I'm just gunna start by saying I am a huge fan of Sansa. She's become one of my favourite characters, which is saying something because I hated her at first. I am also a feminist and call out unnecessary Patriarchal BS when I see it. But I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU. Sansa should make her opinion heard, and Jon should take more faith in her council. However, Sansa started bickering with him during the meeting of the Northern Lords, and that is not okay regardless of her gender. The Starks more than EVER need to show a unified front, and while disagreeing with him is fine, picking a fight and undermining him in front of everyone is only going to cause tension and doubt. Ultimately they both had really good points, and there is no real right or wrong between them. I favour Sansa's opinion, however I totally see Jon's point too. But Sansa should have backed off after making her opinion known. If she wanted to discuss it in more depth, she should have done so privately. I'm really hoping that this is all a trap she is laying for Littlefinger, because I really don't want her to slip backwards into the selfish little bitch that she was in the first season. I love her character so much now and I'll be very disappointed >
I agree with you on this but I wished Sansa would tell Jon and the other Lords what happen to in Kings Landing and that she was beaten when ever Robb won a battle.
Sansa it playing The Game of Thrones now. She is no longer a pretty little protagonist. The kingdom is hers to rule. She learned how to play the game from the failers of cersi, her dad, tyrion, and ramsy. Is she supposed to let this idealist boring (jon is the most boring character in the whole fucking series) dolt bastard command the future of her namesake and house? No, she is going to take him down and lead. Its called Game of Thrones not let my half brother bore everyone to death.
I think season 1 showed what happens to people like Jon, in the beginning people thought Ned Stark was going to be super important and he was betrayed by Littlefinger, and who has Sansa been learning from the most? Either Littlefinger or Cersei, and no matter how you look at it her brother is fucked, he's too honorable Sansa too clever. People ASSUME she has learned from Littlefinger and Cersei, but is still a Stark with a commitment to family but she isn't like her father and Jon so why do we assume that?? Everyone is shaped by their environment whether they like it or not and her environment has been nothing but lies and deceit for a while, yet we assume she is good, again I ask why? The answer to all my questions is because WE the viewer want the Starks to work together so we can't imagine one betraying another, our perspective mimic's Jon's thoughts when he told Sansa "We have to trust each other, we have so many enemies now" but what he never learned is that he shouldn't trust anyone because if you do you will probably just get killed for it.
In the Great Hall scene, Jon was absolutely respectful BUT firm while Sansa attempted railroading him. Squabbling in front of the Northern Lords is not contributing to the "cunning Sansa" she is supposedly going to be the season.
Because Joffrey (way more vicious than Jon) was never undermined by Tyrion or Tywin? I guess he got away with it because he's Tyrion fucking Lannister, right?
Again, why are people missing the part where the entire room clamored for every word Sansa said? She gave him politically sound advice, and he denied it in front of the people he is trying to keep a political hold on.
The Sovereign Joffrey wasn't really the king, mostly everything was handled by tywin as hand and by Tyrion as hand Joffrey was only a boy. Tywin even said if you think he's the most powerful person in westeros your a fool
People also clamored for Jon in the end. Let's not forget that the Karstarks turned on the Starks because Robb beheaded the Lord of Karstark. Kinda like how Robb turned on the Crown when they arrested and eventually beheaded Ned... And as someone who spent the first 4 seasons being mistreated for being "the daughter of a Traitor" in King's Landing, you'd think she wouldn't be so eager to strip children of everything because of the actions of the adults. Ultimately, Jon was right seeing as trying to unite the North(and other realms) to fight the impending frozen doom is the ABSOLUTE MOST important thing to Jon(rightfully so). But yeah Sansa, you go girl!
Jon was right, and it's a brilliant move. He's saying ancestral homes are not to be undone by whim of current events, and it cements House Stark's position as the paramount house of The North. It prevents any other house trying to usurp them like the Boltons. Brilliant! :D
Nathan Bradley, I'm in total agreement with you. Watching the scene, I could see both arguments, but one thing forgotten is that compassion and empathy can breed loyalty as well as fear. Most times, it's even stronger! GRRM demonstrates this about northern loyalty through the Manderlys and other northern houses on-page. Perhaps in regular times, Sansa's idea would be "right." But the current situation means different rules.... Once she sees a WW, perhaps she'll be less consumed with games!
You're absolutely right!!! She's being a child by defying his authority infront of everyone. She's channeling Cersi to much, instead of her lady charm like Margery or Olenna.
dany lost her home because of robert's rebellion..u can see the result..she is out for revange..arya lost her family and home..u can see the result..she is out for revange..not letting karstarks and umber free would create another one.should use sense before giving advices..jon did right thing.. northerners will never betray mostly..karstarks and umbers betrayed starks before for a reason..now they will be loyal !
you're totally right. Sansa should have voiced her opinion in private. for me Jon made the right decision. the Boltons took Winterfell from the Starks because they were traitors on the Crown's opinion. If they didn't take it by force Jon and Sansa would have been in the same position as Alys and Ned. thanks a lot for sharing your opinion on that subject.
Jon is King. In public, he should appear so. If Sansa has any qualms, expressing them in PRIVATE is okay. In public, absolutely NOT. The more I watch their talk after the incident, the more I think they're both acting like young siblings. Sansa's "Well Joffrey didn't let anyone question him" is petty and stupid. On the other hand, Jon listening to her concerns isn't a terrible thing. They should be a team going forward. He can focus on the Night King and she can insulate him from threats and grumbling aamong the lords. But in public, they need to appear UNITED. No more undermining, Sansa. Lock it down.
caomhan84 He said himself he doesn't want anyones input with his 'who should I listen to? You?!' that shows openly what he thinks of her and her opinion.
They were bickering like siblings there...she was being petty and he snapped back at her. That's all that instance was. Stop trying to make this into a feminism/patriarchy thing. You're grasping at straws.
Why not? She should be doing everything to undermine her. When you play the game of thrones you either win or you die. Why should she let this idealistic loser be king? He will die just like her father. Sansa should take every step she can to remove Jon.
Yes all hail King of the Snores, Conqueror of interest and intrigue, The Great Blandless, The one that is immune to page turning, Paragon of Generic Jon Snow!
If Sansa wanted to rule, she should have stepped up when Jon basically fucking gave it to her. Sansa constantly makes stupid decisions and does nothing to actually save herself. In this instance she was correct about giving the castles to loyal houses, but she was only right because the spiteful option happened to be the right option this time. People want to pretend Sansa is such a strong character now because she sent a raven and released some dogs. The girl hasn't done anything useful besides allowing others to do most of the work/fighting for her.
It's a lot easier to rule from the shadows than in the spotlight. Sansa wants to make big decisions, but is not confident in herself. She's trying to play the game for Jon, but not fully grasping that once she gave up her chance to get the seat of Winterfell, she also gave up the right to make decisions for it. That's Jon's responsibility now, but she's trying to push him to make the moves she wants. She's going 100 MPH, Jon is not and she can't handle it properly at the moment.
remember people say jon is the jerk because he shouted down a woman and that is a bad thing for sjw's. reverse the roles and they would be saying she is empowering.
Thanks. we are talking about the people reacting to it and not the character. people in the real world still think that shouting down a woman is a bad thing even when they claim to be as powerful as men. know the difference between reality and fiction white knight. @chosenwolf The logic of putting down a woman over a disagreement comes form the sjws and not rational people.
I think there is one big thing that everyone is forgetting during this argument is that Jon and Sansa just had a past season to fight to get there ancestral home back yet in the first episode sans wants to rip away the ancestral home for two other families. noticed no one said anything about the Bolton Castle where they can give that to someone. it wasn't about challenging 4-position it was about doing what was right and unifying the North if he would have given it away it would have divided people slightly that's why when sansa are proposed her idea some people clap but when John had them swear loyalty everyone clapped and the two heirs finally felt like they were part of the group instead of Outsiders at the time
Is she still a Bolton though? Ramsay is dead, she is still married to Tyrion technically. I'm pretty sure that consummation of the marriage on the wedding night is only a Faith of the Seven thing.
Even if he's dead, technically she's still a Bolton in the same way that after Jon Arryn died, Lysa was still Lady Arryn. Also, during the Red Wedding, Robb's wife said the bedding ceremony was weird but Robb said it was tradition, therefore normal.
I disagree with Sansa's plan for one reason. The houses that don't have much land also don't have many soldiers. The Karstarks and Umbers, even after the Battle of the Bastards, are still the two largest houses in The North. Sansa's plan would have likely planted the seeds of rebellion giving them incentive to join with Cersei or Danni against the Starks. Though I do think that there should be some punishment and reward, but I kicking these huge houses out of their ancestral homes is not it. Instead have them pay a slightly higher tax to recoup the losses, and give some of the lesser houses that aided the Starks lands in The Gift and other abandoned castles. Also, Ser Davos should get The Dreadfort. As far as Sansa speaking out in the middle of the meeting goes; yeah, you're correct.
Jonathan Stern, thanks for sharing your own thoughts on this, if she wants to distribute houses why not start with the Dreadfort? There's no body there, or is she thinking of settling there? Well I guess she could, afterall she is Sansa Bolton.
Cyndi sammy, I think the answer regarding the Dreadfort is that Sansa wasn't thinking about reward. Her primary motivation was punishment, talking away castles to show power. Period. But power comes from true devotion too, as GRRM shows us with book-Manderly's and others.
You're confused. Aren't they here talking about the show and not the books? Isn't this is a thread about the show? Don't be pretentious where it's unnecessary....like its very dum.
Agreed, I was talking about the show. I've only read, or rather listened to the first three books. But, it's my understanding that in the books, Jayne Poole is the one who married into the Boltons, and Sansa is still in The Vale trying to get Harry the Heir's dick wet.
Jon's decision is based on having as capable a northern army as possible to combat the army of the dead. Defensively, the Karstarks and Umbers are first in line after the wall falls. Nobody knows the defenses of their homes better than the families who have lives there for centuries. I also think that his refusal to punish children for their father's action fits with his personality and is one of the themes of the show...I.e. Dany, Daughter of the mad king and Tyrion... a redeeming character for his detestable father, Tywin.
I actually agree more with Sansa in the decision since Karstark and Umber don't behave like they do in the books when their family was acting up. Although truthfully I just don't want there to be any Stark on Stark conflict.
kaledov To be fair you can't blame all the Umbers and Karstarks for the actions of their Lords. That would be like Jaimie or Tyrion doesn't deserve to be Lords of Casterly because their Lannisters.
Has Sansa forgotten that SHE was displaced with no home to go to last season? She prodded/forced Jon to take back Winterfel so that she would have a home to go back to. Punishing the Carstark and Umbers out of their home would have made enemies of both houses. And sniping at Jon in front of everyone was just plain wrong. Behind closed doors it would be ok if she was having a problem with Jon's idea of what he felt was right in this situation. It seems that Sansa still doesn't have a clue about the threat headed their way from the WW.
Have you and everyone else criticizing Sansa forgotten it was her that took Winterfell and the North back from the Boltons by pushing that moron that is Jon Snow into try to rally the Northern houses to get their home back after he refused to get off his ass and then was smart enough to get the Knights of the Vale to come to their rescue in order to save them she didn't tell Jon because he wouldn't listen he never listens to her he should've STFU because Sansa was right then and she's right now Jon's naive he can't play the game, Sansa has learned the hard way and with Littlefinger at her side she's the real player here Jon's out of his league he can't rule he has no clue he belongs on a battlefield NOT on a throne. p.s. Sansa is Ned Stark's true born daughter so HELL YEAH she should challenge Jon for the North because it's her RIGHTFUL claim and he's as clueless as Ned and Rob were. If Jon listened to Sansa and her advice instead of dismissing her like she doesn't know anything she wouldn't be frustrated with his disrespect and disregard for opinion . Where does he think she's been this whole fucking time sunbathing? she was a captive in Kingslanding,taken by Littlefinger and then sold off to the Boltons so yes she knows what the fuck she's taking about she used to be a weakling prey now she's become a very smart, manipulative predator and I love it.
ps I agree you I think there is a plan going along here Sansa is trying to trap Littlefinger and this mummer farce is Sansa's plan to play Littlefinger. She knows that Littlefinger is not happy with Jon's rules the North.
dee sousa I'm not a Jon Snow die-hard, he's not the perfect character but just for the record - Sansa agreed to go back to Winterfell and marry Ramsay. She had a choice in the matter and she made that choice herself - then she turns around and blames Little Finger for it. Also, how many times did Jon ask her where they could get more men to fight the Boltons? How many times did she not tell him about the Vale? She even admits to 'being sorry for not telling him' that they could've had more help beforehand and that she didn't know why she kept that info from him. How is it right to drag an apparently 'unentitled bastard' into a war they want nothing to do with? Why is is ok for her to use saving Rickon as the main motivation for Jon only to not care about Rickon at all in the greater scheme of 'getting revenge'. Why is her want to throw the Karstarks and Umbers out of their homes the 'smarter' option when that same action was taken against her family and only caused further dissent in the north? I want Sansa to be a good character - I want her character arch to be fruitful and awesome, but honestly I'm not seeing it - the writing for her character is awful if she's supposed to be a 'good' person because right now she's looking like a younger Cersei and that won't be good for anyone.
I totally agree. Plus, I was shocked to hear Sansa told Little finger she's surrounded by her _'friends'_ but didn't mention *_'family_* . Obviously Sansa does not consider Jon as her family and thus she was bluntly talking out of whim cuz she couldn't take Jon was the king of the north. Bad Sansa bad!
He told her he is not a stark , and she told him you are a stark to me , are you an idiot or what ???!!!! You want just any excuss to hate her no matter what she did and do
There are things that Jon is very good at. He spent time at the wall, knows the cruel nature of winter. He’s seen the white walkers, killed the white walkers. Similarly there’s things Sansa knows that Jon doesn’t. She grew up in King’s landing surrounded by people like Joffrey, Cersei etc. She knows their basic strategies she knows how the game works. If they’re gonna survive this winter they have to do it together. Compromise. But after this episode I’m pretty sure they’re going to learn this the hard way. I feel like they're taking this sibling rivalry route and I don't like it. on the other hand, in sansa's words itself, she doesn't want Jon making the same mistakes their father *cough uncle* and Robb did, however Sansa isn't .. idk taking a proper approach to explain this to him. he's right in his way and she's right in her own way
I think she's only did that to put on a show for little finger. To "show" that there is a ripple in their relationship and that he can wriggle his way through but she's setting a trap. This is probably a reach, but a girl has hope.
I was going to reply with the same. Sansa's not that stupid. The vid creator is too focused on twitterverse feminism to consider what might be her real motives for publicly undermining Jon.
I think it would have been appropriate to question Jon/object to him in a private meeting where they make the decisions before presenting them to everyone in the north. However, it was completely inappropriate to do so in the actual meeting. It does undermine Jon's authority and make it look like there's discontent. Sansa should have voiced her projections to Jon before the meeting, not during.
I believe what Jon did was right, the karstark and umber lords were just children and when Jon asked them to come forward they were scared shitless! This means when they swore their service to Jon they will at least be allies for hundreds of years like they were before and at this moment in time Jon needs every ally possible.
Glover’s argument was “You expect me to put a spear in my granddaughters hands” at which point Lyanna stood up. He wasn’t arguing the girls shouldn’t fight he didn’t want to put his granddaughter in danger. Once Lyanna announced she was on board with Jon’s idea he rest of the northern lords agreed so it’s not sexism
To me, Sansa believed that the fact that she argued with Jon in front of the Small Council and other Houses was in a way approved of due to the fact that she was the closest relation to Jon and she was his only family. She may have believed that this gave her a foundation that other people in the room didn't have to argue with Jon's ultimate decision.
I find it ridiculous that a girl who betrayed her family and watched her father beheaded is the queen of the North it pisses me off I wish Sansa died instead of Rickon
And how exactly is Sansa supposed to get her way of she doesn't argue her point? It certainly doesn't look like Jon is sharing his game plan with his advisors before making the public announcement. And there would be no point in talking about it afterwards once the decision has been made. Jon certainly can't reverse himself.
Well the point is that Sansa doesn't get her way. It's not her call to make. She gave it a shot to say: Nope, we should take their castles. Once Jon says "NOpe, they're keeping them" then bam, it's over. Sansa arguing once he said that is what makes her wrong.
And why doesn't she get her way? Its her family they betrayed and she is the one who saved the day. It should be her call and even if it isn't she should get an equal say in the matter.
And your "Jon Worshiper" line proves you to be hypocrite, because it seems obvious to everyone that you're a closet Sansa lover. He was absolutely right. You don't go questioning kings once they've made their decisions, especially when those aren't tyranical or cruel decisions. Sansa was totally out of line and she wouldn't have did that if Baelish wasn't whispering in her ear thoughts which undermined Jon's authority.
I think Sansa didn't think through her actions properly, maybe a show of support for Jon during the meeting and making her opinions known to Jon afterwards. If they don't both learn from this episode then it could be down hill for them both but I truly hope that it doesn't happen again because they are both on the same team.
I don't think the "She should know her place, he is the king" argument is a very strong one. For starters, Sansa isn't really Jon's subordinate, at least in her mind she isn't, or in Jon's mind for that matter. So it's not like Daenerys and her knights. They clearly serve her. I think a closer comparison would be Ned and Robert back in season 1. Robert was his King, but Ned still argued with him and didn't back down in front of his small council. I don't think anyone ever argued that Ned was in the wrong there. Tbh I agree with Jon. Particularly when it comes to the Umbers. The eldest Umber was the one that proposed that Robb should become King in the North. In their case it really was a bad seed who broke faith.
Viteh I still think that's a little different. With Ned and Robert, like you said was with the Small Council. I think it would have been a lot different if say they were in front of all the southern lords. I don't think Ned would have acted that way if they were in front of them.
