Are Kingdom Death Monster Minis *That* Good?
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- Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
- Everyone's heard it. It's whispered in the streets and shouted off of roof tops: Kingdom Death Monster has great miniatures. But what does that mean? Are they better than all other board games? Does having to assemble them ruin the detail?
I'm here to investigate and discuss if Kingdom Death Monster minis are that good.
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16:45 real horns do get smoother further to the tip, so the sculpt is anatomically correct.
The artistic vision of the sculpts is incredible. But assembling the minis, especially the 30mm minis is often a pain.
Oh yeah that's very true. I feel that with the assembly sadly, the result is worse unless painted. When I fill in the gaps, prime and paint them you won't be able to tell, but I feel pretty bad for anyone who doesn't paint as the gaps and copious amount of lines sadly make it look a bit worse.
Personally, I like the assembly more than the painting, but I also like making metal earth models, so I may be a bit biased.
Definitely use Vibrant Lantern for building the more complicated figures. When it comes to the phoenix two of the tiny hands are mis-labeled on the sprue and fortunately the Vibrant Lantern build addresses this and is very thorough.
You didn't put the bottoms on any of the bases.......
I haven't glued them in is all (assuming you are talking about the tray that the base lays in) :)
As for Vibrant Lantern - yeah I guess I should have. I knew some of these hands just seemed wrong for the spot they put them in so that explains it. I used Vibrant Lantern for my Fade model and it was really nice so will use that in the future.
nothing beats the jumping 360 noscope snipershot pose. lol
Funny enough that's her online handle: xxX360_n0sc0p3Xxx :D
I think what this analysis is leaving out is the quality and originality of the art direction in KDM. The minis may be technically only pretty good, maybe not the crispest, but the concepts behind them just make them a cut above. Not to be overly critical but when I look at Hate I see the leather and straps fetish accessory thing pulled through on just about all sculpts. It’s like one idea. Well done, but one dimensional. KDM dares to be weird, with a wide range of influences in their sculpts. Will be remembered long after most have been forgotten.
That's a great point!
To completely hide those gaps on the bird creature without loss of texture, I think you would have to add more green-stuff than normally. Then sculpt the texture back in after the gap is filled.
My idea was actually to use Vallejo Plastic Putty. It's water based so what I could do is *hopefully* wet a brush and then just run it across the putty, adding texture.
Definitely do a video review on KD:M the game.
Were you using plastic glue? My Phoenix is pretty much gapless since the plastic melted together so good from the glue, though it took a bit of trimming get everything to dry fit nicely. The lion I had a few fitment issues with his face, leaving a bit of gaps and the back half where the legs had some issues mostly because they slide around so much, but it was the first model I ever put together so my inexperience might have led to some of this.
I didn't use my miniature glue because I wasn't sure how well it'd melt down this harder plastic. It works well though? If so I'll definitely swap to it!
It works really well! I use tamiya extra thin cement for the places I don't need too much glue or small places/pieces I need more control over like phoenix hands, the brush on it is very helpful. I use Testors liquid cement for big pieces. After dry fitting I was able to coat the wing tabs with Testors both sides and slide them in to the holes, hold it firmly and no gap. Only thing to watch out for is not to go too heavy on the plastic cement or it will spill out the seam, which if it does, do not wipe it or it smears detail wait till it dries and deal with it then. I have broken some parts on the slender man, and kingsman and with a little Tamiya extra thin on both sides was able to weld it back in place without you even being able to notice the damage. The only real tricky part is when you need to glue together two tiny parts of a forearm or that inner part of the butchers foot, that was a real bitch damn fat fingers! You get some time to work it out before it solidifies but it's a bit nerve racking. On tight pieces the glue also acts a bit like a lubricant helping tight pieces fit well. The little spiderlings legs are a tight fit even with lots of trimming but coating the hole they slide into a little made everything fit perfectly.
Also shout out to vibrantlantern.com it would have been so much harder to build the models without their build guide KDM has a official build guide now for most of the core box, but nothing else yet for the expansions, plus its very nice to see a few of the armor sets built to see a few options before committing to something.
Yeah...I should have used Vibrant Lantern for the Griffon
You get close to understanding undercuts, but I don't think you quite understand why they exist. For the Phoenix hands - any shape where there is a kind of "U" shape (and you address this a few times) means the piece cannot be removed from a mold when it hardens. Depending on how a piece rests on a sprue will determine if it can be removed without getting stuck and if another place piece is needed. The little hands that are a separate piece because the thumb would get stuck (usually) otherwise.
But the guy with the outstretched arm pointing with 1 finger doesn't? The very long and skinny fingers of the Phoenix's hands don't get stuck?
I'm no expert and I appreciate the information! I love learning about the process behind all of this stuff, but it still doesn't make too much sense to me. Why was that starting survivor's hair separate when the rest weren't? Why was his face-dagger separate when all the others weren't? Why was his thick waist cloth separate when his skin right arm could be attached to the same mold just fine?
I always figured much of this was A) to keep quality high and B) because if they released him in a single mold people would just assume it's lesser quality, even if the sculpt design doesn't require it.
@@TheKingofAverage I would start by reading this spyglassasylum.blogspot.com/2011/05/undercuts-and-what-hell-they-are.html?m=1
One of the things about Kingdom Death miniatures is that the lead does not want to change anything if possible from the sculpt to the production miniature. The hair separation exists, most likely, because the groove between head and hair was slightly too deep to make as a single piece where the others were not. That's how a lot of the decisions were made as to where to cut the minis. They were designed from the point of view of "will this look how I want" and not "is this easy to build"
Haha yeah I can see that :) When I prime and paint them they'll look great and you won't even be able to tell with most gaps, but yeah I can see that. It's definitely enacting the vision, regardless of how that ends up when actually building it.
