V Tail Hard Landing Oshkosh 2019, Open Discussion UPDATED Info from incident pilot in description
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- Опубліковано 27 лип 2019
- To see a small demonstration of the vortices created by propellers and wings , see this short video
• Standing Cessna 310 L ...
Here is a video on avoiding wake turbulence --
• Cessna 310 / Citation ...
ORIGINAL COMMENT: Not to put other pilots on blast, heaven knows that we all make mistakes. And this pilot showed great skill and ability to recover. But since this incident was captured on video, thought it was worthy of inspection and discussion. Thoughts and comments are welcomed.
UPDATE MARCH 2020 from the pilot himself:
The Fisk arrival up to the point I turned left downwind went very smoothly. Upon turning downwind, I began my descent as requested to do so by the tower controller. It was at this point I gained a visual on the Ford Trimotor that I was going to be following to the runway. From the very beginning I thought our separation was a bit tight. With this in mind, I began widening out my downwind slightly and planned on delaying my base turn as long as possible to try and squeeze out a little extra space. Upon reaching the point abeam the blue dot, the controller instructed me to turn base somewhat urgently, to which I complied. This whole exchange can be heard on the LiveATC recording (I'm told to start my descent just after the 1:45 mark). Almost every year I've flown into Oshkosh, the controllers have jammed me in close behind someone like this, so it seemed normal at the time. I fully configured the aircraft for landing in the base leg and monitored my airspeed. Approaching my base to final turn, my airspeed was indicating 95mph. Normal final approach speed in this airplane is 80-85mph depending on gust factor and weight, but it can be slowed to as low as 75mph for short field landings. The airplane stalls at 59mph at maximum gross weight in the landing configuration. In my stable, 15-20 degree bank, descending turn to final, the aircraft began banking uncontrollably to the left. Knowing I had plenty of airspeed, I immediately suspected wake turbulence from the Trimotor. I had a little less than 3 seconds from the time the left wing first starts to dip to the time the airplane first makes contact with the ground. With that little time, it was all instinct at this point. I simultaneously applied right aileron, right rudder, and full power. With the airplane also now in about a 35-40 degree bank, I unloaded the wings as much as I possibly could. These inputs stopped the roll but due to the vortex they did not initially level the wings. Thankfully, my extra airspeed allowed me to arrest the descent rate with back elevator pressure just as the left main made contact with the ground. It's hard to tell in the video, but we initially hit in the grass just before the A2 taxiway to the left of the runway. Probably a good thing too... pavement would have been much less forgiving. Anyways, as you can see, the airplane bounced and continued flying. I floated approximately 500 feet down the runway and touched down smoothly around the pink dot. The left main partially folded on rollout.
I've hashed this out a million times in my head, and overall I am extremely happy with the outcome. I feel very lucky that we walked away with no injuries... other than a slightly bruised ego. My only regret in the recovery is my rudder input. I believe the rudder was necessary to help stop the roll, but in hind sight, I think it was definitely more than I needed to counteract the adverse yaw from all the aileron. This put the airplane into a slip and only increased the rate of descent. In the end it all worked out, so I can't really say things would've undoubtedly ended better had I done anything differently. It's just been very hard not to second guess everything.
The Lesson:
I will be the first to admit I have always had a somewhat nonchalant approach to wake turbulence avoidance, and based on conversations I've had with others in the past, I believe there are many out there with the same attitude. I have begrudgingly accepted "hold short wake turbulence departing Beechjet" instructions while I think to myself about how dumb it is to wait 2 minutes for an airplane with the same wingspan as a Piper Malibu... And oh man, do I now realize how dangerous of an attitude that was.
Read AC 90-23G for an extremely detailed lesson on wake turbulence, the measures you should take to avoid it, and what you should do to recover in the event you find yourself trapped in it. The Advisory Circular explains everything much better than I can
There's one last thing I ask you all to take away from this, and that is to be extremely careful when trying to figure out what caused an aircraft accident. Accident speculation is something I see often on this subreddit, especially in local news crash article threads that give absolutely no information to comprise a theory on. Unless we've heard the pilot's account or an official accident report has been released, none of us can ever be sure what happened. - Авто та транспорт
Pilot looks around and says to self. "I hope no one saw that!".
Quarter million views and counting
Most of oshkosh & now youtube.
He don't have to worry, only 318k people on UA-cam thus far and those at t airfield saw it, ain't too many 😆😆😆
Well, that was a little embarrassing.
