoint, I was waiting for 'aged 5' to appear 😂. Crackin' vid 👍🏻
pen is working
Been riding for 30+ years. Always had 170s, am 5' 7", and noticed that I always had trouble accelerating from a dead stop, or ever, as compared to my taller compadres. Switched to 165s about 10 years ago and, man, what difference! Changed everything. And now I know why. Thanks so much for this.
its because when your thigh or femur is slightly lower it will produce way more force compared to get femur being at 90 degrees relative to upper body. Its like doing half deadlifts. Also whenever I watch taller rider their knees never go up the same amount as it does on shorter riders. Not fair.
"Let's put some numbers to it" thank you! The lack of data and sound reasoning behind most discussions/debates in cycling has driven me nuts!
Fascinating study you’ve done here. I’m very interested in following your progress. My academic background was in Human Factors Engineering and Ergonomics many years ago before I started cycling. I have been searching for an analysis just like yours. I like that you also mentioned leg mass as well. I am about 185 cm tall with large feet (size 47), and big legs. I also have fairly long tibias. I do not use a power meter but I do get the feeling that I cycle better with shorter cranks. The joint angle I am concerned with is the knee. There is a very powerful fulcrum there as well and I want to continue to preserve my 65 year old knees. I haven’t measure power but is seems to me I am able to generate more power at the pedal with the more open knee angle a shorter crank provides. Knee angle and hip angle are related but I haven’t paid attention to hip angle. I look forward to seeing your next video on the subject. Thanks!
Best quantitative explanation I have come across. My background is on robotics and controls. I’ve analyzed the Puma (swing, shoulder, elbow, spherical wrist) geometries “many years ago”. I have not come across a proper linkage/geometric analysis like you did here. Thanks for creating intelligent, analytical content!
Oh man this brings back dynamics and kinematics studies from uni... Love it.
I touched on dynamics at high school, remember fluid dynamics in physics class. I remember we had to calculate the torque and kilowatts required for an oil pump to deliver X amount of litres per hour at a given RPM. The fluid viscosity was set and the pump volume per cycle was also set. Pretty simple with given data much harder to engineer.
I was a competitive skier and blew my ACL 40 years ago - back when surgical techniques were a little different than today. Anyway, now in my 60's - with minimal cartilage and arthritis in my right knee, shorter cranks make one difference that no other bike adjustment can make. Smaller circles means that your knee is less flexed at the top of the pedal stroke - this is a huge difference for anybody suffering from knee problems. For me, moving from 175 to 170 cranks means not just more comfort when cycling - it means I can walk normally the day after a long ride.
Beautifully done; loved the analysis!
FFT!!! Could you add a video for all us fast-tempo long distance for-fun-pleasure riders. Less so than this video for explosive-power-racing types !!!! I'd love to think I'm fast and unlike Alehandro I was still fast at 40 and now 43 I've lost power and now just enjoy zone 4 no zone 5's
Good analysis. I ride long cranks (old school 185 and 180mm). Recently I have a bike with shorter (175mm) cranks. The feeling is very different. My second ride with the bike resulted in "exploded" legs after 75km. You really need to adjust to it timing wise. My cadence did not change (94rpm average). In several studies they changed crank length and tested in a short period of time. That would never give a good result.
The time spent reading or watching how to improve my performance normally yields a negative return on investment vs spending the time actually training. This video is an exception. It inspires informed experimentation which may indeed uncover flaws in my current setup. Being able to present significant ME theory to the point of almost sounding sexy is quite a testament to your overall skill set. 😊
Subjective comment: I’m 5’9” / 175 cm and in my late 50’s. I live on a small mountain range where my climbs average 5 to 9% with gradients of 14 to 18% common. I’ve had several road bikes in size 56 cm and they all came with 172.5 mm cranks. After reading and watching about crank length I went with 170 mm on my last bike purchase. I couldn’t be happier. The difference when climbing was immediately noticeable. I wasn’t straining as much, but I was spinning faster. My times going up remained about the same, but I feel better at the top. Thanks for the informative video.
Hi James I've always thought getting the right riding position is an art, but the science is all new to me. I would have immediately guessed that a longer lever / crank would make spinning easier, but I suppose that's where ergonomics comes in! Found your comment very interesting 👍🏾
I rotated my handlebars to have the drops closer to horizontal like you suggested in another video and I am now more confident and comfortable in the drops and use them far more often. Thanks, dude!