I'll give that a read, thanks! :)
Well, to be fair, these KDM miniatures are from 2012 made by a guy who knew almost nothing about hard plastic mini production at the time. To compare them with 2019 HATE minis? Well, better compare with some of KDMs recent stuff :)
But from the consumer's perspective, I get it, you are still paying $400 for a box of minis and you don't care how old are they, you want them to be good :)
I'm so glad that came across well! That was my whole thing, that as a consumer it's still $400 compared to other stuff you can get. As for the minis, this is the 1.5 edition (2017 vs HATE 2018), if that makes a difference. The Archon and Mythic Battle minis I showed are from 2017 (delivered anyway) as well.
You aren't the first to mention that these core box minis have not really been updated, and that future stuff is better which is great to hear! It means my Gambler Chest (when I get it in 2027 most likely) will be great! :P
@@TheKingofAverage the minis themselves are from 1.0 though, so the 2012ish timeline still fits, at which point the game was $100 on Kickstarter. I definitely agree if the minis were updated as time went on, it would more closely match the price point, but I'd definitely agree some of the newer minis are WAY better.
@@TheKingofAverage , the good news is if you see some pictures of the Gigalion, the quality of the minis has gone WAY up.
But it would be nice if Kingdon Death could retool the core-boxnon-armor-kit stuff, yeah.
Yeah it'd be nice if they bothered to update the most common pieces that every single consumer will be using and that they are charging for in their $400 core box :P
The newer stuff breaks the comparison. It's not right to take a product that's $25 for a single 32mm miniature to a board game miniature that's $1 per mini. The fact that it's not 25 times as good though tells me the value of that extra detail is something you have to judge on your own and the point I was trying to make regardless. Are they great? Yeah they definitely are. Are they perfect? No. Are they worth the price? That depends on your wallet :D
@@TheKingofAverage, even counting the gigalion the newer stuff has all been promo-stuff at best and selling for the most part as singles. Echoes of Death is $60 for 4 high-detail minis, so just $12.50
It's not like KDM is a terrible price for what you get. Plus, Aeon Trespass is probably gonna end up at a similar price after the kickstarter fulfills, I think...
I would probably disagree about the “dynamic poses” bit, in that I think a lot of models are flying all over and it’s annoying sometimes. I think the KD:M poses are great. Everything else I pretty well agree with you on.
Hmm yeah I should have been more nuanced in what I said. I sort of alluded it in the video but have only really talked about it in other videos, but what I mean by dynamic is that the pose helps "tell a story" about the miniature. Subtly nuances like a turned head, or a hunched over back or even how the feet are planted can tell you a lot about that character. For instance, if the butcher was slightly bent with his shoulders down just a tad and the head lifted up, it could help perhaps tell a character trait/story of being busy with a hunt and seeing his new prey just arriving on the scene (you). If the King's Man had his feet slightly apart and knees a little bent, with his right hand outstreched, holding his staff in front of him and his left hand bent back a bit, both moving his cape back slightly there and placed on his sword, and his body angled just a bit toward the back it'd give a very good "you shall not pass" or "ready for a fight" post, as opposed to being almost exactly T-posed but with his arms down to the side like a stick :(
Did you happen to see the zombicide invader minis up close? I received my pledge last week and was amazed by the game mechanics. Although it is my first zombicide game and the minis dont seem to be as detailed as i'd hope from a cmon game.
They look great of course in their own right but after painting blood rage, getting the rising sun pledge and hate, and asoiaf, my expectations in mini quality kinda grew. But then again, its my first zombicide so I dont know if the quality was pretty standard for mass monster game or something.
Do you think you will have the opportunity to give some feedback on those? (I dunno if you backed it or not)
Yeah I backed Invader, though I live in the U.S. so I'm usually in the last group to receive KS's sadly :(
I'll definintely critique them. Zombicide has always been a bit more "mass market" in terms of quality which is a bummer, after HATE and ASOIF I was hoping they'd keep that quality bar that high.
If they had a cheaper version of the game without the models but included the presupported STLs for SLA 3D printing, I would buy it. The size can fit on my Saturn fully assembled but maybe 3 parts on a Mars.
I love KD because they pay their artists and sculpters a fair wage. One of the reasons they cost so much. I'm fine with paying a bit more to give back to the artists who gave me the great sculpts.
Ah that's awesome to hear! The "arts" are always so under-appreciated.
In addition, I would avoid comparing resin to plastic. Unless you're trying to make a point about how bad a resin cast is, then it's sort of like comparing children's fingerpaints to professional digital portraits. The difference in detail is always going to be immense.
Well I tried to frame this around options that a consumer like me or you have. If Archon is making a board game for $110 that has resin miniatures, then it's completely fair to put that into context with KD:M as they are both options for a consumer within the same range. The only one I showed that is not a direct competitor and therefore briefly shown as a "and trust me they get better" was the 75mm resin mini I showed. Everything else is just another board game from another game company (CMON, Mythic/Monolith, Archon, Modiphius and Ludus Magnus Studio).
@@TheKingofAverage I was mostly saying the large non-gaming resin.
But in other fairness, Mythic Battles and some of the others don't seem to have nearly as much card or board either. If it were JUST for minis I would reccomend them but the games themselves are quite distinctly different.
This isn't to bite on youre great review! Just putting out the Devil's Advocate as it were.
