I hate the fact that the best strategy against a narcissist is to appease them (or remove yourself from being around them if the option is present.) It's like everyone in the narcissist's life has to carefully maneuver around this person as to not trigger a landmine.
they hurt me so bad and when i finally have the courage to drop them i have to again act the same way that was hurting me? it makes me so angry, especially knowing that they will never see what they did wrong, i always be the only wrong one
@@VolkColopatrion You always have a choice and don’t let any piece of shit make you think otherwise. Yes you will deal with challenging consequences or confrontation but it feels amazing to set boundaries consistently you feel powerful and in control and I encourage you greatly to push yourself to do it even if it’s hard. Even with family a manager a colleague you have the right to your boundaries your no your emotional health.
True, but I think part of the battle is that there is no way to challenge and/or set boundaries with a narcissist in a way that will promote meaningful change. NPD is notoriously difficult to treat. They will escalate the situation, and you can open yourself up to more focused targeting. To put things bluntly, you want to escape a narcissists grasp as quickly as possible, but the only way they'll loosen their grip is to stroke their ego. Engaging defensively with them can be as equally draining as internalizing the feelings they make you feel. As I've gotten older, narcissism has been easier to overlook. You see the attempts at validation and dominance as pathetic, especially when you can develop healthy connections or have a higher degree of empathy. You just don't have as much mental energy and time to dedicate to these situations.
its true. if you don't they'll go as far as making false accusations against you, calling the cops, and generally ruining your reputation and self esteem. They lie cheat steal.
Yeah, the good news is it doesnt have to last forever. You'll quit that job, you'll move out, you'll get that divorce, etc. After that, you'll have the power. You can decide what that relationship looks like from there. My narcissistic parents are learning that the hard way. They thought I "had" to maintain a relationship with them no matter what they said or did to me. I don't. Every relationship is voluntary. Whatever you're struggling with, I hope you overcome it better than ever
This loops back to the ultimate dilemma when it comes to narcissts for me, the only way to win is to not play the game at all. The only way to not have to deal with the inevitable toxicity and aggression is to avoid people with behavioral patterns like this. In this case, notice signs of if someone has narcisstic tendencies and cut them off before you build too deep of a connection with them. That also comes with its own problems, so it usually boils down to being a case by case basis with any new person I get to know and interact with. I'm thankful to be in a position where I'm not around people like that anymore, but I know for some it can be really bad
I think that there is a real difference between narcissistic people and people who have never been shown unconditional love as a kid and so the only way they feel loved is conditionally.
@@jansonshrock2859 I'm sorry to have to say this to you, but I have to say it. You sound very enabler-like to me. That is the way to get harmed. Do not give excuses for them, is not your place to justify their upbringing. Everyone is responsible about them selves after 20 years of age. Tough, but true. Narcissists are no joke, they can destroy your selfworth and your very personality leaving you without boundaries. They will give you gifts, and promise help, and future fake you untill you are hooked, and then the devaluation and manipulation will start and never end.
I am a narcissist myself. I completely understand why you feel this way. But keep in mind that it is a spectrum too, not everyone is the same and some try to fight it, including myself. I made the decision to build a wall around me to keep others out to prevent hurting them. Lying and gaslighting is an everyday thing but I just can't control it. It's like a reflex, a part of me. Believe me I hate it too, can't live an honest life. I can't even imagine myself in a relationship so I isolated myself. I still have friends, I talked about it so they understand. But it is still and illness and I don't like the idea that if someone turns out to be a narcissist the only way to go is to cut all contacts. We are humans too... We have feelings too. I didn't choose to be this way. I'm sorry if you had bad experiences in your past, I imagine it's even more demanding if the person is a family member.
Brother I have a diagnosed narcissistic personality disorder and love everyone. Everyone loves me too. not every "narcissist" is the same. If the ego is in check we are normal, just very extroverted.
I would like to add that this is not easy even for an independent emotionally mature adult, let alone dependent parentified child who might be emotionally disregulated themselves and with an ever present dread of the problematic person unleashing their wrath for setting a boundary. This is imho emotional intelligence 2.0 and god bless anyone going through it.
@@hspinnovators5516 Most of the time I would rather have the emotional IQ of a potato than bear an advantage that shouldn't have to be used in first place.
The problem is not only the boundaries... It’s the mixture of gaslighting, humiliation, projection, that they make you feel like an object AND the lack of boundaries. The best way to set them with a narcissist is to go no contact, like with my father.
Yeah, this video can be somewhat useful until you're able to get out. I hope he will do one on understanding the manipulation techniques to better navigate them in the meantime.
I think I’ve only ever met one narcissist, and my stomach sinks everytime I realize that narcissists are parents too… and that their children deal with then every day. Good luck to you both!
taking the blame doesn't help in most situations, maybe with the benign narcissists... but for all of those that I met, it just makes them feel even more entitled towards you because either 1-they "forgive you" with the expectation that this is a free pass for not taking blame next time THEY do something f'd up because how can you not just forgive them like they did for you? 2- they'll do it again and get more and more needy and greedy because they "did nothing wrong" since "you said yourself that it's your fault" 3-they see you taking the blame as a confession of being weak/stupid and they now feel entitled to insult you either in your face or to everyone who knows you. Plus, repeatedly taking blame over things you have nothing to do with, especially as a child/teen, just trains your mind to think that everything is your fault all the time and to take blame to avoid potential harm instead of solving situations and conflicts by properly discussing the issue. And good luck for deprogramming that shit, I'm still working on it after years of going no contact.
Wholeheartedly agree! Dr K does highlight that one should get away when and if they can. The other issue is realising that too late. Before I was aware of the narcissism in my family, a few good friends told me to go no contact. I didn't because "it's your family" and after the one rare occasion where I exploded in rage - without saying anything threatening - they betrayed my trust with them, my psychiatrist and ultimately my own gut. It remains humiliating and showed me that going no contact was the only way forward.
100% all of this. I usually get really good thinking material from this channel, but that bit made me recoil. That shit didn't work with my ex-dad when I was a kid and left me with the exact problem you have. He couldn't even resist the temptation to try those tactics when I gave him a "listen and cooperate or I disown you" ultimatum. And the second I acknowledged that I know things were rough for him, he took it, ran with it, and stopped trying to meet me halfway.
I agree 100%. Setting boundaries, just to weaken them as in „Oh sorry it’s my fault I won’t talk to you, but I’ll call you first thing in the morning“ is going to result in no difference honestly. You’re still obliging to the demands of the narcissist, and taking the „blame“ of your newfound boundaries on yourself, which in turn will just create a bether disposition to be guilt-tripped. Setting boundaries just to take the blame on yourself and then afterwards go back on your boundaries, to fulfill the whish inside the power disbalance sounds totally backwards to me. Further on: Annahilation of contact towards a narcissistic person may be required in some people, as hard as this may sound. Sometimes you won’t ever get through towards a person, no matter how hard you try, so cutting the contact ist just the most selfpreserving act. Because even if you are fighting towards a bether relationship, the actions you take are still about them. It’s like the analogy of first swimming in the same direction as the flow (being the control of the narcissist) just to wake up and try to take control back and swimming in the opposite direction of the stream (fighting toward a bether relationship). But what is when this swimming against the stream doesn’t lead to nothing? Then you are not only still inside the water, but also fighting upstream (you drain even more energy). There is a third option: crawling out of the water. Because being stuck inside still makes it about them, no matter the direction. I hope my analogy somewhat illustrated what I mean with preserving one‘s self and cutting contact. Lastly: I won’t imply that being outside of the water is a long term strategy in dealing with narcissists. Especially if those people matter to you. Sometimes you get to the end swimming against the stream. Sometimes it is worth fighting and crawling to get back what is meant for you. Sometimes you will find back to your loved one, and find peace after troubling times, and sometimes this endeavour is incredibly rewarding. You have to decide for yourself. And going back on your boundaries, as this video discussed is not the way in my eyes.
Dr k said this is what you do if someone has power over you. This is the option in the worst case scenario where going no contact is not an option. Eventually you want to rid that person from your life but dr k describes how you can make the situation slightly better temporarily.
If you're a kid trying to set boundaries with your narcissistic parent that may work, however if your boss or partner is a narcissist you're better off leaving or fighting back then enabling their abuse, cause it's just gonna continue... Kids can't really choose their parents, but as an adult, you have a choice!
Agreed, been dealing with a narcissistic boss for the last two years. I've been applying for different jobs for 9 months and can't get even an interview. My nightmare boss is constantly threatening to cut my hours even more than she already has and gets genuine enjoyment out of threatening staff. I don't consider that I even have a job. I've witnessed this psychotic woman physically assault someone and get away with it.
This is good advice Dr.K, but my experience with this is that emotionally-dependent people will often move the goalpost in regards to their feelings of resentment. For example, I have a sister who gets upset if I visit home for a few weeks, but also spend a few days with my friends. She has said that she feels that "You think they're more important than me", despite me spending more than 5 times the amount of time with her than with them. At the same time, I know from experience that she would probably also be upset if I visited home for 3 weeks, and also spent 2 days with my friends. It can help to take a bit of the stakes out of the exchanges by putting your boundaries on the table, but the issue is that emotionally-dependent people are often illogical and feel that they need to be the center of attention at all times. What's really helped me is detaching somewhat from my sister's reactions in the firstplace. Setting boundaries with her helps, but ultimately I can only control my own actions, and my own feelings to some extent. I know logically that it isn't my job to never see my friends again so my sister can feel secure that she's more important, and only through detaching from my sense of guilt and shame around that was I able to find some peace. In the end, some people are never satisfied, and it isn't your job to make them happy with your life decisions. Especially in the case of family.
What about telling her straight up that you don't know how much you actually miss her because the sense of guilt she has induced in you overwhelms the other feelings. Perhaps then she will understand that she needs to give you more space in order for you to go to her out of genuine feelings. That's the only way she would feel like she's actually important to you.
@@Desimere Doubtfully. This is all rooted in childhood trauma. Being afraid of abandonment, neglect, rejection, etc. Obviously communication is important, but from my experience unless those wounds are healed then she won't understand why she's acting the way she is. Most of us carry some level of these wounds. Some deeper than others. It's something we have to heal ourselves. Only then will we be independent and emotionally able to regulate ourselves. Not needing other people to do it for us. Unless we were lucky getting the needs met growing up, for secure attachment style. She's family, but it's not your job. You got to do whatever is right for you. Obviously healing the relationships is what we all want, but first every individual has to heal. I obviously don't know you, nor your sister. You seem like you are quite self aware and want the relationship to work. Could be worth letting her know about inner child work. If she truly wants to have a deeper relationship that stuff is so important.
@@JamieR you’re exactly right! If she doesn’t heal her childhood trauma wounds around abandonment, and feeling secure then it wouldn’t matter if 100% of the time was spent with the sister. She’d still find something to complain about that she perceived as indicative that she’s not important eg “yes you spent 100% of your time with me on this visit, but you never asked me about my dietary preferences, it was all about you; I became vegan 3 months ago, which you would have learned if my thoughts and opinions mattered to you at all”. 😢 Hou cannot win. They have to do the work, heal the wounds, learn how to do a reality check, learn how to regulate their emotions, and how to communicate. It’s a syllabus of mindfulness, DBT, ACT, NVC, and other skills. Best wishes 😊
Unfortunately this video doesnt really cover your situation because you're siblings. If you're not depending on your sister for anything then she doesnt really hold any power over you. You have the ability to take the more direct approach or method and not give into her behaviour. This advice would be more akin to if you were living with your sister and depended on her for a roof over your head and she was pulling that whenever you tried to leave the house.
Something I've always wondered is how any narcissist parent can, as you say, not give a crap about your boundaries (which is basically saying (I think) that they don't give a crap about your thoughts or feelings about ANYTHING, really), but somehow expect things to turn out well between the two of you in life. Do they just not think about this at all? Is this something that separates narcissists from the rest of us? I would never be so presumptuous as to think that ANY person on this planet would not only tolerate shitty treatment from me, but also LIKE me despite it all.
~The thing is, Narcsissists don't believe they do anything wrong, and when something bad happens it's everyone's fault but their own. For example, my mother will flip out at me for `anything small, and I will tell her to sto p or something, and she will go into victim mode telling me to stop treating her like trash and this is why we cannot have a relationship, blah blah blah. They go from attack dog, to `beaten puppy in a matter of an instant, all because you questioned what they are doing and why.
Some of them need to be reminded of that to understand. I've seen abusive parents stopped immediately when the child (oftentimes already teenagers) threatened them that they're going to treat them the exact same way (or go no contact) when they become old and powerless. My mom said that to my grandma, and it was only after that she stopped beating her. It has worked on some of the other parents too (it was the grandparent who reminded the parents that the kids are going to have revenge on them after they grow up).
I agree (also with replies from others above). I even think some do see the anguish on their child's face (at any age), think they're too sensitive or "tough shit, I'm right and they have to learn!", and then completely miss the reality of the situation: regardless of right or wrong, that kid is going to hate you forever. I just wonder if they're incapable of seeing that, again, regardless of how they feel about it.
@@brianzembruski5485 they don't see their kids as human beings the same as they are, but as extensions of themselves. The same goes for the partner etc. Your own hand won't go no contact if you punch a wall and it starts hurting. The narcissist won't expect you to leave because they're not really aware you're your own person with your own free will.
Journal, Journal, Journal. Write EVERYTHING down. The Doc is right and if you're listening to this and thinking "Man, this sounds like a LOT of work..." it is and it will and the way Narcissists can be is if you slip up or they get wind on what you're doing it can get ugly. My advise, sadly from personal experience, is to as mentioned, Journal what happened so you always have a way of going back and reminding yourself what actually happened not what the Narcissist brainwashed you to think what happened, make sure you talk to someone you feel you can trust and won't tell the Narcissist and have an escape plan. You need to be thinking "If Mum/Dad throw me out of the house, where do I go?" If that does happen, make sure you read your journal to remind yourself of your journey with them, what they asked you to do, what you said, how you felt because once they've thrown you away they'll try and get you back and try to make you feel that it was your fault, no matter what happened. It won't be a nice journey but at the end of it you'll be stronger for it and that strength came from you, not them for doing whatever.
As someone who grew up with an insanely narcissistic dad, hearing you so succinctly put into words the techniques I had to unconsciously learn through years of emotional guilt and tears is really rewarding. I hope everyone watching this realises how useful these tips are
I was surprised to realize how I do every single thing he mentioned with everyone in my life all the time. From taking responsibility for not being able to help all the way to giving alternatives to getting their needs met. I have only recently began to learn how to resolve conflicts without doing all that, though being confrontational is a skill all of its own I realized.
People dont understand that we sometimes have homocidal thoughts about our dads. Thats how much anger we feel and its all their fault. If we hurt them, then they stop . But I cant hurt them like I can hurt someone on the street, they're our dads. And they know this and use it against you, so you start fantasizing "hmm what if I say no, then just grab this and knock it on his head?" on morning.. It gets deep into resentment, at least for me with narcs.
The best thing I found out to set boundaries naturally, subconsciously and without any behavioural effort, is to ask oneself "How do I feel about this person? How do I feel about what this person says to me?" If you have the answer, and sit with that feeling, it removes insecurities. More often than not, you can safely feel disgust, which is most of the time enough to emotionally protect oneself. And you can really deconstruct everything with that. Through that, your behaviour will naturally protect you and shift you as an uninteresting supply. You let your subconscious and emotional fortitude do all the job.