Obviously, I feel it's an incredible argument. Sansa is his subordinate, just like everyone else in that room (including Littlefinger). He's King in the North. As Joffrey says "The kind can do as he likes." Jon's word is what they want to go by, seeing as though they named him King in the North when he didn't want it. The Robert and Ned comparison isn't the same. Ned argued with Robert behind closed doors -- if Sansa had called Jon an idiot sandwich pertaining to this issue in a small council meeting, I wouldn't have a negative thing to say. I'd say Sansa is doing her duty as an advisor and half-sister. But to do that in front of the entire North + Vale? She's 100 percent wrong, and it's different. The Dany/Jorah-Barristan comparison is much, much more relevant. Jon may be right on his plan. Umbers and Karstarks are very strong houses in the North. I think Sansa was more correct, but he isn't necessarily wrong either.
I don't really understand why Sansa is more right given what we know in the story? She's so concerned and scared for what Cersei is going to do but Jon was 100% right in that any army she has is not going to come to the north to unseat them, the concern is with the Night King Plus the plan she suggests is one of the dumb decisions Robb and his folks made when they killed the Lannister boys. Also, "he (or she) who casts the sentence should swing the sword," I don't think Sansa is capable of beheading anyone nor is it her job to do. Now if we're talking him being lured somewhere, yeah watch out but other than that pssh. If anything Littlefinger is more of a threat and she knows it and he's chilling with them in Winterfell. Personally, if I was Jon, I would have more questions about why she didn't tell me about the Vale or Littlefinger and why is he still here and what does he want. I've seen in other videos, it's also important to note that their land is very close to the wall and will be important to have strong armies there of strong houses ready to wage war there when the army of the dead comes.
How the hell is she supposed to counsel him when he doesn't hold a separate meeting before making big decisions? Obviously, talking to him afterwards would be too late. The fundamental problem is that Jon doesn't listen to people and least of all to Sansa. A king can't do as he likes or he won't be king for long, as Joff found out the hard way. Jon being a new, unproven king and a bastard puts him in a precarious position. He's in no position to play little dictator. Now obviously Sansa shouldn't undermine Jon. But this would have been avoidable if he talked important policy decisions over with key advisors before holding a huge meeting. Ultimately it's his fault for not communicating well. For what it's worth I think Jon's decision was probably correct, not because of some naive moral reasons, but because they need the men and resources of those two castles utilized efficiently to face the imminent invasion from the north.
Viteh Dude that's the small council, you are supposed to argue in the small council and question the King during a small council meeting, those are the King's most trusted advisors. However whenever the king convenes his all his lords you never hear anyone question the king, they might respectfully offer their opinion however they never keep pushing their opinion.
Saying Sansa should have argued Jon privately is irrelevant. Jon was about to announce a decision without first counseling with her. She had to speak up. The feud was inevitable.
TheBattProductions being demure and silent like the proper lady she was taught to be sure as shit didn't help her life as a young girl . Of course she's learned to be outspoken if she feels her opinion is warranted. If Jon didnt want opposition in front of the lords, he needs to discuss things with a small council. Her whole point in the conversation later is merited: good kings understand they need the guidance and perspectives of others. Bad kings think they know everything.
+Rebeca A. It absolutely helped her as a young girl. Tyrion said it himself "Lady Stark...you may survive us yet" after Sansa shut her mouth and just said "Joffrey is my one true love" after she got the hell beat out of her. That's not how it works. Sansa doesn't get run of the room just because Jon didn't discuss his decision. As a King, it's his prerogative to seek counsel or not. Dany wouldn't allow Tyrion to do what Sansa did. As I pointed out in my video, she didn't let Jorah or Barristan do it, either. It's crappy to say, but her point is irrelevant in this specific discussion (as to whether or not she should've spoken up). There's a way to do it, and Sansa didn't do it right.
Oh my gosh yes, I TOTALLY agree with you. It is VITAL to present a unified front. Sansa attacking Jon undermines him - which is possibly her end game. It's certainly Baelish's. What annoys me is she is probably going to be one of the characters who will survive. She is a character who I didn't like in the beginning, I admired in the middle, and I'm back to not liking her at all right now.
I completely agree with you. Her opinions may (or not) have been valid but that was not the time or place to push them. This should have been discussed before the meeting not during... The only thing about her opinion I was uncomfortable with was punishing the children of houses Umber and Karstark. Back in season 2 she was being punished for Robb's victorys. So I'm concerned for her lack of empathy here.
I agree! Sansa needed to keep her damn mouth shut during the meeting. She should have spoken to Jon PRIVATELY. Airing out the dirty laundry in public undermined Jon's authority, and because he didn't shut Sansa up, it made him appear weak in front of all of the northern lords.
Guy Williams I agree but the subject was brought up by someone else in around about way, not by either Jon nor Sansa. I still think that Littlefinger is trying to cause issues between them.
Well that's not fair to say. If Sansa had a strong opinion, she should tell him ahead of time. It's not fair to blame Jon like that as if he HAS to ask Sansa for counsel on every decision he makes.
He's running a very large organisation (the kingdom) and so should consult with the board of directors (his small council / cabinet) before launching new policies to the management board (his bannermen / lords / parliament). He should have informed his key advisors including Sansa and Davos and gained or demanded their public support in advance, rather than risk exactly this kind of situation.
Astrid Dececco Fair enough, but the whole situation could have been avoided by them having a chat in advance. As Jon is taking the senior role, he should have arranged this. If Sansa's belief is that Jon doesn't have her political nouse, then she should have taken the initiative and arranged it herself - precisely to avoid a politically damaging public tiff. Either way, the error is not to have a small council meeting before the larger Lords' conference.
Yeah I think Sansa was questioning his judgment making Jon look weak. If he was to change his mind that would make him look even weaker. Maybe they should have the discussions before the meetings so it wouldn't come as a shock but Jon was right to shut it down like that.
remember that this is a sibling dynamic - Sansa grew up with far more status than John on one hand because she's a legitimate Stark ... add to this LF's whispering this very thing to her .. right or not it's just an interaction and it's not like the North was lost over it ... I think John explained himself and what the issue with what she did was - she sees herself as an equal BECAUSE she's a full Stark ... that's all - so calm the fuck down - if her behavior continues then perhaps have a fit ... but otherwise just shut it
since when does marriage change your DNA? she's a Stark by birth my dear and no marriage changes that ... apparently you skipped biology class and believe Biblical nonsense that a woman belongs to her husband or something?
;-) ... yes - yes he can ... and this being the open internet means I can respond in whatever way I want as well ... the shut it was a general thing since this whole argument is over a character that is only doing what the script tells her to do & has gotten way the fuck out of hand ...
I don't get why everyone is making a big deal out of that scene? Should Sansa have questioned Jon in front of the northern nobles? No. But you can clearly see that Jon simply does not listen to her in any circumstances we've seen, and speaking out like this seems to just be Sansa trying to help and get Jon to listen to her advice. Everything Sansa does gets blown out of proportion tbh and it's annoying as shit. She's not evil or some machiavellian genius, she's just trying to do the best for herself, the north, and her family.
Jackerco: If that was the case she would have accepted the leadership-role when Jon offered her that. Then she certainly would not have called Jon a Stark, or told Jon to take their parents chambers. Then one of the first things she said to Bran wouldn't have been that he is the rightful Lord of Winterfell. Then she would have taken the Northern Lords up on their calls for her to be Queen instead of Jon etc. I get it people find her overall attitude kind of irritating, but she is not this 'power hungry-cersei like' lady a lot of people make her out to be..
"Then one of the first things she said to Bran wouldn't have been that he is the rightful Lord of Winterfell." Except she wasn't ruler of Winterfell, that was Jon's post. So when Bran came back, she essentially was offering Bran's Jon's position.
There is a difference between King in the North and Lord/Lady of Winterfell. Jon is King, Sansa is Lady. Just like Lord Glover, Lady Mormont, Lord Manderly etc. Jon overrules all of them. So Sansa wasn't offering Jon's position as King but her own position as Lady of Winterfell.
Which makes it even more despicable that the "Lady" didn't have enough respect for her liege lord to not undermine him in public, and at the same time, sow seeds of treachery to Glover and Royce so they would later feel embolden enough (because of Sansa's criticisms) to publically talk open treason about Jon
Sansa's response is because she believes that she should be the true leader, it goes back to when they grew up, while Arya loved Jon while Sansa always made Jon seem like he wasn't part of the family. Jon's response was right because if he takes the castles from the Karstarks and the Umber then he would also have to take it from the Manderlays and from the Glovers and anyone else who didn't line up with him which would divide the north again.
preach. i agree with like 99% of this, but i don't think jon was wrong to keep the umbers and the karstarks in their keeps. i think sansa has a point about the lack of rewards for the faithful, but this is about to be a fight between the living and the dead. jon needs every one to band together to win. a united north. i hope that his leniency doesn't come back to bite him, but i still don't think it was the wrong call.
If anything, they should have discussed the issue BEFOREHAND. But in regard to Punishments and rewards I have to agree with Sansa because it all boils down to one thing, Trust. Trust is like a needle in a haystack. hard to acquire and very easy to lose. By fighting for the Boltons the Umbers and Karstarks betrayed that trust. They have to be made to work to earn back that trust as well as their seats. Because if they betrayed them once they can do it again especially if they are allowed to retain their power. Before the Red Wedding, the Boltons rebelled twice against the Starks and the Starks forgave them twice. Well, we saw how that turned out. By letting them off easy it encouraged other houses like the Glovers to defy him later. Remember Julius Caesar, a man who was lenient towards those who fought against him. Long story short it didn't end well for him. His heir Augustus learned from that mistake.
"When your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you." - Tywin Lannister
I don't believe Sansa has done anything wrong in the premier. Sansa is frustrated with Jon. (And rightfully so) he died for honor and still he is making the same mistake that Ned and Robb did. He also never takes her advise even though she spent most of her life with the best of the players and yet he never ask how they play. She also holds trauma from the fact that these are the relatives of the men who betrayed and fought alongside her abuser! And gave her brother up! Jon wasn't a jerk, but he is stubborn..stubborn like Ned who wouldn't listen to Varys. Stubborn like Robb who wouldn't listen to Cat. And look where they are....dead. She's just trying to prevent that. And maybe that means being aggressive.
Bridget hammond She learned from the best players who play the game like total scumbags. Cersei, Littlefinger and Ramsey is who she "learned" from and they're the most scummy, sorry, lowdown dogs in all of Westeros. I agree Jon has to be smarter than Ned and Rob but he doesn't have to stoop to the level of LF or Cersei. In my opinion, the way to play is somewhere in the middle. Keep you honor while making some tough decisions and listening to good council.
Sansa is right about Jon not being like Ned and Robb and making stupid mistakes, but she should NOT disagree with him in public in front of all the lords and ladies. That is NOT okay, and that undermines his authority and plants doubts in the minds of his subjects that he has authority. That was absolutely the wrong thing to do. You simply DON'T do that. She can disagree in private. But in public, present a united front.
I think that what Sansa does is "play the game" and Jon doesn't see leadership as a game at all, you can say she is trying to help him but I disagree, Sansa isn't concerned about her family just look at how quickly she accepted Rickon's death (the night before he died, even Cersei didn't stop caring about Tommen until he was dead) Sansa is concerned about Sansa, and I have yet to see any evidence that she is on Jon's side.. It's almost like Jon is being set up to be stabbed in the back, but people were so excited for a Stark reunion that we are blind to all the foreshadowing...
Bridget hammond Little finger and varys have been threatened even though they are still alive but how much longer? You don't want to keep putting fear into your subjects or they will secretly over throw you and kill you. Don't want to be like tywin's father either.
Conflated GoT arguments after just one episode? We really are back! LOL Kudos to you, Kevin, for taking on such a hot topic. And yep, two totally separate arguments were at play: the way things unfolded (your focus here) and whether J or S was correct. I just did another re-watch and realized because of all the constraints of the medium, there's so much we miss. But S Turner did a great job projecting one thing: Weariness. Trauma. In both she and Cersei's characters is where picked up that under emphasized reality. I agree with you that her arguing was wrong and also caste her as weak/questionable. But as the following scenes demonstrated superbly, she's still scared, traumatized, etc. And you're so right too: Proper communication could've saved 90% of the characters in our story! As far as whose idea was best, I was delightfully smitten at first. They both made great points! But Jon's lines about "removing a family from their ancestral home" highlighted the awful reality both J + S were, literally, just in; and "not holding kids accountable for the fathers' actions" was clearly a self-reflection. Empathy amongst sociopaths! A true Stark trait. Great video! See you later this week! p.s. I can't believe you're a self declared Cersei fan! Boo-Boo! jk
Here is what I think. . . . I see sansa point in calling out jon in front of everyone ( don't agree with what she did) but, I get that her brother jon who is the king of the North, never takes sansa into consideration in anything. He doesn't ask what she thinks ( even though she knows how all these people think and are. . such as Ramsey, and in this case Cersi). Jon doesn't see the value in what she has to say and all she is looking for is for Jon to take some advice in something she has to say. She called him out in front of everyone because she does not see him as a king but as a brother. And siblings do squabble. Don't agree it would be in front of everyone but, she is looking for Jon to take some recognition in what she has to say and consider her. And even more, for him to listen, see she is right and for everyone to see, that she has a point. I do think Jon did the right think in keeping the Karstarks and the Umbers. For the bigger picture is to unite everyone and to defeat the real enemy and not each other. In taking the homes from it's descendents would of not unite everyone but, hold grudges and they don't have time for that. Jon sees that it's better to work as one, especially that winter is here.
I don't understand what makes Sansa such a great adviser? What has she yet accomplished diplomatically that would make Jon want to heed her advice ? Not to mention she claims that she learnt " a great deal from cersei" and we all know how well cersei and her family is doing,so that's actually a negative.
Melly Mel Alright first of all Sansa could have said something during Jon's war council, it's a war council no one really asks for input you, you just throw what you have to say out their, Tormund threw his input out and Jon didn't ask and Davos did the same thing. Second Sansa didn't give any good advice nor did she mention that the Vale might join. If your in the army don't you think it would be nice to know if you might receive air support or not so you can change your tactics up a bit. Now they finally have taken winterfell and Jon has been declared King in the North she decides to weaken his rule by taking the first chance she has by making the most hypocritical stance she could take. Now don't get me wrong Jon does need to get a small council together but at the same time Sansa is bringing Jon down just like Caitlyn brought Rob down.
These are some weak reasons. If Jon had knowledge of the Vale possibly coming to help he could have worked with that, and even delayed his attack. I don't get it. How could telling a dude three feet away from who's actually fighting the battle be a security risk, but maneuvering with a known treacherous rat in Littlefinger not? That doesn't even make any sense. There was no strategic value in her withholding that from Jon apart from her own reservations in trusting him.
She isn't. Yet. Taking Winterfell was her idea, but that wasn't a tactical move. It was an ambition. Withholding information about the Vale was dumb and could have gotten Jon killed, and arguing with him in front of his men is also dumb. Nothing breeds disloyalty like attacking the leader. Sansa is convinced that she's smarter than everyone else, but has yet advised Jon in a way that will push him towards his goal. Preparing the North for the Long Night.
Now that Sansa has control of the North while Jon is gone (and maybe never return) I think Bran will question her in the same public manner that she questioned Jon at some point in the future. Or he could just roll his eyes back and make her say whatever he wants.
I agree with you. Sansa was out of line. However I also oppose her on grounds of taking lands from the Karstarks and Umbers because punishing children for the sins of the fathers is not the Northern ways. It is the Southern way. Who knows, maybe her time along the Southerners had more adverse affects for Sansa than expected.
the thing is, that was the last moment she could have changed his decision, so she needed to say it at that moment. sansa is jons advisor at that moment so she has to give him advice, and when he doesn't reveal his plans towards her before the meeting she has to give him advise during the meetiing.
a good king needs good advice and a good advisor doesn't stop when the king says no, otherwise KL would have burned down by daenerys several times. and you cant compare sansas role with that of a bannerman, sansa is his advisor and his sister. in my opinion jon was the problem in that situation, he should have shared his plan to her in a private meeting and not revealing it to her in front of the lords.
Honestly, I think Jon was right in the argument because there's no need to punish children for the crimes of their fathers and they need to make sure that those houses stick with them, rather than pushing them away. They need as many people as possible.
lady Mormont has all the right to speak up against lord Glover because they are equals, . Lady Mormont is the leader of her House and so is Lord Glover. Sansa is beneath John , she's not the queen
Half agree with you. It wasn’t her place to question Jon’s choice and she stated very logical reasons behind her thinking and honestly Jon needs to wise up regarding some enemies however I stand with Lord Snow in this one,the crimes of the fathers shouldn’t be payed by the sons.Taking those castles from Lady Karstark and Lord Umber would probably breed two more enemies to the Starks. Sansa should understand that specially when her ancestral castle was taken away from her. Keep it up bro,great work!
No Catelyn Stark who not do that but she is the weakest Stark and not the smartest to begin with. She did so many things wrong, because of her naive little girl mentality Ned Stark lost his head! Begging to marry her off to Geoffrey while she didn't know him, is stupid! Ignoring the fact that Geoffrey is a maniac because she wanted to become Queen is stupid. Challenging Jon Snow's leadership is stupid to especially with the other Northern Houses are there looking at you, Sansa makes her brother look like a fool. When Jon ask her not to tell that he is a Targaryen she doesn't respect Jon! She can't even be happy for her little brother Bran that he sits on the Throne, all she says is yeah! The North will be independent so she can be Queen! Haven't you learned anything Sansa? You wanted to be Queen for all the wrong reasons and you never did anything to earn it! Daenerys fought to save your home and you can't even thank her! You're brother Jon confided in you but you go against his wishes when he clearly says : Don't tell! She is one of the most boring and bitchiest character ever! Where was your mouth and voice when you were against Cersei? You never stood up for yourself. You had so many chances to kill her or plot against her, after your father lost his head because you begged him to confess. I totally lost my respect for you!
Not a fan of Sansa anymore. She could've easily killed Jon by hiding info from him and now she is questioning everything he says despite HIM being king in the north. She also is praised for "outsmarting littlefinger" by many, however, she's not done much the only reason she appears smart is because littlefinger is acting stupid due to his love for her.
I wonder if she was just baiting Littlefinger. I feel Sansa is aware enough to realize what challenging Jon in front of the northerners meant. Either this was much more deliberate on her part, because she is baiting Baelish. Or the writers are adding conflict and tension for the sake of conflict and tension. And D and D are dumb enough to do that.
