Even if I don't agree with every singly point in every single one of you guys' videos, everything you present is plausible, thought through and thought provoking. Whilst I think that the Dornish may not be as barbarous as the Reach-dwelling-Maester-written World of Ice and Fire presents, they certainly have a darker side that the fanbase just seems to ignore, and this video brings that into the light. Keep up the great work
@agnat86 yes i have noticed for some reason they choose to really promote the targaryen-favorable perspective Even though there would be a higher chance of that sort of stuff being deluded by imperial propaganda by the point the books are being written
Damn Dorne you scary! Just goes to show you how the dornish were wasted in the show. Seems like you barely get a hint of this stuff from the show before they killed off everyone.
In defense of the show, to have made all this clear on TV would have required *significant* time spent in Dorne, probably over several seasons, and there was no PoV character to do that. And there's no real way to make the history of the Dornish people clear on the show, when that history is so important to the current events. IMO, were it not for Oberyn's character -- the only real good thing about Dorne to make it into the show -- the show would have been better to have cut out Dorne altogether, or to at least have never spent any real time there.
Ryeguy123a totally agree, it wouldn’t have been doable for the show to go this in depth with the dornish, I just feel bad that the show couldn’t touch on this kind of depth due to the time constraints. Just goes to show the ability of the books to go deeper than the show can. At least we got Oberyn
Great video as always. It is interesting to note that the dornish are proud of their brutal hit and run tactics and seem to care little for their small folk. Doran is cut from the same cloth as the yellow toad. They both view their people as pieces on a gameboard. In chess, pawns are often used as sacrificial pieces to force the opposition into a compromising position. Seems that is what dorne did as well. They sacrafice their pawns for better plays and remove their opponents pawns so that they cannot be used in the same way. Brutally effective tactics.
Anthony Rose As a Chess player I agree, but to a point. In Chess, ANY piece (except the King) can be used as a sacrifice. I would also argue that while the King is the most important piece in Chess and the Queen is the second most important (and most versatile) piece, Pawns are actually the third most important piece, because they can "promote" to other pieces upon reaching the last rank of the board.
Do you not think Doran being a mastermind could just be a red herring? I feel like the Dornish plot will end with tragic inadequacy and unfulfilled ambitions
That would be like one of the most fucked up rug pulls George could have in store, I think it's either that or Rhoynish Restoration/Independency like Preston Jacobs says.
I can't even watch other people's Game of Thrones contents anymore after watching what you put out it's so well thought-out and researched. Even the ones I don't agree with I can see how you ended up there and it make sense. Regardless of whether or not it's right. I only wish I had stumbled on it years later so I wouldn't have to wait on a week-by-week basis to watch your new videos.
I think you're being a bit hard on the Martells. The Dornish small folk seem to be as warlike as their rulers. In one of Arianne's chapters she can hear the people in the outer city clamouring for revenge for Oberyn's death and she feels like Sunspear is simmering with pent up fury. Obviously sending a mentally disabled person out to die is execrable but some of their other tactics are understandable like boys and women defending a castle I think was more as a ruse than a sacrifice: making Aegon think the real force was in the castle rather than fleeing or hiding. They probably counted on his known merciful nature and knew he wouldn't kill the defenders once he realised he'd been tricked. Torture seems to be fairly common across the seven kingdoms to be fair!
George said there is a greater sense of nationalism in Dorne than the other six kingdoms, which leads me to believe it has something to do with their largely Rhoynish heritage...we didn't have an issue with the tactics they used to resist conquest...it is more about the manner in which they conducted themselves...they abandoned everyone who wouldn't be much help with their war effort and left them to fend for themselves...they tortured and mutilated prisoners of war as if it were a game...when they did hit back, they targeted smallfolk, not military targets...like we said in the video, their use of Welsh-like tactics was the only way they would be capable of resisting, and everyone has the right to resist conquest, but we stopped feeling even remotely bad for them when they revealed themselves to be a land filled with Ramsay Boltons, who take great pleasure in lopping body parts off of their foes like it's a game
Guerrilla tactics were invented by the Spanish when the Fat ass of Napoleon tricked the governor of the nation and let the French troops cross the peninsula "to war against Portugal". Defenseless, the inhabitants were forced to survive anyhow against these rapist and pillagers. And our terrain was perfect to ambush and bleed them. There is even a story that the French slew a village south of the peninsula and the survivors faked friendship towards them and invited the soldiers to a feast... They were all poisoned. So, some Dornish parts are based on Spanish history. However, we ain't like Dornish people. Well, one good clue is that none of the three Dornish skin types described in the books match our fenotypes, in general.
Skwisgaar Skwigelf grrm said that among others, the dornish were based on the moors invading tge spanish peninsula so that might explain the phenotype, the link to the spanish...
@@skwisgaarskwigelf331 I always thought that Dorne is there to represent Iberia during the reconquista period, with their mixture of races, is the closest real world equivalent there is to it.
Torrhen Stark is one of my favorites. Cuz it takes a real man to forsake his pride and his honor and acccept that he's been beaten. so you can almost say that no one in the current story is a real man no one, except maybe Sam but Sam's too squishy so you know what he doesn't count he's more than a man
Secret entrances to caves That'd be a good place to get clean water, maybe even grow low-light crops as the dark damp allows for things to decompose and make dirt. Also, it would make sense that the common folk wouldn't know about these caves; to keep the secret from the rest of the world, only the Lords and prominent families would be privy to the information.
You pointed out in the beginning that Meria Martell refuses to bow and is willing to let her people die instead. However, isn't it fair to say that the people of Dorne are themselves unwilling to bow and would rather die? When Dorne is conquered by Daeron I, the smallfolk continue to fight back and manage to liberate Dorne from Daeron without the help of the lords of Dorne. Similarly, when Aegon tries to create a rift between the Dornishmen by saying that the Martells have found their way to safety by buying a weapon that can kill dragons, the Dornish still refuse to give up their allegiance to the Martells. It seems to me that it is not just the princes/princesses of Dorne who wanted the Targaryens to stay away from Dorne but the smallfolk and other nobility shared this belief.
Ah yes Nymeria's Dornish husband. While High Hermitage seem to be line of Nymeria I think as the years passed they returned pro First Men as well since Ser Gerold Dayne himself doesn't view Rhoynar in a positive line and we know Dayne animosity of Old Town dates back to the time where they had Kings.
would you I mean the man led 250,000 men to their deaths and had 9 wars against the dragonlords one if you have 9 wars against a group of people I think after the 3 time negotiations can be made 2 war is bad for trade
Great video as always. I was wondering what direction you were going to take with your Dorne videos. Of all the seven kingdoms, Dorne has always been my favourite for the very fact that they were the only ones to successfully resist the Targaryen invasion. In the face of Aegon's nigh unstoppable conquest and his awing, weapons of unmatched power, I have always equated Dorne with those few places in our world who have successfully thwarted colonial ambitions in spite of all their mortars and maxims... and dragons. Plus, with Dorne's geography and propensity to strike hard, fast, and "scurry back beneath their rocks" (as well as their overtly Islamic architecture), their resemblance to Afghanistan was always at the forefront of my mind. A nation with a well earned moniker as "The Death of Empires". While this video didn't manage to break my love of Dorne, it has brought to light even more similarities... ones that are not so great. The treatment of those not war capable, especially. The brutal lengths and unsavory tactics they're willing to employ in order to resist foreign invasion. Yea... perhaps they are more similar to Afghanistan then I had original thought or would like to admit. Still, even if Aegon was as benevolent a king as you could ask for, that Dorne never asked is singularly the most important thing. I cannot bring myself to fault them for resisting unwanted subjugation, no matter the lengths they go to do it. One cannot invade another's country, burn their field and homes, kill their people, and then balk at the brutality with which they are resisted. Torture is a horrendous and unjustifiable thing, but it wouldn't have happened had you checked your ambitions and stayed home.
The art, editing and content are second to none! Especially interesting and often overlooked, is the aspect of water magic, glad you brought that aspect into the mix. Magics of Ice, Fire, blood have been lightly covered by others. I think GRRM is cautiously revealing that multiple natural forces are forms of magic. "cold WINDS are rising", "I am the storm (Air/Clouds) ", The white walkers bring the storm, ( ICE/SNOW) the weirwoods,(TREES/FOREST) children of the forest, and patches definitely had some type of encounter with WATER magic/gods. Did the Dornish potentially use some type of EARTH/SAND magic to conceal their armies? Thanks so much for your wonderful work! Love QOT.🌹 😊
every day that i log into youtube i hope to see a new vid from you guys. so when that happens i get pretty excited. great stuff as always. thank you for doing this!
Surely the dornish aren't all bad right? Isn't the truth somewhere in the middle? Will you guys tackle dornish law and customs in a later video by chance, it would be interesting to see a deeper analysis on the culture presented.
All hail His King and Queen Greenhand. First of Their Name, Rulers of the Andals and the First Men, ,Speaker of Truths, Breaker of Theories, and Protectors of N+A=J
I'm not saying there aren't tunnels under Dorne, because it seems like there are tunnels everywhere in Westeros. However deserts are real easy to disappear in, even from search parties with helicopters. Canyon Lands in Utah is an example of a desert that was made for hiding in, you could hide an army there and they that would be a lot more comfortable in the slots than anyone flying above looking for them. Chances are they spent the days under cover and only move at night like the fremen of Dune.
the issue is they might be able to hide for a day or two, but armies need to stay close to water, which should make it easy to find them, but they never found them
Well I think if as you said later in the video that they were hiding in caves near their castles and just waiting, that is the most likely scenario by far. However I don't think you can under estimate the ability of a desert people to thrive in a place that looks unlivable. Just to go back to my example of Canyon Lands, those slots are full of water if you know where to look. If every man had 4 horses they would be boned but if they aren't over loaded on cattle it's just a matter of spreading out and not being active while the sun is out. If you look at all the cave dwellings in the American Southwest almost none of them can be spotted easily from above because defense from the sun was one of the first priorities. They all also had plenty of water because the natives knew where all the springs were hidden. If the Armies of the Dorne were divided up at the company or platoon level they should have no problem living off a land they have been native to for thousands of years. But yeah they were almost definitely hiding in caves right outside their own castles for the most part like you said.
i see the Dorne fighting back the only way they could, and being the only successful ones to resist the Targaryens. While they do seem to have connections with slavery, and do some cruel things, I think their battle strategy was smart.
