TF2's Abandoned Class
Вставка
- Опубліковано 25 бер 2023
- Tf2 is clearly a game where updates would salvage many of the issues players have, but which class needs it the most? Additionally, when will TfTubers come up with some interesting ideas? Today? Tomorrow? Zesterday? Who knows.
#tf2 #tf2heavy
![[TF2] The Worst Class That's Not BLU Engi](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/b5LZP4d8sTA/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] The Worst Class That's Not BLU Engi](/img/tr.png)
![[Tf2] The Shotgun Difference](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/lvPMTCDLO3w/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] Kritz Always Sucked](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/H0wdj8A-bII/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] Weapons and How to Do Counterplay](/img/n.gif)
oh
omg it's the heavy from team fortress
omg it's the heavy from team fortress
omg it's the heavy from team fortress
omg it's the heavy from team fortress
sandvich
As someone who's visited Valve's offices, I know that the first thing every employee sees when they reach their floor and step off the elevator, is a large sillhouette of Heavy holding a Balloon on the wall. I understand not every employee works on this game or likely could if they even wanted to. But it's insane that with all the love they seem to have for their IP's, they seldom show it anymore.
I once tried to convince Valve to replace the Heavy's silhouette with a picture of my pet iguana. They didn't seem interested, but that's okay. I still love my little Iggy
@@cibervader I love this
the problem is valve's business model (the video might mention this, im still at the beginning) as long as you're there and working, you get paid. employees get to pick their own projects. so, obviously, everyone is gonna want to get VR on their resume and nobody is going to want to work on a 15 year old hat simulator
@@acuteavocado1962 aye and from what I’ve heard in interviews there’s an extreme amount of internal conflict that makes it incredibly difficult for them to get anything out.
@@acuteavocado1962 no, they want to, you dont really "choose" what to do, if you are doing something not profitable enough, like tf2, you're fired
The reason heavy has a shotgun is that early on in tf2, revving used to be a lot slower, to the point that getting caught unrevved by anything but a medic or revolver spy was a death sentence for a heavy if they tried to rev up, so the shotgun gave him a weaker option that he could use when getting ambushed
Exactly what I was going to say. Kalakaua is really showing off how little he knows of TF2's history. Hell, you could argue that before Jungle Inferno that Pyro was in a similar, if not worse, position to Heavy because flames didn't work how they were supposed to. Kaluka's ultimate point is correct, but not knowing his history hurts his argument.
I still think the Shotgun has that use in modern TF2, Just not as pronounced nor anywhere near as necessary as it was back on launch.
@@neptuniamarina4924 i agree. It's actually why i equip the panic attack instead of a sandwich when in casual lobbies or in mvm. Being able to get the super scouts that got past your team without having to rev up is huge
@@neptuniamarina4924 yea shotgun is suppose to be used when in combat without being revved while melee is backup for when your clip runs out
@@neptuniamarina4924 unless you're using the Brass Beast, its pretty necessary
I think the single shotgun was more born out of TFC and how both shotguns acted as secondarys, since the game is pretty much a TFC remake at its core.
it's a sequel to quakeworld tf actually
@@maximyllion right, and tfc is a remaster/soft remake of qwtf, making tf2 a sequel to both and gameplay wise a remake of the most direct previous game in the series, tfc.
Oh really? Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then, unless you want to take this outside and settle it like real gamers. My money's on the guy who knows how to strafe jump.
Nobody uses the single shotgun in tfc.
oh my god, Team fortress 2 the dedicated sequel actually mimics its predecessor?
I know the "Heavy needs an airdash" thing was a joke, but making him into a sort of sidegrade demoknight could be a decent way to give his melees more use. I'm picturing a short-ranged tackle that launches back whoever's in the way to defend your teammates or an objective, but that can be spaced out properly (using the same positioning skills he already works on) to let you start punching as soon as it ends and take advantage of the eviction notice's attack speed or the warrior's spirit's healing without having to worry about closing the gap on your enemy first
yes
If we're going to argue about giving the Heavy an airdash, we first need to define what we mean by 'airdash'. Are we talking about a sudden burst of air propulsion that allows the Heavy to travel short distances? Or are we talking about a more sustained flight ability that allows him to soar like an eagle? Only then can we truly debate the merits and drawbacks of this proposed change. After all, as the great philosopher Plato once said, 'The first step in wisdom is to admit that you don't know everything.
He should have gloves where when he accelerates when he runs but loses turn speed/maneuverability
Heavy I think is too slow to be a melee focused class.
and if you take away his slowness its not even really heavy anymore, plus his minigun is already basically the best weapon for close range.
Like the charge he does in the Spy trailer, but... not with quite as much range, and a lot more speed lol.
The shotgun is pretty good for escaping while doing damage or dealing damage while positioning. Helps against spies and is amazing for when you don't have time to rev up.
It's not his best item, self healing on demand is by far the most powerful tool he can have but it's not bad at all.
While the shotgun may appear to be a useful tool for the Heavy in certain situations, we must consider the broader philosophical implications of relying on such a weapon. Does it not represent a failure of imagination and creativity on the Heavy's part, to resort to a mere firearm when confronted with a challenge? Shouldn't we be encouraging our Heavy to explore more holistic approaches to problem-solving, such as meditation, yoga, or interpretive dance?
@@cibervaderDoes it represent a failure of imagination and creativity to give 3 other classes the same shotgun?
@@cibervader stop trying to outsmart bullet
As someone who has a Collector's Warrior's Spirit, I would be all for it gaining lifesteal.
Warrior's Spirit with HP on hit and HP on kill would make it better.
I would also make it a fast swinging, 30% less speed and minicrits are crits and no random crits would also make the Bear Claws better.
Warrior spirit already has lifesteal
@@btcbuster5556 on kill, if it has both on hit and on kill it would be even better. plus my suggestions to make it more awesome. With both heal on hit and heal on kill, you have a melee that heals you, with minicrits are crits, the Steak combo is obvious, but also against Mark for Death, Jarate and Buff Banner situations.
