I always found The Stranger to be a very odd inclusion to the Seven, and how its often excluded from open conversation and worship. And yet The Stranger is always there, lurking just out of thought.
The House of Black and White keeps a statue of the Stranger in its halls. However, Arya is told that he doesn't get many worshipers. So the some vestige of the Seven remains in Esso.
After watching this video and the one about why Aegon conquered Westeros it gave me a thought. Sorry if this was mentioned already. If the 7 really is a death-worshipping cult, Aegon putting an end to the constant war, brutality and consequently death would seriously put a hamper on “offerings” to their god. Also, by removing the Targaryens, they remove the one unifying force that could oppose The Others when the next Long Night came. Possibly why the faith kept trying to remove the Targaryens from power. Loved the video, thanks!
At first I thought the concept of the Seven faith being a death cult was silly. But the fact that you guys present such compelling evidence has convinced me that you are right. This is so damn creepy! Especially the Quiet Isle part. Maegor should have destroyed the Faith entirely! Brilliant channel, guys. Love your work. Keep it up!
There is a difference between a religion helping to cope with death and actively worshipping or hoping for death. But I suppose all religions could be seen as a form of death worship since most religions tell their followers to be more concerned with a superior afterlife rather than trying to better their lot in this life.
Others are commenting on Catholicism as the inspiration for the Faith of the Seven and to me the Quiet Isle part instantly made me think of the scandals involving Catholic nuns abducting infants from indigent or underage mothers (after caring for them during pregnancy) and then putting the babies up for adoption. Ugh.
Damn. Even the Old Ways and chopping off people's heads for Blood Sacrifices in the religion of Old Gods sounds far better alternative to die. Atleast Old Gods' religion isn't a political juggernaut that the shitty Faith is in it's purest form. Less of a religion, more of a cult which wants to stay in power. There is another channel which talks about Children being the "main evil" in the story as they wanted a scapegoat people to offer blood sacrifices unquestionably to the Old Gods worshipped by Children and used Others as a leverage over the First Men to keep them in line after their purpose of defending against humans finished after the Pact. Note that First Men converted to Old Gods during Age of Heroes and not Dawn Age. He claimed that Children were now plotting to wipe out humanity from Westeros and reclaim their lost lands and groves after 12000 years
So question as it relates to the weirwoods and the stranger. If they are related, where do the direwolves fit in? In Jon's last chapter in a storm of swords, he's contemplating Stanis's offer when Ghost finally shows up again and Jon notes how he has the eyes of the weirwoods and how he is of the old gods (I know there's sort of an amalgamation with the old gods of the first men and the weirwoods, but it's specifically the red eyes and mouth with ghost white fur that gets Jon thinking that). The direwolves don't seem to be symbols of death, but protectors and companions for the Starks. It's also noted in the same chapter how the weirwood is the heart of Winterfell, and if Winterfell is really where the battle for the dawn ended, why would they maintain a symbol associated with the great other?
So, during the walk of atonement, is the idea that Cersei saw Biter and Rorge (filed teeth and weeping sores) or that the FM had used the same type of magic on the crowd members to make them similarly terrifying? I got a little confused about the point of that right at the end. Either way would be fascinating.
The Vale is very interesting when you think about it. Major houses like Royce and Redfort are very proud of their first Man heritage yet serve a notorious Andal house (Arryn). You have to wonder at the very least. There has to be some resentment in the Vale as it holds the largest amount of first men outside of the north.
This series is amongst the most eye opening of all theory videos. Letters + what ever, this hands down. The seven being the death cult. Most like a pawn of the great other. An it's not a stretch of the imagination, it's just simply out lining things that are well known an my own mind began to run down the same road about the faceless men. The desire of those deep in the cult to be fed to the trees. Just bravo. Well done. Will watch again.
What if it's revealed that both The Great Other and The Lord of Light are playing their own game, to see who comes on top until the cycle is doomed to repeat itself 8,000 years later?
But what about Euron in a feast of crows he is seen in a vision sitting on the iron throne with all the gods The Great Other and The Lord of Light included impaled on the spikes dead
I like most of your videos, but I think this series is your masterpiece so far. Good job! In Feast, Cersei explains how the High Septon loses his name when he steps into his office. He then litteraly becomes "no one". I guess this fits pretty well with what you're exposing here.
Damn, Rorge and Bitter working as helpers to Jaquar makes even more sense now with the way that Dorn made sellsword help with the grand plan of the faith. Two sides all the way.
Just earlier this morning i was thinking about your videos and how i missed, cause its been some time. So glad that i opened my youtube to see this. Thank you guys for bringing such a rich content, it adds so much to the experience of knowing asoiaf. Best Wishes from Brasil. I hope you guys make a video about Doran Martell and what is going on with his plans, that seems to work against his family
Oh man, I started to feel mire than a bit sick when you described what was going on the pregnant mothers on the Quiet Isle. It's funny when I first listened to that passage I felt really unsettled, but it hadn't fully registered. Now I have that same feeling all over again, but doubled!
As a child growing up in Brazil I got obviously got a few good looks in Christ the Redeemer Statue, and imagining THAT covered waist deep in rotting skulls bearing mute part in all the monstrosities of society is absolutely great. TERRIBLE. But great.
I liked this one. But I think you could have gone into more depth about the possible true origins of the Faith of the Seven. I really see two possibilities here. 1. The Faith did technically originate with the Andals of Essos (with the example of Argos Sevenstar, who attacked the North), but were an unpopular or heretical sect in Andalos itself, and possibly forcibly expelled to Westeros. This could make the religion related to "whatever the Norvoshi are doing", as they seem to share ax symbolism (used by early Andal arrivals), the use of bells and seem to be Monothiestic. It also fits with speculation that Norvos was originally an Andal settlement, before the Valyrians showed up. This could also explain Qarlon the Great wanting to take Norvos, as if he was trying to unite all the Andals, and the Norvoshi were really mostly Andal, he would have seen it as "rightfully" belonging to his domain. Perhaps if the Norvoshi religion started as a sort of heretical sect or cult among the Andals they might have feared suppression by Qarlon, and thus motivated their reaching out to the Freehold. IE: our understanding of Norvos might be reversed. They weren't freeing the "intolerable" religious tolerance of the Freehold, but using it to protect their own religious identity, possibly from other Andals. 2. The Faith is an invention of the Oldtown conspiracy, which predated even the arrival of the Andals. This allowed Oldtown a virtual monopoly on religious authority, sorcery and information, by dividing these between the Starry Sept, the Hightower, and the Citadel. This fits well with the words of Garth IX Gardener, who was the first king of the Reach to welcome the Andals "When a wolf descends upon your flocks, all you gain by killing him is a short respite, for other wolves will come. If instead you feed the wolf and tame him and turn his pups into your guard dogs, they will protect the flock when the pack comes ravening." This indicates that the Faith of the Seven, at least in it's current (organized, centralized and hierarchical) form might not have just been to control the native smallfolk, but the tide of Andal immigrants as well, averting ethnic tensions by creating a common religion to unite the people under. It's also worth noting that while the Faith of the Seven seems to be a proselytizing religion, like the Followers of R'hlor, it's failed to even reach back to Essos, and only seems concerned with converting Westeros. Which is another strange parallel to the Maesters, who though very prolific in their academic exploits in Westeros, seem unable to, or uninterested in establishing themselves in Essos. Especially considering all the contact between the Free Cities and the Seven Kingdoms.
I just had a thought that relates to this. It's also mentioned that Garth IX wanted their engineering and metal-working knowledge, their smithing. What better way to "tame" the Andal wolves, then to convince their smiths that working their craft for their Kings and Lords is a religious duty.
Meh it's the first time I disagree with one of the videos. Specifically, the whole "High Sparrow lied". First of all, he didn't explicitly state that those bones were collected lately. In fact, it's much more likely they are a cumulative group of bones, taken during the years of war. Secondly, I don't remember the travel of the High Sparrow being that short. In fact (even in other ASOIAF theory videos), his travel was much longer, and still would have touched the river lands. It's not just Clegane, the entire Lannister army was known to be cruel "Burn the villages, burn the farms". So: 1) It's not unlinely that those bones were from war. In fact, they are far too many to be part of some "conspiracy" in which the Silent Sisters took bones and used them to fabricate a false evidence. Also, this would require a great coordination, and the High Sparrow was a simple Septon, he had basically no power. It would require the cooperation of some Higher member of the order, like some Most Holy, but that would both be absurd (SOMEONE would have known), and nonsense (the whole point was to destroy the clergy in power, and make a new one. What crazy Most Devout or whatever would support the High Sparrow in a suicide mission?). 2) It's not unlikely he collected those bones from war, and in fact ASOIAF is filled with corpses all over the stories in those regions. Even Brienne found some in her travel. Also, the High Sparrow could maybe fool the Queen(Maybe?) but was he so clever to fool THE ENTIRE population of those regions too? They saw war, and they came with him to King's Landing, some of them should know the truth, it would be easy to say "No Septon-massacre" happened, duh". I find it more likely that this huge crowd was actually mad because the High Sparrow was telling the truth (duh). 3) Sorry but the whole Quiet Isle is fascinating...yet with near to no evidence. I'm not saying it's not true, cause George loves a dark twist and that would be a hell of a twist, kudos for you for thinking about this, but m8, what is the evidence? An isle in which pregnant women go and have children, that are taken as orphans. We are "assuming" they are actually killed (why? Why the effort? What's the point? Have they been doing this for centuries, just so that one day a random Sparrow would take power? They love bones? They to mean things? Wouldn't the Most Devout know? So many problems) women and children. I see no evidence of it, it's very unlikely and seems to be kinda "pushed". 4) The whole channel made a great job at uncovering the lies of the Andals, and the Seven. Kudos for that, too. However, I think that this direction has maybe "pushed" this theory beyond correction. Like "Andals and Seven Faith MUST be evil at all cost, and everything they say MUST be lies". George clearly shows us that some factions we are lead to believe to be evil, can actually be good, or have good members. There is no Black and White, exept me cause I'm obviously Lawful good and charming. This video in particular seems to go on with the whole thing "Hey they must be evil, so the Septon said something very likely (Priests murdered during war, something so common is basically like breathing, nobody cares, and that's the problem for him) and used it to take power....it must be a lie, since the Seven use lies to take power". Well, nope. I see no evidence for it. And it's not like "Jon Snow's Twin", so a "Likely" theory that I still find hard to see happening (but could 100% be true since it's very rational), this is both unlikely and not very rational. 5) Final note: Yeah, we all know how creepy the Seven Faith is. If you compare it to every Chuch in history, it is much more bloodier and cruel. It's like a dark, twisted version of Middle Ages, that laster forever. But....ain't we exaggerating on the High Septon? Yes, he was obviously power-driven, machiavellic and had no conception of State-Church separation (but really, WHO had that conception? This is kinda middle-ages, really). Yes, he wanted to control the King, control the Information (maybe, cause that seems the "Old Seven" ways. You know, be connected to the Cidatel and Old Town and stuff. But he is shown to be "out of those power games", money and stuff. I believe that the old "Power circle" that ruled the Six Kingdoms once was basically outed by him. Who would they be represented by? Most likely the Tyrells, even tho in the Books the tyrells are much closer to High Sparrow, he is STILL charging them and using them as he pleased). Yes, he wants to create a theocracy and cares very little about free will, but that's not his main motivation. I believe that he is "A honest bastard", in the sense that he wants power, but not for the lust of it, but because he is honestly convinced this is for the good of the people. He clearly wants to see a Poor Faith, with no gold crowns, jewels, money, power and corruptions. He wants it clean, poor, near to the people and the common folk. What he did there was obviously good. I mean, ignore the Militant Faith for a moment and everything they did in a power level: he just basically took a very corrupt, rich and powerful institution, and transformed it into a REAL charity,poor and humble association, driven by true faith. He seems to care about other people. Yes he is manipulative, but he is also "A Sensei". George said he was inspired IN PART by Pope Feancis. Now, that Pope can hardly be classified as a power hungry corrupt, can he? So he was obviously inspired by his "poor Church" effort, a good effort. So I believe, and George clearly endorses my view here, that the High Sparrow is a good person wantint to cleanse his faith, yet at the same time wants to enforce that view on the state, destroying everything that will oppose. And that's the "evil" part. Yet, according to this video, he is simply a power hungry mongreal (possibly corrupt) that wants to rebuild an old society. That is far from truth to me. High Septon is a deluded kinda good guy (exept with Homosexuals) which will use force for his means.