If it’s not on Facebook. It didn’t happen.
Kudos to the pilot for a fine recovery from what appeared to be wake turbulence! Nice job. He did what we are taught to do, "Fly the plane"!
Drum Covers by Bill wake turbulence? Seriously? 😂
It was just too tight too high too fast base turn, triple fail for the pilot
petysiac I’d say too slow
@@SaroopD right I mean too slow:) being fast might help him actually
@@petysiac you don't know what you are talking about www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/cwceob/i_almost_had_a_serious_accident_at_oshkosh_2019_a/
I can hear my instructor 30 years ago yelling into my ear and pounding on my shoulder saying watch the !@&^%!! airspeed....you're going to kill us!!
Lol likewise
Duck Meat 🤣👍🏼
hahaha!
Yeah had same reaction from instructor when I first started lessons. Came in on final doing 55 knots indicated in the 152, but low power setting put us in red glide slope indication and slow. He bout shit himself, and said watch the fucking airspeed, god dammit. Haven’t had that problem ever since once is enough. Checkride coming up.
On a normal airplane more rudder should be used to turn the plane instead of severe banking at low speeds. I wonder what effect the rudder is in a V tail in pushing the rear end around and how it effects the characteristics of a slow coordinated turn.
Obviously impressed with the pilots ability to acknowledge and fix a problem so early and fast
This is a basic maneuver called the "Change of Underwear"
Wow! Comment of the year award Haha
Scott Skinner: Yeah, no sh*t...errr...pardon the pun.
OnlyAviationBois: I would but I don’t have a “fup”. Where can I get one?
OnlyAviationBois: Geez, why didn’t you say so little aviation boi. Hanging out with real pilots again are we?
OnlyAviationBois: That was the point of my comment - it was becoming increasingly obvious that you’re a kid just from your spelling and punctuation - thank you for verifying. Also I should mention it’s considered lame to “like” your own comments. Anyway, I have no desire to banter with children so I’ll just say in closing, that you should learn how to punctuate and spell and now I’ll say goodbye. My comment to the original poster, btw, was meant as humour, not rudeness. Adios amigo.
Holy cow! Clearly the pilot was skilled by how he managed to get out of that. That said also doesn’t hurt to have a bit of luck on your side too!
I vote Wake Turbulence and good flying by the Bonanza pilot.
Here is an example of avoidance from a few years ago -- ua-cam.com/video/FTm5d6RK5a4/v-deo.html
Possibly from tri motor?
That’s the first thing that popped into my head....
Scotty It Doesn’t matter that it was a tri motor. That’s exactly what that was. There was a 15 second separation between the two. He did the best recovery he could.
@@scotty657 believe there were four people killed in a small airplane in Europe from the Wake turbulence from a tri-motor or maybe it was a biplane, although it was quite a bit bigger than that airplane. The videos on UA-cam
His left main gear looked kinda floppy after that runway smooch
Brian Sweet it collapsed down the runway.
Was looking for this in the comments lol
Brian Sweet that’s what I thought...and looked like it was starting to collapse....
@@chrisambrose8838 What's even weirder is that the pilot thought it's best to land immediately after that impact instead of going around and have the airplane checked by observers and get emergency units ready for a possible belly landing.
Better choice to put it down. Could have massive structural damage after a hit like that. Better to put it down while you have control. Driving the landing gear into the wing like that could have damaged the spar.
Well David, I have to say that it was an excellent recovery. I also have to say how amazed I am that the left main gear didn't collapse because it looked like quite an impact to have to absorb on one gear alone. Kudos to both the aircraft and to you.
It would be nice to be able to read that last slide, but the preview thumbnails are in the way.
Adblock with "youtube.com##.ytp-ce-element-show"
I paused it and then the thumbnails kinda fade so you can read it. You gotta look past the buttons tho.
Here you go:
"This incident will be costly but aircraft and personnel were spared more devastating results."
"MORAL: 1) Don't fly near VSO until short final. 2) No turns greater than 20 degrees at or near VSO. 3) Always be prepared to 'GO AROUND' from an unstable or undesirable approach."
Hope that helps.
@@AmyAnnLand Thanks!
@@PaddyWag0n If you ever read this, THANK YOU!
Whoever built this aircraft, the main gear to be precise, deserves a medal.
The Tri, having no flaps, generates massive wake turbulence. Controllers need to accommodate this with greater spacing for these old birds.
I was going to say the very same thing!
