How do you get rid of someone who can't leave you alone..like 5yrs..this person keeps trying to contact me. I just keep blocking whenever I add a new app..it's entitled (sick abuser mentality). Also thank you for this Dr.K, I still deal with a toxic narc family so this is REALLY key. I am an older viewer so I do hope those in their teens, 20's and 30's listen to the key stuff you have given..it will benefit them immensely. 🙏
@@DiamondEyez456 I have experience with this. I had a boyfriend for 1 month. Amongst many issues, he was an alcoholic, a womanizer, and a professional liar. But it took me more than 5 years to make sense of all of it. He menaced me with jumping off a window, three times and then he hanged up the phone and didn't pick it up for hours. He followed me and my friends for 9 years. Messages and emails many times a year. I never decided to do anything in particular (like calling he cops), becouse I believed him wanting to take his life. I never went back with him or anything, but I let the "friendship" (I answered some of the emails, sometimes the phone) last many years out of fear. I don't think he would have taken his life. He was just manipulating me in a dangerous and cruel way. My friends learned to laugh about this situations, maybe as a way to support me, because I got super sad when they told me he was at the same bar as them and he was stalking them the whole night. Finally I started to find it funny too. He was inlove with the idea of love in HIS life. Not about sharing something special. He is the heroe of his own movie in his mind. He turned me into a price to win. He was excited about the chace, the hunt. Once social media became a thing big time, it was out in the open the image he had of himself. Once I saw him without listening to him, I understood. I don't expect you to have a similiar experience as me, but maybe the differences will help you in your journey 💜 I wish you the best of lucks, and a clear mind 🙌
Not necessarily. If you don't have power to enforce them, you can still mentally hold onto them. I had an abusive alcoholic stepfather and my boundary was, "no man is ever going to hit me again." I couldn't enforce that boundary with him, but years later, when a boyfriend snatched my arm, I broke up with him. Later I found out that he had physically abused all of his previous gfs. Instead of that kind of behavior being normalized, I clung to that boundary and prevented myself from accepting that kind of behavior when I had the power to escape it.
This is so untrue, and a misunderstanding of what a boundary actually is. It is meant for you yourself to reinforce where you draw the line for what you are willing to do. It is not meant for you to enforce on others. You cannot control what other people do, you can only control how you react. Boundaries are about identifying healthy and productive ways to react to others in a way that you can communicate.
@terminaldeity a boundary could limit wht you will do, but I would argue that its also about what behaviour you will accept in regards to their treatment of you. We have a right to enforce certain treatment like" if a partner hits me, its over" or "im not going spend my time with people that claim to be my friends, but regularly exclude me and I fond our after the fact"
This is a technique I used for years to deescalate family arguments. My parents and sibling have a tendency to be overcome by anger and just escalate an argument no matter what I say or do, so I learned to shut down or remove myself from the situation entirely as my only way to shut down the fight. Unfortunately, after years of that habit working for me, it's now a defense mechanism that I am working to stop doing in my healthy relationships, because shutting down and running away is not a solution to an argument or disagreement that requires healthy communication. I'm sorry to anyone else watching this video that has to use this defense mechanism for survival :(
I feel you. Coming from an incredibly argumentative household that could never hold a proper discussion without breaking into shouting and button-pressing, I've finally gotten myself a healthy connection with my girlfriend. She comes from what I perceive as a perfect and completely unreal household, so she has a hard time understanding my feelings sometimes, since I never make any requests and I just immediately agree to many things before thinking about my own well-being.
Same here. The worst is when they think your silent response to their anger means they said something right to anger you into silence. And continue hammering and then rope/spread to other family members / friends that you're in the wrong to perpetuate the behavior. I'm glad you're around some people who value healthy, 2-way communication. It definitely gets a lot better with therapy specialized in trauma.
My ex-father is a quick temper anger, while my ex-mother is a quiet simmer anger. So much passive aggression too, sarcasm, negging (father would tell me "I'm a pretty good mechanic and driver for someone with a uterus, I'm surprised you got that driving job you're a terrible driver when I'm you're passenger!" 🙃 gee, I wonder why.. 🤔
I stopped talking altogether for 5 years because of my verbally abusive father. Only years later did I realize that all his problems where not my fault.
I wish my husband could have heard this ten years ago. His narcissistic father was also his boss and also his landlord. It was brutally gaslighting manipulation and guilt tripping all day every day. Only when his father started treating me that way, too, he started to see what's happening and we moved away, far away. I still remember how confused he was with how his new boss treated him, all friendly, and how weirdly relaxing it could be to live in a home that isn't barged in at random times by an abusive asshole in the middle of the night.
Your husband's father sounds like a cartoon villain lol. Abusive dad, shitty landlord and power-tripping boss all rolled into one. I'm glad you guys were able to break away from his abuse💙
You're on to something here. People keep telling me to stand in my power with my narcissistic parents. I keep telling them it doesn't work that way with narcissists.
The goal of boundaries isn't for them... it's a boundary to protect you. How can you protect yourself? I think that's what Dr. K. Is saying here. Dealing with narcissists are scary abuse you cannot tell what they will do next and you also cant tell if they will become physical. So first and foremost, protect yourself.
Just have multiple defences. Emotional defence andPhysicall defence and others. Learn also how to counter their attack. Do not be on defence all the time, they will break your defence. Learn also how to dodge their attack.
@@LTNyota exactly- if you defend yourself or criticise them they double down on the abuse. A advise all children of narcissists to leave home as soon as you get a job (do university later not straight after school)
I learned this "roll over and blame yourself" strategy at a very early age do to an abusive household. Taking the fault, saying im the problem, and letting people "win" to avoid conflict... But as I grew into my teenage and adult years, this became a toxic trait of mine and I started to put down on myself and view myself as the problem. I said it so much that i believed myself to be the problem since other people didnt seem to have an issue with my "bullies" and family. I would even stop being competitive in video games when there was conflict. Now i struggle viewing fault when im in conflict with other because im quick to blame myself for the issues... So I have to remind myself what is fair with others should be fair to me lol... It's crippling on the self confidence.
I went through this…I got a tattoo saying I am enough and I’m constantly reinforcing positive self talk with affirmations and subliminals. I think it’s working. God Bless you on your journey 🙏🏼
@marylee7036 I'm pretty bad at positive self talk, but im working on it lol. Glad to hear someone is making it work for them. Hope haha. Stay strong and thank you for the positive reinforcement 🙏🏻.
I think this is like setting emotional boundaries within yourself. You don't tell them your boundaries, you don't try to get them to change. You don't offer them your emotional vulnerability or intimacy. You can't be that authentic with abusive behavior. Using these techniques will not result in a close living relationship, that requires vulnerability and authenticity, but abusive people are not healthy enough for you to be close too anyways. It's about giving up on the hope of having a close relationship with them and just trying to protect yourself from them.
How are you supposed.to.know if someone is or not if you've never set boundaries in the first place whats normal or healthy I couldn't tell the forest from the trees
@@psychodelic1457 I would highly recommend a good psychologist who specializes in trauma and works with Dialectical Behavioral Therapy (DBT), Acceptance Commitment Therapy (ACT), and possibly also does EMDR added onto one or both of those. Honestly, I just had to switch therapists and I did it through Zondermind, and I was amazed. I was easily able to find someone who did those therapies and was well-versed in ADHD and Autism. Companies like this really help to cut down on the process of finding one through calling individual offices and I get to do my therapy online as I had been doing. These therapies teach you coping skills and give you tools to process and work through things. There are three types of brain thinking or decisions making one is the Emotional mind where you are completely in your emotional brain, and can make very poor decisions because you are not considering any facts. There is the total logical brain/thinking and in this brain, you don't take any feelings into consideration and can make poor decisions not taking into mind your emotions or those of others. This can be very hurtful. Then there is the wise mind and this is a balanced thought process where you make healthy choices and decisions. These therapies teach you how to live in your wise mind, where you will recognize controlling, manipulative behavior, and know how to handle that person. These therapies will also help you to start a practice of mindfulness/meditation that has so many benefits. This isn't about just talking to a counselor about your feelings (emotional mind) but actually working to learn better coping skills. Now, you may not be in a spot to be able to do this, but I would recommend looking up channels that teach you how to recognize narcissistic behavior and people. You can also do a lot of deep diving into DBT or ACT and do the mindfulness on your own and kind of educate yourself on what it is about. I know in the Autism community a lot of people don't have access to therapy, and will research into it and do as much as they can on their own till they can get to a point where they can work with a therapist. Also, I find that abusive parents and abusive husbands will pay for all the therapy you want if you tell them it is to "FIX" your broken *ss. Learn to work this technique he talking about, but first learn here on UA-cam how to recognize who is who. Hint: If you always walk away feeling like you can't do anything right, and you are a complete failure from someone in your inner circle. It isn't you honey, it is them! They are doing this to you to get what they want. They are manipulating you. Sorry, my autistic brain loves to share what I have deep-dived into, and these therapies have totally helped me. I don't think I will ever stop going to therapy and learning more coping skills and keeping up with the coping skills I have learned.
then again, being a child to narcissists makes you weak, and its ok. its good to admit to oneself. "I'm weak. they didn't do the job, and this is the result." and have empathy and tolerance for oneself.
@@kathrine266 … No, actually. People who are children to narcissists aren’t inherently weak. Weakness and strength are concepts of domination, conjured by someone needing to feel superior, none of which aligns with reality … the only way to win that game is to fall out of the binary entirely. Did you watch the video? The willful act of calling yourself weak is not actual weakness. What I’m pointing out here is that there is a danger to this strategy outlined in the video: The danger then becomes negative self talk and codependency. If you believe yourself weak you’ve clearly gotten it twisted and might start falling for the narcissist’s game again. In that case the need to escape the relationship becomes more urgent. I’m sorry, but your comment comes across as someone who hasn’t had to deal with this IRL. There’s no “self-loving” your personal weakness while in a narcissistic mind game fighting for your psychological survival. Remember that weakness in this situation is ONLY in relation to the selfish desires of the other person. The victim in question could indeed be weak in the societal sense but are more likely not. If you are indeed weak, not just weak in the opinion of the narcissist (who is trying to foist their worldview into you) but objectively, forgiving yourself for being a weak person is something you do when you’re fully away from them and out of the situation. Empathy and tolerance for oneself can only be attained once a certain level of psychological safety is ensured.
That's exactly what happened to me. Did this for years and now if ever I feel any kind of need, I find it hard to express it without justifying and apologising for it. An if it gets denied, that's totally okay, because how silly of me to ask in the first place. It's ridiculous.
Right? Now that i look back, I recall times when I had done, (or earned), something that i was really proud of, but was immediately made to feel guilty or ashamed, because i was not willing to just hand it over to the golden child, when demanded. It really pulls the rug out from under your feet.
The problem is abusive relationships don't ever get any better. You're not going to out-manipulate someone who spent their life learning how to manipulate people.
Not true, really. Watch Dr K on red flags and also I am an example of it too, manipulative people can and often are good folks but have badly stuck thinking and behavioral patterns. It's often possible to work it out together which will toughen the relationship. Of course, some abuse isn't worth it and in some cases it's just safer to walk off soon.
Boundries are not manipulations. They are actions you take when people refuse to respect you. Not violence, not threats but changing your behavior or distancing.
@RippleDrop. I was in an abusive relationship and I don't appreciate people telling me that if I had worded my complaints differently my ex would have respected my boundaries.
Wow, I'm 70 now and all my life I've had narcissistic & manipulative people, parents and people at work. I've always given them oxygen to bully me. I've finally got it. Thank you. Your explanation was so clear and informative. I recently went back to work and have a bully that loves to manipulate me. And I think I can get through the day with a clear mind and not be overwhelmed by them.
As I understand it, a boundary is not a request of another person. It's an "if, then" statement where the "then" is in one's own control. It's not, "Don't call me names." A boundary is more like, "If you call me names, I will leave immediately and not talk with you for 24 hours." And yes, it's quite difficult to do when you're a kid. But you don't have to tell the other person your boundary. You can say to yourself, "If you call me names, I will not engage."
@@debbiewilder4738because as an adult you can leave the situation. You don't have to sit there and take it. Boundaries are a gift you give to someone. If they refuse the gift, that person didn't give a fuck about you and so you should move on with your life. You're not going to change people, you need to know your limits so you don't stay in abusive situations.
If this is the new definition of “boundary,” then it isn’t a boundary, it’s just an emotional regulation technique. To most people, boundaries set bounds. This is why a border is called a boundary. And to address this whole “control” word, let’s be more specific. An effective boundary necessarily influences other people’s behavior. Some of the most effective and common relationship boundaries revolve around what constitutes cheating, which more often than not influences one or both partners’ behavior, simply out of mutual respect.
The power in setting a boundary at work is that you can quit. Believe me, the trauma of abusive bosses lasts way longer if you don't get out of that situation.
@@nancybartley4610 as many times as you deem necessary. You have very limited time to live and experience the life you want to. Shit behavior, in any form, isn't to be tolerated. And in my experience, when it is tolerated it negatively impacts performance. I don't believe in working in miserable places, mind you, but If I can't work in an efficient environment I'm wasting my time. As over the top as this may sound, every job is a stepping stone to something better. That's been my thought process and it has turned out a reasonably good resume over the years. I find VERY little finding work, but I can admit to you that I'm still not doing exactly what I want to. I'm just taking each step, altering course as necessary for each new hurdle and challenge on the way to doing what I want to. (I'm sorry if this is dragging.) Literally as many times as you seem necessary to get where you need to be.
Refusing to engage in a power struggle IS a way of having healthy boundaries. There are many ways of having boundaries that do not involve overt confrontation.
Yeah, I feel like he has a weird definition of what setting boundaries is. He even at one point says "if you hold the boundary but you don't blame them for it..." so he both acknowledged this is a boundary and also says it isn't?
@@GhostGlitch.It's kind of both. I think what he is saying is that it is a boundary but it's not an obvious boundary that the other person will understand to the point that they feel the need to cross it. It's like an invisible wall that is there, but the other person can't see it.
I think one of the biggest flaws with modern therapy is the inability to effectively identify and provide strategies to deal with interpersonal power dynamics. I'm glad to see HealthyGamer taking steps to resolve that
YES! It is a huge flaw! We go and do everything right but it fails because we aren’t given adequate tools and we feel like failures and blame ourselves 😢 It makes things worse
Hi, a retired psychotherapist here. I like what you're saying about Don't Feed the Narcissist. And Yes. Boundaries are useless in that situation. I also think there are alot of kids out there who survived their Narcissistic parent by making themselves smaller / weaker to the point of invisibility. Even to themselves. It's the line of least resistance. These kids don't have a strong positive sense of Self. By speaking words "I am weak, I'm sorry", while possibly a good immediate strategy for kids who with a strong enough ego, might dig the wounding deeper for a kid who says those words and believes them to be true about themselves. I don't think that was your intention at all and it's still a good intervention...especially for teens and above. I guess, I just missed you prefacing this strategy first by reinforcing the child's (or person's) inherent strength of Self. Even if it's been hidden from their sight by an overbearing parent. Even if the child can't see their own strength themselves... Then explaining the passive strategy as a move of Strength. The second concern I'd like to bring up is the tendency for some kids, who use passive resistance for years, to grow into passive aggressive adults. Would love to know your thoughts on this.
Somewhere on 6th minute I remembered as adults told me to "just ignore bullies, do they'll get bored and leave you alone". And this still makes me absolutely mad. I remember myself in my elementary school screaming to my one mom: "What do you mean by 'irgore'? There is a full gang of boys bigger than me beating me! It's painful! Do you want me to not cry when I feel pain? Why don't you try to help me to get out of here?!". And my mom rolled her eyes and said: "It is all about setting up proper boundaries. You should learn to do it all right, overwise it will be all the same in any school and everywhere you go". And that was total bullshit! Not all the guys get in gangs and beat girls and minors because they are physically weaker. Thanks god I haven't seen any man irl doing so since I moved out of our district. That was absolutely sick how normalized hate and agression were there. Now as adult I meet so many people, who grew up in better conditions, and their childhood stories sound almost too good to be true. And that's something I want to provide for my children, too. P.S. Sorry for the long text, I needed to handle my emotions somehow.
To put it straight: if you found yourselves living in a 'charming' place, where people are beaten, robbed and raped on the streets - that's not a 'god-given opportunity for you and your children to become stronger'. You can learn to get along with these people (I did at the end), but this is a bad skill to learn. Just get out of there asap. These are your proper physical boundaries.
I feel this. My father would tell me to stand up to theme even though I know it would just escalate the situation in getting bullied more. It is not helpful.
@@kibowolf1153 that's when it becomes the biggest problem. That's what I'm working on right now. What to do when my boundaries are being violated but I can't walk away.
That's exactly what he said at the beginning of the video. Boundaries are used to signal when you should walk away, but that only works when you have the power and capability to be able to walk away and still be fine independently. A child can't walk away from a parent, legally, and for survival reasons if they cross a line. A person who's been in a relationship for 5 years and has been worked in to a situation where their partner's income, who is 75% higher than theirs, determines whether they have a place to live or food to eat because that's been their structure since 6 months in to the relationship. An employee who is living paycheck to paycheck can't walk away from their job and become homeless because their boss crossed a line. Boundaries only work if you're entirely independent of every one in your life of whom a boundary can be applied to. They do not work on people who literally control fundamental necessities of your existence as a person in today's age.
In a relationship , isn’t important to discuss certain boundaries that aren’t 100% obvious, or things that make you uncomfortable. How can you ever be in a good relationship if you never discuss boundaries and just expect people to mind read you?