Great video ! With the reduction of crank length, should your model not also increase the seat height since the maximum extension of the leg is correspondingly shortened when the shorter crank is a the bottom of the rotation? That would open up the hips even more.
Martin Anderson very true 👍
1:30 and 16:30 mentions that.
It does but you must consider that as one raises the saddle the setback incrementally increases too if the axis point is fixed so if you bring the saddle forward your hip angle is the same.
Very interesting. One idea I’ve got about the limitations of short cranks is that you spend less time in the down stroke of the pedal (due to shorter range and higher RPM). This gives less time for RFD (rate of force development). RFD is basically how quickly and simultaneously your neuromuscular system can recruit high threshold motor units. To demonstrate this, flick your hand with your finger. Supporting the finger at the nail with your thumb gives time for RFD. If you try flick by just extending the finger un supported, you can’t generate as much force.
Secondly, overly long cranks would put you out of the range of motion where you have maximum Actin and myosin cross bridging. This would also limit your force production. Example, flex your wrist (bringing palm towards your forearm) and then try to clench your fist. You have less strength than wrist in a neutral position because you’ve pre shortened the muscle and put it out of the range of maximal cross bridges
Exactly right with RFD. I think i mentioned that somewhere short may limit that window for torque deployment for bigger riders.
Thanks for the comments btw. I'm no expert on biomechanics/biology.
So would shorter cranks be better as your legs would be closer to resting neutral position? I think of long cranks as having to do a deeper squat. I could squat way more weight if I didn't have to go down as far.
Alexander Hardy yeah, if you had unlimited time to generate force you can achieve the maximum force in a narrow range of Motion (like the top of a squat). But, because the pedal stroke is high velocity, a shorter range of motion reduces the time you have available to generate force (it takes time for your CNS to send the signals and activate all your motor units). Realistically though, I don’t know how much difference it makes between 165mm crank and 170. I think track riders tend to use shorter cranks and they achieve very high peak power output? However, they are very explosive athletes and do a lot of weight training so they would be very good at quickly generating high forces. It’s possible that as you decrease your explosive strength deficit (the difference between your maximum force to the max force you can generate in the time limits of a particular movement), shorter cranks would become more useful to you? If you have low RFD maybe you need a Lower cadence and longer pedal stroke? Sorry not very helpful there, just thinking out loud.
I went from 170mm cranks down to 165mm in an effort to improve pedal stroke smoothness when in the aero tuck position. Now I know why it works!
Floydie I did the same! I even feel more confortable breathing while riding on the drops.
I also went from 170 to 165 at 5’8”. It made a world of difference, The typical crank lengths are wrong.
When I was racing off road in the 90s, everyone was using 175+mm cranks, but being under 5.5 ft tall with short legs, I found 175 cranks just too long. I switched to 170s and never looked back.
I would love to see how an oval chainring plays into this equation and also the other interest would be how cadence speed would it should change to create the same output. Great clip.
Earlier this year, after watching this video, I went and changed the crackset on the cheap on one of my bikes from 172.5 to 165 mm (for about $40). I tried this out for a few weeks and it felt less fatiguing overall and enabled pedaling at about 10 rpm faster.
It also alleviated saddle discomfort for me, especially at higher cadences.
Hey I'm now considering the 165 for that exact reason.. may I ask how tall you are?!
@@willappleton I'm 5'10" w/ 32' inseam and my shins are longer than my tibias, 17' vs 15'. Sorry for the late reply.
Watched this video and would like to comment on your CAD model/dynamic simulation. In that model the angle between your ankle and lower leg is held constant, which you do mention at approximately 12:25. For your CAD model what you should do is constrain the angle of the foot to the ground, not to the lower leg. If you watch riders from a side view you will see that through a full pedal rotation, the foot is held at 20-30 degrees to the road surface. This varies throughout the stroke, and if you could model this correctly in your CAD skeleton, you would see different results in hip angle especially at the top of the stroke (330°-60°). See if you can find videos of experienced cyclists on trainers from a side view and you will see what I mean.
I switched from 172.5 to 165 cranks a few years back for the reasons you so ably have shown in your presentation. Your presentation is the best I have encountered so far on this topic and validates my decision to switch to shorter cranks. Good to know that moving seat forward also helps to open hip angle. Maybe you could have a look at oval chainrings too, another controversial topic. Cheers
Thanks Norman. There are lots of assumptions and its a simplified model. Mixing engineering and biological/chemcia/neurologicall functions will never truly align.