This is true but it is NOT the controllers responsibility to relay or advise wake turbulence. They do so if they have time. It is 150% always the PIC's responsibility to gauge proximity of approach with the aircraft ahead and decide accordingly. The wise thing to do would've been go around and come back.
@@heregoesmike what you say is true from a regulatory perspective, but OshKosh during EAA AirVenture is a **slightly** different animal. Once you turn in over the railroad tracks, the controllers at OshKosh are providing separation services, and they absolutely should have given any aircraft following that tri motor more space.
@@ShuRugal I totally agree, I'm mainly just speaking from a "Normal Flight Ops" point of view. I'm curious what the radio activity was like. I've flown a couple approaches that had forced go-arounds because the freq was too busy to announce position.
@@heregoesmike then why do i always hear "caution wake turbulence" at literaly every ATC i ever listen to ever? (EXCEPT for Oshkosh)
My vote is also a Wake Turbulence situation, pilot did a great job to recovering from it.
No. It was a Ford Trimotor not a Heavy Jet
@@user-ss6zt2mo1l and?
@@Spoons81 Slow final speed on approach and banking, increased stall speed because of the bank. Full power and pray.
@@user-ss6zt2mo1l definitely but I believe there was also some influence due to a bit of wake from the airplane that landed no more than 10 seconds before
Agreed. The Antonov A2, a similarly sized and powered plane, leaves a massive vortex.
Caution wake turbulence, heavy Ford Tri-Motor half mile in front.
old flying truth...'a superior pilot should never have to use theire superior skills to get them out of inferior situations" :)
I would vote wake turbulence as well. While in the bank, he experienced significant loss of lift. If it were aerodynamic stall, he would have also gone into a spin due to the bank angle. Great Recovery V35 pilot!
Turbulence of Ford trimotor
Sorry speak spanish,
smitty631 nope. Pilot killer turn in Dr killer bonanza. Their known for exactly what we saw. Stalling on a slow Base to final turn.
v tail is a fine plane and in it would not spin if stalled in A 30° bank or 45 ,60 or 90° bank or any other attitude as long as the aircraft is coordinated at the stall no yaw no spin. Jeff creel CFI
Jeff Creel didn’t see it spin. I saw it stall on a base to final turn. Hey I didn’t give it the nickname. But there’s a reason it’s called that and I think we saw it.
I heard this happen while listening to the ATC radio feed and wondered what really occurred. Thanks for posting it.
I have been caught in wake turbulence before, and if I had been in a turn when I encountered it, I can see it being just like this. The question is whether I had the skill to save it like the pilot did here. Good job!
Best way, Yes, but this is Oshkosh in crowded and extremely busy landing conditions. Suggest you look at arrival videos at Oshkosh.
VIPFlight Instead of bashing other pilots and act like you’re a pro, remember that you’re human and can make mistakes. And hope when you do, hope that you make the right decision to safe your ass.
Our ambulance station was on finals for Sydney KS. When a 747 came over the wake turbulence would suck all the air through the station.
Huey Segura I’ve been caught in wake turbulence before that turned my piper cub totally on its edge. An ag plane had taken off and I entered the pattern, plane dropped over a 100 ft and my wings went totally vertical. And I was a student pilot. Never will forget that moment.
The best pilots are the ones who can act on a dime and prevent tragedies as they're occuring! I'd fly with this guy any day!
Pile Of George he was very fast
Coming right in behind that big TriMotor wake turbulence was the main factor.
Looks like he was trying to catch the third wire.
Only Navy guys will get this but yes, 3 wire trap. :-)
LOL !!!
LOL.
I think he missed it anyways. But I guess in this case a go around would've put him in the ocean anyways...lmao
@@jamesordwayultralightpilot ocean? Do you even know where Oshkosh is?
I was standing near the same spot where this is filmed, might even be me saying "whoah" in the background. My first thought when I saw it was he was too close to the trimotor. I immediately thought that the trimotor was big and slow putting off a ton of wake and he got caught up in it. I met the pilot and his 2 passengers after the airshow that day, and he confirmed my theory that he was caught in the wake
he lied to you. He stalled on the 45 degree steep turn. Maybe he doesnt know accelerated stalls and could not tell what happened due that. I used to teach those stalls.
I don't know or care what caused this plane to hit the runway, but I do know the pilot earned all my respect for his actions after it hit. I would fly anywhere with this pilot. Skill and the ability to stay calm when most of us would panic, is what I just watched. Thumbs up to this incredible pilot. Cheers mates.