@@TheKingofAverage It is important to consider the cost of materials on that, and the risk of breaks and failures.
Vanguard of war minis are so cool looking! I'm waiting for them to come
The minis are FANTASTIC! I mean, really, really impressive.
Gap fill recommend: if you have a small gap try painting on some matt medium. It will flow into the gap and fill small/thin sections.
Oh interesting! I'e been using Vallejo Plastic Putty recently and have liked it but hadn't heard of actually just using matt medium.
Yes I would like to see more deep dives. Maybe tighten up the point by point focus and opinions a bit, it started out strong with the Hate minis but then it got a little muddy afterwards. Really enjoyed it.
Thanks for the feedback! I'll work on ensuring I have a good "plan" going into the next one then.
So having painted thousands of minis, including two sets of KDM, I will say some of their models are a bit inconsistent. The Butcher and The Hand both kind of suck. The poses are lame and the details are just okay. The starting survivors and the White Lion are excellent, the poses are good, the assembly is good, and the details are good. The phoenix is easily the best one in the core set; I would put it in the top 10 models I've ever painted. It has tons of interesting details, the pieces fit perfectly and it's just overall a fascinating model. The Watcher is pretty cool too, but it's so awkward to assemble and paint it's hard to appreciate it. The Screaming Antelope is okay, but you have to put pins in the legs or it'll eventually break off the base.
The armor kits are also a mixed bag. It's possible to make them look very good, but it's a huge amount of work, especially because you need to pose them very carefully to not have them look awkward.
The expansions' minis are quite a bit better than the core game. The Flower Knight is awesome, the Manhunter is also awesome, the Dung Beetle Knight is excellent. The Gorm is ugly AF and has a couple of ill-fitting pieces, but still a really interesting figure. The Sunstalker... same as the Gorm. The Dragon King is a bit goofy, like a kids' toy more than a fine scale model. For how big it is, it should really have more detail. The Lion God is just complete trash. It looks like a failed conversion and has one piece that needs lots of trimming to fit.
And then there's the resin kits... ugh! Yes, they do have some incredibly fine details, but the parts are so thin and so brittle, it's nearly guaranteed your model will get broken at some point. Just not really worth the hassle for a 10% increase in fidelity. If you think the core game stuff is hard to assemble, DO NOT go anywhere near the resins.
CMON's minis are an unbelievably good deal for how cheap they are. The quality you get for the price you pay is absolutely unbeatable. I am honestly surprised they didn't put Games Workshop out of business. I still prefer the sharpness of GW figures, but CMON isn't too far behind.
And just to give my comment some credibility, here are links to some of my painting: imgur.com/gallery/jCMUx imgur.com/gallery/aRMau
Just came across this comment - so sorry for the delay! Great job on your paintings! They are really great :D
I bought Fade for my wife and she's fantastic. I plan on painting her soon. I didn't user her here because I felt using a $25 single model is too apples and oranges to a HATE mini that cost me about 70 cents a mini.
Which is what I think you hit the nail on the head. HIPS is great stuff, it really, really is. You can do some fantastic work with it. But PVC/ABS mixed minis have come a LONG way in recent years and get you 80% of the detail for 5% of the cost.
All numbers here besides the $25 Fade mini were of course made up general figures :P
They are making parts for some reasons. First you can change the material. Second in injection you push the plastic in you mold and if your piece is to big the plastic will cool inside the mold and start to solidify before you finish. When you push this cooled materiel against the mold it will not fully take details. With tiny part the filling is faster, the cooling is nearly non existent and you can capture more detail. That is why Games Workshop produced models with cavities inside, you have less plastic, the layer is more thin and you have more detail. Also since the time needed to inject the resin is shorter with small part they can use harder material that cool faster but retain more detail.
Oh yeah I get why they are hollow for the most part, but didn't know it was directly connected to detail - that's neat!
@@TheKingofAverage I've forget to mention that cool down plastics have different properties that liquid plastic, that is why they don't capture detail (they are more ruber like). If you look at armor, plane ... model kit, part are very tiny and thin. And GW has reduced so much the thickness of their miniature in the past 10-20 years you can see the increase of detail. I will try to put pictures.
How injection is done:
ua-cam.com/video/RMjtmsr3CqA/v-deo.html
Ooooh thanks for the link I'll be sure to watch :)
KDM is bought because of the game not the minis. The minis are just a bonus and pretty unique in design. (also very old designs)
Yeah I got no problem with the core box value, you get a ton of stuff! I just don't think many are aware that they are actually buying minis from 2012 when they first get into KD:M.
Hey I love your video's! I was just wondering when you get a game with mini's as a painter do you first take into account mini quality or overall gameplay experience?
Well I'm also a board gamer :) I look at both! There's no point in me painting minis to a game I'll never play.
What I will say though, is that I tend to only spend money when there's both, and that's simply because I get so many more hours of enjoyment from it, while I play it and while I paint it. Double dipping like that is really great value wise!
@@TheKingofAverage Interesting...so how do you like KDM? I just re-watched your Nemesis review and like myself, you seemed to not be ok with overt randomness...I've played KDM, it is pretty random, unfairly difficult and you just might die for no good reason...My friend is all -in, and has painted a fair bit of it, gets the pinups whenever they come into the store...I try to change the topic whenever he tries to arrange a play-session ;p
HAH! :D So I've not played it yet. So far I just have it for the hobby, but have been trying to get a game session or two in just to see "how it is".