@@drivanradosivic1357 i was replying to bokatrice not you
What?! Lifesteal on the Warrior's Spirit? That's ridiculous! Why bother hitting your enemies when you can just suck the life force out of your teammates? That's true teamwork!
Heavy has a Shotgun because his original designed he was much slower. The brass beast was basically default Heavy. So the Shotgun had a purpose.
He now has the lunchbox items so it doesn't really matter. Some classes are harder to balance, so they get less weapons. Classes like Scout, Soldier, and Pyro are easier for the devs to balance new weapons for. That's why they have a lot of weapons compared to classes like Heavy, Medic, and Engi, which are harder to balance weapons for, so they have less options because of this.
the community decided to work on pyro rather than heavy as a popularity vote was conducted which lead to jungle inferno. thtas why heavy has the second banana, a pity weapon for getting second.
@「my mop」 ーー○≡ I mean true but also one of the three weapons Pyro got is totally useless outside of MvM and the jetpack is pretty rare to see anyways
@@mymop4422might I remind that it was not a popularity vote, rather it tallied the score you got as votes, a pretty idiotic system, considering the team for the weaker class more in need of a rework are more stocked with the weaker class
@@nikodemruta7686 it was a popularity vote. I personally voted for heavy in the meet your match update. I searched it up and Pyro won 56% to 44%
@@mymop4422 again, it is score based, you join the preferred team and score to gain points for that team
The reason shotgun works well on Pyro is that it gives them a solid backup option when flames won't do the trick, without negating the Pyro's weaknesses (namely their range). The shotgun can round out the shortcomings of the rocket launcher because Soldier is this game's "balance" class: he needs to do a bit of everything. Pyro having two powerful short range options that work well with each other (especially in 2007, when any fire damage always resulted in max afterburn) helped cement their role as an ambushing close-quarters king.
Well it was supposed to. Pyro kind of sucked until they got airblast.
The thing is that the shotgun still is the best pyro weapon against a vaccinator or a pyro
Pyro vs pyro matchups can also be swung by the shotgun; I'm a pyro main, and if there's more than one enemy pyro I can often outdamage them with a shotgun. It's not bad for getting chip damage beyond the flamethrower's range either, which can make the difference between killing somebody with afterburn or letting them get away with 10 health. Two decent shotgun shots from just beyond flame range can still do a good 30-ish damage.
I think in general though Pyro has an identity crisis in terms of role. If he's supposed to be the ambushing close-quarters king, how does he compare to Scout and Spy? Even though Spy is weak in general, Spy can instant-kill any class in a close-quarters ambush. Scout's mobility lets him flank easier than Pyro can, and can chase down failed ambushes easier.
As a result, you will see Pyro at higher levels of player not playing as an "ambush king" but moreso like a utility support class. Denying ubers, checking for spies, reflecting rocket and grenade spam, catching snipers on fire with flare spam, etc.
@@iminumst7827
And then he completely disappears even further up, because the other classes do the various tasks support Pyro does better. Except for spychecking, that instead gets covered by just everyone actually bothering to do their own spychecking.
If I was redesigning Heavy, I'd give him a fourth slot for Soldier's banners.
Heavy often serves as a point the rest of the team rallies around during pushes, so allowing him to support those teammates and incentivize them to push together would greatly benefit the class's gameplay loop.
I would also swap out his stock shotgun for a slug shotgun that fires projectiles.
This would give the weapon a utility for hitting opponents outside the minigun's range, and give Heavy a way to counter bullet resistance.
why not give everyone a slot for utility items on slot 7?
I think that the buff to the stock fists could be that the eating animation to the lunchbox items could be like 20% faster because trying to eat with someting like the fists of steel should not be as fast as eating it with your bare hands
While I appreciate your enthusiasm for the shotgun, I must respectfully disagree. As we all know, Heavy is the most powerful class in the game and therefore does not need any additional weapons or abilities to be effective. In fact, the mere suggestion that he does shows a lack of understanding of the game's mechanics and the Heavy's inherent superiority.
@@cibervader | On the contrary, I'm a game designer who's written multiple essays on TF2's game design. Analyzing the game's balance is something of a hobby for me.
My reasoning behind the slug shotgun is simply that if you MUST give Heavy a shotgun, it needs to fill a role distinct from his minigun to warrant its existence. It doesn't need to be particularly strong, it simply needs to do something his minigun cannot. Of course, the fact that Heavy has ANY shotguns to begin with is unnecessary, the slug is simply the direction you'd want to take it if you were forced to. Otherwise, lunchbox and support items would be (and SHOULD be) the way to go.
@@PotatoPatatoVonSpudsworth, thank you for sharing your expertise and insight on the game design of TF2. I can see now that my previous comment was made out of a lack of understanding and appreciation for the game's balance. Your point about the importance of giving Heavy a distinct role with the slug shotgun makes perfect sense. I now realize that my previous statement about Heavy being the most powerful class was a shortsighted view and did not take into account the value of diversifying gameplay experiences for different classes. Thank you for expanding my perspective on this topic.
I think a good side class for heavy would be to allow him to put lunch box items in his primary slot as well. Having a lunchbox in your primary weapon slot would increase heavy's base movement speed to be around a soldier. This would allow fat scout to have a health kit whenever he wants while also making him slightly faster. This would also allow heavy to have 2 lunch box items for melee heavy. Parring the buffulo steak and chocolate bar would give heavy a very fast movement speed and a lot of health. This combo could let him go on a spree with the KGB.
Maybe some new primary lunchbox items that are essentially fat-scout focused food. and more shotguns.
we just need a 4th slot for all this new stuff, there is too much bloat at at item arsenal
That is an amazing suggestion
This is entirely based off of fat scout. I LOVE IT
I mean, it's even shown in the Meet the Team video to ahve both a shotgun and a Sandvich.
Your mention of Heavy having a minigun that's harder to use gave me an idea.