I think even if she said that at the meeting, nobody would question her because she is the key to the north meaning she is the heir to winterfell and not jon due to being a bastard and also she has become very protective sister which is why she acted that way. Sansa has lost her father, mother and elder brother as a result making her more careful with jon even if jon doesn't like her way of speaking.
Its called not washing your laundry in public (especially with a figure of authority)!!! I hate when people start with a gender thing on every oppurtunity :(((
Sometimes it **is** about gender, and they address that on this show all the time (even though this show is supposed to take place in a "medieval" world with VERY different gender norms than we have now). But the way Twitter and the Blogosphere try to turn every...little...thing into a gender/social justice/whatever talking point at the slightest opportunity is just tiring. Many times, it's just belligerence. They just want to argue. They want the opportunity to call someone a "sexist" or talk about patriarchy even if it doesn't even apply, or it wasn't even intended. With Lyanna Mormont, Brienne, Dany, Arya, Yara, Olenna, etc. all on this show, all strong female characters, I'd argue that the show has gone out of its way to even the odds, so to speak (I'd add Cersei here too, but she's crazy). So the angry people on Twitter have to grasp something....anything....to complain about. They grasped onto this moment.
Sansa is useless and doesn't deserve to be queen in the north, why would any of the other 6 kingdoms remain when the north gets to be independent? She has ambition of her own, it was seen on her face at the succession moot, she wanted the throne, after the real heroes did all the hard work she thought it would just fall in her lap, she was waiting for it. Shes been through some shit, yes, but that alone doesn't give her the right to take the reins. She has done literally nothing, not even at the BotB, it was littlefinger who influenced the knights of the Vale to arrive, not sansa. Why is it ok to honor SOME traditions (like the stark family still having dibs on "ruling" the north) and ok to discard others (the union of the north with the continent)?? "the north will stay independent like it has for thousands of years" ok so I guess that would apply to the other 6 kingdoms then as well, fucking bollox m8. The union of the 7 kingdoms is a step in the right direction, the consolidation of forces, King bobby B in season 1 even alluded to the promise of a strong unified continent through a standing army. sansa actively went in the other direction, fucking twat. It just doesn't make sense, why would any of the other 6 kingdoms remain? yara wont have it, nor dorne, nor many in essos. ELECT kings??
Sansa speaking out in front of whole Northern group gives impression there is not unity in monarchy and that King is weak...that sort of council should always be done in private. She is undermining him, whether she wants to or not...she showed the Northern lords that she is inexperienced and disrespectful and worst of all that Jon is weak.
How am I seeing this three years later. We are trained as adults how to talk to coworkers and how to resolve issues especially with superiors. It is this exact situation. You are supposed to voice your opinion but then any more arguments should be done privately. It looks better on both parties. Her bickering actually makes house Stark look weak. Personally I feel that this was a power play on Sansa part. She feels that she should be Queen over Jon as she brought in the Vale and She is true born. However I also feel if I were any Northern lord who agreed to fight for her and she didn’t tell anyone about the Vale army after her brother asked her for her advice and urged her for anymore information and she stayed quiet, I would want her tried for treason. Had she revealed that the Vale was close battle plans would have been different and more Northern lives would have been saved. I also think Jon made the right decision there as well. They need allies. They need living people. There is no need to kill children and now they have two people who are grateful and loyal to house Stark and to Jon in particular. Again because I believe from reading the books that Sansa’s storyline is to become the ultimate player I think she knows that too As a female I believe that feminism means that men and woman are the same. Which means we are equally as strong as leaders and we can be as equally fucked up, we can be as equally good and be as equally bad. Just because Sansa is a strong female and a Stark doesn’t mean she is inherently a good person. She has learned to be mean and tricky and not to trust people. She has gone through hell, some from her own making, she is not an innocent flower. She has made some pretty awful mistakes and has made them time and time again. That is what make her one of the most intelligent and interesting characters. However she is not redeemable and she is definitely going after Jon and after power in this scene. She wants people to know Jon is weak and She is not. She continues that, she knows Jon is Ned’s son and will always blindly protect her. It is a shame that D&D didn’t l didn’t add Robb’s will because it would make Sansa look bad. They wouldn’t make Sansa look bad because they wanted that savior Queen in the end. That is why they never explain why she reveals Jon’s secret in the end after he fights two wars to save her life and is about to fight a third and install a queen that at that point didn’t want to kill her. Robb’s will names Jon a Stark and hire to Winterfell, it also disinherited Sansa so that the Lannisters would not get it. It would have made more sense as to why Jon, the bastard got to be king over Sansa the true born. It would also have made more sense as to why Sansa is angry at Jon. THe sad part is because of the rush instead of the explanation being Jon is the rightful heir, he also has done a ton of work organizing the wall and bringing in extra food and fortification for winter and protection for the North, bringing together the Northerns with the free folk; D&D leaves it too Jon has a penis so Jon gets to be king. Which creates gender bias instead of staying to the true meaning of the story which is Power, how do people get it, what do they do with it once that get it and who should have it. What makes a good leader and what happens to those who follow under good leadership
Sansa was trying to help Jon and stop him from making what she saw as a naive decision. Jon was making the decision in public, so Sansa had to discuss it in public. What was she supposed to do?? Say "Wait Jon! Let's talk in private for a sec." Or if he already promised the castles to the heirs in public, Sansa would have no opportunity to give her opinion. She was trying to HELP Jon. Stop pointlessly antagonizing Sansa
I was thinking more along the line that Sansa forced Jon to defend his way of thinking and thus MADE the other houses respect him more for it. She is making him explain his belif ( in an undermining way just as LF thought her, ) while at the same time staying true to herself as well.
I disagree with Sansa for a complete opposite reason. I think she DID have the right to speak out as the only Stark in the room (even though it would have been better to speak to Jon about it personally, beforehand). I disagree, because I think her position was wrong. I'm assuming she had seen Ned Umber and Alys Karstark before. How could she honestly think it to be a good idea to kick two children out of their family homes, after she had JUST retaken hers? You could see how relieved the two were after pledging their allegiance. You think THEY are going to betray the Starks again? Sansa has learned from Cersei and a small part of the lion has taken over her inner wolf. "The more people you love, the weaker you are". The only one Sansa loves right now, and not sufficiently in my opinion, is Jon. I can't imagine how the situation will be once BRAN or Arya return to Winterfell. King's Landing changed her. She once trusted Cersei and Littlefinger, now she can't trust anyone anymore
They might not betray the Starks, but they are children who are now supposed to keep grown men in their family in check. Who cares what they want or feel if those men decide to kill those kids and revolt anyway.
Jon in this instance was morally right whereas Sansa's idea was the more tactical and "smart" of the two. But to question him like that in front of his bannermen makes him appear weak and invites more challenges to his rule. The intelligent thing to do would have been to tell him her opinion before or after the meeting. On the plus side, I thought Jon backed up his decision quite well. I especially liked when he said that the punishment for treason is death in response to her saying that there is none and then saying that they all died on the battlefield
I like songs a to but that doesn't mean she didn't screw it up right here. You can like someone and admit that they make a mistake. Why do people these days think that if you admit someone makes a mistake you just don't like them or don't stand for them? I don't understand how we've lost the grey area completely after the last few years and we're all back to black and white
460mas You shouldn't hate/dislike a character because of their fans but because of their actions.. She made a lot of mistakes and is far from perfect but she has also done good things and was likeable in many scenes. She's really realistic and her character is interesting.
Agreed. Sansa's idea was right, but the way she delivered it was bad. But then again, I read some comments down below, and one of them pointed out that the scene is not very far apart from the time Jon was named the King. Jon has been the bastard brother for Sansa for years. She is not used to have him as someone to follow. And she wanted to be heard. She has a lot to learn, and she already has learned. Petyr seemed quite pleased by what she did. She has learned from the wrong people, and most probably will make a really bad mistake at some point.
Exactly. It was all about her poor tact in delivering it that makes it 100 percent wrong. The scene was at least a week or so from Episode 10 (my guess -- the characters in both scenes aren't all the same). I get that she wants to be heard, but she's been around monarchs constantly to know that she can't just argue like that in public. She said it herself - Joffrey didn't let anyone argue. Sure, made him a bad king to never have anyone question him, but that was one thing he did as a king that was right: he was firm in his stance. I'm fine with Sansa smacking the crap out of Jon behind closed doors, but not in public. The North needs a strong leader now more than ever. Petyr is trying to get those seeds of discontent sewn. I don't think Sansa will take the bait, and instead trap him :)
Someone said two weeks? Not sure. But yeah, The North really needs a strong leader and I hope Sansa understands that soon. And the part with Petyr in the next episode trailer is promising! Anyway, I wanted to add another thing. I watched some other videos and thought I would bring it up here, too. Maybe someone has already, but anyway. How did Euron and Daenerys not see each others fleets? Because Dragonstone is not far from King's Landing and they were there around the same time. Also why didn't Euron take over Dragonstone? And why did they let Daenerys just walk up there without no one checking if there was anyone there. She could have been easily attacked.
I almost agree completely, except that I believe Jon was 100% right about everything. Including his decisión to let those houses keep their ancestral homes. Thats the type of leader that Jon has always been
Can't argue! Jon may be totally right. Sansa's plan was more politically savvy probably, BUT it's hard to argue that keeping two of the largest houses in the North happy was a BAD move (Umber and Karstark)
Justin Smegelsky yep. Maybe from now on Jon will include her in his thoughts and seek advice. Or at least listen what she has to say. I agree with sansa, he needs to.be smarter than their father and brother. If the enemy already knows what knows what moves he will make, they are doomed.
Actually, it was a smart decision by Jon, because they didn't need more castles to help defend the army of the dead they needed more men. If he had taken away their family homes would they have fought for him when the night king showed up? God bless everyone.
Orlando Williams they won't have time to rebel. They will be more concentrated on the whites coming their way. Better to ban the North and everyone together than to fight between themselves.
Orlando Williams they rebelled becsuse Robb killed the lord of karstark and Jon let wildlings through the wall without official permission from the warden of the north.
They would have rebelled if their home was taken from them taking sansa's advice into consideration. Jon did right thing by saying "shut up bitch!" Kinda way..
And the moment you mentioned Catelyn questioning Ned in any situation (ever!!), my mind immediately jumped to the moment in the tent with Robb and the Northern Lords in Season 1 Episode 8. Where - Catelyn attempted to question Robb's decision to let the scout go, but the moment he looked back at her she thought better of it, and let him make the choice...
EXACTLY If you try to speak out and the King/monarch stares you down, you need to just shut your face and talk in private later. Arguing with them is the WRONG move.
I agree. I'm writing a fanfiction based on GOT, but with its own region, families and histories where there is a similar situation. To make a long story short here, with the start of the war the lord of my keep leaves his family in the care of a trusted sentinel who is all refined, skilled and powerful. A man perceived to be of low birth who came to them a mercenary some years ago; giving him command of the hold. For a situation one of their people was imprisoned, and the sentinel refused his release. Technically, the lady has more authority than the former mercenary, but does not question his decisions openly, only bringing up her opinion later. With the reason: "Men lost respect and authority when they were questioned by women, no matter their status or position."
When did Jon give her the chance to voice her council in private? He forced her to do it in public because he didn't ask for his advisors opinions before he made his decision.
there is a difference, you have a small counsel to advise you on these matters "but John didnt have a small Counsel set up yet for him to take advice" "Than your simply out of luck" people need to remember the Kings say is absolute, if you dont like it you kill him and all his lineage or you leave. John would never do this but by all rights since he was named King by conquest and not by hereditary line he could litterally take Sansa outback to have her beheaded, the way its technically set up the rest of the Stark children are now bastards interms of there right to sit at the throne in the case of johns death. John Stark is not king, John Snow is the king. This may play out in the story later on because Johns Kingship is more like Robert Baratheon Rebellion than it is like Joffrey and Tommen Lannisters Kingships. John is not named King because hes the son of Eddard Stark no matter how many times lady lyanna says that line.
At first, I supported Sansa on the matter but thought she was rude by objecting him. Now when I think about it, I think it's not *that* bad. I mean, northeners are the most insolent bannermen in the entire show. They argue aloud with their lords. Remember Greatjon Umber. If they have a right to do so, why wouldn't Sansa, his half sister, trueborn daughter of Ned Stark? She saved Jon's life along with everyone else's, doesn't she deserve to speak at least, if she was already denied of her title of the Queen in the North? She saved them, and she is the oldest trueborn Stark. She deserves to speak, even in an insolent way. And *especially* if she's right on the matter. But Jon doesn't want to listen. He never does. The problem isn't with Sansa being insolent here. The problem is Jon's pride so he doesn't want to let anyone speak. He proved that later when he talked with Sansa alone. When she asked him to listen to her *advices* ( *not commands!* ), he didn't want to. She asked if that would be so terrible. I know why it is. What, she's a woman so she can't say anything useful? I don't support Sansa just because she's a woman. I support her because she's the most experienced northern politician, if not the only one. If Jon made his decision final in front of everyone, and later changed it, people would question his leadership. Sansa *had to* persuade him *before* letting him make his decision final. She just had to.
Honestly I agree with Jon, I think that you can't punish people for the actions of their relatives. The Umbers and the Karstarks were loyal to house Stark for hundreds of years and just because one member of the family wasn't loyal you punish the whole house? The Umbers fought against Jon because he had a wildling army, not because they weren't loyal to the Starks. And as for the Karstarks they were obviously blinded by the fact that Robb killed their liege lord. But it's a new era of Starks as well as a new era of Karstarks and Umbers, what Jon did in my opinion was the right thing to do, and if they rebel again then you can give their castles to someone else. And overall, I can see why many of the other houses fought with the Boltons, it's hard to side with the "Starks" when one is a bastard and another was married twice including to Ramsey. And many in the North hate the wildlings, like the Umbers, so of course they're gonna fight against them. It's easy to say that every house should have sided with Jon and Sansa but from their point of view it made more sense to not fight for the Starks. And what about Lord Glover? He didn't support the Starks, he even said House Stark is dead but you don't see anyone getting mad at him.
@TheBattProductions Man i have to say you are becoming one of my fav GOT UA-camr. I was waiting for someone to make a video about this scene and to be honest i thought that it was going to be Preston Jacobs but he actually defended Sansa in his episode 1 review. I totally agree with you that Sansa was wrong to question Jon in front of all the Northern Lords and Ladies ( not to mention that the Lords of the Vale were there too ). I understand what she was trying to do, punish the Houses that betrayed them and fought on Ramsay's side but she made Jon look like a weak leader who's orders can be questioned and challenged. Jon was able to save face by basically telling Sansa that she doesn't get to decide what's going to happen to the Umbers and the Karstarks and he was lucky that the Northern Lords ended up supporting his decision. Sansa is trying to be like Littlefinger but she fails to realize that Littlefinger does not force his opinions on others, he manipulates those in power and acts like he is just trying to help them and he does it in a way that does not challenge the power and authority of the person in power ( may it be a High Lord such as Tywin Lannister, a King such as Joffrey or even a stupid kid who is the Lord of the Vale ). Littlefinger is always very polite when he is giving advice to others and he does that behind closed doors, not in front of the whole world to see. Sansa was arrogant in that scene and very confrontational, had she been more polite and respectful while sharing her thoughts on the matter... Jon might've even listened to her. Anyway great video man. Thank you for taking the time to talk about this and keep up the good work.
Thank you Julian. I really appreciate those nice words. The topic wasn't a big deal to me until I saw so much talk on Twitter and it made my blood boil because I think it's just obvious that Sansa was wrong in what she did. Exactly: Sansa doesn't know how to handle her new position of power. She wants to do things like Cersei has done in KL, but that's not what the North needs. She's right in reinforcing loyalty, but she's wrong because she wants to OUTCAST two of the strongest houses in the North. Jon has a great point frankly by keeping them installed at Last Hearth and Karhold. Jon however does need to start asking others for advice rather than doing everything himself. He can learn things from Sansa. Thank you again Julian!
Oh yeah, and I'll just leave this here, for people who think Jon isn't at fault for the way he conducts himself. Jon Snow: "You are my sister, but I am King now..." Tywin Lannister: "Any man who must say 'I am the king' is no true king."
It's a manipulated quote, in my opinion. -When Joff said that, he was trying to say "I CAN DO WHAT I WANT! I AM THE KING! BAHAHAHAH" -When Jon said it, he was reminding Sansa of the newly established roles they have. Jon is King in the North & Lord of Winterfell. Sansa is just his sister. Intent of the statement is very, very important.
"It's a manipulated quote, in my opinion" What does that even mean? - When Joffrey said that he was saying I have the ultimate authority here, which is what Jon is saying to Sansa. - "Sansa is just his sister...' That's not dismissive is it?... The intent was the same, regardless of how anyone tries to spin it.
Jon said: "This is my decision and my decision is final." Sansa and Davos are supposed to be Jon's advisors (he has them both sitting beside him at that table). However, it seems he spoke to neither of them while coming to his decision. (Look at Davos's face. He looked surprised and concerned.) And, I believe if Sansa already knew his decision she wouldn't have "undermined" him by daring to speak during his meeting. It sounds exactly like Jon is saying "I'm king now and I will do what I want" because that is EXACTLY what he did.
OMG, thank you for making this video. I was so pissed at Sansa. Even though she made many valuable points, she compromised Jon's position as KotN. If his own sister/cousin can't respect his authority, then why should anyone in that room? Would Sansa have been cool if JON did that to HER?
Jack Challenge It isn't the time to really divide the spoils of war and with what Jon did he set up the possibility of a Mormont and Umber wedding rewarding his most loyal supporter Lady Lyanna Mormont, and if you read the books a possible marriage of Tormunds son to Alys Karstark thus providing the Wildlings a home and rebuilding the Karstark forces depleted by 2 back to back wars and the loss of all it's male heirs at this point. There is still so much that can be done, but again really irrelevant at this point if they don't stop the Night King which it seems Sansa doesn't even care nor believe in at this point. Playing the Game of Thrones so not appropriate at this moment when they could all die and we're speaking all of Westeros here not just the North.