@@jabbaryu5399 you teach people how to treat you. If somebody notices you leave the room, building, or eventually relationship anytime they raise their voice or cuss at you or disrespect you, eventually they might put 2 and 2 together and come ask you, "hey, how come you keep leaving the room when I get heated?" Then, you have an opportunity to connect with them. Otherwise saying things like, "If you swear at me, I'm leaving the room" or repeating those verbally before or instead of acting on your boundary behavior can come across as controlling or winning or nagging. "Please stop yelling at us. I see this upsets you and those feelings deserve address, but can't we discuss this like rational adults? If not now, then I'll go take the kids to the park until we can cool out. All right?" You don't need their permission to exit the room if you feel uncomfortable. And some difficult people will have a fit if you manage your own discomfort without discussing it with them first and then will use the opportunity to break you down. Not everyone, but am I willing to take that risk with my time? Are you? I'm not against giving a warning, like, "hey, I feel uncomfortable when you shout at our children because it makes you look unhinged and that's as sad as it may be comical, but it actually scares them and that makes me uncomfortable. So, to protect my own sanity without interupting you or undermining your parenting, I leave the room so I don't have to participate so I can set an example of strength by repositioning myself in the environment." "If you hurt my ears that loud again, I'll leave the room. If it happens after that, I leave the house. If it still doesn't stop and becomes a pattern of how you manage difficult emotions as a grown up in our household, I think it may say something about either your character or the relationship patterns we are modeling and I reserve the right to leave the relationship until those can be worked out appropriately and maturely." Because we can adult. And we owe kids the chance to learn how to do that peacefully. So, I give a warming in real life especially to newer relationships but if I sniff out a pattern of difficult or offensive or manipulative behavior... I have a plan - not to control anyone else with my boundaries - simply to protect myself with them by minimizing contact with the person this tends to happen with or around. I have learned coping skills like grey rock, yellow rock...and body language that can be helpful in the moment, like aiming my forehead at them when I talk to them or literally averting my eyes, standing shoulder to shoulder in conflict instead of directly across from them... But would rather avoid it if at all possible. Boundaries are for you. They're not about trying to make or force the other person into submission to your will. It's not about winning. It's about peace. If somebody argues with me to disagree because I don't like people swearing in front of my children and it has affected their lives negatively, I don't owe anyone an explanation and I certainly don't have to cow tow to the person cussing at us in order to defend my choice. As an example, for instance. I can make choices and decisions and act on them whether the other person agrees or not. ..their reaction in consideration for or against my feelings that swearing in front of children is wrong will say more about their character than mine. They have a right to disagree. They can swear all day long in front of toddlers... But then they must reject the right to complain when the kiddies get kicked out of preschool or whatever for parroting the parental sailors' mouth. Things that seem small to one person amd probably aren't a big deal in a room full of adults can really impact a child's life negatively in big ways so we might chose to adjust our behavior around them - or not. I'm not going to sit for an argument in the moment to discuss it while I'm upset because I know I might escalate it by accident that way so I take responsibility for part by removing myself in stages to think things through once I've mellowed out. You can only give so many warnings. Pay attention to how somebody treats those warnings - is it with contempt? Aggrivation? Does it become a dominance challenge? If so, this person may have a pattern of that sort of behavior or Inmay me inspiring that disrespect. I have to go check in with myself to check it out. I don't need to have a fit while leaving or cause a dramatic scene. Sometimes quieter is calmer for me.
@@jabbaryu5399 a narcissistic relationship is NEVER going to be a healthy relationship. And if you are currently in one that you cannot leave - that’s what he is talking about.
I think I agree to that. My mother kept asking me every time I came home, whether I cleaned my hands. It annoyed me and made me angry, like, I'm an adult, not a child. I tried a lot of reactions, nothing stopped that cycle. Then one day it dawned to me: I shouldn't react at all to this. I should stay silent. No signal of any communication. Not a single one. I tried that - and it worked. She stopped asking. I think there is no deeper insight within her mind, but a result of forced adaptation: if no reaction feeds the cycle, the cycle "starves and dies".
Less clickbait title: "Boundaries can't save you from abuse" You should absolutely set boundaries with people you trust and with whom you have built mutual respect
Finally, someone understands why I could not stop what some abusive people do.!!! I am sick of being blamed by ignorant people who say I do not try hard enough,
The "being weak" strategy has a counter, unfortunately. They will punish you for being weak and call it "tough love", something like, "I love you so much I don't want you to be weak, therefore I will help you by toughening you up with punishment". Then if you try to tell them you don't want to be punished, they will go back to plan A of beating you down for disagreeing with them.
I think the point is to be weak but also remove yourself from the situation. Don't confront them so that they don't come back at you, but also appear weak enough so that they don't feel threatened by you. I think he should have been more clear about that, but I guess the "hanging up the phone" thing was the only thing he mentioned. This can be something tough tho when it's a parent or a spouse because they are intrinsically linked to you.
I recognized this in my own family. I just started grey rocking them and not showing emotion anymore. Of course I grief the relationship we could have but I know they are not capable of it
From my experience, people like these tend to try and acquire as much information about their victims as possible. If they have prior knowledge of you being strong, they will attempt to figure out whether that is still the case usually through questioning, interrogation, or a less direct method. If the transition seems natural enough even after you're tested, there will be a lot less punishment for being weak. In other words, you're essentially tricking them into believing it's a natural change rather than deliberate avoidance.
yes there are a couple things missing. I have found that if I have some degree of power and protection--say in a large group with a bully sibling--having a strong boundary makes me very unrewarding as a target. It says I am strong and I can back this up. If there is no other support around and with someone who has more power I need to fawn and get out of there. But I am very careful to not be in any way reliant on the bullies in my family or too close or exposed to them. What is missing here is when the abuser is your partner and they are a coercive controller intent on taking away your power and freedom (not just feeling an ego boost) with threat of serious harm if you don't give them what you want. These techniques won't work there. In such person the person may need to acquiesce to survive until they can safely flee. These are good tips for everyday toxic behavious with people who want to put you down and who gaslight and who you can get away from..but not for serious DV, I value the insights about guilt.
Unfortunately, you have to keep using the "weak" excuse and then quickly exit. Don't stick around for more manipulation and abuse. This may result in ultimate discard by the abuser, but this therapist is right, it's the best way to avoid more damage to yourself.
My mom would use manipulative guilt tactics on us from a very young age and shut down our ability to fight against her. Nothing feels approachable with her due to the crocodile tears. If there's a problem you will always walk away feeling like you did something very wrong.
This seems to me more common then I thought growing up.. seems quite a few mothers do that. A friend of mine in university had it real bad to the point where her mother closed herself away at Christmas for the entire 2 days and cried behind the door and blamed it on her or put her in the car and drove by Burger King and told he that’s her future.. soul crushing shit. But she explained me she learned her mother is a narcissist and the moment she understood that she can’t help her she lost all feelings of guilt and freed herself of all the bad feelings
it's like we have the exact same mom ☠️ are you sure we're not related or something? but for real though, wishing the best for you and hope you stay safe out there!
My narc mom insulted me during a family event in front of all of my relatives insulted to filth, put allegations on me while everyone else believed her, she successfully isolated me from the rest of my family. Even if they'd believe me in the future they'd try n stay away rather than getting in my messy family situation. For 12 straight days I felt numb
Something else to remember is that you have to get away from the dynamic or you risk being gaslit. The longer you stay in an abusive dynamic, the more normalized the boundary violations become and you can't easily know what is or isn't on you. For example with a healthy parent the relationship is mutually give and take so you have to give in to some things and so does the parent. With a toxic parent they push the line of normalcy so far that you might think you have to clean the entire house just to do your duty as the child as to not be ungrateful. Only by getting out and forming healthy relationships can you learn healthy boundary dynamics. If you don't, you risk entering new relationships with all of the same problems that have become your normal.
@@abel6298 This generation today knows nothing of it. They chose rebellion and man fulfilling purpose, and look where it gets em - mass mental health decline, weakened soul and body, rotten in sin. You tell them to read a Bible and they look at you with hatred and contempt. Cursing their own parents, no structure or order - all of this has been prophesied and they dont even know it. What a time.
Distancing yourself from a toxic situation does work. I went away from a toxic environment when I was 23 and my life got so much better. At 37, I had to come back and help out with my family, so I’m back in the same environment that made me go away in the first place. Needless to say, in a year time I went from being balanced and relatively happy to being depressed, constantly anxious… I gained 25 pounds and had to start taking medication for the first time in my life. Don’t come back guys. Find other ways to help out and keep yourself out of toxic situations. You can’t win.
This feels like what I've been doing. Always bending. Result: my needs have never been met, I never receive any care. Why didn't I fix this as an adult? Because I never learned to be any other way. I didn't know there was a choice. No one told me. Now this is hard-wired and my inability to speak up for myself ensures that my needs are still not met to a degree that I'm disabled. I'm trying to change it, but after 40 years of owning my weakness and being abused, I can seeminly only have one kind of relationship with other people - one where I express zero needs and cater to their every whim.
But you can change it. I did, am also in my 40s Mother is a narc, so is sister, so is husband. I didn't even know self care was a thing. UA-cam has taught me everything 😂 Even just making your bed when you wake up is self care because you're don't something nice for your future self, later that day. The best way it was explained to me was, how would you tell your friend to be, or how would you treat your friend in a situation .. then do that for you. Start small. My big first step was using face cream every day. That's how much I was neglecting myself. Not even face cream... wasnt combing my hair every day.. Trust me, if I can get out of that, anyone can
Can't believe the scenario fits my parents exactly! Except I chose not to react - at all. When the crocodile tears, accusations, high-pitched yelling, insults flying, I just chose to keep quiet. After 3.5 years, they've kinda given up with the attack, though it still comes up from time and time again - but I just keep real quiet and look blankly at them. And after a long pause, I will find my way to get out of the situation. Interestingly, to them, it's as though those confrontations never happened, and they just went on their merry ways. I have zero clue how they can function so brokenly in society, but it's on them and not on me, so yeah, whatever - and more focus on me, myself and I. It's weird but it's true - I don't get it too, but that's the only way I can change my circumstances since I can't change the parents
It’s so insane to me that people act like that to others and don’t think twice. They see your reaction, any normal healthy person would recognize that and connect the dots. But no.
@@mandomavicus3616 I'm surviving and trying to find my way to live. Everyday is a new day for me, though I do have my low days, and also worse days. Especially coming from an Asian family and being an only child... The only compromise is I cannot move out the house. So I find my peace and balance elsewhere instead 😊
thats awesome, i have a brother like that but for some reason i keep trying to react and try to change him naively, keeping quiet is so hard cuz im afraid i will actually let their accusations and insults sink into me and make me actually believe all that.
I did/do the exact same thing to my parents, I have tried standing up for myself and when I do I just see how completely lost they are. When I hit 20 I signed up for an academy on the other side of country without telling them, within a week of them finding out I had already moved out and now I basicly only see them at Christmas, Aaand they still pull the same crap on me. My advice would be to just keep ignoring them 3:
I think it's important to re-iterate (as Dr. K did several times) that setting boundaries isn't *always* a bad choice. It's just that we need multiple tools in our toolbox to deal with different kinds of situations. Setting boundaries works when the other person is reasonable, invested in the relationship, and you have the ability to remove yourself from their presence, as this gives them an opportunity to show you that they care and keep you in their life. If they don't care, then a boundary is just another way for them to show you that they don't care. Boundaries are for those we respect and who intend to respect us back.
isn't what he describes also a boundary? I'm not going to tolerate this and use these tools to keep my peace of mind at the cost of not having a relationship with this person. (Outwardly, you have a relationship, but you don't actually have a relationship)
I followed my dad's advice to always hit bullies back when they hit me. Always worked. You don't need to be stronger than them, they don't need to be reasonable. You just need to be an unrewarding target.
@@simontmn I stopped doing that because it always got me in more trouble than it got the bullies in, so they just kept bullying me because it hurt me a lot more than it hurt them and they knew that.
The problem with this is that playing weak just encourages a lot of narcissists to keep walking all over you. My wife did that and ended up getting walked on so many times that she started believing she couldn't defend herself. When she got out she ended up having to abandon that tactic and set hard boundaries with them. I think what's described here has a valid place as a delaying tactic until you can escape but isn't a viable longterm strategy.
It only works short term eventually they notice you're just playing dead and since they're not getting their fuel they Amp it up to like 11 it takes a LOT of energy and strength and strategy to deal with these demons
I would also not try that at work. You can't hang up on your boss (or even colleagues) without consequences. If you find yourself stuck with a narcissistic boss/coworker, polish up your resume, maybe watch some videos on how to best do that, and get out as fast as you can. I understand that's not possible for minors (children) of narcissists, but ... hang in there until you're old enough to leave, then leave. There are some other problems with playing weak with a narcissist as well. Like you said, many will take that as an invitation to walk all over you. And if it's a really smart narcissist, they'll figure out ways to manipulate you even more. E.g. "Oh, I'm so sorry to hear you're not doing well. Are you sure, then that you're up to going on that vacation you were planning to have? Best stay home and I'll take care of you. We can do all kinds of fun things!" ... and you just know that "fun" means doing your least favorite things and now that's how it will go. I don't think there's the one strategy to rule them all. Some narcissists can be subdued by fighting them head on, some can be manipulated by fake praise, some feed off the weak (and pretty much leave their victims alone once they've drawn some blood), some fade when you ignore them ... and so on. For my own life, I have zero tolerance for narcissists. Easiest to deal with them by not dealing with them at all.
I think it would work as long as it needed to. Obviously, it’s not a great environment to be in, but it’s inevitable for some. Think about intelligent women of the past. Many accomplished their goals through manipulating the men around them. They couldn’t leave, so they absolutely would use this strategy long term
15:25 I heard a nun explain guilt and shame. She explained that guilt is a fact, shame is the feeling. So they do confession of guilt (the fact) you don't live in shame.
I have toxic family. I separated from them almost entirely in my mid-20s. It came as a shock when I started setting hard boundaries. I gave them Ultimatums such that if they were disrespectful, hostile, or otherwise toxic (at my discretion) I would cease contact without guilt. They pulled insults, guilt trips, everything you can think of. I cut one of them off entirely and the rest took those boundaries as serious as a heart attack. We dont talk often but when we do it's completely fine now.
My boxing coach always told us that we should only fight people who we consider equals. Fighting people who are much weaker is dishonourable and fighting people who are much stronger is foolish
Obviously it's not that boundaries don't work, it's being intelligent about how you do it. Understanding that you can do it in a way where you are not joining with a person in a power play, ego play, toxic dynamic. There's a term 'grey rock' used when removing yourself from a narcisistic person where you basically give them NOTHING to feed on or feed into. Boundaries are a healthy thing, you just do it intelligently.
This is awesome! It is actually what I started doing in my former long term toxic relationship, and I agree with all of these steps! I carried a lot of false guilt, and realizing that brought me so much freedom! I “set boundaries” exactly as you describe as being the “weak one”, and he didn’t have a leg to stand on this way. He may even have started to pity me, and back off some. Luckily I found my strength over time and am completely out of that 30 year marriage. Thank you so much for bringing the truth about boundaries into the conscienceless of all of us ❤ It’s really nice to be out of this exhausting mind game.
True, setting boundaries doesn't work all the time, I've met very abusive people and I've always thought of boundaries as a waste of time in my case. When you set boundaries, you have to tell other people the things that disgurb or trigger you in order for them to avoid them. Problem is, when you tell your weaknesseto abusive people, you are giving them a weapon to hurt you. So I barely tell my parents about my fears and dreams anymore, they have this idea of educating through fear and they tend to shatter my dreams. Both wanted to control exactly what kind of friends I had, so I ended up not telling them about my friends at all, I don't even mention their names, I know they might take them away from me.
Except what in effect what he says is that you SHOULD set boundaries because YOU need them to avoid getting hurt or injured as a human... the whole difference is in the way you uphold them.
He is not telling people to give away their real weaknesses. You have to tell them something you are strong enough from inside, Weak on the outside only.
Hey random internet person who personally is going through this very thing depending on how your parents react you've really got two options here. You can do what you're doing rn which is basically "grey rock" not giving them any response that challenges them just agreeing even if deep down you think they're wrong. Personally that didn't work with my N parents what worked best is taking what ammo they know hurts(commenting on my appearance or abilities) and agreeing with them. This isn't for everyone and took me a VERY long time but when I know they're trying to make me feel lesser agreeing with them and watching them die inside from me not giving them their fuel has given me a lot of power you could also just completely avoid them as much as you can but I find it triggers their ego usually.
I think this entire thread has revealed that people don't know what boundaries are. An example of a boundary is, "I don't enter/stay in relationships with people who cheat on me." That's something that I have set for myself. I don't have to tell my partner that cheating is a "boundary" for me. When we discussed the terms of our relationship, we agree to be monogamous, and that is it. I don't have to talk about the consequences of them cheating on me. Zip, zilch, nada. If that person cheats on me, I refer back to my boundary in my head, and then I exit the relationship. I don't have to say a single word to the person. I have never directly communicated that cheating was a deal-breaker. The only thing that I've ever communicated to that person is that my standard for the relationship was fidelity. I don't have to express to them how I handle their failure to meet the standard set forth in the relationship. Your job isn't to broadcast your boundaries. In fact, when you do that people are going to challenge you. You can communicate your needs. "Hey, in a relationship I expect fidelity, loyalty, no cheating, ect." The person can then agree to meet your needs or not. You don't have to reveal any of your psychological trauma or emotional ticks or triggers, in order to communicate your relationship needs, requirements, standards, or expectations.
Thank you for talking about this! When I was trying to learn cognitive behavioral therapy, and being assertive, my narcissist family HATED it. I got into an even more unstable situation because of it, that eventually led to homelessness
@@dualshock3 Hmm, not really. It's hard to explain... They would suggest that I find a way to support myself faster, or I would have to look into homeless shelters. I have ADHD, and would explain that I needed help, and time, but they would just not make any accommodations, or believe that I needed them. It got so hard to do anything with my home being threatened so often, that I ran away. Only to struggle to support myself, until I was homeless and couch surfing for 4 months. So in a nutshell, me trying to ask to be treated better was the reason I ended up homeless for a time. I worked hard and got lucky, so now I'm in a much better situation, and I no longer speak to my parents
@@whiteseacrafts3342 you not talking to them is a boundary. you don't have to say "I'm not gonna let you do ____" but separation/ ignoring them is a boundary.