In Timesplitters 2 (basically the console version of TF2 before console TF2 existed), the minigun started off shooting rather slowly, but its bullet output (and, thus, its damage) increased over time. However, it also had an overheat meter; if you kept firing the gun nonstop, the meter would quickly fill up and the gun would burn itself out, forcing you to let it cool down a bit before you could rev it up again. This would obviously be a major issue if you were in a prolonged fire fight, so you'd have to fire the weapon in short bursts and keep it from overheating in order to get the most DPS out of it without it suddenly going tilt on you at the worst moment.
This seems like something that could be worth exploring as a Heavy primary option. Hell, the Huo Long Heater seems custom-designed for this sort of job. Get rid of the ammo-devouring M2 drawback and replace it with a meter. Have the thing start off only about as strong as the Tomislav, but with the ability to ramp up to be stronger than the Brass Beast if you keep firing for several seconds straight. The trade-off is that the meter filling all the way causes the Heater to forcibly spin down and it can't be revved back up until the meter drains again. Just for fun, have the Heavy catch on fire too when the gun overheats. Have any class that he touches while on fire catch fire as well if you really want to keep the useless Spy resistance gimmick that everyone just jumps over right now anyway.
I have lots of other shitty ideas, too. Give the Heavy's stock Fists a shove mechanic like the Shortstop has. Make it like 3 times as strong just for the hilarity of it. Or give him something to help his synergy with Medics. Since Day 1, Valve has tried their best to push the OP Heavy/Medic combo thing despite Soldier/Medic and Demo/Medic usually being the superior option. Give him a primary that goes absolutely cuckoo when he gets Ubercharged. Maybe it gains crits while the Heavy is Ubered. Maybe it lets him scare enemies that he gets within a certain range of. I don't know. I'd just like for Ubered Heavies to be scary again instead of being Pyro tennis fodder.
Wow, that sounds like cancer. THe miniguns already increase in damage as you rev them.
@@vyor8837 Do they increase in speed and accuracy the longer you fire them as well, Johnny Jerkoff?
@@vyor8837 actually, their damage is halved for one second while revving up.
@@Anderson-kg5ex in other words damage increases for them by 50% after 1 second of ramping up.
@@DaRkLoRdZoRc why would they? One of the tomislav's differentiating factors is being more accurate.
Meat vs Match was a supremely unfair event for the community, actually it was genuinely an ultimatum.
We had to choose between fixing the broken & unfair mechanics of class A, and remembering that class B hasn't been given any Christmas presents for the past decade. That's genuinely all that was on display for Heavy. Not that he also needed some fixing & reworking, just that he vaguely deserved something to reach a standard.
The final segment was spot on. TF2 content creating is like Hotel California...you can check out any time you like, but you may never leave.
would be cool if you could perhaps do combos with heavy's fist which would make him attack faster or do more damage. I mean you can already control which fist swings with right and left mouse click why not make it usefull
I can get behind that. Maybe have one fist swing slower but hit harder like a haymaker and the other swing faster but less damage like a jab. Maybe give him simple combos depending on the order and timing of punches.
lol give him Zangief's spinning lariat on both buttons or a ground pound
I've always been of the opinion that Heavy needs a 4th weapon slot, so that he can have a shotgun, and a lunchbox.
This is the only thing that Heavy needs
Agreed. With any minigun, the heater especially, you can pretty easily run out of ammo, this becomes even more the case when there isn't an engi on the team, or there are little ammo packs in the map or nearby. The shotgun gives you a backup for this, but what if you have your tasty sandvich equipped? You're not getting far if you don't have the GRU or eviction notice for a melee.
why not give everyone a slot for utility items on slot 7?
No.
god the editing on this is so amazing and surreal. good job!
Ty!
Editing is just a fancy way of saying 'using a computer to fix all my mistakes.
@@cibervader im pretty sure editing just means editing.
@@mayoplayingwumbologistmd4389
I would like to take a moment to apologize for my comment on the video's editing. Looking back at what I wrote, I realize that I made a mistake by suggesting that editing is only used to fix errors made during filming. My comment was not only incorrect, but it was also dismissive of the time and effort that goes into the editing process.
As someone who has a genuine interest in video production, I should know better than to belittle the importance of editing. Without editing, a video would lack the finesse and polish that we have come to expect from high-quality productions. Your correction was a reminder that I still have much to learn about video production, and I appreciate you taking the time to correct my mistake.
In the future, I will make sure to do my research before making comments on a topic that I am not fully knowledgeable about. Again, I am sorry for my mistake and any offense that it may have caused.
I have a suggestion for the shotgun problem.
Actually, I've been talking with friends and brainstorming about heavy in general and think I may have solutions to all of his problems.
If you have some time to spare, please read my suggestions for fixing him, and let me know what you think.
For shotguns in general, make heavy specifically good at using them.
As a primary, they can get special casings and shells that make them do more damage (comparable but slightly lower dps than the miniguns to be burst damage instead of sustain), giving the fatscouts the ability to run a mobile shotgun sandvich style game, which they have wanted for years.
Meanwhile, make secondary shotguns lean more into the repositioning angle and give the heavy +13% base move speed to 90%.
The next slowest character has rocket jumps that can outrun a scout, and the heavy is giving up the ability to heal or buff himself and his teammates.
Sounds like a good trade for a more mobile heavy.
If you slot 2 shotguns (something I'd love to see), have each buff apply only once. You get bonus primary damage for having a primary shotgun, run speed from having a secondary shot gun, and separate ammo pools for both.
Similarly, make the heavy's melee the opposite of scout's.
Why does the fast skinny man have faster swing speed and less damage, while the big guy regularly shown beating the snot out of anyone and everyone in arm's reach and has no real means to close the gap to get people anyway NOT have a better punch?
Finally, all of heavy's weapons need re-balanced against each other.
Minigun, Tomislav, Shotgun, Panic Attack, Fists, Fists of Steel, GRU,and KGB should already be fine from the previous changes above.
Brass Beast needs a very small survivability buff... around 10% on wear just to provide him that little extra breathing space to use it.
Natascha is considered the anti-scout minigun and it is okay, provided you don't mind slowdown mechanics. Something many have complained about in the past.