I think you’re overlooking the scary side of fundamentalism in order to prop the High Sparrow up as benevolent religious reformer. He’s no theologian like Martin Luther, but rather a zealot like Girolamo Savonarola, whose reforms seem sound until put into practice and spiral into bonfires of the vanities/social mandates/theocracy. I think when Elder Brother/Maribald (more likely) and High Sparrow meet we’ll see a public debate on the soul of the religion. Maribald and the High Sparrow are written like two sides of a coin, only that as The Order of the Green Hand said, any guy who collects approximately 97,000 skulls to make a point worships death. The Silent Sisters alone ring of the HoBW, so it makes sense that the ‘Seven Who Are One’ is an offshoot of the ‘Many Faced God’ after being influenced by the paganism indigenous to Westeros. What this series of videos on the Lying POS Andals argues is what GRRM said himself, the world of ASOIAF is based on our world, and hence it makes sense: a monotheistic nomadic people (Andals/Jews) annexed by a religiously tolerant republic of polytheist slave owners (Valyrians/Romans) assimilated in order to incite violent protests and rebellions (Faceless Men/Sicarii) before undergoing a reformation from a heavenly-appointed messiah (Hugor Hill/Jesus Christ) and spreading west to encounter a sophisticated pagan warrior culture (First Men/Franks/Celts) whom they assimilated with in order to convert (Catholic Church/The Faith). If The Faith IS based on the Catholic Church it would certainly orchestrate political affairs, use its status as ‘learned men’ to control scientific/social progress, and incite the nobles and commonfolk into Holy Crusades. Unlike Savonarola, however, the High Sparrow has read his Machiavelli and has the Faith Militant to enforce his reforms.
"George said he was inspired IN PART by Pope Feancis. Now, that Pope can hardly be classified as a power hungry corrupt, can he? So he was obviously inspired by his "poor Church" effort, a good effort. So I believe, and George clearly endorses my view here, that the High Sparrow is a good person wantint to cleanse his faith" This is a big stretch. You're making some assumptions here. In your same post under point 4, you already pointed out that there isn't just black and white, yet here you are making a black and white statement. No, he is not "obviously" "good" just because George based his character partly on Pope Francis. No George does not "clearly endorse" your views here. And who said Pope Francis has to be a good person? You don't know him personally, his public persona definitely makes him appear to be a good person though. That's not the same.
There was a line, I want to say in a Tyrion or Cersei chapter, where they mention there is always a candle lit for the stranger, that stuck with me. The way it was worded - like why bother putting such boring unnecessary detail about it? I think because it's so subtle, it seems like he loves easing information in by lulling us with other noncrucial details. Anything blatant is usually more or less false.
Another interesting parallel; there are 3 stages for each sex, ending with death. Young men (Warrior), Aged men (Smith), Old men (Father), Young women (Maiden), Aged women (Mother), Old women (Crone).
I already posted this on last week's video but I really hope for an answer since I made my own little theory based on symbolism(it's not important for the story and stuff but maybe it's correct): I stumbled upon an interesting passage in a feast for crows, the last Alayne chapter. You probably know but just to be sure: do you know of what Ronnel Arryn (the brother of Jon Arryn) died? He died of a *"bad belly"* right around the time his son was born. Born to his wife: a Belmore. Now, there isn't much known about the Belmores, as far as I'm concerned. The current Lord Belmore is a part of the declaration but Baelish states that he's corrupt. The Belmor's sigil are *six bells on a purple field* . Ther're three bells in a line, below two and then one. Bells are commonly used in the churche and are symbol of wisdom and *god's voice* on earth. Wisdom -> Citadel? God -> the Faith? The number six stands for *perfection* (because the numbers it can be divided through -> 1,2,3 (reminder, the bells are split up in groups of 1,2,3) - add up to the number itself) while the number 666 is a symbol of the *devil* . Well, the Faith seems entirely made to hide the true religion of the Andals and gain control over the people in Westeros. Their true god is probably the great other. The "devil". Also, it sometimes stands for *health and healing* , another nod to the citadel. I am aware that that purple is the eye colour of the old Valyria and the amethyst empress. Purple is a mix of red and blue which, now that I think of it, kind of sounds like Ice and Fire. (thoughts?) It's associated with nobility, luxury, power, devotion and ambition but also with *the sacred* and the *third eye* . It is said that a little purple will enhance the creativity and too much will cause moodiness. Now, that's where I draw the distinction between "Valyrian purple" and "Belmore purple" so it's not the same. So, we conclude: -> religious but for the great other (bells, six, purple (->third eye)) -> supports the Citadel (bells, six) -> devoted (purple) At least that's my solution. Now, we don't know who raised Elbert but I find it doubtful that he and Jon Arryn shared a close relationship for two reasons: -> Robert and Ned were Jon's wards so they'd have been in contact with Elbert if Jon had raised him. But Ned never thinks of him, iirc. -> Jon called his banners in defense of Ned and Robert and not because the Mad King killed Elbert, there isn't a word lost about him. That leads me to believe that Elbert was *raised* by the Belmores. More specifically: *by the Faith* because the Belmores were probably *devoted* (coming from the colour purple and the bells in their sigil) to the Faith and Elbert was raised as the Faith pleased. Well, for some *weird* reason Jon Arryn didn't manage to get *children* , something that also happened to Maegor. So at that time, the son of Ronnel, Elbert, probably obidient to the Faith, was heir to the Vale. Exactly that might be one of the reasons - why *King Aerys killed him* . Varys would have known all of that and informed him that the Faith wanted an even stronger connection to the Vale so when the time was "convenient" the Mad King executed him. Now, that *plan of the faith failed* and I won't get into Harry the Heir's backstory but there're two interesting details concerning him that I want to point out. -> his mother's sister are either a) dead, b) unable to get childs or c) *members of the faith* -> his mother "perished" after naming him, as did Ronnel around the birth of Elbert So I'm not certain wether Harry is influenced by the churche but I am pretty certain that the Faith is trying to manipulate the Vale heavily even though it's a kingdom of the Andals. Why? What do you think? Love your videos, you're the greatest channel for a Song of Ice and Fire! Also, this series is so interesting, keep it up!
So for clarification ... Are you trying to say the Faith of the Seven believe that their god is the same God of Many Faces of the House of Black and White? I know the Faceless Men themselves lay claim to the Stranger from the Seven as well as all the other gods of men. BUT if it is as you said in previous videos the Andals truly left Westeros/Bravos because of their religious fanaticism and NOT fear of the Valyrians- I thought you were going to be arguing that the Seven were a repackaging of the same religion as the human sacrificing/slaving Ghiscari who you argued bore similarity to the Blood Stone Emperor and then all the similarities to the Lion of the Night and other imagery similar to the Others, the wall over there etc. etc.? And so why then would they need to reinvent their religion if the everyone already in Westeros was already worshiping the Weirwoods in Westeros? Everyone meaning i.e. Children of the Forest and the First Men. I thought Maestor Luwin going to the Weirwood tree had more to do with him being influenced by living his life in the North and of the Old Gods, than because of any teaching of from the Faith of the Seven. I don't disagree the Seven and the High Septon being associated the blood-sacrifice I just don't believe they're doing it to the Weirdwood. There's no weirwood in the square or Sept of Balor, or any other sept, from the Faithful to be bringing all those bodies too. Anywhere else the Andals took over there seems to be the eradication of Weirwoods. I don't deny that I think the Andals believed the Weirwoods have power but I think they view them as threat, and if the Weirwoods can get power from sacrifices so can the Faith of the Seven and whoever they really stand for.
I agree with you here. If the 7 = The Many Faced God = Death = Weirwoods, why did the Andals (who brought the 7 pointed star) chop down the Weirwoods and wage war on the Children when they arrived in Westeros?
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These videos give some nice details but what you mentioned came to my mind instantly. It is weird that they didn't notice that Andals cut off as many weirwoods as they could and did a genocide to the children of the forest.
@ The guys running this channel have simply explained away these valid objections by saying that "the history of the maesters cannot be trusted". That's all well and good until you realize that we come across very little weirwoods in the South. Those that are there are only in the godswood of certain Southern castles. We know that the First Men adopted the Old Gods at least after the Pact with the Children. So why would the Andals need to invent a false religion that secretly worships death and weirwoods, when the First Men were already doing that long before they set their foot in Westeros? All of this is awfully convoluted.
@ Another problem I have with this channel's speculations and line of thinking is that they believe the Valyrians were the "good guys" in general. When people point out Valyrian slavery, they just wave it off by saying, "Oh they were better slavers than the Ghiscari, and they only adopted slavery after annihilating Old Ghis. Ergo, the Ghiscari corrupted the good guy Valyrians." Fuckin' NO! There are multiple sources independent of the Citadel that strongly suggest that the Valyrians were worse: the Ghiscari themselves (horrible as they are), the Faceless Men, the people of Braavos (which includes followers of religions other than that of the Many-Faced God, such as the Moonsingers and all other faiths tolerated in Braavos), and last but not the least: the absolute desolation that are the Rhoynish cities. Multiple civilizations and groups of people all pointing to the cruelty and slavemongering of the Valyrians, and these guys believe that the Valyrians represented "light, warmth and life" while their adversaries were somehow on the side of "darkness and death and the Others". The mental gymnastics is unbelievable.
Wait if the weir woods are an aspect of the Stranger then why would it be necessary for the andals to invent the the Faith of the Seven in the first. The first men already worshipped death if you're theory is correct. And if the weir woods are an aspect of the stranger then why did the andals chop down the trees when arriving in westeros? Curious to know what you guys think on it
As stated by Littlefinger “Always keep your foes confused. If they are never certain who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next. Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you. Remember that, Sansa, when you come to play the game.”
The children of the forest and the first men who worship the old gods believe there souls will go into the trees, therefore they will live forever. This is why the faceless men don't see the old gods as one of the aspects of he of many faces, if the faith of the seven is also a death religion, the undeathness of the weirwood-net would be at odds with everything they believe.
did they? the Arryns desperately tried to get a weirwood to grow in their castle and have a weirwood throne and in spite of what Catelyn thinks in her first POV chapter, there seems to be weirwoods in the godswoods of most castles south of the Neck
The Order of the Green Hand i was thinking about the same. I love your videos but sometimes my knowledge isn't enough to understand everything. If there were the weirwoods already, why create a new faith instead of keeping the "old gods"?