The analysis of the bottom of the pedal stroke affirms what I've wondered. After making all other adjustments to seat position, my hunch was shorter cranks would make my hips happier by smoothing my extension. Data says yes. Thanks so much for this in depth explanation.
Glad it helped!
16:33 Did you account for the lower cadence longer cranks would permit at the same power output? The primary advantage of a longer crank is the ability to apply less force to achieve the same moment.
Put another way:
In order to average 200W with 180mm cranks, I would have to apply an average force of 177N at 60 RPM
With 165mm cranks, I would either have to apply 193N or more likely increase my cadence to 65.5 RPM by selecting an easier gear.
How much would that increase in cadence reduce the difference femurral angular acceleration?
I commissioned a custom-built frame with 80° STA and paired it with a 152mm crank. It took a little getting used to, but found no downside other than it forced my seat a bit higher, which made the seat-to-grip height difference a bit worse. I also had to switch from using RPM to using "foot velocity" instead. Thought cornering would be worse, but instead it actually felt like I got more consistent at them. In my head, I thought my legs were doing more of a rapid "piston-like" movement, like stair climbing, and speculated that this kind of position would benefit my fitness on foot (running), which made me wonder if triathletes were going after the same thing. Made me question the whole idea of going for different positions to rest overused muscles was even wise, compared to just giving the most used muscles even more training.
Great video! I would like to add a few comments and thoughts though. With the shorter crank installed, the saddle should be raised at least the equivalent amount of difference. This would open up the hip and knee angle further. Additionally, the angles can be opened up with a more rearward cleat position. The other factor to consider, on a road bike, is depending how far the saddle is moved forward, this can result in pressure and discomfort in the hands, wrists, shoulders and neck and effect breathing.
There of course many other changes to be made, as a result of what I have listed above - "knock on effects"
Enjoying the videos, keep them coming!
Id like to see you do a force vs. Femur/Tibia angle at the pedals. That coupled with the crank length should give you the best idea of optimal crank length to run.
When you said inertia, my ears pricked up. I am only 6'2" but my legs are massive (and long). I have gone from 175 to 172.5 cranks and have my seat slammed forward. I feel I get a more integrated comfortable feel. The problem is when im at battle speed, im often at 105 - 110rpm for long periods. This has got to take a tole on my huge legs. Interestingly the only time Iv been able to finish with the chain gang at the end, after 40 minute averaging 27mph, I was running 170 cranks on a single speed with a bigish gear.
@Alien On a Bike lol poor thing. It's people like you who get sheltered all the way across France, being dragged along by decent sized men up front. Only kidding I'm just jealous 🤣
Don't forget the beer belly effect! For a lot of riders I see, reducing the hip angle means that the knees don't hit the gut LOL.
Thank you for this content man. This is exactly the thing I've been looking for. Keep it up!! Definitely looking forward to more analysis like this.
Looking at oval chainrings in conjunction with this analysis would also be quite interesting.
Looking forward to this as well
I have a question regarding the the change to crank arm length: Why did you not change the seat height by the same amount?
It is recommended to change the seat height by the same amount you change the crank length to reach the same effective seat height again. I see the value of isolating a variable in analysis, but in this case it does not seem correct to isolate this change when you will always change seat height at the same time. Further more so as in the next step you talked about the benefit of raising the saddle and setting it further forward. This would be the next logical step after reducing crank length anyway. Seeing bikefit as a system, where one parameter changes others at the same time, it seems to me, that it is not advisable to isolate changes for analysis.
This is a very interesting analysis thats is very well done, I understand the constant angle flection assumption as adding more DOF can drastically change the complexity of the analysis.
One thing I was thinking whist watching is that muscles have different force production profiles depending on the amount of flection at the joint (amount of stretch on the muscle), and although such impediments as hip impingement is a first priority, to maximise performance with a force analysis, consideration to each muscles force production profile is needed for an accurate depiction. I have an inkling that the ratio of force production between the glutes and quads at their respective angles would contribute towards a total picture.
Again great work, and thanks for the video.