Ok. The Tri wasn't anywhere near his flare where the Bone lost controlled flight momentarily. Nor had the Tri pulled a tight turn where the Bone became engaged with it's wake.
That said, which a/c has the higher wing loading pound for pound? Let alone in a steep bank. If the roles were reversed where the Tri was in a 30° bank and the Bone followed from a relative straight-in, I wouldn't have been anywhere near final. AIM advises to stay above, and land beyond the TDP of the preceeding a/c. Not always available at KOSH.
You would not think that a B-29 would suffer the wake of a B-24, but on a warm calm evening a bunch of years ago, the '29 was "into the marbles" all the way to touchdown. Or a 310 behind a Moo-2. Or an F-27 behind a 75'. Or a Mooney M-20 behind a 260 Comanche. Or a Cub behind a B-52. That one didn't really happen.
Absolutely a Tri-Motor that close ahead of you could do that. Tower sometimes calls wake turbulence for planes behind the CJ2 I fly-12,500 pounds.
In my opinion that happened TO you and you got it back.
Wow! That was close. It’s great that he kept his stuff together and got the plane down without injury or worse. I’m sure a change of underwear was necessary afterwards. I’m glad that he dug it out and walked away from that one.
That was some wicked wake turbulence! What a great pilot to keep from splattering that beautiful bonanza!
Wow, great job recovering the plane and happy to know that you are alright, David! Good luck with the FAA. They should go easy on you, but I hope your nose gear is also OK.
I wonder if some turbulent air from that Trimotor that flew in just ahead also contributed. The recovery showed a lot of skill. That could easily have ended up a fatality.
Exactly. He did what Maverick did, he flew into the prop wash (wind form propellers) and almost stalled into a crash.
Exactly my thoughts as well. The separation was definetly too short. Experienced that yesterday while flew in wake turbulance of landing Piper with my CTSW (weight factor 2). Not a good feeling once your plane is starting banking by itself. There was a zero-wind weather and separation was about 20-30 seconds. So, here it could be similar contribution factor.
William Scott wake turbulence isn’t the same as jet wash/ wake turbulence causes roll upsets like what happened here
@@willsco76 more likely to be wake turbulence.
@@willsco76 Maverick flew through jet wash, not prop wash.
Perfect recovery and landing
Good V-tail driving and great performance from the engine. Loved the response from my I/O 520 in my V35B.
The pilot said it was wake turbulence, didn’t expect that much from the Tri Motor. He was supposed to land farther down and was not close to Vso. Said the Tri motors Vortices (dirty air) created a loss of lift he did not expect.
Great save! Looks like wake turbulence from the ford. I probably would’ve went around after the bounce, but hey, whatever works. Good display of solid airmanship! 👍
the good thing about Osh is LENGTH - runway is very long - he got the ol girl gathered up - and had 7000 feet in front of him - the thing with Osh is people get fixated on hitting the dot - dont - if you need to go long - go long - this past year I was told green dot - no one in front of me - they were sending airplanes to the very end of the parking area - I keept the power in - landed about 7000 past the green dot because of the long line behind me - got a thank you - land safe and exit quickly is really the only rule -
Good analysis. I think the steepness of the turn was enough to cause the loss of lift. What a recovery though! Glad it didn't turn out worse.
fly4fun610 We can ALL probably bet by now he sees the need for more spacing on final. Who, but HIM and those watching know of the specifics as to separation and HOW that even got started. He did well with what he had to work with...’hats off’, glad he’s alright
No matter who or if someone did something wrong I am so glad no one suffered any phisical injury. The airplane can be fixed or replaced. All of us who go to oshkosh experience a level of excitement to be at such a great venue, and it can be a little overwhelming the first time. Fly safe!
I feel like that was a BRILLIANT recovery to a potentially fatal situation!?! A good pilot is ALWAYS LEARNING!!!🙏👍🏻👌🏻
Wake turbulence, you can see the sudden drop . I passed close by the trimotor on departure from Osh, strong wake behind it
I do know the tri motor is a turbulance machine(it's not the most aerodynamic lol) but wouldnt you think it'd happen more often for how much the trimotors take off and land at eaa? Just curious on your thoughts about it..I'm trying to remember if this happened the windy day but drawing a blank on that
Not overly windy, I actually saw it happen as I was waiting my turn to takeoff
L S scary.
What part of “You’re too close behind a 9000 pound aircraft” doesn’t make sense?