The only reason I side with Sansa in this matter is Jon is a bad communicator. He's not dumb by any means, however he is severely lacking in communication skills, which isn't entirely his fault. Sansa didn't start off the argument being rude or particularly overbearing. She was correct in her thinking in my opinion, as was Jon. Because of their perspectives and goals they are both correct in their opinions, however Jon had the air of a parent who is aware that they are wrong, but just keep repeating no for the sake of saying no. He basically listened to her, and without much explanation, said "Yeah, good point and all, but your opinion is irrelevant, I'm King of the North so I know what's best." Which I don't believe he intended to portray, but due to his lack of communication skills I think it's harder for him to effectively express how he feels about certain issues. Especially when put in a power position he never really wanted.
Thought this too. Sansa has been in the South for far too long (she never really cared for the Northern customs to begin with while she was still in Winterfell, imo), and her ideas are heavily influenced by the Lannisters. Giving away lands and castles to loyal supporters? That's something the Southern folks do, but not the North, not the Stark's. If I remember correctly, the Bolton's had a disagreement with the Stark's or went into open rebellion (can't remember which exactly), but the Stark's made them bend the knee and swear fealty. They never stripped them of their ranks, lands, and titles. It worked. The Bolton's may have turned one them in this generation, but it took several others before the instance happened again, and we all know Roose Bolton was driven by greed when the golden opportunity came - otherwise they'd still be allied with the Stark's. What I'm saying is, Northerner's, the Stark's especially are not vindictive - not in the way the Southern people are. It's why they've held power for so long and are beloved by their people. Sansa better get with the program. Stat!
Thank you! Sansa was very much like Catelyn, she looked down on people she deemed unworthy. I hated Catelyn and I'm growing to hate Sansa even more. Sansa wants to be the fairytale princess and she doesn't care who she has to step on or lie to in order to get it.
Being called a politician is not, rpt. NOT a compliment. I can think of few worse criticisms. Being a piano player in a whorehouse is more noble than being a politician. Politicians lie, cheat, steal, condone dishonesty and murder if it gets them what they want: Power. Honor makes you do the right things for the right reasons. Ned was naive, but he was a far better man than the southern kings were. He did his duty to marry a horrible woman, and she had a horrible daughter (*and one who was great) but Sansa deserves no praise. She gets thanks for helping bring in the Vale, but criticism for being secretive about it in the first place.
my question is: if cercei and jaimie knew that daenerys plan was to travel to dragonstone, why is no one there to defend it? euron must have passed it, right?
I think what people don't understand is that Jon Snow is, in fact, king. The Northerners act differently than the Southerners, but the same rules apply to all leaders: You don't question their power in public. If you do, two things will immediately happen. Either the ruler looks weak to his lessers and backs down from you, or you get your feelings hurt by the ruler himself. You don't put the ruler in that situation, no matter what. This especially applies when the ruler is of your own kin, because you are both supposed to be better than that together.
well maybe if Jon wasn't a idiot and would have talked to Sansa or his advisory before announcing such things she wouldn't have to go against him in public.
Well, maybe if you realized that as King, Jon was under no obligation to even accept advice. Sure, kings should accept advice, but the very title of king itself specifies that you're the head ruler and under no obligations to listen to others. So get off that "JOn's an idiot" position. Rob didn't stand for such disrespect (and no, Rob didn't fall because he was arrogant to his bannerman; he fell because his mother undermined his rule by letting Jaime go) and neither should Jon either.
Sansa pushed a boundary that was very inappropriate. Yes, Jon yelled at Sansa but she wasn't listening and thus he had to shut her up because he has the authority in the counsel to do so. Her challenging Jon reminds me a LOT like Cersei challenging anyone who has power. I believe that Sansa subconsciously inherited the boundary pushing/challenging nature from the Lannisters during her time in King's Landing. What Sansa witnessed in King's Landing (behavior wise) has now caught onto her behaviour. Even though she learnt her enemies' mistakes in the game, she has now to learn how not be like the Lannisters in her developing character. I hope that makes sense lol.
When could have Sansa argued her point then? First of all, I don't think that gathering was meant as just an announcement of Jon's plans or orders moving forward. It was a huddle. Discussion was to be expected. Jon should expect opposing opinions, and if he didn't want it from Sansa, he should have had a meeting with her before the actual gathering. Don't you think this is what riled her up? Another point, Northerners have a different sense of monarchy and ruling. At least with regards to somewhat "impromptu" proclamations like with Robb's and now Jon's. Jon is king, but the king's rule is not handled the same as in the South where it's treason to show dissent toward the king and anything he says. The Northerners have always been fiercely loyal but they have also been fiercely vocal and opinionated. When you think about that bit of nuance when you're contemplating Sansa's actions you'd understand why she did it. Also, this is what exactly a small council is for-a chance for Jon to run his plans through a group of his advisers before making a somewhat big move. Well, in an ideal world at least where rulers listen to counsel. Jon, being who he is, we expect him to be that kind of ruler. Since we don't see Jon discussing with advisers beforehand, the gatherings with the Northern lords can be the closest thing to that. I think that's where Sansa's Joffrey comment came from, although she did retract it. As for the sexism arguments against you, I think it's stemming from the fact that, come on, if you're really being honest, if that comment from Sansa came instead from someone like Robb (which, hey, if he was alive that would be plausible when you think about what he did with the Karstarks) or a similar MALE figure in Jon's life. People would 100% react differently. Then it would just be treated as just a couple of headstrong men butting heads in the war room. Something that can be expected when emotions are running high and the stakes are even higher. But since it's Sansa, someone whose identity people still define based on her actions as a young manipulated, isolated, powerless child years and years ago, it comes off as something so off putting. It's so jarring because people obviously have their own set of expectations for her, expectations that you'd be lying if you don't admit are built around people's expectations for a woman. Jon should know better. He was running lip about how they should trust each other but that should not just come from Sansa. Since last season she's been talking about how her opinions are not valued despite her obviously having legitimate, valuable opinions to give. Hence her saying, "Would that be so bad?" after Jon said "How should I do that (be smarter)? By listening to you?" That dialogue alone is so telling. I'm not saying let Sansa bark out the orders, but Jon should at least listen to her. At least if he want a better relationship with her and a stronger Stark front.
Great video. I totally agree with you. I think both of them could avoid so much trouble if they would just sit down and talk to each other honest. I think Sansa had a good point but it was just annoying that she openly argued with Jon. The discussion about fighting the war in the north or the south was stupid. I think Sana is able the find more allies and fight Cersei. So Jon can focus on the north. But these things will never happen and they will probably do more stupid stuff. I also have a question: Do you think that Bran passing the wall has done something to it?
I agree. Communication needs to pickup between the two. GREATLY. - Yes. I think the Wall is now vulnerable to the Night King using the horn of winter to knock it down. It's COMING DOWN BABAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think people are forgetting that GOT is set in a patriarchal society, it's a given. Jon was right in shutting Sansa down as she was undermining him in front of his subjects, but Sansa is coming from a place of fear & is desperate to keep House Stark safe for herself and the Stark family. Cat would not have challenged either Ned or Robb and Cat is dead, this is what Sansa knows, so she is not going to follow in her mothers footsteps, just as she is trying to warn Jon NOT to follow the example set by both her father and brother, because she knows it WILL get Jon killed. But in doing the opposite to her mother, Sansa is going to make mistakes as she did at the Council at Winterfell; wrong place to confront Jon wrong attitude....Fear is driving her and the knowledge that Jon can be reckless and make unwise decisions. Stannis warned Jon to send Thorne away & Jon ignored it and his lack of political intrigue got him killed....They are both coming from a place of fear; Jon fears the Night King while Sansa fears Cersei, they are both right. Cersei may not send her army but she may send an assassin to take out both Jon and Sansa, its not wise to underestimate ones enemy, just ask Olenna she gave Cersei the idea, "you're surrounded by enemies, what are you going to do, kill them all?" Cersei did exactly that......In these scenes both Jon and Sansa are wrong and right....Sansa needs to pick the right time and place and Jon would do well to LISTEN to Sansa rather than arbitrarily dismissing her.....Sansa has 'frenemy' zoned Baelish & she knows how dangerous he can be, we will see how Jon handles Littlefinger next week.....I hope my post makes some sense :)
patriarchal system is Westeros you are right in the line of successions it is always the males. The Lordship should go to Sansa because her trueborn status. In the succession of the crown it always goes to the males heirs first they always try find a second cousin male to the throne before it will be given to woman. If there is no choice a castle will go to female heir.
assuming the North resumed Robb Stark's kingdom then no Sansa was disinherited and is not in line of succession. she would not be in line of succession anyway as she is a Bolton or a Lannister by marriage making her offspring the next in line for Winterfell if she had children. Jon seemed to be picked because he had an army, he led the coalition to victory and he was recognized as the leader, the King they would follow. also if they elected Sansa as leader then it would be a queendom not a kingdom. the system looks for the next male to be a lord there were no legitimate ones left so by declaring him king is as good as legitimizing his right to rule. Sansa offers nothing but Winterfell through marriage. she is entitled to nothing after being married. in other words her claim has been taken by the Lannisters and the Boltons. Arya makes more sense to be the next in line as she was a princess of Robb's Kingdom wheras Sansa was not she was barred by decree.
I think the reason Sansa says he's a good leader right after arguing with him is because of the way he explained himself. She even goes on to say that they respect him. The reason the respect him is because of the decisions he makes and the manner in which he makes them. He fully explained why he would not remove the Karstark's and Umber's ancestral homes and everyone in the hall who was touch-and-go with Sansa's argument was won over by Jon's explanation. I do agree Sansa should've not challenged Jon like this, especially not in front of everyone but I also think that because of that exchange everyone there can see Jon be challenged and see that he doesn't lose his shit like someone like Joffrey, but stands firm, keeps his ground and even better, explains why he does what he does. Jon is gonna be a good leader because he's respectable and likeable like Ned was, but he's learned from the Stark's past mistakes. As a side note, I don't think Jon was wrong with his decisions. For the same reason as to why Jon explained why.
Sansa definitely stepped out of line questioning him in front of everyone, but her points WERE valid. She KNOWS not only that Littlefinger likes her, but she clearly also knows that he is attempting to divide them - she obviously doesn't let him make his attempt to divide them ("at the moment: peace and quiet" for example) as well as refusing him the last word (which was fkn great haha). I don't think it was to put on a show for Littlefinger however, I think she truly believed in her approach (which I agree is correct) but stepped out of line executing it.
I think Jon did the right thing. The North keeps older traditions. Keeping a family in the houses they've controlled for generations is the smart thing to do, it reassures ties to that house again keeping the North together
I've been reading the Prince by Macchiavelli. Light Reading. What Jon did with the Karstarks and the Umbers, was much smarter than Sansa's choice. It's better to give your enemy or rival a chance to prove themselves to you, because they will want to show that they are more loyal than your friends. A friend will betray you much faster than a rival. What's she wanted would have caused more drama. Alys and Ned will now be more loyal to Jon than the other vassals because of this chance. I hated what Sansa did. She needs to fuckin chill. I loved this video, and I agree 100%.
They should have talk about this before, but it seems that Jon wants to rule alone without any adviser. I'm not chocked by the way they argu or how he shut her down at the meeting with the lords cause, this thing happens when there is no prep talk. I'm chocked by the way he shuts her down after the meeting when she tries to explain herself. Jon seems clearly despising the simple idea of hearing her advice. Sansa prove herself able to survive, get help and escape in a place where she was powerless in a place where his father and his staff loose their life. She gets the vale to help the north... She's smart, he needs her help. Unless he wants to end up with his own men taking turns stabbing him all over again !
No it doesn't you missed the point. She shouldn't challenge him in front of all the other lords. It makes him look stupid. She also compared the way he handled it to Joffreys ways. He had a right to shut her down afterwards.
I insist a wise king takes advices from his concil before making decisions. Jon acts like Joffrey while doing everything on his own and yelling that his the king and his decision are final. Final without taking any advice form anyone. This attitude got him killed once. Not sure Melissandre will be there next time.
Sansa became a political prisoner by her own actions and suffered less than her siblings. in fact it was her gender and her name that made her the safest person in Kings Landing due to the nature of politics. She is the key to the North by marriage, which is why Tyrion is married off to her to have a claim by blood on Winterfell when the rebellion is over. the same logic applied to the Boltons when Ramsey is married off to her to legitimize his rule through blood pact over the North. She is not a survivoir as she was more valuable alive than dead. her intelligence is a farce because she has none to speak of or she does not actually use it.
Here's my problem with Sansa, she doesn't know what it's like to be a commoner. Arya lived as Blind Beth, Weasel, Cat of the Cannals, etc. Dani, while she did lead the Dothraki, lived in an abandoned city for a good long while, and often lived among the slaves and commoners. Jon was a bastard and a brother of the Night's Watch, very few of whom were noblemen. Even Tryion lived with Bronn and Shay. Sansa doesn't know what it's like to be one of the small-folk, and therefore has less empathy for them than the previously mentioned people.
Preach!!!!! you are 100% right! Sansa is not only like her mom shes also like cersei now too. that combination is scary af and has me nervous. she needs to be team stark ffs and stay in her f in lane. the fact that hes king is enough reason for her to keep her mouth shut during an open meeting like that. even in semi private w just mel there w them at dinner Selyse said shireen needed the rod. stannis said no. selyse replied w..."as you command..." see? That's how it should be forreal forreal. Sansa should really know better. smh :/
Omg I agree with you (TheBattProduction) Sansa was SO out of line, but I can't shake the feeling she did it to get Little Finger to think he can manipulate her, and she has a bigger plan sat in motion with that action. I think/hope she has seen Little Fingers way of manipulating people to get what he wants and now she's playing him. It's a risky game to play but maybe it pays of in the end :)
yeah great example with Daenarys there. i can't stand people defending sansa so hard and making this a gender thing. Stop giving Sansa so much credit. She's been Littlefinger's tool to get up the ladder. from Joffrey's murder sansa carried the potion = peter + olenna allience; flirted kissed sansa, jealous aunt, peter killed lyza, sansa saved peter = peter owns the Vale; sold off sansa to marry ramsay = peter + roose allience; next sansa vs jon, if sansa wins peter would probably marry her = peter controls the north. We've been wanting to see "the revenge of sansa" but nope she just keeps falling for littlefinger's tricks.
Just wandered up on this video randomly, very articulate work and I totally agree. Safe to say I'm gonna binge on some more of your video, and of course subscribed. Keep it up, haha.
I think she intentionally did it to undermine him. little finger still has his hooks in her. thats going to change when she learns his role in neds death.
I'm just gunna start by saying I am a huge fan of Sansa. She's become one of my favourite characters, which is saying something because I hated her at first. I am also a feminist and call out unnecessary Patriarchal BS when I see it.
But I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU. Sansa should make her opinion heard, and Jon should take more faith in her council. However, Sansa started bickering with him during the meeting of the Northern Lords, and that is not okay regardless of her gender. The Starks more than EVER need to show a unified front, and while disagreeing with him is fine, picking a fight and undermining him in front of everyone is only going to cause tension and doubt. Ultimately they both had really good points, and there is no real right or wrong between them. I favour Sansa's opinion, however I totally see Jon's point too. But Sansa should have backed off after making her opinion known. If she wanted to discuss it in more depth, she should have done so privately.
I'm really hoping that this is all a trap she is laying for Littlefinger, because I really don't want her to slip backwards into the selfish little bitch that she was in the first season. I love her character so much now and I'll be very disappointed >
Totally, totally, totally agree with you. Excellent post, Kitty. Seriously.
Thank you! It was inspired by your excellent video ^_^
I agree with you on this but I wished Sansa would tell Jon and the other Lords what happen to in Kings Landing and that she was beaten when ever Robb won a battle.
I hope you're right about Sansa setting up Littlefinger but I don't know. I am still waffling on Sansa's loyalties and motivations.
Sansa it playing The Game of Thrones now. She is no longer a pretty little protagonist. The kingdom is hers to rule. She learned how to play the game from the failers of cersi, her dad, tyrion, and ramsy. Is she supposed to let this idealist boring (jon is the most boring character in the whole fucking series) dolt bastard command the future of her namesake and house? No, she is going to take him down and lead. Its called Game of Thrones not let my half brother bore everyone to death.
Sansa just gets worse. Unfortunately, D&D are obsessed with her, so she gets a crown... 🤢🤮
The Jon and Sansa disputes are probably going to be the most irritating parts of this season.
ElWorldClasso absolutely
Until Sansa has him killed and everyone flips out. Just wait.
that will not happen, it just doesn"t make sense with the story. sansa could betray jon, but i don"t see jon dieing again until the end game, if that
It's not a rivalry though
I think season 1 showed what happens to people like Jon, in the beginning people thought Ned Stark was going to be super important and he was betrayed by Littlefinger, and who has Sansa been learning from the most? Either Littlefinger or Cersei, and no matter how you look at it her brother is fucked, he's too honorable Sansa too clever.
People ASSUME she has learned from Littlefinger and Cersei, but is still a Stark with a commitment to family but she isn't like her father and Jon so why do we assume that?? Everyone is shaped by their environment whether they like it or not and her environment has been nothing but lies and deceit for a while, yet we assume she is good, again I ask why?
The answer to all my questions is because WE the viewer want the Starks to work together so we can't imagine one betraying another, our perspective mimic's Jon's thoughts when he told Sansa "We have to trust each other, we have so many enemies now" but what he never learned is that he shouldn't trust anyone because if you do you will probably just get killed for it.
In the Great Hall scene, Jon was absolutely respectful BUT firm while Sansa attempted railroading him. Squabbling in front of the Northern Lords is not contributing to the "cunning Sansa" she is supposedly going to be the season.
Because Joffrey (way more vicious than Jon) was never undermined by Tyrion or Tywin? I guess he got away with it because he's Tyrion fucking Lannister, right?
Again, why are people missing the part where the entire room clamored for every word Sansa said? She gave him politically sound advice, and he denied it in front of the people he is trying to keep a political hold on.