Hi, thanks for the comment. You're completely correct I think. It just highlights how complicated an optimisation problem it is, there are sooo many variables.
it's neat to see the benefits of shorter crank lengths and I'd be interested to see how this could be adapted for MTB use where shorter cranks have inherent value anyways- fewer pedal strikes/lower BB for cornering aggressively. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if this is the next portion of geometry that gets pushed to the practical limit (like head angle, bar length, top tube length and stem length already have).
Enlightening! This is the best analysis of crank length found thus far.
Well present video, thank you. As a touring unicycle rider the subject of crank length is always interesting. Road unicycles always use much shorter cranks than bicycles, mostly as being fixed gear it gives the best compromise of torque and speed. Gearing can't be changed but crank length allows for at least a change of leverage for different riding conditions, styles and rider's strength/skill. I run 110 mm cranks on a 29" unicycle and 127 mm on a 36" unicycle, others go much shorter down to 89 mm. It makes hills harder but cruising far less taxing and even a little faster, perhaps because the angular velocity allows for an easier passing of the dead spot at the bottom on the crank stoke. The issue I find hard to compare is rider position. There are no "bike fits" for unicycle riders! The basic position is much more directly over the crank hub with little room to vary seat position fore or aft and a very open "hip angle". I believe it's still be same 4-bar linkage so perhaps the mechanics are the same as on a bicycle. Maybe you can comment on that? Again, thanks for interesting video.
I don't think short cranks make unicycling any easer/faster due to the dead spots, I think it's simply that you are limited more by cadence and how fast you can move your feet, than you are by the amount of force you can apply to the cranks.
to do 20km/h on a 29" unicycle you're going to need to do around 145rpm.
You don't need much more power to do it than you would on a bicycle. If you try and ride your bicycle at 20km/h with a 1:1 gear ratio and the same 145rpm, you would be happy to have tiny cranks there too.
Noice! Have you considered or already done the 5 linkage version, adding in the ankle-to-cleat link? The whole "cleat under ball of foot" rule of thumb has also been subjected to actually doing the science and thinking about it from a biomechanical POV, with cleats being closer to the midfoot showing some real benefits, such as increased foot stability and reduced calf loads/fatigue.
I went for 220mm cranks, from 200 originally then 215mm, reason being, for me they feel comfortable. Like having a nice stretch or walking with a longer stride. I do have a 39 inch inside leg length though.
they've found bones of your ancestors, according to late night History Channel
Amazing video!
Interesting point about the self selection on gearing, which is something that I’ve had in the back of my mind when considering shorter cranks. It would be nice to know how much of an effect the shorter crank length has on the overall leverage provided, perhaps as a percentage. This could be of interest because it could inform whether or not different chain rings or cassettes, should also be considered, when going to a shorter crank length. I think most people are over geared as it is, but that’s a separate discussion. Thank you for diving so deep into this!
I suspect: What the acceleration peak allows is for you to drop the toe a bit through ankle flex. The toe drop absorbs the acceleration which works perfectly to begin the pull up cycle. If so, that could be an advantage.
5' 7" (30" inseam) and I find 170mm cranks too long. I've been experimenting with shorter kids bike cranks, 152mm to 130mm, and find that 1mm ends up equaling about 1RPM of perceived cadence. (85RPM @170mm feels like 103RPM @152mm)
The cadence where I can hold my FTP at the lowest heart rate is about 95RPM. That seems to line up with the dynamic model that I should probably use 160mm cranks. Too bad they're such a PIA to find.
Very interesting experiments. Good to see someone trying the extremes. Cheers
@@PeakTorque I managed to get some 160mm 105 Cranks. Instantly increased my average cadence by 8 rpm. Power is down a little because I'm not conditioned to the faster cadence. (Fast twitch fibers in the quads are on fire). Way more comfort, and simpler to find a good fit.
Thanks,I shall follow with interest. Another aspect: what if you have different leg length's and/or variances in tibea/ femur? E.G: my right femur is 22 mm longer than left,while the right tibea is shorter. Overall my right leg is 37mm shorter. To complicate matters my right ankle has a fusion and alignment issues,making for complicated bio-mechanics.
Do you think 165mm cranks are too short on my tt bike as a 187cm rider
I'm 5'6 / 165cm with 29" inseam. I modified by machining two new positions on Shimano arms from 172.5 to 155mm. I also lifted my seat by about 15mm.
The difference was compelling. For me, MUCH smoother and I stopped rocking on my seat. My Zwift output appears to have gained 5-10w at same heart rate.