You might now reconsider your previous suggestion that borderlines aren't that bad. Dunk on narcissists all you like, but compare the diagnostic criteria of NPD vs. BPD in the context of maintaining healthy boundaries. The very concept immediately runs up against the fear of abandonment and so on down the line. Of course narcs don't like being told they are wrong, but explosive anger isn't one of their diagnostic criteria. Plus, narcs have a strong interest in doing what benefits them most, whereas borderlines are just as happy to self-harm and impulsively self-sabotage just to be contrarian and defiant while angry and splitting.
Thank you for this. I recently experienced exactly this with an old friend with whom I recently tried to set a boundary for the first time. The manipulative side in her came out hard and when I held my ground and refused to be manipulated she blew up the relationship and blamed it entirely on me. It was really disappointing. It's extra tricky because she's got a health condition that has unpredictable cognitive impacts, and it makes it that much more complicated to discern what behaviors she can control (and shouldn't make excuses for) and what she genuinely can't. Setting boundaries without guilt when the other person does have a genuine physical/mental constraint is really tricky.
True, but as someone whos nerodivergent with somebody who has a lot of disorders that make emotional regulation hard, she has to learn to account for that, you can be understanding, but unless she is actively learning herself how to navigate and deal with her feelings as much as she's possibly able to, as is her responsibility, you shouldn't feel bad for cutting her out of your life.
Yes, discernment between narcissistic behavior and neurodivergent tendencies can be difficult. One thing that I learned from Dr.Ramani’s channel (highly recommend) is that if an inappropriate behavior is stemming from neurodivergent tendencies, and the person comes to understand that it was inappropriate, an expression of apology is usually forthcoming. While if the inappropriate behavior stems from narcissistic tendencies, and the person comes to understand (or already knew) that it was inappropriate, a denial usually ensues…an explosion or a flipping of the situation to remove blame from themselves. A refusal to accept responsibility for the behavior.
It's really tricky. I had a friend who got diagnosed with ADHD and uses it as an excuse/cover for her behavior (in confusing other people, dismissing others' feelings, and jumping to conclusions). I once confronted her about it and she exploded and shifted the blame onto me by saying how I needed to ask more questions (to "handle her ADHD better" when she failed to inform me about it - we see each other once a year) Luckily, I had a response to that. I countered with a list of facts that I did ask questions, they just didn't listen and dismissed it. She got real quiet, real fast. And then just self-deprecated herself and said it's her ADHD to absolve herself of any responsibility. I get she feels bad that she can't help it or she feels frustrated about her ADHD, but there was never any words about "I'm sorry that you got hurt from my behavior." The focus was always on her and her ADHD, no room for other people. Almost like she was always the victim. Zero responsibility. And zero attention to other people's feelings. That's not ADHD, that's her being self-preoccupied... Maybe lack of social skills, but all that is learn-able, so quit using the ADHD as a cover for something else that's lacking and for not working on those things. It's giving ADHD people a bad rep.
@@AsianCurls I feel you! It’s rough. The ADHD aspect needs gentle understanding, non-shaming support, and a “let’s see in what alternative way we could make this work” type of friend. But the not-ADHD part, the denial of responsibility, the blame shifting, that is something different. That makes things difficult.
Isn't the purpose of boundaries mainly internal? I was raised in a narcissistic family as the sometime "clown" sometime "emotional garbage can" for the narcissists, and sometime scapegoat. I was conditioned to not have boundaries, and I did not understand what they were or how to develop them. Learning to look within myself as an adult, and find my own boundaries, was a very important thing for me to understand and do. My boundaries are for me, to guide my decisions, to help keep my life in balance, to keep myself safe from abuse and abusers. Boundaries have saved my mind and my life. I am not going to help abusers feel superior by "playing weak". It's not my concern or my problem to help an abuser. I am not about controlling someone else, and I am not going to play games with others because there is no "winning" with a narcissist or abuser. The only way to win is to not engage. For kids with narcissistic parents it sucks because our society offers no support for them. They have to survive, as best they can, until they can escape their parents. We should change this and give them support instead, but I am not holding my breath.
I've never thought that having a boundary required that you be either assertive or confrontational. What you are describing still sounds like setting boundaries to me, but choosing to do so without engaging in a battle about it. I've always felt that my boundaries were completely about me and my limitations. That's how I have always presented it, because it really has nothing to do with them. I cannot handle the behavior being presented in this moment with the number of spoons I have available. That's a boundary. When we make it about them, it becomes confrontational and often leads to fighting.
So glad you brought up narcissists right at the beginning! Boundary setting does not work with these people. I have the misfortune of being stuck living with one. You cannot set a boundary with them and expect them to just respect it, even moreso if they have something “over” you. “I don’t want to talk about that” means they’ll keep bringing it up because they KNOW it’ll bother you and they feed off making you angry/upset. “Don’t touch me” means they’ll find any excuse to do so, “”accidentally”” or not. I’m starting to find it very funny to “starve” narcissists’ reward pathways. Never let anyone tell you you’re weak for “shutting down” on these people.
@@firerams_and_arisinglion For you, maybe not, but that's the singular way to approach a situation. Other life experiences need to be considered, along with the different operations of other people. Considering your UA-cam name, however, it's not at all surprising why you'd feel it's not ok to be angry with your parents, especially when fear is the motivating factor into why it's mandatory to obey them. It becomes even more pronounced when you look at them as your parents and your equals. This core interaction shapes all other interactions.
@@firerams_and_arisinglionhow is having more options bad? Sure it can be a lot of work to decide what path you want to do down, but it allows you to pick the best choice for yourself.
7:00 People often call it stoicism or emotional distance or mindfull stillness, but I've never heard someone refer to this behaviour/ state as the "crappiest lootbox in the universe". It's brilliant, a perfect metaphor and obviously a perfect translation of the meaning behind the older terms for a gamer audience. I love it, you're amazing Dr. K! :)
This is so GOOD !!! finally some one not repeating the same old tropes over & over " set boundaries" bla,bla..you are so right if we cant escape the narc & have no leverage we need to use covert tactics..thank you Sir🙌🏽👍🏽💥🔥🖤💖
Thank you so much for being this real! it is beyond helpful and comforting to have someone just acknowledge how overwhelming dealing with a narcissistic parent or a situation of no power.. However, don't use the "be weak" too literally. do not victimize yourself or be exaggerating with it but only let go of blaming or fighting (any action that insinuates feelings of hate). and do your actions from love. You do not need to get it back from them, you will get it from yourself and the unlimited inner peace you will feel when you do it.
Setting healthy boundaries is not for the purpose of getting people to respect you, it's about respecting yourself enough to set a boundary that essentially requests others treat you with the same respect that you treat yourself and them with, and then making a decision about how to move forward with that person in your life based of how they react to your boundaries.
Thank you! My therapist tries to help me by suggesting boundaries, but it's not that simple. I'm just not aggressive enough to clap back or hit the breaks on the people that are dogging me at home. I'm not weak, I'm just tired. I've had a hard childhood, adolescence, and at 34 I feel like I don't have that kind of energy.
It takes a lot of practice to be assertive. I’ve been in this inferior/superior power dynamic with my dysfunctional disordered family for my lifetime, I tried to put in boundaries but they got abusive and after a couple of years of that BS I’ve minimised contact to almost nothing - they tricked me the other week regarding health- I wouldn’t return a call because my dads voice message was aggressive so they got in touch with my daughters father (we broke up over 20 years ago). I also find it hard to think when I’m emotionally overwhelmed, being abused - my sister does lawyer mode demanding “evidence” and rapid fire accusations, screaming that sort of thing. I’m 43 and I’m so exhausted. Engaging is just not worth it. Trying to be assertive with healthier people and situations that are just saying no. Take care.
The trick is to distance instead of engage. Don't react to whatever they throw at you unless it's sure to put them in their place. Walk with a smile on your face. They try to do damage chances are they do it out of a position of weakness. Laugh at them for it. Show them how ineffectual they are. Show them how pathetic they look. If they feel pathetic they will inevitably back off because that's the last thing they want to feel.
This is priceless advice for dealing with power dynamics and narcissists. I wish more therapists actually addressed how to handle being in a less powerful dynamic.
What is suggested in this video IS setting boundaries. Boundaries are not about controlling or attempting to control someone else's behavior, nor is it about blaming or calling them out. It's about being clear within yourself [and ideally communicating to others] what you need and/or what you will not tolerate. Others get to choose how they behave and you take action accordingly. Non-Violent Communication is a great book to read that provides solid tools to communicate and relate with others while maintaining appropriate boundaries. That being said, I agree that boundaries are not very functional in situations involving children as they are dependent on the adults. But they can work very well between adults.
“Boundaries only work if you have power” TRUER WORDS EVER SPOKEN!!!. I have used the “pretend being weak” strategy out of survival and it really works!!! I have zero power to back any boundary so I had to pretend I agree with my bullies and took blame (while knowing they are the ass*oles).
Totally agree..."Be like water" is my go-to strategy. I'm in my 3rd situation where I have very little power (1. mother of an infant, 2. immigration visa sponsored by an individual who used that fact, 3. my current situation where there are 2 people who feel they have the power to terminate my employment at will). Even if the other person tries to make it my fault for not setting healthy boundaries (the most recent tactic), all I can do is apologise for not being able to set those boundaries effectively without their help.
Doctor Ramani actually introduced me into the idea of the DEEP "dont't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize" If you have no authority over toxic person's presence in your life - this is a great rule.
It's like the expression "don't feed the troll." Why are they attacking you? To upset you. That's their GOAL. If you don't react that way, if you just say "ok," then they failed. If they keep trying and it keeps failing, then inevitably they will adapt and change their behavior, since its not working anymore.
Yet another super valuable, high-quality video, although I can’t help but think that there needs to be a part two to this that emphasises the need to unlearn these behaviours when they’re no longer necessary. I can imagine many children of narcissistic parents adopting these strategies initially as benign survival mechanisms, but then continuing to utilise them automatically after they’ve gained more power in their relationships and ultimately (and unintentionally) becoming manipulative narcissists themselves. I think it needs to be clearer in the video that this is not a permanent solution ideally, and you should really strive to escape or gain more power in these relationships as soon as you realistically can, and to monitor your behaviours across your relationships and consciously re-learn boundary setting as you do.
Yes, I was thinking the same thing actually. I wondered how you can go about using this strategy without internalizing the habit of always blaming yourself without taking responsibility, which seems like a pretty toxic response in a healthy situation.
To add, I remember Dr K commenting on stream once that a lot of the posts in the r/raisedbynarcissists subreddit are ironically written very narcissistically. There are some patterns of repeated, inter-generational trauma that I see discussed a lot, particularly regarding severe abuse, but I rarely hear much about the subtler (and probably more common) forms of toxicity that can be passed down and repeated via maladaptive coping mechanisms, e.g. a neglected child who learns to be ego-centric to make sure that their own needs are met, but who then grows into a narcissistic and neglectful adult in turn. I’d be really interested to hear Dr K talk about any specific examples like this that he’s seen frequently in his practice, how to recognise our own red flags if those situations ring true for us, and how start the process of course-correcting for each specific issue so that we can to stop the cycle and become better humans
I agree with this! I had to kinda catch myself to remind myself that this prob isn't good long term. It's definitely a decent option for those emergency situations, and I wish I had known more about this in the past when I was in a bad living situation with a narcissist (happened to be a child of a narcissistic parent, she ranted about everything her horrible mother did to her and she did nearly all of those things to me herself). It's useful, potentially life saving, esp as I was in the situation he talked about at the beginning where the other person freaked out at me setting boundaries in a healthy way several times. But also not a good habit to be in long term
Keep in mind that Dr. K develops these starategies with his patients. I guess they will pay attention that this will not become a habit and used only temporarily and with awareness. Still the risk can't be denied.
@@minolaki5956 I'm not sure that can automatically be assumed. But it can definitely not be assumed for his viewers, and since he's sharing the strategies here, it would be good to address it here in any case
Dude! This message needs to get out there. Your insights and delivery are amazing! Thank you for sharing this clarity with me and the rest of the world.
Deciding not to talk to or engage with boundary *is* a boundary. You don't have to say "I'm not gonna let you do ____" but separation/ ignoring them is a boundary.
@@Heyu7her3 Disengaging a behaviour isn't engaging a behaviour. You assumed the consequent by falsely predicating it upon engagement, which is a false cause fallacy. Furthermore you affirmed the consequent (fallacious form of a Modus ponens) meaning your reasoning is unsound, if a then b, a therefore b is valid. A then b, b therefore a isn't sound reasoning.
So glad you touched on this. Often times we see a lot of victim blaming when it comes to abuse. It’s only possible to set boundaries when you have power to begin with.
Thank you, Dr K, for this insight into the narcissist's mind. I've had to endure it for 3 decades, and it's now broken my entire body (but that's another story on its own). While I agree with almost everything you've said in this video, I have since developed a different approach on how to deal with a narcissist now that I know their behaviour through and through. My approach is the "riposte". It's not an easy technique to develop and use, but if executed perfectly, it will shut the narcissist down within seconds. In short, you have to outmanoeuvre the master manipulator (narcissist). Never instigate, but retaliate (non-violently) and shut their shit down. I don't know if you'll have the time to see my reply, but I figured I'd put this on here anyway to help others out if they've had to live with a narcissist all their lives. Cheers. - S.K. Guna
It really comes down to self love. I was angry and got depressed. At one point I'd had it and I yelled out all the hurt I'd been feeling, at home with myself. I immediately felt better and stronger in myself. What I realised the emotion was telling me was: That was not ok. I won't be treated badly. I deserve better. Thinking clearly is highly important to notice ones own intentions boundaries and others intentions boundaries. Thereafter it's noticing the energy dynamic. People usually communicate in emotions underneath all the talking. Love yourself. Be mindful of intentions, and notice the energy in the interaction. Think clearly. Use logic to assess if an emotion us justified or not, but always always always acknowledge the emotion, then dissect it.
This feels uncomfortable for me. My dad did this to convince my mom he was too weak and pathetic to be held accountable. He recoiled and cried. He would apologize and say that he just wasn’t a good parent and that no one could love him. Which made it our job to regulate his emotions.
Sounds like your dad was creating the manipulative behavior. He created an unloved persona because you and your mother unintentionally reward him with "love and attention" through guilt. I'm sorry you and your mother had to go through that. I hope you can make use of this video to avoid such situation in the future.
I did this when growing up with my abusive family. Didn't realize it was a legit tactic, but it did help in most cases. Things only escalated as I became independent and stood up for myself "properly." Properly meaning I would set boundaries, posture, hold my ground, and be willing to throw my own punches.
I love how people wave the flag of "facts don't care about your emotions" (which is not a false statement but only half of the reality) while at the same time there is this extremely strong and extremely unconcious mechanism of "my emotions don't care about facts" :P
I’m privileged enough to be in a situation where I can set healthy boundaries in every aspect of my life. Still this was a very informative video and I hope I remember the basics of this moving forward. Thank you for constantly sharing your experiences
THANK YOU. The power differential is EVERYTHING. It absolutely blows my mind how many people in my life can't understand when they are making demands of people who CAN'T SAY NO.
Thank you @HealthyGamerGG This really hit home! When you're the scapegoat kid, and barely allowed boundaries, it can be especially difficult to protect one's boundaries with the golden child, ("...you're selfish..."), and you're made to feel guilty even if you manage. Especially if the GC is younger. The best I could do was to learn to avoid the GC as much as humanly possible, and go grey rock when I couldn't. But this was in the 70's. I was a kid, and really had no idea what I was doing. In adulthood, I've been told that I was a difficult child because I was "withdrawn." Gee, I wonder why. Ahhh yes! I did set a couple of perfectly appropriate boundaries with a couple of former bosses, and soon found myself unemployed.
This makes so much sense. I always have been very dissociated even as a kid. Now as I'm older I realize that my parents are both narcassistic. It makes sense why my brain has learned from so early on to dissociate.
Same. I'm both proud of our brains for protecting us like that and also upset because we didn't deserve to be living in an environment so traumatic that the only way to survive was to just completely check out. Hope you're feeling better these days 🙏
@@anona2017 Same here. It's interesting 'cause I was told to set boundaries as I got older and into therapy but those boundaries never worked. I became scared to set boundaries because it always was met with hostility. I wish I had this video so many years ago. Now I know and have been told by therapists this basically, to not have it effect me emotionally. So I dissociate more. It's all very interesting. I hope things are better for you as well or at least leading to it.
My high school gf was a savant at making me feel guilty and getting me to take blame for things. The one big example that still stands out in my mind is when we decided to each say something we wanted to change in the relationship, and mine was that I felt like she was keeping me from having any friends other than her (upon further investigation after we broke up, she was absolutely isolating me from anybody else I showed any Interest in being friends with) or that I couldn't spend time with other people unless she was present and I was focused on her, first and foremost. And somehow, she managed to turn it around on me and get upset at ME. Somehow I was the bad guy for being sad that I didn't have any other friends, and somehow she was the victim of my loneliness...actually, if memory serves, she pulled the "am I not enough for you?" card as well as the "but I just love you so much and I need you around me 100% of the time otherwise ill be depressed" card. So I wasn't quite setting a boundary (more the opposite, trying to be released from a cage), but I definitely activated her trap card and got a large serving of gaslighting and emotional manipulation for dinner
Thank you SO MUCH for making this video!!!! It’s been so frustrating trying to set boundaries. Stuck in a narcissistic relationship and I can’t get any relief.