Hi, great video as always :) In regard to your previous video on Sarella/Shae, I wanted to ask you what do you think of my theory that Alleras might actually be a son of Oberyn Martell, instead of a daughter. I think it makes quite a bit of sense. Oberyn would likely want to send his son to study at the Citadel, just like he himself did, then there is the similarity in physical appearance and Alleras being swarmed by women, which again seems very Oberyn-like. Also there is the "I am son of no lord" line, hinting that his father might be a prince. Of course Alleras and Sarella would be siblings or at least half-siblings. But I actually think they might be twins. Sarella and Alleras are known to be roughly the same age, plus it would explain nicely the mirroring names.
We have considered the possibility. We think Alleras is a Jordayne bastard (the green brigantine suggests it anyways). They are the only house in Dorne that prominently displays green in their banner, their seat, the Tor, is right on the Dornish Sea, etc
I gues that could be true, but what about the "I am no lord's son" line? Jordaynes are lords, so Alleras being a Jordayne bastard would kinda negate that proclamation. I suppose he could be lying , but why? I would think that a young attractive men would rather be bragging about being son of a lord, rather then hiding it. And the way he says the line almost implyes that lords are beneath whoever his father is, if he had just a common parrentage he might have formulated it more like "I am not son of a lord". It would also make a lot of sense to hide his identity if he really was Oberyn´s son, as Oberyn has plenty of enemies and everyone would be immediately suspicious of him, as Oberyn´s children are know to be very dangerous. But idk, I might just be reading too much into that one line.
Any chance that the Jordayne's are some kind of branch of the Dayne's much like the Stark/Karstarks? Maybe a Nymeria/Dayne off shoot given lands near Sunspear
@@arawn1061 Yeah he started *a* sellsword company, but I don't know if it was the Brave Companions. They seem a little too brutish for Oberyn's stylez.
ivanbluecool yeah but the problem with Stannis the maniss is he doesn't know how to compromise and this last part is out of topic but imagine if Jon joined him in taking the kingdoms I would have loved to read about that.
Liz Lee what George said gis biggest flaw is the leach scene. It means stannis not accepting the peach is like rejecting ever feeling relaxed or take a moment to smell the flowers. Yes he needs someone with charisma bur I do see davos as someone who has and will guide Stannis to how to help the people. Stannis learned his mistake instead of listening to high ranks for people who didn't deserve it. He then names davos his hand as davos knows how the poor born act and can help win more to his cause. Stannis wont bend before he breaks like they say. Jon almost took the job before being named lord commander without asking for it with so many tiny miracles to help him. Renly is the one who messed up. If he and Stannis worked together instead of fighting. Renly would be alive and could help make allies for Stannis to balance his hard exterior. If stannis loses in the battle of ice. All the north is doom and the hope for winning back the north will be gone. Hopefully his plan comes together and he beats the boltons
Liz Lee I know he wont win the throne or taste the fruits of his labor. But mel did say she saw Stannis fighting in the winter and his leadership is important. Rob would be fine with Jon taking winterfell if it meant saving it from boltons. Stannis does command respect but lacks any real friendship with anyone like Robert who made friends with enemies. Stannis also believes he will die in the battle or be heard died and send someone who is not loyal with all his money to hire sell swords for his daughter but she may die at the wall like George hinted at. What I think will happen is stannis will die after saving the north as they dont have any loyalty to him and he will hear his wife and daughter are dead at the wall and he alone. He will be fighting to save the realm because its his duty but get no thanks for it and may get betrayed by the North if davos comes back with a died rickon. They haven't told him about bran being alive either so they are keeping him in the dark. I'm sure he has plans with mance as they talked for hours and Jon warned him about the karstark traitors so what I see is the karstark fighting and the boltons allies think them allies will be destroyed while stannis attacks the frey and perhaps the maderly causing more problems down thr road. But if he doesn't act soon. The north will never rise again and as he says about bleeding the people will be too weak for the real danger of the white walkers. He may also get help form the wildlings Calvary which will add to the confusion. Whatever happens. Stannis must destroy the boltons and frey. I think he will die of the cold as he will break before he bends could be a hint to that.
Wow this was surprisingly interesting and very well presented and believable. The more I learn about the Dornish the more intriguing they become. I‘m really *really* interested to see what role the Dornish and House Martell are going to play in the wars and books to come.
I really wonder about Ashara. Her name has been lurking in our story from the very beginning and there definitely seem to have been some feelings and history between her and Ned. I just don't know whether it's all a red herring or whether she will actually influence the current narrative in some way (did she have a child after all?). Ashara is probably the character I'm most interested in finding out more about - along with Quaithe of course (or are they the same person??)
Great as always. Nothing stirs my passions like the Dornish Wars in TWOIAF. The Dornish are fighting for freedom, but often cross the line and you start rooting for revenge and the whole thing circles back again. GRRM at his best: the hideous grayness of everything.
Food for thought i had while watching this.. I feel like George often ties in modern day conflicts and political opinions into his battles/conflicts. For example, Dany's conflict with Merreen and slavers bay has a lot of similarities to the Iraqi war- America/Dany/outside countries seeing a condition in a foreign country has being terrible, rushing in, really without a lot of planning or anything, to change it and re establish government etc and then created power vacuums, and leading room for terrorist organizations to form in the midst of it all. When watching this and reading Dorne against dragons I am really really reminded of the Vietnam war. Rhoyne/Essos/Rhoynish customs being communism, Dorne also being Vietnam, targaryens being america, etc, etc. (I was especially hit over the head with these paraellels when talking about underground tunnels and Guerrilla Warfare tactics that Dorne and Vietnam used, which had a huge impact against the United States/Targaryens, that really should have easily won the war without them) I am no historian and all I know about the war is from school and history class and things I've read online so I could be wrong but the parallels were pretty clear to me. Here is my thought... What is George trying to say about this? I mean he was a pretty big activist against the Vietnam war and for intents and purposes kind of a hippy at the time. Its hard to imagine him writing such a clear parallel to that war when he was a consciousness objector in real life, but speaking in support of the U.S./Targaryens in his writing. You guys always talk about how Maesters white wash history in their favor, and honestly the United States is guilty of that as well, so maybe there is more to the story than what is presented in the history. Or maybe not. What message is he trying to convey? Or maybe just try to make people think a little harder about the subject? I honestly have no idea.
Yes! I realized much of the same you did and started doing research and found so many parallels to vietnam, hiroshima, the cold war, communism, etc...I have a cpl theories on how it's all connected. If I can organize them into a cohesive summary, I'll post here, would love to hear any of your ideas as well. You're the only other person I've seen to bring up these connections. Awesome.
yeah I would love to see those theories! It really hit me over the head when the dornish were described as the lesser power that should have lost the wars if not for the fact they used guerilla war tactics. Then when I started kind of looking and putting parallels together it seemed pretty clear to me.
The part about the lords of Dorne competing through torture is, in my opinion, somewhat typical of "insurgencies" in an attempt to legitimize themselves through a perception of fear It is not that they are sadistic and enjoy it so much as it is a sign of the extent they are going to in order to make themselves (Dorne) seem more capable and scary as enemies The competition between the lords was that of advancing this fearful perception of their realm. Not just a torture fetish gone main stream
And here we see the power of how histories are passed down. Again. I really, really want to believe in Dorne but it’s freaking hard sometimes. Are there good people being manipulated? Are there bad people? Is it a horrible mess? Am I running out of string to connect plot points? All yes.
There are good people everywhere but Dornish rulers don't give a shit about them - poor Edric Dayne no wonder he prefers war torn Riverlands to Dorne :/
Liz Lee they embody All Men Must Die imo we are gonna die anyway who gives shit about morals? Not Dorne apparently that's why I don't like seeing Turkish actors for Dornish characters I don't think neither Dorne or Dothraki symbolizes us, we are more like Free Folk
This is a million years late but I didn’t mean to imply there are no good people in Doorne, more that I want to believe in the Dornish nobility I suppose. I mean I LIKE Oberion. I like the sand snakes. I like Ellia in memory, and the Daynes, and there are others- but they seem to have alterior motives that let me down. It’s s beautiful place but it’s so dark underneath it’s hard not to be sad about it.
what reputation by the time the dragon turned to dorne everywhere else was theirs they fought for nothing they were going to lose nothing. Also let me remind you the martells can't call the targs foregn invaders since they themselves are also invaders along with the Andals
Alan L. Thanks, I’m aware. Preston’s channel was the first I subscribed to, so I don’t miss any of his videos. I never realized the Dornish had such a history of hand removal tho.
Blood Raven I find Preston's Dornish Masterplan theory pretty interesting, but I also find the Order of the Greenhand's Dornish analysis/theories also very compelling. I find it pretty cool how these two youtubers got different perspectives of house Martell as a result of their research. Preston seems to view the Martells and the Rhoynar in a more positive light, while the Greenhand seems to view them more negatively. Preston brings up rhoynish customs and dornish law in terms of how socially progressive and beneficial they are, while the Greenhand reveal some of the gruesome methods of torture the dornish are known for. Definitely like how people have gotten different views from reading the same content.
Alan L. They do say the Devil is attractive... It seems a little suspicious to me how Martin portrays the Martells as being everything that young people value now; feministic, sexually liberated, non-white etc. I think Martin may have done that deliberately to distract people from their more insidious practices like poisoning and torture and so on. Everyone's too focused on how Oberyn seems so pro-women because he taught Obara how to be a warrior... until you realise he abducted her by force and turned her into what seems like the female version of a Clegane.
Great job you 2! And nice touch on adding Dorne’s War crimes. Which leads me to ask if there’ll be a part 3 of this series where you talk about Daeron the Dragon and his short occupation of Dorne?
Euron seems to have a reason to be brutal in the specific ways that he is. So Spake Preston Jacobs, anyway. And yes Liz, the Aemon incident was hilarious. Oh, wait, I just checked and I was mixing him up with Lyonel Tyrell.
I’ve never read woiaf, so I never realized just how creepy dornish history is. Caves under Sunspear would explain why Elia Sand simply decided to explore the one in the Rainwood. I mean I always wondered how far she got there. But if she is used to Caves and such...
Recovering from a surgical procedure on my back and when I woke up from my med cloud, i was so happy to see this new edition to your fantastic channel. Thank you!!
well...after watching, to say the dornish are savage af is an understatement. while actualy playing the asoiaf rp tabletop, as a dornishman. i found myself emulating that savagery.when you have smallfolk and very little resources to feed, things get cut throat.
tough land make for tough people. tougher the rulers that can compel them. while i won't romanticize their brutality, i found myself in that table top game going to extremes to secure trade and resources. long term strategies are great, but in the environment of dorne, it really impressed upon me how close death hinged on success. every battle i fought, it had to be all or nothing.