I wondered this also, but was it the andals who were chopping them down or the first men? Seems like the 1st men were chopping them down and warring with the children of the Forrest?
DAMN CLEVER! Really! Well done and well researched and well thought!! This is one of your most insightful videos yet! I'm saving a copy of this one! Bravo! And thank you both for finding time to keep up with these despite your person lives getting busier, it is noticed and appreciated =)
Hey Mr and Mrs Greenhand, go check out "The Seven Tablets of Creation," from ancient Sumer. Especially the passages about Slaying the Dragon. Might shed some light on where George is going with all this.
The Order of the Green Hand I have a few more ideas on it if you like the reading. If not totally fine too. Btw, I really love and appreciate the videos. Thank you both and Merry Christmas :)
Fascinating about Lewin leaving himself for the Old Gods, though being a Southern follower of the Seven beforehand! Is it because he wants to still know what's going on in the realm/world after death, making it clear that he believes the old tales far more than he claimed he did (a.k.a., not one iota) to Bran?
A simpler and easier explanation is that since he's served the Starks for decades, he's opened up/grown fond of Northern culture. It's like Lewin has adopted the Northern beliefs deep inside his heart, though he might not have admitted it to others (or even to himself). When he realized he was dying, he finally realized that he would prefer to die under the ultimate symbol of the North: the weirwood, which had also morphed into the ultimate symbol of his own life (which he spent in service of the North). That is much more sensible than "the 7 are a secret weirwood death cult" hypothesis. Why bother creating a convoluted and intolerant religion that secretly worships death and weirwoods when the First Men were already doing that openly for thousands of years?
@@made-line7627 Thanks. I'd also like to say that this channel is not entirely wrong in their assessment of maesters and Lewin. It is quite clear by their biased and nonsensical history writing that the Andals, the Faith, and the Citadel are indeed "lying pieces of shit". So it is quite possible that Lewin knew, or eventually came to know, about the power of the weirwoods and so he went there so that he could live on inside the weirwood net after his death. However, some of the theories of this channel are so needlessly and obnoxiously complex and convoluted that I'm beginning to find the simpler, more mundane explanations far more appealing.
But what would actually mean that Swords have on banner a crystal sword of the White Walkers? What would be connection between Andals (Swords/Faith of the 7) and White Walkers?
The note of Cersei observing "men whose teeth had been filed into points" makes me think of Biter, and how George said Rorge found Biter as an orphan and raised him feral to fight in illegal bear and dog fighting pits in Flea Bottom. That person might have been another one of those feral raised fighters.
Hmm, your videos are making me increasingly more bewildered by the fact that the Hound now resides on Quiet Isle and so if he's supposed to be on a redemption arc while the faith is really this sadistic and actually tied to a death cult, what does that mean for him then? Will he discover that, and fight them maybe? Or will he stay on their side, thus making him part of the problem in the end? I haven't read the last book published yet, and thinking about getting all of the books on audible to listen to again faster than I would read them. I definitely believe the HoB&W is tied to the COTF though and the old gods and that they're doing blood sacrifices in their deepest chambers to some weirwood trees or something after hearing that on either your or Ideas of Ice and Fire's channel, can't remember now w/o looking back.
Yet another well researched and thoughtful video, thank you! I do have a question, and perhaps you'll address this in a later video about the POS Andals: The history we're presented says the Andals cut and burned weirwoods when they arrived in Westeros because they thought they were sacred to the First Men, which is why not many are found south of The Neck. I always thought this was a bit suspect, as we also know that prior to 'The Pact' the First Men, while warring with the children, would get rid of weirwood trees, and (while I do not consider the show a valid source of canon) the show does say the Children created the Others in response to being killed off and their sacred trees being destroyed, but the Others first appeared before the Andals arrived in Westeros. So it seems plausible that the Andals didn't really need to destroy any weirwoods since the First Men would have largely done the job for them (south of The Neck at least), is this another lie in their history or is there more to this that I'm not catching? Cheers and thanks for the great content.
So Kings Landing is now filled with the dead and dying !!! I was wondering how GRRM was planning to do a lot of damage in westeros in just 2 books when the Others are still north of the wall by the end of ADWD !!!
He said that he will finish when and where he needs to. We might have an 8th book if he lives long enough. Guy's in his mid 70s and at that age, you WILL recieve the gift of death sooner or later. Then some Great Other Evil inside his mind convinced him to write about Dunk and Egg and a history on the reign of House Targaryen before finishing the main books
I love this set of "Lying Andals" videos. They're almost as good as your N+A=J videos, but those videos are a lot more elaborate and intriguing. Happy Holidays, thx for the video
Great series, very interesting, especially because you delve into parts of the background story that haven't really been explored that much so far. Have you considered the Faith of the Seven in terms of the Bloodstone Emperor's Church of Starry Wisdom? I've always felt that the Faith may have developed from this ancient religion, perhaps even going underground for centuries/millennia, before undergoing a reformation and revival to reemerge as the Andal Faith in Westeros. You mention the crystal sword that likens the swords of the Others. This brings to mind the double-sided ax, once also an Andal symbol, and the correlating double-sided ax placed in the midst of the slaughtered Wildlings in the very first prologue chapter of the books. I see your point regarding the weirwoods being somehow involved in the aspect of death, but I do not think that this was originally the case. In a nutshell, I believe the weirwoods are under a curse brought about by the misdeeds of the children of the forest. The original Winged Knight could have been a dragonrider and tearless Alyssa Arryn may well have been a person of dragon blood herself - thinking of the theme of weeping here - dragon people like Daenerys do not weep. Another interesting point which might be of significance to your investigation regards the naming of constellations - the Smith (aspect of the Seven) is known to the freefolk as the Thief. What do you make of that? Looking forward to your next installment and keep up the good work!
I think the faith is based on the church of starry wisdom. They're worshipping Nyarlathotep, the crawling chaos, the faceless god, the haunter in the dark.
Ok, so to be clear, you guys think the firstmen worshiped the tree & water spirits i.e. nature, and were responsible for cutting down all the weirwoods until the pact? Is that accurate? ...and if so, how/when/why did the Northmen forget about the past and get tricked into worshiping the many faced god (in this hypothesis)? You may have already covered this, i haven't seen all your material, but you guys definitely got me thinking, nice job guys!
Thank you for all the theories you have done. You‘ve been enlighting me since I found your channel and I look forward to each and every single video you put up. Please keep on going with great content
Okay! Have you guys ever considered that the Faith probably (most definitely) orchestrated Robert’s Rebellion? According to all accounts, Rhaegar was a kind, noble, and valiant man who would’ve probably been one of Westeros’ greatest kings had he lived long enough to sit the throne. Literally the only person in all the books who has anything ill to say about Rhaegar is Robert. Robert calls Rhaegar a monster for taking Lyanna, but I think it was hammered into his head by the Faith. Even Ned Stark, who was probably closest to Lyanna had nothing bad to say about Rhaegar and went so far as to actively defend Daenerys and her unborn child
I like it, the Silent Sisters I feel like are going to come into the story a little more in the future. Its like Euron Greyjoy's mutes. Maybe they are all hive mind or being controlled by something.
I really like this series you guys are doing. I like how you break down everything and explain it in detail. When I read through the books the first time I barely noticed any of these things...like the pile of bones, I didn't think much of it....until now....where did they get all those bones!? Now you guys have me wondering about so many more things! Can't wait for the next video!
Congrats for another great video. I think you guys are spot on about pretty much everything. I have a question though. If the Andals masqueraded their religion to sell it to the inhabitants of Westeros, how did they sell the lie to their own people as well? I mean it wasn't just the maesters, the septons and their kings, their numbers included a lot of commoners as well.
I love this channel and love watching your videos every week! I've only ever Patreoned for one other person but I am seriously considering joining up with yall.
An "orphan" can mean just one parent has died. (Often, we use that term when both have died though.) I agree with your conclusion that the Faith of the Seven is evil and could potentially just kill the mothers, but just thought I'd throw that out there.
You guys always give me so much to think about and so many rabbit wholes to explore.... Great job as always. Wishing you both a very special and safe holiday season. Love and hugs 💖💖💖🦏🦏🦏🐘🐘🐘
The Quiet Isle sounds like a strange place where women give birth, like it's some out-of-place maternity hospital. I don't know if the mothers are "being killed" because death from childbirth is common in Westeros. Great video and cool theories.
it just seems to me that the fact that it says the orphans are taken in by the faith is really creepy because it seems as though they are either killing the mothers or stealing their babies from them
If the old gods of the weirwood trees and the stranger of the seven are the same: why get the first men who had already converted to the old gods of the weirwood to convert to the same religion under a different name? Theres no point and it doesn't make sense.
At the end of your video, I was wondering whom the High Sparrow was refering to when he talks about demon worshipers. Could it be to the Northmen, because many "state" relgions tend to claim gods from other creeds to be demons if their worshipping stays strong, or the North is the only part of the Seven Kingdoms that the Faith doesn't control (even if they have planted maesters there). Also the quote of Meribald made me think that the three masculine figures of the Seven are linked to the three orders of the feudal society. And what you said about the Smith made me immediately think about the Faceless Men. Well, I must say that this serie makes me think a lot, a good point I must say.
from a follower of the faith point of view, the religion of the Lord of Light (don't remember the name) can be seen as demon worshippers, especially considering how they love to tear down the the seven's idols and burn people loyal to the faith, not saying they are evil, I actually like the Lord of Light relegion better than any other religion in ASOIAF, at least they seem to be the only ones fighting against the true evil, the Great Other
Quite true. Actually to zealots such as the High Sparrow every other faith could be considered demons' worshiping may it be the cult of R'hllor, of the Northern gods or of the Drowned God. If they can't hold the minds of these people, they would eventually label them as demon's worshipers.
If you made like an hour long video that would be total epic. Ever read The long Earth series by Terry pratchett and Stephen Baxter? Defo reccomend them. :) Hope you both have an amazing christmas.
one thing to point out the romans were religilousy tolerant intill the christians (and a handful of other religions that were not so succeful) and since valyria is atleast partly based off rome it might be that the faith of the seven was seen for the threat it was to their rule and thus whipped out
2:39 the Warrior looks a like Jaime with his golden armor. I wonder if that was done on purpose on George's account, or Jaime styled himself after the Warrior as a way to escape the scorn of being labeled Kingslayer.
That and did you notice that the Smith has a horned helmet (i.e. Gendry), the maiden has a canine (possibly a fox) as well as flower petals which reminiscent of house Florent's sigil as well as a bird close to a half-moon (i.e. the Arryn sigil) as well as a blue(?) flower in her hair which is reminiscent of Lyanna Stark. Edit: Maybe we are supposed to see characters in the aspects (making them relatable for common folk). Well, this goes for everyone except the Stranger.
I GRRM is kind of naiv when it comes to religion as only evil. Mankind is a People Who have tried to kill each other right from the start of our exsistens. And destroying religion is not going to chance that.
Thank the gods you're here GreenHand; finally some stern story-craft analysis amidst the sea of "RLJ prophecy - why Arya will end up riding the Night King in the last scene" tripe . Anything but "S3as0n 8 Ep1s0d3 L3@kz - C0NF1RM3D!!!1!1!!1!" Seriously, If I could slap some channels, I would. Very happy that I can help support you guys; every video is totally worth it.