It's so annoying that there are people in the world who get offended just because of your personal boundaries! As if you're not supposed to do what is best for yourself, as if you're supposed to bend so far until you are on the floor being stepped on while the person who is stepping on you feels better! 🙄🥴 If the only way a person can feel better is stepping all over someone else then they don't deserve friends!
Sometimes I like to push the boundaries of people not because I want to walk on them but I just think they need to think deeper than they actually are. On the other hand I have to be careful to not push them too much that they will hate me for it. I'm talking more about people that complain about a problem but doesn't seems to understand the problem well. It's like they complain just to complain.
@@wayne9287 Thank you for sharing your thoughts! If you don't mind, would you explain to me how you pushing someone else's boundaries can make them think deeper? Exactly what do you mean by that? How does that work?
@@vexling111 not really. It's a normal human trait healthy in the right dose, but it becomes a baked in disorder when it governs everything they do. It's a coping mechanism
When dealing with narcissists, this kind of predicament where you're either forced to do what they want right now OR compromise and do what they want later, NEVER feels like you're setting boundaries even when it technically might be slightly setting boundaries. It's just you never really win, you are still playing their game on their terms. It's just a matter of how. It's exhausting to even think about..
I agree and this video is pretty triggering because of that. We all know though that you can't win with a Narcissist as they want us as door mats and they don't like it when we say no. Really the better option is to limit or don't have them in your life at all. I do know this though that this video is basically for someone in a situation where they are trapped with a narcissist and they can't leave and so have this unbalanced power dynamic (e.g. a child still at home or an adult living with a Narc, or adult is still emotionally dependent on Narc) Any type of dependency on the Narc is them having power over us. A person who is financially, socially and physically and emotionally independent will find boundaries a lot easier as they can basically say 'bye' and mean it. A Narc has got power when we go back. A lot of us do have to go back for something and the Narc knows that. An example is my Narc dad knows I don't visit or go back for him anymore but because I care about my mum. He knows my love for my mum is leverage and a vulnerability and so he will exploit this to get what he wants. So even when he guilts me about my mum, I still have to set that boundary and reassure myself that my mum will be okay and I am not wholly responsible for her anyway.
I’ve tried these things, but he pushed all boundaries. He would fight, argue and manipulate to get his way. His way. If it’s not exactly what he wants he will act difficult until he gets his way.
Well that certainly happens. The word narcissist is overused, but, if we take someone who is narcissistic but don’t have (or🤷🏻♀️ may, we don’t know) a narcissistic personality DISORDER, there is a whole range of narcissistic behaviors and a whole range of how severe they are. The examples dr K says here may work great on people who are very self centered, slightly narcissistic. In your case it’s not enough. And in some cases, maybe yours - I don’t know but it sounds like it - you can never get it to work; they’re simply not able and/or interested. Hope you’re ok.
Same. Over the years I tried everything with my dad. Keeps pushing until he gets what he wants even if it causes me to be sick for weeks. Tried with a therapist, she doesn't want him as a client. No contact it is....
@@justbuns6404 yeah, therapy won’t help. Took my husband to multiple therapists. There is a reason why most therapist don’t want to work with them. They are very difficult and entitled. My husband left and me and cheated on me because I didn’t want to move out of state with him even though we literally had no money. He cheated because I was too busy dealing with Postpartum and taking care of 4 kids while he went to “work”. Now he’s trying to force time with kids that he ignored while here. It’s hell trying to keep boundaries with a person who really doesn’t respect them. And I don’t have the energy to do the same thing back. I have the grey rock because we have kids together
Sounds like my dad. He’s out of the picture now, got new kids with his new wife. He left me alone after that, good riddance. Some people say “but he’s your dad”. So what? Do I have to live a life feeling inadequate and like a failure because of a bully father? No thanks. Blood is not always thicker than water.
I'm glad you made the point you did in the beginning. Self help and life advice types present "setting boundaries" as a magic solution to taking control of your life. In reality it can more so act like a filter for who truly respects and appreciates you, and who is going to just take you for granted and possibly abuse you.
Yeah, I made this same experience too. My parents used to always call for me for everything, always for some made-up reasons. The mantra I took up was: Stop being useful. I embraced being a disappointment. I would even go so far as to not be on time on purpose. Like, actually being on time, then waiting another 10 minutes before I'd walk up the rest of the way and ring the door. I did the things they wanted me to do sloppier, forgot small things, became slower. Stuff that should have been done in a day ("fix my notebook") took two weeks. I stopped being useful, and they stopped relying on me. I've become super aware about the relationship of usefulness with friends, and I started to draw a clear distinction between friends and acquaintances. I'm trying to never see friends as useful, and to never be useful to my friends. That doesn't mean I'm not helping, or I'm not taking part in their lives. I just refuse to be a means to an end. If I'm there and helping, I'm doing it because I want to. And if somebody starts to up-end that relationship, implicitly or explicitly demanding your usefulness, you just slowly let it grind to a halt through malicious compliance.
I can see how that works but really that is basically becoming a covert Narcissist yourself as they do this do were they are studiously inept so you don't ask them for anything. I personally dont view becoming a narcissist in retaliation as a 'win'.
It's a truly bizarre feeling hearing Dr K lay out the same steps I figured out and used to deal with my own narcissistic mother when I was 13... But also, I can confirm this does work.
Your comment makes me see how it is funny that people (who are currently not under this power dynamics) misinterpret dr k advice. It is not to simply suck up to narcisist (albeit it sort of is) but it is the baby steps needed to grow our boundaries. If people who need this could actually give a shit about the narc, then it would be like the example where Dr K can say "sorry bro" to a pacient who demands having medication right now. Which means "you" have equal or greater power and can even go no contact with no consequences.
Used to have this friend that would act like he was my best friend. Interested in all the things i show interest in and tries to participate as well. I noticed he would go through this cycle over and over again. There would be something he wanted from me, and instead of asking he would pretend to be interested in whatever i was at the time to get in close. Whenever he realizes he's not going to get the secret goal he wanted he then weaponizes the friendship and uses everything he can against you. I let the guy stay at my house several times because he's always couch hopping. I noticed without fail whenever i say "Ok times up man, not sure where you're gonna go but times up here" then all of a sudden he's mad at me for 10 other reasons and uses everything he can against you to make you the piece of shit in his story. Far as im concerned, some juice just isn't worth the squeeze. Im not a psychiatrist and i shouldn't have to be just to have a friend.
This reminds me of myself. I'm not a narcissist (not a traditional one at least) but I noticed this toxic trait in me. Whenever I'm feeling deeply hurt from having a conversation with my best friend (without him doing anything wrong at all) my mind immediately and automatically comes up with a million unrelated reasons of why I hate him and those reasons feel extremely valid at that moment. Of course I never say those things out loud to him because I know those are not my real thoughts
Set behavioral expectations, set consequences and tell them in advance. Make your plan in advance and keep the pieces in place. - need somewhere to go? Separate bank accounts? Your exit strategy? Decide what you will do *in advance* and then follow through. It doesn't matter what they say- behavior tells the truth of a person's intentions. And all behavior is goal oriented. You have to love yourself enough to value your own survival over discomfort.
I think this really shows why hierarchy is such a tragedy, people shouldn't be afraid to set boundaries with their bosses. Everyone in the work place should have some level of control.
Sent this video to my family group chat. I used this exact approach with my mom before I stopped speaking with her about 2 years ago (as did most of my family). This really helped recontextualize a lot my experiences dealing with her. That said, as you can see from the above, it didn't work well enough, to the point that I now do not talk to her at all. But if you *have* to be around someone who is narcissistic, I can definitely confirm this approach can work really really well. There may come a time, however, that cutting off contact with someone simply might be the better choice. I already had my own apartment, my own job, my own insurance, my own phone plan, my own car, etc., so I wasn't taking on any economic burdens by doing so. I would advise anyone to take those factors into account before taking such drastic action, but if you're able to, I wouldn't beat yourself up over it either. Some people simply are not worth the effort, even if they are family. If you think they *are* worth the effort, though, or you don't have the option of leaving, then Dr K's advice seems very solid to me.
Well said, and I agree! Dr K's approach is a good shortterm solution, but even if the solution is achieved, it's not futureproof. There WILL be a time where the narc will come to you again and again. It's better to use that same effort on actively changing one's situation than perpetuate the same old dynamic (even if it can only be diffused in the short-term, it's never really resolved). Narcissists don't change unless they are forced to take a good, hard look at themselves which is rare.
@@physicianskitchen Hahahahaha Useless Useless Useless, really stupid thing to try to do, just leave, the only one that can help a Narcissist is the Narcissistic itself but they are never the problem, it's you, Run, they'll get distracted with someone else eventually.
Have to agree - you've made an important distinction around when it may or may not work. I see you. I had to go no contact with my family in 2021. I'm still a wreck. Realising that even techniques like this won't always work but having their voices stuck in your head... It's tough - but well done!
I have used a harsher method on my mom once I became financially independent: I let her know my honest thoughts on everything all in one day, listened to her have an anger outbreak and then stoped talking to her. I admit I have some years of resentment piled up and I need to talk to a psychiatrist.
I’d like to know about other people’s experiences regarding going no contact with their narcissistic family members. Has the narcissist reached out to you or is the narcissist indifferent about it?
I’d like to know about other people’s experiences regarding going no contact with their narcissistic family members. Has the narcissist reached out to you or is the narcissist indifferent about it?
My narc aunt regularly tries to convince me to go back to live with her, but her reasons only benefit her. - So she can be close to me - So she can supervise me - So we can hang out together - So I can help her with groceries I always say "No that's okay, I'm happy with my husband. No, I don't want that in my life, thanks." At first she tries to sound sad, but eventually she starts shrieking of how ungrateful I am after all she did for me and hangs up
@@TheStarrySky-sb9df All same with me. But...I stopped thinking of her immediately, I was to occupied with my probles, job, kid etc. My mygrene (from 5yrs old) stopped!!!!!!! I forget she existed. AI horror "mom"
Can confirm this. A psychologist gave advice on setting boundaries, which made me realize my communication skills weren't the reason for family members crossing my boundaries. I was lucky and able to run from home. The narc has been very needy, and it's given me more power over them than I can handle. You have to be careful in this position. If you abuse your control over them, you are an abuser. And it won't be only towards them.
We have to set boundaries with people in general. Not just narcissists. I think the internet has thrown the word narcissist around way too much. My ex and I had a lot of toxic elements of our relationship and upon looking for clarity, I began to label her a narcissist, someone with BPD, etc. But in reality it's not true. She's not perfect but neither am I. It's definitely not good to label people like that. I've been no contact from her for almost two months and it's so we can both heal. I have to work on myself and be the best person I can. I can't change her or talk her into doing anything she doesn't want to do, but neither of us deserve to suffer. I only want the best for her and myself, and I am willing to do this very painful and hurtful work in order to come out on the other side much healthier.
This whole narc thing and other psychology "stuff" it's a trend. But if you talk to a psychology professional, they'll tell you that we have a bit of everything. The point of dr. K's video is setting boundaries. I've dealt with people who aren't full on narcissists and showed one or two traits of it. And while they are what they are, I also know that some times, it's us who "build" that kind of "traits" on others. The video is about trying to help people who have trouble setting boundaries. That's why he mentioned even being away, still having emotional troubles setting them.
@@SolusAgomor yeah narcissism is a personality trait. everyone is narcissistic on some level. but Narcissists are people who have above average levels of Narcissism with a bunch of other traits.
I read a book in high school called boundaries which was basically a guide on how to do what Dr. K just said. I can tell you right now, it has saved me countless times. Either from people pressuring me at work, pressuring me with family, or even my partner pressuring me. Setting healthy boundaries is good for everyone.
This video like really understands the issue, what i did with my boss is - I would note down the work and i would do it later- but i had to get work done - just in a different time than i was doing earlier and i could see it really confused them and just that confusion saved me so many times.
I keep getting the toxic elders contacting me saying “just talk to us again, one day we will die” instead of “we see and understand that we intentionally casted you out and projected our sh!t onto you over a long period of time , and though it is inconvenient for us to acknowledge we understand that you feel things and will offer you autonomy no matter how we feel about it now.” I feel like the parent here. I feel like the mom. I am childless. Send help lol.
7:58 i understand this approach but i hate it so much. I hate catering to someone who uses me. I hate putting my self down to improve the mood of someone who would never lift a pinky to help me
Wonderful video, dr. K! I would love to see more on boundaries. Boundaries with emotionally exhausting friends is a great topic! How to convey you still care about them but you can’t be there for them 24/7
It's both funny and hurtful at the same time to find out through these videos and therapy with my psychiatrist that the person who called me a narcissist and turned everyone against me was in fact, the actual narcissist projecting himself upon me for stealing his spotlight. Time is definitely your friend in these cases, the people who the narcissist turns against you will always realize they got manipulated, either when they become the narcissist's next target or through other groups in common where the narcissist has no spotlight or control to manipulate the majority of the opinions.
I like your ideas, and I think you are spot on with the issue with therapists. I consulted a few, and when I tried to set boundaries, I found myself on the receiving end of their massive, unjust boundaries. I did end the relationship, but I sort of had to do so. If a person can avoid a narcissist, he/she/they should. Even with this technique (and I've for it at this time), you're sort of telling them that they are right, and you are saying that you are the issue. Plus, it makes a person sick. This is a solution to be used in the short-term, hopefully. I mean that a job shouldn't be toxic. It's so tough. Good job.
I’d like to know about other people’s experiences regarding going no contact with their narcissistic family members. Has the narcissist reached out to you or is the narcissist indifferent about it?
@@victorialamas551They will not like it. Narcissists see the world differently. But that shouldn't stop you from seeking a better life. They may keep trying to reach out to you. My recommendation is to not let them be in control. Make yourself look good, get some nice clothes, take good care of your hair, etc. I'm saying this because they tend to be obsessed with personal image. Talk to them in the most respectful but direct way possible. If they realize that they will look bad if they push you to a decision, they will back down and think of another way. When explaining your decision, do not point it out as their problem or an issue that you have. Here are a few examples: - If you say "You are annoying so I don't want to talk to you.", they will see that you are putting them as the problem and try to justify themselves. - If you say "I don't enjoy this relationship and want to move forward.", you are describing it as a problem that you have. That will make them try to solve your problem, even if you don't want it. - Instead, I would suggest something like "I'm currently very busy with work and my tasks. Because of that I don't have time to be meeting with you, right now, etc.". They can't tell you how to do your work. They can't tell you not to fix your problems because that will make them look bad. This type of distance is what I would suggest. Polite and with no emotion whatsoever. Narcissists are obsessed with personal image. So, since they like to manipulate others, we can use their tools against them. If we can set the situation in a way that they will look bad if they break your boundaries, they will behave. Good luck and stay safe.
@@victorialamas551once they realise they have no use of you anymore, they tend to ignore your existence. At least that’s what happened to me, and I’m glad about this!
Setting up boundaries was a game changer for me. Stopped communicating with toxic father, stopped engaging, stopped defending, just stopped EVERYTHING. Made me feel about my everyday life much better. Set up boundaries with my ex (we were still "friends", her initiative) - she stopped getting free supply from me (about which she was *really* disappointed) - she finally left me alone. Then she tried to get back and bombard me with her thoughts about our relationships, how did it suck etc. This time I did defend myself, which made her lose her ground, since usually I wouldn't confront her. So, some narcissists require defense, and some not. I cannot leave my father right now, so not engaging is a better strategy. The boundary is - my life is my life, he is not welcome, he will not be listened to. For ex - some defence was necessary, since she would try to hoover me from time to time, but the boundary is basically the same - she is not welcome in my life anymore.