As for randomness, that's a tough one to pin down. If you view your villagers like dice then perhaps it's okay. That is, you have a lot of options but sometimes the dice will just roll blank. You aren't prevented though from rolling again (using another villager).
That being said you are right on the money of my issue. I want to play the game and the moment stuff happens to me that I have zero control over, the game is playing me instead and I don't like it. I always want to feel like I have some sense of control, that I can look back at a loss and say "if I had just done ____, then I might have won".
@@TheKingofAverage It's interesting how people enjoy different mechanics. I generally don't like games where combat involves a lot of positioning like KDM and even Gloomhaven. I tried really hard to enjoy Gloomhaven but I guess it's combat just isn't for me. On the other hand I really enjoy Nemesis. It certainly is unforgiving and quite random but I kind of like the fact that no matter what I do sometimes an alien's gonna burst out of my chest and the suspense of scanning for infection is fun. I go into Nemesis with the mindset assuming I'm going to lose so on the rare times I do win it's all the sweeter and if I die it's easy to just laugh it off because it was expected.
Yep it's great to have options for different tastes that's for sure! :)
Very nice comparison video. Thank you. I also resisted getting kdm, mostly because the value did not match the price for me...
It didn't for me either until I got it on the Black Friday sale they do every year. $250 is much easier to swallow than $400 :D
I imagine the black Friday sale is only on black friday right?
I can tell that the Hate sculpts were assembled piece by piece in the sculpting software and then booleaned/ welded together at the end. This creates a much more believable and crisp look to the gear and armor etc. subtractively sculpting between two separate pieces doesn't look nearly as good imo.
Oh interesting! Regardless, it came out EXTREMELY well. I was honestly quite impressed by them. I know how hard interlocked chains and chainmail can be, especially in softer plastic.
As it's come up quite a bit:
KD:M 1.5 - Arrived Nov 2017, $400
Mythic Battles Pantheon - Arrived Nov 2017, $99
Vanguard of War - Arrived Dec 2017, $110
HATE - Arrived Feb 2019, $120
Black Rose Wars - Arrived March 2019, $99
I don't think it is entirely fair to compare the retail price of KD:M (shipped) to the Kickstarter pledge price of the other projects (not including shipping). The KS price of KD:M 1.5 was $250 (plus shipping), and for that amount, I think the comparison, while still being expensive, seems more reasonable for what you get.
Adam Poots Games is kinda sorta updating the core monster models with the vignette line, starting with the Gigalion (and the rumoured Nukalope) so there is that... But that is yet another cost you have to factor in. :P
I was interested in KDM but I did my research and the game seemed poor and the minis weren’t all that. Plus its really expensive I bought the white boxes and they are nice minis but even they require serious hobby skills to get perfect you’ll need green stuff. I think massive darkness is great as are some others
Yeah that was kind of my thoughts on the mini quality, unpainted they look pretty bad because of all the seems everywhere. If you just assemble them and don't paint it's a big detractor.
19:12 What game is this miniature from? Thanks in advance.
Almost certain that's a Black Rose Wars mini.
Yep, That's a core box hero from Black Rose Wars by Ludus Magnus Studio.
Nice, too bad I wasn’t into miniatures boardgame yet back on 2015. I should say, a good one to grab for sure. Great to hear you got it for your collection. 👍🏻
They open up the pledge manage every Black Friday, and usually discount the core box to $250 :D - that's how I nabbed it!
The King of Average cool to know that, including the exclusive one too?
Nah, just the core box and backed the Gambler's Chest.
The King of Average Okay.. 👍🏻 do save some for later.. Aeon Trespass Odyssey & Ankh: Gods of Egypt 😄
Hah, Ironically I just read this comment after posting about AT:O :P
While I agree that the leaping sniper is a cooler sculpt than Zachary (starting survivor with the raised founding stone), it’s not fair to compare a schmuck to a hero. =) Thematically, the starting survivors should be weak and appear somewhat frightened.
Yeah, KDM isn’t the best out there, but they’re pretty damn good, with some of the most unique creature concepts and sculpts around.
Also a tad unfair to compare a 74mm resin model to mass-production hard plastic Phoenix, at least in terms of detail. Which is “cooler” is purely opinion (I vote Phoenix, because sci-fi models do nothing for me, heh). =)
Price... yeah, $400 is a lot, but the sheer amount of content is mind-boggling. You get a ton of plastic (large monsters and 8 unique survivors, along with sprue upon sprue of customizable survivors to make) and a game with incredible depth in an entirely unique setting. To me? Worth it. =) It’s still expensive, but you can’t argue with the quality of components either!
The fact that KDM is designed for the hobbyist probably had something to do with how cavalier they were with designing their sprue sand dozens of hands to insert into Phoenix wings. I’m not that level of hobbyist, so I’d have forgiven a slight softening of detail in certain areas to avoid that part of building, but in the end, it’s just something I can luckily accept.
I think the sculpt itself and the rule of cool is a big factor. You don’t see many standard board game minis being used in competitions like Slayer Sword or Crystal Brush, but you do see KDM (granted resin not plastic, but still... it’s the sculpt that matters).
Not the best, but yeah, top tier for sure. Just being able to say “top tier” from a board game (and not an exclusive resin line from an esoteric artist) is quite the claim. =)
PS, I REALLY hope to get my hands on the new White Gigalion. GOD I want that mini expansion SO bad!!!
I actually think Zachary is one of the more dynamic sculpts in the set pose wise. The Butcher is literally just standing there, same with the Smoke Knight, Lion, etc.
I wasn't trying to compare (actually, I felt there really isn't a comparison detail wise) between the 75mm resin and a mini in KDM which is why I only briefly showed it so we established that the bar just keeps going up in quality.