Too many geometry factors here for me to consider (or understand). My 'seat of the pants' mods tell me I'm OK with the new geometry.
By surveying some decent bike fitters… that fore aft seat position should not be used to open hip angle because moving seat forward means your torso can become unbalanced as it is more cantilevered over the bars.. this results in saddle sores and numb hands.. therefor fore aft position should be driven by balancing upper body weight.. I’ve experimented with this (and reach.. discovered that handlebar width increases reach!) and my numb hands and saddle sores are GONE!!
Much better to use crank length since it doesn’t throw off everything else.
#PeakedTorque Did you account for the additional hip opening from a shorter crank because of having to lower the saddle because the foot will be higher at the bottom of the stroke?
Great analysis. I think the main problem is that road bikes are still way too conservative on their geometry. Crank length is one point - but the much larger problem is that road bikes seem archaic when it comes to findings on what is faster on mountainbikes, think Mondraker Forward Geometry or Pole bikes - mow more or less implemented in all bikes. Ideally we want much steeper seat tubes - maybe 76-77°, maybe even 78° as on Pole bikes (though then the more you use your bike for climbing - the steeper you like your seat angle), longer reach but shorter stems, and much slacker head angles (and yeah wheel base will rocket from the paltry 99cm to 110-115cm or so - notice enduro mountainbikes have arrived at 130cm already for a size large). The main problem is the handlebar width - going 10-20cm wider would likely be really beneficial fore most going uphill, but really inefficient in the wind. This would resolve a lot of too much weight on hands/shoulders problems. Someone really needs to think forward, forget UCI norms, and look at things that made mountainbikes fast. Then get people to train on a new geometry for some months and compare speed and comfort. Some things from the mountainbike side may not work on roadbikes (for sure no 75-80cm wide handlebars) but a lot will. To counter the slacker head angle and weight distribution - the chainstay length will need to grow too - however road bikes likely need much less weight on the front wheel vs mountainbikes - so shorter CS = less weight on your arms = more comfortable. And yeah if crankarms reduce in size, the long needed evolution of chainring sizes going smaller needs to continue too. Average Joes tend to run way too big rings up front instead of spinning faster and trying to choose a small ring that allows them never to drop below 80RPM on their steepest common climbs.
It's crazy how conservate and stupid a lot of the bikefitting is on roadbikes - trying to fit people onto frame geometries that are simply wrong from the start. And yeah it needs a radical departure from the status quo. Most of bike fitting is simply an reaction to wrong bike geometries.
Agree, frame geometry needs to be looked at, seat tube angles are far too relaxed. I've always thought we should be far more over the BB in order to sync the lower body. I always slam my seat as fwd as I can and never have pain
@PeakTorque Could You make a follow-up for this video, regarding how one should choose crank lenght?
I'm 189 cm with 91 cm inseam (long limbs, shorter torso). I have both 172,5 mm and 175 mm, i "feel" that I can produce power more easily with shorter ones (even with such minor difference...).
This was hilarious AND informative. I wish I could like this twice! Please do more of these Myth-debunking analysis videos for other topics too!
But wouldnt this imply 17:00 and ongoing that if you want high acceleration such as a sprinter you have an advantage with larger cranks?
Meaning you can control your smooth efforts till the sprint and then u can crank out more force more accelerations with less pedal strokes. And if your a climber or flat racing guy you want smaller cranks to smooth ur effort and keep good endurance?
You could model the next video on a selection of frames in one series. Then mark out the heatmap of where the effective seatpost could even be, given the extension of the fore-aft, and similar for reach given available stems, and the same for crank length. What does that look like with a different colour for each frame, if all frames are stationary at the BB?
Not only do some bike models have the same geo across their range, they also sport the same seat, stem, cranks, and gears (and hopefully BB height for the comparison). That seems wanting.
Great video, very informative and I love the use of engineering to debunk cycling myths.
Did you ever make the follow up video about force? I couldn't see it
Excellent analysis! Thank you also for the very clear presentation.
I'm 69 years old, 180 cm tall. I have 2.5 cm longer legs and shorter torso than average for a male of my height. Usually ridden 172.5 mm as that's what the bikes came with. But my Specialized Steel Langster had shorter cranks (165mm?) and I absolutely loved it, rode it very hard up and down hills in traffic and in rural areas. I had a chance to get shorter cranks when my 2018 Ultegra cranks were recalled and replaced last year... but I forgot! Now about £250 to get shorter cranks and that is a long way my pension budget list of desirable items
This relates to the Steve Hogg bike fit method. He looks for a constant velocity at the knee and tries to limit high accelerations. Would be interested to see the plot with a seat height 10-15mm lower.