The Sovereign Joffrey wasn't really the king, mostly everything was handled by tywin as hand and by Tyrion as hand Joffrey was only a boy. Tywin even said if you think he's the most powerful person in westeros your a fool
People also clamored for Jon in the end. Let's not forget that the Karstarks turned on the Starks because Robb beheaded the Lord of Karstark. Kinda like how Robb turned on the Crown when they arrested and eventually beheaded Ned... And as someone who spent the first 4 seasons being mistreated for being "the daughter of a Traitor" in King's Landing, you'd think she wouldn't be so eager to strip children of everything because of the actions of the adults. Ultimately, Jon was right seeing as trying to unite the North(and other realms) to fight the impending frozen doom is the ABSOLUTE MOST important thing to Jon(rightfully so). But yeah Sansa, you go girl!
Nicole Tramel Agreed. Jon's decision proves that he's smarter then Ned and Robb.
Jon was right, and it's a brilliant move. He's saying ancestral homes are not to be undone by whim of current events, and it cements House Stark's position as the paramount house of The North. It prevents any other house trying to usurp them like the Boltons. Brilliant! :D
Nathan Bradley, I'm in total agreement with you. Watching the scene, I could see both arguments, but one thing forgotten is that compassion and empathy can breed loyalty as well as fear. Most times, it's even stronger! GRRM demonstrates this about northern loyalty through the Manderlys and other northern houses on-page. Perhaps in regular times, Sansa's idea would be "right." But the current situation means different rules.... Once she sees a WW, perhaps she'll be less consumed with games!
You're absolutely right!!! She's being a child by defying his authority infront of everyone. She's channeling Cersi to much, instead of her lady charm like Margery or Olenna.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Sansa Stark is a completely useless character who is completely unaware of her own complete uselessness.
dany lost her home because of robert's rebellion..u can see the result..she is out for revange..arya lost her family and home..u can see the result..she is out for revange..not letting karstarks and umber free would create another one.should use sense before giving advices..jon did right thing.. northerners will never betray mostly..karstarks and umbers betrayed starks before for a reason..now they will be loyal !
you're totally right. Sansa should have voiced her opinion in private. for me Jon made the right decision. the Boltons took Winterfell from the Starks because they were traitors on the Crown's opinion. If they didn't take it by force Jon and Sansa would have been in the same position as Alys and Ned.
thanks a lot for sharing your opinion on that subject.
Jon is King. In public, he should appear so. If Sansa has any qualms, expressing them in PRIVATE is okay. In public, absolutely NOT. The more I watch their talk after the incident, the more I think they're both acting like young siblings. Sansa's "Well Joffrey didn't let anyone question him" is petty and stupid. On the other hand, Jon listening to her concerns isn't a terrible thing. They should be a team going forward. He can focus on the Night King and she can insulate him from threats and grumbling aamong the lords. But in public, they need to appear UNITED. No more undermining, Sansa. Lock it down.
caomhan84 He said himself he doesn't want anyones input with his 'who should I listen to? You?!'
that shows openly what he thinks of her and her opinion.
They were bickering like siblings there...she was being petty and he snapped back at her. That's all that instance was. Stop trying to make this into a feminism/patriarchy thing. You're grasping at straws.
Why not? She should be doing everything to undermine her. When you play the game of thrones you either win or you die. Why should she let this idealistic loser be king? He will die just like her father. Sansa should take every step she can to remove Jon.
because 1 there on the same team and 2 if the whites win it wont matter who gets the worlds sharpest chair
Yes all hail King of the Snores, Conqueror of interest and intrigue, The Great Blandless, The one that is immune to page turning, Paragon of Generic Jon Snow!
If Sansa wanted to rule, she should have stepped up when Jon basically fucking gave it to her. Sansa constantly makes stupid decisions and does nothing to actually save herself. In this instance she was correct about giving the castles to loyal houses, but she was only right because the spiteful option happened to be the right option this time. People want to pretend Sansa is such a strong character now because she sent a raven and released some dogs. The girl hasn't done anything useful besides allowing others to do most of the work/fighting for her.
It's a lot easier to rule from the shadows than in the spotlight. Sansa wants to make big decisions, but is not confident in herself. She's trying to play the game for Jon, but not fully grasping that once she gave up her chance to get the seat of Winterfell, she also gave up the right to make decisions for it. That's Jon's responsibility now, but she's trying to push him to make the moves she wants. She's going 100 MPH, Jon is not and she can't handle it properly at the moment.
Maybe you should consider the fact that she doesn't want to rule, she just wants to be heard when her input is valuable.
remember people say jon is the jerk because he shouted down a woman and that is a bad thing for sjw's. reverse the roles and they would be saying she is empowering.
Nelcomarproductions true
The SJW vibe is growing within GoT
Thanks. we are talking about the people reacting to it and not the character. people in the real world still think that shouting down a woman is a bad thing even when they claim to be as powerful as men. know the difference between reality and fiction white knight. @chosenwolf The logic of putting down a woman over a disagreement comes form the sjws and not rational people.
Nelcomarproductions That's the reason why dany got with almost anything this whole time. lol
True lol
I think there is one big thing that everyone is forgetting during this argument is that Jon and Sansa just had a past season to fight to get there ancestral home back yet in the first episode sans wants to rip away the ancestral home for two other families. noticed no one said anything about the Bolton Castle where they can give that to someone. it wasn't about challenging 4-position it was about doing what was right and unifying the North if he would have given it away it would have divided people slightly that's why when sansa are proposed her idea some people clap but when John had them swear loyalty everyone clapped and the two heirs finally felt like they were part of the group instead of Outsiders at the time
Hey it's an interesting point!
Lady Bolton of the Dreadfort = Sansa :)
Is she still a Bolton though? Ramsay is dead, she is still married to Tyrion technically. I'm pretty sure that consummation of the marriage on the wedding night is only a Faith of the Seven thing.
Even if he's dead, technically she's still a Bolton in the same way that after Jon Arryn died, Lysa was still Lady Arryn. Also, during the Red Wedding, Robb's wife said the bedding ceremony was weird but Robb said it was tradition, therefore normal.
She could still consummate the marriage with Tyrion
but either way Sansa was a Bitch in this scene
I disagree with Sansa's plan for one reason. The houses that don't have much land also don't have many soldiers. The Karstarks and Umbers, even after the Battle of the Bastards, are still the two largest houses in The North. Sansa's plan would have likely planted the seeds of rebellion giving them incentive to join with Cersei or Danni against the Starks.
Though I do think that there should be some punishment and reward, but I kicking these huge houses out of their ancestral homes is not it. Instead have them pay a slightly higher tax to recoup the losses, and give some of the lesser houses that aided the Starks lands in The Gift and other abandoned castles. Also, Ser Davos should get The Dreadfort.
As far as Sansa speaking out in the middle of the meeting goes; yeah, you're correct.
Jonathan Stern, thanks for sharing your own thoughts on this, if she wants to distribute houses why not start with the Dreadfort? There's no body there, or is she thinking of settling there? Well I guess she could, afterall she is Sansa Bolton.
Cyndi sammy, I think the answer regarding the Dreadfort is that Sansa wasn't thinking about reward. Her primary motivation was punishment, talking away castles to show power. Period. But power comes from true devotion too, as GRRM shows us with book-Manderly's and others.
guys dont make such assumptions if you dont know the books.. like its very dum
You're confused. Aren't they here talking about the show and not the books? Isn't this is a thread about the show? Don't be pretentious where it's unnecessary....like its very dum.
Agreed, I was talking about the show. I've only read, or rather listened to the first three books. But, it's my understanding that in the books, Jayne Poole is the one who married into the Boltons, and Sansa is still in The Vale trying to get Harry the Heir's dick wet.
Jon's decision is based on having as capable a northern army as possible to combat the army of the dead. Defensively, the Karstarks and Umbers are first in line after the wall falls. Nobody knows the defenses of their homes better than the families who have lives there for centuries. I also think that his refusal to punish children for their father's action fits with his personality and is one of the themes of the show...I.e. Dany, Daughter of the mad king and Tyrion... a redeeming character for his detestable father, Tywin.
That's why Jon's decision isn't batty, IMO. I think Sansa's is stronger, but it isn't stupid by any means.
I actually agree more with Sansa in the decision since Karstark and Umber don't behave like they do in the books when their family was acting up. Although truthfully I just don't want there to be any Stark on Stark conflict.
kaledov To be fair you can't blame all the Umbers and Karstarks for the actions of their Lords. That would be like Jaimie or Tyrion doesn't deserve to be Lords of Casterly because their Lannisters.
Has Sansa forgotten that SHE was displaced with no home to go to last season? She prodded/forced Jon to take back Winterfel so that she would have a home to go back to. Punishing the Carstark and Umbers out of their home would have made enemies of both houses. And sniping at Jon in front of everyone was just plain wrong. Behind closed doors it would be ok if she was having a problem with Jon's idea of what he felt was right in this situation. It seems that Sansa still doesn't have a clue about the threat headed their way from the WW.
Have you and everyone else criticizing Sansa forgotten it was her that took Winterfell and the North back from the Boltons by pushing that moron that is Jon Snow into try to rally the Northern houses to get their home back after he refused to get off his ass and then was smart enough to get the Knights of the Vale to come to their rescue in order to save them she didn't tell Jon because he wouldn't listen he never listens to her he should've STFU because Sansa was right then and she's right now Jon's naive he can't play the game, Sansa has learned the hard way and with Littlefinger at her side she's the real player here Jon's out of his league he can't rule he has no clue he belongs on a battlefield NOT on a throne. p.s. Sansa is Ned Stark's true born daughter so HELL YEAH she should challenge Jon for the North because it's her RIGHTFUL claim and he's as clueless as Ned and Rob were. If Jon listened to Sansa and her advice instead of dismissing her like she doesn't know anything she wouldn't be frustrated with his disrespect and disregard for opinion . Where does he think she's been this whole fucking time sunbathing? she was a captive in Kingslanding,taken by Littlefinger and then sold off to the Boltons so yes she knows what the fuck she's taking about she used to be a weakling prey now she's become a very smart, manipulative predator and I love it.
ps I agree you I think there is a plan going along here Sansa is trying to trap Littlefinger and this mummer farce is Sansa's plan to play Littlefinger. She knows that Littlefinger is not happy with Jon's rules the North.
dee sousa I'm not a Jon Snow die-hard, he's not the perfect character but just for the record - Sansa agreed to go back to Winterfell and marry Ramsay. She had a choice in the matter and she made that choice herself - then she turns around and blames Little Finger for it. Also, how many times did Jon ask her where they could get more men to fight the Boltons? How many times did she not tell him about the Vale? She even admits to 'being sorry for not telling him' that they could've had more help beforehand and that she didn't know why she kept that info from him. How is it right to drag an apparently 'unentitled bastard' into a war they want nothing to do with? Why is is ok for her to use saving Rickon as the main motivation for Jon only to not care about Rickon at all in the greater scheme of 'getting revenge'. Why is her want to throw the Karstarks and Umbers out of their homes the 'smarter' option when that same action was taken against her family and only caused further dissent in the north?
I want Sansa to be a good character - I want her character arch to be fruitful and awesome, but honestly I'm not seeing it - the writing for her character is awful if she's supposed to be a 'good' person because right now she's looking like a younger Cersei and that won't be good for anyone.
I'm going to quote Comicbookgirl19...."Who...the fuck...would follow...Sansa?!"
Aaron Hernandez lol I love comicbookgirl19:) Go dune club :)
Melly Mel Same :) I've never read Dune but I'm keeping up with her episodes 😊
Every single person in that room agreed with Sansa.
I totally agree. Plus, I was shocked to hear Sansa told Little finger she's surrounded by her _'friends'_ but didn't mention *_'family_* . Obviously Sansa does not consider Jon as her family and thus she was bluntly talking out of whim cuz she couldn't take Jon was the king of the north. Bad Sansa bad!
He told her he is not a stark , and she told him you are a stark to me , are you an idiot or what ???!!!! You want just any excuss to hate her no matter what she did and do
There are things that Jon is very good at. He spent time at the wall, knows the cruel nature of winter. He’s seen the white walkers, killed the white walkers. Similarly there’s things Sansa knows that Jon doesn’t. She grew up in King’s landing surrounded by people like Joffrey, Cersei etc. She knows their basic strategies she knows how the game works. If they’re gonna survive this winter they have to do it together. Compromise. But after this episode I’m pretty sure they’re going to learn this the hard way. I feel like they're taking this sibling rivalry route and I don't like it.
on the other hand, in sansa's words itself, she doesn't want Jon making the same mistakes their father *cough uncle* and Robb did, however Sansa isn't .. idk taking a proper approach to explain this to him. he's right in his way and she's right in her own way
I think she's only did that to put on a show for little finger. To "show" that there is a ripple in their relationship and that he can wriggle his way through but she's setting a trap. This is probably a reach, but a girl has hope.
Poli _Marxa I like your theory a lot! :)
yeees
Poli _Marxa YEEESS
I was going to reply with the same. Sansa's not that stupid. The vid creator is too focused on twitterverse feminism to consider what might be her real motives for publicly undermining Jon.
Poli _Marxa lol.....after what they did to King Stannis, the Dorne plot and the Northern conspiracy. You are giving Dick&Dong too much credit.
I think it would have been appropriate to question Jon/object to him in a private meeting where they make the decisions before presenting them to everyone in the north. However, it was completely inappropriate to do so in the actual meeting. It does undermine Jon's authority and make it look like there's discontent. Sansa should have voiced her projections to Jon before the meeting, not during.
Totally agreed Daniel!
Lo and behold she DID betray him.
I believe what Jon did was right, the karstark and umber lords were just children and when Jon asked them to come forward they were scared shitless! This means when they swore their service to Jon they will at least be allies for hundreds of years like they were before and at this moment in time Jon needs every ally possible.
Glover’s argument was “You expect me to put a spear in my granddaughters hands” at which point Lyanna stood up. He wasn’t arguing the girls shouldn’t fight he didn’t want to put his granddaughter in danger. Once Lyanna announced she was on board with Jon’s idea he rest of the northern lords agreed so it’s not sexism
Exactly. Lyanna Mormont was the ruler of her own House, so she had every right to voice her opinion, so context is key here.
To me, Sansa believed that the fact that she argued with Jon in front of the Small Council and other Houses was in a way approved of due to the fact that she was the closest relation to Jon and she was his only family. She may have believed that this gave her a foundation that other people in the room didn't have to argue with Jon's ultimate decision.
I find it ridiculous that a girl who betrayed her family and watched her father beheaded is the queen of the North it pisses me off I wish Sansa died instead of Rickon
And how exactly is Sansa supposed to get her way of she doesn't argue her point? It certainly doesn't look like Jon is sharing his game plan with his advisors before making the public announcement. And there would be no point in talking about it afterwards once the decision has been made. Jon certainly can't reverse himself.
Well the point is that Sansa doesn't get her way. It's not her call to make. She gave it a shot to say: Nope, we should take their castles. Once Jon says "NOpe, they're keeping them" then bam, it's over. Sansa arguing once he said that is what makes her wrong.
And why doesn't she get her way? Its her family they betrayed and she is the one who saved the day. It should be her call and even if it isn't she should get an equal say in the matter.
And your "Jon Worshiper" line proves you to be hypocrite, because it seems obvious to everyone that you're a closet Sansa lover. He was absolutely right. You don't go questioning kings once they've made their decisions, especially when those aren't tyranical or cruel decisions. Sansa was totally out of line and she wouldn't have did that if Baelish wasn't whispering in her ear thoughts which undermined Jon's authority.
@@MrMarti2187 How did she save the day?
I think Sansa didn't think through her actions properly, maybe a show of support for Jon during the meeting and making her opinions known to Jon afterwards. If they don't both learn from this episode then it could be down hill for them both but I truly hope that it doesn't happen again because they are both on the same team.
I don't think the "She should know her place, he is the king" argument is a very strong one. For starters, Sansa isn't really Jon's subordinate, at least in her mind she isn't, or in Jon's mind for that matter. So it's not like Daenerys and her knights. They clearly serve her.
I think a closer comparison would be Ned and Robert back in season 1. Robert was his King, but Ned still argued with him and didn't back down in front of his small council.
I don't think anyone ever argued that Ned was in the wrong there.
Tbh I agree with Jon. Particularly when it comes to the Umbers. The eldest Umber was the one that proposed that Robb should become King in the North. In their case it really was a bad seed who broke faith.
Viteh I still think that's a little different. With Ned and Robert, like you said was with the Small Council. I think it would have been a lot different if say they were in front of all the southern lords. I don't think Ned would have acted that way if they were in front of them.
Obviously, I feel it's an incredible argument. Sansa is his subordinate, just like everyone else in that room (including Littlefinger). He's King in the North. As Joffrey says "The kind can do as he likes." Jon's word is what they want to go by, seeing as though they named him King in the North when he didn't want it.
The Robert and Ned comparison isn't the same. Ned argued with Robert behind closed doors -- if Sansa had called Jon an idiot sandwich pertaining to this issue in a small council meeting, I wouldn't have a negative thing to say. I'd say Sansa is doing her duty as an advisor and half-sister. But to do that in front of the entire North + Vale? She's 100 percent wrong, and it's different. The Dany/Jorah-Barristan comparison is much, much more relevant.
Jon may be right on his plan. Umbers and Karstarks are very strong houses in the North. I think Sansa was more correct, but he isn't necessarily wrong either.
I don't really understand why Sansa is more right given what we know in the story? She's so concerned and scared for what Cersei is going to do but Jon was 100% right in that any army she has is not going to come to the north to unseat them, the concern is with the Night King Plus the plan she suggests is one of the dumb decisions Robb and his folks made when they killed the Lannister boys. Also, "he (or she) who casts the sentence should swing the sword," I don't think Sansa is capable of beheading anyone nor is it her job to do. Now if we're talking him being lured somewhere, yeah watch out but other than that pssh. If anything Littlefinger is more of a threat and she knows it and he's chilling with them in Winterfell. Personally, if I was Jon, I would have more questions about why she didn't tell me about the Vale or Littlefinger and why is he still here and what does he want.