L. Scott McGowin what part of Oshkosh is fucken busy don't YOU understand? Anyhow, if you read the pilots account above, the controllers always jam people in like this. Partial ass kickin to them I'd say.
The tower handle many aircraft every year, they know very well what they are doing. I would prefer not to be to there position
L. Scott McGowin its oshkosh what do you fucking expect? 1 mile seperation?
@@r08800 here's hoping that Oshkosh won't have an accident with stuff like this anytime soon.
Excellent break down! I watched a video of a 20 year CFI talk about this same thing. That hard bank at already stall speed got him. Nothing for the wings to “ grab” onto at that speed and bank. Good recovery. The pilot was already expecting it by his quick reaction 👍🏼
Nothing beats a stabilized approach.
At OSH you don't always get offered that.
JEFF CROUSE Yeah, and along with probably asking this Bonanza to land in a possible wake turbulence zone, OSH discards safety measures that shouldn’t be discarded. Another example, Formation takeoffs are sexy and efficient, but risky as well.
Classic wake turbulence, nice recovery.
I'm with the team for wake turbulence from the big ass tri-motor. Sucked him down like a vacuum cleaner.. good save!.. hope damage was minor. love those V tails
How much does the tri motor weigh?
Sloth it’s not the weight, it’s the disturbance of air with that large wing and three props causing a lot of turbulence close to the ground, and the Bonanza was too close behind him to allow the air turbulence to subside before his final approach.
@@JamminJere the weight and wing shape determines how much air is displaced...
I respectfully disagree, may have contributed and even startled or distracted to be sure. Low speed, high bank angle is bad news. Can't say for sure since I wasn't there. Any report from the pilot?
I don't see any damage??
Any landing you walk away from is a good landing and any landing where you use the plane again is a great landing. To me it looks like you might have got caught up in the Fokker's wash. Excellent flying.
Great reaction n perception time n great recovery n pilot skills
Just wanted to say that no matter what happen to take him there this pilot showed great ability in recovering... him and the airplane
This is a main problem when trying to correct the over-shoot of a final turn at fairly slow speeds and low alt. There's nothing wrong with throwing your wing up 30 degrees but give yourself some room. Whether it's turbulence or just wing stall, the wing stalls and can lead to some bad stuff. In this case it does look like wake disturbance. However the pilot(David) should have given himself more room by extending his downwind. Don't worry about the people behind you. They can extend the D/W as well.
I know this comment is 2 years old, but for those who will read this now - I flew into KOSH this year - you do not fly a regular pattern lol. We didn't even touch the downwind on our entry, there are way too many planes for that. They have a written procedure that everyone follows in a line starting from a good amount of miles away from the airport right to the runway (or taxiway serving as a runway hehe). We flew right onto the base then final with the procedure this year, which I'm guessing was the same in 2019.
For all of us that can't go, thanks for the videos!!
I'm with the wake turbulence crowd. Great recovery and nice to have some luck thrown in.
" bring me my brown pants! " Nice save there in capt. You did all right things at right time.
You know except maintaining airspeed
Nice rescue! Wake turbulence.. Hard on the landing gear! lol
Great pilot skills! He didnt panic and brought it to an safe result.
Wow, that was a close one and a great recovery.
Dave DID NOT initiate the 30 degree bank, his felt win hit the down wash of the TRI-Motor which sucked his wing down GREAT PILOTING you proved that it is possible to correct from and upset, GOOD JOB David you are my new hero you should give talks on just how you did this save
Agree and updated intro. Excellent piloting skills!!
Def!
The quick responde and the mighty IO520 saved the plane. Great landing after a wind shear or wake turbulence from the Ford trimotor...
Glad you made it through this unharmed.
Excellent recovery. Kudos to the pilot.
After the bounce and recovery, the vortice drops his left wing again, he recovers TWO times!
Thought I saw that too
Exactly....
Good catch!
I didn't see what had happened, but saw him stopped on the runway for awhile. Boy, that could have turned out much worse. Broken landing gear is so much better then broken people.
Could have been a much worse but for good piloting. Agree
billinga good piloting wouldnt of gotten him into that situation to begin with. He got luck Imo after getting behind the airplane or task saturated.
@@invertmast,it was wake turbulence and at AirVenture it isn't always possible to stay above the glide of the larger aircraft. Hindsight is 20/20, but at that moment there is nothing this pilot did in his decision making that would be out of sync with just about everyone else flying there.