+jambi Jambii (Bane voice) - But of c0urs3! Have you not read the leaked script for S08E02 #confirmed #wtf #ofcourse #shiftstick # EverythingIsAwesome #GoneSexual #NevermindTheBooks #MustPublishContentEveryday #GOTIsALLIHave #TradeGossip #LikeFishwives
hi greenhands. I've really been enjoying your series collections. Incredible work! I posted my original theory last year "7 gods are 7 characters " shared with you and 2 other youtube sites. There's no mention of the 7 in Essos because they may have been 7 actual people who were pivotal in defeating the whitewalkers thousands of years ago. History is very unreliable in this story and may be repeating itself. I'm convinced that the 7 are 7 actual characters. Each has the individual qualities of one aspect of the 7, as follows below. 1. The father/Jaime, father of Cersei children, repeated remarks about justice, judgment 2.The mother/Dany, Mhysa, mother of dragons ect 3.The maiden /Brienne, innocence, virginity 4.The crone/Melisandre, Ancient, lights the way, "lord of light show us the way" 5. The warrior /Jorah, champion of the fighting pits, knighted in the name of the warrior by king Robert. 6.the smith/Gendry, will forge weapons and possibly valaryian steel with samwells help. 7. The stranger /Arya, a girl is no one, a stranger, assassin, death, and the unknown. Each character has a role to play in defeating the whitewalkers, as did their legendary counterparts. Thoughts welcomed. Love QOT.🌹
I am not sure I get the difference between the old, faceless Gods of the North and the Great Other, the Weirwood God of Death, whose minions are the CoTF. Could you guys explain your theory? Thank you in advance!
Ok, I get it! Then why does Lyanna (if she is the KOLT) bear the weirwood sigil on her shield or Val has a weirwood brooch (if I remember correctly)? They are worshipers of the Stranger/Death God or do they just honour the northern Gods?
@The Order Of The Green Hand your videos are always so insightful and present so many ways various aspects of the stories can be taken. Thank you for doing the footwork/research to be able to present such in-depth videos. I appreciate them very much especially lately.
Hey guys. I am conviced you guys are correct. Though I doubt George would ever confirm it, but the clues are all there and I love it, it is very like him to hide it there for us. Yet I would love to see it reveal on the books! This was perfect.
A thing to consider: the very basis of the Faith of the Seven -- 7 'aspects' of one god -- is reminiscent of the Many-Faced god and the Faceless Men. For a hypothetical comparison, if one were to create a cult around a "Many Faced god," the Faith of the Seven could easily be an 'outer mystery' that anyone would be allowed to learn about just by showing up, whereas the Many-Faced god sh*t would be the stuff only a small circle of people would ever know. Not ready to say I fully buy into these videos, but they aren't without merit. I really could see GRRM coming up with these kinds of ideas. Hopefully we'll get to see the rest of the books, and we can find out once and for all.
Okay I haven't finished the books yet so pardon my confusion. But, does this mean that both the OLD Gods and the new are basically all tied to death? Also, I wonder...is this why the Starks keep their dead in the crypts the way they do? So they can't be brought back and used by the great other?
Let me just say this one point i don't think all the septons and septas know what they really worship. I believe even some of them are blind to the evil they love and if shown the truth they would disown this 7 in one god
Another fantastic Video! Always looking forward to seeing another new video from you guys there always well thought out, interesting and most of all compelling.
We do have a single instance of the faith of the seven in essos, namely in braavos. In a world of ice and fire grrm tells us (through a maester) that there were andals along the first slaves that escaped to braavos who founded a Sept there, which in current times is mostly attended by westerosi merchants, but which does have native septons and septas
I have been wondering why Maester Lewin would go to the gods wood to die thanks for covering it and touching on the Brienne chapters with Nimble Dick I they seemed so perilous for Brienne.
A simpler and easier explanation is that since he's served the Starks for decades, he's opened up/grown fond of Northern culture. It's like Lewin has adopted the Northern beliefs deep inside his heart, though he might not have admitted it to others (or even to himself). When he realized he was dying, he finally realized that he would prefer to die under the ultimate symbol of the North: the weirwood, which had also morphed into the ultimate symbol of his own life (which he spent in service of the North). That is much more sensible than "the 7 are a secret weirwood death cult" hypothesis. Why bother creating a convoluted and intolerant religion that secretly worships death and weirwoods when the First Men were already doing that openly for thousands of years?
@@KhukuriGod the seven have nothing to do with the weirwoods they are connected to the old gods. The weirwoods feed off blood and Lewin went there to die because he knew his consciousness would join with the weirwood net.
@@mozart7820 I agree with basically everything you say, except maybe for the Lewin really knowing the wierwood net part. Anyway, I'll summarize my thoughts: 1. *the seven have nothing to do with the weirwoods* I know. But that's not what this channel says. I was objecting to the weirwood-seven connection these guys were trying to make, which if you think about for only a second, is needlessly convoluted. 2. *they are connected to the old gods.* Indeed they are. Yet these guys say that the "old gods" of the North are actually the original nature gods of the First Men, and that the Children's only major contribution to the Northern creed was the worship of weirwoods. Yet we know that the Children are actually known as "Singers" who "sing the song of the earth", which means they are nature worshippers as well. It's just that their nature worship centers around bloodthirsty trees. So that's a big problem for their "Nature Worship = First Men; Weirwood Death Cult = Children" hypothesis. 3. *The weirwoods feed off blood and Lewin went there to die because he knew his consciousness would join with the weirwood net.* Agreed with the bloodlust of the weirwoods. Not entirely convinced Lewin had esoteric knowledge of the actual workings of the weirwood net, though. However, it is highly plausible that Lewin, like all seasoned maesters, did know more about the reality of magic and the Children than they were letting on. I'm simply saying Lewin's dying actions can also be easily explained by his emotional attachment to House Stark and the North. Occam's Razor.
The fact that they're ready to name an aspect of God based on what they honor, such as the warrior or the smith, shows me that it's not a serious faith. With Christianity, it's the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and that's because the Father showed Himself and sent the Son, and the Son and the Father sent the Spirit, and that's why there's only the Three, because only the Three showed up to humanity. It's consistent. We don't add Persons to God just because we feel that we need to honor something. We have Three because God only showed up as Three Persons. Simple and consistent. Even if people insult us because the Son is seen as weak by nonbelievers, we don't care, because He is one with the Father, whose power is infinite. The Father is in the Son, and the Son, in the Father. So the Son can annihilate anyone who opposes Him, but He chooses to love them instead. We don't care about familiarity, or what people's opinions are, only what our texts and histories tell us as to how God showed Himself. Caring about others' opinions too much can destroy the integrity of a philosophy or religion. Jesus sure as hell didn't care about what others thought, and neither did Aristotle. That's why their beliefs are strong, not pliable and weak.
HolyknightVader999 being capable of reevaluating and scrutinizing your beliefs is important. It allowed people to shift their paradigm like not believing the sun revolves around the earth anymore. The alternative can lead to fanaticism, and in the long run fanaticism leads to the kind of behavior the worshippers of the seven have. Mob mentality, severe closed-mindedness, etc.
And that's the thing. The Vatican can accept that they fucked up and realize that the Earth isn't the center of the universe. The Faith of the Seven can't.
OMG you guys I am loving this series. And I'm loving the indignation at ALL THE LIES. And of course, I'm excited about the return of The Worldwide Weirwood Web in this vid! While getting into this did you give any thought to the theory that the mysteriously-and-vigorously-catapulted-to-power High Sparrow is someone else in disguise (Howland Reed a popular if slightly perplexing suspect)?
there was a time where his mudd colored eyes made us think that he could be the father of the moss eyed greenseer that travels with Bran, but gave up on it pretty quickly when we realized he was the same guy Brienne met on the road...I see him as a modern Septon Moon except smarter and more dangerous
+The Order of the Green Hand Sounds about right as usual! Also, just wanted to wish you Green Handers a happy holiday season and the very best in the new year. Thanks for all your hard work to make 2017 a year full of insight, interesting discussions, humor, and fun!!!
While i like the theory i do have a few questions regarding them 1. If the andals where slavers and founded their religion in braavos then why is braavos the only free city without slavery? 2. The andals and children fought against one another because of religion why do that if they follow the same god? 3. Why where the only nights watchmen that where killed by others until now followers of the seven but not even one old godworshipper?
"and whatever the hell the Norvoshi are doing" 😂😂
I always found The Stranger to be a very odd inclusion to the Seven, and how its often excluded from open conversation and worship. And yet The Stranger is always there, lurking just out of thought.
i think it was martins way of instilling platoian attitudes in one of his main characters
The House of Black and White keeps a statue of the Stranger in its halls. However, Arya is told that he doesn't get many worshipers. So the some vestige of the Seven remains in Esso.
Tell one lie and you are a sinner. Tell seven lies and you are a devout holy man.
thats such a nice line
That's religion for you
After watching this video and the one about why Aegon conquered Westeros it gave me a thought. Sorry if this was mentioned already.
If the 7 really is a death-worshipping cult, Aegon putting an end to the constant war, brutality and consequently death would seriously put a hamper on “offerings” to their god.
Also, by removing the Targaryens, they remove the one unifying force that could oppose The Others when the next Long Night came. Possibly why the faith kept trying to remove the Targaryens from power.
Loved the video, thanks!
That’s definitely in line with our thinking on the topic
At first I thought the concept of the Seven faith being a death cult was silly. But the fact that you guys present such compelling evidence has convinced me that you are right. This is so damn creepy! Especially the Quiet Isle part. Maegor should have destroyed the Faith entirely! Brilliant channel, guys. Love your work. Keep it up!
Thank you!
There is a difference between a religion helping to cope with death and actively worshipping or hoping for death. But I suppose all religions could be seen as a form of death worship since most religions tell their followers to be more concerned with a superior afterlife rather than trying to better their lot in this life.
Others are commenting on Catholicism as the inspiration for the Faith of the Seven and to me the Quiet Isle part instantly made me think of the scandals involving Catholic nuns abducting infants from indigent or underage mothers (after caring for them during pregnancy) and then putting the babies up for adoption. Ugh.
The Faith of the Seven gave me a Catholic vibe too. The High Septon made me think of the Pope.
Damn. Even the Old Ways and chopping off people's heads for Blood Sacrifices in the religion of Old Gods sounds far better alternative to die. Atleast Old Gods' religion isn't a political juggernaut that the shitty Faith is in it's purest form. Less of a religion, more of a cult which wants to stay in power.
There is another channel which talks about Children being the "main evil" in the story as they wanted a scapegoat people to offer blood sacrifices unquestionably to the Old Gods worshipped by Children and used Others as a leverage over the First Men to keep them in line after their purpose of defending against humans finished after the Pact. Note that First Men converted to Old Gods during Age of Heroes and not Dawn Age. He claimed that Children were now plotting to wipe out humanity from Westeros and reclaim their lost lands and groves after 12000 years
You know nothing jon snow makes more sense now. EVERYONE IS A LIAR. Of course he doesn't know anything
So question as it relates to the weirwoods and the stranger. If they are related, where do the direwolves fit in? In Jon's last chapter in a storm of swords, he's contemplating Stanis's offer when Ghost finally shows up again and Jon notes how he has the eyes of the weirwoods and how he is of the old gods (I know there's sort of an amalgamation with the old gods of the first men and the weirwoods, but it's specifically the red eyes and mouth with ghost white fur that gets Jon thinking that). The direwolves don't seem to be symbols of death, but protectors and companions for the Starks. It's also noted in the same chapter how the weirwood is the heart of Winterfell, and if Winterfell is really where the battle for the dawn ended, why would they maintain a symbol associated with the great other?