People who have been struggling, learning, and practicing boundaries with narcs can tell this video is a true gem of knowledge. I hope millions will watch this and put in practice what you are saying. People who is just starting to learn about narcissism will probably think you are exaggerating. Thanks Dr K, this was very much straight forward and I appreciate it immensely.
it mostly helps to not take them serious inside of your mind and to have no hesitation to lie at them whatsoever (for lies they are never able to uncover that is) and to be ready to wanting to treat them very poorly (because they make you think not being a slave is you actively killing them) and distancing yourself from them so far that you dont value them at all and just value your own survival.
I am having a hard time setting boundaries with my mom, I would never think of my mom as being a narcissist, but when I thought about it more and sort of remember how she would word things and how she would try to manipulate me to do what she wanted me to do, it made perfect sense, The last time I tried to set boundaries with her, it didn't end well and of course, she was crying and acting like a child and was trying to make me feel sorry for it, and believe me, I did feel sorry, it hurt so bad because my wife was telling me how sometimes when my mom would get my wife alone with her, my mom would talk to my wife about her weight, how she should be careful and she should manage it, and it would make my wife feel like absolute shit, and knowing that made my blood boil because my own mother is treating my wife like this, like she is her daughter, when all my wife needs is a friend, it made me mad and upset. I haven't talked to her since. The problem with trying to set boundaries with my mom is that she doesn't give a rat's ass about them, she doesn't think there needs to be any boundaries set because she's my mother and she would never hurt me or my wife, and honestly, I'm not really sure about that anymore, it doesn't feel that way, and the more I try and defend myself and my wife, it's like I'm pushing her away and I don't want to lose my mom. It's so hard wearing my heart on my sleeve and having to set boundaries with my mom when she doesn't understand why and doesn't believe she did anything wrong. As someone else has said, it seems like the only REAL solution is to cut all contact with them, and I don't know that I can.
When it hits you, it really just hits you like a ton of bricks. Been there, man. Damn near word for word, too. The part about not wanting to lose her, especially. Over time I came to realize that wasn't really accurate, as you can't lose something you never had.
The other thing I would add is that by establishing boundaries, all you are saying to your mother is "respect me as a individual with my own wants and needs" and your mother's responses are just different versions of "nah". You're not at risk of losing her because you're doing something harmful, she's at risk of losing *you* because she refuses see you as a person. That's not your fault
This is pure gold. I've been told to and tried to set boundaries just as much as they have been instantly ignored without a second look. Thank you Dr K
Setting boundaries is easy. Enforcing them is the difficult thing. Because it often takes sacrifice. And most people simply want their cake and eat it too. Be willing to go to jail, lose your job, be alone for a while, etc. It's like poker. When the other players realize you aren't willing to lose your money, then you become easily exploitable. Once you CONSISTENTLY show them that you're willing to put your stack on the line, exploiting you becomes near impossible.
Painfully accurate. To them it's essentially a chicken game. They are used to people folding under their treats and manipulation, they don't expect people to actually stick to their guns long enough for them to have to change anything.
12:40 This legit happened at one of my old workplaces. Power went off. And the employee was called in on his wedding to fix it. He was allowed to go trough with the ceremony that was ongoing when he picked up the phone, but straight after that he had to come in. He had no share in the company. He was a simple middle aged hourly worker, slightly above minimum wage.
People eventually need to cut narcissists out but this may be the only thing you can do until that. Make your boss get fired (if they are a middle manager) or easier: just leave. The hardest part is about being an underage child of a narcissist or worse: 2 of them. Just get away from them ASAP and work on that beforehand, maybe before them knowing about it. And thinking about narcissist parents it can be seen that it's way easier to deal with a narcissist boss in comparison.
@Bence - your last sentence is very profound. As the only child of two narcissistic-codependent parents, it is HELL! Narcissistic workers/bosses are better because your overall environment at work still has to oblige laws that the public knows about. In private homes, only the family knows what happens behind closed doors. Yes, it IS true that narcs are meant to cut off. It isn’t a healthy relationship to have (even if you are hanging on to your boundaries). With narcs, you cannot be authentic or grow in authentically. You cannot share authentically. People like this aren’t food to be around for our longterm health whether they are a parent, friend or boss. It’s best to get away from them.
I’d like to know about other people’s experiences regarding going no contact with their narcissistic family members. Has the narcissist reached out to you or is the narcissist indifferent about it?
Thank you for saying this OUT LOUD, and too, what you are suggesting people do is exhausting and unsustainable. MOST clinicians I have come into contact with DO NOT respect the boundaries of patients and clients AT ALL, particularly in contexts involving highly degreed clinicians in psychiatry... doctors, surgeons, nurses, therapists, and support staff... who entered these fields because it's far more grand and easy to play 'hero' than to keep the focus on oneself and healing ones own wounds. And they will do almost anything to prop up the fragile self-belief that they are the hero. And the overreach begins with the presumption that patients SHOULD (never true) trust a clinician because of their position. Trust is EARNED. Healthy boundaries are reflected in the trustworthiness of others being consistently demonstrated. And it speaks to the abuse, pervasively perpetrated and systemically permitted in your profession, that the less support system a patient or client has, the more abusive clinicians are. Because, somewhat rightly, it is assumed there will be no accountability.
I'm saving this video to watch again in the future, until I learn how to deal with my mother 🙄 I wish I learned this before, my childhood would've been, at least, slightly better. But the 90s were a mess, this info would never reach me in time... What you do here is amazing, thank you so much Dr K. 💚
With a boss, l had to say l feel a safe in this relationship. That word means something legally and he backed down fast. After a year he got to point of trusting me. He gave me a longer leash than others on team because l was productive. I never took credit for my work and let him take the credit too…who cares. Everyone knew what l did because l worked well with others.
I think this is fair advice for a person that you can't get away from in the moment; such as a boss or a family member. However, you should do everything you can to get away as soon as you can (find a new job, move out, etc). Sometimes the best way to get a point across is to ignore this behaviour entirely and cut these individuals out of your life. I guarantee a narcissist will never bring a net positive into your life; they'll only take and take and take.
Like... if my best friend would say - when I am crying and I am calling - "lets do it tomorrow", I will just say "well, tomorrow I will not need it already, it is a job of a friend - always being there for you.
Then you need to look hard at yourself, because this is a problem with you, not them. A friend is not a job. You are using them right thinking about their needs
I think I desperately need to learn how to this. I’m blown away by this. My life had the ability to be drastically different than what it has been. I can set boundaries, but I can be too easily manipulated into acquiescing. This is the first time I have ever been told how it can be done.
My mom used to call for me to come help her. I would not yell back and finish what I was doing and go to her 5-10 minutes later. She would then be mad it took so long for me to come when she's yelling. I would then suggest she come up to me and ask for my help without yelling, or come help me finish what I was doing to make it faster. Her response was, "I don't want to have to come to *you*" - so literally I have no idea how I'm supposed to lay a boundary when she insists on yelling and won't see her need being met faster by coming to me. Because coming to me would be a power imbalance i guess.
This is what I used to do. It got to the point where they'd call me toxic and I'd shrug and say ok. Once I realized I didn't have enough ability to respect enough to not constantly look and act angry, I cut them off.
That was amazing and one of the reason I started dismissing therapists: their solutions are usually nonsensical (at least in the kinds of things I've needed). Like the bullied kid going to the principal and the principal rounding up the bullies and forcing them to shake hands and then pushing them out of his office. This should DEFINITELY be part of EVERY therapist's formation! Diagnostic is 0% solution. It hasn't served it's purpose yet.
Yes exactly!!! That's exactly what bothered me with my therapist. She kept telling me try again to set boundaries, talk with using I not you etc but she wouldn't understand that is just doesn't work in my family. I've tried all my life. Only solution is leaving
I really liked the way this video was edited. I found the text summaries on screen helpful. Keep doing what you're doing you and your team and all of the coaches who work with you are amazing!
i feel like im ahead of these videos a few times now!! been watching since the start of the pandemic and they have definitely helped! i think the best way toi deal with narcissists is to not deal with them. you will never "win", so dont try and play
No matter what you do it is extremely difficult to set boundaries with narcissists They won't call you or come to you by themselves but they'll use someone else to reach you out or to make you do what they want Both of my parents are narcissists and I am the only child It's really exhausting to deal with them
Same my dad had most the real power and my mum hated it so if when ge did something she didn’t like (often occurred) she would take it out on my because she knew she could and if I reacted then dad blamed me and they’d both punish me then lol it’s disgusting narcissists are vermin tbh
If your grandmother narcissist doesn’t have power over you, the “revenge” to get power over you is so mean and offensive it’s not sustainable. But because they know they need their needs met they won’t stop. Going no contact is the only solution that keeps you healthy and happy or recovering to that point.
I used to be surrounded by them my whole life. My mother, grandmother and a best friend. My recent ex turned out to be one and that's why I went no contact when I left. That's also when I finally got educated on what they are, so I could remove myself from their vicinity. My ex would also pull the suicidal card every now and again when he sensed I wanted out. The last time I just rolled my eyes. Lo and behold he is very much alive and kicking, narcing around.
This video is so important, I often read on reddits like aita and relationship advice, when there's clearly a power dynamic between a parent and their kid (adult and teens) or something similar, and most of the comments say things like "you have to put your foot down, enough is enough, you have to lay your boundaries and they have to respect you". Everytime I think... no... that's not how it works. And the parent or whatever doesn't even have to be a narcissist, they could just be self-centered and egotistical (which is different). Sometimes it seems kind of frustrating because everyone acknowledges narcissism exists, but everyone seems to think being firm is what solves the issue, there's no just "walk away from the situation" or "try to reason with them", doing that often escalates the issue.
One thing I’m missing in this video is when it is about emotional boundaries. Last week I had my birthday and my parents took the family out to dinner. All fine, but I don’t like to be the centre of attention. So after the presents, which I thanked them for but also said I felt uncomfortable with it, I asked them to not have the waiters bring a firework. They looked at me weird and kept pushing/joking, but I stayed firm. Unfortunately, my step grandma entered the building. And immediately started about the fireworks, I again said I didn’t want it but she didn’t care. And NONE of my other family members, except my brother, supported me. Like I understand that I could’ve mentioned it before going out, but how do you handle people constantly pushing and crossing your boundaries in the moment? Also, how can I have their emotional needs met, as this play is purely: “you’re embarrassed so we’re entertained”. Because I’m in those situations a lot more..
As always this seems to be great advice. Setting boundaries has been a problem for me because I’m not very confrontational with people I don’t feel comfortable with. I ended my semester finals a few weeks ago and I had a classmate call me almost 60 times during a 3 week period asking me to help him understand material from the courses. Even though I responded about to half of the calls it still boggles my mind how the hell does he think this is ok to do. To me it’s just common sense, I love to help people, but man, the fact that he only cares about the courses around exam season and then expects me to send him notes and to be available to explain him what he doesn’t understand makes me go insane. I guess it’s about time to implement these strategies xD.
@FlyingMonkies325 “I feel like he was just hugely taking advantage of you here and maybe you should reconsider helping him at all...” Honestly yeah, I think I would be lying to myself if I said that I don’t feel used. I mean I have heard him “jokingly” say he doesn’t need to take notes because he has someone send him when he needs to. It’s pretty much self-explanatory right? He knows he needs to take notes but won’t do it most of the time because he’s just lazy (from my pov). Naturally, it’s a burden to help someone so frequently when you know he doesn’t make much effort into things. “One of the ways you know when to set boundaries is when people avoid making the effort they should be doing or in the way they're behaving they act like they can't do or understand things.” Man, this one hit’s, you described exactly what I feel his behavior has been… So yeah, I need to slowly implement some strategies, while trying to create some distance from him, because I don’t think I deserve this, nor anyone. I know the information I have given here is very limited and yet you made an insightful and helpful comment, so thank you, I appreciate you.
@FlyingMonkies325 “Glad i could help🙂I've been there so many times myself back in high school where i would do something for someone or give something and then they just took it and either didn't appreciate it and didn't give back, or kept asking for more even when i told them it would be a 1 time thing or that i can't all the time.” - I relate a lot with your high school experience too. I don’t think there’s nothing wrong with benefiting from a relationship with someone, but like you said, it’s a two way street, and although this individual reciprocates in some way (not academically), I feel like it’s just to maintain me relatively close to him, because I’m useful to him. I’m lucky enough to have a group of classmates who I can count on to help each other out when needed, but they are much more than that, they are friends, they are people I can count on besides academic related stuff. Knowing you have a genuine connection with these people, while we respect each other boundaries (at least that’s how I feel like) makes me want to help them with the best of intentions when they need to. “What he said "jokingly" that he doesn't need to take notes because he has someone send him when he needs to is so awful... that's just really mean and cold knowing you can hear him, nah that dude needs a lesson in humility BIG time he doesn't even deserve an explanation if you were to cut him off. He needs to go figure things out for himself and if he tries to blame you for failing that would just be super narcissistic, he's treating you like the nerd who he gets to do his homework.” - In that moment, my consideration for him decreased significantly, and it definitely made an impact, since I remember it so vividly even though it happened a few months ago. And maybe I’m already biased towards not liking him at all because I’ve seen him do and say some questionable things, (judging by what would be my moral values if that makes sense) but that’s a whole another story. At this point this may feel like I’m ranting, which to be honest I kind of am, sorry about that xD. “That stuff happened so much to me that i learned to use that strategy by getting people to make some effort into things in some way like figure out what they need to ask first and gathering everything before they ask and then send it all to you in an email or something else... setting that boundary that i'm not going to do everything for them and they need to communicate what they need. It calls them on their bluff from the get-go if they don't intend to make any effort into things if i were to help them lol not doing it... it's a two way street and i'm not doing their homework lol.” - I have been trying to do the same, but I still think I can improve a lot on that. Most of the times he calls me asking for help, which is much more evasive than sending a text message, to me it makes the impression of “I need you to answer me immediately”. So the non-confrontational way I found to “work around” is ignoring some of his calls, not making me always available, and then only calling him when I can. To me the next step is expressing my dislike towards his attitude of asking for notes when he knows he doesn’t make an effort to take any. Once again, thank you for insight, I feel heard, you clearly know what I’m going through, and I also relate how you felt in high school. It’s not easy at all to deal with these kinds of problems.
@@ElliBeenie Hi :)! Yes, I would say it worked, I expressed some discontent with the way he was expecting me to be his professor, per say. He still asks me some stuff from time to time, but I'm fine with that. What happened is that he started to resort to multiple people when he needs something university related. But classwise he's now known for asking for help and not giving anything back for it.
Good video, thanks for the advice. I'm in a situation where there's just no power in my court. If I don't meet the narcissist's needs, I'm kicked onto the streets with nothing. So I've got to work to get myself out of this situation on my own while dealing with their emotional blackmail before I can shift any of the power balance. Thanks again for the help.
This is exactly the issue I had with my brother. I would set boundaries and he would not respect them. It eventually got to a point where I stopped being amiable and told him off. He responded by calling the cops and lying to them saying that I was physically abusive. If I had been better at laying boundaries without attacking him, he would probably have reacted differently. Not that I'm defending his behavior. I went no-contact with him because he is just way too toxic and I don't know how else I can deal with him at this point in my life without it severely affecting my own mental and emotional well being.
you forgot the most important thing. you (and i to be honest) NEEED more power. we NEEED it. this is for the sake of our emotional well being, and so that we can cut them off if they go overboard. i know this is hard as a child, but achieveing power is the only long term solution, since once you obtain more power in the relationship, you can FINALLY set some boundaries. i wish luck to all my fellow strugglers struggling with a bad relationship they have no power in.