MP i will respectfully disagree with your “it is not possible to stay above the glide path of the larger aircraft” bc that is just a copout of a remark. If you cant ensure proper wake turbulence avoidance, then you dont accept the approch or landing clearance, its as simple as that. This pilot exhibited poor decision making and got Lucky in that the outcome is only a broken airplane and a bruised ego.
@@invertmast , I can tell you have never flown into AirVenture. At any other time I would agree with you, but you aren't even making radio calls here. You listen and then comply. If you go around you are looking at having to leave the area and then get resequenced back in. This might take 30 mins or more of flying. If that big bird floats, you get screwed. Flying in on the dots also makes it a challenge as you and three other aircraft are landing on the same runway at the same time.
Normal rules on airport operations don't apply at AirVenture. If you haven't read the NOTAM for aircraft operations, I suggest you do. It is borderline insanity, but it works because everyone is on the same page.
Wow! Fantastic job bringing it under control.
Thanks for the analysis. New V-tail owner and I never like to fly close to the margins. Good to see what can happen as clearly he never expected it, but luckily recovered. Better move up his spar AD check to less than 500hrs.
Close behind heavy aircraft's wake turbulence was in the same glide path. Good save..
Orison Squirrell heavy?
Wow that was a close one nice recovery another amazing video
As An RC Pilot, It was easy to see his mistake. It almost cost him his plane and life. My guess is the strut was damaged. The seals probably blew out. Possible structure damage as well. It should be placed in a jig supporting the fuselage and cycle the gear, noting any damage. Looked more like a rocky mistake. Those V- Tail Bonanza's were labeled Doctor widow makers for a reason.
I have taken a ride in that tri- motor. Awesome that it is still flying!
There are more than one accident videos taken from this spot due to the close spacing, turning approach, and lack of stabilized approach path. FAA needs to insist on providing an approach path that allows a more stabilized approach rather than a stream of all different sizes and speeds of aircraft, 15 seconds apart, all executing a turning "dive and drive". Could simply move that turn to final 1/2 mile off the approach end and you would have a couple hundred feet under you when making the turn to final. Little impact to capacity but it would be a drastic improvement in safety margin.
PIlot's responsibility to go around if they can't comply.
I witnessed this hard landing. He ended up landing again about 1000 ft down the runway with a collapsed gear. The runway was shut down until they could clear the disabled plane off. I was in line on the north side about 20 planes back waiting to take off. The controller told us all to shut down and wait for further instructions. About 15 minutes later they switched us over to depart from the taxiway aka 18L.
I don't think this was wake turbulence. The Tri-Motor flared and landed way further down the runway. There was not enough time tor any vortex to drift near this Beachcraft where he hit. He just got too slow on his base to final turn. Very easy to do on this approach, just like Jack Roush did in his jet a few years ago. This is my least favorite approach at OSH because of this.
NoraDora22 the wake didn’t have to settle to where he hit. Factor in the turn to final, the slow speed, the fact he was literally 15 seconds behind the tri motor and that’s the perfect wake turbulence scenario. The bonanza was rolling and descending at the same time. I was in a Bandeirante with what was supposed to be plenty of seperation behind a 737. Within seconds we rolled 90 degrees and pointed at the ground. After losing 300 feet we gained control and climbed above glide slope. Years later almost exactly the same in a CRJ behind a 757. I’d bet my life that it was wake turbulence and the controllers at Oshkosh should learn a lesson from this instead of trying to cram too many planes into a tight airspace. Especially a bonanza behind a larger plane like that.
Agree with NoraDora on this one. Im a CFI with hundreds of those low short approaches.. That guy stalled it, as simple as that. Vortex make you roll more, not just stalls it and drops you like that with little roll.
5feetgoaround fullflapsC150 it’s not as simple as that. The pilot of the bonanza has already commented that it was wake turbulence. Ive got upwards of 14000 hours and I can tell you that wake turbulence can and will push you down and roll you depending on where you encounter it.
@@dlink7277 If there was a crosswind from the right, maybe. Those Ford Trimotors dont have flaps and produce less strong vortex than same wing span airplanes when using flaps. I have been on 2 cases of vortex. At 10 feet agl flaring- on a Grumman Tiger, due helicopter powered up on taxiway while i was landing. Another at around 200 feet agl on a formation flying take off. I rolled on both but i recovered on both with hard controls. Grummans have good aileron power.