So, during the walk of atonement, is the idea that Cersei saw Biter and Rorge (filed teeth and weeping sores) or that the FM had used the same type of magic on the crowd members to make them similarly terrifying? I got a little confused about the point of that right at the end. Either way would be fascinating.
The Vale is very interesting when you think about it. Major houses like Royce and Redfort are very proud of their first Man heritage yet serve a notorious Andal house (Arryn). You have to wonder at the very least. There has to be some resentment in the Vale as it holds the largest amount of first men outside of the north.
This series is amongst the most eye opening of all theory videos. Letters + what ever, this hands down. The seven being the death cult. Most like a pawn of the great other. An it's not a stretch of the imagination, it's just simply out lining things that are well known an my own mind began to run down the same road about the faceless men. The desire of those deep in the cult to be fed to the trees. Just bravo. Well done. Will watch again.
Thank you so much
What if it's revealed that both The Great Other and The Lord of Light are playing their own game, to see who comes on top until the cycle is doomed to repeat itself 8,000 years later?
But what about Euron in a feast of crows he is seen in a vision sitting on the iron throne with all the gods The Great Other and The Lord of Light included impaled on the spikes dead
Wolfsbane Alphas I'm pretty sure he wants to become a god, or he wants to make everyone an atheist
@@skylermaves7272 I saw a theory that Euron wants to become the new Bloodstone Emperor.
@@skylermaves7272 Hella way to make everyone not believe in gods lol
Dreams of an insane man who shows intelligence to fulfill his perversions
So they have brought in a statue sized pile of Trojan warriors inside the gates of King's Landing for the Others to raise as Wights. Nice.
I like most of your videos, but I think this series is your masterpiece so far. Good job!
In Feast, Cersei explains how the High Septon loses his name when he steps into his office. He then litteraly becomes "no one". I guess this fits pretty well with what you're exposing here.
Wait what?!
Maegor the Wise
Damn, Rorge and Bitter working as helpers to Jaquar makes even more sense now with the way that Dorn made sellsword help with the grand plan of the faith.
Two sides all the way.
Just earlier this morning i was thinking about your videos and how i missed, cause its been some time. So glad that i opened my youtube to see this. Thank you guys for bringing such a rich content, it adds so much to the experience of knowing asoiaf. Best Wishes from Brasil. I hope you guys make a video about Doran Martell and what is going on with his plans, that seems to work against his family
You guys have risen to the top in terms of convincing theory videos!
Your theories are always compelling!
Keep up the great work.
thank you...we will certainly try
Agreed.
So When Arias’ dance instructor says “There is only one god” ... Death.
.... and what to we say to him? Not today.
This is what he was referencing.
Who the fuck is Aria?
@@markbrennan212 The Girl who is part of the Faceless Men. She can disguise her body by transforming her face into the face of other people.
Oh man, I started to feel mire than a bit sick when you described what was going on the pregnant mothers on the Quiet Isle. It's funny when I first listened to that passage I felt really unsettled, but it hadn't fully registered. Now I have that same feeling all over again, but doubled!
As a child growing up in Brazil I got obviously got a few good looks in Christ the Redeemer Statue, and imagining THAT covered waist deep in rotting skulls bearing mute part in all the monstrosities of society is absolutely great. TERRIBLE. But great.
I liked this one. But I think you could have gone into more depth about the possible true origins of the Faith of the Seven. I really see two possibilities here.
1. The Faith did technically originate with the Andals of Essos (with the example of Argos Sevenstar, who attacked the North), but were an unpopular or heretical sect in Andalos itself, and possibly forcibly expelled to Westeros. This could make the religion related to "whatever the Norvoshi are doing", as they seem to share ax symbolism (used by early Andal arrivals), the use of bells and seem to be Monothiestic. It also fits with speculation that Norvos was originally an Andal settlement, before the Valyrians showed up. This could also explain Qarlon the Great wanting to take Norvos, as if he was trying to unite all the Andals, and the Norvoshi were really mostly Andal, he would have seen it as "rightfully" belonging to his domain. Perhaps if the Norvoshi religion started as a sort of heretical sect or cult among the Andals they might have feared suppression by Qarlon, and thus motivated their reaching out to the Freehold. IE: our understanding of Norvos might be reversed. They weren't freeing the "intolerable" religious tolerance of the Freehold, but using it to protect their own religious identity, possibly from other Andals.
2. The Faith is an invention of the Oldtown conspiracy, which predated even the arrival of the Andals. This allowed Oldtown a virtual monopoly on religious authority, sorcery and information, by dividing these between the Starry Sept, the Hightower, and the Citadel. This fits well with the words of Garth IX Gardener, who was the first king of the Reach to welcome the Andals "When a wolf descends upon your flocks, all you gain by killing him is a short respite, for other wolves will come. If instead you feed the wolf and tame him and turn his pups into your guard dogs, they will protect the flock when the pack comes ravening." This indicates that the Faith of the Seven, at least in it's current (organized, centralized and hierarchical) form might not have just been to control the native smallfolk, but the tide of Andal immigrants as well, averting ethnic tensions by creating a common religion to unite the people under.
It's also worth noting that while the Faith of the Seven seems to be a proselytizing religion, like the Followers of R'hlor, it's failed to even reach back to Essos, and only seems concerned with converting Westeros. Which is another strange parallel to the Maesters, who though very prolific in their academic exploits in Westeros, seem unable to, or uninterested in establishing themselves in Essos. Especially considering all the contact between the Free Cities and the Seven Kingdoms.
that's coming in the next video
I'm filled with anticipation!
I just had a thought that relates to this. It's also mentioned that Garth IX wanted their engineering and metal-working knowledge, their smithing. What better way to "tame" the Andal wolves, then to convince their smiths that working their craft for their Kings and Lords is a religious duty.
Church of Starry Wisdom
Well noted.
Meh it's the first time I disagree with one of the videos. Specifically, the whole "High Sparrow lied".
First of all, he didn't explicitly state that those bones were collected lately. In fact, it's much more likely they are a cumulative group of bones, taken during the years of war. Secondly, I don't remember the travel of the High Sparrow being that short. In fact (even in other ASOIAF theory videos), his travel was much longer, and still would have touched the river lands.
It's not just Clegane, the entire Lannister army was known to be cruel "Burn the villages, burn the farms".
So:
1) It's not unlinely that those bones were from war. In fact, they are far too many to be part of some "conspiracy" in which the Silent Sisters took bones and used them to fabricate a false evidence. Also, this would require a great coordination, and the High Sparrow was a simple Septon, he had basically no power. It would require the cooperation of some Higher member of the order, like some Most Holy, but that would both be absurd (SOMEONE would have known), and nonsense (the whole point was to destroy the clergy in power, and make a new one. What crazy Most Devout or whatever would support the High Sparrow in a suicide mission?).
2) It's not unlikely he collected those bones from war, and in fact ASOIAF is filled with corpses all over the stories in those regions. Even Brienne found some in her travel. Also, the High Sparrow could maybe fool the Queen(Maybe?) but was he so clever to fool THE ENTIRE population of those regions too? They saw war, and they came with him to King's Landing, some of them should know the truth, it would be easy to say "No Septon-massacre" happened, duh". I find it more likely that this huge crowd was actually mad because the High Sparrow was telling the truth (duh).
3) Sorry but the whole Quiet Isle is fascinating...yet with near to no evidence. I'm not saying it's not true, cause George loves a dark twist and that would be a hell of a twist, kudos for you for thinking about this, but m8, what is the evidence?
An isle in which pregnant women go and have children, that are taken as orphans. We are "assuming" they are actually killed (why? Why the effort? What's the point? Have they been doing this for centuries, just so that one day a random Sparrow would take power? They love bones? They to mean things? Wouldn't the Most Devout know? So many problems) women and children. I see no evidence of it, it's very unlikely and seems to be kinda "pushed".
4) The whole channel made a great job at uncovering the lies of the Andals, and the Seven. Kudos for that, too.
However, I think that this direction has maybe "pushed" this theory beyond correction. Like "Andals and Seven Faith MUST be evil at all cost, and everything they say MUST be lies". George clearly shows us that some factions we are lead to believe to be evil, can actually be good, or have good members. There is no Black and White, exept me cause I'm obviously Lawful good and charming. This video in particular seems to go on with the whole thing "Hey they must be evil, so the Septon said something very likely (Priests murdered during war, something so common is basically like breathing, nobody cares, and that's the problem for him) and used it to take power....it must be a lie, since the Seven use lies to take power". Well, nope.
I see no evidence for it. And it's not like "Jon Snow's Twin", so a "Likely" theory that I still find hard to see happening (but could 100% be true since it's very rational), this is both unlikely and not very rational.
5) Final note: Yeah, we all know how creepy the Seven Faith is.
If you compare it to every Chuch in history, it is much more bloodier and cruel. It's like a dark, twisted version of Middle Ages, that laster forever. But....ain't we exaggerating on the High Septon? Yes, he was obviously power-driven, machiavellic and had no conception of State-Church separation (but really, WHO had that conception? This is kinda middle-ages, really). Yes, he wanted to control the King, control the Information (maybe, cause that seems the "Old Seven" ways. You know, be connected to the Cidatel and Old Town and stuff. But he is shown to be "out of those power games", money and stuff. I believe that the old "Power circle" that ruled the Six Kingdoms once was basically outed by him. Who would they be represented by? Most likely the Tyrells, even tho in the Books the tyrells are much closer to High Sparrow, he is STILL charging them and using them as he pleased). Yes, he wants to create a theocracy and cares very little about free will, but that's not his main motivation. I believe that he is "A honest bastard", in the sense that he wants power, but not for the lust of it, but because he is honestly convinced this is for the good of the people. He clearly wants to see a Poor Faith, with no gold crowns, jewels, money, power and corruptions. He wants it clean, poor, near to the people and the common folk. What he did there was obviously good. I mean, ignore the Militant Faith for a moment and everything they did in a power level: he just basically took a very corrupt, rich and powerful institution, and transformed it into a REAL charity,poor and humble association, driven by true faith. He seems to care about other people. Yes he is manipulative, but he is also "A Sensei". George said he was inspired IN PART by Pope Feancis.
Now, that Pope can hardly be classified as a power hungry corrupt, can he? So he was obviously inspired by his "poor Church" effort, a good effort. So I believe, and George clearly endorses my view here, that the High Sparrow is a good person wantint to cleanse his faith, yet at the same time wants to enforce that view on the state, destroying everything that will oppose.
And that's the "evil" part. Yet, according to this video, he is simply a power hungry mongreal (possibly corrupt) that wants to rebuild an old society. That is far from truth to me. High Septon is a deluded kinda good guy (exept with Homosexuals) which will use force for his means.