Hello! Thanks for your video. I think it's awesome. I have tried setting boundaries with my abusive ex who I share a daughter with and it ends so badly. I have noticed acting weak or blaming myself actually has worked in the past. But I've heard so many things about setting boundaries so I keep trying. I'm going to try not to "set boundaries" in a "strong" way anymore. I always feel awful afterwards and it usually escalates situations. In the bible it says to turn the other cheek, and what you are saying aligns with the bible a lot better and I like that because I am a Christian. So now I'll have less cognitive dissonance in my belief systems to work through too. And you know what, 5% of the problems with my ex would be my fault. So letting the blame fall on me (while also walking away) is in some ways honest. Cause I'm honestly owning up to whatever weakness I have. And I'm not perfect either. No one is.
I learned my worth and value through my own spiritual awakening. I've learned to set firm boundaries with everyone. I realized that I had been allowing people to treat me badly because I was co-dependent and needed to feel accepted. Once I stopped caring what others thought of me (because their perceptions were based in their own ideas and limited information) it became easier to have and maintain those boundaries. I would rather have peace in my life than attempt to hold onto relationahips with people who feel they can disrespect me and treat me however they want.
Thank you for addressing this! This whole boundary setting thing almost becomes a way to victim blame so I'm glad finally someone is addressing the inherent power dynamics that people ignore.
Thank you so much. I have been in a work environment that prevents me from walking away from bullying and manipulation due to the living conditions. This has helped me tremendously.
I'm glad that this appeared on the channel (especially since I experienced this myself). Especially like the parts about dissociation and trying to separate emotions from actions, not act impulsively but think things trough, give yourself time. However this strategy of "pretending to be weak" is often bound to fail - backfire even. Perhaps it can work sometimes, but very often not (especially when dealing with toxic parent/s). Why? Because if you aren't trying to argue back, aren't fighting back, are just taking (or at least are pretending, playing that you are) the blame & guilt, are telling them "I'm weak, you're are strong. You are right, I'm wrong", then: 1. They get that boost, reward, the feed for their ego - "That's right! You're wrong, I'm right! No matter I didn't provided any arguments or facts and you might've easily provided at least 5, I'm right, listen to me you empty-skulled shit! Listen to me and do exactly as I say! What I say is reality! Reality itself is what I say!" 2. They will reinforce their demands. Will make you into their slave, raise you like cattle - a drone to serve them, and/or try to mold you into a clone of themselves(because why consider a child other human being - other being with their own mind, aspirations, thoughts, preferences, likes and dislikes, hopes and dreams. No, they are my legacy, continuation of what I want, they will do as I say, that's it!). They will reinforce their demands, not allow you to have a thought of your own - make you their lobotomized slave, a drone to serve them till the day they die, and/or make you into what they want you to be, make you do/continue what they want(even if it's impossible for you due to your incurable health issues). You aren't fighting back? Time to abuse you. To some people it can be boring, annoying, unrewarding. But to many others, be it bullies or toxic parent/s - they will just exploit it. They will make you follow every little "rule" they make up for you. 3. Not to mention that over an extended period of time (which it's bound to take unless the said toxic people suddenly vanish) eventually you may start associating yourself with those labels, your brain may learn that "this is the way to go". You'll learn to live like this, you'll learn to trust living like this, and anything else will feel scary/anxiety-inducing because of it being so new and different - not what you grown to know. You'll start believing certain things (that you're not right, guilty, defenseless, weak, it's pointless to try to reason/fight back, better just give in. Low self-esteem, no fighting "for your own", just submissing to the pain and unfairness), the words/thoughts will become flesh. Even if try to "just play" this as a game, over time it may become difficult to know the difference between just playing it, or really experiencing it, being this. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm not a trained medical professional after all, all I have is a slight bit of experience under my belt. I just think that it's might be the case and it feels this way, especially after listening to quite a few podcasts at "Tom Billyeu", or "Goalcast", or even here, speaking of mindsets, associating yourself with certain things, traumas, getting "brain software" coding itself in over time and being very difficult or even almost impossible to just swap.
Thank you for this video, as it reaffirms much of my life experience. I agree with your decision that the best defence to that type of behaviour *is* to be weak. To look around for help. My mental and physical health progressively worsened as I tried to be resilient to the abuse I faced at home growing up and later in the workplace. I finally shut down at 53 after a lifetime of self-learned coping and masking behaviours failed me. The abusive behaviour was finally too much for me to cope with. That's the first thing my psychiatrist said after I told him my story of how I ended up where I did: "You are resilient," he said. And all I could answer, crying, was: "I am tired of being resilient. I don't want to be resilient anymore." He diagnosed me with C-PTSD on that first visit and later diagnosed me with ADHD. Being resilient, and being strong, just leaves you with more scars and more damage. It's not worth it. I am still in the deconstruction phase, reliving past experiences through an informed lens and learning how to manage these conditions. I am also cautious when I venture out and am no longer predisposed to 'take it' or 'be strong.'
Yeah, it's kind of interesting to think about... on the one hand "being resilient" sounds like an obviously good thing. But... do you really "need" it in our modern society? It is not like you will just die if you are or act weak... unlike prehistoric times, or maybe even a couple of centuries ago, when many of those deep intuitions or social expectations evolved. I am just a bit uncertain about what else to aim for instead...
Logic does not create emotion. It's the other way around ... emotion creates the logic. That is so powerful. Guilty feelings comes first that the feeling of guilt drives the belief of doing something wrong.... I really really wish someone would have taught me this sooner.
Hmm. My understanding has been that setting boundaries are never about trying to control others. It's about understanding, recognizing, and honoring the interpersonal boundaries that exist (i am not you, you are not me. You are responsible for your mood, I am responsible for my mood. I am not responsible for fixing you and you are not responsible for fixing me, you may not and aren't able to define or explain my internal experience, and vice versa, etc.) And establishing boundaries is about establishing >my own< limits and what >I'm< going to do if someone crosses them, what am I going to do to honor and protect my needs, how am I going to remove myself or disengage. Boundaties aren't coercion and manipulation and control of others. Thats actually crossing and violating boundaries.
I’m going through a situation right now with a lot of guilt and emotional manipulation, found your video. Thank you so much for the content, I learned a lot and it has been helpful with helping me digest and strategize. Keep doing what your doing 👍
I got bullied a tiny bit in middle school because I was weird, but I would completely ignore the bullies or just laugh when they made fun of me, they quickly stopped because they got nothing out of me. So I heavily support this message.
I have this way of going into this mechanical mode. I wear the blankest expression when talking to a manipulative person. I will say sorry but won't respond to the button pushing. It's ineresting to watch because it's like watching someone going through all their tools from a toolbox trying to fix something they don't know how to fix. The more unresponsive I am the more frustrated they get. Eventually they will lose interest and move on, which is probably for the best. I think I developed this from passed bad relationships.
Wow i did this alot as a child lol. But it took some time for me to regain the ability to express emotions, always make sure to do that once u get outta that situation
Love these concepts and hope they work for many in horrible situations like this. I would say there’s a caveat to this and that if this doesn’t work, please don’t blame yourself. My parents unfortunately already view boundaries being set against them as weakness and had very little problem with attacking victims and continuing the torrent of insults and abuse against the “weak”. They see weakness as a moral failing. When I would try to disengage from my mother it would only make her angrier, and she would sit with me for literally multiple hours screaming, spitting, and grabbing my face or arms to make me confront her so she could get what she wanted. I could only take so much before I’d break. If I didn’t react it only fueled the fire, and she was only ever satisfied when I would cry and tell her whatever she wanted to hear. If I wasn’t crying, she didn’t think I was genuine. If I was anything else but weeping, she was angry and relentless. I’ve come to accept this truly wasn’t my fault as an adult, but this video would have hurt when I was younger and still trying to understand why I was the target of so much vitriol. My dad is a true narcissist and these tactics did/would work slightly better on him, assuming his blood pressure wasn’t too out of wack. He would however come back later angry a second time sometimes for “making him feel guilty” so you really can’t win ‘em all 😂 Final thing and this is small - bullies want to put you in YOUR place, not theirs. They want to put you back at the bottom of the social hierarchy where you belong. I found that amusing though, I’ve never heard someone use “put you in their place” before. 😂 I think as much as you’d love to give everyone the tools for all situations, there are some that are just unwinnable. Life doesn’t have a balance team to ensure all battles can be won, and sometimes you just don’t have the ability to overcome certain hurdles and will have to flee when you can. My only solution and what saved my life was counting down the days until I’d be able to move out and making active progress towards that, and I know even that isn’t a possibility for many. Sometimes there’s nothing you can do but hold on to whatever anchor you’ve got and endure. Just remember that it will be worth it to survive, even if you don’t believe it now. I didn’t think I’d ever be happy, but I’ve experienced such an amazing and beautiful life since I finally got out of there. ❤ Wonderful video as always!!
Some people feel triggered by stone cold ice walls up, making them feel attacked by that ice wall. It can be a very common painful trigger that goes back to childhood.
Many people especially religious people who like focus on the family were specifically taught that you have to break your child's will and the proof of that was them falling apart crying. No amount of healthy boundaries is going to work with parents like this. Getting out and cutting contact is the only way. They feel they've been given rights by god to use and abuse you.
@@amberinthemist7912 it wasn’t religious in my situation, my dad is an atheist and my mom was “spiritual” at most. It was about control for her. My dad was verbally abusive towards her, she was verbally abusive towards me. Sometimes I would act out against my sister as a result but my mom would get physical with me if I did so mostly I just cowered and hid away as much as I could. There are many motivations for behavior like this and I do agree religion can be a big part of that. Many times the trauma a child goes through becomes their weapon as an adult and they pass that along to their children. It can be religious or otherwise.
Actually, by crying and telling her what she wanted to hear, you did exactly what he advises in the video! Except he advises to do it as a conscious tactic where you're acting like you agree with her, so you can keep yourself safe, without actually feeling/internalizing those emotions.
I'm so sorry you went through all that. I hope that you have support from people who are level headed and genuine with your best interests at heart, if not I hope that you are or will have resources to get support from therapy ❤
Yes! I love that “be like water”! That’s what I do and I absolutely love it! For some reason, it is power! It makes me feel so powerful to have the self-control to not give them what they want and to slip away and out the door! So empowering! My life has become so peaceful since becoming like water! 🙌🏻
Oh my…. Thank you! I‘m trying so set boundaries for some time now and I really have problems with those using emotional manipulation because I‘m very accessible to that due to my childhood and other experiences . I already know that I have to leave once I notice that my actions are driven by emotion to think about it. It’s been a long way just to notice and accept those emotions in the first place, but I’m walking - I will try this. Thank you so much.
When I set (sat?) boundaries, my mom got angry and told me (and people around me that) I was selfish, ungrateful, impolite and immature. She is never going to respect my personal boundaries. So I maintain the only boundary I can: As little contact as possible.
They can also use you being weak as a justification to walk over your boundaries anyways. My mother used it as a justification at least. In the end the only true answer to boundaries is gaining control over your own life, or if you have to stay with them finding leverage over them you can use.
To be honest, you don't need to give them a reason or justify it at all. Just don't react in the way they want, don't get mad or sad or anything, just blankly listen, maybe say "ok," and after a minute or so, walk away to do something else/hang up. It doesn't matter WHY. You could say "I'm tired" or "I need to do my homework" or something. The fact is the pattern has been broken. When they lash out at you, the interaction slows down and dies off. That's the last thing they want. If that happens every time they lash out, they WILL stop.
Setting boundaries only works when you have the power to do so, and the other part of the equation is rational and capable of flexibility. Its even better when the other side of the equation has a therapist who has told them that you are the problem, and *they* need to make the boundaries.
thanks for explaining this. I think I've naturally evolved to a similar "strategy" recently, but just genuinely because I am becoming exhausted and weak. Being aware of this and able to know that it's actually beneficial and one of the only ways to combat this type of abuse, will help a lot and maybe help me to regain my strength while continuing to help diminish the abusive behaviours of my partner
This is so helpful when you are dealing with someone who would rather burn everything to the ground then bear the shame of self-reflection. Please do more on this!!!
less than a minute in and already mind-blown! about to cry lol all these years ive been blaming myself for not setting boundaries but you’re right, i didn’t hold power in the situations that come to mind thank you
That was SUPER enlightening. A lot of food for thought. As someone that has dealt with more than my fair share of manipulators (even those who don't think they are), that disassociation technique is pure gold. As soon as you take your emotions out of it, all the air is deflated and there's no kickback. It really does work in many (but not all) circumstances. Valuable stuff.
Was my 1st x watching your podcasts. Kind of speechless. This topic? Yes. 1000% yes!!! Guessed this intuitively and I have actually taken the tack of being “weak” in the past, not understanding that it was a process of extinguishing behavior. The initial reaction when I did it the 1st x was shock, but the 2nd time I basically said I was an idiot and I’d do better they screamed at me that I wouldn’t. Now I get it and I can sharpen that proverbial tool. As for the section abt emotion comes first and talks your frontal brain into it’s logic? That was brand new info…and man am I gonna use it!!! My god, thank you for your work!!!!
At the end of the day, if I have to EXPLAIN to a grown adult, how to be a decent human being who knows how to show people basic respect, I'm out. First time. I am too old myself to put up with that kind of nonsense anymore.
I struggle with this so much at work. Like with my dad or a rando I can just shrug it off and hang up/walk away, but with a boss? They usually end up using their power to make every day hell for me. They sure won't fire me but they will 100% find a way to take me off the schedule and really fuck up my income. So of course I get terrified trying to create boundaries with them. But this method makes so much sense to me and I will definitely take it to my next job. Thanks Dr. K!!
Literally the main phrase I use against bullies even when I feel like I'm the stronger individual in the situation is "Why bully?" or "Bully for what?". For me it immediately de-escalates the situation and they leave me alone. Just a piece of experience on the topic ^^
I can relate to all of this having suffered narcissistic abuse with a partner for 13 years and now my teenage child who has followed suit. I learned about all this through suffering until eventually I woke up realising the battle was lost before it even started. I know they get power trip and puff themselves up when you bite back. Everything this man said is absolutely true, listen to him! I wish I saw this video 15 years ago. I can now see when an attack is imminent and apply the techniques automatically, it gets easier when you do this consistently. Hope this helps someone
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How do you get rid of someone who can't leave you alone..like 5yrs..this person keeps trying to contact me. I just keep blocking whenever I add a new app..it's entitled (sick abuser mentality).
Also thank you for this Dr.K, I still deal with a toxic narc family so this is REALLY key. I am an older viewer so I do hope those in their teens, 20's and 30's listen to the key stuff you have given..it will benefit them immensely. 🙏
@@DiamondEyez456 I have experience with this. I had a boyfriend for 1 month. Amongst many issues, he was an alcoholic, a womanizer, and a professional liar. But it took me more than 5 years to make sense of all of it. He menaced me with jumping off a window, three times and then he hanged up the phone and didn't pick it up for hours. He followed me and my friends for 9 years. Messages and emails many times a year. I never decided to do anything in particular (like calling he cops), becouse I believed him wanting to take his life. I never went back with him or anything, but I let the "friendship" (I answered some of the emails, sometimes the phone) last many years out of fear.
I don't think he would have taken his life. He was just manipulating me in a dangerous and cruel way. My friends learned to laugh about this situations, maybe as a way to support me, because I got super sad when they told me he was at the same bar as them and he was stalking them the whole night. Finally I started to find it funny too. He was inlove with the idea of love in HIS life. Not about sharing something special. He is the heroe of his own movie in his mind.
He turned me into a price to win. He was excited about the chace, the hunt. Once social media became a thing big time, it was out in the open the image he had of himself. Once I saw him without listening to him, I understood.
I don't expect you to have a similiar experience as me, but maybe the differences will help you in your journey 💜 I wish you the best of lucks, and a clear mind 🙌
Read your bible! (KJV, preferably) ❤️🎉
Read your bible! (KJV, preferably) ❤️🎉
There’s a really weird echo on this ad.
I’m so glad to hear someone finally addressing this. Boundaries mean nothing if you can’t enforce them in any way
Not necessarily. If you don't have power to enforce them, you can still mentally hold onto them. I had an abusive alcoholic stepfather and my boundary was, "no man is ever going to hit me again." I couldn't enforce that boundary with him, but years later, when a boyfriend snatched my arm, I broke up with him. Later I found out that he had physically abused all of his previous gfs. Instead of that kind of behavior being normalized, I clung to that boundary and prevented myself from accepting that kind of behavior when I had the power to escape it.
This is so untrue, and a misunderstanding of what a boundary actually is. It is meant for you yourself to reinforce where you draw the line for what you are willing to do. It is not meant for you to enforce on others. You cannot control what other people do, you can only control how you react. Boundaries are about identifying healthy and productive ways to react to others in a way that you can communicate.
@@misspriss2482 so ur dad can still smack u?
@@terminaldeity it's not an either or, boundaries are both of these things
@terminaldeity a boundary could limit wht you will do, but I would argue that its also about what behaviour you will accept in regards to their treatment of you. We have a right to enforce certain treatment like" if a partner hits me, its over" or "im not going spend my time with people that claim to be my friends, but regularly exclude me and I fond our after the fact"
This is a technique I used for years to deescalate family arguments. My parents and sibling have a tendency to be overcome by anger and just escalate an argument no matter what I say or do, so I learned to shut down or remove myself from the situation entirely as my only way to shut down the fight. Unfortunately, after years of that habit working for me, it's now a defense mechanism that I am working to stop doing in my healthy relationships, because shutting down and running away is not a solution to an argument or disagreement that requires healthy communication. I'm sorry to anyone else watching this video that has to use this defense mechanism for survival :(
I feel you. Coming from an incredibly argumentative household that could never hold a proper discussion without breaking into shouting and button-pressing, I've finally gotten myself a healthy connection with my girlfriend. She comes from what I perceive as a perfect and completely unreal household, so she has a hard time understanding my feelings sometimes, since I never make any requests and I just immediately agree to many things before thinking about my own well-being.