I've seen in other videos, it's also important to note that their land is very close to the wall and will be important to have strong armies there of strong houses ready to wage war there when the army of the dead comes.
How the hell is she supposed to counsel him when he doesn't hold a separate meeting before making big decisions? Obviously, talking to him afterwards would be too late. The fundamental problem is that Jon doesn't listen to people and least of all to Sansa. A king can't do as he likes or he won't be king for long, as Joff found out the hard way. Jon being a new, unproven king and a bastard puts him in a precarious position. He's in no position to play little dictator.
Now obviously Sansa shouldn't undermine Jon. But this would have been avoidable if he talked important policy decisions over with key advisors before holding a huge meeting. Ultimately it's his fault for not communicating well.
For what it's worth I think Jon's decision was probably correct, not because of some naive moral reasons, but because they need the men and resources of those two castles utilized efficiently to face the imminent invasion from the north.
Viteh Dude that's the small council, you are supposed to argue in the small council and question the King during a small council meeting, those are the King's most trusted advisors. However whenever the king convenes his all his lords you never hear anyone question the king, they might respectfully offer their opinion however they never keep pushing their opinion.
Sansa is the most annoying character, end of story. Not the actors fault, just terribly shit writing the last 3 seasons.
Saying Sansa should have argued Jon privately is irrelevant. Jon was about to announce a decision without first counseling with her. She had to speak up. The feud was inevitable.
Sansa could've not said anything, of course.
TheBattProductions being demure and silent like the proper lady she was taught to be sure as shit didn't help her life as a young girl . Of course she's learned to be outspoken if she feels her opinion is warranted. If Jon didnt want opposition in front of the lords, he needs to discuss things with a small council. Her whole point in the conversation later is merited: good kings understand they need the guidance and perspectives of others. Bad kings think they know everything.
+Rebeca A.
It absolutely helped her as a young girl. Tyrion said it himself "Lady Stark...you may survive us yet" after Sansa shut her mouth and just said "Joffrey is my one true love" after she got the hell beat out of her.
That's not how it works. Sansa doesn't get run of the room just because Jon didn't discuss his decision. As a King, it's his prerogative to seek counsel or not. Dany wouldn't allow Tyrion to do what Sansa did. As I pointed out in my video, she didn't let Jorah or Barristan do it, either.
It's crappy to say, but her point is irrelevant in this specific discussion (as to whether or not she should've spoken up). There's a way to do it, and Sansa didn't do it right.
Oh my gosh yes, I TOTALLY agree with you. It is VITAL to present a unified front. Sansa attacking Jon undermines him - which is possibly her end game. It's certainly Baelish's.
What annoys me is she is probably going to be one of the characters who will survive. She is a character who I didn't like in the beginning, I admired in the middle, and I'm back to not liking her at all right now.
I completely agree with you. Her opinions may (or not) have been valid but that was not the time or place to push them. This should have been discussed before the meeting not during...
The only thing about her opinion I was uncomfortable with was punishing the children of houses Umber and Karstark. Back in season 2 she was being punished for Robb's victorys. So I'm concerned for her lack of empathy here.
Exactly!
I agree! Sansa needed to keep her damn mouth shut during the meeting. She should have spoken to Jon PRIVATELY. Airing out the dirty laundry in public undermined Jon's authority, and because he didn't shut Sansa up, it made him appear weak in front of all of the northern lords.
Not discussing it between them in advance of the meeting was a leadership mistake and an error on Jon's part.
Guy Williams I agree but the subject was brought up by someone else in around about way, not by either Jon nor Sansa. I still think that Littlefinger is trying to cause issues between them.
Well that's not fair to say. If Sansa had a strong opinion, she should tell him ahead of time. It's not fair to blame Jon like that as if he HAS to ask Sansa for counsel on every decision he makes.
He's running a very large organisation (the kingdom) and so should consult with the board of directors (his small council / cabinet) before launching new policies to the management board (his bannermen / lords / parliament). He should have informed his key advisors including Sansa and Davos and gained or demanded their public support in advance, rather than risk exactly this kind of situation.
Astrid Dececco Fair enough, but the whole situation could have been avoided by them having a chat in advance. As Jon is taking the senior role, he should have arranged this. If Sansa's belief is that Jon doesn't have her political nouse, then she should have taken the initiative and arranged it herself - precisely to avoid a politically damaging public tiff. Either way, the error is not to have a small council meeting before the larger Lords' conference.
Yeah I think Sansa was questioning his judgment making Jon look weak. If he was to change his mind that would make him look even weaker. Maybe they should have the discussions before the meetings so it wouldn't come as a shock but Jon was right to shut it down like that.
You're right.
remember that this is a sibling dynamic - Sansa grew up with far more status than John on one hand because she's a legitimate Stark ... add to this LF's whispering this very thing to her .. right or not it's just an interaction and it's not like the North was lost over it ... I think John explained himself and what the issue with what she did was - she sees herself as an equal BECAUSE she's a full Stark ... that's all - so calm the fuck down - if her behavior continues then perhaps have a fit ... but otherwise just shut it
We already went 10 rounds on Twitter so I won't fully respond to this. I will just acknowledge it, haha.
Xenophrenia dude chill. He can say whatever he wants on his UA-cam. Who the hell are you to tell someone to shut it? No one. So shut it.
Xenophrenia, full Stark? I thought she's married to a Bolton, she's not a full Stark!
since when does marriage change your DNA? she's a Stark by birth my dear and no marriage changes that ... apparently you skipped biology class and believe Biblical nonsense that a woman belongs to her husband or something?
;-) ... yes - yes he can ... and this being the open internet means I can respond in whatever way I want as well ... the shut it was a general thing since this whole argument is over a character that is only doing what the script tells her to do & has gotten way the fuck out of hand ...
I don't get why everyone is making a big deal out of that scene? Should Sansa have questioned Jon in front of the northern nobles? No. But you can clearly see that Jon simply does not listen to her in any circumstances we've seen, and speaking out like this seems to just be Sansa trying to help and get Jon to listen to her advice. Everything Sansa does gets blown out of proportion tbh and it's annoying as shit. She's not evil or some machiavellian genius, she's just trying to do the best for herself, the north, and her family.
chloris you got that wrong. Sansa wants the best for herself. Not anyone else
Jackerco: If that was the case she would have accepted the leadership-role when Jon offered her that. Then she certainly would not have called Jon a Stark, or told Jon to take their parents chambers. Then one of the first things she said to Bran wouldn't have been that he is the rightful Lord of Winterfell. Then she would have taken the Northern Lords up on their calls for her to be Queen instead of Jon etc.
I get it people find her overall attitude kind of irritating, but she is not this 'power hungry-cersei like' lady a lot of people make her out to be..
"Then one of the first things she said to Bran wouldn't have been that he is the rightful Lord of Winterfell."
Except she wasn't ruler of Winterfell, that was Jon's post. So when Bran came back, she essentially was offering Bran's Jon's position.
There is a difference between King in the North and Lord/Lady of Winterfell. Jon is King, Sansa is Lady. Just like Lord Glover, Lady Mormont, Lord Manderly etc. Jon overrules all of them.
So Sansa wasn't offering Jon's position as King but her own position as Lady of Winterfell.
Which makes it even more despicable that the "Lady" didn't have enough respect for her liege lord to not undermine him in public, and at the same time, sow seeds of treachery to Glover and Royce so they would later feel embolden enough (because of Sansa's criticisms) to publically talk open treason about Jon
Sansa's response is because she believes that she should be the true leader, it goes back to when they grew up, while Arya loved Jon while Sansa always made Jon seem like he wasn't part of the family.
Jon's response was right because if he takes the castles from the Karstarks and the Umber then he would also have to take it from the Manderlays and from the Glovers and anyone else who didn't line up with him which would divide the north again.
preach. i agree with like 99% of this, but i don't think jon was wrong to keep the umbers and the karstarks in their keeps. i think sansa has a point about the lack of rewards for the faithful, but this is about to be a fight between the living and the dead. jon needs every one to band together to win. a united north. i hope that his leniency doesn't come back to bite him, but i still don't think it was the wrong call.
Can't argue there, mate!
If anything, they should have discussed the issue BEFOREHAND. But in regard to Punishments and rewards I have to agree with Sansa because it all boils down to one thing, Trust. Trust is like a needle in a haystack. hard to acquire and very easy to lose. By fighting for the Boltons the Umbers and Karstarks betrayed that trust. They have to be made to work to earn back that trust as well as their seats. Because if they betrayed them once they can do it again especially if they are allowed to retain their power. Before the Red Wedding, the Boltons rebelled twice against the Starks and the Starks forgave them twice. Well, we saw how that turned out. By letting them off easy it encouraged other houses like the Glovers to defy him later. Remember Julius Caesar, a man who was lenient towards those who fought against him. Long story short it didn't end well for him. His heir Augustus learned from that mistake.
"When your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you." - Tywin Lannister
I love me some Tyrion :)
I don't believe Sansa has done anything wrong in the premier. Sansa is frustrated with Jon. (And rightfully so) he died for honor and still he is making the same mistake that Ned and Robb did. He also never takes her advise even though she spent most of her life with the best of the players and yet he never ask how they play. She also holds trauma from the fact that these are the relatives of the men who betrayed and fought alongside her abuser! And gave her brother up! Jon wasn't a jerk, but he is stubborn..stubborn like Ned who wouldn't listen to Varys. Stubborn like Robb who wouldn't listen to Cat. And look where they are....dead. She's just trying to prevent that. And maybe that means being aggressive.
Bridget hammond
She learned from the best players who play the game like total scumbags. Cersei, Littlefinger and Ramsey is who she "learned" from and they're the most scummy, sorry, lowdown dogs in all of Westeros. I agree Jon has to be smarter than Ned and Rob but he doesn't have to stoop to the level of LF or Cersei. In my opinion, the way to play is somewhere in the middle. Keep you honor while making some tough decisions and listening to good council.
Sansa is right about Jon not being like Ned and Robb and making stupid mistakes, but she should NOT disagree with him in public in front of all the lords and ladies. That is NOT okay, and that undermines his authority and plants doubts in the minds of his subjects that he has authority. That was absolutely the wrong thing to do. You simply DON'T do that. She can disagree in private. But in public, present a united front.
I think that what Sansa does is "play the game" and Jon doesn't see leadership as a game at all, you can say she is trying to help him but I disagree, Sansa isn't concerned about her family just look at how quickly she accepted Rickon's death (the night before he died, even Cersei didn't stop caring about Tommen until he was dead) Sansa is concerned about Sansa, and I have yet to see any evidence that she is on Jon's side.. It's almost like Jon is being set up to be stabbed in the back, but people were so excited for a Stark reunion that we are blind to all the foreshadowing...
Bridget hammond Little finger and varys have been threatened even though they are still alive but how much longer? You don't want to keep putting fear into your subjects or they will secretly over throw you and kill you. Don't want to be like tywin's father either.
She idd that because she is bold. Northern men like that. The tables sounded for her and LOUD.
Conflated GoT arguments after just one episode? We really are back! LOL Kudos to you, Kevin, for taking on such a hot topic. And yep, two totally separate arguments were at play: the way things unfolded (your focus here) and whether J or S was correct.
I just did another re-watch and realized because of all the constraints of the medium, there's so much we miss. But S Turner did a great job projecting one thing: Weariness. Trauma. In both she and Cersei's characters is where picked up that under emphasized reality. I agree with you that her arguing was wrong and also caste her as weak/questionable. But as the following scenes demonstrated superbly, she's still scared, traumatized, etc. And you're so right too: Proper communication could've saved 90% of the characters in our story!
As far as whose idea was best, I was delightfully smitten at first. They both made great points! But Jon's lines about "removing a family from their ancestral home" highlighted the awful reality both J + S were, literally, just in; and "not holding kids accountable for the fathers' actions" was clearly a self-reflection. Empathy amongst sociopaths! A true Stark trait.
Great video! See you later this week!
p.s. I can't believe you're a self declared Cersei fan! Boo-Boo! jk
Here is what I think. . . . I see sansa point in calling out jon in front of everyone ( don't agree with what she did) but, I get that her brother jon who is the king of the North, never takes sansa into consideration in anything. He doesn't ask what she thinks ( even though she knows how all these people think and are. . such as Ramsey, and in this case Cersi). Jon doesn't see the value in what she has to say and all she is looking for is for Jon to take some advice in something she has to say. She called him out in front of everyone because she does not see him as a king but as a brother. And siblings do squabble. Don't agree it would be in front of everyone but, she is looking for Jon to take some recognition in what she has to say and consider her. And even more, for him to listen, see she is right and for everyone to see, that she has a point. I do think Jon did the right think in keeping the Karstarks and the Umbers. For the bigger picture is to unite everyone and to defeat the real enemy and not each other. In taking the homes from it's descendents would of not unite everyone but, hold grudges and they don't have time for that. Jon sees that it's better to work as one, especially that winter is here.
I don't understand what makes Sansa such a great adviser? What has she yet accomplished diplomatically that would make Jon want to heed her advice ? Not to mention she claims that she learnt " a great deal from cersei" and we all know how well cersei and her family is doing,so that's actually a negative.
Melly Mel Alright first of all Sansa could have said something during Jon's war council, it's a war council no one really asks for input you, you just throw what you have to say out their, Tormund threw his input out and Jon didn't ask and Davos did the same thing.
Second Sansa didn't give any good advice nor did she mention that the Vale might join. If your in the army don't you think it would be nice to know if you might receive air support or not so you can change your tactics up a bit.
Now they finally have taken winterfell and Jon has been declared King in the North she decides to weaken his rule by taking the first chance she has by making the most hypocritical stance she could take. Now don't get me wrong Jon does need to get a small council together but at the same time Sansa is bringing Jon down just like Caitlyn brought Rob down.
These are some weak reasons.
If Jon had knowledge of the Vale possibly coming to help he could have worked with that, and even delayed his attack. I don't get it. How could telling a dude three feet away from who's actually fighting the battle be a security risk, but maneuvering with a known treacherous rat in Littlefinger not? That doesn't even make any sense.
There was no strategic value in her withholding that from Jon apart from her own reservations in trusting him.
She isn't. Yet.
Taking Winterfell was her idea, but that wasn't a tactical move. It was an ambition. Withholding information about the Vale was dumb and could have gotten Jon killed, and arguing with him in front of his men is also dumb. Nothing breeds disloyalty like attacking the leader.
Sansa is convinced that she's smarter than everyone else, but has yet advised Jon in a way that will push him towards his goal. Preparing the North for the Long Night.
0Fear here here!!! 😁
Now that Sansa has control of the North while Jon is gone (and maybe never return) I think Bran will question her in the same public manner that she questioned Jon at some point in the future. Or he could just roll his eyes back and make her say whatever he wants.
I agree with you. Sansa was out of line. However I also oppose her on grounds of taking lands from the Karstarks and Umbers because punishing children for the sins of the fathers is not the Northern ways. It is the Southern way. Who knows, maybe her time along the Southerners had more adverse affects for Sansa than expected.
the thing is, that was the last moment she could have changed his decision, so she needed to say it at that moment.
sansa is jons advisor at that moment so she has to give him advice, and when he doesn't reveal his plans towards her before the meeting she has to give him advise during the meetiing.
She had argued several times already and Jon said no -- at some point, you have to drop it. Jon's mind was madeup. She was wrong to repeatedly argue.
a good king needs good advice and a good advisor doesn't stop when the king says no, otherwise KL would have burned down by daenerys several times.
and you cant compare sansas role with that of a bannerman, sansa is his advisor and his sister.
in my opinion jon was the problem in that situation, he should have shared his plan to her in a private meeting and not revealing it to her in front of the lords.
Honestly, I think Jon was right in the argument because there's no need to punish children for the crimes of their fathers and they need to make sure that those houses stick with them, rather than pushing them away. They need as many people as possible.
Hey I can dig that!
lady Mormont has all the right to speak up against lord Glover because they are equals, . Lady Mormont is the leader of her House and so is Lord Glover. Sansa is beneath John
, she's not the queen
Half agree with you. It wasn’t her place to question Jon’s choice and she stated very logical reasons behind her thinking and honestly Jon needs to wise up regarding some enemies however I stand with Lord Snow in this one,the crimes of the fathers shouldn’t be payed by the sons.Taking those castles from Lady Karstark and Lord Umber would probably breed two more enemies to the Starks. Sansa should understand that specially when her ancestral castle was taken away from her. Keep it up bro,great work!
No Catelyn Stark who not do that but she is the weakest Stark and not the smartest to begin with. She did so many things wrong, because of her naive little girl mentality Ned Stark lost his head! Begging to marry her off to Geoffrey while she didn't know him, is stupid! Ignoring the fact that Geoffrey is a maniac because she wanted to become Queen is stupid. Challenging Jon Snow's leadership is stupid to especially with the other Northern Houses are there looking at you, Sansa makes her brother look like a fool. When Jon ask her not to tell that he is a Targaryen she doesn't respect Jon! She can't even be happy for her little brother Bran that he sits on the Throne, all she says is yeah! The North will be independent so she can be Queen! Haven't you learned anything Sansa? You wanted to be Queen for all the wrong reasons and you never did anything to earn it! Daenerys fought to save your home and you can't even thank her! You're brother Jon confided in you but you go against his wishes when he clearly says : Don't tell! She is one of the most boring and bitchiest character ever! Where was your mouth and voice when you were against Cersei? You never stood up for yourself. You had so many chances to kill her or plot against her, after your father lost his head because you begged him to confess. I totally lost my respect for you!
Not a fan of Sansa anymore. She could've easily killed Jon by hiding info from him and now she is questioning everything he says despite HIM being king in the north. She also is praised for "outsmarting littlefinger" by many, however, she's not done much the only reason she appears smart is because littlefinger is acting stupid due to his love for her.
I wonder if she was just baiting Littlefinger. I feel Sansa is aware enough to realize what challenging Jon in front of the northerners meant. Either this was much more deliberate on her part, because she is baiting Baelish. Or the writers are adding conflict and tension for the sake of conflict and tension. And D and D are dumb enough to do that.