Mortebianca I agree. This seemed weaker than most of their other videos
I think you’re overlooking the scary side of fundamentalism in order to prop the High Sparrow up as benevolent religious reformer. He’s no theologian like Martin Luther, but rather a zealot like Girolamo Savonarola, whose reforms seem sound until put into practice and spiral into bonfires of the vanities/social mandates/theocracy. I think when Elder Brother/Maribald (more likely) and High Sparrow meet we’ll see a public debate on the soul of the religion. Maribald and the High Sparrow are written like two sides of a coin, only that as The Order of the Green Hand said, any guy who collects approximately 97,000 skulls to make a point worships death. The Silent Sisters alone ring of the HoBW, so it makes sense that the ‘Seven Who Are One’ is an offshoot of the ‘Many Faced God’ after being influenced by the paganism indigenous to Westeros. What this series of videos on the Lying POS Andals argues is what GRRM said himself, the world of ASOIAF is based on our world, and hence it makes sense: a monotheistic nomadic people (Andals/Jews) annexed by a religiously tolerant republic of polytheist slave owners (Valyrians/Romans) assimilated in order to incite violent protests and rebellions (Faceless Men/Sicarii) before undergoing a reformation from a heavenly-appointed messiah (Hugor Hill/Jesus Christ) and spreading west to encounter a sophisticated pagan warrior culture (First Men/Franks/Celts) whom they assimilated with in order to convert (Catholic Church/The Faith). If The Faith IS based on the Catholic Church it would certainly orchestrate political affairs, use its status as ‘learned men’ to control scientific/social progress, and incite the nobles and commonfolk into Holy Crusades. Unlike Savonarola, however, the High Sparrow has read his Machiavelli and has the Faith Militant to enforce his reforms.
"George said he was inspired IN PART by Pope Feancis. Now, that Pope can hardly be classified as a power hungry corrupt, can he? So he was obviously inspired by his "poor Church" effort, a good effort. So I believe, and George clearly endorses my view here, that the High Sparrow is a good person wantint to cleanse his faith"
This is a big stretch. You're making some assumptions here. In your same post under point 4, you already pointed out that there isn't just black and white, yet here you are making a black and white statement.
No, he is not "obviously" "good" just because George based his character partly on Pope Francis. No George does not "clearly endorse" your views here. And who said Pope Francis has to be a good person? You don't know him personally, his public persona definitely makes him appear to be a good person though. That's not the same.
There was a line, I want to say in a Tyrion or Cersei chapter, where they mention there is always a candle lit for the stranger, that stuck with me. The way it was worded - like why bother putting such boring unnecessary detail about it? I think because it's so subtle, it seems like he loves easing information in by lulling us with other noncrucial details. Anything blatant is usually more or less false.
@The Order Of The Green Hand thank you for always being so active in the comments with your adoring audience/followers. Its very kind of you.
Another interesting parallel; there are 3 stages for each sex, ending with death. Young men (Warrior), Aged men (Smith), Old men (Father), Young women (Maiden), Aged women (Mother), Old women (Crone).
I already posted this on last week's video but I really hope for an answer since I made my own little theory based on symbolism(it's not important for the story and stuff but maybe it's correct):
I stumbled upon an interesting passage in a feast for crows, the last Alayne chapter.
You probably know but just to be sure: do you know of what Ronnel Arryn (the brother of Jon Arryn) died? He died of a *"bad belly"* right around the time his son was born. Born to his wife: a Belmore.
Now, there isn't much known about the Belmores, as far as I'm concerned. The current Lord Belmore is a part of the declaration but Baelish states that he's corrupt. The Belmor's sigil are *six bells on a purple field* . Ther're three bells in a line, below two and then one.
Bells are commonly used in the churche and are symbol of wisdom and *god's voice* on earth. Wisdom -> Citadel?
God -> the Faith?
The number six stands for *perfection* (because the numbers it can be divided through -> 1,2,3 (reminder, the bells are split up in groups of 1,2,3) - add up to the number itself) while the number 666 is a symbol of the *devil* . Well, the Faith seems entirely made to hide the true religion of the Andals and gain control over the people in Westeros. Their true god is probably the great other. The "devil". Also, it sometimes stands for *health and healing* , another nod to the citadel.
I am aware that that purple is the eye colour of the old Valyria and the amethyst empress.
Purple is a mix of red and blue which, now that I think of it, kind of sounds like Ice and Fire. (thoughts?)
It's associated with nobility, luxury, power, devotion and ambition but also with *the sacred* and the *third eye* .
It is said that a little purple will enhance the creativity and too much will cause moodiness.
Now, that's where I draw the distinction between "Valyrian purple" and "Belmore purple" so it's not the same.
So, we conclude:
-> religious but for the great other (bells, six, purple (->third eye))
-> supports the Citadel (bells, six)
-> devoted (purple)
At least that's my solution.
Now, we don't know who raised Elbert but I find it doubtful that he and Jon Arryn shared a close relationship for two reasons:
-> Robert and Ned were Jon's wards so they'd have been in contact with Elbert if Jon had raised him. But Ned never thinks of him, iirc.
-> Jon called his banners in defense of Ned and Robert and not because the Mad King killed Elbert, there isn't a word lost about him.
That leads me to believe that Elbert was *raised* by the Belmores. More specifically: *by the Faith* because the Belmores were probably *devoted* (coming from the colour purple and the bells in their sigil) to the Faith and Elbert was raised as the Faith pleased.
Well, for some *weird* reason Jon Arryn didn't manage to get *children* , something that also happened to Maegor.
So at that time, the son of Ronnel, Elbert, probably obidient to the Faith, was heir to the Vale.
Exactly that might be one of the reasons - why *King Aerys killed him* . Varys would have known all of that and informed him that the Faith wanted an even stronger connection to the Vale so when the time was "convenient" the Mad King executed him.
Now, that *plan of the faith failed* and I won't get into Harry the Heir's backstory but there're two interesting details concerning him that I want to point out.
-> his mother's sister are either a) dead, b) unable to get childs or c) *members of the faith*
-> his mother "perished" after naming him, as did Ronnel around the birth of Elbert
So I'm not certain wether Harry is influenced by the churche but I am pretty certain that the Faith is trying to manipulate the Vale heavily even though it's a kingdom of the Andals. Why?
What do you think? Love your videos, you're the greatest channel for a Song of Ice and Fire! Also, this series is so interesting, keep it up!
Your videos always leave me yearning for more, but in the best way possible.
So for clarification ... Are you trying to say the Faith of the Seven believe that their god is the same God of Many Faces of the House of Black and White? I know the Faceless Men themselves lay claim to the Stranger from the Seven as well as all the other gods of men. BUT if it is as you said in previous videos the Andals truly left Westeros/Bravos because of their religious fanaticism and NOT fear of the Valyrians- I thought you were going to be arguing that the Seven were a repackaging of the same religion as the human sacrificing/slaving Ghiscari who you argued bore similarity to the Blood Stone Emperor and then all the similarities to the Lion of the Night and other imagery similar to the Others, the wall over there etc. etc.?
And so why then would they need to reinvent their religion if the everyone already in Westeros was already worshiping the Weirwoods in Westeros? Everyone meaning i.e. Children of the Forest and the First Men. I thought Maestor Luwin going to the Weirwood tree had more to do with him being influenced by living his life in the North and of the Old Gods, than because of any teaching of from the Faith of the Seven. I don't disagree the Seven and the High Septon being associated the blood-sacrifice I just don't believe they're doing it to the Weirdwood. There's no weirwood in the square or Sept of Balor, or any other sept, from the Faithful to be bringing all those bodies too. Anywhere else the Andals took over there seems to be the eradication of Weirwoods. I don't deny that I think the Andals believed the Weirwoods have power but I think they view them as threat, and if the Weirwoods can get power from sacrifices so can the Faith of the Seven and whoever they really stand for.
I agree with you here. If the 7 = The Many Faced God = Death = Weirwoods, why did the Andals (who brought the 7 pointed star) chop down the Weirwoods and wage war on the Children when they arrived in Westeros?
These videos give some nice details but what you mentioned came to my mind instantly. It is weird that they didn't notice that Andals cut off as many weirwoods as they could and did a genocide to the children of the forest.
I think these three comments should be posted again on this video, as they're *really* good points and deserve some clarification.
@ The guys running this channel have simply explained away these valid objections by saying that "the history of the maesters cannot be trusted". That's all well and good until you realize that we come across very little weirwoods in the South. Those that are there are only in the godswood of certain Southern castles.
We know that the First Men adopted the Old Gods at least after the Pact with the Children. So why would the Andals need to invent a false religion that secretly worships death and weirwoods, when the First Men were already doing that long before they set their foot in Westeros? All of this is awfully convoluted.
@ Another problem I have with this channel's speculations and line of thinking is that they believe the Valyrians were the "good guys" in general. When people point out Valyrian slavery, they just wave it off by saying, "Oh they were better slavers than the Ghiscari, and they only adopted slavery after annihilating Old Ghis. Ergo, the Ghiscari corrupted the good guy Valyrians."
Fuckin' NO! There are multiple sources independent of the Citadel that strongly suggest that the Valyrians were worse: the Ghiscari themselves (horrible as they are), the Faceless Men, the people of Braavos (which includes followers of religions other than that of the Many-Faced God, such as the Moonsingers and all other faiths tolerated in Braavos), and last but not the least: the absolute desolation that are the Rhoynish cities.
Multiple civilizations and groups of people all pointing to the cruelty and slavemongering of the Valyrians, and these guys believe that the Valyrians represented "light, warmth and life" while their adversaries were somehow on the side of "darkness and death and the Others". The mental gymnastics is unbelievable.
I even missed the first period of the Capitols at Stars game JUST to watch this video.
What I love about you two, is that even when I do not buy into a theory, I'm still entertained and given new things to chew on.
Wait if the weir woods are an aspect of the Stranger then why would it be necessary for the andals to invent the the Faith of the Seven in the first. The first men already worshipped death if you're theory is correct. And if the weir woods are an aspect of the stranger then why did the andals chop down the trees when arriving in westeros? Curious to know what you guys think on it
Alan L. I really need this question to be answered.
As stated by Littlefinger “Always keep your foes confused. If they are never certain who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next. Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you. Remember that, Sansa, when you come to play the game.”
The children of the forest and the first men who worship the old gods believe there souls will go into the trees, therefore they will live forever. This is why the faceless men don't see the old gods as one of the aspects of he of many faces, if the faith of the seven is also a death religion, the undeathness of the weirwood-net would be at odds with everything they believe.
Love the theories you guys come up with. And the way you post evidence to support them
if the Andals/Seven worship death and Weirwoods represent a part of this death worship,,, why did the Andals chop down so many Weirwoods ???
did they? the Arryns desperately tried to get a weirwood to grow in their castle and have a weirwood throne and in spite of what Catelyn thinks in her first POV chapter, there seems to be weirwoods in the godswoods of most castles south of the Neck
thank you !!!
The Order of the Green Hand i was thinking about the same. I love your videos but sometimes my knowledge isn't enough to understand everything. If there were the weirwoods already, why create a new faith instead of keeping the "old gods"?
Ugh she's always such fail.
I wondered this also, but was it the andals who were chopping them down or the first men? Seems like the 1st men were chopping them down and warring with the children of the Forrest?
DAMN CLEVER! Really! Well done and well researched and well thought!! This is one of your most insightful videos yet! I'm saving a copy of this one! Bravo! And thank you both for finding time to keep up with these despite your person lives getting busier, it is noticed and appreciated =)
Hey Mr and Mrs Greenhand, go check out "The Seven Tablets of Creation," from ancient Sumer. Especially the passages about Slaying the Dragon. Might shed some light on where George is going with all this.
will do
The Order of the Green Hand I have a few more ideas on it if you like the reading. If not totally fine too. Btw, I really love and appreciate the videos. Thank you both and Merry Christmas :)
Thank you for putting in all that work to make these videos so we can just sit back, watch and enjoy them. Keep it up guys.