So why not make the natascha a zoning tool? Change the slowdown on hit to bonus knockback? Say, level 3 sentry knockback? A heavy watching a hall could deny entry to one point until he is dealt with by ranged fire or a spy. Those are his primary weaknesses anyway. To compensate for the hard loss to his dps, they could then experiment with giving the natascha its beta concept of healing him for each hit. It's forcing people away from him, reducing his overall damage, but he is defending a location. That's more experimental.
Huo-long Heater just needs a rework.
The idea is cool on paper, but lacking in execution.
The ring of fire is abysmal in literally every way. It loses sustain due to its abysmal ammo economy, requires lit targets to do more damage than stock, and the deterrent it is supposed to represent is pitiful and redundant. No one wants to be in ring range of heavy anyway, because that is where he is at his strongest. Spy is the only class who would still try to make a play at that range in a skilled competitive setting, and he can just jump over the flames, backstab the heavy, and run away laughing.
Remove the ring of fire. Entirely.
Instead, give the heavy a toggle on his special attack button that reduces the damage of the huo-long by 50%, fires twice as many rounds, that all guarantee fire and afterburn on target, as well as ignite friendly ignitable objects like huntsman arrows. Give the heavy control over when and where he shoots his flames, if you are going to build a weapon around the concept.
The Family Business is... weird. Always has been.
With the above changes, we could split it into two weapons.
The primary could have double the clip capacity, making it more sustain than the other shotguns. Call it the Family Mann
The secondary could then lean into the boosted fire rate and gain switch to speed. Keep the damage penalty to make it standout enough against the secondary panic attack.
Sandvichs
We need to be honest here. When competitive is concerned, there is only 1... and a half.
3 of Heavy's sandviches do the same thing, 2 better than the other, and the only other one is a flawed piece of limp meat that is only viable because speed on heavy is a big deal.
So general change to all lunchboxes: All of them should be medium health kits for teammates and all share the same recharge and duration timers. Finally, have the heavy default back to primary after eating, so unwanted gru drain doesn't occur. This will make it so that all sandviches provide the same bonus to teammates, their only difference being the utility heavy gets.
Sandvich
Make the sandvich the end all be all healer. Set max and current health to 300, unless affected by overheal, in which case just reset max to 300.
Have 125 health from the gru? Eat sandvich. Takes time you could be fighting, you could get caught out if close to the line, get your wind back, go out and shoot bad guys.
Second Banana
The most affected by the above, but I have an idea to make it shine.
Instead of healing of any sort, have the second banana gives the heavy +20% primary weapon accuracy and extends his melee range to sword length for the duration.
Make it an offensive juggernaut.
Dalakohs Bar
The neglected middle child of healing lunchboxes. I saw one used in the video, but I as a heavy main myself can't remember a time where I used it seriously.
The only use I ever remember slotting it for on purpose was in a x10 server to get a max health of 800 to walk in front of snipers.
So my thought is to have the dalakohs bar temporarily double the heavy's max health to 600.
No healing. If you had 125 current health at the time of consumption, that's what you've got.
You would use this in conjunction with a medic or next to a health kit to become one big beefy boy who can take a single sniper headshot from any rifle or bow, allowing you to actually body block for your team or muscle through a hotly contested zone heavy normally couldn't get through.
Spies and sentries wouldn't care, though, so heavy would still be walled or countered by most of the usual suspects. He could just do more with the extra time.
Buffalo Steak
Time for a history lesson!
The buffalo steak is the first weapon in a duo of items to get slapped with nerfs because the competitive scene at the time didn't appreciate heavies suddenly being viable in their self established gamemodes. People saw steak + gru = funny speed, and so complained about it. Valve's solution was to slap both of them with marked for death, damage vulnerability, and later on health drain mechanics. The thing though, is that the buffalo steak lost its primary use case in the nerf. Why would you ever try to melee as the heavy with the steak as it currently is outside of memes? 100% run speed is nice, but unfortunately it is actually not fast enough for heavy to close the gap on anyone who knows he is there. And its hard to miss him. Additionally, he can't even stack that speed with another item to make enough of a difference (capped extra 3% for a total of 103%). Am I saying he should be faster, though? No.
103% is great. The issue is the other stat. The 20% damage vulnerability. Heavy's counters in competitive are sniper and spy, with demo and engie being soft area denial counters. Do sniper and spy care about the damage vulnerability? Nope. They one tap. Sticky traps and sentries also don't particularly care because heavy already wants to avoid them. All the damage vuln does is make heavy not want to try to approach anyone. Losing access to his primary is already punishment enough. Remove the damage vuln so he can actually use his speed.
-Aside, please do the same for the equalizer. It has the exact same problem, just on the soldier.
You want the big slow guys to melee?
Make them want to.
As an admittance, I'd be even happier if the damage vuln was flipped into a damage resistance so that the steak, brass beast, and warrior's spirit play nicer together, and the soldier would appreciate getting more use out of that for his equalizer, as well.
Holiday Punch
This one is slightly more nitpicky, but it tends to be a detriment to the user if it keeps critting.
It is possible for your team or rotten luck to cheat you out of a kill with it so my suggestion is to make it damage already laughing targets rather than keep doing the funny no damage tickles.
It IS inherently funny. But it feels bad to lose the kill because you got a crit or your friendly kritz medic took a piss on you.
Eviction Notice
The most unfortunate victim of collateral damage in tf2.
The GRU got it's effects changed to reducing health per second to combat its speed utility. A speed it gave innately for being worn.
Valve then looked over at the Eviction Notice, saw it gave a speed boost on hit for a damage vulnerability and said "hey, this should have the same change."
The eviction notice gives its speed on hit. On the slowest class in the game. Who, by the time he gets his first hit, has likely had it out for several seconds. And also likely died already as a result.
Remove the drain mechanic and make it either damage vulnerability again or make it deal 5 damage to the heavy on each hit, a small health kit dropping on a kill with it.
Warrior's Spirit
With all of the changes above, including the wishlist item I had for the buffalo steak, I think the Warrior's Spirit would actually be worth using finally.