Very interesting. I need to read about that, I've never heard of him. It certainly makes sense.
This was a very useful exercise - it would be great if you did a follow up or two
I'm particularly interested to see a comparison with Greg Lemond's method of setting saddle height from the BB
Wonderful video. I have been considering shorter cranks because of intuition only, now I am starting to understand due to your excellent work
Thank you so much , please what is the name of programme that you used ?
The first online evidence based biomechanical analysis I met online. Cheers dude. Great job. The tool seems really interesting.
I'm 186cm but prefer 170mm cranks to 175mm due to bad knee (yeah, most people say I should use 172.5 - 175mm). Never thought about angles, but a friend recommended that I try shorter cranks to see if it helps with knee pain. I was sceptical at first, because in my simple mind, shorter crank means more torque and worse pain... But it worked!
Your video explains a lot why it is so. I might experiment with saddle position as well.
Thanks!
How does ST angle or more importantly , starting with correct seat angle for geometry of frame and saddle set back and height effect correct crank length , here ?
Superb. V interesting. Nice CAD idea, first thing I thought was surely it is a 5 bar linkage system ( to include foot link and ankle pivot) and glad you pointed this out at 12.22 that you assumed ankle flexion is constant and I think this is the biggest flaw in this model; would have been interesting to see the numbers where the foot is kept horizontal and ankle flexion allowed - think it would reduce the minimum hip angle differences. Also note how you have the ball of foot pivot is not perpendicularly below knee pivot at the 3 o' clock position of the stroke, as bike fitters often recommend. I will try your CAD idea however - think it is great. Would love to have seen the follow up about Forces investigation but couldn't find. My experience with shorter cranks were worse - you needed to go one bigger rear cog and therefore increase rpm to match the longer crank.
really interesting - also worth considering the positional change associated with shorter cranks, what i mean is; shorter cranks would mean saddle can go higher maintaining the same leg extension angles on the bottom of the pedal stroke - at 6 o'clock, and consequently compounded effect on hip angle of increase saddle high and shorter cranks as explained ?
yours video is still the best today , real data always stands time
I am retired and have ridden for over 50 years on the road. I still get 50 to 70 miles a week most of the year. But I am old school and know little about the reasons for crank length change. Old school
was you don't want your knee in front of the axle when your peddle is at the 3 o'clock position. But I can see the advantage of moving the seat forward and up. When you get you knee in front do you loose any watts in your out put power? I would think as you move forward you affectedly in-gauge the peddle stroke a bit latter. Thanks for the video. I need all I can get ,it's tought keeping up with the young. LOL Rick D.
As short guy (170 cm) with a short inseam (77 cm) should I go for 160 mm cranks?
I had always wondered the effect of crank length for my neck! I'm fairly flexible but my neck has issues and wondered it crank length would help. And I'm a bit cheap on getting a proper bike fit.
Changing the crank length for neck issues is wishful thinking and expensive. First assuming that we're talking about road bikes if you have a visor on your helmet - remove it. Now. Visors are fine for mountain biking and such where you have a more upright posture but not for a road bike. After that I'd look into handlebar position. Usually this means that you want your handlebars to be moved higher and/or back.
How is your neck doing? I used to have more frequent neck aches than today. I find swimming really helps a lot to make it limber and any cycling helps the back overall if done for enough time.
@James Medina unfortunately I don't get on the bike as much as needed to properly adjust. The neck has gotten better as I adjust my fit. I've found that a zero setback sestpost and shorter stem are pretty much a must.
@@markmarlatt1105 give things time. You could get more limber or tighter, but one things for sure : you could probably ride more👍
Ive got a shorter fenur to tibia to mist oeople which had ne trying shorter cranks but in the end i went to a longer crank. I positioned my saddle forward and raised my bars 10mm and my saddle 5mm. I have a linger longer extension but leverage has increased from 12 to 4 oclock. I find my out if saddle power is greater.
Does a sore hip indicate hip angle issues?
I have some sort of nerve problem possibly affecting the muscles in my right foot. It needs an orthotic for support.