Technically fire can also be Revenge if used correctly take a Dragon for example. In Norse mythology I can only assume that the dragon nidhogg breathes fire because he himself is a representation of entropy and vengeance
I had to hold out until today to watch this, another great video. The notion that an EXTENSIVE underground cave system - linking the 7 kingdoms and beyond - is so appealing. I want WoW even more than I did 7 years ago : )
we've been kinda talking about it since we made our Bloodraven and Faceless Men videos, and we've finally made it to enough corners of the map where we seem to find hints at it's existence that we're really starting to feel confident that an underworld of sorts exists under much of the known world
I like The Dornish because they didn't let the Targaryen's bully them. Their disappearing and reappearing is making use of their advantage just like Targayrens using dragons against human armies.
Another awesome video by The Order of the Green Hand. There’s so many things that I want you to cover because I view you both as authorities on ASOIAF. Can’t wait for the next one!!
Yay another video! Personally I'm cheering for Dorne, though I'm also kinda cheering for the White Walkers as well (in so far as their motives aren't entirely clear) so I guess I'm just contrary. Lets see if you can change my mind. Meria is the opposite of a good ruler, eh? This should be interesting. I'd argue that given Dorne's differences with the rest of Westeros there is the clear and present danger of cultural oppression. And frankly the Targaryens are the aggressors here. Why should we side with them? Its like playing a Total War game, you are usually encouraged by the mechanics to conquer and murder everyone. When you do, you're the villain. Stark bent the knee, yes, but the North was also culturally secure. Or more likely to remain so given its geography. Sometimes war is for the best of the people as well as the nobility. Rarely, but it can be so, and the Dornish actually had a chance against the Targaryens. If Stark saw a way to victory, he'd have taken it. I do wonder how Manichean A Song Of Ice And Fire will truly be in the end. If it ends up being so simplistically aligned then I fear I shall be disappointed. It makes sense that people living in a desert would rely on water, yeah, definitely. And I do see that there is a contrast between the North and Dorne, that's definitely true. Though the temperament of the Dornish is definitely more fiery than that of the Northmen. Its an interesting contrast. There is nothing to forgive when it comes to Guerilla tactics in this case. They were fighting asymmetrically because they had to to win, to preserve their way of life (no doubt as they saw it). If it were simply foolish Martell pride involved here, why would the other lords be so willing to face hardship and potential fire? Why would the soldiers? When fighting in defense of your home, your culture, and those you love there is nothing to be cared for when it comes to honour. Perhaps that makes the Crannogmen requiring forgiveness? Except they fight on the correct side?... Seems you agree, I just started writing after hearing "can be forgiven" and sort of took it the wrong way. But I'm leaving what I said here because I think it supports my point that the Dornish were perfectly justified in this. Sometimes protecting your people requires sacrifice of people, its a bloody paradox. And did this make Dorne more prosperous? No. It did keep them "free" and their own people, though, and many think that worthwhile. Its a simple scorched earth policy, and it works. The main question here is about whether or not resisting the Targaryens was worth it, not just for the rulers, but the people too. If so, then the ends justify the means. If not, then they do not. They did mention that they hid beneath the rocks when the dragons came, so... I guess there are mountains and such? Or could be underground. That makes some degree of sense. As for the fool incident, on its own it is morally reprehensible of course, but as a symbol of defiance? Effective. Certainly morale boosting. Aegon built walls to secure his power base, prevent people from undermining his authority, etc. A king who cannot protect his people from simple raiders probably won't last very long. It would be like saying the first Qin Emperor built the great wall solely for the good of the people... when he was a harsh Legalist, caused the deaths of thousands working at the wall, and seemed more obsessed about his own tomb and life than he did about the condition of the country after his death. That might be harsh of me, and I'm sure some could debate it, but the point still stands that Aegon isn't necessarily just being a good person here. He certainly has no compunction about sending his people to death in order to grab more territory for himself and his big ego. Seems that they waltzed into Sunspear, declared "Mission Accomplished!" and then promptly had to deal with massive rebellions. Hardly something to be lauded. Murdering people in the dark of night is fine. Chopping body parts off the knights, the leaders of the enemy, in order to instill fear into that enemy... also fine. Its terrible, but war is terrible. It certainly has the effect of "breaking the wheel" doesn't it? Those knights could normally be expected to be ransomed, so they don't face quite the consequences of their peasantry when it comes to feudal warfare. Well they're not fighting normal feudal warfare anymore. The difference between the Ghiscari and the Boltons is that both of those seem to be cruel to innocents for fun and profit. The Dornish are doing it to their enemies in order to win a war where they are fighting for their sovereign rights. I mean, apples and oranges here. Hmm, you have mentioned those underground Children of the Forest caverns before, I wonder if they are the source of these tunnels... is that where you are going with this? Fighting battles in the sand seems likely if it is directly on the route you would need to take in order to attack the capitol. They could easily have been ambushed by an overwhelming Dornish force hidden beneath the land. Slaughtering smallfolk and burning their crops is how you decrease public order and cause rebellion! Erm. In Total War. Its not all that different from Sherman's March to the Sea I suppose. Also the other bloke did take Lords and Defenders as hostages, so clearly they weren't just going after the smallfolk. The Allies bombed Dresden, after all! I mean, it wasn't actually effective, of course, but... they thought it warranted. I'm still not convinced the Dornish are the bad guys here.
Exactly. It seems to be natural for most Targaryens to Deal in absolutes, with a tendency to an "submit or burn" attitude. If it happens in the books, I believe this attitude will be Daenerys´ downfall.
I forget to mention this, and I hope it helps you guys in future videos. When I played the asoiaf table top, I chose to set my house near the brimstone. At the time I didn't know the finer details about the river. Being described as sulphurous, and to my st's dismay, I researched the fuck out of the subject of sulphur and treating it in water. I walked away with the impression that water treatment doesn't seem to be widely practiced in westeros. Too much sulphur present in water and you'd and up with sulphuric acid. This might explain why Hellholt is said to stink, since sulphur on its own carries a sent of rotten eggs, as well as to why there are no settlements along the brimstone other than hellholt. However, in the right balance, sulphurous water is very healthy not just you drink but you bathe in. Some of the best naturally occurring hot springs contain elements of sulphur. That reminded me of the hot springs in Winterfell. And since sulphur naturally occurs from volcanic emissions... there just might underground volcanic activity in the vicinity of Dorne.
excellent!!! i looked this up as well, a few months back, and i had forgotten all of it. now you're thinking like i do! there is no detail that is not a clue. i try to tell ser that all the time. i believe you are spot on, and i think it lends further credence to the idea that there is a vast underground cavern system under dorne. i just ordered a few packs of the GOT card packs. i am not going to play the game, but i am going to examine the cards for clues. please let me know if you find anything else that you think might be of use! -maryellen
I've got a sinking suspicion that Daenerys is a Dornish (stay with me here) imposter. It almost slaps you in the face that she grew up in Lemonwood (just south of Sunspear) and all her memories of the house with the red door and the lemon tree (a little too on the nose) are from there. That being said, I still think she is a Targaryen (just let me straighten my tin foil cap). Isn't it funny how ole George "Rail Road" Martin goes out of his way to point out that Rhaenys Targaryen's body was never recovered (much like Ashara Dayne's, and we all know she cruising thru Essos on the Shy Maid). Then there is the matter of the Dornish missive that was given to Aegon I, the one that caused his hand to bleed because he clutched it so tightly. Could it be that it that it simply stated that the Dornish were holding Rhaenys (his favorite sister) in Dorne and if he did not call off the dragons, they would send her back to him piece by piece ("What's in the box?!"). One more turn down the rabbit hole now.......could Daenerys actually be a descendent of Rhaenys? Well, I'm all out of tin foil, I'll have to see if Preston Jacobs has any to spare.
I'm speaking of the first Rhaenys (Aegon the Conquers sister wife). Her dragon was killed in Dorne after the conquest. Here body was never returned to King's Landing.
I think Daenerys is the last Blackfyre, and will take a position in the final struggle for the Iron Throne that is meant to echo black dragons in the history, such as Visenya/Maegor, Rhaenyra/Rogue Prince, and Daemon Blackfyre. I would not be surprised if the real Daenerys died and was replaced with a Blackfyre bastard girl called Visenya.
It's always good for you guys to put things into perspective. There was really nothing in there that i didn't know from other dips into martell history, but you're the first to put a proper perspective on it. They really are terrible. When reading the book it's hard not to empathize with them because they are experienced mentally via their most naive and selfish branches. That's really the trick of game of thrones. Most of the pov characters are flat out crazy. Some of them are entirely wrong in ways that their own mind has thoroughly convinced them is right. That is pretty much what it is to be a protagonist character in asoiaf - a rugged dogged self assurance that everything you are doing is right. Every single character that we step into is the most self absorbed person basically oblivious to the grander story around them. C'est la vie.
there are three places built of pink marble...one was Ny Sar...the Water Gardens is another, which obviously makes sense, given the fact that Nymeria was from Ny Sar, but the third was Velos, which was an old Ghiscari slaving outpost...it seems to us that he decided to invent a tiny little Ghiscari slave-trading island and could have put anything on it, and he chose to put a pink marble city on it, knowing Nymeria's city was the other pink city...it could be nothing, but it seems like it's one of those seemingly innocuous details George uses to draw subtle parallels between seemingly unrelated things
The use of a fool in place of a champion is similar to Sir Walter Scott's "Ivanhoe" where a fool named Wamba smuggles himself into the enemies castle as a priest and allows his lord and master to escape dressed as a priest and took his lords place. Quite a noble fool.
that might have been where George got the idea, but the circumstances in which this fool went out there seem a bit different...they say this fool was "mad", which implies he had some sort of mental handicap, and they dressed him in armor and sent him out there to be slaughtered as a diversion so they could get away...that just doesn't sit right with me, especially with how proud they are of what they did...it underlines a very serious lack of respect for the value of human lives that are "beneath them"
Since when are guerilla tactics devoid of honor? Dragons 🐉🐉 🐉 burning folks is WAAAY more dishonorable then hitting and running when you are being bombarded by fire monsters!!!
Quenton Gilliam the thing is at least the Dragons fight you face to face and if a lucky AF archer hits a dragon in the eye its game over meanwhile with sneaking although acceptable its kinda like throwing sand in someones eyes in a fight like hey not cool face me when I'm at my best.