Fascinating about Lewin leaving himself for the Old Gods, though being a Southern follower of the Seven beforehand! Is it because he wants to still know what's going on in the realm/world after death, making it clear that he believes the old tales far more than he claimed he did (a.k.a., not one iota) to Bran?
A simpler and easier explanation is that since he's served the Starks for decades, he's opened up/grown fond of Northern culture. It's like Lewin has adopted the Northern beliefs deep inside his heart, though he might not have admitted it to others (or even to himself). When he realized he was dying, he finally realized that he would prefer to die under the ultimate symbol of the North: the weirwood, which had also morphed into the ultimate symbol of his own life (which he spent in service of the North).
That is much more sensible than "the 7 are a secret weirwood death cult" hypothesis. Why bother creating a convoluted and intolerant religion that secretly worships death and weirwoods when the First Men were already doing that openly for thousands of years?
@@KhukuriGod Yeah, I'd have to agree with you there. Good points
@@made-line7627 Thanks. I'd also like to say that this channel is not entirely wrong in their assessment of maesters and Lewin. It is quite clear by their biased and nonsensical history writing that the Andals, the Faith, and the Citadel are indeed "lying pieces of shit". So it is quite possible that Lewin knew, or eventually came to know, about the power of the weirwoods and so he went there so that he could live on inside the weirwood net after his death.
However, some of the theories of this channel are so needlessly and obnoxiously complex and convoluted that I'm beginning to find the simpler, more mundane explanations far more appealing.
But what would actually mean that Swords have on banner a crystal sword of the White Walkers? What would be connection between Andals (Swords/Faith of the 7) and White Walkers?
The note of Cersei observing "men whose teeth had been filed into points" makes me think of Biter, and how George said Rorge found Biter as an orphan and raised him feral to fight in illegal bear and dog fighting pits in Flea Bottom. That person might have been another one of those feral raised fighters.
Hmm, your videos are making me increasingly more bewildered by the fact that the Hound now resides on Quiet Isle and so if he's supposed to be on a redemption arc while the faith is really this sadistic and actually tied to a death cult, what does that mean for him then? Will he discover that, and fight them maybe? Or will he stay on their side, thus making him part of the problem in the end? I haven't read the last book published yet, and thinking about getting all of the books on audible to listen to again faster than I would read them.
I definitely believe the HoB&W is tied to the COTF though and the old gods and that they're doing blood sacrifices in their deepest chambers to some weirwood trees or something after hearing that on either your or Ideas of Ice and Fire's channel, can't remember now w/o looking back.
just finished ADWD so now I can finally watch all of your videos
You guys work hard on these videos, it really shows. What inspires you crazy people to do it for free? It's madness!
we ask ourselves that all the time
Yet another well researched and thoughtful video, thank you! I do have a question, and perhaps you'll address this in a later video about the POS Andals: The history we're presented says the Andals cut and burned weirwoods when they arrived in Westeros because they thought they were sacred to the First Men, which is why not many are found south of The Neck. I always thought this was a bit suspect, as we also know that prior to 'The Pact' the First Men, while warring with the children, would get rid of weirwood trees, and (while I do not consider the show a valid source of canon) the show does say the Children created the Others in response to being killed off and their sacred trees being destroyed, but the Others first appeared before the Andals arrived in Westeros. So it seems plausible that the Andals didn't really need to destroy any weirwoods since the First Men would have largely done the job for them (south of The Neck at least), is this another lie in their history or is there more to this that I'm not catching?
Cheers and thanks for the great content.
So Kings Landing is now filled with the dead and dying !!! I was wondering how GRRM was planning to do a lot of damage in westeros in just 2 books when the Others are still north of the wall by the end of ADWD !!!
Possibly three because he claims he might make more after Song of Spring
He said that he will finish when and where he needs to. We might have an 8th book if he lives long enough. Guy's in his mid 70s and at that age, you WILL recieve the gift of death sooner or later. Then some Great Other Evil inside his mind convinced him to write about Dunk and Egg and a history on the reign of House Targaryen before finishing the main books
Do you think its possible that eurons ship is manned by devotees of the seven? Its the first thing that came to mind when talking about silent sisters
yes,more on that later
I love how George borrows from everyone,even the Benedictines.
"Ora et labora" work and pray.
this series seems to be to be amongst the best researched literature around
So is euron the antichirst of game of thrones
We're The Order of Green Hand here to bring you some clarity on A Song of Ice and Fire.
Late again 😢😭
we forgive you Cassio
I love this set of "Lying Andals" videos. They're almost as good as your N+A=J videos, but those videos are a lot more elaborate and intriguing.
Happy Holidays, thx for the video
Great series, very interesting, especially because you delve into parts of the background story that haven't really been explored that much so far. Have you considered the Faith of the Seven in terms of the Bloodstone Emperor's Church of Starry Wisdom? I've always felt that the Faith may have developed from this ancient religion, perhaps even going underground for centuries/millennia, before undergoing a reformation and revival to reemerge as the Andal Faith in Westeros. You mention the crystal sword that likens the swords of the Others. This brings to mind the double-sided ax, once also an Andal symbol, and the correlating double-sided ax placed in the midst of the slaughtered Wildlings in the very first prologue chapter of the books. I see your point regarding the weirwoods being somehow involved in the aspect of death, but I do not think that this was originally the case. In a nutshell, I believe the weirwoods are under a curse brought about by the misdeeds of the children of the forest. The original Winged Knight could have been a dragonrider and tearless Alyssa Arryn may well have been a person of dragon blood herself - thinking of the theme of weeping here - dragon people like Daenerys do not weep. Another interesting point which might be of significance to your investigation regards the naming of constellations - the Smith (aspect of the Seven) is known to the freefolk as the Thief. What do you make of that? Looking forward to your next installment and keep up the good work!
All I can say at the moment is I think you’re really going to like the video we’re recording as we speak
I’m doing my New Year resolution and re listening to all of your videos! This one is one of my favorite! Thanks Greenhand!
I think the faith is based on the church of starry wisdom. They're worshipping Nyarlathotep, the crawling chaos, the faceless god, the haunter in the dark.
Cthulhu fhtagn....
But isn't Nyarlathotep the soccer emperor in Yiti
Ok, so to be clear, you guys think the firstmen worshiped the tree & water spirits i.e. nature, and were responsible for cutting down all the weirwoods until the pact? Is that accurate?
...and if so, how/when/why did the Northmen forget about the past and get tricked into worshiping the many faced god (in this hypothesis)?
You may have already covered this, i haven't seen all your material, but you guys definitely got me thinking, nice job guys!
Thank you for all the theories you have done. You‘ve been enlighting me since I found your channel and I look forward to each and every single video you put up. Please keep on going with great content
thank you Masaki
This makes my day!
Okay! Have you guys ever considered that the Faith probably (most definitely) orchestrated Robert’s Rebellion? According to all accounts, Rhaegar was a kind, noble, and valiant man who would’ve probably been one of Westeros’ greatest kings had he lived long enough to sit the throne. Literally the only person in all the books who has anything ill to say about Rhaegar is Robert. Robert calls Rhaegar a monster for taking Lyanna, but I think it was hammered into his head by the Faith. Even Ned Stark, who was probably closest to Lyanna had nothing bad to say about Rhaegar and went so far as to actively defend Daenerys and her unborn child
Have missed you guys! Thanks for the video & happy holidays.
thanks...same to you
I like it, the Silent Sisters I feel like are going to come into the story a little more in the future. Its like Euron Greyjoy's mutes. Maybe they are all hive mind or being controlled by something.
Preston and Greenhand drop on the same day how auspicious!!!!
I really like this series you guys are doing. I like how you break down everything and explain it in detail. When I read through the books the first time I barely noticed any of these things...like the pile of bones, I didn't think much of it....until now....where did they get all those bones!? Now you guys have me wondering about so many more things! Can't wait for the next video!
thanks so much
Automatic like before watching! I know it will be a quality video and I love how skeptical you guys are!!
Congrats for another great video. I think you guys are spot on about pretty much everything. I have a question though. If the Andals masqueraded their religion to sell it to the inhabitants of Westeros, how did they sell the lie to their own people as well? I mean it wasn't just the maesters, the septons and their kings, their numbers included a lot of commoners as well.
I love this channel and love watching your videos every week! I've only ever Patreoned for one other person but I am seriously considering joining up with yall.
thank you so much
No, thanks for making such awesome videos I can sink my time into! Haha!
An "orphan" can mean just one parent has died. (Often, we use that term when both have died though.) I agree with your conclusion that the Faith of the Seven is evil and could potentially just kill the mothers, but just thought I'd throw that out there.
You guys always give me so much to think about and so many rabbit wholes to explore.... Great job as always. Wishing you both a very special and safe holiday season. Love and hugs 💖💖💖🦏🦏🦏🐘🐘🐘
The Quiet Isle sounds like a strange place where women give birth, like it's some out-of-place maternity hospital. I don't know if the mothers are "being killed" because death from childbirth is common in Westeros. Great video and cool theories.
it just seems to me that the fact that it says the orphans are taken in by the faith is really creepy because it seems as though they are either killing the mothers or stealing their babies from them
Yes it's really weird.
If the old gods of the weirwood trees and the stranger of the seven are the same: why get the first men who had already converted to the old gods of the weirwood to convert to the same religion under a different name? Theres no point and it doesn't make sense.
Maybe the Many Faced God like Religious War blood shed as a sacrifice to Itself.
At the end of your video, I was wondering whom the High Sparrow was refering to when he talks about demon worshipers. Could it be to the Northmen, because many "state" relgions tend to claim gods from other creeds to be demons if their worshipping stays strong, or the North is the only part of the Seven Kingdoms that the Faith doesn't control (even if they have planted maesters there).
Also the quote of Meribald made me think that the three masculine figures of the Seven are linked to the three orders of the feudal society. And what you said about the Smith made me immediately think about the Faceless Men.
Well, I must say that this serie makes me think a lot, a good point I must say.
from a follower of the faith point of view, the religion of the Lord of Light (don't remember the name) can be seen as demon worshippers, especially considering how they love to tear down the the seven's idols and burn people loyal to the faith, not saying they are evil, I actually like the Lord of Light relegion better than any other religion in ASOIAF, at least they seem to be the only ones fighting against the true evil, the Great Other
Quite true. Actually to zealots such as the High Sparrow every other faith could be considered demons' worshiping may it be the cult of R'hllor, of the Northern gods or of the Drowned God. If they can't hold the minds of these people, they would eventually label them as demon's worshipers.
YAY! So happy for another video from you guys! Keep dropping knowledge on them! 💚✋
Thank you m'lady
If you made like an hour long video that would be total epic. Ever read The long Earth series by Terry pratchett and Stephen Baxter? Defo reccomend them. :) Hope you both have an amazing christmas.
who told catelyn the seven are one? if they were supposed to be keeping that secret for centuries someone spilled the beans
her septon when she was young I believe
But Catelyn isn't a woman from small folk but the eldest child of an Andal Lord, so her septon would teach her well.
Is the guy with weeping sores the same one at the faceless man metting?
it certainly doesn't bode well that the most devout who are in KL look like a bunch of Rorge and Biter clones
new video? im in there like swim wear
That stained glass of the seven is very helpful.
one thing to point out the romans were religilousy tolerant intill the christians (and a handful of other religions that were not so succeful) and since valyria is atleast partly based off rome it might be that the faith of the seven was seen for the threat it was to their rule and thus whipped out
THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER
2:39 the Warrior looks a like Jaime with his golden armor. I wonder if that was done on purpose on George's account, or Jaime styled himself after the Warrior as a way to escape the scorn of being labeled Kingslayer.