So sad when parents rely on their children to meet their emotional needs, even if it’s unintentional. As an adult now, I hope one day I can move past this & learn to be a better, healthier person. 💜
I did it for my whole life. When my therapists (I've been to a rehab clinic) noticed they were treating me like I cannot set boundries and were telling me to change and be more assertive. Even though it works and is safe! But I get it. This technique doesn't really change power dynamics, it only sets you a little outside of narcisistic problems. And sometimes it still is being challanged, you usually have to remove yourself from the contact and it takes a lot of effort. But I'd rather do that than fight the lost battle all the time.
Yes I very much agree with this video. It's not exactly the same thing but something else I've noticed is people seem to expect that the person I'm setting boundaries with is going to be reasonable and responsible for their behavior. And I'm like I don't know what paradise you're living in where people are always so sane and rational! The people I deal with not so much
It’s scary how your videos show up for me as soon as I have the exact need for it. I was literally just thinking I have to learn how to set boundaries, opened youtube and saw this in my recommended
Narcissists are a curse. If you go easy on them, they will always use you to fill their disgusting needs. It is really exhausting, so the best solution in my opinion is to either cut off your relationship with them completely or ignore them and treat them as if they do not exist in order to preserve your mental health.
I have been in the threaten suicide when do not get way or you set a boundary. You have to explain you are not in an emotional space to be able to support them. You tell them to call the suicide hotline and put a phone by them. You tell them you will be back in 20 minutes and leave. If they up the threats to own life and act out you call the suicide hotline yourself and go in another room. Let them hear that you are calling because you have hit a wall.
Laying the boundaries in advanced certainly works wonders. It's surreal to hear it like this, because I've just got life experience to go off of. I've always been the kind of guy who does his own thing, and never really caters to people. I'm not a people pleaser, if someone says something stupid, I usually clap-back. I'm like Dr. House in that regard. I'm skilled enough in my career that I can get away with being an asshole, but I'm not malicious. I'm just combative if I don't agree with, or don't respect someone. Anyways, I've noticed with a lot of narcissists, is that they're "smart" enough to avoid laying pressure on me, but can lay it all on other people. Like these people KNOW what they're doing, or at least know it to the point where they're smart enough to pick and choose their victims. IT's always been really frustrating for me, because I love that kind of conflict. I LOVE tearing into Karens. The problem is, I hardly ever get to experience a Karen, because something about my behavior must mellow them out before it ever gets into a conflict. And yet, I'll always see my coworkers complain about how abusive and demanding people are. And I'm like why didn't I get that person? I would have had a field day with that. Usually, the only times I get lucky is when a coworker is getting drilled into by an abusive client, and I get to interject myself into the situation. It's ok Tiffany, I got this, why don't you take a break. ------------ As a side note, the relationship with my parents increased exponentially when I was in my late 20s, and we were fully independent and equal adults.I got along with my mom so well now. If she says stupid shit, I can just call her out on it. And she's willing to learn. I've often cited that the milestone for becoming a "real adult" was when I started Googling questions instead of calling my parents. When I fully disconnected myself from needing them, I felt truly free. It's not that my parents don't know stuff. They have lives of experience, but technology has changed so much in the last 20 years, half the advice they can give is outdated anyways, so being able to solve your own problems is a major life skill. Finally, for those who don't hate your parents -- be aware that scams targeting older and vulnerable people have become much more rampant, if they'll listen, make sure to educate them on scams. Kit Boga on UA-cam makes amazing videos, and walks through it on some of them. I got my dad hooked on Kit Boga, and now he knows how to recognize scams.
This is exactly what I have experienced. Narcs will NEVER target people like you, as someone who used to be combative I never had anyone try to "bully" me because they knew they would have a hard time. The more people pleaser I become because of toxic household and friends, the more I got bullied. When narcs know they can't and will never get a "hold" on you ( meaning power, dependance etc) they know they shouldn't mess around you
Boundaries are not set for the other person, they are set for what you are willing to put up with. Once a person steps over that boundary, I am done dealing with them. The more you give them what they want and try to appease them, the more they learn that they can keep getting what they want from you. In other words, you have to reward them for respecting your boundaries and punish them for not respecting your boundaries. Ex. Your kid wants candy and starts screaming at you. If they had asked nicely, it might have been a "Yes". But after they start screaming, you have to say "No", no matter how loud they scream or how many times they ask. If you give them candy AFTER they start screaming, you just lost and rewarded them for screaming.
This strategy is so brilliant, I’m actually kind of reeling here. Dr. K doesn’t just offer good advice, he offers advice that I have never ever heard anywhere else before.
Unfortunately, this is exactly my reaction to narcissistic abuse. I can't do it without my brain going there and it causes me to struggle to maintain my sense of self and reality- it makes it more likely for me to be manipulated. The only power I have is not be available as a person that EXPECTS me to meet every need they bring to me. I've been figuring this stuff out my entire life (thanks, mom!) and I'm in my mid-30s - I know my limits. For some of us, this isn't workable in a way that doesn't feed into retraumatization.
Lmao glad that intro sets it clear from the get go: it's different than setting boundaries to normal people where they'd understand and respect your boundaries when you make it clear about yours. These are people actively intend to destroy any sense of boundaries you might have. They aint gonna back down just because you say no. The only real boundary you can hope to gain is by having them not being able to contact you at all.
Both of my parents are like this, I have been praying for a way out for years. I am right on the edge of independence as my best friend wants to get a place with me. Then I can cut them off, and finally have the peace I deserve. They have emotionally manipulated me and my younger sister for our entire lives and every type of boundary I have tried to set has fallen short and become some horrible abuse thrown at me. My dad literally yelled at me for leaving a wet sponge in the sink after I washed all the pots. I usually wring it out and put it away but this one time I got distracted... I love them both, but I can't be treated like this any longer. Good luck to other folk out there trying to get away or set boundaries.
The narcissist getting promoted to boss was the worst one. He literally changed, became entitled, started stalking, and acting like a total jerk. Did eventually get him fired but am sure he's still making other people's life hell.
Love this video! Several people who are aware of boundaries (in fact, especially mental health practitioners) are not aware of the context where a power imbalance exists and boundaries are ineffective. I really appreciate that you highlighted how you needed to learn this outside of your traditional psychiatric training. Unfortunately for me, this video is almost two years late. I have a severely narcissistic older sister who is a psychiatrist. Our father is a surgeon and even more narcissistic. After going to therapy in secret, I had a bout of alcohol poisoning, and despite my therapist suggesting a psychiatrist (at the time I did not know my sister had trained this suggested psychiatrist), my sister literally picked and booked a psychiatrist for me to see. She wouldn't accept that I wanted to pick my own. I was depressed at the time and figured that since my therapist thought the psychiatrist was good, despite not having worked with her, that it would be okay. That was at the end of 2019. I made the mistake of shouting at my sister on Good Friday in 2021. I allowed myself to be worked up, after my brother talked down to me, and one of the longest weeks between work and a pushy friend. After the fact, I apologised over text and explained that I was angry because she and my brother were suddenly siding with my father over a 10-year long argument. My father felt that I did not phone him enough and was insufficiently available via phone call. It would be an issue, no matter how I went back to him after missing or rejecting a call. I could be on a date, asleep, presenting numbers in a meeting at work, and even if I took the call to explain that at that moment, I'm unable to speak, it would be considered rude and disrespectful. In response, despite that psychiatrist being away on leave (it was the 2021 Easter weekend), my brother and sister arrive at my new place, unannounced, and declare that I need to be admitted to a psych ward. For shouting. When I never-to-hardly-ever do that. At work and amongst my friends, I'm even known as too nice in a problematic way. They first tried to argue that I was burnt out. I deflected by saying I'll take a holiday when I deem fit (I was 29 years old at the time). Then this idea that I am not meeting responsibilities to my family/father was raised. Neither is directly relevant to my mental health. When I demanded why my sister dared to speak to that psychiatrist without my consent - or even notifying me - she claimed I blue-ticked her over WhatsApp. The psychiatrist acknowledged that beds were booked but wouldn't disclose who booked the beds. She just held the lie that "Your sister came to me as a family member", despite it being clear that my sister lied to her - and this was an attempt to downplay that MY SISTER IS A BLIMMING PSYCHIATRIST! The psychiatrist also broke confidentiality and communicated incorrect information about my sexual orientation. When I confronted my dad, he tried to pretend as if we get along perfectly fine, and that he didn't know what this was all about. But I calmy pressed and he shouted back at me that, "Over the last few years,you've grown aloof, and live your life like you're by yourself!"... He went quiet when I demanded why he or my sister didn't just ask to meet with my psychiatrist and/or my therapist with me present. He also tried to argue, that he believes he has a right to my medical information, despite that being against the centuries old long Hippokratic Oath... Setting boundaries with such people is a fool's errand, and it hurt me, for months, to hear from my therapist at the time that I "just need to set clear boundaries" and "to communicate effectively". Please do what you can to check that this context is communicated to other mental health practitioners. It's so unimaginably hurtful to be on the other end of "just set clear boundaries" with people who aren't supposed to gaslight you.
Codependency and Narcissism have been strongly correlated (as in many Narcs have codependent traits but not necessarily the reverse)--- both me and my partner have experienced domestic abuse as children, and we both tend to lean more on the codependency side but naturally we do have some narcissistic behaviors whether that be human nature related or moreso character flaws we work on. And it's been so nice being able to set boundaries with each other without the relationship ending or getting toxic.
Just the other day he asked if I could help finish up dinner after I had already told him I was doing homework at a certain time and then had a zoom class. I told him I was sorry that I didn't have anymore time to spend on dinner and that he would have to finish up the last bit without me. ♡
The most challenging boundaries to set arise when there is a difference in values. My boss believes in being available 24/7 for work. To his credit, he puts in about 85-90 hours a week and typically answers the phone on the first or second ring if he’s free, or he will call you back right away. If he reaches out to you at night, on the weekend, or at 2 AM, and you don’t respond, he will treat you as if you have done something wrong. I try to discuss my time boundaries with him regularly, but he often scoffs at my attempts. Recently, I informed him that I would be going away on a four-day weekend using paid vacation days and that I would be unplugging from everything during that time. He couldn’t grasp the concept; he literally thought I was going somewhere that made it physically impossible to be in contact (and I let him believe this, amusingly). This is the only negative aspect of my job, and it’s reaching a point where I’m considering leaving. There’s no convincing him otherwise because these are his values, and he genuinely lives by them-something I respect about him but I can't stand anymore.
Lived with a narcissistic / abusive family for a long time. With the sadistic ones, everything you say is just more ammo for them to hurt you. In the long run, we can only keep a low profile and remain invisible until they're completely out of our lives. They do work well on covert or vulnerable narcissists though - I picked up these 'skills' to survive the abuse until I could move out. The downside is, I got really good at manipulating and did it even to non-narcissistic people (friends, coworkers, partners). I had to actively disengage from the urge to manipulate, because it was almost second nature to me, lol.
I think it's simply because Dr. K monitors what topics are in demand. Even though the vocal minority is just a small sample size of the community, the demands they have can be extrapolated to the entirety of it. This could explain the observation of how a lot of the people who never asked for those videos suddenly get them at the right time, which happens a lot in other communities as well.
The narciccist often knows where to push to make you feel the most pain. The first thing anyone should ask themselves when dealing with a narciccist who likes to bludgeon you with abuse and make you feel a lot of pain is, do I have to put up with this person? I had a manager in work who was a textbook narciccist as Dr K describes, especiall the bludgeoning part, like she would just keep bringing up stuff that I wasn't exactly sure how to answer and just keep throwing it in my face to beat me down until I would just agree with her. Unfortunately, I am very senstitive to stuff like this as not having an answer to a question or making a mistake creates a huge amount of anxiety for me. Like in my case, it was just a job. I made a complaint, it wasn't taken seriously so I calmly handed my resignation and a couple of weeks before I left, she started being overly nice to me. I still never liked her. If it's a family member or a parent, that's much bigger decision, but you may be better off just cutting the person out of your life and refusing to play their silly games.
Dr. K, your mic has been sounding weird on all my devices lately. It was weird during the stream clips, but normal during the advertisement at 1 minute in. Thanks for all the great advice and info you give.
My friend is extremely narcissistic and I'm not willing to put in this much effort to make him happy, he's either going to accept the boundaries I set or I never talk to him or see him again
I had a friend who was diagnosed with BPD but she presents more as narcissistic. The emotional offloading got unbearable and was not reciprocal. In the end, I found that saying I was depressed and unable to be there, but was happy to go to the GP with her, so she could access psychological therapies, worked a treat. It was manipulative of me, I know, but I had tried honest ways of communication. By placing a social obligation onto her and suggesting ways for her to be responsible for herself, it put her in a position where I was too much effort for her. She still comes to speak with me at work, however when I start talking she walks away. I can't hear what she's saying, so I just say "I can't hear you" and carry on with my tasks. Once you emotionally detach it gets much easier. People like this are everywhere, learn to protect yourself, we don't live in fairytale land!
I hate the fact that the best strategy against a narcissist is to appease them (or remove yourself from being around them if the option is present.) It's like everyone in the narcissist's life has to carefully maneuver around this person as to not trigger a landmine.
And there's too many cases where you do not have the luxury or the option to do that
they hurt me so bad and when i finally have the courage to drop them i have to again act the same way that was hurting me? it makes me so angry, especially knowing that they will never see what they did wrong, i always be the only wrong one
@@VolkColopatrion You always have a choice and don’t let any piece of shit make you think otherwise. Yes you will deal with challenging consequences or confrontation but it feels amazing to set boundaries consistently you feel powerful and in control and I encourage you greatly to push yourself to do it even if it’s hard. Even with family a manager a colleague you have the right to your boundaries your no your emotional health.
True, but I think part of the battle is that there is no way to challenge and/or set boundaries with a narcissist in a way that will promote meaningful change. NPD is notoriously difficult to treat. They will escalate the situation, and you can open yourself up to more focused targeting. To put things bluntly, you want to escape a narcissists grasp as quickly as possible, but the only way they'll loosen their grip is to stroke their ego. Engaging defensively with them can be as equally draining as internalizing the feelings they make you feel.
As I've gotten older, narcissism has been easier to overlook. You see the attempts at validation and dominance as pathetic, especially when you can develop healthy connections or have a higher degree of empathy. You just don't have as much mental energy and time to dedicate to these situations.
its true. if you don't they'll go as far as making false accusations against you, calling the cops, and generally ruining your reputation and self esteem. They lie cheat steal.
Dealing with a narcissist is too damned exhausting.
try it with a parent for 18 years :) its soooo much fun
Yeah, the good news is it doesnt have to last forever. You'll quit that job, you'll move out, you'll get that divorce, etc. After that, you'll have the power. You can decide what that relationship looks like from there. My narcissistic parents are learning that the hard way. They thought I "had" to maintain a relationship with them no matter what they said or did to me. I don't. Every relationship is voluntary. Whatever you're struggling with, I hope you overcome it better than ever
@@razzytack once i no longer live with my mom and have to see my dad when he visits for siblings and things, ill be totally no contact
@@girlysoap9031 I'm happy for you :) Its not easy to do something like that, so prepare to roll with the punches. You'll build the life you want 👊
Exactly. Going no contact is the best option. Studies show that no contact is the group that recovers the most/the quickest
This loops back to the ultimate dilemma when it comes to narcissts for me, the only way to win is to not play the game at all. The only way to not have to deal with the inevitable toxicity and aggression is to avoid people with behavioral patterns like this. In this case, notice signs of if someone has narcisstic tendencies and cut them off before you build too deep of a connection with them. That also comes with its own problems, so it usually boils down to being a case by case basis with any new person I get to know and interact with. I'm thankful to be in a position where I'm not around people like that anymore, but I know for some it can be really bad
I think that there is a real difference between narcissistic people and people who have never been shown unconditional love as a kid and so the only way they feel loved is conditionally.