Agreed the core box is worth it (which is why I own it, and have backed the Gambler's Chest. Actually, for pure content reasons with the mini quality just being icing on the cake I feel any KDM "bundle" like the core and chest are great deals. I did say that at the beginning (and then spend 30 minutes being overly critical granted :P)
Completely agree with the "top tier" bucket. They are certainly up there, but I wouldn't say they are higher than the rest in that group, and that group is growing larger (thankfully for us painters!).
The Gigalion looks amazing! Though I'm unsure how I feel about him literally laying down :P
@@TheKingofAverage I'm actually more excited for the Gigalion's game quality than the miniature (which sits on a 100mm base!). What other board games you've seen are in the "top tier" bracket, exceeding KDM? I may have missed them as I've skipped almost a dozen KS in the past year, hah.
I'd have to rate by individual mini, but in general I find KDM poses to be kind of boring as they are mostly just standing there. I'd but Limbo Eternal War and Archon minis above KDM and a lot of that has to do with their poses. The recent Fallout Wasteland Warfare minis are cheaper, are resin with great quality, and have a lot more "life" in them sculpt design wise for my tastes. Celestial (the board game) is up there for me as well. The facial features on Nuwa alone are AMAZING at building a story into a sculpt which is something I really appreciate. Oathsworn as well looks very interesting sculpt design wise from what I've seen.
Of course everything is personal opinion and others (like you who don't really care for sci fi) will have different ones which is perfectly fine :) But most talk about KD:M like it's God's personal gift to miniatures and I just don't believe it's that cut and dry.
As for Gigalion - what's he do? I really need to get around to playing KD:M to see if I think I want to invest in more than the Gambler's Chest :)
@@TheKingofAverage Very true, I think us KDM owners take it more seriously because of the inherent craftsmanship, but also the time and money invested; call it digging our heels in. =) I'm eagerly awaiting Limbo, but haven't seen/looked much into the others. I think one thing I like about KDM is that the minis may have more stoic poses (aside from the non-game sculpts), but we tend to see them more as Statuesque... kind of like how a bust can be inherently boring, but oh so beautiful. I do like interesting poses and all, but mainly for board presence. When it comes to competition pieces I've seen, I kind of find a really dynamic pose (unless it's in a diorama) is kind of distracting... again I'm thinking of busts, hah (forgive me, I'm circling back to sculpting in my hobby rotation soon).
White Gigalion... The "Vignettes of Death" will all be small expansions. The Gigalion will be a one-off... it's not part of a campaign, it's a self-contained story/game in a single session! It comes with its own 4 survivors with their own gear, it has its own AI/HL/Resources decks, levels 1-3 like a normal quarry... but once you play it, you can permanently change your new or current campaign moving forward (new settlement location, gear, quarry, survivors[?], etc.).
It looks like it'll be a mid- or late-game monster you can fight as a one-off, having survivors that are properly built up/equipped to face it. It's almost like a boxed experience of Kingdom Death you can bring to a friend's place and not have to lug everything around. The prologue is cool and all, but to be able to see/experience some more interesting stuff as a self-contained experience? WANT!!! =)
Oh that does sound interesting! It sounds like a good way to spice up gameplay as well which is super helpful in the middle of a long campaign.
Considering I've seen people paint their KDM minis actually like stone, yeah I can see that :D
So this was just a setup for your AO campaign preview all along
LOL was it? :D
Dude! I really like your style and I like to watch your videos but if you are mean with Gloomhaven I'll send you a threat note myself! With mean looking words and all that!
Just kidding. Or am I?
Thanks for the video btw. I missed the whole thing with KD:M but I find that game very intriguing. For one, the price. I once read an article on internet that talked about the game and the 12 million dollars campaign and I still am amazed about what happenend there. The average amount pledged was around 600$ for a game that will take years to come at the backers' houses, I would have never backed that myself. Also everything I see is about the minis and the designs (wich are awesome if not a little on the soft porn for some) but I rarely hear about the gameplay. So now that you tackled the minis and showed that the competition is really doing something great in comparison, do you feel the gameplay and quality of the components (I remember from your unboxing that it looked top notch quality there) still gives the game its pretty high price tag?
AT:O really breaks this for me. I always used the excuse the the amount of game provided warranted a lot of the price tag, but with AT:O's price costing half of KD:M's Black Friday sale price it's making me hard to justify it.
I'll definitely need to do a comparison video at some point, ideally when the full AT:O game is delivered.
I will say that KD:M was AMAZING back in the day and is only "great" now, was ahead of it's time really. But today is today and consumer choice and iterative development have really improved things.
Of course the Gambler's Chest is really just becoming KD:M 2.0 at this point so that's something to consider as well.
Also I've never played Gloomhaven. Their mini quality makes me cry a bit lol
@@TheKingofAverage No question about the mini quality for Gloomhaven. At best they are "cute". The style is nice but not at the level it is today.
And talking about evolving quality on products, I'll say that Gloomhaven was also ahead of its time for the "story-telling", multiple paths and titanic game time and replayability (not story replayability but random scenarios replayability). It was not the first one but it brought something different and today its more common. Many games now are compared to the standard Gloomhaven brought. Justified or not.
Now, the game itself is teally awesome in the way you need to constantly adapt your style from your cards (that also are your stamina) and the ennemies. Dice Tower called it a "tactical puzzle". Great way to define it. When its your style its really great (I can spend a complete day with my wife to advance on the story or do some grinding for exp and gold) but if its not your style, well... Theres no dice also, so thats a bad thing for you 😛
Talking about AT:O, you only have 4 days to do the review of the prelude before the KS. You were able to complete your work on it? I know you teased some info recently but I'm really excited for it and its pretty awesome reward price!