I don't think I've ever seen so many divided opinions on this situation between Jon and Sansa.
Hahaha. It's definitely taken on a phenomena of its own
I think even if she said that at the meeting, nobody would question her because she is the key to the north meaning she is the heir to winterfell and not jon due to being a bastard and also she has become very protective sister which is why she acted that way. Sansa has lost her father, mother and elder brother as a result making her more careful with jon even if jon doesn't like her way of speaking.
Its called not washing your laundry in public (especially with a figure of authority)!!! I hate when people start with a gender thing on every oppurtunity :(((
Because the world is all about genders and imaginary oppression now.
That's what she was doing (laundry). Sometimes I admit it totally is a gender or sex thing, but NOT this time.
Sometimes it **is** about gender, and they address that on this show all the time (even though this show is supposed to take place in a "medieval" world with VERY different gender norms than we have now). But the way Twitter and the Blogosphere try to turn every...little...thing into a gender/social justice/whatever talking point at the slightest opportunity is just tiring. Many times, it's just belligerence. They just want to argue. They want the opportunity to call someone a "sexist" or talk about patriarchy even if it doesn't even apply, or it wasn't even intended. With Lyanna Mormont, Brienne, Dany, Arya, Yara, Olenna, etc. all on this show, all strong female characters, I'd argue that the show has gone out of its way to even the odds, so to speak (I'd add Cersei here too, but she's crazy). So the angry people on Twitter have to grasp something....anything....to complain about. They grasped onto this moment.
Sansa is useless and doesn't deserve to be queen in the north, why would any of the other 6 kingdoms remain when the north gets to be independent? She has ambition of her own, it was seen on her face at the succession moot, she wanted the throne, after the real heroes did all the hard work she thought it would just fall in her lap, she was waiting for it. Shes been through some shit, yes, but that alone doesn't give her the right to take the reins. She has done literally nothing, not even at the BotB, it was littlefinger who influenced the knights of the Vale to arrive, not sansa. Why is it ok to honor SOME traditions (like the stark family still having dibs on "ruling" the north) and ok to discard others (the union of the north with the continent)?? "the north will stay independent like it has for thousands of years" ok so I guess that would apply to the other 6 kingdoms then as well, fucking bollox m8. The union of the 7 kingdoms is a step in the right direction, the consolidation of forces, King bobby B in season 1 even alluded to the promise of a strong unified continent through a standing army. sansa actively went in the other direction, fucking twat. It just doesn't make sense, why would any of the other 6 kingdoms remain? yara wont have it, nor dorne, nor many in essos. ELECT kings??
Sansa speaking out in front of whole Northern group gives impression there is not unity in monarchy and that King is weak...that sort of council should always be done in private. She is undermining him, whether she wants to or not...she showed the Northern lords that she is inexperienced and disrespectful and worst of all that Jon is weak.
Yup! 100 percent dead-on.
How am I seeing this three years later. We are trained as adults how to talk to coworkers and how to resolve issues especially with superiors. It is this exact situation. You are supposed to voice your opinion but then any more arguments should be done privately. It looks better on both parties. Her bickering actually makes house Stark look weak.
Personally I feel that this was a power play on Sansa part. She feels that she should be Queen over Jon as she brought in the Vale and She is true born.
However I also feel if I were any Northern lord who agreed to fight for her and she didn’t tell anyone about the Vale army after her brother asked her for her advice and urged her for anymore information and she stayed quiet, I would want her tried for treason. Had she revealed that the Vale was close battle plans would have been different and more Northern lives would have been saved.
I also think Jon made the right decision there as well. They need allies. They need living people. There is no need to kill children and now they have two people who are grateful and loyal to house Stark and to Jon in particular. Again because I believe from reading the books that Sansa’s storyline is to become the ultimate player I think she knows that too
As a female I believe that feminism means that men and woman are the same. Which means we are equally as strong as leaders and we can be as equally fucked up, we can be as equally good and be as equally bad. Just because Sansa is a strong female and a Stark doesn’t mean she is inherently a good person. She has learned to be mean and tricky and not to trust people. She has gone through hell, some from her own making, she is not an innocent flower. She has made some pretty awful mistakes and has made them time and time again. That is what make her one of the most intelligent and interesting characters. However she is not redeemable and she is definitely going after Jon and after power in this scene. She wants people to know Jon is weak and She is not. She continues that, she knows Jon is Ned’s son and will always blindly protect her.
It is a shame that D&D didn’t l didn’t add Robb’s will because it would make Sansa look bad. They wouldn’t make Sansa look bad because they wanted that savior Queen in the end. That is why they never explain why she reveals Jon’s secret in the end after he fights two wars to save her life and is about to fight a third and install a queen that at that point didn’t want to kill her. Robb’s will names Jon a Stark and hire to Winterfell, it also disinherited Sansa so that the Lannisters would not get it. It would have made more sense as to why Jon, the bastard got to be king over Sansa the true born. It would also have made more sense as to why Sansa is angry at Jon. THe sad part is because of the rush instead of the explanation being Jon is the rightful heir, he also has done a ton of work organizing the wall and bringing in extra food and fortification for winter and protection for the North, bringing together the Northerns with the free folk; D&D leaves it too Jon has a penis so Jon gets to be king. Which creates gender bias instead of staying to the true meaning of the story which is
Power, how do people get it, what do they do with it once that get it and who should have it. What makes a good leader and what happens to those who follow under good leadership
Sansa was trying to help Jon and stop him from making what she saw as a naive decision. Jon was making the decision in public, so Sansa had to discuss it in public. What was she supposed to do?? Say "Wait Jon! Let's talk in private for a sec." Or if he already promised the castles to the heirs in public, Sansa would have no opportunity to give her opinion. She was trying to HELP Jon. Stop pointlessly antagonizing Sansa
Grace O'Neill +
Masticatious Actually no, she should've said it prior to the meeting before blurting out a stupid arguement
How can she say it prior if Jon does not discuss his decissions prior to the meeting?
There are ways of doing things. Look at how Tyrion gives council...
Yes he does. He has a war council. You remember Davos, Tormund, etc.
I was thinking more along the line that Sansa forced Jon to defend his way of thinking and thus MADE the other houses respect him more for it. She is making him explain his belif ( in an undermining way just as LF thought her, ) while at the same time staying true to herself as well.
I disagree with Sansa for a complete opposite reason. I think she DID have the right to speak out as the only Stark in the room (even though it would have been better to speak to Jon about it personally, beforehand). I disagree, because I think her position was wrong. I'm assuming she had seen Ned Umber and Alys Karstark before. How could she honestly think it to be a good idea to kick two children out of their family homes, after she had JUST retaken hers? You could see how relieved the two were after pledging their allegiance. You think THEY are going to betray the Starks again? Sansa has learned from Cersei and a small part of the lion has taken over her inner wolf. "The more people you love, the weaker you are". The only one Sansa loves right now, and not sufficiently in my opinion, is Jon. I can't imagine how the situation will be once BRAN or Arya return to Winterfell. King's Landing changed her. She once trusted Cersei and Littlefinger, now she can't trust anyone anymore
They might not betray the Starks, but they are children who are now supposed to keep grown men in their family in check. Who cares what they want or feel if those men decide to kill those kids and revolt anyway.
No, she was wrong because she made Jon look weak and open the door for those same lords to come to her later on, talking treason.
Jon in this instance was morally right whereas Sansa's idea was the more tactical and "smart" of the two. But to question him like that in front of his bannermen makes him appear weak and invites more challenges to his rule. The intelligent thing to do would have been to tell him her opinion before or after the meeting. On the plus side, I thought Jon backed up his decision quite well. I especially liked when he said that the punishment for treason is death in response to her saying that there is none and then saying that they all died on the battlefield
Agreed
I like Sansa.
Sansa is okay, sure.
Joseph Irizarry I like salsa but Sansa Stark I hate because of her hardcore fans.
I like songs a to but that doesn't mean she didn't screw it up right here. You can like someone and admit that they make a mistake. Why do people these days think that if you admit someone makes a mistake you just don't like them or don't stand for them? I don't understand how we've lost the grey area completely after the last few years and we're all back to black and white
Joseph Irizarry exactly. Sooooo yumyummmy
460mas
You shouldn't hate/dislike a character because of their fans but because of their actions..
She made a lot of mistakes and is far from perfect but she has also done good things and was likeable in many scenes. She's really realistic and her character is interesting.
Sansa blows. Sansa sucks. Always sucked.
P.S. Jon Snow sucks too. Extra sucks.
Agreed. Sansa's idea was right, but the way she delivered it was bad. But then again, I read some comments down below, and one of them pointed out that the scene is not very far apart from the time Jon was named the King. Jon has been the bastard brother for Sansa for years. She is not used to have him as someone to follow. And she wanted to be heard. She has a lot to learn, and she already has learned. Petyr seemed quite pleased by what she did. She has learned from the wrong people, and most probably will make a really bad mistake at some point.
Exactly. It was all about her poor tact in delivering it that makes it 100 percent wrong.
The scene was at least a week or so from Episode 10 (my guess -- the characters in both scenes aren't all the same). I get that she wants to be heard, but she's been around monarchs constantly to know that she can't just argue like that in public. She said it herself - Joffrey didn't let anyone argue. Sure, made him a bad king to never have anyone question him, but that was one thing he did as a king that was right: he was firm in his stance. I'm fine with Sansa smacking the crap out of Jon behind closed doors, but not in public. The North needs a strong leader now more than ever.
Petyr is trying to get those seeds of discontent sewn. I don't think Sansa will take the bait, and instead trap him :)
Someone said two weeks? Not sure. But yeah, The North really needs a strong leader and I hope Sansa understands that soon. And the part with Petyr in the next episode trailer is promising!
Anyway, I wanted to add another thing. I watched some other videos and thought I would bring it up here, too. Maybe someone has already, but anyway. How did Euron and Daenerys not see each others fleets? Because Dragonstone is not far from King's Landing and they were there around the same time. Also why didn't Euron take over Dragonstone? And why did they let Daenerys just walk up there without no one checking if there was anyone there. She could have been easily attacked.
I almost agree completely, except that I believe Jon was 100% right about everything. Including his decisión to let those houses keep their ancestral homes. Thats the type of leader that Jon has always been
Can't argue! Jon may be totally right. Sansa's plan was more politically savvy probably, BUT it's hard to argue that keeping two of the largest houses in the North happy was a BAD move (Umber and Karstark)
I agree completely. She shoulda said what she wanted to either before or after the meeting
Justin Smegelsky yep. Maybe from now on Jon will include her in his thoughts and seek advice. Or at least listen what she has to say. I agree with sansa, he needs to.be smarter than their father and brother. If the enemy already knows what knows what moves he will make, they are doomed.
Melly Mel what Sansa has to say is correct. I just don't like how she did it. Switch the roles and I'd be saying the same thing
Agreed
TheBattProductions what sansa ment by you are good at ruling was by the way he over ruled her and he did show his athoratey
House Frey words should make sense if you write them down
Actually, it was a smart decision by Jon, because they didn't need more castles to help defend the army of the dead they needed more men. If he had taken away their family homes would they have fought for him when the night king showed up?
God bless everyone.
sansa was right whats stopping them from rebellion again they still will want vengeance for there dead family
Orlando Williams they won't have time to rebel. They will be more concentrated on the whites coming their way. Better to ban the North and everyone together than to fight between themselves.
Melly Mel 48 laws of power says you destroy your enemies completely how many men could they possibly have after the battle of the bastards?
Orlando Williams a lot, they're the biggest houses in the north besides house Stark.
Orlando Williams they rebelled becsuse Robb killed the lord of karstark and Jon let wildlings through the wall without official permission from the warden of the north.
They would have rebelled if their home was taken from them taking sansa's advice into consideration. Jon did right thing by saying "shut up bitch!" Kinda way..
And the moment you mentioned Catelyn questioning Ned in any situation (ever!!), my mind immediately jumped to the moment in the tent with Robb and the Northern Lords in Season 1 Episode 8. Where - Catelyn attempted to question Robb's decision to let the scout go, but the moment he looked back at her she thought better of it, and let him make the choice...
EXACTLY
If you try to speak out and the King/monarch stares you down, you need to just shut your face and talk in private later. Arguing with them is the WRONG move.
I agree.
I'm writing a fanfiction based on GOT, but with its own region, families and histories where there is a similar situation. To make a long story short here, with the start of the war the lord of my keep leaves his family in the care of a trusted sentinel who is all refined, skilled and powerful. A man perceived to be of low birth who came to them a mercenary some years ago; giving him command of the hold. For a situation one of their people was imprisoned, and the sentinel refused his release. Technically, the lady has more authority than the former mercenary, but does not question his decisions openly, only bringing up her opinion later. With the reason: "Men lost respect and authority when they were questioned by women, no matter their status or position."
Wow, that sounds like a pretty intense fan fic! I hope it ends pretty well and I'm excited to hear more about it down the road. Good start.
It's not perfect, at all. But I'm trying. It's a work of love, and I'm passionate about it. You're welcome to it, if you've got the time of course ;-)
I see nothing wrong with what she did. If you are leader, you should be open with opinions
Time and place, time and place.
When did Jon give her the chance to voice her council in private? He forced her to do it in public because he didn't ask for his advisors opinions before he made his decision.
It’s almost like they talked right after
there is a difference, you have a small counsel to advise you on these matters
"but John didnt have a small Counsel set up yet for him to take advice"
"Than your simply out of luck"
people need to remember the Kings say is absolute, if you dont like it you kill him and all his lineage or you leave. John would never do this but by all rights since he was named King by conquest and not by hereditary line he could litterally take Sansa outback to have her beheaded, the way its technically set up the rest of the Stark children are now bastards interms of there right to sit at the throne in the case of johns death. John Stark is not king, John Snow is the king.
This may play out in the story later on because Johns Kingship is more like Robert Baratheon Rebellion than it is like Joffrey and Tommen Lannisters Kingships. John is not named King because hes the son of Eddard Stark no matter how many times lady lyanna says that line.
At first, I supported Sansa on the matter but thought she was rude by objecting him. Now when I think about it, I think it's not *that* bad. I mean, northeners are the most insolent bannermen in the entire show. They argue aloud with their lords. Remember Greatjon Umber. If they have a right to do so, why wouldn't Sansa, his half sister, trueborn daughter of Ned Stark? She saved Jon's life along with everyone else's, doesn't she deserve to speak at least, if she was already denied of her title of the Queen in the North? She saved them, and she is the oldest trueborn Stark. She deserves to speak, even in an insolent way. And *especially* if she's right on the matter. But Jon doesn't want to listen. He never does. The problem isn't with Sansa being insolent here. The problem is Jon's pride so he doesn't want to let anyone speak. He proved that later when he talked with Sansa alone. When she asked him to listen to her *advices* ( *not commands!* ), he didn't want to. She asked if that would be so terrible. I know why it is. What, she's a woman so she can't say anything useful? I don't support Sansa just because she's a woman. I support her because she's the most experienced northern politician, if not the only one. If Jon made his decision final in front of everyone, and later changed it, people would question his leadership. Sansa *had to* persuade him *before* letting him make his decision final. She just had to.
In this context, Sansa should have discussed her opinions on the matter privately, not objecting openly in front of the northern nobility as she did.
Honestly I agree with Jon, I think that you can't punish people for the actions of their relatives. The Umbers and the Karstarks were loyal to house Stark for hundreds of years and just because one member of the family wasn't loyal you punish the whole house? The Umbers fought against Jon because he had a wildling army, not because they weren't loyal to the Starks. And as for the Karstarks they were obviously blinded by the fact that Robb killed their liege lord. But it's a new era of Starks as well as a new era of Karstarks and Umbers, what Jon did in my opinion was the right thing to do, and if they rebel again then you can give their castles to someone else. And overall, I can see why many of the other houses fought with the Boltons, it's hard to side with the "Starks" when one is a bastard and another was married twice including to Ramsey. And many in the North hate the wildlings, like the Umbers, so of course they're gonna fight against them. It's easy to say that every house should have sided with Jon and Sansa but from their point of view it made more sense to not fight for the Starks. And what about Lord Glover? He didn't support the Starks, he even said House Stark is dead but you don't see anyone getting mad at him.
@TheBattProductions Man i have to say you are becoming one of my fav GOT UA-camr. I was waiting for someone to make a video about this scene and to be honest i thought that it was going to be Preston Jacobs but he actually defended Sansa in his episode 1 review.
I totally agree with you that Sansa was wrong to question Jon in front of all the Northern Lords and Ladies ( not to mention that the Lords of the Vale were there too ). I understand what she was trying to do, punish the Houses that betrayed them and fought on Ramsay's side but she made Jon look like a weak leader who's orders can be questioned and challenged. Jon was able to save face by basically telling Sansa that she doesn't get to decide what's going to happen to the Umbers and the Karstarks and he was lucky that the Northern Lords ended up supporting his decision. Sansa is trying to be like Littlefinger but she fails to realize that Littlefinger does not force his opinions on others, he manipulates those in power and acts like he is just trying to help them and he does it in a way that does not challenge the power and authority of the person in power ( may it be a High Lord such as Tywin Lannister, a King such as Joffrey or even a stupid kid who is the Lord of the Vale ). Littlefinger is always very polite when he is giving advice to others and he does that behind closed doors, not in front of the whole world to see. Sansa was arrogant in that scene and very confrontational, had she been more polite and respectful while sharing her thoughts on the matter... Jon might've even listened to her.
Anyway great video man. Thank you for taking the time to talk about this and keep up the good work.
Thank you Julian. I really appreciate those nice words. The topic wasn't a big deal to me until I saw so much talk on Twitter and it made my blood boil because I think it's just obvious that Sansa was wrong in what she did.
Exactly: Sansa doesn't know how to handle her new position of power. She wants to do things like Cersei has done in KL, but that's not what the North needs. She's right in reinforcing loyalty, but she's wrong because she wants to OUTCAST two of the strongest houses in the North. Jon has a great point frankly by keeping them installed at Last Hearth and Karhold. Jon however does need to start asking others for advice rather than doing everything himself. He can learn things from Sansa.
Thank you again Julian!