@@jansonshrock2859 I'm sorry to have to say this to you, but I have to say it. You sound very enabler-like to me. That is the way to get harmed. Do not give excuses for them, is not your place to justify their upbringing. Everyone is responsible about them selves after 20 years of age.
Tough, but true.
Narcissists are no joke, they can destroy your selfworth and your very personality leaving you without boundaries.
They will give you gifts, and promise help, and future fake you untill you are hooked, and then the devaluation and manipulation will start and never end.
I am a narcissist myself. I completely understand why you feel this way. But keep in mind that it is a spectrum too, not everyone is the same and some try to fight it, including myself. I made the decision to build a wall around me to keep others out to prevent hurting them. Lying and gaslighting is an everyday thing but I just can't control it. It's like a reflex, a part of me. Believe me I hate it too, can't live an honest life. I can't even imagine myself in a relationship so I isolated myself.
I still have friends, I talked about it so they understand. But it is still and illness and I don't like the idea that if someone turns out to be a narcissist the only way to go is to cut all contacts. We are humans too... We have feelings too. I didn't choose to be this way.
I'm sorry if you had bad experiences in your past, I imagine it's even more demanding if the person is a family member.
@@TuRmIx96 Isnt the whole point of narcissism that you dont acknowledge yourself as one
Brother I have a diagnosed narcissistic personality disorder and love everyone. Everyone loves me too. not every "narcissist" is the same. If the ego is in check we are normal, just very extroverted.
My therapist suggested to set boundaries and all hell broke loose. 6 months later i found myself desperately needing a bodyguard.
I would like to add that this is not easy even for an independent emotionally mature adult, let alone dependent parentified child who might be emotionally disregulated themselves and with an ever present dread of the problematic person unleashing their wrath for setting a boundary. This is imho emotional intelligence 2.0 and god bless anyone going through it.
YES THIS. But it forces you to become even stronger. The average person doesn't get this. But the highly sensitized is forced into super powers....
Short of boundaries, administering a pimp slap can be cathartic
and that's where imaginative friends or roleplaying or writing fanfictions will become handy from the get go
Your comment made me tear up. Thank you for writing it. ❤️
@@hspinnovators5516 Most of the time I would rather have the emotional IQ of a potato than bear an advantage that shouldn't have to be used in first place.
The problem is not only the boundaries... It’s the mixture of gaslighting, humiliation, projection, that they make you feel like an object AND the lack of boundaries.
The best way to set them with a narcissist is to go no contact, like with my father.
I'm not there yet with my parents, but slowly progressing towards the no contact policy
Yeah, this video can be somewhat useful until you're able to get out. I hope he will do one on understanding the manipulation techniques to better navigate them in the meantime.
I think I’ve only ever met one narcissist, and my stomach sinks everytime I realize that narcissists are parents too… and that their children deal with then every day. Good luck to you both!
That exactly explains one of my last bosses, and yet i felt guilty for leaving that job for no reason other than my bosses gaslighting.
My father is also...
taking the blame doesn't help in most situations, maybe with the benign narcissists... but for all of those that I met, it just makes them feel even more entitled towards you because either
1-they "forgive you" with the expectation that this is a free pass for not taking blame next time THEY do something f'd up because how can you not just forgive them like they did for you?
2- they'll do it again and get more and more needy and greedy because they "did nothing wrong" since "you said yourself that it's your fault"
3-they see you taking the blame as a confession of being weak/stupid and they now feel entitled to insult you either in your face or to everyone who knows you.
Plus, repeatedly taking blame over things you have nothing to do with, especially as a child/teen, just trains your mind to think that everything is your fault all the time and to take blame to avoid potential harm instead of solving situations and conflicts by properly discussing the issue. And good luck for deprogramming that shit, I'm still working on it after years of going no contact.
Wholeheartedly agree! Dr K does highlight that one should get away when and if they can.
The other issue is realising that too late. Before I was aware of the narcissism in my family, a few good friends told me to go no contact. I didn't because "it's your family" and after the one rare occasion where I exploded in rage - without saying anything threatening - they betrayed my trust with them, my psychiatrist and ultimately my own gut.
It remains humiliating and showed me that going no contact was the only way forward.
100% all of this. I usually get really good thinking material from this channel, but that bit made me recoil. That shit didn't work with my ex-dad when I was a kid and left me with the exact problem you have. He couldn't even resist the temptation to try those tactics when I gave him a "listen and cooperate or I disown you" ultimatum. And the second I acknowledged that I know things were rough for him, he took it, ran with it, and stopped trying to meet me halfway.
I agree 100%. Setting boundaries, just to weaken them as in „Oh sorry it’s my fault I won’t talk to you, but I’ll call you first thing in the morning“ is going to result in no difference honestly.
You’re still obliging to the demands of the narcissist, and taking the „blame“ of your newfound boundaries on yourself, which in turn will just create a bether disposition to be guilt-tripped.
Setting boundaries just to take the blame on yourself and then afterwards go back on your boundaries, to fulfill the whish inside the power disbalance sounds totally backwards to me.
Further on: Annahilation of contact towards a narcissistic person may be required in some people, as hard as this may sound. Sometimes you won’t ever get through towards a person, no matter how hard you try, so cutting the contact ist just the most selfpreserving act. Because even if you are fighting towards a bether relationship, the actions you take are still about them. It’s like the analogy of first swimming in the same direction as the flow (being the control of the narcissist) just to wake up and try to take control back and swimming in the opposite direction of the stream (fighting toward a bether relationship). But what is when this swimming against the stream doesn’t lead to nothing? Then you are not only still inside the water, but also fighting upstream (you drain even more energy). There is a third option: crawling out of the water. Because being stuck inside still makes it about them, no matter the direction.
I hope my analogy somewhat illustrated what I mean with preserving one‘s self and cutting contact.
Lastly: I won’t imply that being outside of the water is a long term strategy in dealing with narcissists. Especially if those people matter to you. Sometimes you get to the end swimming against the stream. Sometimes it is worth fighting and crawling to get back what is meant for you.
Sometimes you will find back to your loved one, and find peace after troubling times, and sometimes this endeavour is incredibly rewarding.
You have to decide for yourself.
And going back on your boundaries, as this video discussed is not the way in my eyes.
@@dasding2020 i think your anology makes a lot of sense!
Dr k said this is what you do if someone has power over you. This is the option in the worst case scenario where going no contact is not an option. Eventually you want to rid that person from your life but dr k describes how you can make the situation slightly better temporarily.
If you're a kid trying to set boundaries with your narcissistic parent that may work, however if your boss or partner is a narcissist you're better off leaving or fighting back then enabling their abuse, cause it's just gonna continue... Kids can't really choose their parents, but as an adult, you have a choice!
Agreed, been dealing with a narcissistic boss for the last two years. I've been applying for different jobs for 9 months and can't get even an interview. My nightmare boss is constantly threatening to cut my hours even more than she already has and gets genuine enjoyment out of threatening staff. I don't consider that I even have a job. I've witnessed this psychotic woman physically assault someone and get away with it.
This is good advice Dr.K, but my experience with this is that emotionally-dependent people will often move the goalpost in regards to their feelings of resentment. For example, I have a sister who gets upset if I visit home for a few weeks, but also spend a few days with my friends. She has said that she feels that "You think they're more important than me", despite me spending more than 5 times the amount of time with her than with them. At the same time, I know from experience that she would probably also be upset if I visited home for 3 weeks, and also spent 2 days with my friends. It can help to take a bit of the stakes out of the exchanges by putting your boundaries on the table, but the issue is that emotionally-dependent people are often illogical and feel that they need to be the center of attention at all times.
What's really helped me is detaching somewhat from my sister's reactions in the firstplace. Setting boundaries with her helps, but ultimately I can only control my own actions, and my own feelings to some extent. I know logically that it isn't my job to never see my friends again so my sister can feel secure that she's more important, and only through detaching from my sense of guilt and shame around that was I able to find some peace.
In the end, some people are never satisfied, and it isn't your job to make them happy with your life decisions. Especially in the case of family.
What about telling her straight up that you don't know how much you actually miss her because the sense of guilt she has induced in you overwhelms the other feelings. Perhaps then she will understand that she needs to give you more space in order for you to go to her out of genuine feelings. That's the only way she would feel like she's actually important to you.
@@Desimere Doubtfully. This is all rooted in childhood trauma. Being afraid of abandonment, neglect, rejection, etc. Obviously communication is important, but from my experience unless those wounds are healed then she won't understand why she's acting the way she is. Most of us carry some level of these wounds. Some deeper than others. It's something we have to heal ourselves. Only then will we be independent and emotionally able to regulate ourselves. Not needing other people to do it for us. Unless we were lucky getting the needs met growing up, for secure attachment style.
She's family, but it's not your job. You got to do whatever is right for you. Obviously healing the relationships is what we all want, but first every individual has to heal. I obviously don't know you, nor your sister. You seem like you are quite self aware and want the relationship to work. Could be worth letting her know about inner child work. If she truly wants to have a deeper relationship that stuff is so important.
@@JamieR you’re exactly right! If she doesn’t heal her childhood trauma wounds around abandonment, and feeling secure then it wouldn’t matter if 100% of the time was spent with the sister. She’d still find something to complain about that she perceived as indicative that she’s not important eg “yes you spent 100% of your time with me on this visit, but you never asked me about my dietary preferences, it was all about you; I became vegan 3 months ago, which you would have learned if my thoughts and opinions mattered to you at all”. 😢 Hou cannot win. They have to do the work, heal the wounds, learn how to do a reality check, learn how to regulate their emotions, and how to communicate. It’s a syllabus of mindfulness, DBT, ACT, NVC, and other skills. Best wishes 😊
Unfortunately this video doesnt really cover your situation because you're siblings. If you're not depending on your sister for anything then she doesnt really hold any power over you. You have the ability to take the more direct approach or method and not give into her behaviour.
This advice would be more akin to if you were living with your sister and depended on her for a roof over your head and she was pulling that whenever you tried to leave the house.
Thank you. I was looking for this answer!
Something I've always wondered is how any narcissist parent can, as you say, not give a crap about your boundaries (which is basically saying (I think) that they don't give a crap about your thoughts or feelings about ANYTHING, really), but somehow expect things to turn out well between the two of you in life. Do they just not think about this at all? Is this something that separates narcissists from the rest of us? I would never be so presumptuous as to think that ANY person on this planet would not only tolerate shitty treatment from me, but also LIKE me despite it all.
They don't think they're doing anything shitty. They cannot allow themselves to truly reflect on their behavior- their egos can't handle it.
~The thing is, Narcsissists don't believe they do anything wrong, and when something bad happens it's everyone's fault but their own.
For example, my mother will flip out at me for `anything small, and I will tell her to sto p or something, and she will go into victim mode telling me to stop treating her like trash and this is why we cannot have a relationship, blah blah blah.
They go from attack dog, to `beaten puppy in a matter of an instant, all because you questioned what they are doing and why.
Some of them need to be reminded of that to understand. I've seen abusive parents stopped immediately when the child (oftentimes already teenagers) threatened them that they're going to treat them the exact same way (or go no contact) when they become old and powerless. My mom said that to my grandma, and it was only after that she stopped beating her. It has worked on some of the other parents too (it was the grandparent who reminded the parents that the kids are going to have revenge on them after they grow up).
I agree (also with replies from others above). I even think some do see the anguish on their child's face (at any age), think they're too sensitive or "tough shit, I'm right and they have to learn!", and then completely miss the reality of the situation: regardless of right or wrong, that kid is going to hate you forever. I just wonder if they're incapable of seeing that, again, regardless of how they feel about it.
@@brianzembruski5485 they don't see their kids as human beings the same as they are, but as extensions of themselves. The same goes for the partner etc. Your own hand won't go no contact if you punch a wall and it starts hurting. The narcissist won't expect you to leave because they're not really aware you're your own person with your own free will.
Journal, Journal, Journal. Write EVERYTHING down. The Doc is right and if you're listening to this and thinking "Man, this sounds like a LOT of work..." it is and it will and the way Narcissists can be is if you slip up or they get wind on what you're doing it can get ugly.
My advise, sadly from personal experience, is to as mentioned, Journal what happened so you always have a way of going back and reminding yourself what actually happened not what the Narcissist brainwashed you to think what happened, make sure you talk to someone you feel you can trust and won't tell the Narcissist and have an escape plan. You need to be thinking "If Mum/Dad throw me out of the house, where do I go?" If that does happen, make sure you read your journal to remind yourself of your journey with them, what they asked you to do, what you said, how you felt because once they've thrown you away they'll try and get you back and try to make you feel that it was your fault, no matter what happened.
It won't be a nice journey but at the end of it you'll be stronger for it and that strength came from you, not them for doing whatever.
As someone who grew up with an insanely narcissistic dad, hearing you so succinctly put into words the techniques I had to unconsciously learn through years of emotional guilt and tears is really rewarding. I hope everyone watching this realises how useful these tips are
I was surprised to realize how I do every single thing he mentioned with everyone in my life all the time. From taking responsibility for not being able to help all the way to giving alternatives to getting their needs met.
I have only recently began to learn how to resolve conflicts without doing all that, though being confrontational is a skill all of its own I realized.
People dont understand that we sometimes have homocidal thoughts about our dads. Thats how much anger we feel and its all their fault. If we hurt them, then they stop . But I cant hurt them like I can hurt someone on the street, they're our dads. And they know this and use it against you, so you start fantasizing "hmm what if I say no, then just grab this and knock it on his head?" on morning.. It gets deep into resentment, at least for me with narcs.
Yes! I have developed these same strategies.
Yo wait you also feel the burning desire to physically hurt the narc? I thought I was just losing it.@@harambe1331
The best thing I found out to set boundaries naturally, subconsciously and without any behavioural effort, is to ask oneself "How do I feel about this person? How do I feel about what this person says to me?"
If you have the answer, and sit with that feeling, it removes insecurities. More often than not, you can safely feel disgust, which is most of the time enough to emotionally protect oneself. And you can really deconstruct everything with that.
Through that, your behaviour will naturally protect you and shift you as an uninteresting supply. You let your subconscious and emotional fortitude do all the job.
@@Rhinoch8 really appreciate this line of thinking, thank you. Should be helpful in simplifying it further
It's so annoying that there are people in the world who get offended just because of your personal boundaries! As if you're not supposed to do what is best for yourself, as if you're supposed to bend so far until you are on the floor being stepped on while the person who is stepping on you feels better! 🙄🥴 If the only way a person can feel better is stepping all over someone else then they don't deserve friends!
Sometimes I like to push the boundaries of people not because I want to walk on them but I just think they need to think deeper than they actually are. On the other hand I have to be careful to not push them too much that they will hate me for it. I'm talking more about people that complain about a problem but doesn't seems to understand the problem well. It's like they complain just to complain.
@@wayne9287 Thank you for sharing your thoughts! If you don't mind, would you explain to me how you pushing someone else's boundaries can make them think deeper? Exactly what do you mean by that? How does that work?