That and did you notice that the Smith has a horned helmet (i.e. Gendry), the maiden has a canine (possibly a fox) as well as flower petals which reminiscent of house Florent's sigil as well as a bird close to a half-moon (i.e. the Arryn sigil) as well as a blue(?) flower in her hair which is reminiscent of Lyanna Stark.
Edit:
Maybe we are supposed to see characters in the aspects (making them relatable for common folk). Well, this goes for everyone except the Stranger.
Ran out of my data but the constant buffering was worth it!
I hate buffering
I have to admit, it is VERY like GRRM to have a religion conceal pure evil, although there never exists pure evil in GRRM's worlds.
he did say the Faith was inspired by the medieval Catholic Church but it has a fantasy twist
The best villains often think they're the heroes.
If you think the Catholic church was pure evil, you are just ignorant.
I GRRM is kind of naiv when it comes to religion as only evil. Mankind is a People Who have tried to kill each other right from the start of our exsistens. And destroying religion is not going to chance that.
Thank the gods you're here GreenHand; finally some stern story-craft analysis amidst the sea of "RLJ prophecy - why Arya will end up riding the Night King in the last scene" tripe . Anything but "S3as0n 8 Ep1s0d3 L3@kz - C0NF1RM3D!!!1!1!!1!" Seriously, If I could slap some channels, I would. Very happy that I can help support you guys; every video is totally worth it.
thank you ser
PBR Streetgang Is JaMiE LaNiStEr A ViLiAn?
+jambi Jambii (Bane voice) - But of c0urs3! Have you not read the leaked script for S08E02 #confirmed #wtf #ofcourse #shiftstick # EverythingIsAwesome #GoneSexual #NevermindTheBooks #MustPublishContentEveryday #GOTIsALLIHave #TradeGossip #LikeFishwives
hi greenhands. I've really been enjoying your series collections. Incredible work! I posted my original theory last year "7 gods are 7 characters " shared with you and 2 other youtube sites. There's no mention of the 7 in Essos because they may have been 7 actual people who were pivotal in defeating the whitewalkers thousands of years ago. History is very unreliable in this story and may be repeating itself. I'm convinced that the 7 are 7 actual characters. Each has the individual qualities of one aspect of the 7, as follows below.
1. The father/Jaime, father of Cersei children, repeated remarks about justice, judgment
2.The mother/Dany, Mhysa, mother of dragons ect
3.The maiden /Brienne, innocence, virginity
4.The crone/Melisandre, Ancient, lights the way, "lord of light show us the way"
5. The warrior /Jorah, champion of the fighting pits, knighted in the name of the warrior by king Robert.
6.the smith/Gendry, will forge weapons and possibly valaryian steel with samwells help.
7. The stranger /Arya, a girl is no one, a stranger, assassin, death, and the unknown. Each character has a role to play in defeating the whitewalkers, as did their legendary counterparts. Thoughts welcomed. Love QOT.🌹
I am not sure I get the difference between the old, faceless Gods of the North and the Great Other, the Weirwood God of Death, whose minions are the CoTF. Could you guys explain your theory? Thank you in advance!
The First Men worship nature and fertility gods in front of weirwoods. Not the weirwoods themselves
Ok, I get it! Then why does Lyanna (if she is the KOLT) bear the weirwood sigil on her shield or Val has a weirwood brooch (if I remember correctly)? They are worshipers of the Stranger/Death God or do they just honour the northern Gods?
@The Order Of The Green Hand your videos are always so insightful and present so many ways various aspects of the stories can be taken. Thank you for doing the footwork/research to be able to present such in-depth videos. I appreciate them very much especially lately.
Hey guys. I am conviced you guys are correct. Though I doubt George would ever confirm it, but the clues are all there and I love it, it is very like him to hide it there for us. Yet I would love to see it reveal on the books! This was perfect.
thanks Ana
Anyone feel bad for magor. Its like you save your family and then they want you dead. He also never had a family and had nobody is trust. Sad isnt it
ivanbluecool He had his mother.
_B1oodlust_ 117 she died when he needed her most. Then he had all his family who were not directly related to him except for aegon all want him dead
ivanbluecool then karma repaid them back with Jae kids all dying
A thing to consider: the very basis of the Faith of the Seven -- 7 'aspects' of one god -- is reminiscent of the Many-Faced god and the Faceless Men.
For a hypothetical comparison, if one were to create a cult around a "Many Faced god," the Faith of the Seven could easily be an 'outer mystery' that anyone would be allowed to learn about just by showing up, whereas the Many-Faced god sh*t would be the stuff only a small circle of people would ever know.
Not ready to say I fully buy into these videos, but they aren't without merit. I really could see GRRM coming up with these kinds of ideas. Hopefully we'll get to see the rest of the books, and we can find out once and for all.
Faith of the Seven = Many-faced god + seven classical virtues.......
Seven Deadly Sins
That too........
Okay I haven't finished the books yet so pardon my confusion. But, does this mean that both the OLD Gods and the new are basically all tied to death? Also, I wonder...is this why the Starks keep their dead in the crypts the way they do? So they can't be brought back and used by the great other?
I always thought the author was just mocking Christians :D
great video 👍
This series has been very illuminating. The faith of tee seven tended to stay in my peripheral since on the surface it seemed so blah
Another great video, as always. Thank you for this in-depth and so pertinent analysis.
Great video 👍
Exelent job...
Let me just say this one point i don't think all the septons and septas know what they really worship. I believe even some of them are blind to the evil they love and if shown the truth they would disown this 7 in one god
it seems as though the higher-ups/shot callers are the ones who know what is really going on
Another fantastic Video! Always looking forward to seeing another new video from you guys there always well thought out, interesting and most of all compelling.
We do have a single instance of the faith of the seven in essos, namely in braavos. In a world of ice and fire grrm tells us (through a maester) that there were andals along the first slaves that escaped to braavos who founded a Sept there, which in current times is mostly attended by westerosi merchants, but which does have native septons and septas
I have been wondering why Maester Lewin would go to the gods wood to die thanks for covering it and touching on the Brienne chapters with Nimble Dick I they seemed so perilous for Brienne.
Maester Luwin dragging himself to the weirwood to die drove us nuts for like a year
A simpler and easier explanation is that since he's served the Starks for decades, he's opened up/grown fond of Northern culture. It's like Lewin has adopted the Northern beliefs deep inside his heart, though he might not have admitted it to others (or even to himself). When he realized he was dying, he finally realized that he would prefer to die under the ultimate symbol of the North: the weirwood, which had also morphed into the ultimate symbol of his own life (which he spent in service of the North).
That is much more sensible than "the 7 are a secret weirwood death cult" hypothesis. Why bother creating a convoluted and intolerant religion that secretly worships death and weirwoods when the First Men were already doing that openly for thousands of years?
@@KhukuriGod the seven have nothing to do with the weirwoods they are connected to the old gods. The weirwoods feed off blood and Lewin went there to die because he knew his consciousness would join with the weirwood net.
@@mozart7820 I agree with basically everything you say, except maybe for the Lewin really knowing the wierwood net part. Anyway, I'll summarize my thoughts:
1. *the seven have nothing to do with the weirwoods* I know. But that's not what this channel says. I was objecting to the weirwood-seven connection these guys were trying to make, which if you think about for only a second, is needlessly convoluted.
2. *they are connected to the old gods.* Indeed they are. Yet these guys say that the "old gods" of the North are actually the original nature gods of the First Men, and that the Children's only major contribution to the Northern creed was the worship of weirwoods. Yet we know that the Children are actually known as "Singers" who "sing the song of the earth", which means they are nature worshippers as well. It's just that their nature worship centers around bloodthirsty trees. So that's a big problem for their "Nature Worship = First Men; Weirwood Death Cult = Children" hypothesis.
3. *The weirwoods feed off blood and Lewin went there to die because he knew his consciousness would join with the weirwood net.* Agreed with the bloodlust of the weirwoods. Not entirely convinced Lewin had esoteric knowledge of the actual workings of the weirwood net, though. However, it is highly plausible that Lewin, like all seasoned maesters, did know more about the reality of magic and the Children than they were letting on. I'm simply saying Lewin's dying actions can also be easily explained by his emotional attachment to House Stark and the North. Occam's Razor.
@@KhukuriGod cool I agree although I think Lewin was in the know about weirwoods and had no loyalty to the North, imo he was only there for Catelyn.
Very detailed video, good stuff!
The fact that they're ready to name an aspect of God based on what they honor, such as the warrior or the smith, shows me that it's not a serious faith. With Christianity, it's the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and that's because the Father showed Himself and sent the Son, and the Son and the Father sent the Spirit, and that's why there's only the Three, because only the Three showed up to humanity. It's consistent. We don't add Persons to God just because we feel that we need to honor something. We have Three because God only showed up as Three Persons. Simple and consistent.
Even if people insult us because the Son is seen as weak by nonbelievers, we don't care, because He is one with the Father, whose power is infinite. The Father is in the Son, and the Son, in the Father. So the Son can annihilate anyone who opposes Him, but He chooses to love them instead. We don't care about familiarity, or what people's opinions are, only what our texts and histories tell us as to how God showed Himself. Caring about others' opinions too much can destroy the integrity of a philosophy or religion. Jesus sure as hell didn't care about what others thought, and neither did Aristotle. That's why their beliefs are strong, not pliable and weak.
HolyknightVader999 being capable of reevaluating and scrutinizing your beliefs is important. It allowed people to shift their paradigm like not believing the sun revolves around the earth anymore. The alternative can lead to fanaticism, and in the long run fanaticism leads to the kind of behavior the worshippers of the seven have. Mob mentality, severe closed-mindedness, etc.
And that's the thing. The Vatican can accept that they fucked up and realize that the Earth isn't the center of the universe. The Faith of the Seven can't.
And that's the problem. The faith should be the only reason for the religion, otherwise, it's a tool of something or someone else.
OMG you guys I am loving this series. And I'm loving the indignation at ALL THE LIES. And of course, I'm excited about the return of The Worldwide Weirwood Web in this vid! While getting into this did you give any thought to the theory that the mysteriously-and-vigorously-catapulted-to-power High Sparrow is someone else in disguise (Howland Reed a popular if slightly perplexing suspect)?
there was a time where his mudd colored eyes made us think that he could be the father of the moss eyed greenseer that travels with Bran, but gave up on it pretty quickly when we realized he was the same guy Brienne met on the road...I see him as a modern Septon Moon except smarter and more dangerous
+The Order of the Green Hand Sounds about right as usual! Also, just wanted to wish you Green Handers a happy holiday season and the very best in the new year. Thanks for all your hard work to make 2017 a year full of insight, interesting discussions, humor, and fun!!!
While i like the theory i do have a few questions regarding them
1. If the andals where slavers and founded their religion in braavos then why is braavos the only free city without slavery?
2. The andals and children fought against one another because of religion why do that if they follow the same god?
3. Why where the only nights watchmen that where killed by others until now followers of the seven but not even one old godworshipper?
Maegor was a bad ass mofo, but I don't think he was any more cruel a ruler than, say, Tywin Lannister?
the time he lived in and the obstacles he needed to overcome made it easy to brand him as cruel but we think he was what he needed to be