And of course an eventual video to compare AT:O and KD:M would be nice but like we talked about, its hard to compare things that came out years apart. Technology, advances on gameplay styles and evolving tastes and demands from consumers change the whole industry. Its crazy right now vs what it was 5 years ago...
Well KD:M, much like Gloomhaven, for better or worse is what these games are compared to so I don't see the issue. What's hard is that KD:M is pretty much getting a 2.0 with the Gambler's Chest so that's really where the comparison would need to be. As it stands though, this new wave of games coming out have had years to iterate on what KD:M did, introducing a lot of improvements.
so minis from core game done in 2012 do not match current day minis. noted. What about KDM line from this year?
does it matter for the purpose of buying? KoA was talking from a consumer perspective, unless the Core game minis have changed, then the comparison is still valid. The cost is still valid for comparison as we are paying every dollar no matter what year they were made ;)
Yeah exactly. I bought this on Black Friday in 2017. Hate was from 2018 and the rest of the minis were from 2017. KD:M charges $400 for this. An all-in on Hate was $340. That's as comparable as I can get.
I'm not saying they are bad or anything, quite the opposite they are really nice! They just aren't the cat's pajamas is all :)
And comparing their $25 a pop single minis to a board game is far less equivalent. That's as fair as trying to directly compare my 75mm resin minis to KD:M.
I think KDM minis are very good but the best is the gameplay. Archon studio, right now, makes the best minis in the industry for the price, it is just not comparable, but their game design is not that good. I backed LOAD and I have the heroic minis, and I can say, I have never enjoyed more painting minis. Then I played the game and it was not good at all.
KDM makes weird miniatures with adult content. This guy is designing a nightmare world with no containment at all, show us penis, tits, ass... it is also appealing to many people who just dont care to see nude and sexual organs represented in a boardgame.
Yeah I'm *hoping* Chronicle X improves on the game front for Archon as they've said they tried to do with it. I got Vanguard of War and the minis are OUTSTANDING but the gameplay is meh :P
suckers for plastics. I am happy I did not pay the ugly expensive price for KDM, and the game mechanics isn't ground shaking for me. However..... I only got the pin-ups, and they are a seriously great to paint, display and work on painting skills. Again, a freaking pain to put together because KDM parts are just not given any after thought to piece together. For such a price.... for that game..... No for me. It's not worth it. But I said I got the pin-ups right?.... Yeah...but i did not pay KDM's crazy shipping and retail prices for it. I got it just cheaper like 100% more cheaper than their stores. LOL.
Went with the bootleg versions?
You know, I know bro.
sounds good to me see as postr new
Wish KDM came preassymbled :( daunting for a first timer.
Or at least the first few minis should be super easy to put together right? :D
Good video but is a different animal with the time that they were manufactured... and just wait until you are trying to assemble the watcher
I heard he's the hardest! I'll be sure to pick a day where I'm already frustrated to build him :D
This is the 1.5 edition bought Black Friday 2017. All the minis I compared them to except Hate were also from 2017 :)
@@TheKingofAverage the molds/ sculpts havent been changed or updated since release you'd have to go to a newer sculpt like dragon king to make more of an apples to apples comparison. Not gonna fault the hate minis they are good!
That's not really Apples to Apples though as at that point you are comparing a $25 single mini (or more) against a board game mini that often breaks down to less than $1 a mini. It's definitely in a weird space and easy to get trapped comparing too high or too low. Hopefully I was able to show a wide enough variety but definitely a tough nut to crack :) - The Dragon King Expansion isn't "too bad" at $25 a mini, assuming all priced equally. In all actually the smaller minis are closer to $10 each, making the dragon $65 which is fairly on par with their other larger minis price wise. Still about five to ten times as expensive as a typical board game mini. As a consumer you gotta judge if that price difference is justified or not. For some it will be, for other's not so much.
The larger groups though (core and gambler's chest) are a no brainer though for me. Price ends up being about $2 a mini which is crazy considering the quality level and game content that's not even considered in that price breakdown.
@@TheKingofAverage very true we are living in a weird time for minis sonetimes its rasier to thnk back on when GW was the only quality kid in town...
The amount of general improvement across the industry even in just the past year is astonishing really. Kids won't remember the dark days of miniature gaming :D
Aside from the cost per mini for KDM, you should also factor in the time required to assemble this stuff. That’s one reason that turned me off to backing KDM is I don’t have the time not the desire to assemble the minis. So, that’s another “cost” to consider. Why pay more for a game that’s technically incomplete? No, thanks. I can find better minis elsewhere, for less.
Yeah it's SUPER time consuming! The Pheonix took me hours alone O.o
And because they are in so many pieces there are seems everywhere, meaning if you don't paint them they look kind of dumb :(
That plastic on the KDM minis look more translucent than normal. I wonder how the detail would look with a matte primer sprayed on it?
They are definitely a lighter grey than most hard plastics like ABS and resin, at least from what I'm used too. They'll paint up extremely well I'm sure.
They are great quality for sure. But to assume they are on a pedestal above all others isn't really accurate either.
Are u attending gencon this year?
Sadly no :( Planning on attending next year though!