Narcissists are everywhere, and often times, they can definitely go way past their limits. Thanks for this video. Keep up the good work.
Yea they can also be my parents, both of them!! Yay ^^
~parental issues~
Isn't it like a spectrum tho? EVERYBODY has it to a degree. Depends on anything really, even good weather
@@vexling111 not really. It's a normal human trait healthy in the right dose, but it becomes a baked in disorder when it governs everything they do. It's a coping mechanism
When dealing with narcissists, this kind of predicament where you're either forced to do what they want right now OR compromise and do what they want later, NEVER feels like you're setting boundaries even when it technically might be slightly setting boundaries.
It's just you never really win, you are still playing their game on their terms. It's just a matter of how.
It's exhausting to even think about..
I agree and this video is pretty triggering because of that. We all know though that you can't win with a Narcissist as they want us as door mats and they don't like it when we say no. Really the better option is to limit or don't have them in your life at all. I do know this though that this video is basically for someone in a situation where they are trapped with a narcissist and they can't leave and so have this unbalanced power dynamic (e.g. a child still at home or an adult living with a Narc, or adult is still emotionally dependent on Narc)
Any type of dependency on the Narc is them having power over us. A person who is financially, socially and physically and emotionally independent will find boundaries a lot easier as they can basically say 'bye' and mean it. A Narc has got power when we go back. A lot of us do have to go back for something and the Narc knows that.
An example is my Narc dad knows I don't visit or go back for him anymore but because I care about my mum. He knows my love for my mum is leverage and a vulnerability and so he will exploit this to get what he wants. So even when he guilts me about my mum, I still have to set that boundary and reassure myself that my mum will be okay and I am not wholly responsible for her anyway.
I’ve tried these things, but he pushed all boundaries. He would fight, argue and manipulate to get his way. His way. If it’s not exactly what he wants he will act difficult until he gets his way.
Well that certainly happens. The word narcissist is overused, but, if we take someone who is narcissistic but don’t have (or🤷🏻♀️ may, we don’t know) a narcissistic personality DISORDER, there is a whole range of narcissistic behaviors and a whole range of how severe they are. The examples dr K says here may work great on people who are very self centered, slightly narcissistic. In your case it’s not enough. And in some cases, maybe yours - I don’t know but it sounds like it - you can never get it to work; they’re simply not able and/or interested. Hope you’re ok.
Same. Over the years I tried everything with my dad. Keeps pushing until he gets what he wants even if it causes me to be sick for weeks. Tried with a therapist, she doesn't want him as a client.
No contact it is....
@@justbuns6404 yeah, therapy won’t help. Took my husband to multiple therapists. There is a reason why most therapist don’t want to work with them. They are very difficult and entitled. My husband left and me and cheated on me because I didn’t want to move out of state with him even though we literally had no money. He cheated because I was too busy dealing with Postpartum and taking care of 4 kids while he went to “work”.
Now he’s trying to force time with kids that he ignored while here.
It’s hell trying to keep boundaries with a person who really doesn’t respect them. And I don’t have the energy to do the same thing back. I have the grey rock because we have kids together
Sounds like my dad. He’s out of the picture now, got new kids with his new wife. He left me alone after that, good riddance. Some people say “but he’s your dad”. So what? Do I have to live a life feeling inadequate and like a failure because of a bully father? No thanks. Blood is not always thicker than water.
He probably watches Dr K too so he knows your trickery
I'm glad you made the point you did in the beginning. Self help and life advice types present "setting boundaries" as a magic solution to taking control of your life. In reality it can more so act like a filter for who truly respects and appreciates you, and who is going to just take you for granted and possibly abuse you.
Yeah, I made this same experience too. My parents used to always call for me for everything, always for some made-up reasons.
The mantra I took up was: Stop being useful.
I embraced being a disappointment. I would even go so far as to not be on time on purpose. Like, actually being on time, then waiting another 10 minutes before I'd walk up the rest of the way and ring the door. I did the things they wanted me to do sloppier, forgot small things, became slower. Stuff that should have been done in a day ("fix my notebook") took two weeks.
I stopped being useful, and they stopped relying on me.
I've become super aware about the relationship of usefulness with friends, and I started to draw a clear distinction between friends and acquaintances. I'm trying to never see friends as useful, and to never be useful to my friends. That doesn't mean I'm not helping, or I'm not taking part in their lives. I just refuse to be a means to an end. If I'm there and helping, I'm doing it because I want to.
And if somebody starts to up-end that relationship, implicitly or explicitly demanding your usefulness, you just slowly let it grind to a halt through malicious compliance.
I can see how that works but really that is basically becoming a covert Narcissist yourself as they do this do were they are studiously inept so you don't ask them for anything. I personally dont view becoming a narcissist in retaliation as a 'win'.
What a beautiful lesson learned from a horrible environment. I had never thought about this before. Thanks for sharing ❤
It's a truly bizarre feeling hearing Dr K lay out the same steps I figured out and used to deal with my own narcissistic mother when I was 13... But also, I can confirm this does work.
Your comment makes me see how it is funny that people (who are currently not under this power dynamics) misinterpret dr k advice.
It is not to simply suck up to narcisist (albeit it sort of is) but it is the baby steps needed to grow our boundaries.
If people who need this could actually give a shit about the narc, then it would be like the example where Dr K can say "sorry bro" to a pacient who demands having medication right now.
Which means "you" have equal or greater power and can even go no contact with no consequences.
Used to have this friend that would act like he was my best friend. Interested in all the things i show interest in and tries to participate as well. I noticed he would go through this cycle over and over again. There would be something he wanted from me, and instead of asking he would pretend to be interested in whatever i was at the time to get in close. Whenever he realizes he's not going to get the secret goal he wanted he then weaponizes the friendship and uses everything he can against you. I let the guy stay at my house several times because he's always couch hopping. I noticed without fail whenever i say "Ok times up man, not sure where you're gonna go but times up here" then all of a sudden he's mad at me for 10 other reasons and uses everything he can against you to make you the piece of shit in his story. Far as im concerned, some juice just isn't worth the squeeze. Im not a psychiatrist and i shouldn't have to be just to have a friend.
This reminds me of myself. I'm not a narcissist (not a traditional one at least) but I noticed this toxic trait in me. Whenever I'm feeling deeply hurt from having a conversation with my best friend (without him doing anything wrong at all) my mind immediately and automatically comes up with a million unrelated reasons of why I hate him and those reasons feel extremely valid at that moment. Of course I never say those things out loud to him because I know those are not my real thoughts
Set behavioral expectations, set consequences and tell them in advance. Make your plan in advance and keep the pieces in place. - need somewhere to go? Separate bank accounts? Your exit strategy? Decide what you will do *in advance* and then follow through. It doesn't matter what they say- behavior tells the truth of a person's intentions. And all behavior is goal oriented. You have to love yourself enough to value your own survival over discomfort.
I think this really shows why hierarchy is such a tragedy, people shouldn't be afraid to set boundaries with their bosses. Everyone in the work place should have some level of control.
Sent this video to my family group chat. I used this exact approach with my mom before I stopped speaking with her about 2 years ago (as did most of my family). This really helped recontextualize a lot my experiences dealing with her.
That said, as you can see from the above, it didn't work well enough, to the point that I now do not talk to her at all. But if you *have* to be around someone who is narcissistic, I can definitely confirm this approach can work really really well. There may come a time, however, that cutting off contact with someone simply might be the better choice. I already had my own apartment, my own job, my own insurance, my own phone plan, my own car, etc., so I wasn't taking on any economic burdens by doing so. I would advise anyone to take those factors into account before taking such drastic action, but if you're able to, I wouldn't beat yourself up over it either. Some people simply are not worth the effort, even if they are family. If you think they *are* worth the effort, though, or you don't have the option of leaving, then Dr K's advice seems very solid to me.
Well said, and I agree! Dr K's approach is a good shortterm solution, but even if the solution is achieved, it's not futureproof. There WILL be a time where the narc will come to you again and again. It's better to use that same effort on actively changing one's situation than perpetuate the same old dynamic (even if it can only be diffused in the short-term, it's never really resolved). Narcissists don't change unless they are forced to take a good, hard look at themselves which is rare.
I'd go out of the limb and say trying to change or heal a narcissist is futile. It's their job which they rarely if ever want to do
@@physicianskitchen Hahahahaha Useless Useless Useless, really stupid thing to try to do, just leave, the only one that can help a Narcissist is the Narcissistic itself but they are never the problem, it's you, Run, they'll get distracted with someone else eventually.
@@-Chrome- enter psychedelics followed by some hard-core innerchild healing, yes led by the broken narc themselves with or without support.
Have to agree - you've made an important distinction around when it may or may not work.
I see you. I had to go no contact with my family in 2021. I'm still a wreck. Realising that even techniques like this won't always work but having their voices stuck in your head... It's tough - but well done!
I have used a harsher method on my mom once I became financially independent: I let her know my honest thoughts on everything all in one day, listened to her have an anger outbreak and then stoped talking to her. I admit I have some years of resentment piled up and I need to talk to a psychiatrist.
I’d like to know about other people’s experiences regarding going no contact with their narcissistic family members. Has the narcissist reached out to you or is the narcissist indifferent about it?
I’d like to know about other people’s experiences regarding going no contact with their narcissistic family members. Has the narcissist reached out to you or is the narcissist indifferent about it?
My narc aunt regularly tries to convince me to go back to live with her, but her reasons only benefit her.
- So she can be close to me
- So she can supervise me
- So we can hang out together
- So I can help her with groceries
I always say "No that's okay, I'm happy with my husband. No, I don't want that in my life, thanks."
At first she tries to sound sad, but eventually she starts shrieking of how ungrateful I am after all she did for me and hangs up
@@TheStarrySky-sb9df All same with me.
But...I stopped thinking of her immediately, I was to occupied with my probles, job, kid etc.
My mygrene (from 5yrs old) stopped!!!!!!!
I forget she existed.
AI horror "mom"
...She said: "If you're not my child I would destroy you."
For facts, for truth?????
Can confirm this.
A psychologist gave advice on setting boundaries, which made me realize my communication skills weren't the reason for family members crossing my boundaries.
I was lucky and able to run from home. The narc has been very needy, and it's given me more power over them than I can handle.
You have to be careful in this position. If you abuse your control over them, you are an abuser. And it won't be only towards them.
We have to set boundaries with people in general. Not just narcissists. I think the internet has thrown the word narcissist around way too much. My ex and I had a lot of toxic elements of our relationship and upon looking for clarity, I began to label her a narcissist, someone with BPD, etc. But in reality it's not true. She's not perfect but neither am I. It's definitely not good to label people like that. I've been no contact from her for almost two months and it's so we can both heal. I have to work on myself and be the best person I can. I can't change her or talk her into doing anything she doesn't want to do, but neither of us deserve to suffer. I only want the best for her and myself, and I am willing to do this very painful and hurtful work in order to come out on the other side much healthier.
This whole narc thing and other psychology "stuff" it's a trend. But if you talk to a psychology professional, they'll tell you that we have a bit of everything. The point of dr. K's video is setting boundaries. I've dealt with people who aren't full on narcissists and showed one or two traits of it. And while they are what they are, I also know that some times, it's us who "build" that kind of "traits" on others. The video is about trying to help people who have trouble setting boundaries. That's why he mentioned even being away, still having emotional troubles setting them.
@@SolusAgomor yeah narcissism is a personality trait. everyone is narcissistic on some level. but Narcissists are people who have above average levels of Narcissism with a bunch of other traits.
Thanks!
I read a book in high school called boundaries which was basically a guide on how to do what Dr. K just said. I can tell you right now, it has saved me countless times. Either from people pressuring me at work, pressuring me with family, or even my partner pressuring me. Setting healthy boundaries is good for everyone.
This video like really understands the issue,
what i did with my boss is - I would note down the work and i would do it later- but i had to get work done - just in a different time than i was doing earlier and i could see it really confused them and just that confusion saved me so many times.
I keep getting the toxic elders contacting me saying “just talk to us again, one day we will die” instead of “we see and understand that we intentionally casted you out and projected our sh!t onto you over a long period of time , and though it is inconvenient for us to acknowledge we understand that you feel things and will offer you autonomy no matter how we feel about it now.”
I feel like the parent here. I feel like the mom. I am childless. Send help lol.
7:58 i understand this approach but i hate it so much. I hate catering to someone who uses me. I hate putting my self down to improve the mood of someone who would never lift a pinky to help me
Wonderful video, dr. K! I would love to see more on boundaries. Boundaries with emotionally exhausting friends is a great topic! How to convey you still care about them but you can’t be there for them 24/7
Thanks for the hard work and Emotional Support. ❤
It's both funny and hurtful at the same time to find out through these videos and therapy with my psychiatrist that the person who called me a narcissist and turned everyone against me was in fact, the actual narcissist projecting himself upon me for stealing his spotlight. Time is definitely your friend in these cases, the people who the narcissist turns against you will always realize they got manipulated, either when they become the narcissist's next target or through other groups in common where the narcissist has no spotlight or control to manipulate the majority of the opinions.
I like your ideas, and I think you are spot on with the issue with therapists. I consulted a few, and when I tried to set boundaries, I found myself on the receiving end of their massive, unjust boundaries. I did end the relationship, but I sort of had to do so.
If a person can avoid a narcissist, he/she/they should. Even with this technique (and I've for it at this time), you're sort of telling them that they are right, and you are saying that you are the issue. Plus, it makes a person sick. This is a solution to be used in the short-term, hopefully. I mean that a job shouldn't be toxic. It's so tough. Good job.
The healthiest way to set boundaries with narcissists is to completely cut them off from your life
This is the way.
I’d like to know about other people’s experiences regarding going no contact with their narcissistic family members. Has the narcissist reached out to you or is the narcissist indifferent about it?
@@victorialamas551They will not like it. Narcissists see the world differently. But that shouldn't stop you from seeking a better life.
They may keep trying to reach out to you. My recommendation is to not let them be in control. Make yourself look good, get some nice clothes, take good care of your hair, etc. I'm saying this because they tend to be obsessed with personal image. Talk to them in the most respectful but direct way possible. If they realize that they will look bad if they push you to a decision, they will back down and think of another way.
When explaining your decision, do not point it out as their problem or an issue that you have. Here are a few examples:
- If you say "You are annoying so I don't want to talk to you.", they will see that you are putting them as the problem and try to justify themselves.
- If you say "I don't enjoy this relationship and want to move forward.", you are describing it as a problem that you have. That will make them try to solve your problem, even if you don't want it.
- Instead, I would suggest something like "I'm currently very busy with work and my tasks. Because of that I don't have time to be meeting with you, right now, etc.". They can't tell you how to do your work. They can't tell you not to fix your problems because that will make them look bad. This type of distance is what I would suggest. Polite and with no emotion whatsoever.
Narcissists are obsessed with personal image. So, since they like to manipulate others, we can use their tools against them. If we can set the situation in a way that they will look bad if they break your boundaries, they will behave.
Good luck and stay safe.
@@victorialamas551once they realise they have no use of you anymore, they tend to ignore your existence. At least that’s what happened to me, and I’m glad about this!
This not always realistic.
Setting up boundaries was a game changer for me. Stopped communicating with toxic father, stopped engaging, stopped defending, just stopped EVERYTHING. Made me feel about my everyday life much better.
Set up boundaries with my ex (we were still "friends", her initiative) - she stopped getting free supply from me (about which she was *really* disappointed) - she finally left me alone.
Then she tried to get back and bombard me with her thoughts about our relationships, how did it suck etc. This time I did defend myself, which made her lose her ground, since usually I wouldn't confront her.