As someone who was put into a family diffuser role at too young an age I feel this hard. Wishing you safety and health moving forward!
Same here. The worst is when they think your silent response to their anger means they said something right to anger you into silence. And continue hammering and then rope/spread to other family members / friends that you're in the wrong to perpetuate the behavior.
I'm glad you're around some people who value healthy, 2-way communication. It definitely gets a lot better with therapy specialized in trauma.
My ex-father is a quick temper anger, while my ex-mother is a quiet simmer anger. So much passive aggression too, sarcasm, negging (father would tell me "I'm a pretty good mechanic and driver for someone with a uterus, I'm surprised you got that driving job you're a terrible driver when I'm you're passenger!" 🙃 gee, I wonder why.. 🤔
I stopped talking altogether for 5 years because of my verbally abusive father. Only years later did I realize that all his problems where not my fault.
I wish my husband could have heard this ten years ago. His narcissistic father was also his boss and also his landlord. It was brutally gaslighting manipulation and guilt tripping all day every day. Only when his father started treating me that way, too, he started to see what's happening and we moved away, far away. I still remember how confused he was with how his new boss treated him, all friendly, and how weirdly relaxing it could be to live in a home that isn't barged in at random times by an abusive asshole in the middle of the night.
I'm glad you guys were able to move. ❤
Your husband's father sounds like a cartoon villain lol. Abusive dad, shitty landlord and power-tripping boss all rolled into one. I'm glad you guys were able to break away from his abuse💙
Wow, what a story! He clearly employed and housed his son for the ultimate control. Thank God yall got away!!!
He's lucky you were there. If he hadn't seen it happen to you he might have never saved himself or you both.
HOLY UNHEALTHY POWER DYNAMIC, that is ROUGH.
You're on to something here. People keep telling me to stand in my power with my narcissistic parents. I keep telling them it doesn't work that way with narcissists.
The goal of boundaries isn't for them... it's a boundary to protect you. How can you protect yourself? I think that's what Dr. K. Is saying here. Dealing with narcissists are scary abuse you cannot tell what they will do next and you also cant tell if they will become physical. So first and foremost, protect yourself.
That's why the boundary is to get them out of your life.
Just have multiple defences. Emotional defence andPhysicall defence and others. Learn also how to counter their attack. Do not be on defence all the time, they will break your defence. Learn also how to dodge their attack.
@@LTNyota exactly- if you defend yourself or criticise them they double down on the abuse.
A advise all children of narcissists to leave home as soon as you get a job (do university later not straight after school)
@LTNyota just don't give energy to things that seem like a waste of energy. This works with most things in life. Good luck with everything.
I learned this "roll over and blame yourself" strategy at a very early age do to an abusive household. Taking the fault, saying im the problem, and letting people "win" to avoid conflict... But as I grew into my teenage and adult years, this became a toxic trait of mine and I started to put down on myself and view myself as the problem. I said it so much that i believed myself to be the problem since other people didnt seem to have an issue with my "bullies" and family. I would even stop being competitive in video games when there was conflict. Now i struggle viewing fault when im in conflict with other because im quick to blame myself for the issues... So I have to remind myself what is fair with others should be fair to me lol... It's crippling on the self confidence.
I went through this…I got a tattoo saying I am enough and I’m constantly reinforcing positive self talk with affirmations and subliminals. I think it’s working. God Bless you on your journey 🙏🏼
@marylee7036 I'm pretty bad at positive self talk, but im working on it lol. Glad to hear someone is making it work for them. Hope haha. Stay strong and thank you for the positive reinforcement 🙏🏻.
Feel
You
You put yourself in to the scapegoat role.
I wonder is positive affirmations aloud over time would be healing since you recognize the reasoning to those feelings
I think this is like setting emotional boundaries within yourself. You don't tell them your boundaries, you don't try to get them to change. You don't offer them your emotional vulnerability or intimacy. You can't be that authentic with abusive behavior. Using these techniques will not result in a close living relationship, that requires vulnerability and authenticity, but abusive people are not healthy enough for you to be close too anyways. It's about giving up on the hope of having a close relationship with them and just trying to protect yourself from them.
Ahh! Thank you for this comment. You verbalized thoughts that've been stewing around in my mind.
But isn't that a boundary?
@@naomiuchiha0906yes, but as as was discussed in the video, it’s a boundary in disguise. You’re taking the weight of it on yourself.
How are you supposed.to.know if someone is or not if you've never set boundaries in the first place whats normal or healthy I couldn't tell the forest from the trees
@@psychodelic1457 I would highly recommend a good psychologist who specializes in trauma and works with Dialectical Behavioral Therapy (DBT), Acceptance Commitment Therapy (ACT), and possibly also does EMDR added onto one or both of those. Honestly, I just had to switch therapists and I did it through Zondermind, and I was amazed. I was easily able to find someone who did those therapies and was well-versed in ADHD and Autism. Companies like this really help to cut down on the process of finding one through calling individual offices and I get to do my therapy online as I had been doing. These therapies teach you coping skills and give you tools to process and work through things. There are three types of brain thinking or decisions making one is the Emotional mind where you are completely in your emotional brain, and can make very poor decisions because you are not considering any facts. There is the total logical brain/thinking and in this brain, you don't take any feelings into consideration and can make poor decisions not taking into mind your emotions or those of others. This can be very hurtful. Then there is the wise mind and this is a balanced thought process where you make healthy choices and decisions. These therapies teach you how to live in your wise mind, where you will recognize controlling, manipulative behavior, and know how to handle that person. These therapies will also help you to start a practice of mindfulness/meditation that has so many benefits. This isn't about just talking to a counselor about your feelings (emotional mind) but actually working to learn better coping skills.
Now, you may not be in a spot to be able to do this, but I would recommend looking up channels that teach you how to recognize narcissistic behavior and people. You can also do a lot of deep diving into DBT or ACT and do the mindfulness on your own and kind of educate yourself on what it is about. I know in the Autism community a lot of people don't have access to therapy, and will research into it and do as much as they can on their own till they can get to a point where they can work with a therapist. Also, I find that abusive parents and abusive husbands will pay for all the therapy you want if you tell them it is to "FIX" your broken *ss. Learn to work this technique he talking about, but first learn here on UA-cam how to recognize who is who. Hint: If you always walk away feeling like you can't do anything right, and you are a complete failure from someone in your inner circle. It isn't you honey, it is them! They are doing this to you to get what they want. They are manipulating you.
Sorry, my autistic brain loves to share what I have deep-dived into, and these therapies have totally helped me. I don't think I will ever stop going to therapy and learning more coping skills and keeping up with the coping skills I have learned.
Important caveat: make sure when you call yourself weak that you don’t start believing it
❤
then again, being a child to narcissists makes you weak, and its ok. its good to admit to oneself. "I'm weak. they didn't do the job, and this is the result." and have empathy and tolerance for oneself.
@@kathrine266 … No, actually. People who are children to narcissists aren’t inherently weak. Weakness and strength are concepts of domination, conjured by someone needing to feel superior, none of which aligns with reality … the only way to win that game is to fall out of the binary entirely. Did you watch the video?
The willful act of calling yourself weak is not actual weakness. What I’m pointing out here is that there is a danger to this strategy outlined in the video: The danger then becomes negative self talk and codependency. If you believe yourself weak you’ve clearly gotten it twisted and might start falling for the narcissist’s game again. In that case the need to escape the relationship becomes more urgent.
I’m sorry, but your comment comes across as someone who hasn’t had to deal with this IRL. There’s no “self-loving” your personal weakness while in a narcissistic mind game fighting for your psychological survival. Remember that weakness in this situation is ONLY in relation to the selfish desires of the other person. The victim in question could indeed be weak in the societal sense but are more likely not. If you are indeed weak, not just weak in the opinion of the narcissist (who is trying to foist their worldview into you) but objectively, forgiving yourself for being a weak person is something you do when you’re fully away from them and out of the situation. Empathy and tolerance for oneself can only be attained once a certain level of psychological safety is ensured.
So true. Was thinking the same. This comment should have more likes
That's exactly what happened to me. Did this for years and now if ever I feel any kind of need, I find it hard to express it without justifying and apologising for it. An if it gets denied, that's totally okay, because how silly of me to ask in the first place.
It's ridiculous.
It's insane to me how I never noticed before that guilt comes first making us feel like we did something wrong rather than vice versa.
Exactly on point
Right? Now that i look back, I recall times when I had done, (or earned), something that i was really proud of, but was immediately made to feel guilty or ashamed, because i was not willing to just hand it over to the golden child, when demanded. It really pulls the rug out from under your feet.
That is how you know you're being gaslighted....the quilt. And there wasn't anything that you had actually done wrong.
I wished Dr k talked about how to get rid of that guilt or self-gaslighting
Wow yeah that makes sense
The problem is abusive relationships don't ever get any better. You're not going to out-manipulate someone who spent their life learning how to manipulate people.
Not true, really. Watch Dr K on red flags and also I am an example of it too, manipulative people can and often are good folks but have badly stuck thinking and behavioral patterns. It's often possible to work it out together which will toughen the relationship.
Of course, some abuse isn't worth it and in some cases it's just safer to walk off soon.
Boundries are not manipulations. They are actions you take when people refuse to respect you. Not violence, not threats but changing your behavior or distancing.
@RippleDrop. I was in an abusive relationship and I don't appreciate people telling me that if I had worded my complaints differently my ex would have respected my boundaries.
@@theesotericman330 That's... Not even close to what they said. Not even in the same ballpark.
@@jessegauthier6985 Not even the same county
Wow, I'm 70 now and all my life I've had narcissistic & manipulative people, parents and people at work. I've always given them oxygen to bully me. I've finally got it. Thank you. Your explanation was so clear and informative. I recently went back to work and have a bully that loves to manipulate me. And I think I can get through the day with a clear mind and not be overwhelmed by them.
As I understand it, a boundary is not a request of another person. It's an "if, then" statement where the "then" is in one's own control. It's not, "Don't call me names." A boundary is more like, "If you call me names, I will leave immediately and not talk with you for 24 hours." And yes, it's quite difficult to do when you're a kid. But you don't have to tell the other person your boundary. You can say to yourself, "If you call me names, I will not engage."
That doesn't stop them from calling you nameso what's the point
@@debbiewilder4738 boundaries aren't meant to control other people. They will do what they want, but you have the choice of how you react.
@@debbiewilder4738because as an adult you can leave the situation. You don't have to sit there and take it. Boundaries are a gift you give to someone. If they refuse the gift, that person didn't give a fuck about you and so you should move on with your life. You're not going to change people, you need to know your limits so you don't stay in abusive situations.
@@kevinbissinger just like he said this works when you have power
If this is the new definition of “boundary,” then it isn’t a boundary, it’s just an emotional regulation technique. To most people, boundaries set bounds. This is why a border is called a boundary. And to address this whole “control” word, let’s be more specific. An effective boundary necessarily influences other people’s behavior. Some of the most effective and common relationship boundaries revolve around what constitutes cheating, which more often than not influences one or both partners’ behavior, simply out of mutual respect.
The power in setting a boundary at work is that you can quit. Believe me, the trauma of abusive bosses lasts way longer if you don't get out of that situation.
how many times can you quit
@@nancybartley4610 depends how many applications you’re willing to fill out, could be infinite relative to your available time investment
@@nancybartley4610 as many times as you deem necessary.
You have very limited time to live and experience the life you want to. Shit behavior, in any form, isn't to be tolerated. And in my experience, when it is tolerated it negatively impacts performance. I don't believe in working in miserable places, mind you, but If I can't work in an efficient environment I'm wasting my time.
As over the top as this may sound, every job is a stepping stone to something better. That's been my thought process and it has turned out a reasonably good resume over the years. I find VERY little finding work, but I can admit to you that I'm still not doing exactly what I want to. I'm just taking each step, altering course as necessary for each new hurdle and challenge on the way to doing what I want to.
(I'm sorry if this is dragging.) Literally as many times as you seem necessary to get where you need to be.
This isn’t just a work thing, usually.
Easier said than done when your economic situation is shit. Unfortunately.
Refusing to engage in a power struggle IS a way of having healthy boundaries. There are many ways of having boundaries that do not involve overt confrontation.
Yeah, I feel like he has a weird definition of what setting boundaries is. He even at one point says "if you hold the boundary but you don't blame them for it..." so he both acknowledged this is a boundary and also says it isn't?
@@GhostGlitch.It's kind of both. I think what he is saying is that it is a boundary but it's not an obvious boundary that the other person will understand to the point that they feel the need to cross it. It's like an invisible wall that is there, but the other person can't see it.
Omg I've never heard such a succinct explanation for why I avoided going into management at my old company
Exactly
@@evapunk522 I agree. The key word he leaves out is "set".
I think one of the biggest flaws with modern therapy is the inability to effectively identify and provide strategies to deal with interpersonal power dynamics. I'm glad to see HealthyGamer taking steps to resolve that
YES! It is a huge flaw! We go and do everything right but it fails because we aren’t given adequate tools and we feel like failures and blame ourselves 😢 It makes things worse
Hi, a retired psychotherapist here.
I like what you're saying about Don't Feed the Narcissist. And Yes. Boundaries are useless in that situation.
I also think there are alot of kids out there who survived their Narcissistic parent by making themselves smaller / weaker to the point of invisibility. Even to themselves. It's the line of least resistance. These kids don't have a strong positive sense of Self. By speaking words "I am weak, I'm sorry", while possibly a good immediate strategy for kids who with a strong enough ego, might dig the wounding deeper for a kid who says those words and believes them to be true about themselves.
I don't think that was your intention at all and it's still a good intervention...especially for teens and above.
I guess, I just missed you prefacing this strategy first by reinforcing the child's (or person's) inherent strength of Self. Even if it's been hidden from their sight by an overbearing parent. Even if the child can't see their own strength themselves...
Then explaining the passive strategy as a move of Strength.
The second concern I'd like to bring up is the tendency for some kids, who use passive resistance for years, to grow into passive aggressive adults.
Would love to know your thoughts on this.
Somewhere on 6th minute I remembered as adults told me to "just ignore bullies, do they'll get bored and leave you alone". And this still makes me absolutely mad. I remember myself in my elementary school screaming to my one mom: "What do you mean by 'irgore'? There is a full gang of boys bigger than me beating me! It's painful! Do you want me to not cry when I feel pain? Why don't you try to help me to get out of here?!". And my mom rolled her eyes and said: "It is all about setting up proper boundaries. You should learn to do it all right, overwise it will be all the same in any school and everywhere you go".
And that was total bullshit! Not all the guys get in gangs and beat girls and minors because they are physically weaker. Thanks god I haven't seen any man irl doing so since I moved out of our district. That was absolutely sick how normalized hate and agression were there. Now as adult I meet so many people, who grew up in better conditions, and their childhood stories sound almost too good to be true. And that's something I want to provide for my children, too.
P.S. Sorry for the long text, I needed to handle my emotions somehow.
To put it straight: if you found yourselves living in a 'charming' place, where people are beaten, robbed and raped on the streets - that's not a 'god-given opportunity for you and your children to become stronger'. You can learn to get along with these people (I did at the end), but this is a bad skill to learn. Just get out of there asap. These are your proper physical boundaries.
I feel this. My father would tell me to stand up to theme even though I know it would just escalate the situation in getting bullied more. It is not helpful.
Don't apologize for your post autree. I think it was good. :enting is good.
I hope you went no contact with your mother! That’s horrible.
That is so beyond messed up
Setting a boundary isn't to control other people; it's to understand when you yourself need to walk away from a situation.
Alot of the times you cant just "walk away"
@@kibowolf1153 that's when it becomes the biggest problem. That's what I'm working on right now. What to do when my boundaries are being violated but I can't walk away.
THIS!! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
@chrisdague5153 Blasting?
You mean, shooting??
That's exactly what he said at the beginning of the video. Boundaries are used to signal when you should walk away, but that only works when you have the power and capability to be able to walk away and still be fine independently. A child can't walk away from a parent, legally, and for survival reasons if they cross a line. A person who's been in a relationship for 5 years and has been worked in to a situation where their partner's income, who is 75% higher than theirs, determines whether they have a place to live or food to eat because that's been their structure since 6 months in to the relationship. An employee who is living paycheck to paycheck can't walk away from their job and become homeless because their boss crossed a line. Boundaries only work if you're entirely independent of every one in your life of whom a boundary can be applied to. They do not work on people who literally control fundamental necessities of your existence as a person in today's age.
Your boundaries don't even need to be out loud. To anyone. But you. Because you deserve your own respect.
YES
In a relationship , isn’t important to discuss certain boundaries that aren’t 100% obvious, or things that make you uncomfortable. How can you ever be in a good relationship if you never discuss boundaries and just expect people to mind read you?
@@jabbaryu5399 you teach people how to treat you. If somebody notices you leave the room, building, or eventually relationship anytime they raise their voice or cuss at you or disrespect you, eventually they might put 2 and 2 together and come ask you, "hey, how come you keep leaving the room when I get heated?"
Then, you have an opportunity to connect with them.
Otherwise saying things like, "If you swear at me, I'm leaving the room" or repeating those verbally before or instead of acting on your boundary behavior can come across as controlling or winning or nagging.
"Please stop yelling at us. I see this upsets you and those feelings deserve address, but can't we discuss this like rational adults? If not now, then I'll go take the kids to the park until we can cool out. All right?"
You don't need their permission to exit the room if you feel uncomfortable. And some difficult people will have a fit if you manage your own discomfort without discussing it with them first and then will use the opportunity to break you down.
Not everyone, but am I willing to take that risk with my time? Are you?
I'm not against giving a warning, like, "hey, I feel uncomfortable when you shout at our children because it makes you look unhinged and that's as sad as it may be comical, but it actually scares them and that makes me uncomfortable. So, to protect my own sanity without interupting you or undermining your parenting, I leave the room so I don't have to participate so I can set an example of strength by repositioning myself in the environment."