Not gonna lie, dorne is brutal- but if people invaded my country id take their hands to make sure they didnt come back. Id take both and consider them lucky thwy werent staked out in the sun with shade just out of reach. Its war. War is brutal. Cutting off hands is better than burning entire castles and armies.
I think your characterization of ice in the books is actually a bit off. You guys seem to think ice is unequivocally bad, while fire is unequivocally good. But I would actually place concepts like duty, honor, and order under ice's domain in the books. Doing things one doesn't want to do in order to better society, or simply because they are right, that's ice. That's why the Starks are the way they are. Yes, Ice also carries death with it, but fire clearly does too. The idea is a balance between them, so that Fire, and all its associated concepts which are good in moderation but can easily turn to vices, doesn't burn unopposed.
we used George's own words to make that determination...George said Fire is life, passion, etc, while Ice is betrayal, death and cold inhumanity...and I don't for the life of me understand why people regard the Starks as Ice...they live somewhere that's cold, but are the Boltons, Umbers, Manderlys, Glovers, Dustins, etc also Ice? it seems to me that they'd have a closer affinity for fire than ice given how cold it is there and fire is how they survive
The idea for balance would also fit with GRRM´s statement that he does not deal in absolutes / writes next to nothing (not always but almost) in simple terms of "good" and "evil".
I Love your series on Dorn! (And all your videos really) but I know you will Roll your eyes but I'm a show watched and have yet to read a ASOIF outside of F Dunk and Egg book and it's awesome to see the actual side of Dorn we never got to on the show Thanks for the video I can't wait for the next installment of this series!
Totally off topic, but do you plan on doing any more collaboration videos? I had a vision while I was napping at the base of a tree where you guys, PJ, Westeros History, LML and BryndenBfish all get on the same live stream and go over your thoughts on the first Long Night. But we all know what visions are worth.....right?
Chopping off the hands of captives was quite a common practice in the middle ages. AFAIK, even King Lionheart ordered it to be done before releasing the captives, who had been paid ransom! A lot of the medieval violence can be explained by logistics. In that respect it's interesting to note that ancient Greece and the Roman Empire were far more organised and economically capable than any army of the dark ages and even many armies of the middle ages. Most couldn't afford professional soldiers and had to recruit peasants away from their food-production. This means that armies were smaller and the fraction of well-equipped and trained men was even smaller. Moreover, they had to supply themselves often by looting. Looting, murdering civilians and burning down settlements also significantly weakened the enemy regarding the size of army he could raise or the fraction of army he could use for attack rather than defending. Maiming enemies was even more effective than outright killing them, since maimed people couldn't fight, nor produce anything of value, but require food and help, thus binding further resources and demoralising the enemy. This side of warfare reached it's peak in the 30 years war (well past the middle ages!) and was still seen in WWII: the Wehrmacht tried to conquer new territory in order to squeeze out money to pay back the debts. For the same reason the holocaust was organised. The winter war was a logical consequence, since the command couldn't wait for spring without giving the Russians time to recover while going bankrupt in the mean-time. Later, most of the captured Wehrmacht soldiers in Stalingrad died, mostly due to the lack of transport, heating and food, which was barely enough to support the Soviet army on its own. Moreover, both sides committed countless atrocities which sparked the desire for revenge...
While I am unfamiliar with the books, and I see no reason to disagree with the "tunnels" idea, I think a possible theory for avoiding detection from dragons, is to retreat into the desert (away from the ground forces) then hold yellow tarps over their heads & such for camouflage from the high flying dragon scouts. Just an idea.
Just my 2cents regarding title Formatting: try putting the video title *before* all the other information about series and whatnot. like this: "_Dorne Against the Dragons - Game of Thrones/ASOIAF Theories | Mysteries, Myths and Motives_" Because the other way I cant even see it on mobile, also it makes it cleaner and easier to read at first glance
Woah, woah there. The presentation of Dornish as vicious and barbarians is obviously intentional from the maesters. From the text about king Gaemon Palehair we know about curious aspects about Dornish Law, which included not only gender equality, but also government social support for poor, general human rights, protection from domestic abuse and war veteran retribution. Gaemon try to implement these structures into his ruling, and is accordigly shunned for that in his chapter. His decrees were called "each more outrageous than the last" and as a "certainly work of Dornish whore named Sylvanna Sand, reputedly the paramour of the king's mother Essie". So I call bullshit on that supposed "next-level brutality".
is there actually anything resembling evidence that Dorne actually does any of the things Gaemon ruled on? I've never seen any smallfolk getting fed by the Martells...there would likely be thousands of guys who were maimed at the Trident and none of them are in the Shadow City getting fed or cared for...on the flip side, we know that the Dornish lords competed with one another to see who was the best systematic dismemberer of the bunch...they killed people under flags of truce...the Ullers invite people to their place to talk about land disputes and lock the doors and burn the place down with those who came to talk to them inside...Lord Wyl cut thousands of hands off before returning prisoners of war...you can try calling bs, but the facts are on our side
AEGON could have been WAY more ruthless Imagine if AEGON ordered salt to be poured all over Dornes fertile land (which there isn’t much) If he wanted he could have had dorne be no more than Sand and castles with no fertile land
Dornish are my favorites,they were clever and brave and did care about their people. But more then their lives,they loved their freedom and the Dornish rulers were exactly like their people,when Deria Martell, Meria's grandaughter signed a peace treaty and war had finished,guess what, the dornish common people rebelled anyway and joined The Eagle to keep fighting the Targeryriens. Both Dornish rulers and people were smart and learned from the previous mistakes of Westerosi lords,this video keeps saying they didn't care about the people,they did and their people would've never forgave them if they bent the knee to keep their riches and comforts like the rest of the lords
Important question.. Who is the Mummer's Dragon? Everyone assumes that means Young Griff but it seems like she is speaking of two different people. Beware the Mummer's Dragon. So.. who is the Mummer and who is the dragon?
I have so many theories on these two words. But I would love to hear what The Order thinks of this line. I've watched every video and I don't remember if y'all covered it or caught that it DEFINITELY means two people. This Dragon belongs to someone who is pretending to be someone who they aren't. Since Varys backs Aegon, could it be him?
I'm about just under half way through the video, but I was just wondering if you see the Martels as the firey sun seed in the water/ice side of the yin yang symbolism and the Starks as the icy moon seed in the fire side? Sounds a bit bananas, but I always saw the Martells as a kind of 'hot' house due to the sun symbolism they don.
How did the dornish know when they had to hide? I mean did they have contacts in targaryen host that informed them as soon as dragons took flight from King's landing? I mean if they weren't told about dragons leaving Kings landing then surely at least some of the dornish Lords would have been caught before hiding especially ones closer to the border maybe not sunspear but others.
The gets me hyped up for the Fire and Blood book later this year. It's no Winds of Winter sadly but seeing all the history play out in the pages will be hella interesting.All the kings, knights, dragons and battles are gonna be great to read.
Even if I don't agree with every singly point in every single one of you guys' videos, everything you present is plausible, thought through and thought provoking. Whilst I think that the Dornish may not be as barbarous as the Reach-dwelling-Maester-written World of Ice and Fire presents, they certainly have a darker side that the fanbase just seems to ignore, and this video brings that into the light. Keep up the great work
@agnat86 yes i have noticed for some reason they choose to really promote the targaryen-favorable perspective
Even though there would be a higher chance of that sort of stuff being deluded by imperial propaganda by the point the books are being written
You know you are into it when a 25 min video feels like you just started watching. And it's wrapping up. I'm like awwww, every time.
Here during the pandemic. Passes my time during work nicely.
Damn Dorne you scary! Just goes to show you how the dornish were wasted in the show. Seems like you barely get a hint of this stuff from the show before they killed off everyone.
In defense of the show, to have made all this clear on TV would have required *significant* time spent in Dorne, probably over several seasons, and there was no PoV character to do that.
And there's no real way to make the history of the Dornish people clear on the show, when that history is so important to the current events.
IMO, were it not for Oberyn's character -- the only real good thing about Dorne to make it into the show -- the show would have been better to have cut out Dorne altogether, or to at least have never spent any real time there.
Ryeguy123a totally agree, it wouldn’t have been doable for the show to go this in depth with the dornish, I just feel bad that the show couldn’t touch on this kind of depth due to the time constraints. Just goes to show the ability of the books to go deeper than the show can. At least we got Oberyn
Great video as always. It is interesting to note that the dornish are proud of their brutal hit and run tactics and seem to care little for their small folk. Doran is cut from the same cloth as the yellow toad. They both view their people as pieces on a gameboard. In chess, pawns are often used as sacrificial pieces to force the opposition into a compromising position. Seems that is what dorne did as well. They sacrafice their pawns for better plays and remove their opponents pawns so that they cannot be used in the same way. Brutally effective tactics.
Anthony Rose
As a Chess player I agree, but to a point.
In Chess, ANY piece (except the King) can be used as a sacrifice.
I would also argue that while the King is the most important piece in Chess and the Queen is the second most important (and most versatile) piece, Pawns are actually the third most important piece, because they can "promote" to other pieces upon reaching the last rank of the board.
Do you not think Doran being a mastermind could just be a red herring? I feel like the Dornish plot will end with tragic inadequacy and unfulfilled ambitions
I've said it before. Bowed, bent and broken is how they may end up.
That would be like one of the most fucked up rug pulls George could have in store, I think it's either that or Rhoynish Restoration/Independency like Preston Jacobs says.
This might be true. Doran assumes he is a good player but as up to now he barely moved any pieces he has not proven himself yet.
Arya names her wolf Nymeria then becomes a faceless man later on
foreshadowing WHAT
I can't even watch other people's Game of Thrones contents anymore after watching what you put out it's so well thought-out and researched. Even the ones I don't agree with I can see how you ended up there and it make sense. Regardless of whether or not it's right. I only wish I had stumbled on it years later so I wouldn't have to wait on a week-by-week basis to watch your new videos.
I think you're being a bit hard on the Martells. The Dornish small folk seem to be as warlike as their rulers. In one of Arianne's chapters she can hear the people in the outer city clamouring for revenge for Oberyn's death and she feels like Sunspear is simmering with pent up fury. Obviously sending a mentally disabled person out to die is execrable but some of their other tactics are understandable like boys and women defending a castle I think was more as a ruse than a sacrifice: making Aegon think the real force was in the castle rather than fleeing or hiding. They probably counted on his known merciful nature and knew he wouldn't kill the defenders once he realised he'd been tricked. Torture seems to be fairly common across the seven kingdoms to be fair!