My ankles are the only hypermobile joint. The right hip is bothered for some reason, too.
What would happen with a 73° seatpost ? I would go to 165 from 175. My femurs are 52cm long. I'm 189cm tall.
Any thoughts?
I went from racing cat 4 and 10000km/year to lots of intermittent pain this year.
+1 for the constraint based sketches! +1 for the consideration of acceleration! I’m cringing while thinking about my femur crashing into my tibia after the pedal upstroke. Perhaps the reduced acceleration profiles associated with shorter cranks could simply reduce knee strain?
Easily the best explanation of crank length and hip angles I've ever seen. I'm gonna try these adjustments and comment in how I feel. Thanks man!
Cheers
Do you know if 'effective seat tube angle more important than crank length' is still true to the same degree on say a S(52cm) frame rather than L/XL(~58cm)? - In my mind it would be less impactful the smaller the frame, right?
very nice! have you looked at the premature wear of the tibia's meniscus wear and displacement of forces with different seat/seat angle/ fore-aft positioning?
Excellent video. Love hearing the workings of someone who knows his stuff. Had a quick look through the title of previous videos to see if there's interesting stuff there. Saw the name Hambini so instantly subscribed.
I’ve been using 145mm and 150mm cranks for 15 years. I measured power versus speed for several lengths before switching.
@PeakTorque what crank length are you running on your road bikes now?
So longer crank means more torque, we can agree on that - it's physics. 4:53 shows "They do not increase power". Just because there's "no data, no proof", why would we conclude that? Maybe it's that I'm not looking at this from an aero TT perspective, but when you climb a long steep ascent, and you are running out of gears, don't tell me that an extra torque wouldn't help...
I'm 6'4" with extra long legs (opposite ape index than people like Michael Phelps, so my wingspan is 4" shorter than my height, my torso is not XL just L, my legs are XXL long). I have trouble finding long enough crank arms and it just bogs my mind how can people even gravitate towards shorter... maybe it works for short people I guess?
Crank length is just part of the whole gear system that is:
1. Front chain wheel number of teeth
2. Rear cog number of teeth
3. Crank length
4. Rear wheel outer diameter of the tyre.
Increasing crank length can help you in your bottom gear because you're changing the total gear ratio. Max torque thus power comes from the human. You can't magic it from nowhere!
@@PeakTorque For sure. I understand that the main focus of your current analysis was fit. I cannot wait to see power analysis.
If we wouldn't focus on fit, then it'd be an interesting question what would be the power outcome once you have a given cog set and platters and your wheel size is given as well, only variable would be the crank length. Referring to the "They do not increase power" claim. I understand though that in the end the power comes from the human, and if someone has short legs, they won't be able to ergonomically apply the power to a long crank.
Really interesting. I'm trying to square it all with the fact that I just perform better on longer cranks (180mm). Anecdotal - I've got a better jump, I don't need to get out of the saddle coming out of tight corners, under effort I think more about muscle recruitment and ankle flexion, I'm thinking round the pedal stroke, ....and I really like the wider range of motion under light load for recovery. I'm going to try the CAD modelling, there might be something else going on if you remove the foot/tibia approximation and make it a 5 bar linkage. I think the ankle acts as a fluid coupling and damps that peak acceleration. Like you say, hip ROM is a red herring, there's lots of other stuff you can do to solve that.
Any info on standing ( unseated) sprint and crank length?
How do Cyclists' hip angles compare (depending on condition) to Track & Field Sprinters???.... ie, can the Optimal peak power range of motion (excursion of max efficiency) help determine the best hip angles & thereby the crank length?
This a very interesting presentation. Have you considered expanding your analysis to include consideration of how changing the angular sweep of the thigh effects the ability of the associated muscles to output power? The analysis seems to assume that the leg muscles will be able to cope with all the resulting angular sweeps equally well.
That would be really interesting to do. Im trying to formulate some inverse kinematic model to deal with this but would also need some electro-gram medical grade equipment!
@@PeakTorque would be most beneficial to this analysis, I;m sure
Great video. I just measured that my old bike has 70.0deg seat tube angle and probably this is why I feel so stretched and uncomfy on it.
That is very slack!