"If you hurt my ears that loud again, I'll leave the room. If it happens after that, I leave the house. If it still doesn't stop and becomes a pattern of how you manage difficult emotions as a grown up in our household, I think it may say something about either your character or the relationship patterns we are modeling and I reserve the right to leave the relationship until those can be worked out appropriately and maturely."
Because we can adult. And we owe kids the chance to learn how to do that peacefully.
So, I give a warming in real life especially to newer relationships but if I sniff out a pattern of difficult or offensive or manipulative behavior... I have a plan - not to control anyone else with my boundaries - simply to protect myself with them by minimizing contact with the person this tends to happen with or around.
I have learned coping skills like grey rock, yellow rock...and body language that can be helpful in the moment, like aiming my forehead at them when I talk to them or literally averting my eyes, standing shoulder to shoulder in conflict instead of directly across from them... But would rather avoid it if at all possible.
Boundaries are for you. They're not about trying to make or force the other person into submission to your will. It's not about winning. It's about peace.
If somebody argues with me to disagree because I don't like people swearing in front of my children and it has affected their lives negatively, I don't owe anyone an explanation and I certainly don't have to cow tow to the person cussing at us in order to defend my choice.
As an example, for instance.
I can make choices and decisions and act on them whether the other person agrees or not. ..their reaction in consideration for or against my feelings that swearing in front of children is wrong will say more about their character than mine.
They have a right to disagree. They can swear all day long in front of toddlers... But then they must reject the right to complain when the kiddies get kicked out of preschool or whatever for parroting the parental sailors' mouth.
Things that seem small to one person amd probably aren't a big deal in a room full of adults can really impact a child's life negatively in big ways so we might chose to adjust our behavior around them - or not.
I'm not going to sit for an argument in the moment to discuss it while I'm upset because I know I might escalate it by accident that way so I take responsibility for part by removing myself in stages to think things through once I've mellowed out.
You can only give so many warnings.
Pay attention to how somebody treats those warnings - is it with contempt? Aggrivation? Does it become a dominance challenge?
If so, this person may have a pattern of that sort of behavior or Inmay me inspiring that disrespect. I have to go check in with myself to check it out.
I don't need to have a fit while leaving or cause a dramatic scene. Sometimes quieter is calmer for me.
@@jabbaryu5399 a narcissistic relationship is NEVER going to be a healthy relationship. And if you are currently in one that you cannot leave - that’s what he is talking about.
I think I agree to that. My mother kept asking me every time I came home, whether I cleaned my hands. It annoyed me and made me angry, like, I'm an adult, not a child. I tried a lot of reactions, nothing stopped that cycle. Then one day it dawned to me: I shouldn't react at all to this. I should stay silent. No signal of any communication. Not a single one. I tried that - and it worked. She stopped asking. I think there is no deeper insight within her mind, but a result of forced adaptation: if no reaction feeds the cycle, the cycle "starves and dies".
Less clickbait title: "Boundaries can't save you from abuse"
You should absolutely set boundaries with people you trust and with whom you have built mutual respect
👍
He's not talking about people who have respect for you. That's the whole pointit's easy to set boundaries with people that love you
@@debbiewilder4738 I know that's what he's talking about. The title is still clickbait though
Thank you for that comment. I already thought that something like that will be in the video. 😊
Thanks for saving my time. I hate clickbait.
Finally, someone understands why I could not stop what some abusive people do.!!!
I am sick of being blamed by ignorant people who say I do not try hard enough,
The "being weak" strategy has a counter, unfortunately. They will punish you for being weak and call it "tough love", something like, "I love you so much I don't want you to be weak, therefore I will help you by toughening you up with punishment". Then if you try to tell them you don't want to be punished, they will go back to plan A of beating you down for disagreeing with them.
I think the point is to be weak but also remove yourself from the situation. Don't confront them so that they don't come back at you, but also appear weak enough so that they don't feel threatened by you. I think he should have been more clear about that, but I guess the "hanging up the phone" thing was the only thing he mentioned. This can be something tough tho when it's a parent or a spouse because they are intrinsically linked to you.
I recognized this in my own family. I just started grey rocking them and not showing emotion anymore. Of course I grief the relationship we could have but I know they are not capable of it
From my experience, people like these tend to try and acquire as much information about their victims as possible. If they have prior knowledge of you being strong, they will attempt to figure out whether that is still the case usually through questioning, interrogation, or a less direct method. If the transition seems natural enough even after you're tested, there will be a lot less punishment for being weak. In other words, you're essentially tricking them into believing it's a natural change rather than deliberate avoidance.
yes there are a couple things missing. I have found that if I have some degree of power and protection--say in a large group with a bully sibling--having a strong boundary makes me very unrewarding as a target. It says I am strong and I can back this up. If there is no other support around and with someone who has more power I need to fawn and get out of there. But I am very careful to not be in any way reliant on the bullies in my family or too close or exposed to them. What is missing here is when the abuser is your partner and they are a coercive controller intent on taking away your power and freedom (not just feeling an ego boost) with threat of serious harm if you don't give them what you want. These techniques won't work there. In such person the person may need to acquiesce to survive until they can safely flee.
These are good tips for everyday toxic behavious with people who want to put you down and who gaslight and who you can get away from..but not for serious DV, I value the insights about guilt.
Unfortunately, you have to keep using the "weak" excuse and then quickly exit. Don't stick around for more manipulation and abuse. This may result in ultimate discard by the abuser, but this therapist is right, it's the best way to avoid more damage to yourself.
My mom would use manipulative guilt tactics on us from a very young age and shut down our ability to fight against her. Nothing feels approachable with her due to the crocodile tears. If there's a problem you will always walk away feeling like you did something very wrong.
This seems to me more common then I thought growing up.. seems quite a few mothers do that. A friend of mine in university had it real bad to the point where her mother closed herself away at Christmas for the entire 2 days and cried behind the door and blamed it on her or put her in the car and drove by Burger King and told he that’s her future.. soul crushing shit. But she explained me she learned her mother is a narcissist and the moment she understood that she can’t help her she lost all feelings of guilt and freed herself of all the bad feelings
My narcissist stepdad would do that but instead of tears he would use rage.
Sorry about that, me too.
it's like we have the exact same mom ☠️ are you sure we're not related or something?
but for real though, wishing the best for you and hope you stay safe out there!
My narc mom insulted me during a family event in front of all of my relatives insulted to filth, put allegations on me while everyone else believed her, she successfully isolated me from the rest of my family. Even if they'd believe me in the future they'd try n stay away rather than getting in my messy family situation. For 12 straight days I felt numb
Something else to remember is that you have to get away from the dynamic or you risk being gaslit. The longer you stay in an abusive dynamic, the more normalized the boundary violations become and you can't easily know what is or isn't on you. For example with a healthy parent the relationship is mutually give and take so you have to give in to some things and so does the parent. With a toxic parent they push the line of normalcy so far that you might think you have to clean the entire house just to do your duty as the child as to not be ungrateful.
Only by getting out and forming healthy relationships can you learn healthy boundary dynamics. If you don't, you risk entering new relationships with all of the same problems that have become your normal.
if u a kid you better do what your parents tell u if not you can get on up outta there into the foster care and good riddance lol. 😂
@@abel6298 This generation today knows nothing of it. They chose rebellion and man fulfilling purpose, and look where it gets em - mass mental health decline, weakened soul and body, rotten in sin. You tell them to read a Bible and they look at you with hatred and contempt. Cursing their own parents, no structure or order - all of this has been prophesied and they dont even know it. What a time.
Thank you, this comment is a good reminder ❤
@@firerams_and_arisinglion Your comment is completely irrelevant to the topic of conversation right now.
@@diego032912 that person is a troll. There's no point in engaging them, the only thing they want is attention
Distancing yourself from a toxic situation does work. I went away from a toxic environment when I was 23 and my life got so much better. At 37, I had to come back and help out with my family, so I’m back in the same environment that made me go away in the first place. Needless to say, in a year time I went from being balanced and relatively happy to being depressed, constantly anxious… I gained 25 pounds and had to start taking medication for the first time in my life.
Don’t come back guys. Find other ways to help out and keep yourself out of toxic situations. You can’t win.
This feels like what I've been doing. Always bending.
Result: my needs have never been met, I never receive any care.
Why didn't I fix this as an adult? Because I never learned to be any other way. I didn't know there was a choice. No one told me. Now this is hard-wired and my inability to speak up for myself ensures that my needs are still not met to a degree that I'm disabled.
I'm trying to change it, but after 40 years of owning my weakness and being abused, I can seeminly only have one kind of relationship with other people - one where I express zero needs and cater to their every whim.
But you can change it. I did, am also in my 40s
Mother is a narc, so is sister, so is husband.
I didn't even know self care was a thing.
UA-cam has taught me everything 😂
Even just making your bed when you wake up is self care because you're don't something nice for your future self, later that day.
The best way it was explained to me was, how would you tell your friend to be, or how would you treat your friend in a situation .. then do that for you. Start small.
My big first step was using face cream every day. That's how much I was neglecting myself. Not even face cream... wasnt combing my hair every day..
Trust me, if I can get out of that, anyone can
Can't believe the scenario fits my parents exactly! Except I chose not to react - at all. When the crocodile tears, accusations, high-pitched yelling, insults flying, I just chose to keep quiet. After 3.5 years, they've kinda given up with the attack, though it still comes up from time and time again - but I just keep real quiet and look blankly at them. And after a long pause, I will find my way to get out of the situation. Interestingly, to them, it's as though those confrontations never happened, and they just went on their merry ways. I have zero clue how they can function so brokenly in society, but it's on them and not on me, so yeah, whatever - and more focus on me, myself and I. It's weird but it's true - I don't get it too, but that's the only way I can change my circumstances since I can't change the parents
It’s so insane to me that people act like that to others and don’t think twice. They see your reaction, any normal healthy person would recognize that and connect the dots. But no.
Hope you're able to keep your spirits high still, I know it can be very taxing on your self esteem and wellbeing being in that situation.
@@mandomavicus3616 I'm surviving and trying to find my way to live. Everyday is a new day for me, though I do have my low days, and also worse days. Especially coming from an Asian family and being an only child... The only compromise is I cannot move out the house. So I find my peace and balance elsewhere instead 😊
thats awesome, i have a brother like that but for some reason i keep trying to react and try to change him naively, keeping quiet is so hard cuz im afraid i will actually let their accusations and insults sink into me and make me actually believe all that.
I did/do the exact same thing to my parents, I have tried standing up for myself and when I do I just see how completely lost they are. When I hit 20 I signed up for an academy on the other side of country without telling them, within a week of them finding out I had already moved out and now I basicly only see them at Christmas, Aaand they still pull the same crap on me. My advice would be to just keep ignoring them 3:
I think it's important to re-iterate (as Dr. K did several times) that setting boundaries isn't *always* a bad choice. It's just that we need multiple tools in our toolbox to deal with different kinds of situations. Setting boundaries works when the other person is reasonable, invested in the relationship, and you have the ability to remove yourself from their presence, as this gives them an opportunity to show you that they care and keep you in their life. If they don't care, then a boundary is just another way for them to show you that they don't care. Boundaries are for those we respect and who intend to respect us back.
isn't what he describes also a boundary? I'm not going to tolerate this and use these tools to keep my peace of mind at the cost of not having a relationship with this person. (Outwardly, you have a relationship, but you don't actually have a relationship)
I followed my dad's advice to always hit bullies back when they hit me. Always worked. You don't need to be stronger than them, they don't need to be reasonable. You just need to be an unrewarding target.
@@simontmnYeah it is weird he never mentions the good old fashion power of hitting someone when it comes to bullies.
@@simontmn I stopped doing that because it always got me in more trouble than it got the bullies in, so they just kept bullying me because it hurt me a lot more than it hurt them and they knew that.
@@FlameUser64 hugs🤗
The problem with this is that playing weak just encourages a lot of narcissists to keep walking all over you. My wife did that and ended up getting walked on so many times that she started believing she couldn't defend herself. When she got out she ended up having to abandon that tactic and set hard boundaries with them. I think what's described here has a valid place as a delaying tactic until you can escape but isn't a viable longterm strategy.
It only works short term eventually they notice you're just playing dead and since they're not getting their fuel they Amp it up to like 11 it takes a LOT of energy and strength and strategy to deal with these demons
Yeah, you have to test the waters. Establish your own personality. Back off on anything that gets too much push back, but don't let it go.
There needs to be more help available on how to handle abuse you can't currently escape from.
I would also not try that at work. You can't hang up on your boss (or even colleagues) without consequences.
If you find yourself stuck with a narcissistic boss/coworker, polish up your resume, maybe watch some videos on how to best do that, and get out as fast as you can.
I understand that's not possible for minors (children) of narcissists, but ... hang in there until you're old enough to leave, then leave.
There are some other problems with playing weak with a narcissist as well. Like you said, many will take that as an invitation to walk all over you. And if it's a really smart narcissist, they'll figure out ways to manipulate you even more.
E.g. "Oh, I'm so sorry to hear you're not doing well. Are you sure, then that you're up to going on that vacation you were planning to have? Best stay home and I'll take care of you. We can do all kinds of fun things!" ... and you just know that "fun" means doing your least favorite things and now that's how it will go.
I don't think there's the one strategy to rule them all.
Some narcissists can be subdued by fighting them head on, some can be manipulated by fake praise, some feed off the weak (and pretty much leave their victims alone once they've drawn some blood), some fade when you ignore them ... and so on.
For my own life, I have zero tolerance for narcissists. Easiest to deal with them by not dealing with them at all.
I think it would work as long as it needed to. Obviously, it’s not a great environment to be in, but it’s inevitable for some. Think about intelligent women of the past. Many accomplished their goals through manipulating the men around them. They couldn’t leave, so they absolutely would use this strategy long term
15:25 I heard a nun explain guilt and shame. She explained that guilt is a fact, shame is the feeling. So they do confession of guilt (the fact) you don't live in shame.
Thank you for making these videos available to every one for free. This one really helped me.
I have toxic family. I separated from them almost entirely in my mid-20s. It came as a shock when I started setting hard boundaries. I gave them Ultimatums such that if they were disrespectful, hostile, or otherwise toxic (at my discretion) I would cease contact without guilt. They pulled insults, guilt trips, everything you can think of. I cut one of them off entirely and the rest took those boundaries as serious as a heart attack. We dont talk often but when we do it's completely fine now.
Exactly you can’t change ppls personalities. Only they can do that. All you can do is separate yourself..
My boxing coach always told us that we should only fight people who we consider equals.
Fighting people who are much weaker is dishonourable and fighting people who are much stronger is foolish
So true. Here's why people who do sports, especially contact sports, martial arts often have their mind and emotion i order.
I was a fool then
Obviously it's not that boundaries don't work, it's being intelligent about how you do it. Understanding that you can do it in a way where you are not joining with a person in a power play, ego play, toxic dynamic. There's a term 'grey rock' used when removing yourself from a narcisistic person where you basically give them NOTHING to feed on or feed into. Boundaries are a healthy thing, you just do it intelligently.
yup
This is awesome! It is actually what I started doing in my former long term toxic relationship, and I agree with all of these steps! I carried a lot of false guilt, and realizing that brought me so much freedom! I “set boundaries” exactly as you describe as being the “weak one”, and he didn’t have a leg to stand on this way. He may even have started to pity me, and back off some. Luckily I found my strength over time and am completely out of that 30 year marriage. Thank you so much for bringing the truth about boundaries into the conscienceless of all of us ❤
It’s really nice to be out of this exhausting mind game.
This is an incredibly useful video for anyone going through bullying, since bullying is so common, I hope anybody going through it watches this...
True, setting boundaries doesn't work all the time, I've met very abusive people and I've always thought of boundaries as a waste of time in my case. When you set boundaries, you have to tell other people the things that disgurb or trigger you in order for them to avoid them. Problem is, when you tell your weaknesseto abusive people, you are giving them a weapon to hurt you. So I barely tell my parents about my fears and dreams anymore, they have this idea of educating through fear and they tend to shatter my dreams. Both wanted to control exactly what kind of friends I had, so I ended up not telling them about my friends at all, I don't even mention their names, I know they might take them away from me.
Wow I can’t relate to this. Thanks so much for sharing. I feel less alone.
Except what in effect what he says is that you SHOULD set boundaries because YOU need them to avoid getting hurt or injured as a human... the whole difference is in the way you uphold them.
He is not telling people to give away their real weaknesses. You have to tell them something you are strong enough from inside, Weak on the outside only.
Hey random internet person who personally is going through this very thing depending on how your parents react you've really got two options here. You can do what you're doing rn which is basically "grey rock" not giving them any response that challenges them just agreeing even if deep down you think they're wrong. Personally that didn't work with my N parents what worked best is taking what ammo they know hurts(commenting on my appearance or abilities) and agreeing with them. This isn't for everyone and took me a VERY long time but when I know they're trying to make me feel lesser agreeing with them and watching them die inside from me not giving them their fuel has given me a lot of power you could also just completely avoid them as much as you can but I find it triggers their ego usually.
I think this entire thread has revealed that people don't know what boundaries are. An example of a boundary is, "I don't enter/stay in relationships with people who cheat on me." That's something that I have set for myself. I don't have to tell my partner that cheating is a "boundary" for me. When we discussed the terms of our relationship, we agree to be monogamous, and that is it. I don't have to talk about the consequences of them cheating on me. Zip, zilch, nada.
If that person cheats on me, I refer back to my boundary in my head, and then I exit the relationship. I don't have to say a single word to the person. I have never directly communicated that cheating was a deal-breaker. The only thing that I've ever communicated to that person is that my standard for the relationship was fidelity. I don't have to express to them how I handle their failure to meet the standard set forth in the relationship.