George said there is a greater sense of nationalism in Dorne than the other six kingdoms, which leads me to believe it has something to do with their largely Rhoynish heritage...we didn't have an issue with the tactics they used to resist conquest...it is more about the manner in which they conducted themselves...they abandoned everyone who wouldn't be much help with their war effort and left them to fend for themselves...they tortured and mutilated prisoners of war as if it were a game...when they did hit back, they targeted smallfolk, not military targets...like we said in the video, their use of Welsh-like tactics was the only way they would be capable of resisting, and everyone has the right to resist conquest, but we stopped feeling even remotely bad for them when they revealed themselves to be a land filled with Ramsay Boltons, who take great pleasure in lopping body parts off of their foes like it's a game
Guerrilla tactics were invented by the Spanish when the Fat ass of Napoleon tricked the governor of the nation and let the French troops cross the peninsula "to war against Portugal". Defenseless, the inhabitants were forced to survive anyhow against these rapist and pillagers. And our terrain was perfect to ambush and bleed them. There is even a story that the French slew a village south of the peninsula and the survivors faked friendship towards them and invited the soldiers to a feast... They were all poisoned.
So, some Dornish parts are based on Spanish history. However, we ain't like Dornish people. Well, one good clue is that none of the three Dornish skin types described in the books match our fenotypes, in general.
Skwisgaar Skwigelf grrm said that among others, the dornish were based on the moors invading tge spanish peninsula so that might explain the phenotype, the link to the spanish...
Liz Lee I'd back that. Sir Dantos is a considered fool but we all know how capable he is of making decisions.
@@skwisgaarskwigelf331 I always thought that Dorne is there to represent Iberia during the reconquista period, with their mixture of races, is the closest real world equivalent there is to it.
Torrhen Stark is one of my favorites. Cuz it takes a real man to forsake his pride and his honor and acccept that he's been beaten. so you can almost say that no one in the current story is a real man no one, except maybe Sam but Sam's too squishy so you know what he doesn't count he's more than a man
Ned Stark put aside his pride and honor for his daughters
So squishy.
@@qb984 and his “son” (nephew)
love it. the order of the green hand stomping on our preconceptions of people and houses in fine style once again.
Secret entrances to caves
That'd be a good place to get clean water, maybe even grow low-light crops as the dark damp allows for things to decompose and make dirt.
Also, it would make sense that the common folk wouldn't know about these caves; to keep the secret from the rest of the world, only the Lords and prominent families would be privy to the information.
Underground farming huh? Seems like House Martell would not be very torn up over another Long Night...
The Dornish and the Martells are a very deep and interesting subject. Great work as always Milord and Lady. Love and Hugs ♥️💋🇿🇦
You pointed out in the beginning that Meria Martell refuses to bow and is willing to let her people die instead. However, isn't it fair to say that the people of Dorne are themselves unwilling to bow and would rather die? When Dorne is conquered by Daeron I, the smallfolk continue to fight back and manage to liberate Dorne from Daeron without the help of the lords of Dorne. Similarly, when Aegon tries to create a rift between the Dornishmen by saying that the Martells have found their way to safety by buying a weapon that can kill dragons, the Dornish still refuse to give up their allegiance to the Martells. It seems to me that it is not just the princes/princesses of Dorne who wanted the Targaryens to stay away from Dorne but the smallfolk and other nobility shared this belief.
Ah yes Nymeria's Dornish husband. While High Hermitage seem to be line of Nymeria I think as the years passed they returned pro First Men as well since Ser Gerold Dayne himself doesn't view Rhoynar in a positive line and we know Dayne animosity of Old Town dates back to the time where they had Kings.
that's an interesting observation...he certainly doesn't see anything great about Prince Garin
The Order of the Green Hand Obara and Areo better watch out Gerold will now loose to some slave and a bastard lol
would you I mean the man led 250,000 men to their deaths and had 9 wars against the dragonlords one if you have 9 wars against a group of people I think after the 3 time negotiations can be made 2 war is bad for trade
Great video as always. I was wondering what direction you were going to take with your Dorne videos. Of all the seven kingdoms, Dorne has always been my favourite for the very fact that they were the only ones to successfully resist the Targaryen invasion. In the face of Aegon's nigh unstoppable conquest and his awing, weapons of unmatched power, I have always equated Dorne with those few places in our world who have successfully thwarted colonial ambitions in spite of all their mortars and maxims... and dragons. Plus, with Dorne's geography and propensity to strike hard, fast, and "scurry back beneath their rocks" (as well as their overtly Islamic architecture), their resemblance to Afghanistan was always at the forefront of my mind. A nation with a well earned moniker as "The Death of Empires".
While this video didn't manage to break my love of Dorne, it has brought to light even more similarities... ones that are not so great. The treatment of those not war capable, especially. The brutal lengths and unsavory tactics they're willing to employ in order to resist foreign invasion. Yea... perhaps they are more similar to Afghanistan then I had original thought or would like to admit. Still, even if Aegon was as benevolent a king as you could ask for, that Dorne never asked is singularly the most important thing. I cannot bring myself to fault them for resisting unwanted subjugation, no matter the lengths they go to do it. One cannot invade another's country, burn their field and homes, kill their people, and then balk at the brutality with which they are resisted. Torture is a horrendous and unjustifiable thing, but it wouldn't have happened had you checked your ambitions and stayed home.
I was thinking this as I watched the video. The parallels are so striking.
The art, editing and content are second to none! Especially interesting and often overlooked, is the aspect of water magic, glad you brought that aspect into the mix. Magics of Ice, Fire, blood have been lightly covered by others. I think GRRM is cautiously revealing that multiple natural forces are forms of magic. "cold WINDS are rising", "I am the storm (Air/Clouds) ", The white walkers bring the storm, ( ICE/SNOW) the weirwoods,(TREES/FOREST) children of the forest, and patches definitely had some type of encounter with WATER magic/gods. Did the Dornish potentially use some type of EARTH/SAND magic to conceal their armies? Thanks so much for your wonderful work! Love QOT.🌹 😊
Well said m’lady
every day that i log into youtube i hope to see a new vid from you guys. so when that happens i get pretty excited. great stuff as always. thank you for doing this!
Surely the dornish aren't all bad right? Isn't the truth somewhere in the middle?
Will you guys tackle dornish law and customs in a later video by chance, it would be interesting to see a deeper analysis on the culture presented.
Please never stop the amazing work on ASOIAF. Top notch channel ❤️
Dorne against the valyrians. I love that story.
All hail His King and Queen Greenhand. First of Their Name, Rulers of the Andals and the First Men, ,Speaker of Truths, Breaker of Theories, and Protectors of N+A=J
This is one of my favorite comments we’ve ever received
The Order of the Green Hand if you collect anymore titles you could challenge Dany to see who has more tittles.
N+A=J?! 🤔 Really?! 🙄 SMH Ya'll are still holding out hope for THAT theory to come true, huh?! Jesus...
@@LoneWolf-xe6ye or Wyman manderly
A+L=J is the true way.
It's fascinating how much you can like their videos despite not agreeing with their point. Love it.
I'm not saying there aren't tunnels under Dorne, because it seems like there are tunnels everywhere in Westeros. However deserts are real easy to disappear in, even from search parties with helicopters. Canyon Lands in Utah is an example of a desert that was made for hiding in, you could hide an army there and they that would be a lot more comfortable in the slots than anyone flying above looking for them. Chances are they spent the days under cover and only move at night like the fremen of Dune.
the issue is they might be able to hide for a day or two, but armies need to stay close to water, which should make it easy to find them, but they never found them
Well I think if as you said later in the video that they were hiding in caves near their castles and just waiting, that is the most likely scenario by far.
However I don't think you can under estimate the ability of a desert people to thrive in a place that looks unlivable. Just to go back to my example of Canyon Lands, those slots are full of water if you know where to look. If every man had 4 horses they would be boned but if they aren't over loaded on cattle it's just a matter of spreading out and not being active while the sun is out.
If you look at all the cave dwellings in the American Southwest almost none of them can be spotted easily from above because defense from the sun was one of the first priorities. They all also had plenty of water because the natives knew where all the springs were hidden. If the Armies of the Dorne were divided up at the company or platoon level they should have no problem living off a land they have been native to for thousands of years.
But yeah they were almost definitely hiding in caves right outside their own castles for the most part like you said.
i see the Dorne fighting back the only way they could, and being the only successful ones to resist the Targaryens. While they do seem to have connections with slavery, and do some cruel things, I think their battle strategy was smart.
But was it really necessary ? The Martells and they're psycho bannermen seemed to be fighting just for the sake of their pride than freedom
Hi, great video as always :) In regard to your previous video on Sarella/Shae, I wanted to ask you what do you think of my theory that Alleras might actually be a son of Oberyn Martell, instead of a daughter.
I think it makes quite a bit of sense. Oberyn would likely want to send his son to study at the Citadel, just like he himself did, then there is the similarity in physical appearance and Alleras being swarmed by women, which again seems very Oberyn-like. Also there is the "I am son of no lord" line, hinting that his father might be a prince.
Of course Alleras and Sarella would be siblings or at least half-siblings. But I actually think they might be twins. Sarella and Alleras are known to be roughly the same age, plus it would explain nicely the mirroring names.
We have considered the possibility. We think Alleras is a Jordayne bastard (the green brigantine suggests it anyways). They are the only house in Dorne that prominently displays green in their banner, their seat, the Tor, is right on the Dornish Sea, etc
I gues that could be true, but what about the "I am no lord's son" line? Jordaynes are lords, so Alleras being a Jordayne bastard would kinda negate that proclamation. I suppose he could be lying , but why? I would think that a young attractive men would rather be bragging about being son of a lord, rather then hiding it. And the way he says the line almost implyes that lords are beneath whoever his father is, if he had just a common parrentage he might have formulated it more like "I am not son of a lord".
It would also make a lot of sense to hide his identity if he really was Oberyn´s son, as Oberyn has plenty of enemies and everyone would be immediately suspicious of him, as Oberyn´s children are know to be very dangerous.
But idk, I might just be reading too much into that one line.
Any chance that the Jordayne's are some kind of branch of the Dayne's much like the Stark/Karstarks? Maybe a Nymeria/Dayne off shoot given lands near Sunspear
Damn, never thought about that! Maybe you're up to something.
Isn't that chopping of men's hand connected the dornish to the chopped hand of jaime lannister, like that a clue about who is behind it.?
asaf davidson Oberyn founded the Brave Companions and they have Dornish members
allyria stark where does it say that?