So, some narcissists require defense, and some not. I cannot leave my father right now, so not engaging is a better strategy. The boundary is - my life is my life, he is not welcome, he will not be listened to.
For ex - some defence was necessary, since she would try to hoover me from time to time, but the boundary is basically the same - she is not welcome in my life anymore.
People who have been struggling, learning, and practicing boundaries with narcs can tell this video is a true gem of knowledge. I hope millions will watch this and put in practice what you are saying.
People who is just starting to learn about narcissism will probably think you are exaggerating.
Thanks Dr K, this was very much straight forward and I appreciate it immensely.
it mostly helps to not take them serious inside of your mind and to have no hesitation to lie at them whatsoever (for lies they are never able to uncover that is) and to be ready to wanting to treat them very poorly (because they make you think not being a slave is you actively killing them) and distancing yourself from them so far that you dont value them at all and just value your own survival.
I am having a hard time setting boundaries with my mom, I would never think of my mom as being a narcissist, but when I thought about it more and sort of remember how she would word things and how she would try to manipulate me to do what she wanted me to do, it made perfect sense, The last time I tried to set boundaries with her, it didn't end well and of course, she was crying and acting like a child and was trying to make me feel sorry for it, and believe me, I did feel sorry, it hurt so bad because my wife was telling me how sometimes when my mom would get my wife alone with her, my mom would talk to my wife about her weight, how she should be careful and she should manage it, and it would make my wife feel like absolute shit, and knowing that made my blood boil because my own mother is treating my wife like this, like she is her daughter, when all my wife needs is a friend, it made me mad and upset. I haven't talked to her since. The problem with trying to set boundaries with my mom is that she doesn't give a rat's ass about them, she doesn't think there needs to be any boundaries set because she's my mother and she would never hurt me or my wife, and honestly, I'm not really sure about that anymore, it doesn't feel that way, and the more I try and defend myself and my wife, it's like I'm pushing her away and I don't want to lose my mom. It's so hard wearing my heart on my sleeve and having to set boundaries with my mom when she doesn't understand why and doesn't believe she did anything wrong. As someone else has said, it seems like the only REAL solution is to cut all contact with them, and I don't know that I can.
When it hits you, it really just hits you like a ton of bricks. Been there, man. Damn near word for word, too.
The part about not wanting to lose her, especially. Over time I came to realize that wasn't really accurate, as you can't lose something you never had.
The other thing I would add is that by establishing boundaries, all you are saying to your mother is "respect me as a individual with my own wants and needs" and your mother's responses are just different versions of "nah".
You're not at risk of losing her because you're doing something harmful, she's at risk of losing *you* because she refuses see you as a person. That's not your fault
Not advice but nice chrono cross pfp
This is pure gold. I've been told to and tried to set boundaries just as much as they have been instantly ignored without a second look.
Thank you Dr K
Setting boundaries is easy. Enforcing them is the difficult thing. Because it often takes sacrifice. And most people simply want their cake and eat it too.
Be willing to go to jail, lose your job, be alone for a while, etc.
It's like poker. When the other players realize you aren't willing to lose your money, then you become easily exploitable. Once you CONSISTENTLY show them that you're willing to put your stack on the line, exploiting you becomes near impossible.
Painfully accurate. To them it's essentially a chicken game. They are used to people folding under their treats and manipulation, they don't expect people to actually stick to their guns long enough for them to have to change anything.
12:40 This legit happened at one of my old workplaces. Power went off. And the employee was called in on his wedding to fix it. He was allowed to go trough with the ceremony that was ongoing when he picked up the phone, but straight after that he had to come in. He had no share in the company. He was a simple middle aged hourly worker, slightly above minimum wage.
5:06 “please, stop everything you are doing and “come” and rescue me”.
People eventually need to cut narcissists out but this may be the only thing you can do until that. Make your boss get fired (if they are a middle manager) or easier: just leave. The hardest part is about being an underage child of a narcissist or worse: 2 of them. Just get away from them ASAP and work on that beforehand, maybe before them knowing about it. And thinking about narcissist parents it can be seen that it's way easier to deal with a narcissist boss in comparison.
@Bence - your last sentence is very profound. As the only child of two narcissistic-codependent parents, it is HELL! Narcissistic workers/bosses are better because your overall environment at work still has to oblige laws that the public knows about.
In private homes, only the family knows what happens behind closed doors. Yes, it IS true that narcs are meant to cut off. It isn’t a healthy relationship to have (even if you are hanging on to your boundaries). With narcs, you cannot be authentic or grow in authentically. You cannot share authentically. People like this aren’t food to be around for our longterm health whether they are a parent, friend or boss. It’s best to get away from them.
I’d like to know about other people’s experiences regarding going no contact with their narcissistic family members. Has the narcissist reached out to you or is the narcissist indifferent about it?
Your timing with these videos with what been going on in my life are impeccable ✨
I can't tell you how glad I am you're speaking about this topic.
Also, excellent advice (as maddening as it is to have to implement)
Thank you for saying this OUT LOUD, and too, what you are suggesting people do is exhausting and unsustainable.
MOST clinicians I have come into contact with DO NOT respect the boundaries of patients and clients AT ALL, particularly in contexts involving highly degreed clinicians in psychiatry... doctors, surgeons, nurses, therapists, and support staff... who entered these fields because it's far more grand and easy to play 'hero' than to keep the focus on oneself and healing ones own wounds. And they will do almost anything to prop up the fragile self-belief that they are the hero. And the overreach begins with the presumption that patients SHOULD (never true) trust a clinician because of their position.
Trust is EARNED. Healthy boundaries are reflected in the trustworthiness of others being consistently demonstrated.
And it speaks to the abuse, pervasively perpetrated and systemically permitted in your profession, that the less support system a patient or client has, the more abusive clinicians are. Because, somewhat rightly, it is assumed there will be no accountability.
I'm saving this video to watch again in the future, until I learn how to deal with my mother 🙄
I wish I learned this before, my childhood would've been, at least, slightly better. But the 90s were a mess, this info would never reach me in time...
What you do here is amazing, thank you so much Dr K. 💚
With a boss, l had to say l feel a safe in this relationship. That word means something legally and he backed down fast. After a year he got to point of trusting me. He gave me a longer leash than others on team because l was productive. I never took credit for my work and let him take the credit too…who cares. Everyone knew what l did because l worked well with others.
Yep the right people will see it...and it allows you to see the flying monkeys too...
I think this is fair advice for a person that you can't get away from in the moment; such as a boss or a family member. However, you should do everything you can to get away as soon as you can (find a new job, move out, etc). Sometimes the best way to get a point across is to ignore this behaviour entirely and cut these individuals out of your life. I guarantee a narcissist will never bring a net positive into your life; they'll only take and take and take.
Like... if my best friend would say - when I am crying and I am calling - "lets do it tomorrow", I will just say "well, tomorrow I will not need it already, it is a job of a friend - always being there for you.
Then you need to look hard at yourself, because this is a problem with you, not them. A friend is not a job. You are using them right thinking about their needs
Blaming yourself is key! Absolutely 100% the correct advice.
Yes, the most effective strategy to deescalate a Situation where they come at you aggressively. That instantly satisfies their need for superiority.
I think I desperately need to learn how to this. I’m blown away by this. My life had the ability to be drastically different than what it has been. I can set boundaries, but I can be too easily manipulated into acquiescing. This is the first time I have ever been told how it can be done.
My mom used to call for me to come help her. I would not yell back and finish what I was doing and go to her 5-10 minutes later. She would then be mad it took so long for me to come when she's yelling. I would then suggest she come up to me and ask for my help without yelling, or come help me finish what I was doing to make it faster. Her response was, "I don't want to have to come to *you*" - so literally I have no idea how I'm supposed to lay a boundary when she insists on yelling and won't see her need being met faster by coming to me. Because coming to me would be a power imbalance i guess.
This is what I used to do. It got to the point where they'd call me toxic and I'd shrug and say ok.
Once I realized I didn't have enough ability to respect enough to not constantly look and act angry, I cut them off.
That was amazing and one of the reason I started dismissing therapists: their solutions are usually nonsensical (at least in the kinds of things I've needed).
Like the bullied kid going to the principal and the principal rounding up the bullies and forcing them to shake hands and then pushing them out of his office.
This should DEFINITELY be part of EVERY therapist's formation! Diagnostic is 0% solution. It hasn't served it's purpose yet.
Yes exactly!!! That's exactly what bothered me with my therapist. She kept telling me try again to set boundaries, talk with using I not you etc but she wouldn't understand that is just doesn't work in my family. I've tried all my life. Only solution is leaving
I really liked the way this video was edited. I found the text summaries on screen helpful. Keep doing what you're doing you and your team and all of the coaches who work with you are amazing!
i feel like im ahead of these videos a few times now!! been watching since the start of the pandemic and they have definitely helped!
i think the best way toi deal with narcissists is to not deal with them. you will never "win", so dont try and play
No matter what you do it is extremely difficult to set boundaries with narcissists
They won't call you or come to you by themselves but they'll use someone else to reach you out or to make you do what they want
Both of my parents are narcissists and I am the only child
It's really exhausting to deal with them
Same my dad had most the real power and my mum hated it so if when ge did something she didn’t like (often occurred) she would take it out on my because she knew she could and if I reacted then dad blamed me and they’d both punish me then lol it’s disgusting narcissists are vermin tbh
If your grandmother narcissist doesn’t have power over you, the “revenge” to get power over you is so mean and offensive it’s not sustainable. But because they know they need their needs met they won’t stop. Going no contact is the only solution that keeps you healthy and happy or recovering to that point.
I used to be surrounded by them my whole life. My mother, grandmother and a best friend. My recent ex turned out to be one and that's why I went no contact when I left. That's also when I finally got educated on what they are, so I could remove myself from their vicinity. My ex would also pull the suicidal card every now and again when he sensed I wanted out. The last time I just rolled my eyes. Lo and behold he is very much alive and kicking, narcing around.
This video is so important, I often read on reddits like aita and relationship advice, when there's clearly a power dynamic between a parent and their kid (adult and teens) or something similar, and most of the comments say things like "you have to put your foot down, enough is enough, you have to lay your boundaries and they have to respect you". Everytime I think... no... that's not how it works.
And the parent or whatever doesn't even have to be a narcissist, they could just be self-centered and egotistical (which is different).
Sometimes it seems kind of frustrating because everyone acknowledges narcissism exists, but everyone seems to think being firm is what solves the issue, there's no just "walk away from the situation" or "try to reason with them", doing that often escalates the issue.
One thing I’m missing in this video is when it is about emotional boundaries. Last week I had my birthday and my parents took the family out to dinner. All fine, but I don’t like to be the centre of attention. So after the presents, which I thanked them for but also said I felt uncomfortable with it, I asked them to not have the waiters bring a firework. They looked at me weird and kept pushing/joking, but I stayed firm. Unfortunately, my step grandma entered the building. And immediately started about the fireworks, I again said I didn’t want it but she didn’t care. And NONE of my other family members, except my brother, supported me. Like I understand that I could’ve mentioned it before going out, but how do you handle people constantly pushing and crossing your boundaries in the moment? Also, how can I have their emotional needs met, as this play is purely: “you’re embarrassed so we’re entertained”. Because I’m in those situations a lot more..
Narcissism is something I'm constantly studying to see the best ways for going spotting it and going against it
As always this seems to be great advice. Setting boundaries has been a problem for me because I’m not very confrontational with people I don’t feel comfortable with. I ended my semester finals a few weeks ago and I had a classmate call me almost 60 times during a 3 week period asking me to help him understand material from the courses. Even though I responded about to half of the calls it still boggles my mind how the hell does he think this is ok to do. To me it’s just common sense, I love to help people, but man, the fact that he only cares about the courses around exam season and then expects me to send him notes and to be available to explain him what he doesn’t understand makes me go insane.
I guess it’s about time to implement these strategies xD.
@FlyingMonkies325
“I feel like he was just hugely taking advantage of you here and maybe you should reconsider helping him at all...”
Honestly yeah, I think I would be lying to myself if I said that I don’t feel used. I mean I have heard him “jokingly” say he doesn’t need to take notes because he has someone send him when he needs to. It’s pretty much self-explanatory right? He knows he needs to take notes but won’t do it most of the time because he’s just lazy (from my pov). Naturally, it’s a burden to help someone so frequently when you know he doesn’t make much effort into things.
“One of the ways you know when to set boundaries is when people avoid making the effort they should be doing or in the way they're behaving they act like they can't do or understand things.”
Man, this one hit’s, you described exactly what I feel his behavior has been…
So yeah, I need to slowly implement some strategies, while trying to create some distance from him, because I don’t think I deserve this, nor anyone.
I know the information I have given here is very limited and yet you made an insightful and helpful comment, so thank you, I appreciate you.
@FlyingMonkies325
“Glad i could help🙂I've been there so many times myself back in high school where i would do something for someone or give something and then they just took it and either didn't appreciate it and didn't give back, or kept asking for more even when i told them it would be a 1 time thing or that i can't all the time.”
- I relate a lot with your high school experience too. I don’t think there’s nothing wrong with benefiting from a relationship with someone, but like you said, it’s a two way street, and although this individual reciprocates in some way (not academically), I feel like it’s just to maintain me relatively close to him, because I’m useful to him. I’m lucky enough to have a group of classmates who I can count on to help each other out when needed, but they are much more than that, they are friends, they are people I can count on besides academic related stuff. Knowing you have a genuine connection with these people, while we respect each other boundaries (at least that’s how I feel like) makes me want to help them with the best of intentions when they need to.
“What he said "jokingly" that he doesn't need to take notes because he has someone send him when he needs to is so awful... that's just really mean and cold knowing you can hear him, nah that dude needs a lesson in humility BIG time he doesn't even deserve an explanation if you were to cut him off. He needs to go figure things out for himself and if he tries to blame you for failing that would just be super narcissistic, he's treating you like the nerd who he gets to do his homework.”
- In that moment, my consideration for him decreased significantly, and it definitely made an impact, since I remember it so vividly even though it happened a few months ago. And maybe I’m already biased towards not liking him at all because I’ve seen him do and say some questionable things, (judging by what would be my moral values if that makes sense) but that’s a whole another story. At this point this may feel like I’m ranting, which to be honest I kind of am, sorry about that xD.
“That stuff happened so much to me that i learned to use that strategy by getting people to make some effort into things in some way like figure out what they need to ask first and gathering everything before they ask and then send it all to you in an email or something else... setting that boundary that i'm not going to do everything for them and they need to communicate what they need. It calls them on their bluff from the get-go if they don't intend to make any effort into things if i were to help them lol not doing it... it's a two way street and i'm not doing their homework lol.”
- I have been trying to do the same, but I still think I can improve a lot on that. Most of the times he calls me asking for help, which is much more evasive than sending a text message, to me it makes the impression of “I need you to answer me immediately”. So the non-confrontational way I found to “work around” is ignoring some of his calls, not making me always available, and then only calling him when I can. To me the next step is expressing my dislike towards his attitude of asking for notes when he knows he doesn’t make an effort to take any.
Once again, thank you for insight, I feel heard, you clearly know what I’m going through, and I also relate how you felt in high school. It’s not easy at all to deal with these kinds of problems.
@FlyingMonkies325
Thankfully I'm doing fine, I'm sure I'l find a good way to do it, thank you.
Take care!