5feetgoaround fullflapsC150 Considering the potential outcome of any wake upset, I’m glad that the 2 wake encounters you experienced had positive outcomes. What I have said before on this subject and I will say again is that it’s dangerous to look at this video and say without a doubt that it isn’t possible for the trimotor to create enough wake turbulence to produce what was just shown on this video. I have had multiple wake upsets with more than 5 miles separation despite the FAA stating that it’s more than enough. If you happen to be in the right place with the right conditions, any plane will create enough wake if you only have 15 seconds of separation. Personally I think it was idiotic for the atc controllers to vector him in that close, or for him to accept that clearance, but what I’m arguing is that this guy didn’t stall his airplane. I’m not positive and I’ll be happy to admit it, but I have experienced wake turbulence exactly the way this plane did and “we, my crew” recovered because we had plenty of altitude. Just because you haven’t experienced it, don’t be foolish enough to say it isn’t possible.
Wow I thought for sure the landing gear was toast after that impact. Glad he made it down safe.
He kept flying the airplane! Props Sir!
Simulator Damage set to "off".
But really, that was scary. Surprised there was no visible damage. Was expecting a pancake.
The left main gear is wobbly after the initial bounce. And seemed to collapse (fold onwards) just before the V-tail disappears from view behind other planes on its roll out.
Making a left turn and landing on the north /south while holding short of the east/west is an area in Oshkosh where the most accidents occur. I have seen some terrible fatalities over the years right there in the same spot. I watched a guy walk away from a smack-down with a corporate jet right there in the same spot. I watched a guy in a T18 roll over and catch fire right there where the V tail hit. Do you wonder why most of the aviation photographers stand in the same spot this photographer stood? I saw a warbird jet make that turn and wind up crashed in the Warbird's area. There simply is no reason for this. You have almost 2 miles of runway after making that turn. We are trained to put the plane down on the numbers. How about the tower telling aircraft to make the turn at 500 ft AGL and land 1/4 to 1/2 down the runway! Problem solved. Lives saved. We can argue pilot error, but I believe it's poor planning on the part of FAA. I simply can not put 100% blame on this pilot. In fact, the skills of this pilot to pull one out of the grim reaper's hands is commendable. Most of the blame goes to the FAA and the EAA for poor planning.
Agree FAA and EAA approve of unstable approaches at OSH and look down on going around. The pressure to get on the ground especially after the storms earlier in the week and being stuck in the middle of a mass arrival. Wake turbulence from the Ford didnt help the issue either. Like you said many accidents/incidents there. Looks eerily similar to jack Roushs premier crash few years ago.
Joe Scheibinger Agreed, well said, and the FAA being the A**holes they are would just say hes a bad pilot who should have his license revoked
@@bartofilms there are NOTAMS for the app and dep.
@@AreeyaKKC From the videos ive seen of the fisk arrival its almost a miracle there arent more severe accidents happening. Sequencing of the planes seems to be poorly done (as seen in Finer points video where he is forced to follow some old STOL plane in a C182), planes flying in very close proximity and landing on the same runway at the same time which means a great risk of collision or distraction, forcing these planes into tiny traffic patterns with a base to final turn basically above the runway, no concern when it comes to wake turbulence (as can be seen in this video), the list probably goes on.
If you pulled half of these stunts on any other airport youd get called out, reported, and probably invited to a nice talk with your local FAA representative in no time. And rightfully so.
@@Dudeisthere ya buddy nearly colided with a cirrus while departing in a L29. Dont get me started with the mass arrivals. It's busy enough then add in 120 plus bonanzas all lining up at once. More people gonna be killed.
I'm not even a pilot and i thought wake turbulence as well. It just dropped like a rock. like nothing was there. Great save!
Man I thought he was a goner. At first I was a little disappointed that you didn't record the tri motor touchdown, but now I'm sure glad you didn't. Good recovery but I think I would've kept the balls to the wall and continue a go around. If it was wake from the tri motor, I definitely wouldn't want to continue the approach in a destabilized condition. Glad it turned out well!!
Bravo pilot )))!!!
Looked like left main gear was swinging after impact too. Hopefully it relocked down.
Aeroworks Productions Nope. As the airplane left the shot the left gear was collapsing.
Beautiful job!
These are the best model aircrafts I have ever seen!👍
I flew on this Trimotor when at an airshow in Michigan back in the mid '90's.
Still in Michigan? Where did you fly at? Just moved to Michigan
@@wilurbean The airshow was at KYIP. If you're not familiar with the history of the airport look it up. You'll be reading (&/or watching) a tremendous amount of information. I think that the Trimotor is currently kept in California. Don't quote me on that however :)
glad you're still with us.