@@arawn1061 Yeah he started *a* sellsword company, but I don't know if it was the Brave Companions. They seem a little too brutish for Oberyn's stylez.
Madeline Sartori wait when did he say that
So George admits that stannis is the right kind of king to rule. I knew it
ivanbluecool yeah but the problem with Stannis the maniss is he doesn't know how to compromise and this last part is out of topic but imagine if Jon joined him in taking the kingdoms I would have loved to read about that.
ivanbluecool yeah but i meant full on leaving the wall
Liz Lee yup
Liz Lee what George said gis biggest flaw is the leach scene. It means stannis not accepting the peach is like rejecting ever feeling relaxed or take a moment to smell the flowers. Yes he needs someone with charisma bur I do see davos as someone who has and will guide Stannis to how to help the people. Stannis learned his mistake instead of listening to high ranks for people who didn't deserve it. He then names davos his hand as davos knows how the poor born act and can help win more to his cause. Stannis wont bend before he breaks like they say. Jon almost took the job before being named lord commander without asking for it with so many tiny miracles to help him. Renly is the one who messed up. If he and Stannis worked together instead of fighting. Renly would be alive and could help make allies for Stannis to balance his hard exterior. If stannis loses in the battle of ice. All the north is doom and the hope for winning back the north will be gone. Hopefully his plan comes together and he beats the boltons
Liz Lee I know he wont win the throne or taste the fruits of his labor. But mel did say she saw Stannis fighting in the winter and his leadership is important. Rob would be fine with Jon taking winterfell if it meant saving it from boltons. Stannis does command respect but lacks any real friendship with anyone like Robert who made friends with enemies. Stannis also believes he will die in the battle or be heard died and send someone who is not loyal with all his money to hire sell swords for his daughter but she may die at the wall like George hinted at. What I think will happen is stannis will die after saving the north as they dont have any loyalty to him and he will hear his wife and daughter are dead at the wall and he alone. He will be fighting to save the realm because its his duty but get no thanks for it and may get betrayed by the North if davos comes back with a died rickon. They haven't told him about bran being alive either so they are keeping him in the dark. I'm sure he has plans with mance as they talked for hours and Jon warned him about the karstark traitors so what I see is the karstark fighting and the boltons allies think them allies will be destroyed while stannis attacks the frey and perhaps the maderly causing more problems down thr road. But if he doesn't act soon. The north will never rise again and as he says about bleeding the people will be too weak for the real danger of the white walkers. He may also get help form the wildlings Calvary which will add to the confusion. Whatever happens. Stannis must destroy the boltons and frey. I think he will die of the cold as he will break before he bends could be a hint to that.
So house wyl cutting of limbs remind you of anyone from the current timeline oh yeah BRAVE COMPANIONS
Preston Jacobs thinks that the BC is the company that Oberyn founded, after all.
Wow this was surprisingly interesting and very well presented and believable. The more I learn about the Dornish the more intriguing they become. I‘m really *really* interested to see what role the Dornish and House Martell are going to play in the wars and books to come.
as are we...they are among the most difficult to forecast because we get so little access to any of them, and those we do get access to are clueless
I really wonder about Ashara. Her name has been lurking in our story from the very beginning and there definitely seem to have been some feelings and history between her and Ned. I just don't know whether it's all a red herring or whether she will actually influence the current narrative in some way (did she have a child after all?). Ashara is probably the character I'm most interested in finding out more about - along with Quaithe of course (or are they the same person??)
Another great video. Your content is unparalleled. Really interesting & thought provoking stuff. Thank you so much for your fantastic videos. 🤗
thank you so much for watching
Great as always. Nothing stirs my passions like the Dornish Wars in TWOIAF. The Dornish are fighting for freedom, but often cross the line and you start rooting for revenge and the whole thing circles back again. GRRM at his best: the hideous grayness of everything.
Food for thought i had while watching this.. I feel like George often ties in modern day conflicts and political opinions into his battles/conflicts. For example, Dany's conflict with Merreen and slavers bay has a lot of similarities to the Iraqi war- America/Dany/outside countries seeing a condition in a foreign country has being terrible, rushing in, really without a lot of planning or anything, to change it and re establish government etc and then created power vacuums, and leading room for terrorist organizations to form in the midst of it all.
When watching this and reading Dorne against dragons I am really really reminded of the Vietnam war. Rhoyne/Essos/Rhoynish customs being communism, Dorne also being Vietnam, targaryens being america, etc, etc. (I was especially hit over the head with these paraellels when talking about underground tunnels and Guerrilla Warfare tactics that Dorne and Vietnam used, which had a huge impact against the United States/Targaryens, that really should have easily won the war without them) I am no historian and all I know about the war is from school and history class and things I've read online so I could be wrong but the parallels were pretty clear to me. Here is my thought... What is George trying to say about this? I mean he was a pretty big activist against the Vietnam war and for intents and purposes kind of a hippy at the time. Its hard to imagine him writing such a clear parallel to that war when he was a consciousness objector in real life, but speaking in support of the U.S./Targaryens in his writing. You guys always talk about how Maesters white wash history in their favor, and honestly the United States is guilty of that as well, so maybe there is more to the story than what is presented in the history. Or maybe not. What message is he trying to convey? Or maybe just try to make people think a little harder about the subject? I honestly have no idea.
Yes! I realized much of the same you did and started doing research and found so many parallels to vietnam, hiroshima, the cold war, communism, etc...I have a cpl theories on how it's all connected. If I can organize them into a cohesive summary, I'll post here, would love to hear any of your ideas as well. You're the only other person I've seen to bring up these connections. Awesome.
yeah I would love to see those theories! It really hit me over the head when the dornish were described as the lesser power that should have lost the wars if not for the fact they used guerilla war tactics. Then when I started kind of looking and putting parallels together it seemed pretty clear to me.
When does stubborn North Man bends the knee something should tell you something
Hasan Wilson oh yeah i mean in the story they are fighting even though the chances of them winning are slim as hell.
The part about the lords of Dorne competing through torture is, in my opinion, somewhat typical of "insurgencies" in an attempt to legitimize themselves through a perception of fear
It is not that they are sadistic and enjoy it so much as it is a sign of the extent they are going to in order to make themselves (Dorne) seem more capable and scary as enemies
The competition between the lords was that of advancing this fearful perception of their realm. Not just a torture fetish gone main stream
Almost makes you wish aegon had some firewyrms from Valyria.
You guys are ok!!!!! we were about to call the banners.
And here we see the power of how histories are passed down. Again.
I really, really want to believe in Dorne but it’s freaking hard sometimes. Are there good people being manipulated? Are there bad people? Is it a horrible mess? Am I running out of string to connect plot points? All yes.
we think there are some good people in Dorne...but they are way outnumbered
There are good people everywhere but Dornish rulers don't give a shit about them - poor Edric Dayne no wonder he prefers war torn Riverlands to Dorne :/
Liz Lee they embody All Men Must Die imo we are gonna die anyway who gives shit about morals? Not Dorne apparently that's why I don't like seeing Turkish actors for Dornish characters I don't think neither Dorne or Dothraki symbolizes us, we are more like Free Folk
This is a million years late but I didn’t mean to imply there are no good people in Doorne, more that I want to believe in the Dornish nobility I suppose. I mean I LIKE Oberion. I like the sand snakes. I like Ellia in memory, and the Daynes, and there are others- but they seem to have alterior motives that let me down. It’s s beautiful place but it’s so dark underneath it’s hard not to be sad about it.
what reputation by the time the dragon turned to dorne everywhere else was theirs they fought for nothing they were going to lose nothing. Also let me remind you the martells can't call the targs foregn invaders since they themselves are also invaders along with the Andals
With all this about hand removal done by the Dornish I can’t help but think of Jamie. The Dornish must have had something to do with it.
Blood Raven Preston Jacobs made a theory video saying that the mercenary company that cut off Jamie's hand belonged to Oberyn.
Alan L. Thanks, I’m aware. Preston’s channel was the first I subscribed to, so I don’t miss any of his videos. I never realized the Dornish had such a history of hand removal tho.
Blood Raven I find Preston's Dornish Masterplan theory pretty interesting, but I also find the Order of the Greenhand's Dornish analysis/theories also very compelling. I find it pretty cool how these two youtubers got different perspectives of house Martell as a result of their research.
Preston seems to view the Martells and the Rhoynar in a more positive light, while the Greenhand seems to view them more negatively.
Preston brings up rhoynish customs and dornish law in terms of how socially progressive and beneficial they are, while the Greenhand reveal some of the gruesome methods of torture the dornish are known for.
Definitely like how people have gotten different views from reading the same content.
Alan L. They do say the Devil is attractive... It seems a little suspicious to me how Martin portrays the Martells as being everything that young people value now; feministic, sexually liberated, non-white etc.
I think Martin may have done that deliberately to distract people from their more insidious practices like poisoning and torture and so on. Everyone's too focused on how Oberyn seems so pro-women because he taught Obara how to be a warrior... until you realise he abducted her by force and turned her into what seems like the female version of a Clegane.
@@alanl.4252 Can I get a link to it? I love Preston and I can’t find it :( Thought I’d seen all his videos lol
Great job you 2! And nice touch on adding Dorne’s War crimes. Which leads me to ask if there’ll be a part 3 of this series where you talk about Daeron the Dragon and his short occupation of Dorne?
We’re hopeful that we can get through daeron the good in part 2 but knowing us that’ll probably end up being in part 4
Finished my last exam and came home to this...Great day!
"Next-level brutality, only rivaled by the Ghiscari and Ramsay Bolton" - and the Bloody Mummers, who I think are working for the Martells.
Don’t forget Euron Greyjoy.
Euron seems to have a reason to be brutal in the specific ways that he is. So Spake Preston Jacobs, anyway.
And yes Liz, the Aemon incident was hilarious. Oh, wait, I just checked and I was mixing him up with Lyonel Tyrell.
Getting my 'Order of the Green Hand' fix :)
I’ve never read woiaf, so I never realized just how creepy dornish history is.
Caves under Sunspear would explain why Elia Sand simply decided to explore the one in the Rainwood. I mean I always wondered how far she got there. But if she is used to Caves and such...
Interesting point.
Recovering from a surgical procedure on my back and when I woke up from my med cloud, i was so happy to see this new edition to your fantastic channel. Thank you!!
Glad to see this ..Thank you Order of the Green Hand
How did I miss this notification on my phone for a whole 27 minutes! I could have watched this by now if I had been on the ball, dagnamitt.