Considering it takes a couple grand (me + 1 other for camera work for 5 days ends up being a lot) I do have it as a Patreon goal, but it's a few pegs away :) I was going to fund most of it with my own money but RL work didn't align well with those dates until it was right there, and at that point it's over 2 grand just to fly there :P
So, I'll put in for the time off plenty early next year, and if somehow I do hit that goal on Patreon I'll just have to go to Essen or something too :D
To be fair you are comparing the butcher to something 5 times larger than he is. Of course the detail is going to appear better on a larger model...
Good point! While it's not nearly 5 times, I'd argue that the softer material of PVC compared to the HIPS plastic should equal out any discrepancy.
The larger issue I found out after this video thanks to other awesome commentors is that these minis from the 1.5 core box are still the exact same that they were from 2015, meaning I'm comparing 2015 miniatures to 2019 miniatures. While they still charge $400 for the box so as a consumer it doesn't matter that it's manufacturing hasn't changed since 2015, that can indeed represent a change. I imagine in 2015 these were OUTSTANDING, the fact that they are still top tier (minus I'd argue somewhat in overall sculpt design) is amazing. That being said, these are the bread and butter of the KD:M experience and the first piece of it anyone will interact with. So they are fantastic, but they aren't God's gift to miniature board gamers either anymore, at least not the core box minis :)
Good call on the size thing though, should have tried to find another 32(ish)mm miniature with the same design points I was trying to show there.
DRAFT, UNDERCUT. MY DUDE......WOULD YOU LIKE TO INTERVIEW ME? I CAN EXPLAIN....HIPS, RESIN, METAL....
Yeah, that's a little annoying. I learned that stuff with about 15 minutes of google, years ago.
I am not exert at assembling but i didnt have any problem while I did my KDM minis. Everything went very smooth without gaps, but I lost a hand from my phoenix :/ So there is an empty spot. I dont believe KDM is expensive because of the minis. it is expensive because its offering ton of gameplay with an innovative way! By the way check the new models they have at gen con!
Haha I lost 3 and spent a solid 20 minutes combing through my carpet to find them :D As for fitting in perfectly, I don't see that being the case, but perhaps you are better than you claim lol.
Totally agree about the price of the core box, like I said in the video I'm not saying it's a bad deal as you get a ton of gameplay and "stuff" out of it - not just miniatures. I saw their update for the Gambler's Chest and the stuff looks great!
Ha ha . I appreciate the effort but you need to realize the viewer can't see the figures well when you are waving them around. You camera needs to be closer or better to see the detail you are speaking of. I feel that you should never say what something is not, but what it is. Thanks for your evaluation.
Yeah my camera work in general needed improvement around this time - I had just gotten a new camera and was learning the ins and outs (such as not to ever use auto focus on it lol). Thankfully I feel like I've improved both in the practical filming but also the technical side of it - I appreciate the feedback and putting up with the video :P
Looking back, this whole video could be more focused. All I'm really saying is that the $400 purchase of KDM gets you amazing miniatures (and a game) of 2012, not 2019/20. Their newer stuff looks fantastic and the fact that this still holds up after all of these years means in 2012 they were absolutely incredible. PVC/ABS has come a LONG way since 2012 and has really shrunk the gap between them.
People hear "Oh KDM minis are top tier fantastic, they'll blow your mind" but really at this point that's the new stuff (looking forward to the Gambler's Chest) - consumers might be a bit bummed out when first getting into it if they are expecting the minis here to match their current year expectations.
On a side note, I'd love to see Poots revisit and update the core box minis. In the end, they are the only part that everyone will interact with so ideally it's kept more-or-less in line with the presentation Poots wants to bestow upon the players :)
I don't like how its made in China. Don't trust the true quality/safeness of the plastic...I'd much rather pay more for it to made elsewhere like GW. Once it's not made in china, I'd consider.
The quality control honestly seems really good with KD:M so that's good!
No. End of story. I have the game, it's overhyped. The market has caught up.
Haha you'd make a much shorter video than I did :D
My understanding is KDM has upped their game with later releases, but those aren't comparable at all when they are $25 for a single mini. As it stands their core game (1.5 shown here) is this quality, and $400 so it's safe to compare to many "all-in" miniature board games now.
Game is far from perfect, but don't know about which part you are talking about. Minis wise? Because minis wise they have probably best minis in Boardgames industry, and one of the better ones in stuff compared to like GW. Don't compare old stuff, though some expansions are also still very much excellent! But new expansions, which you have plenty of stuff in updates and from GENCON look amazing!
I only consider game play minis, and game play. If you include non gameplay minis, there are amazing sculptures out there that crush KDM.
I had no idea the minis were not put together already...
hahah oh man yeah they are in a ton of pieces. You should see that unboxing! You get a whole box full of sprues, like 20 of them! Gotta build them before you can play.
@@TheKingofAverage Yeah, you would have had a BIG surprise if you got it then opened the box to learn and play :). It almost happened to me with Shadows of Brimstone, but it had been on my shelf for so long it was too late...and so I went and bought the rest...-_-...KDM is insane, my friend had me sanding for hours!
Hah! Funny enough in my intro for the KD:M unboxing it's me showing the mountain of SoB minis I was busy building :P
@@TheKingofAverage I had zero clue, I just collect crawlers so..yeah, I bought it one day at the store without knowing what it was (this was before my kickstarter phase...I hope is a phase, I can't take it much longer). One day I saw a play-through video and decided hey, let's get this baby punched....then was hit in the face with a pile of sprues. It is the only game I own that requires this level of assembly, I had to draw the line at that and it helps with the spending ;)
Oh man, well SoB minis are WAY easier than KDM minis (then again, so are Games Workshop, Modiphius, and every resin kit I've ever received. KDM are stupid level assembly. 51 PIECES! 51! *grumbles*
I think KDM sculpts are just dated. Technology is better today, and they can make better miniatures with less price.