Good recovery and airmanship. No doubt some wake turbulence but solely from the Tri-motor???
Other than that, we are all allowed mistakes, the good pilot recognizes those and acts accordingly to avoid costly consequences, kudos to the VTail pilot
I would agree on wake turbulence, great recovery from the pilot.
A good landing is any you can walk away from. A great landing is when you can also reuse the airplane.
There’s always that one guy that says this as if they’re the first to come up with it.
@@coryscook get bent turd
Your excellent recovery could not have been better, unless of course you had smoke system on!!!! Lol. Nice save buddy :-)
Good analysis of the morals. Glad the pilot at least got #3 right!
Possibly encountered wake turbulence from preceding twin. It's a situation that I personally try to avoid, because that close to the ground, either you have the luck and ability of that mate, or game over.
Ryanair: WOW that’s the best landing I’ve ever seen!
Excellent recovery, but I see no mention of the problem here. I was taught to land above and beyond large aircraft touchdown points. So a pilot decision and/or a controller request, the expediency of landing doesn’t override the safety issue. Don’t land short of a big wake touchdown and you avoid the problem. If Wittman/EAA have a problem with that, too bad.
Here is that procedure -- ua-cam.com/video/FTm5d6RK5a4/v-deo.html
It wasn't Harrison Ford again, was it?
Great job flying it in safely.... I just wish everyone had that quick muscle memory reflex you have Sir.... If you fly anything at all from models to military jets you will in counter at some point the need for such muscle reflex as this gentleman did ....
Standard carrier approach
Those of us that have flown into wake turbulence know when we see it. No ifs and or buts. That big and draggy trimotor not only left wake from being heavy but a dirty wake from three big motors and a flying barn of an airframe.
All is well that ends well🕊
I agree with mr Sonderblom. The fact that he added top rudder to help recover from the bank probably prevented a spin or increased roll towards the bad side
Wake turbulence. Super scary! Congrats to the pilot for the save.
Nice thing about a piston engine is they throttle up fast!
Just go around and live to see another day.
Dudes got some skills and a cool head. That was a great recovery after hitting a hallow spot behind that heavy bird he followed in.
Why do they make the turn to final basically at the threshold? I recall the race team owner in his jet pulling the same maneuver and crashing.
watch the many many "flying into Oshkosh" videos and you'll see how much of a circus act this is... dangerous and a bit out of control.
That was Jack Rush on his small jet. He "forgot" (Read freeze down) to add power on a go around and stalled it. Got hurt.
27-9 is just north of 18-36, and they use both runways at the same time. When landing 18, you *must* turn before you're close to 27-9 or you're flying directly into traffic. This forces a lot of steep turns at low airspeed when pilots would otherwise just extend their downwind.
@@skiptalbot They turn too mild or too timid from the start, then when see overshooting they turn steep and stall it.
@@outwiththem Yes, I'm sure overshooting is an issue. That approach to 18 is tricky though with little wiggle room. You have to nail it. Sometimes the tower calls your base turn early because they're trying to get you down fast with other traffic on final. People are probably used to flying wide patterns in those heavier, faster planes, but you really have to crank that base to final turn in a hurry sometimes at OSH. The main thing is just knowing your limitations and aborting the landing rather than trying to force it or fix it.
From someone who doesn't fly but has thrown spanners at light aircraft all my life... I've come up with a shortlist of aircraft I'd prefer to be in if I had to crash, v or b 35 or 36, and of course the Aztec. It's a very short list. Coincidentally they are also my two most hated aircraft for fuel tank work.
What a cool job. I used to fly in a twin otter pretty much daily for my job and when we got a good mechanic in it, it showed massive wear and tear in the rudder (said ball-bearings were gone, it was a wreck)
Unfortunately, a friend did lose his life on a check ride on an aircraft they were working on. With that said, I miss aviation terribly.
@@andycopland3179 thankfully I haven't killed anyone, plenty of students turning c172's and 152's into retractable nose gear aircraft but the pay doesn't match the level of responsibility despite constant harrasment from you pilots over the cost of nuts and bolts very little of the money gets to us guys!
I still love the aircraft, I'm growing tired of everything else.
Great recovery by the Pilot. Given his position, attitude and altitude, things could have gone much worse. Wake Turbulence is NO JOKE!! Job well done. MYNN ATC (Nassau Bahamas).