With a massive +80% damage increase over current heavy melee, that might actually be worth the 30% damage vuln while active. Combine that with 10% resist from brass and 20% from steak, the set would finally function as a cohesive unit, forcing the heavy into a melee mauling mode while the steak is active, and making it easier to reposition for his next stand with the brass.
I had a fun idea to make the heavy a bit more interesting. A weapon concept. Basically a big hook to catch other players and pull them towards yourself. It would replace the minigun and create a new subclass
@@sirpoggers7699 I'm waiting
Hooker heavy
A pretty weak subclass to be honest, pulling enemies near you is not a good thing in tf2
man I do love being cc in a first person shooter, what can go wrong with having the control of my character taken away from me
@@dontsayflan4315 I mean you are heavy. With 300hp, a shotgun and fists I believe you could do a thing or two. Also you can pull them in the middle of your team, killing them instantly
what if we got a Riot Shield as a secondary for Heavy that functions like the Fists of Steel, while only blocking some damage from the front and headshot damage is nurfed while being hit on the head while active but you still get the same damage from everything else if you was to get hit from behind
It would be too powerful. Make it replace minigun, and give it a nominal bash.
Sounds good
Yo this was great! love your humor and writing style. Glad the algorithm showed me your channel!
Ty!
8:30 the point about the stock fists, it would make all to much sense that Heavy would move faster while not carrying the minigun, would it? Im fairly certain not carrying around a 200lb minigun would make you faster
csgo
It's not exactly like the minigun is supposed to pop into existence when he pulls it out
Maybe make them an inverse of scout's bat, where you can charge the punch so that it would hit harder?
I've seen weapon concepts like the Bio Breaker and the War Saw Fact where the minigun gets replaced with a large motorized melee weapon. I think there's a lot of potential in that style of play as a new subclass
Alternatively, Heavy could be given large arcing artillery as a long range option.
I feel like giving Heavy an explosive weapon would just make him a tankier demo or soldier. Heavy definitely needs better melee options but I feel like a primary chainsaw weapon would result in a bunch of suicidal Heavies and only make him another W+M1 class people complain about
@@timelordsheep4413 You raise a very good point. That's one of the hardest parts about changing up Heavy, I find. It's rather difficult to give him a unique alternative playstyle that doesn't A: step on the toes of another class, or B: makes for dull counterplay.
Unfortunately, in order to make a proper subclass for Heavy, you need to change up the core aspect of his gameplay, that being his miniguns. Everything else in his kit is auxiliary to his primary slot, more secondaries - even ones with unique mechanics - would ultimately only clutter his existing playstyle of "move slow and shoot a lot of bullets".
It's kind of hard to shake up his range of primary weapons without resorting to use of melee- or projectile-based damage. Perhaps beam weapons could work, but I'm not certain that would work particularly well, I'm afraid that might just lead to more of the same.
@@timelordsheep4413 If you want an explosive Heavy to stand out as an artillerist, as opposed to Demo or Soldier, I would give such a weapon an extreme arc and reverse damage ramp up, so the projectiles do more damage the longer they're in the air. This would encourage you to lob explosives from long range, walking slow but continuous fire onto your target, while making him weak at close range. This would also give the shotgun a niche as a self defense weapon for an artillery heavy. You could also exaggerate its long range strength and short range weakness even more by giving it a particularly large explosive radius, making imprecise fire more forgiving while punishing you more for using it at short range by basically guaranteeing self damage.
I always thought an AA gun for Heavy would be cool. You know a slower firing but punchier/longer range and more accurate weapon that can build a meter through damage and when activated can destroy projectiles when shooting. Giving him a lower DPS but being capable of being a focus point for the team to surround
9:29 he is so good at using heavy meele he can have the same range as a spy
*Ideas:*
1. Swap the benefits of the Natascha and the Eviction Notice. Natascha with speed boost on hit would reward maneuverability and distance-closing to Heavies with good tracking skills, and the Eviction Notice with enemy slowing on hit would reward well-positioned Heavies with the ability to get the drop on other classes or punish enemies for getting too close.
2. Create a primary that is effectively power armor for Heavy. Unlike the fully passive benefits of booties and a shield on the Demo, this power armor would actually have “ammo” that functions as fuel for the armor to keep working at full capacity. The armor, while always providing damage resistance and crit-canceling, would increase movement speed and overall melee power while fueled, but when empty the heavy would become sluggish and weak. This would pair well with shotguns, lunchbox items, and any given melee weapon. Engies would be able to refuel armor-wearing heavies using metal through wrench hits and rescue ranger shots.
3. Create a secondary that is a partial inversion of Soldier’s banners, where Heavy absorbs X% of damage received by nearby teammates and turns it into a stat boost for himself. This could make him more like a damage tanking character for the team.
4:54 Funny that you said that right after showing an image of the Brass Beast, which is apparently the hardest minigun to use properly.
Heavy is the only class with little to no special gimmicks in any weapon
it would be neat to see another style of weapon for heavy, like maybe a slow firing semi-auto weapon that can pierce multiple enemies
I hear in TF2 Classic, Heavy has a new primary that buffs his shotgun so it deals more damage and has more ammo, so the Fat Scout playstyle is legitimately viable.
I think it also buffs his Movement speed a bit
You must mean in custom weapon servers, as they are pretty prominent on TF2C. Base TF2C heavy only has a sandvich (which is reworked) besides his normal stock load out.
Valve should really consider adding some of those weapons to the main game.
@@ghoulbuster1 Consider how stupidly broken most of these are, I really hope they won't.
@@aleflippy1997 valve can't release balanced weapons either so
@@naf8787 I mean, yeah but TF2C custom weapons are in another world of unbalanced
The edits and commentary are top notch, good stuff!