That's what another viewer was saying, that they've since improved from their 1.5 core box which is good to hear!
@@TheKingofAverage But this just doesn't justify the high price. Those miniatures could cost more before, but they should lower the prices now.
Well it probably costs the same to print them regardless but it'd still be nice if they at least updated these since EVERYONE get's them.
Very overhyped minis. The whole thing with KD is it’s “boutique” status. Which coincides with the ridiculous prices. This garners the elitism of the “cult of Poots” who attack with great viciousness anyone who dares criticize anything seen as “negative” (god help you if you dare to question the constant setbacks to releasing new content on the Kickstarter).
The sprues make no sense. There is no reason whatsoever for the survivors forearms to be in two halves. The hands are big and goofy.
Way too many spots that need green stuff. Especially when you factor in the price. Other companies have surpassed these minis in quality at a much lower price.
Heck, even the Chinese and Russian recasters make KD models that 1 look just as good as the real models and 2 are cast in much more practical pieces, requiring less assembly yet looking just as good.
I would love to see you do a KD or Gloomhaven “is it any good” video.
15:52 Do you know the name of that specific Hate figure? I need to get my hands on that!
He's the Um'Cordu Prince and yeah he's amazing :D Was one of the free stretch goal minis too!
The elitism is defiintely something I recently discovered after this video. Even if the detail matches or beats it some people apparently won't "touch" filthy PVC minis. *eye roll*
The assembly thing I feel is makes these actively not good when unpainted. There are seem lines upon seam lines and the only minis I've seen where there isn't even an attempt to make them follow the natural flow of the sculpt.
And then of course there's the interesting design, married to very lackluster poses. I can see why so many people paint them as statues. For the most part it's just the cool design mini standing there. The starting survivors are ironically some of most dynamic sculpts of the lot.
Great quality in general, but far below the hype I feel they have following them. These are 2012 minis though, will be interesting to see how the Gambler's Chest turns out whenever they are released (2027 I assume).
The King of Average I appreciate your optimism giving it a 2027 release. I recently had the audacity to poke fun on the KD Facebook group at yet another 1 year delay for wave 3 and two year delay for wave 4. I had members curse at me, call me names and tell me to “sell my gamblers chest because I don’t deserve it”.
Disturbing. But I knew the majority of KD fans are “paypigs” who are quite content to support Poots financially as he takes his sweet time. I know he’ll more than likely provide a nice product to his backers, but enabling him to get around to it whenever he feels like it (he admits to taking breaks to do other stuff-I don’t fault him for that- but I think the problem is when he “takes a break”, production at the office grinds to a halt). At what point is enough enough? If I’m buying a game, I expect to get that game in a reasonable amount of time. Reasonable is subjective but to me, it’s no more than a year delay after it’s promised. When you get to 2 years, 3 years or longer (which is waves 4 and 5 in this case); it doesn’t matter what “extra freebies” come with it. I think it’s Poots promising a bunch of extra stuff because he completely mismanaged what he wanted the gamblers chest to be.
Also the ridiculous lack of communication. We had to wait I think it was 8 months til gencon arrived for him to announce the 1+ year delay. Oh well, enough griping. I have other stuff to paint.
The King of Average and ONE more thing. Poots can’t be bothered to provide updates to the Kickstarter backers who gave him close to 10 MILLION dollars, yet those Kingdom Death Store emails have no problem being sent to me every other month.
Imho, Games Workshop still makes the best miniatures in the market!
While I find many of their sculpt designs to be pretty generic (again part of it is the problem of having to stand on a flat base, and there are some standouts for sure) but the detail level is always there. Out of all the GW minis I've bought I never had an issue like I saw with the starting hero's foot where the detail gets kind of soft.
The King of Average I agree with the lack of crazy poses from GW but their level of details is insane and they are really hard plastic. Mantic has also started upping their game
You'd think 2019 people would stop trying to compete with Warhammer and make fully assembled minis😑
Shush. This is a botique product, specifically meant for people who like quality and detail. As a painter I love disassembled minis. So no, KD is not "competing with warhammer" they are catering to an audience.
@@yipyipyipi Pre-assembled models are easier for disabled people (like me) to play right out of the box
@@LeeroyPorkins then buy those? Or ask a friend for help.
Assembled is easier for anyone to play with right out of the box. Disassembled is cheaper, which KD needs as they pay more to their artists (something I fully support) so they need to reduce price so the models aren't completely out of anyones budget.
Fact is, there are multiple demographics, and the fact that there is a disabled demographic doesn't mean companies should stop catering to the artists and other demos. I support companies that cater to disabled, especially in video games where it is incredibly easy to do if they start development with it in mind. However I also support artists, who are normally underpaid. Can't have your cake and eat it too, but you can support multiple companies.
@@yipyipyipi I had help with Monsterpocalypse 2.0 which made me frustrated (maybe MonPoc is just bad) I don't mind that there are games with unassembled minis, it's only frustrating when they make really cool board games (Elder Scrolls) with assembly required.
@@LeeroyPorkins I can understand that it would be frustrating. I know a few people who have avoided buying games they otherwise wanted because there was assembly required. I get it, I just don't think it's right to say something like "it's 2019 let's not do unassembled minis anymore". I prefer them unassembled, and I may be in the minority, but that's why I am willing to pay more for what I want. I understand that wanting the unpopular option is more costly sometimes.