Has the advice worked for you? Since some time has gone by since you posted :) I hope so. Your classmate is/was obviously taking advantage of you …
@@ElliBeenie Hi :)! Yes, I would say it worked, I expressed some discontent with the way he was expecting me to be his professor, per say. He still asks me some stuff from time to time, but I'm fine with that. What happened is that he started to resort to multiple people when he needs something university related. But classwise he's now known for asking for help and not giving anything back for it.
Good video, thanks for the advice.
I'm in a situation where there's just no power in my court. If I don't meet the narcissist's needs, I'm kicked onto the streets with nothing. So I've got to work to get myself out of this situation on my own while dealing with their emotional blackmail before I can shift any of the power balance. Thanks again for the help.
This is exactly the issue I had with my brother. I would set boundaries and he would not respect them. It eventually got to a point where I stopped being amiable and told him off. He responded by calling the cops and lying to them saying that I was physically abusive. If I had been better at laying boundaries without attacking him, he would probably have reacted differently. Not that I'm defending his behavior. I went no-contact with him because he is just way too toxic and I don't know how else I can deal with him at this point in my life without it severely affecting my own mental and emotional well being.
you forgot the most important thing. you (and i to be honest) NEEED more power. we NEEED it. this is for the sake of our emotional well being, and so that we can cut them off if they go overboard. i know this is hard as a child, but achieveing power is the only long term solution, since once you obtain more power in the relationship, you can FINALLY set some boundaries. i wish luck to all my fellow strugglers struggling with a bad relationship they have no power in.
So sad when parents rely on their children to meet their emotional needs, even if it’s unintentional. As an adult now, I hope one day I can move past this & learn to be a better, healthier person. 💜
I did it for my whole life. When my therapists (I've been to a rehab clinic) noticed they were treating me like I cannot set boundries and were telling me to change and be more assertive. Even though it works and is safe! But I get it. This technique doesn't really change power dynamics, it only sets you a little outside of narcisistic problems. And sometimes it still is being challanged, you usually have to remove yourself from the contact and it takes a lot of effort. But I'd rather do that than fight the lost battle all the time.
Yes I very much agree with this video. It's not exactly the same thing but something else I've noticed is people seem to expect that the person I'm setting boundaries with is going to be reasonable and responsible for their behavior.
And I'm like I don't know what paradise you're living in where people are always so sane and rational! The people I deal with not so much
It’s scary how your videos show up for me as soon as I have the exact need for it. I was literally just thinking I have to learn how to set boundaries, opened youtube and saw this in my recommended
This is Gold Dr. K, you have helped me immensely. ( I've got OCD, btw) 1000x THANK YOU
Narcissists are a curse. If you go easy on them, they will always use you to fill their disgusting needs. It is really exhausting, so the best solution in my opinion is to either cut off your relationship with them completely or ignore them and treat them as if they do not exist in order to preserve your mental health.
I have been in the threaten suicide when do not get way or you set a boundary. You have to explain you are not in an emotional space to be able to support them. You tell them to call the suicide hotline and put a phone by them. You tell them you will be back in 20 minutes and leave. If they up the threats to own life and act out you call the suicide hotline yourself and go in another room. Let them hear that you are calling because you have hit a wall.
In practice if you say they have the power to make the call on life, they stop using suicide as a threat after a few times. It doesn’t work for them.
Laying the boundaries in advanced certainly works wonders. It's surreal to hear it like this, because I've just got life experience to go off of.
I've always been the kind of guy who does his own thing, and never really caters to people. I'm not a people pleaser, if someone says something stupid, I usually clap-back. I'm like Dr. House in that regard. I'm skilled enough in my career that I can get away with being an asshole, but I'm not malicious. I'm just combative if I don't agree with, or don't respect someone.
Anyways, I've noticed with a lot of narcissists, is that they're "smart" enough to avoid laying pressure on me, but can lay it all on other people. Like these people KNOW what they're doing, or at least know it to the point where they're smart enough to pick and choose their victims.
IT's always been really frustrating for me, because I love that kind of conflict. I LOVE tearing into Karens. The problem is, I hardly ever get to experience a Karen, because something about my behavior must mellow them out before it ever gets into a conflict.
And yet, I'll always see my coworkers complain about how abusive and demanding people are. And I'm like why didn't I get that person? I would have had a field day with that.
Usually, the only times I get lucky is when a coworker is getting drilled into by an abusive client, and I get to interject myself into the situation. It's ok Tiffany, I got this, why don't you take a break.
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As a side note, the relationship with my parents increased exponentially when I was in my late 20s, and we were fully independent and equal adults.I got along with my mom so well now. If she says stupid shit, I can just call her out on it. And she's willing to learn. I've often cited that the milestone for becoming a "real adult" was when I started Googling questions instead of calling my parents. When I fully disconnected myself from needing them, I felt truly free.
It's not that my parents don't know stuff. They have lives of experience, but technology has changed so much in the last 20 years, half the advice they can give is outdated anyways, so being able to solve your own problems is a major life skill.
Finally, for those who don't hate your parents -- be aware that scams targeting older and vulnerable people have become much more rampant, if they'll listen, make sure to educate them on scams. Kit Boga on UA-cam makes amazing videos, and walks through it on some of them. I got my dad hooked on Kit Boga, and now he knows how to recognize scams.
This is exactly what I have experienced. Narcs will NEVER target people like you, as someone who used to be combative I never had anyone try to "bully" me because they knew they would have a hard time. The more people pleaser I become because of toxic household and friends, the more I got bullied. When narcs know they can't and will never get a "hold" on you ( meaning power, dependance etc) they know they shouldn't mess around you
Boundaries are not set for the other person, they are set for what you are willing to put up with. Once a person steps over that boundary, I am done dealing with them. The more you give them what they want and try to appease them, the more they learn that they can keep getting what they want from you. In other words, you have to reward them for respecting your boundaries and punish them for not respecting your boundaries. Ex. Your kid wants candy and starts screaming at you. If they had asked nicely, it might have been a "Yes". But after they start screaming, you have to say "No", no matter how loud they scream or how many times they ask. If you give them candy AFTER they start screaming, you just lost and rewarded them for screaming.
It's as if narcissists are regressing to infantile stage whenever they need something.
This strategy is so brilliant, I’m actually kind of reeling here. Dr. K doesn’t just offer good advice, he offers advice that I have never ever heard anywhere else before.
Unfortunately, this is exactly my reaction to narcissistic abuse. I can't do it without my brain going there and it causes me to struggle to maintain my sense of self and reality- it makes it more likely for me to be manipulated.
The only power I have is not be available as a person that EXPECTS me to meet every need they bring to me. I've been figuring this stuff out my entire life (thanks, mom!) and I'm in my mid-30s - I know my limits. For some of us, this isn't workable in a way that doesn't feed into retraumatization.
Lmao glad that intro sets it clear from the get go: it's different than setting boundaries to normal people where they'd understand and respect your boundaries when you make it clear about yours.
These are people actively intend to destroy any sense of boundaries you might have. They aint gonna back down just because you say no. The only real boundary you can hope to gain is by having them not being able to contact you at all.
Both of my parents are like this, I have been praying for a way out for years. I am right on the edge of independence as my best friend wants to get a place with me. Then I can cut them off, and finally have the peace I deserve. They have emotionally manipulated me and my younger sister for our entire lives and every type of boundary I have tried to set has fallen short and become some horrible abuse thrown at me. My dad literally yelled at me for leaving a wet sponge in the sink after I washed all the pots. I usually wring it out and put it away but this one time I got distracted... I love them both, but I can't be treated like this any longer.
Good luck to other folk out there trying to get away or set boundaries.
Keep praying. God will deliver you. He cares for you and wants you delivered and safe. I hope you are okay and have prayed for you
He knows, this is what I always had to do to appease my ex, listen to this man and RUN, it's never going to get better, Good Luck!
Man this video could not have come at a better time for me.
The narcissist getting promoted to boss was the worst one. He literally changed, became entitled, started stalking, and acting like a total jerk. Did eventually get him fired but am sure he's still making other people's life hell.
I just learned to go no contact with them! For kids still at home, work part-time, save as much as possible and move out ASAP! 🙏🏻
Love this video! Several people who are aware of boundaries (in fact, especially mental health practitioners) are not aware of the context where a power imbalance exists and boundaries are ineffective.
I really appreciate that you highlighted how you needed to learn this outside of your traditional psychiatric training.
Unfortunately for me, this video is almost two years late. I have a severely narcissistic older sister who is a psychiatrist. Our father is a surgeon and even more narcissistic.
After going to therapy in secret, I had a bout of alcohol poisoning, and despite my therapist suggesting a psychiatrist (at the time I did not know my sister had trained this suggested psychiatrist), my sister literally picked and booked a psychiatrist for me to see. She wouldn't accept that I wanted to pick my own. I was depressed at the time and figured that since my therapist thought the psychiatrist was good, despite not having worked with her, that it would be okay. That was at the end of 2019.
I made the mistake of shouting at my sister on Good Friday in 2021. I allowed myself to be worked up, after my brother talked down to me, and one of the longest weeks between work and a pushy friend.
After the fact, I apologised over text and explained that I was angry because she and my brother were suddenly siding with my father over a 10-year long argument. My father felt that I did not phone him enough and was insufficiently available via phone call. It would be an issue, no matter how I went back to him after missing or rejecting a call. I could be on a date, asleep, presenting numbers in a meeting at work, and even if I took the call to explain that at that moment, I'm unable to speak, it would be considered rude and disrespectful.
In response, despite that psychiatrist being away on leave (it was the 2021 Easter weekend), my brother and sister arrive at my new place, unannounced, and declare that I need to be admitted to a psych ward. For shouting. When I never-to-hardly-ever do that. At work and amongst my friends, I'm even known as too nice in a problematic way.
They first tried to argue that I was burnt out. I deflected by saying I'll take a holiday when I deem fit (I was 29 years old at the time).
Then this idea that I am not meeting responsibilities to my family/father was raised.
Neither is directly relevant to my mental health. When I demanded why my sister dared to speak to that psychiatrist without my consent - or even notifying me - she claimed I blue-ticked her over WhatsApp.
The psychiatrist acknowledged that beds were booked but wouldn't disclose who booked the beds. She just held the lie that "Your sister came to me as a family member", despite it being clear that my sister lied to her - and this was an attempt to downplay that MY SISTER IS A BLIMMING PSYCHIATRIST! The psychiatrist also broke confidentiality and communicated incorrect information about my sexual orientation.
When I confronted my dad, he tried to pretend as if we get along perfectly fine, and that he didn't know what this was all about. But I calmy pressed and he shouted back at me that, "Over the last few years,you've grown aloof, and live your life like you're by yourself!"... He went quiet when I demanded why he or my sister didn't just ask to meet with my psychiatrist and/or my therapist with me present. He also tried to argue, that he believes he has a right to my medical information, despite that being against the centuries old long Hippokratic Oath...
Setting boundaries with such people is a fool's errand, and it hurt me, for months, to hear from my therapist at the time that I "just need to set clear boundaries" and "to communicate effectively".
Please do what you can to check that this context is communicated to other mental health practitioners. It's so unimaginably hurtful to be on the other end of "just set clear boundaries" with people who aren't supposed to gaslight you.
Codependency and Narcissism have been strongly correlated (as in many Narcs have codependent traits but not necessarily the reverse)--- both me and my partner have experienced domestic abuse as children, and we both tend to lean more on the codependency side but naturally we do have some narcissistic behaviors whether that be human nature related or moreso character flaws we work on. And it's been so nice being able to set boundaries with each other without the relationship ending or getting toxic.
Just the other day he asked if I could help finish up dinner after I had already told him I was doing homework at a certain time and then had a zoom class. I told him I was sorry that I didn't have anymore time to spend on dinner and that he would have to finish up the last bit without me. ♡
Best content on UA-cam hands down. Thank you.
The most challenging boundaries to set arise when there is a difference in values. My boss believes in being available 24/7 for work. To his credit, he puts in about 85-90 hours a week and typically answers the phone on the first or second ring if he’s free, or he will call you back right away. If he reaches out to you at night, on the weekend, or at 2 AM, and you don’t respond, he will treat you as if you have done something wrong.
I try to discuss my time boundaries with him regularly, but he often scoffs at my attempts. Recently, I informed him that I would be going away on a four-day weekend using paid vacation days and that I would be unplugging from everything during that time. He couldn’t grasp the concept; he literally thought I was going somewhere that made it physically impossible to be in contact (and I let him believe this, amusingly).
This is the only negative aspect of my job, and it’s reaching a point where I’m considering leaving. There’s no convincing him otherwise because these are his values, and he genuinely lives by them-something I respect about him but I can't stand anymore.
This is very sound advice for what seemed to be an impossible task. Thank you Dr. K
Just moved away for the first time from my narcissist dad, and oh boy did this video come in clutch.
Lived with a narcissistic / abusive family for a long time. With the sadistic ones, everything you say is just more ammo for them to hurt you. In the long run, we can only keep a low profile and remain invisible until they're completely out of our lives. They do work well on covert or vulnerable narcissists though - I picked up these 'skills' to survive the abuse until I could move out. The downside is, I got really good at manipulating and did it even to non-narcissistic people (friends, coworkers, partners). I had to actively disengage from the urge to manipulate, because it was almost second nature to me, lol.
This man’s accuracy with my life is terrifying
How do you know? It has only been 2 minutes since the video was posted.
@@dylanlodge4905 It was more so just the video topic that led me to believe it. This is the kind of video I needed right now
@flmejndor 💯% agree!!
@@raphaelmauny3945 that’s a compelling thought 🤔
I think it's simply because Dr. K monitors what topics are in demand. Even though the vocal minority is just a small sample size of the community, the demands they have can be extrapolated to the entirety of it. This could explain the observation of how a lot of the people who never asked for those videos suddenly get them at the right time, which happens a lot in other communities as well.
The narciccist often knows where to push to make you feel the most pain. The first thing anyone should ask themselves when dealing with a narciccist who likes to bludgeon you with abuse and make you feel a lot of pain is, do I have to put up with this person? I had a manager in work who was a textbook narciccist as Dr K describes, especiall the bludgeoning part, like she would just keep bringing up stuff that I wasn't exactly sure how to answer and just keep throwing it in my face to beat me down until I would just agree with her. Unfortunately, I am very senstitive to stuff like this as not having an answer to a question or making a mistake creates a huge amount of anxiety for me. Like in my case, it was just a job. I made a complaint, it wasn't taken seriously so I calmly handed my resignation and a couple of weeks before I left, she started being overly nice to me. I still never liked her. If it's a family member or a parent, that's much bigger decision, but you may be better off just cutting the person out of your life and refusing to play their silly games.
Dr. K, your mic has been sounding weird on all my devices lately. It was weird during the stream clips, but normal during the advertisement at 1 minute in. Thanks for all the great advice and info you give.
My friend is extremely narcissistic and I'm not willing to put in this much effort to make him happy, he's either going to accept the boundaries I set or I never talk to him or see him again
I had a friend who was diagnosed with BPD but she presents more as narcissistic. The emotional offloading got unbearable and was not reciprocal. In the end, I found that saying I was depressed and unable to be there, but was happy to go to the GP with her, so she could access psychological therapies, worked a treat. It was manipulative of me, I know, but I had tried honest ways of communication. By placing a social obligation onto her and suggesting ways for her to be responsible for herself, it put her in a position where I was too much effort for her. She still comes to speak with me at work, however when I start talking she walks away. I can't hear what she's saying, so I just say "I can't hear you" and carry on with my tasks. Once you emotionally detach it gets much easier. People like this are everywhere, learn to protect yourself, we don't live in fairytale land!