Ty!
you're so cracked with that eviction notice
The shotgun is still useful as a positioning tool since you don't need to slow down to shoot while you run away or something
The lunchbox items should be it’s own slot
Same could be arqued for soldier and the gunboats
@@0wly nah, gunboats is already good as it is now. That would just be an insane buff for a class that's already good
I love the editing in your videos
Please don't stop
that eviction notice footage was amazing. Also 2010 heavy was pretty amazing too. Loving the video so far
...also i think fire axe is most notorious case of a bad stock weapon (compared to every other option), but it's your vid
Honestly I could've said almost every melee weapon and it'd be the same thing.
The shotgun is more of a last stand situation if you're ever caught without minigun ammo and are too far from an ammo pack or dispenser.
Or if you're not running the tomislav and get jumped by a soldier or scout.
I’m gonna stop you right there. The Pyro Vs Heavy debate ended in Pyro’s favor because Pyro was actually just broken. Heavy at least functioned as intended.
It ended because both classes have a low skill floor, but Pyro has the advantage of a skill ceiling so high it's virtually nonexistent.
Pyro has airblast, flares, jetpack, and melees that allow him to really work behind enemy lines, while heavy has minigun and the abylity to get killed by crit rockets
8:22 my idea is that stock should be a weapon with no downsides and have the highest damage output. The stock fists could be the strongest Heavy melee at the expense of other items having utility benefits and less damage
Love the editing mate, I'm glad I've found this channel!
You've earned a new subscriber, keep it up!
Babe wakeup. New Kaluka vid
Another good change for his lunchbox items is making its recharge time cut in half if it heals someone.
I would say you'd have to make it so the lunchbox item expires faster so that you can't just leave a sandwhich out for like half a minute and then get a refund cause someone eventually picks it up, but that would be cool
@@kalukagamingfellaguy Yeah, that'd be a fair change. Though when you throw a new sandvich, the old one despawns anyways (to prevent abuse for obvious reasons). Alternate is that, once it recharges, the old sandvich immediately despawns.
you have such a comforting voice i love it, that you for making these my bortha
0:39 "Spiderman: Into the Spiderverse, 2018" Prowler's Death, Colorized
literally theres a very important reason for heavy having a shotgun in early tf2, his minigun reved up far slower, and items that increased player speed didnt exist, and it was a great weapon if you suddenly got ambushed along the way to the front
so is his movement speed while revved up
the same speed as a scoped in sniper
7:27 This is like a must have change for all items which are currently recharge on their own, it would balance out mad milk and jarate so much, why only useless Gas Passer works like that😢
Only criticism is that the bottle is a great stock weapon. One of demo's greatest weaknesses is self damage, and the deploy speed debuff on his alternative options makes them a much worse option for when someone gets in your face
I rarely comment on videos but the editing is the bomb. you've got urself a subscrier.
Kaluka, I'm gonna level with you. You're being too reductionalist with Heavy's design. Dumbing his gameplay down to "good positioning" is the same as dumbing Snipers gameplay down to "good positioning". It's a major facet of their gameplay, but it isn't all that's cracked up to be. Sniper needs good perches in order to cover sightlines, then he has to be able to recognise where enemies are coming from, identify key targets, and the decide what aiming style he has to use in order to hit said targets, in order to be effective. And if an enemy tries to rush him, he has to be on the ball to avoid them from overwhelming his own meager defenses. Even then he has to find new perches so as not to get constantly chased by his foes. There's so much more to Sniper than just sitting in a good place, and thats the same with Heavy. He has to know when to ready himself with M2, as if he uses it too soon, he sacrifices his mobility for nothing, but if he uses it too late, he gets ambushed, loses the initiative, and does screaming. He also has to know when to push into the objective/enemy team and when to cut his losses and get out of there. Heavy needs good management of his health so he can tank through what no other class can. He needs good tracking to access his damage. And arguably his most important skill, he needs as good of a game sense as Medic to maximise his efficiency by knowing when pushing is a prerogative or a death sentence. He might not require resource management like Engie, high skill ceilings like rocket jumping, or require mechanical finesse like Scout, but that doesn't mean he's just "the guy who positions well". Heavy is Heavy, a walking meat wall with a massive RPM to go with it, the biggest threat on the battlefield short of an Übercharged duo who commands respect from the enemy team, and woe be the opposition who doesn't pay him his dues. I agree with your stance on Heavy's arsenal requiring more diversity, but right now, he's more than what you give him credit for
You've perfectly put into words what I was merely feeling, I wholeheartedly agree with this
Did... Did you really just try to make the most one-note class in the game seem more nuanced and skill-based than he actually is by comparing him to the SECOND most one-note class in the game...?
Shotgun on Pyro is basically there so he can have a close to slightly mid range burst damage option. Unlike the Heavy, Pyro's flamethrower expires at a certain distance and doesn't kill as fast as the minigun so a shotgun helps Pyro deal damage a bit further out of his ideal range and allows him to chunk down classes with higher health pools since damage over time doesn't quite cut it at times.
I used to use Natascha when it was first introduced as it was a legitimate sidegrade - less damage but you slow enemies down so your teammates can get them. Then it got nerfed because Scouts hated it, but it did change Heavy's nature a bit while it was a thing. There are other ways you could add functionality to various miniguns - increase accuracy at the cost of damage, have accuracy start out bad but improve with subsequent kills, have a damage meter that fills up to give you any of the following: full accuracy for 10 seconds (or whatever, I'll just use 10 for example purposes), no damage falloff for 10 seconds, minicrits for 10 seconds, take half damage for 10 seconds, increased movement speed for 10 seconds, increased fire rate and no ammo consumption for 10 seconds, etc. You could also tailor the melee weapons for various roles - reduced damage to players but increased damage against buildings, resistance to fire or explosions at the cost of max health, severely reduced damage but heckin' big knockback to send enemies flying - that would be hilarious to see. Maybe even make one of the melees give Heavy a temporary jump buff - meter fills and you can "punch" the ground to jump up high, like a rocket jump, every so often. This would help Heavy get to places he normally couldn't. There's all sorts of things you can do. Just need someone at Valve to try them and get creative.
The point of the shotgun on the pyro is to fight other pyros, why use a fire against fire resistant character or a melee when you can just shoot and do more damage.