Your job isn't to broadcast your boundaries. In fact, when you do that people are going to challenge you. You can communicate your needs. "Hey, in a relationship I expect fidelity, loyalty, no cheating, ect." The person can then agree to meet your needs or not. You don't have to reveal any of your psychological trauma or emotional ticks or triggers, in order to communicate your relationship needs, requirements, standards, or expectations.
Thank you for talking about this! When I was trying to learn cognitive behavioral therapy, and being assertive, my narcissist family HATED it. I got into an even more unstable situation because of it, that eventually led to homelessness
I ish you all the best, and most of all, warmth that you probably never got.
..So they couldnt get to you anymore and decided to kick you out?
@@dualshock3
Hmm, not really. It's hard to explain... They would suggest that I find a way to support myself faster, or I would have to look into homeless shelters. I have ADHD, and would explain that I needed help, and time, but they would just not make any accommodations, or believe that I needed them. It got so hard to do anything with my home being threatened so often, that I ran away. Only to struggle to support myself, until I was homeless and couch surfing for 4 months. So in a nutshell, me trying to ask to be treated better was the reason I ended up homeless for a time.
I worked hard and got lucky, so now I'm in a much better situation, and I no longer speak to my parents
@@whiteseacrafts3342 you not talking to them is a boundary. you don't have to say "I'm not gonna let you do ____" but separation/ ignoring them is a boundary.
You might now reconsider your previous suggestion that borderlines aren't that bad. Dunk on narcissists all you like, but compare the diagnostic criteria of NPD vs. BPD in the context of maintaining healthy boundaries. The very concept immediately runs up against the fear of abandonment and so on down the line.
Of course narcs don't like being told they are wrong, but explosive anger isn't one of their diagnostic criteria. Plus, narcs have a strong interest in doing what benefits them most, whereas borderlines are just as happy to self-harm and impulsively self-sabotage just to be contrarian and defiant while angry and splitting.
Thank you for this. I recently experienced exactly this with an old friend with whom I recently tried to set a boundary for the first time. The manipulative side in her came out hard and when I held my ground and refused to be manipulated she blew up the relationship and blamed it entirely on me. It was really disappointing. It's extra tricky because she's got a health condition that has unpredictable cognitive impacts, and it makes it that much more complicated to discern what behaviors she can control (and shouldn't make excuses for) and what she genuinely can't. Setting boundaries without guilt when the other person does have a genuine physical/mental constraint is really tricky.
True, but as someone whos nerodivergent with somebody who has a lot of disorders that make emotional regulation hard, she has to learn to account for that, you can be understanding, but unless she is actively learning herself how to navigate and deal with her feelings as much as she's possibly able to, as is her responsibility, you shouldn't feel bad for cutting her out of your life.
Yes, discernment between narcissistic behavior and neurodivergent tendencies can be difficult.
One thing that I learned from Dr.Ramani’s channel (highly recommend) is that if an inappropriate behavior is stemming from neurodivergent tendencies, and the person comes to understand that it was inappropriate, an expression of apology is usually forthcoming. While if the inappropriate behavior stems from narcissistic tendencies, and the person comes to understand (or already knew) that it was inappropriate, a denial usually ensues…an explosion or a flipping of the situation to remove blame from themselves. A refusal to accept responsibility for the behavior.
It's really tricky. I had a friend who got diagnosed with ADHD and uses it as an excuse/cover for her behavior (in confusing other people, dismissing others' feelings, and jumping to conclusions). I once confronted her about it and she exploded and shifted the blame onto me by saying how I needed to ask more questions (to "handle her ADHD better" when she failed to inform me about it - we see each other once a year)
Luckily, I had a response to that. I countered with a list of facts that I did ask questions, they just didn't listen and dismissed it. She got real quiet, real fast. And then just self-deprecated herself and said it's her ADHD to absolve herself of any responsibility. I get she feels bad that she can't help it or she feels frustrated about her ADHD, but there was never any words about "I'm sorry that you got hurt from my behavior."
The focus was always on her and her ADHD, no room for other people. Almost like she was always the victim. Zero responsibility. And zero attention to other people's feelings.
That's not ADHD, that's her being self-preoccupied... Maybe lack of social skills, but all that is learn-able, so quit using the ADHD as a cover for something else that's lacking and for not working on those things. It's giving ADHD people a bad rep.
@@AsianCurls I feel you! It’s rough.
The ADHD aspect needs gentle understanding, non-shaming support, and a “let’s see in what alternative way we could make this work” type of friend.
But the not-ADHD part, the denial of responsibility, the blame shifting, that is something different. That makes things difficult.
Read your bible! (KJV, preferably) ❤️🎉
Isn't the purpose of boundaries mainly internal? I was raised in a narcissistic family as the sometime "clown" sometime "emotional garbage can" for the narcissists, and sometime scapegoat. I was conditioned to not have boundaries, and I did not understand what they were or how to develop them. Learning to look within myself as an adult, and find my own boundaries, was a very important thing for me to understand and do. My boundaries are for me, to guide my decisions, to help keep my life in balance, to keep myself safe from abuse and abusers. Boundaries have saved my mind and my life. I am not going to help abusers feel superior by "playing weak". It's not my concern or my problem to help an abuser. I am not about controlling someone else, and I am not going to play games with others because there is no "winning" with a narcissist or abuser. The only way to win is to not engage. For kids with narcissistic parents it sucks because our society offers no support for them. They have to survive, as best they can, until they can escape their parents. We should change this and give them support instead, but I am not holding my breath.
I've never thought that having a boundary required that you be either assertive or confrontational. What you are describing still sounds like setting boundaries to me, but choosing to do so without engaging in a battle about it. I've always felt that my boundaries were completely about me and my limitations. That's how I have always presented it, because it really has nothing to do with them. I cannot handle the behavior being presented in this moment with the number of spoons I have available. That's a boundary. When we make it about them, it becomes confrontational and often leads to fighting.
So glad you brought up narcissists right at the beginning! Boundary setting does not work with these people. I have the misfortune of being stuck living with one. You cannot set a boundary with them and expect them to just respect it, even moreso if they have something “over” you.
“I don’t want to talk about that” means they’ll keep bringing it up because they KNOW it’ll bother you and they feed off making you angry/upset.
“Don’t touch me” means they’ll find any excuse to do so, “”accidentally”” or not. I’m starting to find it very funny to “starve” narcissists’ reward pathways. Never let anyone tell you you’re weak for “shutting down” on these people.
It is OK to be angry with our parents. And never let them meet your children.
Thank you. I feel like a freak sometimes.
But my parents are nice 🥺
@@Intensive_Porpoises Go thank them
@@firerams_and_arisinglion For you, maybe not, but that's the singular way to approach a situation. Other life experiences need to be considered, along with the different operations of other people.
Considering your UA-cam name, however, it's not at all surprising why you'd feel it's not ok to be angry with your parents, especially when fear is the motivating factor into why it's mandatory to obey them. It becomes even more pronounced when you look at them as your parents and your equals. This core interaction shapes all other interactions.
@@firerams_and_arisinglionhow is having more options bad? Sure it can be a lot of work to decide what path you want to do down, but it allows you to pick the best choice for yourself.
7:00 People often call it stoicism or emotional distance or mindfull stillness, but I've never heard someone refer to this behaviour/ state as the "crappiest lootbox in the universe". It's brilliant, a perfect metaphor and obviously a perfect translation of the meaning behind the older terms for a gamer audience.
I love it, you're amazing Dr. K! :)
I think it is even better, because rather than being a state of mind (which can be difficult to control), it is clearly actionable.
This is so GOOD !!! finally some one not repeating the same old tropes over & over " set boundaries" bla,bla..you are so right if we cant escape the narc & have no leverage we need to use covert tactics..thank you Sir🙌🏽👍🏽💥🔥🖤💖
Thank you so much for being this real! it is beyond helpful and comforting to have someone just acknowledge how overwhelming dealing with a narcissistic parent or a situation of no power..
However, don't use the "be weak" too literally.
do not victimize yourself or be exaggerating with it but only let go of blaming or fighting (any action that insinuates feelings of hate). and do your actions from love. You do not need to get it back from them, you will get it from yourself and the unlimited inner peace you will feel when you do it.
Setting healthy boundaries is not for the purpose of getting people to respect you, it's about respecting yourself enough to set a boundary that essentially requests others treat you with the same respect that you treat yourself and them with, and then making a decision about how to move forward with that person in your life based of how they react to your boundaries.
That only works if they can’t beat the crap out of you, fire you, or take your home or children away.
@@jaynebarry5658 yes of course it only works if you’re not tied to them in those ways, unfortunately.
Thank you! My therapist tries to help me by suggesting boundaries, but it's not that simple. I'm just not aggressive enough to clap back or hit the breaks on the people that are dogging me at home. I'm not weak, I'm just tired. I've had a hard childhood, adolescence, and at 34 I feel like I don't have that kind of energy.
Tired and exhausted is exactly, I relate to what you said about a chilhood effects level of energy.
It takes a lot of practice to be assertive. I’ve been in this inferior/superior power dynamic with my dysfunctional disordered family for my lifetime, I tried to put in boundaries but they got abusive and after a couple of years of that BS I’ve minimised contact to almost nothing - they tricked me the other week regarding health- I wouldn’t return a call because my dads voice message was aggressive so they got in touch with my daughters father (we broke up over 20 years ago). I also find it hard to think when I’m emotionally overwhelmed, being abused - my sister does lawyer mode demanding “evidence” and rapid fire accusations, screaming that sort of thing. I’m 43 and I’m so exhausted. Engaging is just not worth it. Trying to be assertive with healthier people and situations that are just saying no. Take care.
I'm exactly on the same spot.
The trick is to distance instead of engage. Don't react to whatever they throw at you unless it's sure to put them in their place. Walk with a smile on your face. They try to do damage chances are they do it out of a position of weakness. Laugh at them for it. Show them how ineffectual they are.
Show them how pathetic they look. If they feel pathetic they will inevitably back off because that's the last thing they want to feel.
This is priceless advice for dealing with power dynamics and narcissists. I wish more therapists actually addressed how to handle being in a less powerful dynamic.
What is suggested in this video IS setting boundaries. Boundaries are not about controlling or attempting to control someone else's behavior, nor is it about blaming or calling them out. It's about being clear within yourself [and ideally communicating to others] what you need and/or what you will not tolerate. Others get to choose how they behave and you take action accordingly. Non-Violent Communication is a great book to read that provides solid tools to communicate and relate with others while maintaining appropriate boundaries. That being said, I agree that boundaries are not very functional in situations involving children as they are dependent on the adults. But they can work very well between adults.
Thank you for acknowledging the lack of power in relationship and validate the need for different measures
“Boundaries only work if you have power” TRUER WORDS EVER SPOKEN!!!. I have used the “pretend being weak” strategy out of survival and it really works!!! I have zero power to back any boundary so I had to pretend I agree with my bullies and took blame (while knowing they are the ass*oles).
Disagree. Choosing to disengage is taking exercising power over the sitting over a situation.
@@ineedhoez Agreeing is disengaging
Totally agree..."Be like water" is my go-to strategy. I'm in my 3rd situation where I have very little power (1. mother of an infant, 2. immigration visa sponsored by an individual who used that fact, 3. my current situation where there are 2 people who feel they have the power to terminate my employment at will).
Even if the other person tries to make it my fault for not setting healthy boundaries (the most recent tactic), all I can do is apologise for not being able to set those boundaries effectively without their help.
@@MNkno “Be like water” I like that!
@@ineedhoezAnd if you can't disengage?
Doctor Ramani actually introduced me into the idea of the DEEP "dont't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize"
If you have no authority over toxic person's presence in your life - this is a great rule.
It's like the expression "don't feed the troll." Why are they attacking you? To upset you. That's their GOAL. If you don't react that way, if you just say "ok," then they failed. If they keep trying and it keeps failing, then inevitably they will adapt and change their behavior, since its not working anymore.
Ironically, these are boundaries.
Yet another super valuable, high-quality video, although I can’t help but think that there needs to be a part two to this that emphasises the need to unlearn these behaviours when they’re no longer necessary. I can imagine many children of narcissistic parents adopting these strategies initially as benign survival mechanisms, but then continuing to utilise them automatically after they’ve gained more power in their relationships and ultimately (and unintentionally) becoming manipulative narcissists themselves. I think it needs to be clearer in the video that this is not a permanent solution ideally, and you should really strive to escape or gain more power in these relationships as soon as you realistically can, and to monitor your behaviours across your relationships and consciously re-learn boundary setting as you do.
Yes, I was thinking the same thing actually. I wondered how you can go about using this strategy without internalizing the habit of always blaming yourself without taking responsibility, which seems like a pretty toxic response in a healthy situation.
To add, I remember Dr K commenting on stream once that a lot of the posts in the r/raisedbynarcissists subreddit are ironically written very narcissistically. There are some patterns of repeated, inter-generational trauma that I see discussed a lot, particularly regarding severe abuse, but I rarely hear much about the subtler (and probably more common) forms of toxicity that can be passed down and repeated via maladaptive coping mechanisms, e.g. a neglected child who learns to be ego-centric to make sure that their own needs are met, but who then grows into a narcissistic and neglectful adult in turn.
I’d be really interested to hear Dr K talk about any specific examples like this that he’s seen frequently in his practice, how to recognise our own red flags if those situations ring true for us, and how start the process of course-correcting for each specific issue so that we can to stop the cycle and become better humans
I agree with this! I had to kinda catch myself to remind myself that this prob isn't good long term. It's definitely a decent option for those emergency situations, and I wish I had known more about this in the past when I was in a bad living situation with a narcissist (happened to be a child of a narcissistic parent, she ranted about everything her horrible mother did to her and she did nearly all of those things to me herself). It's useful, potentially life saving, esp as I was in the situation he talked about at the beginning where the other person freaked out at me setting boundaries in a healthy way several times. But also not a good habit to be in long term
Keep in mind that Dr. K develops these starategies with his patients. I guess they will pay attention that this will not become a habit and used only temporarily and with awareness. Still the risk can't be denied.
@@minolaki5956 I'm not sure that can automatically be assumed. But it can definitely not be assumed for his viewers, and since he's sharing the strategies here, it would be good to address it here in any case
"Click"
"Walk out the door"
... yeah, that's not always possible
I wish he gave examples using text messages. So much communication is via text now. You can’t “walk away” from a text or “hang up”
@@lindsayblestwould ghosting work? Simly not replying, putting down the phone/closing the app and never returning to that topic again?
You can mute the conversation, or temporarily block their number.
Dude! This message needs to get out there. Your insights and delivery are amazing! Thank you for sharing this clarity with me and the rest of the world.
This is genius. Dr. K seems to always have a different approach than other therapists on youtube, and it always makes so much more sense.
Deciding not to talk to or engage with boundary *is* a boundary. You don't have to say "I'm not gonna let you do ____" but separation/ ignoring them is a boundary.
@@Heyu7her3I'm glad I did that. Was wondering maybe should tell them but I am on the right track 😊
@@Heyu7her3 Disengaging a behaviour isn't engaging a behaviour. You assumed the consequent by falsely predicating it upon engagement, which is a false cause fallacy.
Furthermore you affirmed the consequent (fallacious form of a Modus ponens) meaning your reasoning is unsound, if a then b, a therefore b is valid. A then b, b therefore a isn't sound reasoning.
So glad you touched on this. Often times we see a lot of victim blaming when it comes to abuse. It’s only possible to set boundaries when you have power to begin with.
As a therapist that works with kids and teens, I wish more people understood the very simple and very real truths in this video.
Thank you, Dr K, for this insight into the narcissist's mind. I've had to endure it for 3 decades, and it's now broken my entire body (but that's another story on its own).
While I agree with almost everything you've said in this video, I have since developed a different approach on how to deal with a narcissist now that I know their behaviour through and through.
My approach is the "riposte". It's not an easy technique to develop and use, but if executed perfectly, it will shut the narcissist down within seconds. In short, you have to outmanoeuvre the master manipulator (narcissist). Never instigate, but retaliate (non-violently) and shut their shit down.
I don't know if you'll have the time to see my reply, but I figured I'd put this on here anyway to help others out if they've had to live with a narcissist all their lives. Cheers.
- S.K. Guna
It really comes down to self love.
I was angry and got depressed. At one point I'd had it and I yelled out all the hurt I'd been feeling, at home with myself. I immediately felt better and stronger in myself.
What I realised the emotion was telling me was: That was not ok. I won't be treated badly. I deserve better.
Thinking clearly is highly important to notice ones own intentions boundaries and others intentions boundaries.
Thereafter it's noticing the energy dynamic. People usually communicate in emotions underneath all the talking.
Love yourself. Be mindful of intentions, and notice the energy in the interaction.
Think clearly. Use logic to assess if an emotion us justified or not, but always always always acknowledge the emotion, then dissect it.
No it doesn't. People will still abuse you .
This feels uncomfortable for me. My dad did this to convince my mom he was too weak and pathetic to be held accountable. He recoiled and cried. He would apologize and say that he just wasn’t a good parent and that no one could love him. Which made it our job to regulate his emotions.
Sounds like your dad was creating the manipulative behavior. He created an unloved persona because you and your mother unintentionally reward him with "love and attention" through guilt. I'm sorry you and your mother had to go through that. I hope you can make use of this video to avoid such situation in the future.
Its the same as weaponized incompetence.
Good God. I'm sorry you had to deal with such a pathetic person for a parent. That sort of thing in particular is repulsive to me.
Sounds like covert narcissism.
difference is, he still had power over you both. he didnt do this to get out of your abuse, he did it to abuse you more
I did this when growing up with my abusive family. Didn't realize it was a legit tactic, but it did help in most cases. Things only escalated as I became independent and stood up for myself "properly." Properly meaning I would set boundaries, posture, hold my ground, and be willing to throw my own punches.
These are all boundaries.