I couldn't be happier that you uploaded a new video ❤️
well...after watching, to say the dornish are savage af is an understatement. while actualy playing the asoiaf rp tabletop, as a dornishman. i found myself emulating that savagery.when you have smallfolk and very little resources to feed, things get cut throat.
tough land make for tough people. tougher the rulers that can compel them. while i won't romanticize their brutality, i found myself in that table top game going to extremes to secure trade and resources. long term strategies are great, but in the environment of dorne, it really impressed upon me how close death hinged on success. every battle i fought, it had to be all or nothing.
Technically fire can also be Revenge if used correctly take a Dragon for example. In Norse mythology I can only assume that the dragon nidhogg breathes fire because he himself is a representation of entropy and vengeance
I had to hold out until today to watch this, another great video. The notion that an EXTENSIVE underground cave system - linking the 7 kingdoms and beyond - is so appealing. I want WoW even more than I did 7 years ago : )
we've been kinda talking about it since we made our Bloodraven and Faceless Men videos, and we've finally made it to enough corners of the map where we seem to find hints at it's existence that we're really starting to feel confident that an underworld of sorts exists under much of the known world
The representation of the water-garden contradicts Dorne's track record of Defending its people
That's because dorne didn't make the water gardens it sounds like the first Dany did but her dornish husband got the credit for it
I love gettin a green lung and throwin on a new green hand.
I like The Dornish because they didn't let the Targaryen's bully them. Their disappearing and reappearing is making use of their advantage just like Targayrens using dragons against human armies.
Stupid excited to hear this! Bummer bout The Winds of Winter not coming out this year!
Another awesome video by The Order of the Green Hand. There’s so many things that I want you to cover because I view you both as authorities on ASOIAF. Can’t wait for the next one!!
thank you so much...your name is phenomenal
Yay another video!
Personally I'm cheering for Dorne, though I'm also kinda cheering for the White Walkers as well (in so far as their motives aren't entirely clear) so I guess I'm just contrary. Lets see if you can change my mind.
Meria is the opposite of a good ruler, eh? This should be interesting. I'd argue that given Dorne's differences with the rest of Westeros there is the clear and present danger of cultural oppression. And frankly the Targaryens are the aggressors here. Why should we side with them? Its like playing a Total War game, you are usually encouraged by the mechanics to conquer and murder everyone. When you do, you're the villain. Stark bent the knee, yes, but the North was also culturally secure. Or more likely to remain so given its geography. Sometimes war is for the best of the people as well as the nobility. Rarely, but it can be so, and the Dornish actually had a chance against the Targaryens. If Stark saw a way to victory, he'd have taken it.
I do wonder how Manichean A Song Of Ice And Fire will truly be in the end. If it ends up being so simplistically aligned then I fear I shall be disappointed.
It makes sense that people living in a desert would rely on water, yeah, definitely. And I do see that there is a contrast between the North and Dorne, that's definitely true. Though the temperament of the Dornish is definitely more fiery than that of the Northmen. Its an interesting contrast.
There is nothing to forgive when it comes to Guerilla tactics in this case. They were fighting asymmetrically because they had to to win, to preserve their way of life (no doubt as they saw it). If it were simply foolish Martell pride involved here, why would the other lords be so willing to face hardship and potential fire? Why would the soldiers? When fighting in defense of your home, your culture, and those you love there is nothing to be cared for when it comes to honour. Perhaps that makes the Crannogmen requiring forgiveness? Except they fight on the correct side?... Seems you agree, I just started writing after hearing "can be forgiven" and sort of took it the wrong way. But I'm leaving what I said here because I think it supports my point that the Dornish were perfectly justified in this.
Sometimes protecting your people requires sacrifice of people, its a bloody paradox. And did this make Dorne more prosperous? No. It did keep them "free" and their own people, though, and many think that worthwhile. Its a simple scorched earth policy, and it works. The main question here is about whether or not resisting the Targaryens was worth it, not just for the rulers, but the people too. If so, then the ends justify the means. If not, then they do not.
They did mention that they hid beneath the rocks when the dragons came, so... I guess there are mountains and such? Or could be underground. That makes some degree of sense.
As for the fool incident, on its own it is morally reprehensible of course, but as a symbol of defiance? Effective. Certainly morale boosting.
Aegon built walls to secure his power base, prevent people from undermining his authority, etc. A king who cannot protect his people from simple raiders probably won't last very long. It would be like saying the first Qin Emperor built the great wall solely for the good of the people... when he was a harsh Legalist, caused the deaths of thousands working at the wall, and seemed more obsessed about his own tomb and life than he did about the condition of the country after his death. That might be harsh of me, and I'm sure some could debate it, but the point still stands that Aegon isn't necessarily just being a good person here. He certainly has no compunction about sending his people to death in order to grab more territory for himself and his big ego.
Seems that they waltzed into Sunspear, declared "Mission Accomplished!" and then promptly had to deal with massive rebellions. Hardly something to be lauded.
Murdering people in the dark of night is fine. Chopping body parts off the knights, the leaders of the enemy, in order to instill fear into that enemy... also fine. Its terrible, but war is terrible. It certainly has the effect of "breaking the wheel" doesn't it? Those knights could normally be expected to be ransomed, so they don't face quite the consequences of their peasantry when it comes to feudal warfare. Well they're not fighting normal feudal warfare anymore. The difference between the Ghiscari and the Boltons is that both of those seem to be cruel to innocents for fun and profit. The Dornish are doing it to their enemies in order to win a war where they are fighting for their sovereign rights. I mean, apples and oranges here.
Hmm, you have mentioned those underground Children of the Forest caverns before, I wonder if they are the source of these tunnels... is that where you are going with this?
Fighting battles in the sand seems likely if it is directly on the route you would need to take in order to attack the capitol. They could easily have been ambushed by an overwhelming Dornish force hidden beneath the land.
Slaughtering smallfolk and burning their crops is how you decrease public order and cause rebellion! Erm. In Total War. Its not all that different from Sherman's March to the Sea I suppose. Also the other bloke did take Lords and Defenders as hostages, so clearly they weren't just going after the smallfolk. The Allies bombed Dresden, after all! I mean, it wasn't actually effective, of course, but... they thought it warranted.
I'm still not convinced the Dornish are the bad guys here.
I'm still on Dorne'a side. Homie just swooped in on his dragons and started taking over places. He brought the headache that is Dorne on himself.
Exactly. It seems to be natural for most Targaryens to Deal in absolutes, with a tendency to an "submit or burn" attitude. If it happens in the books, I believe this attitude will be Daenerys´ downfall.
Yeah the little finger and similarities with the bravosi is astounding
Liz Lee I know
Splendid as always! Can't wait for part 2..
You guys really have the best asoiaf theories. :)
thank you
Long time no see, sure the wait was well worth it
I forget to mention this, and I hope it helps you guys in future videos. When I played the asoiaf table top, I chose to set my house near the brimstone. At the time I didn't know the finer details about the river. Being described as sulphurous, and to my st's dismay, I researched the fuck out of the subject of sulphur and treating it in water. I walked away with the impression that water treatment doesn't seem to be widely practiced in westeros. Too much sulphur present in water and you'd and up with sulphuric acid. This might explain why Hellholt is said to stink, since sulphur on its own carries a sent of rotten eggs, as well as to why there are no settlements along the brimstone other than hellholt.
However, in the right balance, sulphurous water is very healthy not just you drink but you bathe in. Some of the best naturally occurring hot springs contain elements of sulphur. That reminded me of the hot springs in Winterfell. And since sulphur naturally occurs from volcanic emissions... there just might underground volcanic activity in the vicinity of Dorne.
excellent!!! i looked this up as well, a few months back, and i had forgotten all of it. now you're thinking like i do! there is no detail that is not a clue. i try to tell ser that all the time. i believe you are spot on, and i think it lends further credence to the idea that there is a vast underground cavern system under dorne. i just ordered a few packs of the GOT card packs. i am not going to play the game, but i am going to examine the cards for clues. please let me know if you find anything else that you think might be of use! -maryellen
The Order of the Green Hand
Will do
I've got a sinking suspicion that Daenerys is a Dornish (stay with me here) imposter. It almost slaps you in the face that she grew up in Lemonwood (just south of Sunspear) and all her memories of the house with the red door and the lemon tree (a little too on the nose) are from there.
That being said, I still think she is a Targaryen (just let me straighten my tin foil cap). Isn't it funny how ole George "Rail Road" Martin goes out of his way to point out that Rhaenys Targaryen's body was never recovered (much like Ashara Dayne's, and we all know she cruising thru Essos on the Shy Maid).
Then there is the matter of the Dornish missive that was given to Aegon I, the one that caused his hand to bleed because he clutched it so tightly. Could it be that it that it simply stated that the Dornish were holding Rhaenys (his favorite sister) in Dorne and if he did not call off the dragons, they would send her back to him piece by piece ("What's in the box?!").
One more turn down the rabbit hole now.......could Daenerys actually be a descendent of Rhaenys? Well, I'm all out of tin foil, I'll have to see if Preston Jacobs has any to spare.
Don't eorry just like tywin got his the dornish will get there's in way they don't expect
rkwilli100 im pretty sure rhaenys' body was displayed by the lannisters in kings landing for all to see
I'm speaking of the first Rhaenys (Aegon the Conquers sister wife). Her dragon was killed in Dorne after the conquest. Here body was never returned to King's Landing.
rkwilli100 sorry realize that now,
I think Daenerys is the last Blackfyre, and will take a position in the final struggle for the Iron Throne that is meant to echo black dragons in the history, such as Visenya/Maegor, Rhaenyra/Rogue Prince, and Daemon Blackfyre. I would not be surprised if the real Daenerys died and was replaced with a Blackfyre bastard girl called Visenya.
Just in time for lunch! Thanks guys, watching now
I had never heard Sarella=Shae before. I can’t wait for more.
Love your channel. Keep the good work Awesome video so well thought out. You guys bring a practical view to the story
thank you so much...we'll certainly try
Oh yeah, good quality content right here!
It's always good for you guys to put things into perspective.
There was really nothing in there that i didn't know from other dips into martell history, but you're the first to put a proper perspective on it. They really are terrible. When reading the book it's hard not to empathize with them because they are experienced mentally via their most naive and selfish branches.
That's really the trick of game of thrones. Most of the pov characters are flat out crazy. Some of them are entirely wrong in ways that their own mind has thoroughly convinced them is right.
That is pretty much what it is to be a protagonist character in asoiaf - a rugged dogged self assurance that everything you are doing is right.