I went just recently over to 165mm cracks from 175mm cranks that I have used pretty much all my grown life. Well in the first two weeks if felt like the smaller circle you are pedaling in was so restrictive that I was about to change back. You got no power, and it feels like you are on a those tricycles if you remember those from your early childhood. But I noticed that I never ever had any pains or similar issues in the knees and the like, and even though I still am lacking in power it seems I am adapting to this as well. Oh yeah, I am 172 or 5,6 or 5,7 or something like that.
You can add shims to match the length of one leg to the other under your clip shoes.
Isn’t there a knock-on problem or potential issue with moving the seat forward of changing the center of gravity and overloading the quads, as well as putting to much weight on the hands (potentially creating wrist or hand pain, and even neck pain)?
Great video and discussion thx.
When you say you raised the saddle with the shorter cranks in Case 1, how much did you raise it and why? Are your normalizing for 'feel,' hip angle at the bottom of the stroke, or leg extension? If you were doing a similar kinematic analysis on a mechanical system, you wouldn't "raise the saddle." It's only when I started fitting using digital motion capture tools a decade ago that I realized the futility of this. I had spent the previous 20 years of my bike fitting career fixated (as many fitters are) on 'optimizing' leg extension for the pedal at the bottom of the stroke. There's not much power being generated there. Takes a bit of work but we can now test for different FTPs at different saddle heights, and most of the research finds that within a ~2cm band, power output doesn't change much (just as it doesn't change much for crank length). Raising the saddle also erases the significant aerodynamic advantage you'd get from the shorter crank (and resultant ability to lower the upper body while maintaining hip angle constant).
It is quite an expensive part to get wrong so I wondered if bime fitters could have adjustable cranks to fit to the client’s bike, rider doesna few test rides in different conditions and steepness of terrain and gets a feel for it, and perhaps power readings? How hard would that be to do?
for the accerelation and speed study, did you use a constant bicycle speed or constant crank rotational speed, meaning usually with a shorter crank, omega would go up
Shouldn't you correct the seat height when you change the crank length? (at 10:03 in the video)
I did in the dynamic analysis part
Great video. Another step to trying shorter cranks. Now 175mm for 170 cm rider.
Amazing sound quality as well. Good sound quality not essential but adds to the authoritative impression!
Interesting. Never thought about it in terms of degrees/s of the femur.
I have 175's and am considering 170's for less hip angle. But at age 60, I am more concerned about how raising the seat will then impact saddle to stem height and the changes I may have to make to the front end.
One thing leads to another...... 😁😁
in my experience, it is all a matrix of bike geometry, body and adaption, and cycling environment ( eg. hilly, flats, urban, short circuits vs. endurance) - in other words, numbers (175, 170) are meaningless.
Shorter is easier on the body. ‘MOre comfy
I know this vid is two years old... But on the subject of smooth or stochastic power requirements, would that have a very different response for climbing and for travelling at speed on the flat. When travelling at speed you are doing short spikes of power to keep the inertia high of the whole system. While when climbing you put power out though much more of the stroke. It's one of the big muscle differences between climbers and time trialists slash sprinters. How then would shorter cranks effect climber and fast finishers differently???
With regards to increasing the seat tube angle, the more forward your saddle is the more weight you offset towards the hoods (if we’re talking about the road bike position), there is still a limitation to this, so keep note everyone, sometimes a little bit of both reduction of crank length and proper saddle fore aft is key.
Really enjoyed this, cracking explanation. Solidly de-mistifying bike fitting. Subscribed!
could you run where power produced is constant, meaning as the the crank decreases in size, pedal speed will go up. accelerations may become the same
Hi, PeTo. I have gone from 172.5 to 165 cranks. With a smaller radius, theoretically, less time to complete a full round stroke, so maybe it’s a small handful of extra RPM benefit to the rider. But, the lever is shorter compared to a longer crank for the same gear combo, so theoretically, a few more watts and O2 needed to maintain the speed.
Does the industry of bike making or bike fitment, have a model, to assess crank length? Is there a model to project how many rpm gain / lost or change of watts, when changing crank length? Is this even a valid construct, is it usefully consumable?
Anecdotally, with 165, I have felt to click up one gear, e.g. 19T to 17T, and I think the ‘ol engine is working a bit harder. Could also be the extra bear fat accrued from covid hibernation.....I feel the stroke has smoothed out, where as on 172.5, the feet are thrown farther NSEW as they transit a larger diameter, and the stroke develops a lope in response. Cheers from the San Francisco Bay Area.