Oh yeah, and I'll just leave this here, for people who think Jon isn't at fault for the way he conducts himself.
Jon Snow: "You are my sister, but I am King now..."
Tywin Lannister: "Any man who must say 'I am the king' is no true king."
So your only point is a quote, which doesnt even make sense tbh. Nice
futurestoryteller.....context, context.... Words mean nothing without it!
It's a manipulated quote, in my opinion.
-When Joff said that, he was trying to say "I CAN DO WHAT I WANT! I AM THE KING! BAHAHAHAH"
-When Jon said it, he was reminding Sansa of the newly established roles they have. Jon is King in the North & Lord of Winterfell. Sansa is just his sister.
Intent of the statement is very, very important.
"It's a manipulated quote, in my opinion"
What does that even mean?
- When Joffrey said that he was saying I have the ultimate authority here, which is what Jon is saying to Sansa.
- "Sansa is just his sister...' That's not dismissive is it?...
The intent was the same, regardless of how anyone tries to spin it.
Jon said: "This is my decision and my decision is final."
Sansa and Davos are supposed to be Jon's advisors (he has them both sitting beside him at that table). However, it seems he spoke to neither of them while coming to his decision. (Look at Davos's face. He looked surprised and concerned.) And, I believe if Sansa already knew his decision she wouldn't have "undermined" him by daring to speak during his meeting.
It sounds exactly like Jon is saying "I'm king now and I will do what I want" because that is EXACTLY what he did.
OMG, thank you for making this video. I was so pissed at Sansa. Even though she made many valuable points, she compromised Jon's position as KotN. If his own sister/cousin can't respect his authority, then why should anyone in that room? Would Sansa have been cool if JON did that to HER?
Either Last Hearth, Karhold, or the Dreadfort should be given to Lord Tormund of House Giantsbane
Jack Challenge LMAO
or to Lord Davos of house Seaworth
Jack Challenge It isn't the time to really divide the spoils of war and with what Jon did he set up the possibility of a Mormont and Umber wedding rewarding his most loyal supporter Lady Lyanna Mormont, and if you read the books a possible marriage of Tormunds son to Alys Karstark thus providing the Wildlings a home and rebuilding the Karstark forces depleted by 2 back to back wars and the loss of all it's male heirs at this point. There is still so much that can be done, but again really irrelevant at this point if they don't stop the Night King which it seems Sansa doesn't even care nor believe in at this point. Playing the Game of Thrones so not appropriate at this moment when they could all die and we're speaking all of Westeros here not just the North.
Lord hot of house pie
That's what I hated no one brought up the Dreadfort or any Bolton land. It's probably rich with resources
The only reason I side with Sansa in this matter is Jon is a bad communicator. He's not dumb by any means, however he is severely lacking in communication skills, which isn't entirely his fault. Sansa didn't start off the argument being rude or particularly overbearing. She was correct in her thinking in my opinion, as was Jon. Because of their perspectives and goals they are both correct in their opinions, however Jon had the air of a parent who is aware that they are wrong, but just keep repeating no for the sake of saying no. He basically listened to her, and without much explanation, said "Yeah, good point and all, but your opinion is irrelevant, I'm King of the North so I know what's best." Which I don't believe he intended to portray, but due to his lack of communication skills I think it's harder for him to effectively express how he feels about certain issues. Especially when put in a power position he never really wanted.
Sansa grew up in kings landing. learning from cerci and Joffrey. Jon is Ned stark clone.
Exactly, she wants to rule the north the way folks rule in King's landing and that's not going to work.
Thought this too. Sansa has been in the South for far too long (she never really cared for the Northern customs to begin with while she was still in Winterfell, imo), and her ideas are heavily influenced by the Lannisters. Giving away lands and castles to loyal supporters? That's something the Southern folks do, but not the North, not the Stark's. If I remember correctly, the Bolton's had a disagreement with the Stark's or went into open rebellion (can't remember which exactly), but the Stark's made them bend the knee and swear fealty. They never stripped them of their ranks, lands, and titles. It worked. The Bolton's may have turned one them in this generation, but it took several others before the instance happened again, and we all know Roose Bolton was driven by greed when the golden opportunity came - otherwise they'd still be allied with the Stark's.
What I'm saying is, Northerner's, the Stark's especially are not vindictive - not in the way the Southern people are. It's why they've held power for so long and are beloved by their people.
Sansa better get with the program. Stat!
Thank you! Sansa was very much like Catelyn, she looked down on people she deemed unworthy. I hated Catelyn and I'm growing to hate Sansa even more. Sansa wants to be the fairytale princess and she doesn't care who she has to step on or lie to in order to get it.
reeny G Which makes him a moron. She is far better politician than him.
Being called a politician is not, rpt. NOT a compliment. I can think of few worse criticisms. Being a piano player in a whorehouse is more noble than being a politician. Politicians lie, cheat, steal, condone dishonesty and murder if it gets them what they want: Power. Honor makes you do the right things for the right reasons. Ned was naive, but he was a far better man than the southern kings were. He did his duty to marry a horrible woman, and she had a horrible daughter (*and one who was great) but Sansa deserves no praise. She gets thanks for helping bring in the Vale, but criticism for being secretive about it in the first place.
my question is: if cercei and jaimie knew that daenerys plan was to travel to dragonstone, why is no one there to defend it?
euron must have passed it, right?
I think what people don't understand is that Jon Snow is, in fact, king. The Northerners act differently than the Southerners, but the same rules apply to all leaders: You don't question their power in public. If you do, two things will immediately happen. Either the ruler looks weak to his lessers and backs down from you, or you get your feelings hurt by the ruler himself. You don't put the ruler in that situation, no matter what. This especially applies when the ruler is of your own kin, because you are both supposed to be better than that together.
Exactly.
well maybe if Jon wasn't a idiot and would have talked to Sansa or his advisory before announcing such things she wouldn't have to go against him in public.
Well, maybe if you realized that as King, Jon was under no obligation to even accept advice. Sure, kings should accept advice, but the very title of king itself specifies that you're the head ruler and under no obligations to listen to others. So get off that "JOn's an idiot" position. Rob didn't stand for such disrespect (and no, Rob didn't fall because he was arrogant to his bannerman; he fell because his mother undermined his rule by letting Jaime go) and neither should Jon either.
Sansa pushed a boundary that was very inappropriate. Yes, Jon yelled at Sansa but she wasn't listening and thus he had to shut her up because he has the authority in the counsel to do so. Her challenging Jon reminds me a LOT like Cersei challenging anyone who has power. I believe that Sansa subconsciously inherited the boundary pushing/challenging nature from the Lannisters during her time in King's Landing. What Sansa witnessed in King's Landing (behavior wise) has now caught onto her behaviour. Even though she learnt her enemies' mistakes in the game, she has now to learn how not be like the Lannisters in her developing character.
I hope that makes sense lol.
Pretty much. I agree.
When could have Sansa argued her point then? First of all, I don't think that gathering was meant as just an announcement of Jon's plans or orders moving forward. It was a huddle. Discussion was to be expected. Jon should expect opposing opinions, and if he didn't want it from Sansa, he should have had a meeting with her before the actual gathering. Don't you think this is what riled her up? Another point, Northerners have a different sense of monarchy and ruling. At least with regards to somewhat "impromptu" proclamations like with Robb's and now Jon's. Jon is king, but the king's rule is not handled the same as in the South where it's treason to show dissent toward the king and anything he says. The Northerners have always been fiercely loyal but they have also been fiercely vocal and opinionated. When you think about that bit of nuance when you're contemplating Sansa's actions you'd understand why she did it. Also, this is what exactly a small council is for-a chance for Jon to run his plans through a group of his advisers before making a somewhat big move. Well, in an ideal world at least where rulers listen to counsel. Jon, being who he is, we expect him to be that kind of ruler. Since we don't see Jon discussing with advisers beforehand, the gatherings with the Northern lords can be the closest thing to that. I think that's where Sansa's Joffrey comment came from, although she did retract it.
As for the sexism arguments against you, I think it's stemming from the fact that, come on, if you're really being honest, if that comment from Sansa came instead from someone like Robb (which, hey, if he was alive that would be plausible when you think about what he did with the Karstarks) or a similar MALE figure in Jon's life. People would 100% react differently. Then it would just be treated as just a couple of headstrong men butting heads in the war room. Something that can be expected when emotions are running high and the stakes are even higher. But since it's Sansa, someone whose identity people still define based on her actions as a young manipulated, isolated, powerless child years and years ago, it comes off as something so off putting. It's so jarring because people obviously have their own set of expectations for her, expectations that you'd be lying if you don't admit are built around people's expectations for a woman. Jon should know better. He was running lip about how they should trust each other but that should not just come from Sansa. Since last season she's been talking about how her opinions are not valued despite her obviously having legitimate, valuable opinions to give. Hence her saying, "Would that be so bad?" after Jon said "How should I do that (be smarter)? By listening to you?" That dialogue alone is so telling. I'm not saying let Sansa bark out the orders, but Jon should at least listen to her. At least if he want a better relationship with her and a stronger Stark front.
Great video. I totally agree with you. I think both of them could avoid so much trouble if they would just sit down and talk to each other honest. I think Sansa had a good point but it was just annoying that she openly argued with Jon. The discussion about fighting the war in the north or the south was stupid. I think Sana is able the find more allies and fight Cersei. So Jon can focus on the north. But these things will never happen and they will probably do more stupid stuff.
I also have a question: Do you think that Bran passing the wall has done something to it?
I agree. Communication needs to pickup between the two. GREATLY.
- Yes. I think the Wall is now vulnerable to the Night King using the horn of winter to knock it down. It's COMING DOWN BABAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think people are forgetting that GOT is set in a patriarchal society, it's a given. Jon was right in shutting Sansa down as she was undermining him in front of his subjects, but Sansa is coming from a place of fear & is desperate to keep House Stark safe for herself and the Stark family. Cat would not have challenged either Ned or Robb and Cat is dead, this is what Sansa knows, so she is not going to follow in her mothers footsteps, just as she is trying to warn Jon NOT to follow the example set by both her father and brother, because she knows it WILL get Jon killed. But in doing the opposite to her mother, Sansa is going to make mistakes as she did at the Council at Winterfell; wrong place to confront Jon wrong attitude....Fear is driving her and the knowledge that Jon can be reckless and make unwise decisions. Stannis warned Jon to send Thorne away & Jon ignored it and his lack of political intrigue got him killed....They are both coming from a place of fear; Jon fears the Night King while Sansa fears Cersei, they are both right. Cersei may not send her army but she may send an assassin to take out both Jon and Sansa, its not wise to underestimate ones enemy, just ask Olenna she gave Cersei the idea, "you're surrounded by enemies, what are you going to do, kill them all?" Cersei did exactly that......In these scenes both Jon and Sansa are wrong and right....Sansa needs to pick the right time and place and Jon would do well to LISTEN to Sansa rather than arbitrarily dismissing her.....Sansa has 'frenemy' zoned Baelish & she knows how dangerous he can be, we will see how Jon handles Littlefinger next week.....I hope my post makes some sense :)
patriarchal system is Westeros you are right in the line of successions it is always the males. The Lordship should go to Sansa because her trueborn status. In the succession of the crown it always goes to the males heirs first they always try find a second cousin male to the throne before it will be given to woman. If there is no choice a castle will go to female heir.
assuming the North resumed Robb Stark's kingdom then no Sansa was disinherited and is not in line of succession. she would not be in line of succession anyway as she is a Bolton or a Lannister by marriage making her offspring the next in line for Winterfell if she had children. Jon seemed to be picked because he had an army, he led the coalition to victory and he was recognized as the leader, the King they would follow. also if they elected Sansa as leader then it would be a queendom not a kingdom. the system looks for the next male to be a lord there were no legitimate ones left so by declaring him king is as good as legitimizing his right to rule. Sansa offers nothing but Winterfell through marriage. she is entitled to nothing after being married. in other words her claim has been taken by the Lannisters and the Boltons. Arya makes more sense to be the next in line as she was a princess of Robb's Kingdom wheras Sansa was not she was barred by decree.
I think the reason Sansa says he's a good leader right after arguing with him is because of the way he explained himself. She even goes on to say that they respect him. The reason the respect him is because of the decisions he makes and the manner in which he makes them. He fully explained why he would not remove the Karstark's and Umber's ancestral homes and everyone in the hall who was touch-and-go with Sansa's argument was won over by Jon's explanation. I do agree Sansa should've not challenged Jon like this, especially not in front of everyone but I also think that because of that exchange everyone there can see Jon be challenged and see that he doesn't lose his shit like someone like Joffrey, but stands firm, keeps his ground and even better, explains why he does what he does.
Jon is gonna be a good leader because he's respectable and likeable like Ned was, but he's learned from the Stark's past mistakes.
As a side note, I don't think Jon was wrong with his decisions. For the same reason as to why Jon explained why.
I can dig this!
It would be really cool if Sansa is trying to sow fake dissent between her and Jon to give LF the impression that there's a rift between them.
I could see it. Sansa is DEFINITELY going to outsmart Baelish this year.
Sansa definitely stepped out of line questioning him in front of everyone, but her points WERE valid. She KNOWS not only that Littlefinger likes her, but she clearly also knows that he is attempting to divide them - she obviously doesn't let him make his attempt to divide them ("at the moment: peace and quiet" for example) as well as refusing him the last word (which was fkn great haha). I don't think it was to put on a show for Littlefinger however, I think she truly believed in her approach (which I agree is correct) but stepped out of line executing it.
The whole episode was bad writing to be honest. Just forced
I think Jon did the right thing. The North keeps older traditions. Keeping a family in the houses they've controlled for generations is the smart thing to do, it reassures ties to that house again keeping the North together
I've been reading the Prince by Macchiavelli. Light Reading. What Jon did with the Karstarks and the Umbers, was much smarter than Sansa's choice. It's better to give your enemy or rival a chance to prove themselves to you, because they will want to show that they are more loyal than your friends. A friend will betray you much faster than a rival. What's she wanted would have caused more drama. Alys and Ned will now be more loyal to Jon than the other vassals because of this chance.
I hated what Sansa did. She needs to fuckin chill. I loved this video, and I agree 100%.
Can't argue here! Excellent post, Olivia
You fucking nailed it, Olivia.
I don’t think either of them were right in the situation I think that they both were equally wrong
They should have talk about this before, but it seems that Jon wants to rule alone without any adviser.
I'm not chocked by the way they argu or how he shut her down at the meeting with the lords cause, this thing happens when there is no prep talk.
I'm chocked by the way he shuts her down after the meeting when she tries to explain herself. Jon seems clearly despising the simple idea of hearing her advice.
Sansa prove herself able to survive, get help and escape in a place where she was powerless in a place where his father and his staff loose their life. She gets the vale to help the north... She's smart, he needs her help. Unless he wants to end up with his own men taking turns stabbing him all over again !
No it doesn't you missed the point. She shouldn't challenge him in front of all the other lords. It makes him look stupid. She also compared the way he handled it to Joffreys ways. He had a right to shut her down afterwards.
I insist a wise king takes advices from his concil before making decisions.
Jon acts like Joffrey while doing everything on his own and yelling that his the king and his decision are final. Final without taking any advice form anyone.
This attitude got him killed once. Not sure Melissandre will be there next time.
Sansa became a political prisoner by her own actions and suffered less than her siblings. in fact it was her gender and her name that made her the safest person in Kings Landing due to the nature of politics. She is the key to the North by marriage, which is why Tyrion is married off to her to have a claim by blood on Winterfell when the rebellion is over. the same logic applied to the Boltons when Ramsey is married off to her to legitimize his rule through blood pact over the North. She is not a survivoir as she was more valuable alive than dead. her intelligence is a farce because she has none to speak of or she does not actually use it.
Here's my problem with Sansa, she doesn't know what it's like to be a commoner. Arya lived as Blind Beth, Weasel, Cat of the Cannals, etc. Dani, while she did lead the Dothraki, lived in an abandoned city for a good long while, and often lived among the slaves and commoners. Jon was a bastard and a brother of the Night's Watch, very few of whom were noblemen. Even Tryion lived with Bronn and Shay. Sansa doesn't know what it's like to be one of the small-folk, and therefore has less empathy for them than the previously mentioned people.
Preach!!!!! you are 100% right! Sansa is not only like her mom shes also like cersei now too. that combination is scary af and has me nervous. she needs to be team stark ffs and stay in her f in lane. the fact that hes king is enough reason for her to keep her mouth shut during an open meeting like that. even in semi private w just mel there w them at dinner Selyse said shireen needed the rod. stannis said no. selyse replied w..."as you command..."
see? That's how it should be forreal forreal. Sansa should really know better. smh :/
Omg I agree with you (TheBattProduction) Sansa was SO out of line, but I can't shake the feeling she did it to get Little Finger to think he can manipulate her, and she has a bigger plan sat in motion with that action. I think/hope she has seen Little Fingers way of manipulating people to get what he wants and now she's playing him. It's a risky game to play but maybe it pays of in the end :)
yeah great example with Daenarys there. i can't stand people defending sansa so hard and making this a gender thing. Stop giving Sansa so much credit. She's been Littlefinger's tool to get up the ladder. from Joffrey's murder sansa carried the potion = peter + olenna allience; flirted kissed sansa, jealous aunt, peter killed lyza, sansa saved peter = peter owns the Vale; sold off sansa to marry ramsay = peter + roose allience; next sansa vs jon, if sansa wins peter would probably marry her = peter controls the north.
We've been wanting to see "the revenge of sansa" but nope she just keeps falling for littlefinger's tricks.
such a nice comments to read now.
Tell them. We really need to quiet some of these Sansa defenders.
Just wandered up on this video randomly, very articulate work and I totally agree. Safe to say I'm gonna binge on some more of your video, and of course subscribed. Keep it up, haha.
Well thanks a lot my friend! I appreciate that
She should have talked with KING Jon snow behind scenes.. Under minding him in front of lords. Could show him as weak, and could lead to a revolt.
Exactly.
I think she intentionally did it to undermine him. little finger still has his hooks in her. thats going to change when she learns his role in neds death.