Every single character that we step into is the most self absorbed person basically oblivious to the grander story around them. C'est la vie.
Just yesterday I was checking to see if you guys had posted anything since the last vid,
sorry we made you wait
It’s like house of cards in ancient style, and with dragons
Love it!
I missed how does the pink marble indicate a tie in to the Ghiscari, it seems they tie in to the Rhoynar heritage, which should come as no shock.
there are three places built of pink marble...one was Ny Sar...the Water Gardens is another, which obviously makes sense, given the fact that Nymeria was from Ny Sar, but the third was Velos, which was an old Ghiscari slaving outpost...it seems to us that he decided to invent a tiny little Ghiscari slave-trading island and could have put anything on it, and he chose to put a pink marble city on it, knowing Nymeria's city was the other pink city...it could be nothing, but it seems like it's one of those seemingly innocuous details George uses to draw subtle parallels between seemingly unrelated things
Thanks. My problem was that I didn't recognize Velos and presumed it was one of those abandoned cities along the Rhoyne whose names all escape me.
The use of a fool in place of a champion is similar to Sir Walter Scott's "Ivanhoe" where a fool named Wamba smuggles himself into the enemies castle as a priest and allows his lord and master to escape dressed as a priest and took his lords place. Quite a noble fool.
that might have been where George got the idea, but the circumstances in which this fool went out there seem a bit different...they say this fool was "mad", which implies he had some sort of mental handicap, and they dressed him in armor and sent him out there to be slaughtered as a diversion so they could get away...that just doesn't sit right with me, especially with how proud they are of what they did...it underlines a very serious lack of respect for the value of human lives that are "beneath them"
Since when are guerilla tactics devoid of honor? Dragons 🐉🐉 🐉 burning folks is WAAAY more dishonorable then hitting and running when you are being bombarded by fire monsters!!!
Thumbs up as usual though.
I believe I called it dishonorable, but acceptable given the circumstances...I think that's accurate
Quenton Gilliam the thing is at least the Dragons fight you face to face and if a lucky AF archer hits a dragon in the eye its game over meanwhile with sneaking although acceptable its kinda like throwing sand in someones eyes in a fight like hey not cool face me when I'm at my best.
Lone Wolf if im being jumped by three big dudes, im throwing sand. (no pun intended)
Quenton Gilliam yeah but you know what i mean your going to be looked down upon by everybody else who thinks it was cowardly.
Not gonna lie, dorne is brutal- but if people invaded my country id take their hands to make sure they didnt come back. Id take both and consider them lucky thwy werent staked out in the sun with shade just out of reach. Its war. War is brutal. Cutting off hands is better than burning entire castles and armies.
Another excellent video, Greenhand!
I think your characterization of ice in the books is actually a bit off. You guys seem to think ice is unequivocally bad, while fire is unequivocally good. But I would actually place concepts like duty, honor, and order under ice's domain in the books. Doing things one doesn't want to do in order to better society, or simply because they are right, that's ice. That's why the Starks are the way they are. Yes, Ice also carries death with it, but fire clearly does too. The idea is a balance between them, so that Fire, and all its associated concepts which are good in moderation but can easily turn to vices, doesn't burn unopposed.
we used George's own words to make that determination...George said Fire is life, passion, etc, while Ice is betrayal, death and cold inhumanity...and I don't for the life of me understand why people regard the Starks as Ice...they live somewhere that's cold, but are the Boltons, Umbers, Manderlys, Glovers, Dustins, etc also Ice? it seems to me that they'd have a closer affinity for fire than ice given how cold it is there and fire is how they survive
The idea for balance would also fit with GRRM´s statement that he does not deal in absolutes / writes next to nothing (not always but almost) in simple terms of "good" and "evil".
I love your passion
OMG that is just what i needed... come home after a long day at work and find an unexpected portal to the Wolf's Den, my day is no longer a bad one :)
Very good to remind us the dark side of the Dornish!
I Love your series on Dorn! (And all your videos really) but I know you will Roll your eyes but I'm a show watched and have yet to read a ASOIF outside of F
Dunk and Egg book and it's awesome to see the actual side of Dorn we never got to on the show
Thanks for the video I can't wait for the next installment of this series!
Totally off topic, but do you plan on doing any more collaboration videos? I had a vision while I was napping at the base of a tree where you guys, PJ, Westeros History, LML and BryndenBfish all get on the same live stream and go over your thoughts on the first Long Night. But we all know what visions are worth.....right?
not sure...we'll likely do more with Quinn and Rawr in the future
An Order of the Green Hand video is out - Stop everything, watch, and enjoy... and then watch again.
That is one awesome thumbnail
Also #itsmellsdorneish in which maybe the mad king was racist but maybe also he wasn’t talking about the princess, more about a plot.
Liz Lee holy crap I’d read that story. I’d read the Rhagar takeover too. So many alternate versions of the war just hardcore alternate histories
Glad you all are bringing that content. Keep it up.
Great job. Thanks for including my thoughts about the water gardens though I’m sure you figured it out for yourselves as well.
Some do say that The Brave Companions might have been the Mercenary company that was funded by Prince Oberyn.
Chopping off the hands of captives was quite a common practice in the middle ages. AFAIK, even King Lionheart ordered it to be done before releasing the captives, who had been paid ransom!
A lot of the medieval violence can be explained by logistics. In that respect it's interesting to note that ancient Greece and the Roman Empire were far more organised and economically capable than any army of the dark ages and even many armies of the middle ages. Most couldn't afford professional soldiers and had to recruit peasants away from their food-production. This means that armies were smaller and the fraction of well-equipped and trained men was even smaller. Moreover, they had to supply themselves often by looting. Looting, murdering civilians and burning down settlements also significantly weakened the enemy regarding the size of army he could raise or the fraction of army he could use for attack rather than defending. Maiming enemies was even more effective than outright killing them, since maimed people couldn't fight, nor produce anything of value, but require food and help, thus binding further resources and demoralising the enemy.
This side of warfare reached it's peak in the 30 years war (well past the middle ages!) and was still seen in WWII: the Wehrmacht tried to conquer new territory in order to squeeze out money to pay back the debts. For the same reason the holocaust was organised. The winter war was a logical consequence, since the command couldn't wait for spring without giving the Russians time to recover while going bankrupt in the mean-time. Later, most of the captured Wehrmacht soldiers in Stalingrad died, mostly due to the lack of transport, heating and food, which was barely enough to support the Soviet army on its own. Moreover, both sides committed countless atrocities which sparked the desire for revenge...
While I am unfamiliar with the books, and I see no reason to disagree with the "tunnels" idea, I think a possible theory for avoiding detection from dragons, is to retreat into the desert (away from the ground forces) then hold yellow tarps over their heads & such for camouflage from the high flying dragon scouts.
Just an idea.
Just my 2cents regarding title Formatting: try putting the video title *before* all the other information about series and whatnot.
like this: "_Dorne Against the Dragons - Game of Thrones/ASOIAF Theories | Mysteries, Myths and Motives_"
Because the other way I cant even see it on mobile, also it makes it cleaner and easier to read at first glance
Woah, woah there. The presentation of Dornish as vicious and barbarians is obviously intentional from the maesters. From the text about king Gaemon Palehair we know about curious aspects about Dornish Law, which included not only gender equality, but also government social support for poor, general human rights, protection from domestic abuse and war veteran retribution. Gaemon try to implement these structures into his ruling, and is accordigly shunned for that in his chapter. His decrees were called "each more outrageous than the last" and as a "certainly work of Dornish whore named Sylvanna Sand, reputedly the paramour of the king's mother Essie".
So I call bullshit on that supposed "next-level brutality".
is there actually anything resembling evidence that Dorne actually does any of the things Gaemon ruled on? I've never seen any smallfolk getting fed by the Martells...there would likely be thousands of guys who were maimed at the Trident and none of them are in the Shadow City getting fed or cared for...on the flip side, we know that the Dornish lords competed with one another to see who was the best systematic dismemberer of the bunch...they killed people under flags of truce...the Ullers invite people to their place to talk about land disputes and lock the doors and burn the place down with those who came to talk to them inside...Lord Wyl cut thousands of hands off before returning prisoners of war...you can try calling bs, but the facts are on our side
AEGON could have been WAY more ruthless
Imagine if AEGON ordered salt to be poured all over Dornes fertile land (which there isn’t much)
If he wanted he could have had dorne be no more than Sand and castles with no fertile land
Let’s do this. Thanks for the great content guys.
I love to watch your videos, keep up the great work!
Dornish are my favorites,they were clever and brave and did care about their people. But more then their lives,they loved their freedom and the Dornish rulers were exactly like their people,when Deria Martell, Meria's grandaughter signed a peace treaty and war had finished,guess what, the dornish common people rebelled anyway and joined The Eagle to keep fighting the Targeryriens. Both Dornish rulers and people were smart and learned from the previous mistakes of Westerosi lords,this video keeps saying they didn't care about the people,they did and their people would've never forgave them if they bent the knee to keep their riches and comforts like the rest of the lords
Important question.. Who is the Mummer's Dragon?
Everyone assumes that means Young Griff but it seems like she is speaking of two different people. Beware the Mummer's Dragon. So.. who is the Mummer and who is the dragon?
I have so many theories on these two words. But I would love to hear what The Order thinks of this line. I've watched every video and I don't remember if y'all covered it or caught that it DEFINITELY means two people. This Dragon belongs to someone who is pretending to be someone who they aren't. Since Varys backs Aegon, could it be him?
Varys seems likely to be the mummer and Aegon is the dragon
The Order of the Green Hand Well that was easily summed up lol
I'm about just under half way through the video, but I was just wondering if you see the Martels as the firey sun seed in the water/ice side of the yin yang symbolism and the Starks as the icy moon seed in the fire side? Sounds a bit bananas, but I always saw the Martells as a kind of 'hot' house due to the sun symbolism they don.
How did the dornish know when they had to hide? I mean did they have contacts in targaryen host that informed them as soon as dragons took flight from King's landing? I mean if they weren't told about dragons leaving Kings landing then surely at least some of the dornish Lords would have been caught before hiding especially ones closer to the border maybe not sunspear but others.
Aegon: Bend the knee
Dorne: no i dont think i will.
Nor should they!
Andrew Peverell based
Let's do this!!!
The gets me hyped up for the Fire and Blood book later this year. It's no Winds of Winter sadly but seeing all the history play out in the pages will be hella interesting.All the kings, knights, dragons and battles are gonna be great to read.