I love how people wave the flag of "facts don't care about your emotions" (which is not a false statement but only half of the reality) while at the same time there is this extremely strong and extremely unconcious mechanism of "my emotions don't care about facts" :P
I’m privileged enough to be in a situation where I can set healthy boundaries in every aspect of my life. Still this was a very informative video and I hope I remember the basics of this moving forward. Thank you for constantly sharing your experiences
THANK YOU. The power differential is EVERYTHING. It absolutely blows my mind how many people in my life can't understand when they are making demands of people who CAN'T SAY NO.
Thank you @HealthyGamerGG This really hit home! When you're the scapegoat kid, and barely allowed boundaries, it can be especially difficult to protect one's boundaries with the golden child, ("...you're selfish..."), and you're made to feel guilty even if you manage. Especially if the GC is younger.
The best I could do was to learn to avoid the GC as much as humanly possible, and go grey rock when I couldn't. But this was in the 70's. I was a kid, and really had no idea what I was doing.
In adulthood, I've been told that I was a difficult child because I was "withdrawn." Gee, I wonder why.
Ahhh yes! I did set a couple of perfectly appropriate boundaries with a couple of former bosses, and soon found myself unemployed.
You're damned if you do and damned if you don't with employers.
This makes so much sense. I always have been very dissociated even as a kid. Now as I'm older I realize that my parents are both narcassistic. It makes sense why my brain has learned from so early on to dissociate.
Same. I'm both proud of our brains for protecting us like that and also upset because we didn't deserve to be living in an environment so traumatic that the only way to survive was to just completely check out. Hope you're feeling better these days 🙏
@@anona2017 Same here. It's interesting 'cause I was told to set boundaries as I got older and into therapy but those boundaries never worked. I became scared to set boundaries because it always was met with hostility. I wish I had this video so many years ago. Now I know and have been told by therapists this basically, to not have it effect me emotionally. So I dissociate more. It's all very interesting.
I hope things are better for you as well or at least leading to it.
My high school gf was a savant at making me feel guilty and getting me to take blame for things. The one big example that still stands out in my mind is when we decided to each say something we wanted to change in the relationship, and mine was that I felt like she was keeping me from having any friends other than her (upon further investigation after we broke up, she was absolutely isolating me from anybody else I showed any Interest in being friends with) or that I couldn't spend time with other people unless she was present and I was focused on her, first and foremost. And somehow, she managed to turn it around on me and get upset at ME. Somehow I was the bad guy for being sad that I didn't have any other friends, and somehow she was the victim of my loneliness...actually, if memory serves, she pulled the "am I not enough for you?" card as well as the "but I just love you so much and I need you around me 100% of the time otherwise ill be depressed" card.
So I wasn't quite setting a boundary (more the opposite, trying to be released from a cage), but I definitely activated her trap card and got a large serving of gaslighting and emotional manipulation for dinner
Thank you SO MUCH for making this video!!!! It’s been so frustrating trying to set boundaries.
Stuck in a narcissistic relationship and I can’t get any relief.
Hello! Thanks for your video. I think it's awesome. I have tried setting boundaries with my abusive ex who I share a daughter with and it ends so badly. I have noticed acting weak or blaming myself actually has worked in the past. But I've heard so many things about setting boundaries so I keep trying. I'm going to try not to "set boundaries" in a "strong" way anymore. I always feel awful afterwards and it usually escalates situations. In the bible it says to turn the other cheek, and what you are saying aligns with the bible a lot better and I like that because I am a Christian. So now I'll have less cognitive dissonance in my belief systems to work through too.
And you know what, 5% of the problems with my ex would be my fault. So letting the blame fall on me (while also walking away) is in some ways honest. Cause I'm honestly owning up to whatever weakness I have. And I'm not perfect either. No one is.
I learned my worth and value through my own spiritual awakening. I've learned to set firm boundaries with everyone. I realized that I had been allowing people to treat me badly because I was co-dependent and needed to feel accepted. Once I stopped caring what others thought of me (because their perceptions were based in their own ideas and limited information) it became easier to have and maintain those boundaries. I would rather have peace in my life than attempt to hold onto relationahips with people who feel they can disrespect me and treat me however they want.
Thank you for acknowledging how power dynamics affect boundary setting
Thank you for addressing this! This whole boundary setting thing almost becomes a way to victim blame so I'm glad finally someone is addressing the inherent power dynamics that people ignore.
Thank you so much. I have been in a work environment that prevents me from walking away from bullying and manipulation due to the living conditions.
This has helped me tremendously.
I'm glad that this appeared on the channel (especially since I experienced this myself). Especially like the parts about dissociation and trying to separate emotions from actions, not act impulsively but think things trough, give yourself time.
However this strategy of "pretending to be weak" is often bound to fail - backfire even. Perhaps it can work sometimes, but very often not (especially when dealing with toxic parent/s). Why? Because if you aren't trying to argue back, aren't fighting back, are just taking (or at least are pretending, playing that you are) the blame & guilt, are telling them "I'm weak, you're are strong. You are right, I'm wrong", then:
1. They get that boost, reward, the feed for their ego - "That's right! You're wrong, I'm right! No matter I didn't provided any arguments or facts and you might've easily provided at least 5, I'm right, listen to me you empty-skulled shit! Listen to me and do exactly as I say! What I say is reality! Reality itself is what I say!"
2. They will reinforce their demands. Will make you into their slave, raise you like cattle - a drone to serve them, and/or try to mold you into a clone of themselves(because why consider a child other human being - other being with their own mind, aspirations, thoughts, preferences, likes and dislikes, hopes and dreams. No, they are my legacy, continuation of what I want, they will do as I say, that's it!).
They will reinforce their demands, not allow you to have a thought of your own - make you their lobotomized slave, a drone to serve them till the day they die, and/or make you into what they want you to be, make you do/continue what they want(even if it's impossible for you due to your incurable health issues).
You aren't fighting back? Time to abuse you. To some people it can be boring, annoying, unrewarding. But to many others, be it bullies or toxic parent/s - they will just exploit it. They will make you follow every little "rule" they make up for you.
3. Not to mention that over an extended period of time (which it's bound to take unless the said toxic people suddenly vanish) eventually you may start associating yourself with those labels, your brain may learn that "this is the way to go". You'll learn to live like this, you'll learn to trust living like this, and anything else will feel scary/anxiety-inducing because of it being so new and different - not what you grown to know. You'll start believing certain things (that you're not right, guilty, defenseless, weak, it's pointless to try to reason/fight back, better just give in. Low self-esteem, no fighting "for your own", just submissing to the pain and unfairness), the words/thoughts will become flesh. Even if try to "just play" this as a game, over time it may become difficult to know the difference between just playing it, or really experiencing it, being this.
Maybe I'm wrong, I'm not a trained medical professional after all, all I have is a slight bit of experience under my belt. I just think that it's might be the case and it feels this way, especially after listening to quite a few podcasts at "Tom Billyeu", or "Goalcast", or even here, speaking of mindsets, associating yourself with certain things, traumas, getting "brain software" coding itself in over time and being very difficult or even almost impossible to just swap.
The timing is uncanny, as always. I just found out life-changing diagnosis about myself and this is just what I needed.
Thank you for this video, as it reaffirms much of my life experience. I agree with your decision that the best defence to that type of behaviour *is* to be weak. To look around for help. My mental and physical health progressively worsened as I tried to be resilient to the abuse I faced at home growing up and later in the workplace. I finally shut down at 53 after a lifetime of self-learned coping and masking behaviours failed me. The abusive behaviour was finally too much for me to cope with. That's the first thing my psychiatrist said after I told him my story of how I ended up where I did: "You are resilient," he said. And all I could answer, crying, was: "I am tired of being resilient. I don't want to be resilient anymore." He diagnosed me with C-PTSD on that first visit and later diagnosed me with ADHD. Being resilient, and being strong, just leaves you with more scars and more damage. It's not worth it.
I am still in the deconstruction phase, reliving past experiences through an informed lens and learning how to manage these conditions. I am also cautious when I venture out and am no longer predisposed to 'take it' or 'be strong.'
Yeah, it's kind of interesting to think about... on the one hand "being resilient" sounds like an obviously good thing. But... do you really "need" it in our modern society? It is not like you will just die if you are or act weak... unlike prehistoric times, or maybe even a couple of centuries ago, when many of those deep intuitions or social expectations evolved.
I am just a bit uncertain about what else to aim for instead...
Logic does not create emotion. It's the other way around ... emotion creates the logic. That is so powerful. Guilty feelings comes first that the feeling of guilt drives the belief of doing something wrong.... I really really wish someone would have taught me this sooner.
Hmm. My understanding has been that setting boundaries are never about trying to control others. It's about understanding, recognizing, and honoring the interpersonal boundaries that exist (i am not you, you are not me. You are responsible for your mood, I am responsible for my mood. I am not responsible for fixing you and you are not responsible for fixing me, you may not and aren't able to define or explain my internal experience, and vice versa, etc.) And establishing boundaries is about establishing >my own< limits and what >I'm< going to do if someone crosses them, what am I going to do to honor and protect my needs, how am I going to remove myself or disengage.
Boundaties aren't coercion and manipulation and control of others. Thats actually crossing and violating boundaries.
I’m going through a situation right now with a lot of guilt and emotional manipulation, found your video. Thank you so much for the content, I learned a lot and it has been helpful with helping me digest and strategize. Keep doing what your doing 👍
I got bullied a tiny bit in middle school because I was weird, but I would completely ignore the bullies or just laugh when they made fun of me, they quickly stopped because they got nothing out of me. So I heavily support this message.
I have this way of going into this mechanical mode. I wear the blankest expression when talking to a manipulative person. I will say sorry but won't respond to the button pushing. It's ineresting to watch because it's like watching someone going through all their tools from a toolbox trying to fix something they don't know how to fix. The more unresponsive I am the more frustrated they get. Eventually they will lose interest and move on, which is probably for the best. I think I developed this from passed bad relationships.
Wow i did this alot as a child lol. But it took some time for me to regain the ability to express emotions, always make sure to do that once u get outta that situation
Yeah, did the same and then found out it's an actual strategy called "gray rocking"
Love these concepts and hope they work for many in horrible situations like this.
I would say there’s a caveat to this and that if this doesn’t work, please don’t blame yourself. My parents unfortunately already view boundaries being set against them as weakness and had very little problem with attacking victims and continuing the torrent of insults and abuse against the “weak”. They see weakness as a moral failing. When I would try to disengage from my mother it would only make her angrier, and she would sit with me for literally multiple hours screaming, spitting, and grabbing my face or arms to make me confront her so she could get what she wanted. I could only take so much before I’d break. If I didn’t react it only fueled the fire, and she was only ever satisfied when I would cry and tell her whatever she wanted to hear. If I wasn’t crying, she didn’t think I was genuine. If I was anything else but weeping, she was angry and relentless. I’ve come to accept this truly wasn’t my fault as an adult, but this video would have hurt when I was younger and still trying to understand why I was the target of so much vitriol.
My dad is a true narcissist and these tactics did/would work slightly better on him, assuming his blood pressure wasn’t too out of wack. He would however come back later angry a second time sometimes for “making him feel guilty” so you really can’t win ‘em all 😂
Final thing and this is small - bullies want to put you in YOUR place, not theirs. They want to put you back at the bottom of the social hierarchy where you belong. I found that amusing though, I’ve never heard someone use “put you in their place” before. 😂
I think as much as you’d love to give everyone the tools for all situations, there are some that are just unwinnable. Life doesn’t have a balance team to ensure all battles can be won, and sometimes you just don’t have the ability to overcome certain hurdles and will have to flee when you can. My only solution and what saved my life was counting down the days until I’d be able to move out and making active progress towards that, and I know even that isn’t a possibility for many. Sometimes there’s nothing you can do but hold on to whatever anchor you’ve got and endure. Just remember that it will be worth it to survive, even if you don’t believe it now. I didn’t think I’d ever be happy, but I’ve experienced such an amazing and beautiful life since I finally got out of there. ❤
Wonderful video as always!!
Some people feel triggered by stone cold ice walls up, making them feel attacked by that ice wall. It can be a very common painful trigger that goes back to childhood.
Many people especially religious people who like focus on the family were specifically taught that you have to break your child's will and the proof of that was them falling apart crying. No amount of healthy boundaries is going to work with parents like this. Getting out and cutting contact is the only way. They feel they've been given rights by god to use and abuse you.
@@amberinthemist7912 it wasn’t religious in my situation, my dad is an atheist and my mom was “spiritual” at most. It was about control for her. My dad was verbally abusive towards her, she was verbally abusive towards me. Sometimes I would act out against my sister as a result but my mom would get physical with me if I did so mostly I just cowered and hid away as much as I could. There are many motivations for behavior like this and I do agree religion can be a big part of that. Many times the trauma a child goes through becomes their weapon as an adult and they pass that along to their children. It can be religious or otherwise.
Actually, by crying and telling her what she wanted to hear, you did exactly what he advises in the video! Except he advises to do it as a conscious tactic where you're acting like you agree with her, so you can keep yourself safe, without actually feeling/internalizing those emotions.
I'm so sorry you went through all that. I hope that you have support from people who are level headed and genuine with your best interests at heart, if not I hope that you are or will have resources to get support from therapy ❤
Yes! I love that “be like water”! That’s what I do and I absolutely love it! For some reason, it is power! It makes me feel so powerful to have the self-control to not give them what they want and to slip away and out the door! So empowering! My life has become so peaceful since becoming like water! 🙌🏻
Oh my…. Thank you!
I‘m trying so set boundaries for some time now and I really have problems with those using emotional manipulation because I‘m very accessible to that due to my childhood and other experiences . I already know that I have to leave once I notice that my actions are driven by emotion to think about it. It’s been a long way just to notice and accept those emotions in the first place, but I’m walking - I will try this. Thank you so much.
When I set (sat?) boundaries, my mom got angry and told me (and people around me that) I was selfish, ungrateful, impolite and immature.
She is never going to respect my personal boundaries.
So I maintain the only boundary I can: As little contact as possible.
They can also use you being weak as a justification to walk over your boundaries anyways. My mother used it as a justification at least. In the end the only true answer to boundaries is gaining control over your own life, or if you have to stay with them finding leverage over them you can use.
To be honest, you don't need to give them a reason or justify it at all. Just don't react in the way they want, don't get mad or sad or anything, just blankly listen, maybe say "ok," and after a minute or so, walk away to do something else/hang up. It doesn't matter WHY. You could say "I'm tired" or "I need to do my homework" or something. The fact is the pattern has been broken. When they lash out at you, the interaction slows down and dies off. That's the last thing they want. If that happens every time they lash out, they WILL stop.
Setting boundaries only works when you have the power to do so, and the other part of the equation is rational and capable of flexibility. Its even better when the other side of the equation has a therapist who has told them that you are the problem, and *they* need to make the boundaries.
What do you mean by flexibility? Boundaries are not flexible. They are rules that should be followed under any circumstance.
Isn't the world just amazing?
thanks for explaining this. I think I've naturally evolved to a similar "strategy" recently, but just genuinely because I am becoming exhausted and weak. Being aware of this and able to know that it's actually beneficial and one of the only ways to combat this type of abuse, will help a lot and maybe help me to regain my strength while continuing to help diminish the abusive behaviours of my partner
Same!!! I wish you strength through humility and compassion.
This is so helpful when you are dealing with someone who would rather burn everything to the ground then bear the shame of self-reflection. Please do more on this!!!
less than a minute in and already mind-blown! about to cry lol all these years ive been blaming myself for not setting boundaries but you’re right, i didn’t hold power in the situations that come to mind
thank you
Taking a time-out has been working miracles for my relating to narcissistic people-I-can't-get-rid-of, so I second to that. Great content!
Yes, that's a boundary.
That was SUPER enlightening. A lot of food for thought. As someone that has dealt with more than my fair share of manipulators (even those who don't think they are), that disassociation technique is pure gold. As soon as you take your emotions out of it, all the air is deflated and there's no kickback. It really does work in many (but not all) circumstances. Valuable stuff.
I really appreciate your practical approach to such intense issues. It's been incredibly helpful for me to watch your videos.
Was my 1st x watching your podcasts. Kind of speechless. This topic? Yes. 1000% yes!!! Guessed this intuitively and I have actually taken the tack of being “weak” in the past, not understanding that it was a process of extinguishing behavior. The initial reaction when I did it the 1st x was shock, but the 2nd time I basically said I was an idiot and I’d do better they screamed at me that I wouldn’t. Now I get it and I can sharpen that proverbial tool. As for the section abt emotion comes first and talks your frontal brain into it’s logic? That was brand new info…and man am I gonna use it!!! My god, thank you for your work!!!!
At the end of the day, if I have to EXPLAIN to a grown adult, how to be a decent human being who knows how to show people basic respect, I'm out. First time. I am too old myself to put up with that kind of nonsense anymore.
Since social norms have been thrown out the window, boundaries came in as a weaker, more useless form of social interaction.
I struggle with this so much at work. Like with my dad or a rando I can just shrug it off and hang up/walk away, but with a boss? They usually end up using their power to make every day hell for me. They sure won't fire me but they will 100% find a way to take me off the schedule and really fuck up my income. So of course I get terrified trying to create boundaries with them. But this method makes so much sense to me and I will definitely take it to my next job. Thanks Dr. K!!
Literally the main phrase I use against bullies even when I feel like I'm the stronger individual in the situation is "Why bully?" or "Bully for what?". For me it immediately de-escalates the situation and they leave me alone. Just a piece of experience on the topic ^^
I can relate to all of this having suffered narcissistic abuse with a partner for 13 years and now my teenage child who has followed suit. I learned about all this through suffering until eventually I woke up realising the battle was lost before it even started. I know they get power trip and puff themselves up when you bite back. Everything this man said is absolutely true, listen to him! I wish I saw this video 15 years ago. I can now see when an attack is imminent and apply the techniques automatically, it gets easier when you do this consistently. Hope this helps someone