Also the best stock melees include the bottle
The only viable way to play heavy is to very unexpectedly switch to him mid-round, jump around a few corners when nobody expects it, then switch away after one or two deaths
Ok here's some really interesting ideas for Heavy, it's going to be real game changing so some people would hate it:
1) Give Minigun spray patterns instead of random bullet bloom.
2) Give Minigun's bullets wall penetration abilities.
This way, instead of focusing on sub-classes or certain unlocks, this gives more depth and raises the skill curve for ALL viable heavy loadouts. And while it would give Heavy more things to think about, his general role in the game remains the same. But he will simply have more range if you are great at spray control, and more interesting positions due to wall-bangs. Of course these are just buffs, so they might have to slightly nerf his minigun damage or damage fall off to compensate. Heavy is already a powerful class, he needs a rework to have more skill expression, not a buff.
But in terms of subclasses buffalo steak sandvich needs a big buff. Remove the hidden 30% damage taken while active, and also it should heal the heavy 100 hp when eaten.
When I first read your suggestions, I cringed a bit thinking about TF2 being more like a tactical shooter. But the more I thought about it, the more I think it could work. It's very rare in Tf2 do I have moments where I think "wow that heavy player is so good", because really you can't do anything flashy with Heavy, at best you just have consistency. But if there were spray patterns, a great heavy main could decimate you even if you are well outside his previous effective range by using spray control.
The wallbang idea is maybe problematic because TF2 maps were simply not designed for it. For example, 2 Fort has blu side by all concrete and metal and red side be made out of wood. So would the bullet penetration be more powerful on Red's side? This idea only makes sense if material of wall didn't affect bullet penetration (which would be confusing) or if all maps were reworked to have balanced wall material placement (which would be a lot of work). That said, it would be really funny if Heavies with god-like gamesense tracked you through a wall. In general I like the spray control idea a lot more than the bullet penetration.
In the steam workshop, there is an item reskin called the "War Saw Fact", a giant chainsaw for the Heavy that would presumably go in primary, and it was such a thing he could have used.
Heavy should get to eat a chilli peppers so he can burp a fireball at people
Girst
That Elden Ring edit probably took way too much effort for the return, but it was very good.
I was drunk lmao
@@kalukagamingfellaguy even better
I think adding fat scout boots or something that make the fat scout subclass practical it would make him more fun.
I disagree with final thought that Heavy needed update more than Pyro. They both needed an update, and the fact we're still waiting for one for Heavy is sad.
I know we will never get it. That Artifact project was soooo worth scrapping it.
Good video, thanks!
I love melee heavy, but you are probably right, my brain does block out the 15 times i died running in like an idiot.
If heavy had an air dash, you bet there would be people trying to trimp
This guy sounds like what jerma would sound like if he was human
Its pretty funny that the meme still exist of pyro being a m1+W character when heavy exists xd
me 'n' my friend thought of some ideas, mainly in the form of a full pirate-themed set
-the new primary is a cannon that has a AOE knockback effect on impact and has enough recoil to launch you around like the Force 'a' Nature but has a long cooldown to use.
-the new secondary is a blunderbuss with a much wider spread but more pellets per shot so it does roughly equal damage and, due to being able to shot straight garbage, gains ammo when you take bullet damage as you load the bullets now in your flesh but has to reload after every shot and has very low ammo.
-the new melee is a hook hand that inflects bleed and pushes you upwards but gives melee vulnerability when active since it's much easier for someone to hit your arms.
I think this is the most serious you’ve been so far in a video
If this is serious I'd hate to see what joking is lmao but ty
Damn you are so underrated, great video man.
i think the shotgun would be more useful if heavy had a 4th slot for consumables like the sandwiche, the second banana etc.
3:06 because you have flame AND bullet dmg now, which is useful for maps with water, enemy pyros, and vaccinator medics
Im on both sides of the coin, I want some things for heavy but its also satisfying mowing down everything using a character thats barely changed in 20 years compared to everyone else
give heavy a skate board/roller skates. It would be a secondary. When you crouch jump forward, you slide upon landing on the ground, even when revved. Point is you can pre-rev jump around a corner and just do a drive by. Also allows him to get around ever so slightly faster. sounds op but you're completely giving up your lunchbox/shotgun.
Tomislav: Silent rev up. Grants +60% Bonus accuracy for 7 seconds on kill. -20% fire rate
Natasha: Every kill increases movement speed while deployed by 10%. 40% maximum. Resets on death. -20% deploy speed.
Brass Beast: +25% damage, killing enemies grants you +60% bullet resistance and +30% blast resistance for 3s. -50% deploy speed. -20% movement speed while deployed.
Huo Long Heater: Create a ring of fire while deployed. Staying deployed charges the dragon metre. Automatically activated at 100%; gain +50% bonus fire damage for 6 seconds (No afterburn.)
+33% chance to be lit on fire for every 2 seconds deployed. Extra ammo is consumed while deployed.
Thoughts?
EDIT: Alternative Brass Beast: +10% damage bonus. Kills grant knock back and critical immunity for 4s. -50% deploy speed. No ammo from dispensers while deployed.
The brass beast seems like it could be a bit of a pain to fight but other than that these seem like they'd pretty fun to play around with.
@@WiseMysticalTree81 I made an edit with an alternate version to be a little less tanky, wdyt???
A cool idea would be to give heavy a primary that's NOT a minigun
Give him something like, a riot shield that prevents incoming damage from the front, and maybe has a shield bash that works like like either a shoulder tackle for movement boost or a bash that works like a mini airblast/shortstop push for its M1 & M2
This alone could heavily change how fatscout and melee heavy would be played, allowing for much more daring plays now that you don't get immediately deleted once you dare to show your face to any player above 12iq
I run a shotgun with the brass beast to help me out when there's not enough time to rev. It's pretty effective
I will never forget the time when a guy in a server found an eviction notice and then said "I'm getting kicked out of my house soon."
Im just noticing the warnings at the beginning, very interesting
I think Masuhiro Sakurais video on complexity on fighting games shows the issue with Heavy ie the push & pull heavy brings to fights which is why he has a low skill ceiling & is so polarising to play as/against
You could add a minigun thay works like the bazaar bargain, it starts with a slower ramp up/slower shooting speed than stock, but the more kills/damage you do the faster it becomes
i see heavy as the easy difficulty class
he is easy to understand...but also easy to underesemate
Just make it so heavy has 1 perfectly accurate pellet always when firing, that would give him more effective ranges than just point blank, giving him more to do and more to get good at.
One of the most fun playstyles I've had with heavy is "flank heavy," where I essentially try to get in ambush from unusual positions. The banana really made it a more viable playstyle, and I think a mini gun that rewards that playstyle (something like the backscatter) would be nice
If you want a good ambush heavy minigun, all you really need is a close-quarters minigun that has the Tomislav's silent rev.
+15% damage bonus
Silent Killer: No barrel spin sound
20% less accurate
Works better with the bar.
Get that extra health before ambush.
6:15 I'm somewhat frightened because I was there earlier today
All stock melee should Do minicrits when below 50% and crits when below 25%.
Of course after removing random crits from the game.
apparently meet the scout was released at the same day heavy got his sandvich (August 19th, 2008)
Edit: maybe even after, was just looking at the wiki for dates but on youtube it says meet the scout was released in 2009, so who knows
I personally think letting you equip lunchbox items into your primary slot could do a lot for making melee and shotgun heaby an actual thing. You can double up effects, like being able to heal and also use the steak, or have a heal for your shotgun. Not a be all end all, but it'd be fun.
Holy fuck i was not ready for this amount of quality & niche edits on a video with only 11k views, talking about the video itself, i would entirely agree if it weren't for saying that the heavy's reign is in close range, while yeah damage wise that can be true, i'd say middle - close range is more accurate, & in situations where you're on low health and whipping out the minigun & reving it up might just lose you the fight, the shotgun can come in handy ! Although it does seem that the sandvich was his intended secondary. Great video over all !
Cook subclass for a heavy. Some sort of primary weapon that resembles a backpack, a stove or a minifridge on his back.
+Significantly faster food regen. One new food item every 10/5/3 seconds? Whatever is more balanced.
+Extra food charges. 2/3/4 charges? Whatever is more balanced.
+Steady health regen. Similar to medic.
+Temmates get different effects depending on food type:
Banana gives a speed boost for 8 seconds. Sandvich can overheal with reduced overheal decay rate. Meat stake boosts all damage dealt by 15% for 8 seconds. All food types heal the same amount and have identical recharge speed.
+Eating a food item yourself gives you all three effects. Mark for death and melee restriction from meat stake is removed.
-You have to sacrife your primary and secondary to make any use from this item, limiting you only to fists. Thus you become a mix between a medic and demoknight.
Whats sad is that I believed the real eviction notice gameplay for at least 5 seconds...
I think a good bonus to give to stock that wouldn’t break the class is ammo max up, maybe instead of 200, you get 250 or so, it’s nice and has good synergy with the heater
i actually had a possible explanation on how the shotgun was originally intended, basically before heavy got buffed to be faster most heavies ran around with a shotgun bevore revving the minigun in the frontlines, since back then the minigun revs as fast as the natascha and made you move slower than a scoped sniper
3:05
pyro and heavy
for pyro, combo pyro and a way to deal non fire damage
for heavy, being able to use a shot gun when you cant use your mini gun is actually useful
as an example
your walking forward, your minigun is not yet revved. Then BOOM! a scout appears from around a corner and shoots you
if you try to use your minigun, he'll be on the other side of the map by the time it's reved, then when you unrev it to get closer he'll pepper you again.
if you use your shotgun, thats immediate damage
"heavy needed the update more" pyro flame hitbox. Do I need so say more
1:27 The reason behind of it is that because of Heavy's minigun back in the day had SLOWER rev time compared to today. With that update shotgun became (sort of) useless.
I've had the idea for a while that Heavy should be given a 4th slot for sandwiches, but also, that on top of sandwiches it should be allowed for him to equip soldier's banners there too. Making it a utility item slot.
On top of that, give the shotgun slot an ammo box that basically has, say, 500% ammo in it that gets given out based on percentage restored to nearby allies or something, it could even explode when shot to let heavies rocket jump or set up traps near enemies.
Heavy should of gotten a canon that shoots a 200 damage canon ball every 5 seconds... with aoe
I think an interesting secondary item would be some kind of mobile dispenser for heavy on his back like the buff banner, giving him a small health regen, smaller health pool(or ammo pool) but able to provide health and ammo similar to a level 1 dispenser to other players (also needing to recharge). This gives him a more supportive role while also making him favorable to push along side and can make ammo management a little easier.
best Idea ive heard for a new Minigun involves its firing speed increasing based on how much damage you've done recently, with the speed draining whenever you aren't dealing damage/revved up
Now that I think it, I remembered a weapon concept: overheat
+20% spin UP speed
+20% firing Speed
-20% damage penalty
+100% primary ammo
-15% scatter
Accuary decreases unnecesary slowly, as you keep holding M1 (UP to a máximum of 5 secconds)
*On hit: gain Heat based on damage dealt*
*[R] button when full of Heat to activate overheat*
*Overheat Increases damage and firing Speed by 30%, but your scatter Increases by 40%.*
*Overheat perdures for 1,5 secconds.* Afterwards, you're forced for 10 secconds to not fire your minigun, as a weapon cooldown
+20% resistance when deploying the melee
+20% holster Speed
-10% Speed when spun-up
The best buff I can think of that all classes could use on their melees would be giving a small speed buff for having ANY melee active. This would give another risk/reward system where we get more speed, but only have melee. Even something like a 10% speed boost would help and if it already had a speed boost, just add more of a boost. If that forces a rework of some weapons (like the Baby Face), then rework it.
Like CS:GO and knives, basically.
I just discovered the Commander class from Emesis Blue. I’m certain the 10th merc is the Commander, the would be leader of the team. Kind of tragic when you think about it it.
The Commander was actually part of the prototypes that evolved into TF2.